Unpopular Opinion: The Young Avengers were poorly introduced

[Monty_Cristo]

DISCLAIMER; this is all my very biased opinion


i, recently, bought and read the first 11 issues of Young Avengers. i was left with the feeling that the idea of young avengers-related characters had been wasted. their powers and codenames were all kind of generic. how the team came together seemed more than a little contrived/overly convenient. and i can't remember being excited about any of the villain choices; definately wasn't clamoring for a half-hearted kid version of the kree-skrull war. and, lastly, i think a couple of these characters would have been better served appearing out of nowhere, as young Initiative recruits (ex. Cassie Lang or Patriot). discuss.

[Shyft]

I personally really liked the way the team was brought together. The whole Kang/Iron Lad thing struck me a pretty cool, and was a decent way to use a pre-established Avenger's foe in a new way to bring in new characters. I also liked Iron Lad's armour, and its Vision transformation.

Origins-wise, its a mixed bag for me. Patriot is excellent, i was really impressed with the way his use of MGH was done. Hulkling and Iron Lad i also liked. Cassie Lang, just being the daughter of an Avenger, seemed a little boring. And as a non-fan of the Scarlet Witch and all her dealings, the vagueness of Wiccan/Speed's origins just irritates me. Hawkeye's bit, im neutral about.

I did NOT like the way that all of them were direct analogues of other Avengers. This is less of an issue now, as they have had time to fill out character-wise, but that thing of having a teen hero who uses a name similar but more kiddy to their specific hero always seemed a DC thing to me, and lame. Maybe im in the minority, maybe thats why they are popular (and why Marvel went for a Teen Titans rival) but Superboy, Kid FLash, Wonder Girl, Miss Martian, etc, all seemed pretty stupid to me.

[Wild Card13]

I actually enjoyed how they were analogues of people from Avengers history, especially because so many of them were related to characters that you'd never expect. I know that I never saw Iron Lad's identity as Kang coming. And the offhanded references to Hulkling's dad dying of cancer before he was born...quite well done.

I don't know. I rather liked how they were introduced. They didn't try and project this air of mystery around everything like New Warriors, and keep us in the dark so long that some people lose their interest. And they didn't really reveal everything up front, either. I think the only real problem with Young Avengers is how little of it there is...

[Beast]

You're right. It is an unpopular opinion. ;)

Not sure why it didn't work for you. But terms like 'Generic' regarding them certainly don't fit the team. Not to mention, I don't see how the team coming together is anymore contrived or convenient than the formation of any team. Including the original Avengers. Not to mention, given their appearances pre-date the concept of the SHRA/Initiative, I don't show how they would work better being introduced there.

You said you only read the first 11 issues? Did you skip 12? And I take it from your comments that you likely didn't read the Young Avengers Special either. Which adds a great deal of background behind most of the team and develops them more as characters. It's pretty much essential reading between YA #8 and YA #9.

[Beast]

I did NOT like the way that all of them were direct analogues of other Avengers.
But they never really were. That's only how they presented themselves. Cause they were fanboys.

Remember when the book was teased, and it looked like they were Avengers analogues. But the marketing campagin was "They're not what you think". Because they weren't analogues of the Avengers.

[Monty_Cristo]

You're right. It is an unpopular opinion. ;)

Not sure why it didn't work for you. But terms like 'Generic' regarding them certainly don't fit the team. Not to mention, I don't see how the team coming together is anymore contrived or convenient than the formation of any team. Including the original Avengers. Not to mention, given their appearances pre-date the concept of the SHRA/Initiative, I don't show how they would work better being introduced there.

You said you only read the first 11 issues? Did you skip 12? And I take it from your comments that you likely didn't read the Young Avengers Special either. Which adds a great deal of background behind most of the team and develops them more as characters. It's pretty much essential reading between YA #8 and YA #9.


i have the first 11 because that's what was in the 50 cent bin. i did pick up the first story arc (when it first hit shelves) like many other people though. anyways, i wasn't really buying the premise of the book. it just required too many convenient accidents to get them together. and when you bring up the origin of the real Avengers, consider just how much simpler a time that was. comics were most definatley aimed at little children back then. but, seriously, "hulkling" has to be about the lamest codename i have ever heard; outside of Eye-Scream. i dunno; there were just way too much happy convenience in those first few issues. they just happen to interrupt a wedding that Kate Bishop is attending. she just happens to be a good enough archer to be a superheroine. her dad just happens to be rich enough to buy the team new costumes. Cassie just happens to meet her at the hospital in time for them both to go meet up with the Young Avengers. Vision just happened to be destroyed in time for young Kang to hijack his inert body. and it doesn't help (for me) that they were instantly redundant once the registration act passed.

[Monty_Cristo]

But they never really were. That's only how they presented themselves. Cause they were fanboys.

Remember when the book was teased, and it looked like they were Avengers analogues. But the marketing campagin was "They're not what you think". Because they weren't analogues of the Avengers.

hmm. i'm not so sure. they definately scream analogues of the kooky quartet to me.

silver haired speedster with lehnsherr blood? check
girly red-cloaked twin with magical abilities? check
purple-hued archer? check
super athlete wrapped in a flag? check

Cassie Lang: "i'm going to be the new Ant-Man."

how much more on-the-nose does it have to be? i still kind of wish that a few of these folks had been introduced much later, say, as a part of some kind of special Heinberg-written issue of the Initiative. as it is, i'm not sure how the team will be able to make a comeback in a world that i soon to be saturated with young registered heroes.

[Beast]

Comic books, especially books featuring new characters and new teams all require some amount of convenience to get going. Look at the Runaways for examples. The events of the story brought the team together. Same with here. It's not at all about Comics being aimed at little kids. Especially since Stan Lee knew that adults were reading them, and didn't write down to kids. Frankly that's just a cheap arguement in general.

