Iron Man as compared to...

[Iron_Stark]

Bishop knows less about history then cable, thats why the marauders didn't attack him.



Read over the thread if you want to know.


I did, and he's no villain!

Dr Doom and Osama Bin Magneto are villains

Tony isn't

[Eclips0]

Then you have a weird idea of what a hero is if you think a Hero commits federal crimes like murder.

[Iron_Stark]

Then you have a weird idea of what a hero is if you think a Hero commits federal crimes like murder.

Who has he murdered????

[Eclips0]

The people his creation and subordanites did.

And as I said his other crimes have been clearly laid out in these threads.

[Iron_Stark]

The people his creation and subordanites did.

And as I said his other crimes have been clearly laid out in these threads.


What issue did he create the Clone Thor in? From what I've read, Reed Richards and Hank Pym both created him.

What other people has Tony killed?

What other people have his subordinates killed?

Seriously, please write a list of people murdered by Tony Stark and his subordinates since the inception of the SHRA.

As I've said I've read through this entire thread, yesterday and this morning and there's nothing that I've seen to make Tony a villain, all I've read is hatred and nonsense spewed by blind Tony Haters.

[Eclips0]

In other words your pre-disposed to ignore his crimes.

He stole Thor's DNA, that in itself is both a violation and a crime. And he gave it to Reed and Hank. He is responsible.

[Arilou]

In other words your pre-disposed to ignore his crimes.

He stole Thor's DNA, that in itself is both a violation and a crime. And he gave it to Reed and Hank. He is responsible.

Actually, I don't think it is actually technically illegal to steal someone's DNA.

People leave it all around the place after all, now putting it on file or actually using it to create a clone would most likely be illegal.

But taking a strand of hair is hardly invasive enough for it to be illegal.

[Mark_S]

Actually, I don't think it is actually technically illegal to steal someone's DNA.

People leave it all around the place after all, now putting it on file or actually using it to create a clone would most likely be illegal.

But taking a strand of hair is hardly invasive enough for it to be illegal.

There are a lot of legal ways for Tony, Reed and Hank to get clear of Clor. None of them matter to Thor. I'm still waiting for his meeting with Reed and Hank. I suppose Sue, Johny and Ben will have to stick up for him again like they did in WWH.

Mark_S

[XPac]

As I've said I've read through this entire thread, yesterday and this morning and there's nothing that I've seen to make Tony a villain, all I've read is hatred and nonsense spewed by blind Tony Haters.

You're not reading the threads very carefully if you're missing the main arguements here.

The big things he did were mind controlling the Goblin to commit a terrorist bombings on US soil in Frontline to sway public opinion in his favor, and staging an assasination attempt on an Atlantean ambassador.

[Tobias Drake]

You're not reading the threads very carefully if you're missing the main arguements here.

The big things he did were mind controlling the Goblin to commit a terrorist bombings on US soil in Frontline to sway public opinion in his favor, and staging an assasination attempt on an Atlantean ambassador.

Also Clor which, while I don't agree makes him a murderer, I do agree was wrong at the very concept itself.

[Eclips0]

Toby,

The reason I have a different perspective on this is that I am really into Law. And under the law, if I created a clone or contributed to its making and sent it out under my control and it commited a murder then I am also guilty.

At the very least he is guilty of contributory negligence causing death.

[Tobias Drake]

Toby,

The reason I have a different perspective on this is that I am really into Law. And under the law, if I created a clone or contributed to its making and sent it out under my control and it commited a murder then I am also guilty.

At the very least he is guilty of contributory negligence causing death.

It malfunctioned. That would lay the blame at the feet of its programmer, which was Reed Richards. Even if I did agree that Clor killing Goliath was an act of murder and not one combatant killing another in the midst of battle, Stark would still only be to blame for Clor's existence, not for its programming, which he had nothing to do with.

[Eclips0]

It all ties in under the law, and stealing Thor's DNA in the first place would get him up in front of a congressional hearing, not to mention a federal court.

[XPac]

The thing that bugs me MOST about Clor is the overall incompetence of everyone involved.

They could shut Clor down with a single word. Instead, they stand around and do NOTHING after Clor kills Bill Foster. If not for Sue, Clor would have murdered some of the greatest heroes on earth while they were RETREAT. Reed shuts Clor down after the fight... that's real helpful.

If these people are really your friends act like it (like Sue did). Shut the dam thing off before he continues to murder good heroes who at this point are merely running for their freaking lives.

[Iron_Stark]

You're not reading the threads very carefully if you're missing the main arguements here.

The big things he did were mind controlling the Goblin to commit a terrorist bombings on US soil in Frontline to sway public opinion in his favor, and staging an assasination attempt on an Atlantean ambassador.

So he attacked a few Atlanteans, what's the big deal, it's like us attacking terrorists, who gives a ****? How many times have the Atlanteans attacked the US?

[Tobias Drake]

So he attacked a few Atlanteans, what's the big deal, it's like us attacking terrorists, who gives a ****? How many times have the Atlanteans attacked the US?

We've gone to war with a lot of nations that we're now on pretty good terms with. Just because we fought them before, doesn't mean we can't be peaceable now.

That said, it wasn't just Atlanteans, it was an Atlantean sleeper cell. That's grounds for suspicion and acting against them. Though perhaps not quite as extreme as was done.

[Gnarl]

Goliath died because he was a Giant.

I saw Clors programmers just uncomprehending as Clors Åsgardian genetics overrode their programming.

Anyway, I see Magneto and Tony as very close to each other. They are on the same path. Magneto has been on it longer, and walked futher down it. He has also stopped and realized what the scenery is like.

They are also similar in that they both actively try to avoid causing more damage than they believe they need to. And they have a feeling of noblesse obligee.
The only thing I can remember causing Magneto to kill one of his own mutant followers was causing unnecessary damage to a human during a mission.

Doom is a long step below them, because he cares less for collateral damage than either, and his goals are basically selfish. He wishes to rule.

Magneto and Tony honestly believe they are doing what is best for others.

The Punisher is a psycho. While he does try to avoid killing innocents,it is his definition of innocence that goes. And honestly, what are the odds hes had a 100% success rate on the guilty thing?

[Eclips0]

So he attacked a few Atlanteans, what's the big deal, it's like us attacking terrorists, who gives a ****? How many times have the Atlanteans attacked the US?

And your side talks about a slippery slope....

And so the only lives that matter are US ones? And plenty of them have been hurt as well, by the Clone, by the Thunderbolts, by fights Tony caused.

[Iron_Stark]

And your side talks about a slippery slope....

And so the only lives that matter are US ones? And plenty of them have been hurt as well, by the Clone, by the Thunderbolts, by fights Tony caused.

If there are sleeper cells of Al Qaeda in the US and we bomb the crap outta them, is anyone gonna care except for tree huggers?

Again, list people that have been KILLED by Tony, Clone Thor(not Bill Foster), and the Thunderbolts (when Tony was in comand of them)!

[Eclips0]

We have been over that, and yes he is resposible under the law for Goliaths death as well as Reed and Hank

And to answer an earlier question, it is illegal to steal your DNA and Cloning and other forms of genetixc experimentation like it are aklso illegal under US law.

[Tobias Drake]

I'm pretty sure cloning is left to state laws, not federal.

[Eclips0]

Id check on that, but the theft of DNA is illegal.

[Drdmx]

I'm pretty sure cloning is left to state laws, not federal.

Federal...

[Mark_S]

I think Tony taking Thor's DNA is in a way the same as Spymaster stealing the secrets of Tony's armor. Spymaster stole it, sold it and it was used to hurt people. Tony stole Thor's DNA, gave it to Reed and Hank to play with and it was used to hurt people.

Mark_S

[Drdmx]

So he attacked a few Atlanteans, what's the big deal, it's like us attacking terrorists, who gives a ****? How many times have the Atlanteans attacked the US?

If you were a politician, and said this at a public forum, I think half of your staff would resign.

Coincidently, Stark has set himself up as politician. That said, what's the difference between the Governments SHRA and the registration act set up for mutants a LOOOOOONG time ago? Even in the old X-men Cartoon. You saw how mutants were treated inhumanely. The presidential campaign ran on fear, sparked paranoia across the nation where mobs attacked anyone they SUSPECTED was a mutant. Whole cities such as Genosha were being built on the backs of Mutants (slavery). Innocent Mutants were killed just because they were different.

Thats my problem with alot of Stark Supporters. They have this "Stay the Course" disposition of turning a blind eye to everything that takes place as long as Stark reaches his goal. The answer isnt "Do nothing", I feel that its a made up solution by certain people to get their own agenda across. My solution is find a better way. I'm all for reaching the goal, but not at the cost of becoming just like the villains for which the the goal was created to deal with in the first place. I feel like instead of preventing a disastorous future, we seem to be ushering it in.

[LawGiver]

Technically Tony's clone killed a criminal. That's not against the law. It's a crappy thing to do b/c he stole a friends DNA and ended up killing a friend as a result of his and Reed's creation. But he killed a criminal, not illegal.

[Eclips0]

Yes it is against the law to clone someone and to steal someones DNA. And Thor is not a criminal. And yes it is illegal to kill a criminal without justification for lethal force which they did not have.

[Drdmx]

Technically Tony's clone killed a criminal. That's not against the law. It's a crappy thing to do b/c he stole a friends DNA and ended up killing a friend as a result of his and Reed's creation. But he killed a criminal, not illegal.

If an officer even fires his weapon, he has to go through all sorts of paper work and thorough investigation. Killing a criminal when there is an alternative can pretty much cost you your job and/or land you in jail yourself if you're an officer. So yeah, in this instance... it's illegal.

[LawGiver]

Yes it is against the law to clone someone and to steal someones DNA. And Thor is not a criminal. And yes it is illegal to kill a criminal without justification for lethal force which they did not have.

They did have justification, they were in a battle against the anti-reg group...which started the fight. If you care to remember, from an unbias side, Cap struck first. Iron Man was trying to be diplomatic. Also didn't Iron Man have authority to end the rebellion by any means neccesary? Seems like any means necessary would give him justification to clone a God. Also there is a law against cloning humans, Thor wasn't human, thus the law would not apply. Thor being a criminal or not has nothing to do w/ this.

[LawGiver]

If an officer even fires his weapon, he has to go through all sorts of paper work and thorough investigation. Killing a criminal when there is an alternative can pretty much cost you your job and/or land you in jail yourself if you're an officer. So yeah, in this instance... it's illegal.


Not during a fire fight.

[Drdmx]

Not during a fire fight.

Yes during a fire fight. Police officers are supposed to "shoot to wound" if I remember correctly. Somehow, blowing a hole through the criminals chest doesnt seem to fall in line with the law.

[LawGiver]

Yes during a fire fight. Police officers are supposed to "shoot to wound" if I remember correctly. Somehow, blowing a hole through the criminals chest doesnt seem to fall in line with the law.

Except when said criminal is out for blood. Please, reread the fight, the anti-reg's where out to end it there.

[Drdmx]

Except when said criminal is out for blood. Please, reread the fight, the anti-reg's where out to end it there.

lol right.

Because Cap and Goliath are known for their ruthless sadistic behavior and ripping their enemies apart.

[LawGiver]

lol right.

Because Cap and Goliath are known for their ruthless sadistic behavior and ripping their enemies apart.

Well no one would have really thought Cap would pull the stunt he did against Iron Man, but he did. There was justification for the action, it may not be crystal clear like some had hoped, but it's not criminal what Clor did.

I think I'll step out of this conservation, hte emotion seems to be what is dictating these Iron Man debates and that's a shame, b/c it'd be nice if everyone acted civil towards the opposite opinion.

[Drdmx]

Eh, I throw snippets of sarcasm out here and there because I find some of the logic humorous, but its never emotionally driven. It's not like I said I hated you.... I even gave you the good ol' "lol". Sorry if you took it the wrong way, and sorry if you feel you had to step away... unless you were the one getting angry. Ask old Tobias. We disagree probably on 90% of crap, but we can still be sarcastic without taking it personally. Man up!

Cap's actions against Iron Man werent lethal. I'll just do like you and say "It is criminal" though.

[mikekerr3]

They did have justification, they were in a battle against the anti-reg group...which started the fight. If you care to remember, from an unbias side, Cap struck first. Iron Man was trying to be diplomatic. Also didn't Iron Man have authority to end the rebellion by any means neccesary? Seems like any means necessary would give him justification to clone a God. Also there is a law against cloning humans, Thor wasn't human, thus the law would not apply. Thor being a criminal or not has nothing to do w/ this.

Thier is nobody who can authorise someone to use any means necessary, not even the congress and the president together. The is that inconvient thing called a Constituition.

Tony struck first two of Caps people where down already.

[mikekerr3]

What issue did he create the Clone Thor in? From what I've read, Reed Richards and Hank Pym both created him.

What other people has Tony killed?

What other people have his subordinates killed?

Seriously, please write a list of people murdered by Tony Stark and his subordinates since the inception of the SHRA.

As I've said I've read through this entire thread, yesterday and this morning and there's nothing that I've seen to make Tony a villain, all I've read is hatred and nonsense spewed by blind Tony Haters.

Atlanteans were killed by a hired assassain. You may think shooting of criminals from ambush is legal , the law does not. Marvels Civil War handbooks says they were hunting for Nitro.

[dabig2]

Well no one would have really thought Cap would pull the stunt he did against Iron Man, but he did. There was justification for the action, it may not be crystal clear like some had hoped, but it's not criminal what Clor did.


Disagree here. Clor's very existence was criminal. All acts he does is therefore illegal and not justified by any real or fictional law. Clor is not a cop.

[Eclips0]

They did have justification, they were in a battle against the anti-reg group...which started the fight. If you care to remember, from an unbias side, Cap struck first. Iron Man was trying to be diplomatic. Also didn't Iron Man have authority to end the rebellion by any means neccesary? Seems like any means necessary would give him justification to clone a God. Also there is a law against cloning humans, Thor wasn't human, thus the law would not apply. Thor being a criminal or not has nothing to do w/ this.

A mod has already told people to stop accusing people of personal bias.

And sorry but the police cannot issue a command that goes against the law. You are not allowed to use lethal force unless warrented and no you are not allowed to steal DNA or Clone people. The police have to obey those laws the same as everyone else.

[mikekerr3]

If there are sleeper cells of Al Qaeda in the US and we bomb the crap outta them, is anyone gonna care except for tree huggers?

Again, list people that have been KILLED by Tony, Clone Thor(not Bill Foster), and the Thunderbolts (when Tony was in comand of them)!

If a cop rolled a grenade inti a suspected sleeper cell of Al Qaeda on [B}US soil [B], instead of calling for back-up to make an arrest he would go to Jail. If by some chance the law was disreguarded entirely , he would be fired as you can't interogate a dead body.

Please tell me when that last time we did an air-strile inside an american city.

Those are murders

[spidervenom]

I think, tony is more like the hulk. doing what people think is wrong but is just misunderstood.

[Drdmx]

I think, tony is more like the hulk. doing what people think is wrong but is just misunderstood.

9 out of 10 times Hulk is attacked first.

Tony is acting out, where-as the Hulk (even though he really doesnt) has always wanted to just be left alone.

[Eclips0]

Stealing someones DNA, illegal cloning, Contributory murder.

These are not things you misunderstand these are crimes.

[Superbeast]

Magneto will do whatever it takes to ensure the safety and eventual dominance of mutantkind.

Doom will do whatever it takes for Latveria to be the most powerful country in the world and in turn make him the most powerful man on the planet.

Iron Man will do whatever it takes to protect America and his business empire, no matter what the cost financially or personally, if the end justify the means.

Punisher will do whatever it takes to wipe out a potential threat and kills the villains he faces so noone will ever have to protect anyone from them ever again.

[Eclips0]

I think this quote from DS9 sums it up:

"We don't put civilians at risk or even potentially at risk to save ourselves. Sometimes that means we lose a battle... and sometimes we lose our lives. But if you can't make that choice, you can't wear that uniform."

How I apply this to Tony would be that if he cannot win the fight as a hero without crossing the line and using criminal and immoral tactics, then he cannot call himself a hero. Sometimes heroes lose because they won't cross the lines that villains do, but thats exactly what makes them a hero.

[bulbasteve]

Stealing someones DNA, illegal cloning, Contributory murder.

These are not things you misunderstand these are crimes.

What, so when Thor says he isn't bound to mortal law you are fine with it but if Tony and them use the same reasoning you don't like it? :p

As for murder, let's even look at this from a different angle. Frontline showed that the media were there during the fight. Isn't the fact that noone was convicted of something actually witnessed by civilians proof alone that it wasn't illegal? So not only did marvel editorial say it was legally justified but in-universe it would have been impossible to have some sort of coverup. As such the only option is that it was perfectly legal.

[Tobias Drake]

I think this quote from DS9 sums it up:

"We don't put civilians at risk or even potentially at risk to save ourselves. Sometimes that means we lose a battle... and sometimes we lose our lives. But if you can't make that choice, you can't wear that uniform."

How I apply this to Tony would be that if he cannot win the fight as a hero without crossing the line and using criminal and immoral tactics, then he cannot call himself a hero. Sometimes heroes lose because they won't cross the lines that villains do, but thats exactly what makes them a hero.

Which I'm sure is comforting to all the people Carnage killed because nobody was willing to barbecue him. He may have massacred hundreds of people, but hey, at least Spider-Man can sleep at night.

[Eclips0]

What, so when Thor says he isn't bound to mortal law you are fine with it but if Tony and them use the same reasoning you don't like it? :p

As for murder, let's even look at this from a different angle. Frontline showed that the media were there during the fight. Isn't the fact that noone was convicted of something actually witnessed by civilians proof alone that it wasn't illegal? So not only did marvel editorial say it was legally justified but in-universe it would have been impossible to have some sort of coverup. As such the only option is that it was perfectly legal.

So a mob mentality makes murder legal now? And no I look at it from the angle of what a crime is under the law.

Which I'm sure is comforting to all the people Carnage killed because nobody was willing to barbecue him. He may have massacred hundreds of people, but hey, at least Spider-Man can sleep at night.

Thats better then becoming just like Carnage to stop him. Thats the slipperiest slope of all, once you cross one line, it becomes far easier to cross the rest.

[Mark_S]

Which I'm sure is comforting to all the people Carnage killed because nobody was willing to barbecue him. He may have massacred hundreds of people, but hey, at least Spider-Man can sleep at night.

How many other people had the chance to kill Carnage once he was in custody? Why didn't they do it?

Mark_S

[BYC]

I think this quote from DS9 sums it up:

"We don't put civilians at risk or even potentially at risk to save ourselves. Sometimes that means we lose a battle... and sometimes we lose our lives. But if you can't make that choice, you can't wear that uniform."

How I apply this to Tony would be that if he cannot win the fight as a hero without crossing the line and using criminal and immoral tactics, then he cannot call himself a hero. Sometimes heroes lose because they won't cross the lines that villains do, but thats exactly what makes them a hero.