Avengers Disassembled caused the Avengers to disband. Young Kang comes back from the future in order to stop himsel from becoming the villain Kang. Finds the Avengers disbanded, and can't get them to listen to him. So he finds the destroyed Vision in Stark's warehouse and stumbles across a safety protocal. Various teenagers with powers that should be taped if anything bad happened to the Avengers. Young Kang decides to contact the closest individuals. There's no real outrageous convenience at work there.

As for Kate Bishop, it's not like she was the only person who's life they impacted. We didn't even see every instance of superheroics by the YA before that event. She just happened to have the skills and ambition to want to join them. As well as the financial backing. So yeah, while it's a little convenient... so is anything that occurs in comics. We're talking about books with characters with Super Powers. It's somewhat required.

[Shyft]

But they never really were. That's only how they presented themselves. Cause they were fanboys.

Remember when the book was teased, and it looked like they were Avengers analogues. But the marketing campagin was "They're not what you think". Because they weren't analogues of the Avengers.

they kind of were though. As i said, its less of an issue now. But that whole "teen version of established hero with slightly altered name/look" just bugs me.

[Shyft]

i still kind of wish that a few of these folks had been introduced much later, say, as a part of some kind of special Heinberg-written issue of the Initiative. as it is, i'm not sure how the team will be able to make a comeback in a world that i soon to be saturated with young registered heroes.

i disagree with you there. THe Initiative has enough of its own young heroes, and a very good aspect of the Young Avengers was the fact that the Old Avengers (who were actually the New Avengers :S ) didnt approve of the team, that the YA were doing it off their own back.

[Monty_Cristo]

Comic books, especially books featuring new characters and new teams all require some amount of convenience to get going. Look at the Runaways for examples. The events of the story brought the team together.

there are good ways to do it and bad ways to do it, imo. Runaways was very creative about the origin of the team and the tone of the book. a powerful group of villains had kids to preserve a legacy. the kids rebelled against that legacy. that's a very organic reason to become a team of superheroes (which they are only really playing at, right now). that said, i don't even like the Runaways and i can see that they are very original. i can't say the same about the Young Avengers. they are the non-x-men version of the new mutants (imo). that, alone, isn't a bad thing. but now that there's an actual army base churning out young heroes....


Finds the Avengers disbanded, and can't get them to listen to him.

how convenient that they wouldn't listen to him; considering how much of a threat Kang had been to them (and the world) in the past.

So he finds the destroyed Vision in Stark's warehouse and stumbles across a safety protocal. Various teenagers with powers that should be taped if anything bad happened to the Avengers.

utterly ridiculous. it's just too far-fetched, imo. who was going to train the 'replacement avengers?' where were the other heroes? the Avengers weren't the end-all. and keep in mind that Iron Lad had to reactivate Vision for this plan to work. so Vision basically foresaw a young version of Kang returning to the past, being ignored by older heroes, and using him as an armor.

Young Kang decides to contact the closest individuals. There's no real outrageous convenience at work there.

two imaginary children. one happens to be Hulkling's type. the other bursts out of some kind of juvenile detention facility just in time to join up. good thing that Kate Bishop's dad's money was around. what would have 'Speed' worn, without it?

[Beast]

You're even misrepresenting some of the events in the comic for to foster your argument.

[Monty_Cristo]

You're even misrepresenting some of the events in the comic for to foster your argument.

that's not much of a comeback.

[Rock It Raccoon]

count me in the majority. or maybe just the popular opinion.

although all the time-travel specifics bugged me with iron lad (always have, always will) everyone else's origin made total sense to me. i liked that patriot was explicitly NOT a part of steve roger's legacy... made for a good jumping off point for a totally new character. wiccan and speed's origins being vague makes sense to me what with the established vagueness/unknown aspects of the scarlet witch's powers. it shouldnt be to hard to explain that away, probably in the upcoming specials. that cassie lang is kinda boring also makes sense, as her dad was a pretty lame superhero. i remember i had one issue where ant man had to beat a villain on the way to cassie's school play only to miss it and be resented by her. whoop-de-doo. lame plot device, lame superhero. anyways, hulkling's origin made for at least one good arc of superhero story, and kate bishop is a solid character, less as an actual superhero than as a presence in the team.

my thoughts on the subject.

[Monty_Cristo]

although all the time-travel specifics bugged me with iron lad (always have, always will) everyone else's origin made total sense to me.


why would Wiccan's origin make total sense to anyone?

i liked that patriot was explicitly NOT a part of steve roger's legacy...


the Truth series was a part of Steve Roger's legacy.

made for a good jumping off point for a totally new character. wiccan and speed's origins being vague makes sense to me what with the established vagueness/unknown aspects of the scarlet witch's powers.


so it makes sense because it doesn't make sense?

that cassie lang is kinda boring also makes sense, as her dad was a pretty lame superhero. i remember i had one issue where ant man had to beat a villain on the way to cassie's school play only to miss it and be resented by her. whoop-de-doo. lame plot device, lame superhero.


so it makes sense to you that she was secretly stealing his pym particles over the year; enough to actually have internalized that power?

anyways, hulkling's origin made for at least one good arc of superhero story,


Genis was cooler

and kate bishop is a solid character, less as an actual superhero than as a presence in the team.


i don't think she stands out in any capacity.

[Shyft]

there are good ways to do it and bad ways to do it, imo. Runaways was very creative about the origin of the team and the tone of the book. a powerful group of villains had kids to preserve a legacy. the kids rebelled against that legacy. that's a very organic reason to become a team of superheroes (which they are only really playing at, right now). that said, i don't even like the Runaways and i can see that they are very original. i can't say the same about the Young Avengers. they are the non-x-men version of the new mutants (imo). that, alone, isn't a bad thing. but now that there's an actual army base churning out young heroes....

As good as the Initiative is, it shouldnt have the monopoly on young heroes. There need to be some non-tools out there too.



how convenient that they wouldn't listen to him; considering how much of a threat Kang had been to them (and the world) in the past.



utterly ridiculous. it's just too far-fetched, imo. who was going to train the 'replacement avengers?' where were the other heroes? the Avengers weren't the end-all. and keep in mind that Iron Lad had to reactivate Vision for this plan to work. so Vision basically foresaw a young version of Kang returning to the past, being ignored by older heroes, and using him as an armor.

In one part you say that the Avengers should have taken him seriously because Kang was a serious threat, and in the next you say its not even that big a deal, because the Avengers arent the be all end all. So which is it? And you make out as if the Visions program thing could ONLY be activated by Iron Lad. The Vision could have created it assuming that HE would escape whatever killed the rest of the Avengers, thus allowing him to do the seeking/training. OR, he could have thought that hopefully any of the other tech heroes in the MU (theres no shortage) would activate it. It really isnt as specific and ridiculous as you make out.



two imaginary children. one happens to be Hulkling's type. the other bursts out of some kind of juvenile detention facility just in time to join up. good thing that Kate Bishop's dad's money was around. what would have 'Speed' worn, without it?

i agree on the imaginary children bit, thats lame. and about Hawkeyes dad just randomly being rich. But one of the twins "happening" to be Hulkling's type, how is that a fair criticism? Couldn't you say the same about EVERY comic couple? Oh, Nico and Victor are each others type. how convenient? If it wasnt "convenient" that characters were attracted, we would never see any relationships in comics, surely.


Oh and Genis is way cooler than Hulkling, agreed.

[Monty_Cristo]

As good as the Initiative is, it shouldnt have the monopoly on young heroes. There need to be some non-tools out there too.


that's what the New Warriors, New X-Men, and Runaways are for.

In one part you say that the Avengers should have taken him seriously because Kang was a serious threat, and in the next you say its not even that big a deal, because the Avengers arent the be all end all. So which is it?


good thing that i never said that he wasn't a big deal.

And you make out as if the Visions program thing could ONLY be activated by Iron Lad.

or someone with access to his level of tech, yeah.

The Vision could have created it assuming that HE would escape whatever killed the rest of the Avengers, thus allowing him to do the seeking/training. OR, he could have thought that hopefully any of the other tech heroes in the MU (theres no shortage) would activate it.

then why wouldn't the Vision have recruited these other heroes instead of rookies?

[CaptainCanada]

There are conveniences in every superhero origin; Kate Bishop being from a rich family is a part of her backstory (most hero teams have at least one rich person).

The characters' origins were well-done, for the most part (Wiccan and Speed haven't been fully explained yet); the initial six-issue arc is one of my all-time favourite comics stories. Some of the Iron Lad time-travel stuff is rather arbitrary, but that's usually the case with time travel, and I don't have a problem with it.

I'll take the YA over the Initiative kids any day of the week; the major difference, of course, is that these kids actually want to be heroes.

then why wouldn't the Vision have recruited these other heroes instead of rookies?
Really, it's a very basic concept: the Vision identified potential future heroes in case (really, when) the original Avengers needed to be replaced, either due to catastrophe or natural causes.

[Shyft]

that's what the New Warriors, New X-Men, and Runaways are for.

Runaways are hardly running around looking for super villains to defeat. The differences between them and the YA are clear, es. in their Civil War cross. New Warriors and New X-Men are both X-related books. There is no real teen team out there who is just a young version of the Avengers. Except the Initiative. So why keep the field registered-hero exclusive. Lets see a teen version of the NA/MA rivalry. it will be YA vs. A:I.


good thing that i never said that he wasn't a big deal.

well you implied that he didnt need to bother getting the Avengers back together, as if someone else could deal easily with Kang. But at the same time you complain that the Avengers didnt take it seriously, as if they should, because only they could deal with Kang...



or someone with access to his level of tech, yeah.

Cable, Fixer,Jocasta,Reed Richards, Sentry, Hank Pym, Victor Mancha, Iron Man, SHIELD. im pretty sure the Avengers have tinkered with the Vision quite alot over the years. Im sure there is someone who could have figured it out.



then why wouldn't the Vision have recruited these other heroes instead of rookies?


your right, i dont know why. but it really doesnt sound that ridiculous for an AI character to have a file on potential future Avengers. Why is that so crazy?

[Monty_Cristo]

Runaways are hardly running around looking for super villains to defeat.

tell that to the Wrecking Crew. but, anyways, the Avengers didn't always go out looking for supervillains either.

Warriors and New X-Men are both X-related books.

New Warriors is as x-related as New Avengers or Fantastic Four.

There is no real teen team out there who is just a young version of the Avengers. Except the Initiative.

yeah, that's why i said that the Young Avengers are redundant.

So why keep the field registered-hero exclusive. Lets see a teen version of the NA/MA rivalry. it will be YA vs. A:I.

Cassie's a member of the Initiative. why not just have the Initiative versus the New Warriors? they are working at opposite ends of the registration issue, no?

well you implied that he didnt need to bother getting the Avengers back together, as if someone else could deal easily with Kang. But at the same time you complain that the Avengers didnt take it seriously, as if they should, because only they could deal with Kang...

no, i really didn't. what i "implied" was that there would be other heroes around; negating the need for Vision to find brand new ones lacking experience. his emergency plan wouldn't have really helped out much against Kang (imo).


Cable, Fixer,Jocasta,Reed Richards, Sentry, Hank Pym, Victor Mancha, Iron Man, SHIELD. im pretty sure the Avengers have tinkered with the Vision quite alot over the years. Im sure there is someone who could have figured it out.

Jocasta, Reed, Sentry, PYm, and Iron Man are all Avengers. if we're going by the "The Avengers are dead so i have to create a new team" theory, then you've got a very slim chance of anyone ever finding out that the Vision had a backup plan. his body wasn't exactly out in the open, either. and why would Cable give a crap about reforming the Avengers?

your right, i dont know why. but it really doesnt sound that ridiculous for an AI character to have a file on potential future Avengers. Why is that so crazy?

because he is intelligent and it's a stupid idea that wouldn't have worked without Kang. heck, i could argue that it still didn't work. i'd expect better from Vision.