And yet Sisko was willing to allow Garak to kill Senator Vreeack in order to bring the Romulans into the war against the Dominion. That's a CLEAR criminal act. He was gonna confess it in his personal log, and then he thought better of it and deleted the entire entry.

So is he not a hero then?

[Eclips0]

No, he is a soldier in a time of war, and I lost some respect for him as well in that episode.

[BYC]

And what about Worf when he destroyed the fake Klingon civilian ship? It was a setup, but we didn't know that until later. Sisko also clearly tells Worf that Worf was lucky it was a setup, or else Worf would have been convicted due to his lack of judgement.

[Eclips0]

Exactly, and yes although he was punished and admitted his crime so that redeemed him.

If they had Tony simply admit what he did and had him face a legal punishment, then I would see him as redeemed.

[bulbasteve]

So a mob mentality makes murder legal now? And no I look at it from the angle of what a crime is under the law.

Urich and them were there, he even yelled at Tony after it happened, that is hardly mob mentality.

Now, how does your opinion of what the law is stand up to A. Millar/Tom B. saying it was legally justifiable, B. In-universe him never being brought up on charges even though it was impossible to coverup. Your own opinion on how the law works for an experimental cyborg/clone run by SHIELD can hardly mean much since neither actually exists in the real world, as such we must go by what Marvel says the law is. You may not like it, and it may not even sync up with how our world works, but it's a fact that this is how it works.

Thats better then becoming just like Carnage to stop him. Thats the slipperiest slope of all, once you cross one line, it becomes far easier to cross the rest.

Do cops become gangsters when they have to kill someone? Come on man, that is the dumbest comic cliche of all. A silly reason to keep villains around even though they should have been killed 20 times over.

[Eclips0]

He was not brought up on charges because as we have seen the MU universe is corrupt.

And as I told you, if we become killers like the villains, we are only one step to becomming them ourselves.

Cops are different, they are legally allowed to kill and only if lethal force is justified.

[Drdmx]

Do cops become gangsters when they have to kill someone? Come on man, that is the dumbest comic cliche of all. A silly reason to keep villains around even though they should have been killed 20 times over.


If they are corrupt cops, they become gangsters.. yup. Villains are around because you are reading a comic, which are full of stupid cliches. C-O-M-I-C. Heroes and Villains. Hello? Is this thing on?!?!?

[bulbasteve]

But hey now superheroes ARE cops, so if Carnage wasn't all ya know...in the sun...he would totally go down next time he pulled some mass murdering!

[Eclips0]

Superheroes are not cops, they are not legally given the right to use lethal force unless it's in self-defence.

And next time Carnage did some murdering Spider-man or someone else would find a way to take him down without crossing the line the way they always have.

[Alan2099]

Which I'm sure is comforting to all the people Carnage killed because nobody was willing to barbecue him. He may have massacred hundreds of people, but hey, at least Spider-Man can sleep at night.

So, I take it your hero is the Punisher, right? He's the only one I know of that makes sure nobody he faces is ever a threat to anyone again.

Of course, to many people there's not much difference between him and Carnage anyway.

[Jake V]

Superheroes are not cops, they are not legally given the right to use lethal force unless it's in self-defence.

And next time Carnage did some murdering Spider-man or someone else would find a way to take him down without crossing the line the way they always have.

The sad thing is that the "next time carnage did some murdering" has become a given. What kind of hero stands by and accepts that?

[Eclips0]

A hero that won't cross a line and become Carnage.

[Jake V]

A hero that won't cross a line and become Carnage.

Oh good, I wasn't aware that Carnage was known for killing only mass serial killers.

For some reason, I was under the impression that Carnage WAS a serial killer with an alien costume that always escapes from whatever prison he was put in and always intends to kill innocent people whenever he gets the opportunity.

And I guess a true hero is someone who just allows the serial killer with an alien costume to continue to kill.

Silly me.

[Drdmx]

Carnage comes back cause he's a re-curring villain. Similar to Megatron always being a nemesis to Optimus. SKeletor to He-Man. Cobra Commander to Duke, and such....

Mega (Villainous Voice): I'll be back Prime!

Optimus (Heroic Voice): And we'll be here to stop you.

Now you wouldnt question Primes heroism right?


Murder is just something that writers/creators did to "up the ante". After the 80's the same old good guy wins at the last second cliche got a bit played out. It's similar with creators nowaday and their attempts at "realism".


It ulimately comes down to what's your expectation out of a comic book. Fictional characters with super powers performing heroic acts, or real life related soap opera type drama. It's pretty much the basis of why people disagree so "pationately" on these forums.

[Eclips0]

Oh good, I wasn't aware that Carnage was known for killing only mass serial killers.

For some reason, I was under the impression that Carnage WAS a serial killer with an alien costume that always escapes from whatever prison he was put in and always intends to kill innocent people whenever he gets the opportunity.

And I guess a true hero is someone who just allows the serial killer with an alien costume to continue to kill.

Silly me.

If thats what it takes not to cross the line, then yes if necessary.

[Jake V]

Mega (Villainous Voice): I'll be back Prime!

Optimus (Heroic Voice): And we'll be here to stop you.

Now you wouldnt question Primes heroism right?


Not Prime's heroism.

But when the dialog goes like this:

Carnage: "I'll be back to slaughter another dozen people in a month!"

Spider-Man: "And I'll be sure to punch you really hard when you do"

I really sort of question the heroism.

[Brian M.]

If thats what it takes not to cross the line, then yes if necessary.

So you sacrifice innocent lives just so you don't kill the killer and cross that line?

I'm sorry I fail to see how that makes someone a hero.

[Drdmx]

Not Prime's heroism.

But when the dialog goes like this:

Carnage: "I'll be back to slaughter another dozen people in a month!"

Spider-Man: "And I'll be sure to punch you really hard when you do"

I really sort of question the heroism.

Yeah but why? Isnt it heroic to step up and do it again? Why not question the effectiveness of the people who are supposed to be confining the villain instead? "Let me put this bullet in your head so you dont come back" doesnt strike me as very heroic either.

[Jake V]

Yeah but why? Isnt it heroic to step up and do it again? Why not question the effectiveness of the people who are supposed to be confining the villain instead? "Let me put this bullet in your head so you dont come back" doesnt strike me as very heroic either.

It would if you were a potential next victim.

Allowing the murderer to continue to murder really shows how high "innocent life" is on the "hero's" list of priorities.

[Eclips0]

So you sacrifice innocent lives just so you don't kill the killer and cross that line?

I'm sorry I fail to see how that makes someone a hero.

Because how we live our lives is as or more important then whether we live them.

I happen to believe that morals and values are worth dying for.

[Drdmx]

It would if you were a potential next victim.

Nah. It would give you the image of some what of a loose cannon. Sort of like how the general MU Population views The Hulk (even though he doesnt kill anyone).

"Hey look, there goes that guy who kills all his enemies!"

Where do you draw the line? When does your agenda include stopping Jay-walking offenders and people who litter? Bastards.

[Tobias Drake]

Because how we live our lives is as or more important then whether we live them.

I happen to believe that morals and values are worth dying for.

But are yours worth allowing other people to die for?

[Jake V]

Because how we live our lives is as or more important then whether we live them.

I happen to believe that morals and values are worth dying for.

Just as long as it's innocent people unrelated to you that are doing the dying, right?

[Drdmx]

It would if you were a potential next victim.

Allowing the murderer to continue to murder really shows how high "innocent life" is on the "hero's" list of priorities.


No fair you edited~!

They arent allowing it though. You act as if Spiderman is sliding Carnage the key every month so that he can unlock his jail cell. Spiderman is simply stopping the villain, not encouraging him.

[Tobias Drake]

Nah. It would give you the image of some what of a loose cannon. Sort of like how the general MU Population views The Hulk (even though he doesnt kill anyone).

"Hey look, there goes that guy who kills all his enemies!"

Where do you draw the line? When does your agenda include stopping Jay-walking offenders and people who litter? Bastards.

I'd draw the line somewhere around the body count.

[Alan2099]

I really sort of question the heroism.

How heroic do you think Punisher's "I'll kill anyone I feel like, as long as they're criminal scum," is ?

[mikekerr3]

Nah. It would give you the image of some what of a loose cannon. Sort of like how the general MU Population views The Hulk (even though he doesnt kill anyone).

"Hey look, there goes that guy who kills all his enemies!"

Where do you draw the line? When does your agenda include stopping Jay-walking offenders and people who litter? Bastards.

The real villians are the people who keep letting th killers go free.

[Eclips0]

Yes to both, I would hope that they feel the same way.

[Eclips0]

The real villians are the people who keep letting th killers go free.

Yeah I've noticed that in comics, they must have the single worst jailing system ever.

[Drdmx]

The real villians are the people who keep letting th killers go free.

Right. The ones. who. let. him. go. free.

This includes

the ones who break him out of jail
the ones who take on the task of containment and fail



This does not include

the ones who stop him just because he got out of jail.

[Tobias Drake]

The real villians are the people who keep letting th killers go free.

But sometimes containment just isn't possible. I've seen Carnage break out of a heavily-secured S.H.I.E.L.D. transport very shortly after being captured. By his own admission, the only reason he ever allows himself to remain in captivity is because he likes to break out when it's surprising and people have forgotten about him.

Hypothetical scenario, let's say a Nova Prime (not our Richard Ryder, he would never do that, but just hypothetical) went nuts and started blowing up planets. How would you apprehend him? What possible prison could hold him?

On some rare occasions, there are forces in the MU that simply cannot be contained by standard methods of criminal apprehension.