[Monty_Cristo]

There are conveniences in every superhero origin; Kate Bishop being from a rich family is a part of her backstory (most hero teams have at least one rich person).

as is becoming a master archer for no apparent reason. her origin is about as easy to swallow as some ditzy cheerleader really being the vampire slaying chosen one.

I'll take the YA over the Initiative kids any day of the week; the major difference, of course, is that these kids actually want to be heroes.

really? does Speed want to be a hero? he hasn't put in the hard work that a lot of the Initiative kids (Cassie being one of them) have; just for the chance to be a superhero. they saved the president. who did the Young Avengers save?

Really, it's a very basic concept: the Vision identified potential future heroes in case (really, when) the original Avengers needed to be replaced, either due to catastrophe or natural causes.

thing is that he identified two characters who didn't exist but none of the other characters who appeared prior to the Avengers disbanding (ex. Gravity, Mastermind Excello, Hardball, Daisy Johnson, Trauma, Armory, etc). Patriot wasn't in his files. Cassie wasn't in his files. Hawkeye wasn't in his files.

[Dr. Chaos]

I'll take the YA over the Initiative kids any day of the week; the major difference, of course, is that these kids actually want to be heroes.
Can't say the same.

You'd have to pry Slapstick, Trauma, Justice, Cloud 9 and Ant-Man from my cold dead hands before I would drop them for the YA.

[Flâneur]

no, i really didn't. what i "implied" was that there would be other heroes around; negating the need for Vision to find brand new ones lacking experience. his emergency plan wouldn't have really helped out much against Kang (imo).

Jocasta, Reed, Sentry, PYm, and Iron Man are all Avengers. if we're going by the "The Avengers are dead so i have to create a new team" theory, then you've got a very slim chance of anyone ever finding out that the Vision had a backup plan. his body wasn't exactly out in the open, either. and why would Cable give a crap about reforming the Avengers?

because he is intelligent and it's a stupid idea that wouldn't have worked without Kang. heck, i could argue that it still didn't work. i'd expect better from Vision.
I always interpreted the plan as an absolute last ditch effort; a record of little known superhumans that likely wouldn't have been caught up in whatever catastrophe hit the world's superheroes. The kids were intended to be the absolute left overs of superhumanity, so to speak, which Vision or anyone else capable of accessing his files would be able to find, train and lead into battle. To extend it with speculation ... these files probably would've been uncovered and then deleted when the Vision got into the world's computers.

Finding the Avengers 'disassembled' and the 'new' remnants unwilling to respond immediately, an immature and fearful Kang decided to access these plans and form his own poorly thought out plans to prevent himself from being made to go back home.

It is a stretch and far less natural than Runaways but it's not quite as bad as you're arguing it to be.

thing is that he identified two characters who didn't exist but none of the other characters who appeared prior to the Avengers disbanding (ex. Gravity, Mastermind Excello, Hardball, Daisy Johnson, Trauma, Armory, etc). Patriot wasn't in his files. Cassie wasn't in his files. Hawkeye wasn't in his files.
Gravity, Cho, Trauma, Armory, Hardball and Daisy Johnson appeared before Avengers Disassembled?

Also ... Patriot wasn't a superhuman and would not be one now where it not for his adventures in YA, so there was no reason for him to be in the files. No reason for Hawkeye to be in the files either as she's not superhuman and she was only discovered by accident at which point she practically forced her way into the team. There was no reason for the Vision to want her.

[CaptainCanada]

as is becoming a master archer for no apparent reason.
She was raped, and driven to become self-reliant as a result.

really? does Speed want to be a hero?
He seems to like being on the team.
who did the Young Avengers save?
They beat Kang, they fought side-by-side with the Avengers against the Kree and the Skrull, fought (for the most part) against the SHRA, saved the Runaways from SHIELD...

thing is that he identified two characters who didn't exist but none of the other characters who appeared prior to the Avengers disbanding (ex. Gravity, Mastermind Excello, Hardball, Daisy Johnson, Trauma, Armory, etc). Patriot wasn't in his files. Cassie wasn't in his files. Hawkeye wasn't in his files.
Patriot and Cassie weren't known to have powers, and Hawkeye didn't have powers. The Vision's list is a series-specific plot device; it's not for other people's characters.

he hasn't put in the hard work that a lot of the Initiative kids (Cassie being one of them) have; just for the chance to be a superhero.
The Initiative kids are draftees.

[Monty_Cristo]

She was raped, and driven to become self-reliant as a result.

yes, because carrying an archery set around would definately prevent you from getting raped. i think it'd make much more sense for her to gain proficiency with a short easy-to-conceal blade, a gun, or maybe some mace. "self-reliance?" for what, hunting squirrels?

He seems to like being on the team.

and the Initiative kids seem to enjoy beating up on bad guys.

They beat Kang, they fought side-by-side with the Avengers against the Kree and the Skrull, fought (for the most part) against the SHRA, saved the Runaways from SHIELD...

Kang was only after Iron Lad and they failed to save him. the skrulls and kree were after Hulkling. fighting the SHRA makes them supervillains. heck, one of them jumped ship. and saving the Runaways isn't all that comparable to saving the president.

Patriot and Cassie weren't known to have powers, and Hawkeye didn't have powers. The Vision's list is a series-specific plot device; it's not for other people's characters.

that's my point. for a plot device it was kind of lame. it didn't even account for half of the team.

The Initiative kids are draftees.

Trauma joined to gain control over his powers. Armory joined specifically because she wanted to be a superhero (she helped the Avengers take down Ultimo). Hardball sure seemed eager to put on a mask and call himself a superhero. Constrictor was looking to reform. i could go on and on but why bother? some of them are draftees but some of the Young Avengers are reluctant, as well.

[CaptainCanada]

yes, because carrying an archery set around would definately prevent you from getting raped. i think it'd make much more sense for her to gain proficiency with a short easy-to-conceal blade, a gun, or maybe some mace. "self-reliance?" for what, hunting squirrels?

She's an all-around-skilled hand-to-hand combatant, as the series shows; archery is just one of her interests.

Kang was only after Iron Lad and they failed to save him.
Because that wasn't possible; it was a no-win scenario. But they physically beat Kang.

that's my point. for a plot device it was kind of lame. it didn't even account for half of the team.
It was designed to assemble the original team, and it did; things changed. What does it matter if people who weren't in the database joined?
some of the Young Avengers are reluctant, as well.
No, they wanted to be superheroes; who among them was reluctant (Speed isn't especially into the whole "fanboy" mentality of several of them, but he enjoys using his powers and fighting bad guys)?

[HeckBoy]

I've always been drawn to teen/young adult heroes, but when news of YA first came out, I was a bit skeptical [mainly b/c I always associated independent young heroes w/ DC and the Teen Titans]. However, after having read thru most of the series (I'm missing some of the middle issues like #7-10) I've definitely softened up to them (although not really sold on their long term viability). I like how they are mostly connected in some way to previous Avengers, it gives off a feeling of continuum at the very least. However, given all the developments out of the YA series proper, I'm afraid of what'll happen if/when they continue the regular series. If the delays weren't enought to kill this book's momentum, then the apparent changes (SHRA at al) that would have to be in place could cripple the original charm of it (after all, with essentially an Avengers team in every state, what's the point of having an Avengers contingency plan?).

|EDIT| Who else thinks the Initiative should/already has used the Visions's contingency plan to build up their Initiative teams? It seems logical enough as they're already "drafting" recruits (Cloud 9) regardless of whether they actually want to be heroes or not.

[MNM]

I don't think they were poorly introduced, I thought that was done well. What wasn't was how Marvel completely dropped ball when the writer started messing around. If they had been given a new creative team, they could really be established as a set of characters and a money making property for Marvel, but with the length of time since their ongoing ended and the subsequent Initiative stuff, I think their impact has been diluted a lot.

[CaptainCanada]

(after all, with essentially an Avengers team in every state, what's the point of having an Avengers contingency plan?).

I don't see any problem there, since the team was never about being a contingency Avengers team; the originals were formed using said plan by Iron Lad, but at heart it's about seven friends who want to be heroes.

It will be interesting to see how they deal with the changed status quo of the Marvel universe.

[Monty_Cristo]

I've always been drawn to teen/young adult heroes, but when news of YA first came out, I was a bit skeptical [mainly b/c I always associated independent young heroes w/ DC and the Teen Titans]. However, after having read thru most of the series (I'm missing some of the middle issues like #7-10) I've definitely softened up to them (although not really sold on their long term viability). I like how they are mostly connected in some way to previous Avengers, it gives off a feeling of continuum at the very least. However, given all the developments out of the YA series proper, I'm afraid of what'll happen if/when they continue the regular series. If the delays weren't enought to kill this book's momentum, then the apparent changes (SHRA at al) that would have to be in place could cripple the original charm of it (after all, with essentially an Avengers team in every state, what's the point of having an Avengers contingency plan?).

|EDIT| Who else thinks the Initiative should/already has used the Visions's contingency plan to build up their Initiative teams? It seems logical enough as they're already "drafting" recruits (Cloud 9) regardless of whether they actually want to be heroes or not.



*raises hand* i do! i do! i'm hoping that the contingency plan will actually end up producing the young Masters of Evil.

[Shyft]

tell that to the Wrecking Crew. but, anyways, the Avengers didn't always go out looking for supervillains either.

They dont always, but thats generally what the Avengers do. And whilst the Runaways HAVE done it, its not generally what they do.



New Warriors is as x-related as New Avengers or Fantastic Four.

Are those two books starring former X-Men dealing with the loss of their powers whilst still trying to be heroes? Its not an X-book, but id say its X-related.



yeah, that's why i said that the Young Avengers are redundant.



Cassie's a member of the Initiative. why not just have the Initiative versus the New Warriors? they are working at opposite ends of the registration issue, no? [/quote]

Because the New Warriors arent Avengers. The YA and the Initiative both have claims to the Avengers name. As i said earlier, its like a teen version of the New/Mighty rivalry. But then you dont like Bendis related things so i guess you dont see that as a good thing.



no, i really didn't. what i "implied" was that there would be other heroes around; negating the need for Vision to find brand new ones lacking experience. his emergency plan wouldn't have really helped out much against Kang (imo).

No, you implied it wasnt that important for the Avengers to be warned about, but at the same time complaining when the Avengers didnt listen to the warning. the two complains dont work in tandem.




Jocasta, Reed, Sentry, PYm, and Iron Man are all Avengers. if we're going by the "The Avengers are dead so i have to create a new team" theory, then you've got a very slim chance of anyone ever finding out that the Vision had a backup plan. his body wasn't exactly out in the open, either. and why would Cable give a crap about reforming the Avengers?

I cant remember exactly, but in the book did the Vision program say "this program was created in case Kang invades?" No, it was simply a list of potential new Avengers, for use in the case that the current Avengers needed replacing. And you shouldnt complain that Cloud 9 etc werent on it, because those characters didn't exist yet :S And why does Cable do so many things? why did he decide to fight the SHRA? Why did he decide to join the X-Men? Why did he decide to hang out with Deadpool? Why is he currently stealing a baby? Cable has always had wierd motives for things. Besides you keep talking about it as if the program was created for someone specifically. it wasnt, it was just something The Vision had on him, just in case.


And its really not a stupid idea. Its basically a pre-cursor to the Initiative, tracking down and training potential superheroes. Just because you dont like it as a plot device doesnt mean it doesnt work. And it didnt NEED Kang. as i said anyone with Advanced tech could have done it, and there are ALOT of tech heroes in the MU. Alot more than i listed.

[/QUOTE]

[Diablito]

I personally think Young Avengers was one of the greater teen books out there. The characters had interesting backgrounds, and their personalities were very unique. I can sort of see how they are generic, but the stories that came from their interactions were great.

Oh, and Speed is one of my favourite characters out there. Great visual, great powers, geat personality. Makes me miss YA even more.

[Monty_Cristo]

Because the New Warriors arent Avengers. The YA and the Initiative both have claims to the Avengers name. As i said earlier, its like a teen version of the New/Mighty rivalry.