[Jake V]

How heroic do you think Punisher's "I'll kill anyone I feel like, as long as they're criminal scum," is ?

Not very.

But then, the Punisher isn't a superhero.

[Drdmx]

I'd draw the line somewhere around the body count.

Ok. Thousands of people die from cancer because the ozone layer is too thin. Zone Layer is thin cause of polution. Start executing litter-bugs?

[Tobias Drake]

Ok. Thousands of people die from cancer because the ozone layer is too thin. Zone Layer is thin cause of polution. Start executing litter-bugs?

Alright then, I'd draw the line somewhere around the direct body count.

[Brian M.]

Because how we live our lives is as or more important then whether we live them.

I happen to believe that morals and values are worth dying for.

Yea I do too. It's in my morals and my values that if I get the chance to save an innocent life by taking the life of someone who is trying to take said innocent life, I'm pulling that trigger and I don't feel bad in the morning. Not one bit. I recently got a handgun and I can promise you if the time came where I had to pull that trigger to save someone else, I'm pulling it and I'm pulling it again for good measure. It would in no way comprimse the morals or values that I define myself by.

[Eclips0]

Well being a hero means you keep trying without crossing that line.

[Drdmx]

Alright then, I'd draw the line somewhere around the direct body count.

So people who just HAVE cancer or have already gotten it? Cancers a mass murderer you know. You have to take anyone who polutes out quick because obviously they are letting the cancer walk free.

[Eclips0]

Yea I do too. It's in my morals and my values that if I get the chance to save an innocent life by taking the life of someone who is trying to take said innocent life, I'm pulling that trigger and I don't feel bad in the morning. Not one bit. I recently got a handgun and I can promise you if the time came where I had to pull that trigger to save someone else, I'm pulling it and I'm pulling it again for good measure. It would in no way comprimse the morals or values that I define myself by.

And the law may agree with that in some cases. But otherwise you would go to jail.

[Brian M.]

Well being a hero means you keep trying without crossing that line.

Your right. But sometimes that line has to be crossed. You have to take lethal action in order to protect those you set out to protect.

[Brian M.]

And the law may agree with that in some cases. But otherwise you would go to jail.

Well yea, if I just go out and start shooting people...then I would hope someone else pops me in the head.

[Alan2099]

In Carnage's case, he's not been held in a prison except in that horrible New Avengers arc where Bendis got pretty much everything about him wrong anyway. He's held in an asylum, which means somewhere in the legal system, they decided that Carnage shouldn't receive the Death penalty.

Spider-man is helping the law enforcement agencies, not taking their place. He doesn't set himself up as judge, jury, and executioner. He just helps bring the people that break the law in.

There's your system at work. Who do you blame? The lawyers? The judge? The jury? The laws themselves?

[Brian M.]

So people who just HAVE cancer or have already gotten it? Cancers a mass murderer you know. You have to take anyone who polutes out quick because obviously they are letting the cancer walk free.


You really taking this analogy way too far.

[Eclips0]

Your right. But sometimes that line has to be crossed. You have to take lethal action in order to protect those you set out to protect.

No it doesn't because once you cross that line you often keep crossing it or others, it is the ultimate slippery slope.

[Drdmx]

You really taking this analogy way too far.

Yeah, what makes it tons more wierd is that I'm applying their logic.

[Tobias Drake]

So people who just HAVE cancer or have already gotten it? Cancers a mass murderer you know. You have to take anyone who polutes out quick because obviously they are letting the cancer walk free.

Yegads, you're right! I must write my congressman about this! "War on Cancer"!

All kidding aside, I suppose it would be tricky to make an absolute definition. It would have to be a case-by-case basis.

The definition of insanity is when you do the same thing over and over, expecting a different result. When the system fails to hold a psychotic, super-powered mass-murderer such as Carnage, there are two ways to approach it: you can continue to try the same thing, knowing that it has proven repeatedly to be an exercise in futility and that, for every failure, more and more people die, or you can opt for a different solution.

[Brian M.]

No it doesn't because once you cross that line you often keep crossing it or others, it is the ultimate slippery slope.

Says who? You? You can cross back over a line once crossed, that's the good thing about a line, it's not a wall. I killed someone in order to save a life, that doesn't mean that if my house gets broken into I'm shooting to kill b/c I did it once. You don't become a cold blooded killer once you take a life.

[Eclips0]

Then the state can choose to execute him under the law.

[Tobias Drake]

In Carnage's case, he's not been held in a prison except in that horrible New Avengers arc where Bendis got pretty much everything about him wrong anyway. He's held in an asylum, which means somewhere in the legal system, they decided that Carnage shouldn't receive the Death penalty.

Spider-man is helping the law enforcement agencies, not taking their place. He doesn't set himself up as judge, jury, and executioner. He just helps bring the people that break the law in.

There's your system at work. Who do you blame? The lawyers? The judge? The jury? The laws themselves?

He was serving 13 life sentences before he even got the symbiote. The man deserved to die long before he even became a supervillain in the first place. Clearly, the MU New York is dead-set against the death penalty.

[Eclips0]

Says who? You? You can cross back over a line once crossed, that's the good thing about a line, it's not a wall. I killed someone in order to save a life, that doesn't mean that if my house gets broken into I'm shooting to kill b/c I did it once. You don't become a cold blooded killer once you take a life.

Not necessarily but might, and under the law there is allowances for self-defense.

[Brian M.]

Then the state can choose to execute him under the law.

When the state chooses to do that and they wait years and eventually he breaks out, I hope there is someone there to kill him. We're still talking Carnage right?

[Brian M.]

Not necessarily but might, and under the law there is allowances for self-defense.

Yea, those laws that penalize self-defense are crap imo. You attempt to take a life or you do take a life, you forefit yours.

[Eclips0]

Wait a tick, Why would they wait years?

[Drdmx]

Yegads, you're right! I must write my congressman about this! "War on Cancer"!

All kidding aside, I suppose it would be tricky to make an absolute definition. It would have to be a case-by-case basis.

The definition of insanity is when you do the same thing over and over, expecting a different result. When the system fails to hold a psychotic, super-powered mass-murderer such as Carnage, there are two ways to approach it: you can continue to try the same thing, knowing that it has proven repeatedly to be an exercise in futility and that, for every failure, more and more people die, or you can opt for a different solution.

You said it bub, you're just applying it wrong. Its not the hero(s) stopping him that needs to change, its how he's contained. The Hulk isnt a mass murderer, how come we shot him off into space and Carnage gets to sit in a nice supposed "Carnage Proof" cell? Oh yeah because the Hulk would just escape if we tried to confine him. ....... wait

[Brian M.]

Wait a tick, Why would they wait years?

Come, you know taht when your sentenced to death you sit there for years, waiting. You don't get sentenced and then the next day they cook you like bacon.

[Eclips0]

Yea, those laws that penalize self-defense are crap imo. You attempt to take a life or you do take a life, you forefit yours.

Then move to a state that allows for border self-defense.

[Brian M.]

Then move to a state that allows for border self-defense.

I'm in one. Eventually I'd like to see the Texas laws be enacted nationally.

[BYC]

Honestly, the entire Carnage character and concept sucks. To be fair however, villains in comics don't usually die nowadays. And it often makes superheroes look stupid when these murdering psychopaths keep escaping and killing more people.

This is one of the reasons I tend not to examine comics too deeply. Heroes are great and all, but that's the comic book work. The real world has to exist with different rules.

[Eclips0]

Come, you know taht when your sentenced to death you sit there for years, waiting. You don't get sentenced and then the next day they cook you like bacon.

They should. Do you know that in St Lucia they shoot you right in the courtroom at the conclusion of the trial? There's a word for that, efficiency!

[Tobias Drake]

Wait a tick, Why would they wait years?

Bureaucracy takes time, and not all supervillains are patient enough to wait.

[Eclips0]

I'm in one. Eventually I'd like to see the Texas laws be enacted nationally.

I'd vote for that.

[Drdmx]

Honestly, the entire Carnage character and concept sucks. To be fair however, villains in comics don't usually die nowadays. And it often makes superheroes look stupid when these murdering psychopaths keep escaping and killing more people.

This is one of the reasons I tend not to examine comics too deeply. Heroes are great and all, but that's the comic book work. The real world has to exist with different rules.

Exactly! I agree whole-heartedly. It's just a comic~~~~~~~~~~`

[Eclips0]

Bureaucracy takes time, and not all supervillains are patient enough to wait.

Ending the bureaucracy would solve that problem.

[Tobias Drake]

You said it bub, you're just applying it wrong. Its not the hero(s) stopping him that needs to change, its how he's contained. The Hulk isnt a mass murderer, how come we shot him off into space and Carnage gets to sit in a nice supposed "Carnage Proof" cell? Oh yeah because the Hulk would just escape if we tried to confine him. ....... wait

With the MU Earth's luck, if we shot Carnage into space we'd accidentally trigger an interstellar war. :p

That's the problem with containment; sometimes the villain is too powerful to contain, and isn't content to sit around and wait while bureaucracy votes to kill him.

[Eclips0]

And we come to another crime of Tony's, kiddnapping Bruce Banner, Unlawful Confinement, illegal deportation of a US Citizen.

[Drdmx]

With the MU Earth's luck, if we shot Carnage into space we'd accidentally trigger an interstellar war. :p

That's the problem with containment; sometimes the villain is too powerful to contain, and isn't content to sit around and wait while bureaucracy votes to kill him.

haha!

Seriously though. If containment is the problem for Carnage, why not do him like the Hulk and shoot him into Space? As a matter of fact, that would make a spectacular "What if?" He would thrive in an environment like Sakaar.