New Warriors = young heroes openly defying the registration act
Camp Hammond recruits = young heroes openly supporting registration

New Warriors = actively redeeming the name of the "Warriors" while throwing it in the face of the administration

Camp Hammond recruits = frequently reminded that being a "new warrior" is something undesirable, while throwing it in the face of former new warriors

this isn't rocket science. heck, they've already had the two teams face off against a common foe (the Zodiac). they are rival groups; face it.

No, you implied it wasnt that important for the Avengers to be warned about, but at the same time complaining when the Avengers didnt listen to the warning. the two complains dont work in tandem.

no, i really didn't. i know what i meant.


I personally think Young Avengers was one of the greater teen books out there. The characters had interesting backgrounds, and their personalities were very unique. I can sort of see how they are generic, but the stories that came from their interactions were great.

Oh, and Speed is one of my favourite characters out there. Great visual, great powers, geat personality. Makes me miss YA even more.

fair enough. would you see it as a bad thing if the Young Avengers simply disbanded and Speed decided to become one of the Initiative recruits?

[Shyft]

New Warriors = young heroes openly defying the registration act
Camp Hammond recruits = young heroes openly supporting registration

New Warriors = actively redeeming the name of the "Warriors" while throwing it in the face of the administration

Camp Hammond recruits = frequently reminded that being a "new warrior" is something undesirable, while throwing it in the face of former new warriors

this isn't rocket science. heck, they've already had the two teams face off against a common foe (the Zodiac). they are rival groups; face it.

im not denying they are rival groups, i am saying that i think the rivalry would work better with the YA, and that there is no reason why that couldnt work as the core anti/pro youth battle while the NW do their own thing. NW isnt anywhere near as popular as the YA was anyway, so the YA could be a more long-term rival. Thats my opinion, people are allowed those now you know.



no, i really didn't. i know what i meant.

well thats a start i suppose, knowing what you mean. Next time try writing it in a way that doesn't contradict yourself. that helps everyone ELSE know what you mean, too.

[Mississippienne]

The YA is, I think, one of the worst cases of Marvel dropping the ball in the last few years. They teammed up Heinberg and Cheung to develop these characters, create a story, and then... let them languish while Heinberg worked on his TV projects. He had a lot of ideas, including a junior Masters of Evil, that never came to fruition. The YA was so promising, but a lot of the energy has been lost.

There are problems with the initial storyline, mostly due to Heinberg's inexperience as a writer, I think. He tries to cram too much into one storyline: introduce all the characters, have them meet the Avengers, face off against Kang, lose one of their number, oh, and set up all the romances and rivalries. Iron Lad's sacrifice would have more resonance if he'd been around for more than a couple of issues.

The Good: Kate Bishop is probably the best new character. She's smart, brave, and confident. She's a proactive force in the team.

The Good: The Iron Lad retcon is the best thing to happen to Kang in about 40 years. He's always looked weak as a character next to villains like Magneto and Doom -- this gives him a tragic and complex origin.

The Good: Wiccan and Hulkling are a wonderful example of a gay couple that is neither villainous, nor dysfunctional.

The Good: Wiccan and Speed have the potential to retcon some of that wretched Byrned mess made of Scarlet Witch and Vision's marriage.

The Bad: Patriot is a character that has so much more to offer than being an angry young black man on drugs. Talk about stereotypical!

The Bad: Kate's motivation being that she was raped. Edgy and original -- oh wait! No! Only every other superheroine has the exact same motivation!

The Bad: Until the introduction of Speed, the team gets along a little too well, especially for a bunch of hormonal teens who've just been through major life-changing crises.

[Monty_Cristo]

im not denying they are rival groups, i am saying that i think the rivalry would work better with the YA, and that there is no reason why that couldnt work as the core anti/pro youth battle while the NW do their own thing. NW isnt anywhere near as popular as the YA was anyway, so the YA could be a more long-term rival. Thats my opinion, people are allowed those now you know.

i don't know. the way you've been putting words in my mouth makes me doubt it. and how did you arrive at the conclusion that the Young Avengers are more popular? did you run a poll? who caused Stark the biggest headache? none of the Young Avengers were savvy enough to toy with SHIELD, from what i remember. they didn't have a Murder World base of operations. they weren't nearly as well-funded. hell, they were nearly ended by having their parents informed. lol. this is who you want to rival the Initiative (kids willing to commit murder)? Cloud-9 could take all of them out from a clock tower.

[Cthulhudrew]

Patriot wasn't in his files.

For the record, Patriot was in the Vision's files. Check out issue #3, where 'Elijah Bradley' is listed among the other names.

[Monty_Cristo]

For the record, Patriot was in the Vision's files. Check out issue #3, where 'Elijah Bradley' is listed among the other names.

wow. then Vision must have been a real fortune teller. it's not like Eli actually had powers. he needed a blood transfusion like Cap.

[Rock It Raccoon]

oops. missed a lot on this thread. lemme see if i can make some sense here.

i think the big issue here is that the YA's relevance in the post-CW marvel universe is tenuous at best. when they first came out of the wake of avengers: disassembled it worked perfectly because it used elements from the temporary disbanding of the avengers to springboard some (IMHO) charming and fresh new characters into the MU. but, when bendis brought back the avengers almost immediately the initial purpose of the group (to stop kang) was invalidated. i mean, now that i think about it the whole purpose of the new avengers got invalidated in the civil war (to fight the threats that are too big for a single superhero, etcetera) and the "new" avengers simply became a counterpoint to the initiative and tony stark. but people dont fault them for it, right? so why should we fault the young avengers? the big difference is that the YA havent had their post-CW role sufficiently explained. it doesn't mean they're irrelevant (esp. with secret invasion and hulkling's role, whatever that may be)

frankly, there's always a lot of contrivance and convenience in any superhero comic. i personally think that heinberg et al did a great job introducing new characters and making it relevant for fans. YA is still in my fav titles, despite the hiatus and all. good fun comics.

[Monty_Cristo]

oops. missed a lot on this thread. lemme see if i can make some sense here.

i think the big issue here is that the YA's relevance in the post-CW marvel universe is tenuous at best. when they first came out of the wake of avengers: disassembled it worked perfectly because it used elements from the temporary disbanding of the avengers to springboard some (IMHO) charming and fresh new characters into the MU. but, when bendis brought back the avengers almost immediately the initial purpose of the group (to stop kang) was invalidated. i mean, now that i think about it the whole purpose of the new avengers got invalidated in the civil war (to fight the threats that are too big for a single superhero, etcetera) and the "new" avengers simply became a counterpoint to the initiative and tony stark. but people dont fault them for it, right? so why should we fault the young avengers? the big difference is that the YA havent had their post-CW role sufficiently explained. it doesn't mean they're irrelevant (esp. with secret invasion and hulkling's role, whatever that may be)

frankly, there's always a lot of contrivance and convenience in any superhero comic. i personally think that heinberg et al did a great job introducing new characters and making it relevant for fans. YA is still in my fav titles, despite the hiatus and all. good fun comics.

i think that you've stated your case very well. i don't have a problem with any of the individual characters. i just think they came out at a bad time.

[CaptainCanada]

i just think they came out at a bad time.
The optimal time for them to form was in the period between the Avengers' disbanding and reforming, which is when they came together. The whole reason for forming makes no sense if there is an actual Avengers team active at the time.

The Bad: Patriot is a character that has so much more to offer than being an angry young black man on drugs. Talk about stereotypical!
He wasn't an angry black man; he's generally characterized as a capable leader (when he was clearly in charge); he was only angry at Captain America for the injustices his grandfather suffered, and he got over that when he saw Cap's real value.

The drugs thing I know was controversial with some people, but Heinberg said it was based on his own experiences.

[Cthulhudrew]

wow. then Vision must have been a real fortune teller. it's not like Eli actually had powers. he needed a blood transfusion like Cap.

Cap doesn't have any powers either. Possibly the Vision intended to put Elijah into a training regimen, or something.

[CaptainCanada]

Cap doesn't have any powers either. Possibly the Vision intended to put Elijah into a training regimen, or something.
Since the name is on the list after Iron Lad recruited Eli, maybe he just added his name onto the list for the sake of good record-keeping.

Or it was an artist's goof.

[Shyft]

i don't know. the way you've been putting words in my mouth makes me doubt it. and how did you arrive at the conclusion that the Young Avengers are more popular? did you run a poll? who caused Stark the biggest headache? none of the Young Avengers were savvy enough to toy with SHIELD, from what i remember. they didn't have a Murder World base of operations. they weren't nearly as well-funded. hell, they were nearly ended by having their parents informed. lol. this is who you want to rival the Initiative (kids willing to commit murder)? Cloud-9 could take all of them out from a clock tower.

you of all people shouldnt accuse anyone of putting words in peoples mouths, its embarrasing.

well lets see, everyone was ranting and raving about YA when it came out, it constantly ranked high in sales, and people have been clamoring for its return since it went off the market. NW is losing readers and getting poor reviews what, 9 issues in?

They werent nearly as well funded, because Stark himself wasnt funding them, which is messed up in and of itself. The fact that the NW require all that stuff shows how fragile they are as a team. take away the money and they've got nothing. YA worked without all that extra whizz-bang.


And Hawkeye could take out Cloud 9 IN her clock tower, while Stature shrunk to make herself basically invisible, Vision became armour for Hawkeye, Hulkling took to the skies and morphed himself some body armour, Patriot used his shield for cover, wiccan teleported to cloud 9's location and Speed ran so fast she couldn't hit him. whats your point.

[Monty_Cristo]

The optimal time for them to form was in the period between the Avengers' disbanding and reforming, which is when they came together. The whole reason for forming makes no sense if there is an actual Avengers team active at the time.

then i guess there really shouldn't be any New X-Men since there is already an active X-Men team. seriously, it makes complete sense for the Initiative to create a young avengers team. they already created the Liberteens; a young version of the Liberty Legion. how is this different?

Cap doesn't have any powers either. Possibly the Vision intended to put Elijah into a training regimen, or something.

you're kidding right? Cap has the super-soldier serum in his blood. he's as close to superhuman as a regular human can come. Eli was a regular teenaged boy as far as Vision knew. he could have picked just about any teen to put through a training regimen.

[Monty_Cristo]

blah blah blah blah
They werent nearly as well funded, because Stark himself wasnt funding them, which is messed up in and of itself.
The fact that the NW require all that stuff shows how fragile they are as a team. take away the money and they've got nothing. YA worked without all that extra whizz-bang.

1) Donyell could have just set Stark up to keep them off the track of the real money man (the Taylor Foundation)

2) like i mentioned, the Young Avengers wouldn't have worked without Mr. Bishop's money

And Hawkeye could take out Cloud 9 IN her clock tower, while Stature shrunk to make herself basically invisible, Vision became armour for Hawkeye, Hulkling took to the skies and morphed himself some body armour, Patriot used his shield for cover, wiccan teleported to cloud 9's location and Speed ran so fast she couldn't hit him. whats your point.

that they are a bunch of little kids who would be on the defensive if Stark actually considered them enough of a threat to sic trained heroes on. they aren't contenders. the Warriors at least know that they are targets and prepare for that eventuality. the Young Avengers were quickly and easily apprehended by SHIELD agents at the start of Civil War. heck, a couple of them were crying.

[CaptainCanada]

that they are a bunch of little kids who would be on the defensive if Stark actually considered them enough of a threat to sic trained heroes on.
They appear to be registered, at the moment, although there's a lot of muddle around that.

And they've got potentially the world's most powerful computer on their team, among others.
then i guess there really shouldn't be any New X-Men since there is already an active X-Men team. seriously, it makes complete sense for the Initiative to create a young avengers team. they already created the Liberteens; a young version of the Liberty Legion. how is this different?
I'm referring to their actual origin story, involving Iron Lad. And they aren't a state-mandated team; they're a team of young, idealistic kids with superpowers who want to be heroes (except maybe Speed; he's probably in it for the action) and made themselves heroes in defiance of adults.