[Brian M.]

They should. Do you know that in St Lucia they shoot you right in the courtroom at the conclusion of the trial? There's a word for that, efficiency!

Ending the bureaucracy would solve that problem.

See, you and I agree on something.

And we come to another crime of Tony's, kiddnapping Bruce Banner, Unlawful Confinement, illegal deportation of a US Citizen.

It was technically unlawful for what they did, but this goes back to them thinking it was for the greater good to get a threat like the Hulk outta the area.

[Tobias Drake]

Ending the bureaucracy would solve that problem.

The only way to end the bureaucracy is to end the trial system, end the prison system, and have the arresting official (or, in this case, the superhero) execute every criminal on apprehension. And I think we can all agree that would be a bit overboard. Like, so far overboard it's back on dry land.

[Alan2099]

View Post
Honestly, the entire Carnage character and concept sucks. To be fair however, villains in comics don't usually die nowadays.
Personally, I like the character, just because he's so different from the typical Spider-foes. He's more like a character from a slasher flick than a member of the Sinister 6 or anything.

And it often makes superheroes look stupid when these murdering psychopaths keep escaping and killing more people.
There's two parts to the problem here.

The first part, villians are far too willing to kill nowadays. Now granted, killing people itself isn't a bad thing for a villian to do from a story point of view, but it seems that everybody wants to up the ante. Every writer want to make the character a bit more twisted and with a bit higher body count than the last writer did.

The second part is that writer's often don't know when to NOT use characters. Carnage would have been perfect if he'd went out after the events of Maximum Carnage. But as they don't want to waste a good villian, they keep capturing him and locking him back up.

Let's make that three points. (Sorry.) The third is that not all villians are supposed to be locked up. It's tricky, but with some villians, you need to "kill" them or isolate them, leave the story in a way that the villians are obviously beat in a way "where they won't threaten anybody ever again." That way it doesn't look as bad when the villian breaks out.

This is one of the reasons I tend not to examine comics too deeply. Heroes are great and all, but that's the comic book work. The real world has to exist with different rules.
This I'll agree with 100%. Too bad marvel seems to have lost sight of this.

[Eclips0]

See, you and I agree on something.



It was technically unlawful for what they did, but this goes back to them thinking it was for the greater good to get a threat like the Hulk outta the area.

Greater good is not more important then keeping your morals and not commiting crimes.

[Eclips0]

The only way to end the bureaucracy is to end the trial system, end the prison system, and have the arresting official (or, in this case, the superhero) execute every criminal on apprehension. And I think we can all agree that would be a bit overboard. Like, so far overboard it's back on dry land.

No it just means we put limits on the appeal process, one and your done.

[Tobias Drake]

haha!

Seriously though. If containment is the problem for Carnage, why not do him like the Hulk and shoot him into Space? As a matter of fact, that would make a spectacular "What if?" He would thrive in an environment like Sakaar.

That would.

Now that the MU is entertaining alternatives to simply throwing supervillains in jail and hoping they don't get out, such as space exile or alternate dimensions, it wouldn't be too hard for Reed to crack open some barren, empty dimension, shove Carnage in, and shut down the portal. No muss, no fuss, and no Carnage. Though I still think it's a really expensive method of going out of one's way to avoid having to kill someone; Hulk merited exile treatment because they were sending him to a peaceful, green paradise where he would live out the rest of his days in peace and no one would ever bother him again. I don't think Carnage merits quite the same generosity.

[Brian M.]

Greater good is not more important then keeping your morals and not commiting crimes.

While I hate the phrase greater good b/c I think it's a socialist phrase, I think it's applied differently here when we're talking about saving lives. It comes back the that whole, if you had a time machine and could go back in time before Hitler got started and kill him, would you? He hadn't commited any crimes or killed anyone yet, but you know eventually he would. Would it be right to kill him? The same principal I believe was applied to the Hulk. You knew he'd lose his mind again and go crazy, do you try and prevent it or go reactive?

[Eclips0]

While I hate the phrase greater good b/c I think it's a socialist phrase, I think it's applied differently here when we're talking about saving lives. It comes back the that whole, if you had a time machine and could go back in time before Hitler got started and kill him, would you? He hadn't commited any crimes or killed anyone yet, but you know eventually he would. Would it be right to kill him? The same principal I believe was applied to the Hulk. You knew he'd lose his mind again and go crazy, do you try and prevent it or go reactive?

How a life is lived is more important to a hero then the life itself.

[Tobias Drake]

How a life is lived is more important to a hero then the life itself.

I passionately disagree.

[Eclips0]

Well I believe values and priciples are worth dying for.

[Alan2099]

I passionately disagree.

You aren't a hero.

[Brian M.]

Well I believe values and priciples are worth dying for.

See now we're just going in circles and when that begins the debate pretty much is over. It was fun though. Have a good night.

[Tobias Drake]

You aren't a hero.

I'm not? When did this happen? :confused: I was under the impression that I was Batman. HAS MY LIFE BEEN A LIE?! :eek:

[BYC]

Personally, I like the character, just because he's so different from the typical Spider-foes. He's more like a character from a slasher flick than a member of the Sinister 6 or anything.

There's two parts to the problem here.

The first part, villians are far too willing to kill nowadays. Now granted, killing people itself isn't a bad thing for a villian to do from a story point of view, but it seems that everybody wants to up the ante. Every writer want to make the character a bit more twisted and with a bit higher body count than the last writer did.

The second part is that writer's often don't know when to NOT use characters. Carnage would have been perfect if he'd went out after the events of Maximum Carnage. But as they don't want to waste a good villian, they keep capturing him and locking him back up.

Let's make that three points. (Sorry.) The third is that not all villians are supposed to be locked up. It's tricky, but with some villians, you need to "kill" them or isolate them, leave the story in a way that the villians are obviously beat in a way "where they won't threaten anybody ever again." That way it doesn't look as bad when the villian breaks out.

Good points, and I agree with them. Carnage is a well-known mass murderer. There's really no reason to keep him around. After Maximum Carnage especially (and I bought that entire thing...). Superman is my favorite superhero, but his stance of no-killing affecting the entire comics industry is disappointing. Captain America, IMO, should be willing to kill, same with Thor. Iron Man might be less willing, since his background isn't a warrior or soldier, but he's probably willing to do what it takes to make sure people are safe (especially his current portrayal).

This I'll agree with 100%. Too bad marvel seems to have lost sight of this.

To be fair, both DC and Marvel have their own problems, and the hardcore fans on each side refuses to see the problems within their own universe. I saw somebody's quote on these very forums, and it was something like:

DC fans believe in the purity of the golden and silver age, which haven't been true in 20 years. Marvel fans believe in progress and character development, which haven't been true in 20 years.

So true.

[Drdmx]

That would.

Now that the MU is entertaining alternatives to simply throwing supervillains in jail and hoping they don't get out, such as space exile or alternate dimensions, it wouldn't be too hard for Reed to crack open some barren, empty dimension, shove Carnage in, and shut down the portal. No muss, no fuss, and no Carnage. Though I still think it's a really expensive method of going out of one's way to avoid having to kill someone; Hulk merited exile treatment because they were sending him to a peaceful, green paradise where he would live out the rest of his days in peace and no one would ever bother him again. I don't think Carnage merits quite the same generosity.

Ah but there-in lies the problem. Here you have a solution where you dont have to make that hard decision of becoming like the bad guy. You simply shoot him off and you're done. Making the decision of "offing" him simply cause it's less expensive comes off as..... villainous.

[Eclips0]

I'm not? When did this happen? :confused: I was under the impression that I was Batman. HAS MY LIFE BEEN A LIE?! :eek:

No just that if your willing to cross a line to stop a villain you would not be a hero.

But don't worry "No ones goona hurt you. Not while I'm around. No ones goona harm you Toby. Not while I'm around."

[Tobias Drake]

Ah but there-in lies the problem. Here you have a solution where you dont have to make that hard decision of becoming like the bad guy. You simply shoot him off and you're done. Making the decision of "offing" him simply cause it's less expensive comes off as..... villainous.

True...and the chance of it coming back to bite you in the arse is minimal...I can't see Carnage getting the allies he would need to return to Earth.

Ooh, next Annihilation! The Skrulls pick up chunks and pieces out of Earth's orbit, curiously, and bring them back to what remains of their empire, still rebuilding from the last Annihilation, to study. What they don't know is that they picked up Carnage.

A few weeks later, back on Earth, the Secret Invasion has turned into all-out genocidal war, and we're left scratching our heads and trying to figure out why the Skrulls hate us with such a violent passion unlike any they've had before.

[mikekerr3]

While I hate the phrase greater good b/c I think it's a socialist phrase, I think it's applied differently here when we're talking about saving lives. It comes back the that whole, if you had a time machine and could go back in time before Hitler got started and kill him, would you? He hadn't commited any crimes or killed anyone yet, but you know eventually he would. Would it be right to kill him? The same principal I believe was applied to the Hulk. You knew he'd lose his mind again and go crazy, do you try and prevent it or go reactive?

Killing Hitler is a good example. that could have rsulted in the Germans having sane leadership in the Nazi party. If hitler had not of been around the nazi's still would have been. They were dangerous enough with a leader who thought he was smarter than the Generals and wasn't. By 1940 Hitler was the single most important thing the Allies had going for him. He was evil, a fifted speaker and politician but his only good point was he was a total doofus as a general.

Its safer to do the moral thing keeping your soul intact, any other course can lead you to doing more harm than what your fighting.

I do not believe that evil can serve the greater good.

[Eclips0]

That still does not justify the heros crossing a line and killing Carnage.

[Alan2099]

True...and the chance of it coming back to bite you in the arse is minimal...I can't see Carnage getting the allies he would need to return to Earth.

Ooh, next Annihilation! The Skrulls pick up chunks and pieces out of Earth's orbit, curiously, and bring them back to what remains of their empire, still rebuilding from the last Annihilation, to study. What they don't know is that they picked up Carnage.

A few weeks later, back on Earth, the Secret Invasion has turned into all-out genocidal war, and we're left scratching our heads and trying to figure out why the Skrulls hate us with such a violent passion unlike any they've had before.
That has potential. I was actually hoping to see Blaastar end up breaking open the Negative Zone prison, and *BAM* he's got a huge collection of superpowered individuals that have a grudge with the US government. Instant army.

[Brian M.]

I just don't see how someone could live w/ that knowledge that they could have saved lives, that they could have prevents something evil from taking place. If your a good person, your still gonna be a good person after the act.

[Eclips0]

No your not because you crossed the line, a good person could sleep at night knowing that they didn't act like the villain.

[Brian M.]

No your not because you crossed the line, a good person could sleep at night knowing that they didn't act like the villain.

How could someone sleep at night knowing they could have saved lives but decided not too?

[Eclips0]

Because although those lives were lost, what they stood for was not.

[Brian M.]

Because although those lives were lost, what they stood for was not.

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. We can agree that this is basic rights, right? Do you not give those back to someone by saving their life from a murderer?

[Eclips0]

I also believe you cheapen them if your a hero by crossing that line. Keep in mind I am not talking about everyday life, I am talking about a hero.

[Brian M.]

I also believe you cheapen them if your a hero by crossing that line. Keep in mind I am not talking about everyday life, I am talking about a hero.

I know. A hero is someone who should examplify these rights, these morals that everyone deserves a fair shot living their life to the fullest. How does a hero represent these rights if he allows others to sniff out another's?

[Eclips0]

Because what he exemplifys is that you never cross a line, no matter the cost.

[Brian M.]

Because what he exemplifys is that you never cross a line, no matter the cost.

Alright, I'm just gonna have to disagree.

[Eclips0]

I think your more of a fan of the Wolverine or Punisher type of character, a sort of "non-hero".

[Will.S]

No your not because you crossed the line, a good person could sleep at night knowing that they didn't act like the villain.
Ok New Avengers Breakout, let's say Carnage is about to kill Jessica Drew and Luke Cage in the Raft and Sentry takes him up into space and rips him up like paper. Had Sentry let him live and Carnage killed again how does Sentry sleep any easier knowing that those deaths are on his conscience?

Sure he doesn't commit the actual crime, but lets say he hears that a family was killed by Carnage the next day his first thought in his head certainly isn't going to be "Man, I'm sure glad Carnage is on the loose!".

[bulbasteve]

Wasn't this particular Carnage example about Firestar not killing him in Maximum Carnage? This was a particularly extreme example remember, he slaughtered people in a count up to the hundreds in a period of days with noone able to stop him. I mean geez I can understand a superheroes bar being high about killing someone, but that is just absured.

[Eclips0]

Ok New Avengers Breakout, let's say Carnage is about to kill Jessica Drew and Luke Cage in the Raft and Sentry takes him up into space and rips him up like paper. Had Sentry let him live and Carnage killed again how does Sentry sleep any easier knowing that those deaths are on his conscience?

Sure he doesn't commit the actual crime, but lets say he hears that a family was killed by Carnage the next day his first thought in his head certainly isn't going to be "Man, I'm sure glad Carnage is on the loose!".

Because he knows that to kill Carnage would've been more wrong.

[Brian M.]

I think your more of a fan of the Wolverine or Punisher type of character, a sort of "non-hero".

I like Punisher, I like the grey area characters, but I also like the out right hero, like Cyclops or Captain America. It varies.

[Tobias Drake]

Wasn't this particular Carnage example about Firestar not killing him in Maximum Carnage? This was a particularly extreme example remember, he slaughtered people in a count up to the hundreds in a period of days with noone able to stop him. I mean geez I can understand a superheroes bar being high about killing someone, but that is just absured.

This time it was just Carnage in general, but that is an excellent point.

[Eclips0]

No she acted like a hero and refused to cross that line.

[Will.S]

Because he knows that to kill Carnage would've been more wrong.
Right, and your line of thinking would be similar to mine yet I wouldn't call say a cop a villain or say that he crossed the line for say.....killing someone who's about to kill me.

If he were a deeply religious and moral guy he'd had that death on his conscious for as long as he lived but when put in situations like that where you have to choose one life over another, things get much more ambiguous.

[Eclips0]

A cop is different, the law allows him to use lethal force when justified. And a cop is not the same as a comic book hero who is iconic in nature.

[Tobias Drake]

Right, and your line of thinking would be similar to mine yet I wouldn't call say a cop a villain for say killing someone who's about to kill me.

If he were a deeply religious and moral guy he'd had that death on his conscious for as long as he lived but when put in situations like that where you have to choose one life over another, things get much more ambiguous.

Indeed. And when you have to choose one life over hundreds, the ambiguity clears up pretty fast in my opinion.

[Eclips0]

Thats fine, but then you would not be a Comic Book Hero.

[BYC]

Thats fine, but then you would not be a Comic Book Hero.
That pretty much stops every "hero" in comic books. Even Superman has killed before. Pretty sure Captain America has killed before too.

[Eclips0]

No many heroes have not commited murder. And current supes has not as him killing Zod has been retconned.

[Will.S]

Thats fine, but then you would not be a Comic Book Hero.
A comic book hero, however iconic does not have to be a perfect person.

Marvel is founded upon this very fact and Iron Man exemplifies this by several magnitudes.

[bulbasteve]

A cop is different, the law allows him to use lethal force when justified. And a cop is not the same as a comic book hero who is iconic in nature.

Superheroes are cops now, that was part of the point of CW!

How is "iconic" a reason? They were all based on pulp heroes who killed people all the time, heck in Batmans first few issues he killed people. Westerns, detective novels, thrillers? They all killed the badguys. I'm trying to think of iconic fictional character aside from superheroes who make it a rule not to kill...it's pretty tough!

[Eclips0]

And thats why I dissagree with the SHRA.

And as I said there are many heroes that will not kill or break the laws to wins their battles.

[bulbasteve]

And thats why I dissagree with the SHRA.

And as I said there are many heroes that will not kill or break the laws to wins their battles.

Have you already forgotten Zachs post today about how every superhero breaks like 10 different laws in any issue? So yes name me a non-registered hero who doesn't break the law to win their battles! (since of course registered heroes got the badge now :)) Save for I don't know Dr. Strange or someone who is isn't really a superhero...

[Eclips0]

Actually they don't we already covered that.

[Iron_Stark]

That pretty much stops every "hero" in comic books. Even Superman has killed before. Pretty sure Captain America has killed before too.

Captain America has killed plenty of Nazi scum when he was toting his machine gun in WWII

[dabig2]

Have you already forgotten Zachs post today about how every superhero breaks like 10 different laws in any issue? So yes name me a non-registered hero who doesn't break the law to win their battles! (since of course registered heroes got the badge now :)) Save for I don't know Dr. Strange or someone who is isn't really a superhero...

Aren't like several laws broken and several crimes against humanity committed over at Camp Hammond and Thunderbolt mountain...per hour.

I view non-registered supers committing acts of heroism as lawbreakers like how I would view Harriet Tubman a lawbreaker. You do what you gotta do in the face of oppression and tyranny.

[Drdmx]

Sorry had to leave work last night.

In any event, the conversation seems to have dissolved into whether or not a death related to a heros actions is ever acceptable.

Dont misinterpet. If Carnage has his hand-dagger or whatever held above a little girls head and the only way I can stop him is a head-shot, then yeah, take the shot. I dont fault the hero in that regard.

The previous discussion was whether or not once the hero has Carnage subdued, if they should just finish him or not. Again, once your enemy is helpless, its not heroic to kill them. Now if they happen to die during the act of preventing a death, then thats just circumstance. You dont kill someone once the fight is over though.

I think that's why the Punisher is brought up. When the villains approached Caps team and he shot them up, Cap gave him the boot, and rightfully so. Cap struck me as having the mentality of "Who cares if those guys are villains? We are heroes and killing is not what we do."

[Drdmx]

Aren't like several laws broken and several crimes against humanity committed over at Camp Hammond and Thunderbolt mountain...per hour.

I view non-registered supers committing acts of heroism as lawbreakers like how I would view Harriet Tubman a lawbreaker. You do what you gotta do in the face of oppression and tyranny.

Excellent Analogy. Tobias, this is a great argument to your point of Cap being a criminal simply cause the Government institued new laws. I love the Harriet Tubman analogy. Civil War indeed.

[Eclips0]

Sorry had to leave work last night.

In any event, the conversation seems to have dissolved into whether or not a death related to a heros actions is ever acceptable.

Dont misinterpet. If Carnage has his hand-dagger or whatever held above a little girls head and the only way I can stop him is a head-shot, then yeah, take the shot. I dont fault the hero in that regard.

The previous discussion was whether or not once the hero has Carnage subdued, if they should just finish him or not. Again, once your enemy is helpless, its not heroic to kill them. Now if they happen to die during the act of preventing a death, then thats just circumstance. You dont kill someone once the fight is over though.

I think that's why the Punisher is brought up. When the villains approached Caps team and he shot them up, Cap gave him the boot, and rightfully so. Cap struck me as having the mentality of "Who cares if those guys are villains? We are heroes and killing is not what we do."

As I said there are laws that allow for self-defense killing, but to kill your enemy just to prevent future crimes is not something a hero does, it's something I would do.

[Tobias Drake]

Sorry had to leave work last night.

In any event, the conversation seems to have dissolved into whether or not a death related to a heros actions is ever acceptable.

Dont misinterpet. If Carnage has his hand-dagger or whatever held above a little girls head and the only way I can stop him is a head-shot, then yeah, take the shot. I dont fault the hero in that regard.

The previous discussion was whether or not once the hero has Carnage subdued, if they should just finish him or not. Again, once your enemy is helpless, its not heroic to kill them. Now if they happen to die during the act of preventing a death, then thats just circumstance. You dont kill someone once the fight is over though.

I think that's why the Punisher is brought up. When the villains approached Caps team and he shot them up, Cap gave him the boot, and rightfully so. Cap struck me as having the mentality of "Who cares if those guys are villains? We are heroes and killing is not what we do."

Sorry to keep bringing up Carnage, but he's honestly the most extreme example I can think of; I see him as the worst-case scenario of supervillainy, someone who doesn't have a master scheme, doesn't have a grand plan, and is simply a cold-blooded mass murderer for the sheer sadistic pleasure of taking lives.

In Carnage's case, what could be considered subdued? So long as he is conscious, he is a threat to life. Even if he's unconscious he is a threat to life. His symbiote is in his blood; if at any time blood is drawn, Carnage is back. He can bite his tongue and Carnage is back. His hand could scrape along a rock as you're loading his unconscious form into a wagon and Carnage is back. He could get a papercut and Carnage is back. What constitutes "subdued" in this scenario?

[Drdmx]

Sorry to keep bringing up Carnage, but he's honestly the most extreme example I can think of; I see him as the worst-case scenario of supervillainy, someone who doesn't have a master scheme, doesn't have a grand plan, and is simply a cold-blooded mass murderer for the sheer sadistic pleasure of taking lives.

In Carnage's case, what could be considered subdued? So long as he is conscious, he is a threat to life. Even if he's unconscious he is a threat to life. His symbiote is in his blood; if at any time blood is drawn, Carnage is back. He can bite his tongue and Carnage is back. His hand could scrape along a rock as you're loading his unconscious form into a wagon and Carnage is back. He could get a papercut and Carnage is back. What constitutes "subdued" in this scenario?

Every time he's been captured. For whatever reason. Any time he's been unconcious he was at least temporarily subdued. In that time frame you can find something suitable that isnt murdering him (such as shooting him into space.) A Great White shark is the perfect killing machine. It's made for killing, and that's all they look to do is hunt and eat. But we dont make it our mission to eliminate the species.

[XPac]

Sorry to keep bringing up Carnage, but he's honestly the most extreme example I can think of; I see him as the worst-case scenario of supervillainy, someone who doesn't have a master scheme, doesn't have a grand plan, and is simply a cold-blooded mass murderer for the sheer sadistic pleasure of taking lives.

In Carnage's case, what could be considered subdued? So long as he is conscious, he is a threat to life. Even if he's unconscious he is a threat to life. His symbiote is in his blood; if at any time blood is drawn, Carnage is back. He can bite his tongue and Carnage is back. His hand could scrape along a rock as you're loading his unconscious form into a wagon and Carnage is back. He could get a papercut and Carnage is back. What constitutes "subdued" in this scenario?

It's not the heroes job to pick and choose who lives and dies. Ending a life in the heat of battle can sometimes be a necessity... but the real point is to end any conflict using the minimal amount of force possible.

A big part of the reason why the heroes were allowed to function with relative independence from government for so long was BECAUSE of people like Spider-Man, who chose not to take on the role of judge, jury, and executioner simply because they had the power to do so.

Is it a flawed system? Sure. But if the alternative is having heroes play judge, jury and executioner then I'd argue overall it's better for everyone involved.

[bulbasteve]

Actually they don't we already covered that.

As I recall your argument was "you can break a law to prevent a greater crime" which is not the case as a citizen is not granted the protection that a member of law enforcement does (and even it is not THAT wide) and falls under strict liability.

And the only time you are even legally allowed to is if they have seen the actual crime take place and try to stop it. This does not work with the example that say Zach used with breaking and entering and such.

And even WHEN say stopping a mugging is perfectly legal you are both A. Required to stay at the scene till police arrive to fill out your citizens arrest forms and whatnot and B. To sign it! They kinda would need to know who you are you know...I'm pretty sure you can't just sign "Spider-Man" :p

Every time he's been captured. For whatever reason. Any time he's been unconcious he was at least temporarily subdued. In that time frame you can find something suitable that isnt murdering him (such as shooting him into space.) A Great White shark is the perfect killing machine. It's made for killing, and that's all they look to do is hunt and eat. But we dont make it our mission to eliminate the species.

But we do put down nearly any animal that attacks a human you know...

[Eclips0]

As I recall your argument was "you can break a law to prevent a greater crime" which is not the case as a citizen is not granted the protection that a member of law enforcement does (and even it is not THAT wide) and falls under strict liability.

And the only time you are even legally allowed to is if they have seen the actual crime take place and try to stop it. This does not work with the example that say Zach used with breaking and entering and such.

And even WHEN say stopping a mugging is perfectly legal you are both A. Required to stay at the scene till police arrive to fill out your citizens arrest forms and whatnot and B. To sign it! They kinda would need to know who you are you know...I'm pretty sure you can't just sign "Spider-Man" :p



But we do put down nearly any animal that attacks a human you know...

First off as I said they make special exceptions for the heroes because of the level of threats they face, and as I also stated, sometimes he has to flee the scene to stop another crime. And yes you can break and enter in order to prevent a greater crime from happening.

If you ask again I am just going to copy and paste this as I am tired of repeating it. Learn to read a thread.

And an animal is different from a person.

[Tobias Drake]

First off as I said they make special exceptions for the heroes because of the level of threats they face, and as I also stated, sometimes he has to flee the scene to stop another crime. And yes you can break and enter in order to prevent a greater crime from happening.

If you ask again I am just going to copy and paste this as I am tired of repeating it. Learn to read a thread.

And an animal is different from a person.

So then you're saying that it's okay to break the law in order to stop greater crime from happening, but you're also criticizing Stark for breaking the law in order to stop a greater crime?

[Eclips0]

What greater crime did he stop? The SHRA is unjust and unconstitutional. And lethal force was not required.

[XPac]

So then you're saying that it's okay to break the law in order to stop greater crime from happening, but you're also criticizing Stark for breaking the law in order to stop a greater crime?

The thing is, I don't think a lot of the things Stark really did prevents a greater crime from being committed.

He accomplished nothing by mind controlling the Green Goblin to stage assasination attempts and commit terrorist bombings that he couldn't accomplish by simply sending SHIELD and the heroes after the sleepers in a lawful ethical manner.

[Tobias Drake]

What greater crime did he stop?

Depending on who you ask, unchecked vigilantism raging out of control, Wideawake, full-blown Armageddon end-of-days, really, there are a lot of answers to that question.

The SHRA is unjust and unconstitutional.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that.

And lethal force was not required.

I assume you're referring to Clor killing Goliath in this case. As I recall being brought up earlier, he threw a semi at S.H.I.E.L.D. agents (is S.H.I.E.L.D. considered law enforcement or military? Either way....) and was charging the malfunctioning cloneborg. I don't see a crime here. Even if you won't accept that his actions justified lethal force, they did justify self-defense.

[Eclips0]

First off the vigilantism question has been settled, the others are not crimes for which his crimes can be justified, for example I cannot shot my friend in order to prevent another friend from commiting a crime.

If Tony wanted to stop the government he should've joined cap's side and done it the right way.

And no, the SHRA is unconstitutional.

He wasn't going to kill the Thor Clone, lethal force was not justified.

[TotalWorldDomination]

What greater crime did he stop? The SHRA is unjust and unconstitutional. And lethal force was not required.

Thousands of deaths under project wide awake, thousands of deaths in the future due to unchecked superhuman activity (Reed's evaluation), the eventualy breaking of civil rights and liberties by an unmonitored unchecked force of freelance superhuman law-enforcement officers that would clearly get more and more lawless as time went by.

The thing is, I don't think a lot of the things Stark really did prevents a greater crime from being committed.

He accomplished nothing by mind controlling the Green Goblin to stage assasination attempts and commit terrorist bombings that he couldn't accomplish by simply sending SHIELD and the heroes after the sleepers in a lawful ethical manner.

We can't tell what he did or did not prevent with any action. The fact is that we can't tell how many heroes signed up for the initiative rather then continue hostilities against the US government due to the possibility of War with Atlantis. That could have saved many lives.

I would have prefered if he had send SHIELD agents after the Atlantian terrorists and had them kill the lot of them, but alas, it was in frontline and thus makes no sense. I'm just glad stark dealt with that cell before they could do what the rouge cell did and slaughter dozens of innocent Americans.

[psm]

First off the vigilantism question has been settled

You'll have to excuse my ignorance, but when was this settled and what was the verdict?

[Tobias Drake]

First off the vigilantism question has been settled, the others are not crimes for which his crimes can be justified, for example I cannot shot my friend in order to prevent another friend from commiting a crime.

The vigilantism question hasn't been settled, it's been addressed and argued, then sidetracked. That's not the same as settling it. If it was, this board wouldn't have nearly as many posts as it does, because I could just say that everything regarding Stark is settled, so you can't argue against him.

If Tony wanted to stop the government he should've joined cap's side and done it the right way.

Cap's side was aimless and devoid of any goal. They had no possible means of winning. The only way they could win would be to conquer America, crush the normals under their boot, and instill a superhuman dictatorship where normals are only given what rights the superhumans decide they deserve. It would be a state of tyranny with no gain for anyone, sacrificing their morals and ethics for nothing.

They would never do that. But that's the only way they would be able to force the public to change their minds. The reason Cap lost was because victory through violence was impossible without sacrificing everything he believed in. His side wasn't the right way. Even he realized that in the end; the way they were handling it, there could be no victory.

The only way they could win would be through diplomacy. Working within the system to achieve a better end for everyone. That work is still in progress, it hasn't finished yet.

And no, the SHRA is unconstitutional.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that.

He wasn't going to kill the Thor Clone, lethal force was not justified.

If Goliath is throwing semis at S.H.I.E.L.D. agents, he's already using lethal force. This means that there is no guarantee he wasn't going to kill Clor, especially when he's making threats as he charges.

[TotalWorldDomination]

First off the vigilantism question has been settled, the others are not crimes for which his crimes can be justified, for example I cannot shot my friend in order to prevent another friend from committing a crime.

But you can shoot your friend to prevent your friend from committing a crime, Like Clor did to Goliath.

If Tony wanted to stop the government he should've joined cap's side and done it the right way.

Cause Cap's way worked oh so well.

And no, the SHRA is unconstitutional.

And no, it's not. But we'll never see eye to eye on that shall we?

He wasn't going to kill the Thor Clone, lethal force was not justified.

How do you know he was not going to? Goliath could have swung that truck and blown Clor to kingdom come. Clor clearly lacked the fortitude of his clone-father (it took what? three hits from herc to splatter his skull?). And lets not forget that the lethal force question applys to the person being attacked. Did Clor have a reason to believe his life was in danger? the clear anwser is yes.

[Tobias Drake]

I'm just glad stark dealt with that cell before they could do what the rouge cell did and slaughter dozens of innocent Americans.

Hundreds, even. 900.

[mikekerr3]

So then you're saying that it's okay to break the law in order to stop greater crime from happening, but you're also criticizing Stark for breaking the law in order to stop a greater crime?


The only greater crime than what he is doing is the one he is covering up.

[Eclips0]

Caps way would've worked if Tony had helped instead of taking the side of the very corrupt government.

And no it is not constiutional. I know we won;t see eye to eye on that, I guess I'm just one of those wierd people who like freedoms and rights.

And no killing Goliath was not necessary. Goliath is not a killer he is a hero. Tony's side knew this.

Those who put security over liberty deserve nethier.

[Tobias Drake]

Caps way would've worked if Tony had helped instead of taking the side of the very corrupt government.

No, it wouldn't.

Cap's side was aimless and devoid of any goal. They had no possible means of winning. The only way they could win would be to conquer America, crush the normals under their boot, and instill a superhuman dictatorship where normals are only given what rights the superhumans decide they deserve. It would be a state of tyranny with no gain for anyone, sacrificing their morals and ethics for nothing.

They would never do that. But that's the only way they would be able to force the public to change their minds. The reason Cap lost was because victory through violence was impossible without sacrificing everything he believed in. His side wasn't the right way. Even he realized that in the end; the way they were handling it, there could be no victory.

The only way they could win would be through diplomacy. Working within the system to achieve a better end for everyone. That work is still in progress, it hasn't finished yet.

And that's why it wouldn't.

And no it is not constiutional. I know we won;t see eye to eye on that, I guess I'm just one of those wierd people who like freedoms and rights.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that.

And no killing Goliath was not necessary. Goliath is not a killer he is a hero. Tony's side knew this.

Being a hero doesn't make him physically incapable of killing. It doesn't create some magic hindrance that means no one can ever die because of his actions.

[bulbasteve]

First off as I said they make special exceptions for the heroes because of the level of threats they face, and as I also stated, sometimes he has to flee the scene to stop another crime. And yes you can break and enter in order to prevent a greater crime from happening.

Who are "they"? I have already cited the "Spider-Man Defense" from Tangled Web 22 in which it is quite clear that Spider-Man is treated just like anyone else. So actually cite your example, don't just say it exists.

[Eclips0]

Who are "they"? I have already cited the "Spider-Man Defense" from Tangled Web 22 in which it is quite clear that Spider-Man is treated just like anyone else. So actually cite your example, don't just say it exists.

There have been many times in the comics where a hero stops a criminal and heads off to stop another criminal. lots of times in the comics they even talk to the police and they don't get arrested.

And yes Tony could've joined Caps side and together worked out a way to bring down the dangerous elements of the government.

Being a hero does make him mentally incapable of killing.

[Tobias Drake]

There have been many times in the comics where a hero stops a criminal and heads off to stop another criminal. lots of times in the comics they even talk to the police and they don't get arrested.

And yes Tony could've joined Caps side and together worked out a way to bring down the dangerous elements of the government.

The only way they could do that would be to work within the government system, taking an active role in the system and working towards a better goal. Or conquer it, destroy it, and enslave the normals. The latter of which was never an option any of them would consider.

Being a hero does make him mentally incapable of killing.

No, it doesn't. Even Spider-Man, the Boy Scout of the MU, has given an order for a man to die. They're not just heroes, they're still human, with all that comes with it. Sentry is a hero and he ripped Carnage in half and cast him out into space. Iron Man is a hero (regardless what you think of post-SHRA, this was well before Civil War and the SHRA) and he and several fellow Avengers killed the Supreme Intelligence during Operation: Galactic Storm. Hulk is a hero and he killed a LOT on planet Sakaar, and he almost destroyed the Earth. Being a hero doesn't mean you won't kill. Even Amadeus Cho realized this.

[Eclips0]

No they could've taken down the system, revealed to the public how corrupt it was and then hand control to the people.

And when did Spider-man order someone to die? Sentry is also nuts, so I atrribute the killing of Carnage to that.

Hulk is not a hero. And Black Knight killed the Supreme Intellegence and Cap left the avengers for awhile after that as he couldn't look at them the same way.

[Tobias Drake]

No they could've taken down the system, revealed to the public how corrupt it was and then hand control to the people.

The people supported it. They would still support it. They'd actually support it more now that their metahumans have violently rebelled against it and, by extension, against them.

The only way that would work would be a system of "You can elect anyone you want except anybody we disagree with." And that isn't democracy.

And when did Spider-man order someone to die?

When he told Firestar to kill Carnage, midway through Maximum Carnage. Exact words, "Venom's right. There is no other way."

Sentry is also nuts, so I atrribute the killing of Carnage to that.

Hulk is not a hero. And Black Knight killed the Supreme Intellegence and Cap left the avengers for awhile after that as he couldn't look at them the same way.

And Cap killed a bunch of nazis during World War II.

[TotalWorldDomination]

Being a hero does make him mentally incapable of killing.

No, it doesn't. Cops, soilders and Federal agents are put into situations where they have to use lethal force, it dosn't make them any less heroic.

No they could've taken down the system, revealed to the public how corrupt it was and then hand control to the people.

And yet that would never have served your purpose. The people would have gone "Yay! The government is less corrupt! Now when are you going to register?" Just because the government is corrupt doesn't mean that the people didn't overwhelmingly support Registration.

[Eclips0]

The people supported it. They would still support it. They'd actually support it more now that their metahumans have violently rebelled against it and, by extension, against them.

The only way that would work would be a system of "You can elect anyone you want except anybody we disagree with." And that isn't democracy.

No, you explain to the people that regardless of what they want, they have to respect Rights and Freedoms. If the majority of Americans wanted to round up one particular race and exterminate them, would you say that they should be allowed to? Sometimes the majority can be wrong.

When he told Firestar to kill Carnage, midway through Maximum Carnage. Exact words, "Venom's right. There is no other way."
And then he realized that Venom was wrong.


And Cap killed a bunch of nazis during World War II.

That's a time of war that was declared officially against a foreign enemy.

[Tobias Drake]

No, you explain to the people that regardless of what they want, they have to respect Rights and Freedoms. If the majority of Americans wanted to round up one particular race and exterminate them, would you say that they should be allowed to? Sometimes the majority can be wrong.

I would say that in any given situation, if the people are only allowed to make the choices you will permit them to, then it's not a democracy. It's tyranny in disguise.

And then he realized that Venom was wrong.

And yet it was Venom who stopped Carnage and end Maximum Carnage. Not Spider-Man, not Captain America, and not Firestar. Venom.

That's a time of war that was declared officially against a foreign enemy.

So we agree that can be okay for a hero to kill, depending on the circumstances.

[Eclips0]

I would say that in any given situation, if the people are only allowed to make the choices you will permit them to, then it's not a democracy. It's tyranny in disguise.
Good, people need a set of rights and freedoms that keep them in check because people can often get scared and be very irrational. The constitution provides checks and balances for the government and also ones for us as well to make sure we don't go to far.

And yet it was Venom who stopped Carnage and end Maximum Carnage. Not Spider-Man, not Captain America, and not Firestar. Venom.

Yes, Venom a villain stopped him. Since then Spider-man has without trying to kill him.

So we agree that can be okay for a hero to kill, depending on the circumstances.
Cap wasn't acting as a hero in WWII, at least not in the comics sense of the word.

[Tobias Drake]

Good, people need a set of rights and freedoms that keep them in check because people can often get scared and be very irrational. The constitution provides checks and balances for the government and also ones for us as well to make sure we don't go to far.

But we can change the constitution. So it doesn't really stop us from doing anything.

Yes, Venom a villain stopped him. Since then Spider-man has without trying to kill him.

I can