[Shyft]

hey, you misquoted me! I did NOT say blah blah blah. that SMACKS of putting words in my mouth.

I guess its all banter, seeing as how we havent seen The Initiative vs. The Young Avengers, and we still dont know if the YA are registered. You could get your wish, and they could come out of their hiatus as a registered team. Still, they managed to hold their own throughout the rest of CW, beat Kang, survive a mini kree/skrull war, and not get roasted by SHIELD/The Cube/Marvel Boy in their cross-over. The NW are a not particularly popular anti reg team who all rely on tech and money 100% to stay functional, and have already had a death or two. I just think the Young Avengers have the background, the power-sets, the popularity, and the style/asthetic, to be the anti-reg group to have a cool rivalry with their official young Avenger counterparts in the Initiative. Im sorry if my opinion upsets you.

[CaptainCanada]

Any rivalry between the two would be a forced on the part of the Initiative kids; they're draftees, for the most part, who don't have a choice, and they've never been characterized as rabidly pro-Registration or ready to round up non-registered types (except when, like Komodo, they're being threatened).

[Monty_Cristo]

They appear to be registered, at the moment, although there's a lot of muddle around that.

And they've got potentially the world's most powerful computer on their team, among others.

I'm referring to their actual origin story, involving Iron Lad. And they aren't a state-mandated team; they're a team of young, idealistic kids with superpowers who want to be heroes (except maybe Speed; he's probably in it for the action) and made themselves heroes in defiance of adults.

then how is it realistic that they are the rivals of the Initiative recruits? it's not.


Any rivalry between the two would be a forced on the part of the Initiative kids; they're draftees, for the most part, who don't have a choice, and they've never been characterized as rabidly pro-Registration or ready to round up non-registered types (except when, like Komodo, they're being threatened).

Komodo was quite eager to prove herself/go after Spider-man.

[Monty_Cristo]

hey, you misquoted me! I did NOT say blah blah blah. that SMACKS of putting words in my mouth.

I guess its all banter, seeing as how we havent seen The Initiative vs. The Young Avengers, and we still dont know if the YA are registered. You could get your wish, and they could come out of their hiatus as a registered team. Still, they managed to hold their own throughout the rest of CW, beat Kang, survive a mini kree/skrull war, and not get roasted by SHIELD/The Cube/Marvel Boy in their cross-over. The NW are a not particularly popular anti reg team who all rely on tech and money 100% to stay functional, and have already had a death or two. I just think the Young Avengers have the background, the power-sets, the popularity, and the style/asthetic, to be the anti-reg group to have a cool rivalry with their official young Avenger counterparts in the Initiative. Im sorry if my opinion upsets you.

doesn't come close to upsetting me. i just think it's a stupid opinion given that the New Warriors are obviously intended to be seen as an anti-registration team; whereas, the Young Avengers aren't. it makes no sense that you see these two teams as the perfect rivals.

[CaptainCanada]

then how is it realistic that they are the rivals of the Initiative recruits? it's not.

I never said it was.

Komodo was quite eager to prove herself/go after Spider-man.
Because failure/non-compliance leads to losing her powers.

Willingness to prove themselves aside, I've never seen anything to suggest the kids are really pro-Registration to the extent that they'd pick a fight with an anti-Registration team just because they were unregistered.

[Monty_Cristo]

I never said it was.

no, but your statement allowed me to make my statement; for the person who did.



Willingness to prove themselves aside, I've never seen anything to suggest the kids are really pro-Registration to the extent that they'd pick a fight with an anti-Registration team just because they were unregistered.

yeah, well who said anything about "picking a fight?" and what makes you think that the Warriors wouldn't be the instigators? they are much more rebellious and proactive, afterall. you don't think that they took pride in fighting off the Zodiac when the Initiative recruits failed? i could easily see a fight start over that.

[Shyft]

doesn't come close to upsetting me. i just think it's a stupid opinion given that the New Warriors are obviously intended to be seen as an anti-registration team; whereas, the Young Avengers aren't. it makes no sense that you see these two teams as the perfect rivals.

yeah, the problem is the New Warriors arent a good team, and its not a good book. They are all 2nd string X-Men who have been given awful new costumes, awful new names, pretty lame new powers, are funded by Tony Stark, and are based solely on technology. They dont have the exposure or popularity to hold up their side of any rivalry. The Young Avengers are good characters, in a good book, are called Avengers, have links with the Avengers, and are in a situation which could work perfectly well as a rivalry to the Initiative.

[Monty_Cristo]

yeah, the problem is the New Warriors arent a good team, and its not a good book. They are all 2nd string X-Men who have been given awful new costumes, awful new names, pretty lame new powers, are funded by Tony Stark, and are based solely on technology. They dont have the exposure or popularity to hold up their side of any rivalry. The Young Avengers are good characters, in a good book, are called Avengers, have links with the Avengers, and are in a situation which could work perfectly well as a rivalry to the Initiative.

the Young Avengers have no book (except Cassie who is at Camp Hammond). they are in a lousy position to be rivals to anyone. and, for the record, i don't even pick up New Warriors. i'm just acknowledging that they are being set up as the opposite of the Initiative. they are young people who are still attempting to 'hero' the old fashioned way. and they are purposely rubbing it in Stark's face.

P.S. since you keep mentioning the 'Avengers' name, i'd like to point out that the 'New Warriors' name has been mentioned more within the pages of Avengers: The Initiative. the recruits are considered 'New Warriors' until they graduate. there's grounds for a fight, right there.

[CaptainCanada]

yeah, well who said anything about "picking a fight?" and what makes you think that the Warriors wouldn't be the instigators? they are much more rebellious and proactive, afterall. you don't think that they took pride in fighting off the Zodiac when the Initiative recruits failed? i could easily see a fight start over that.
Picking fights with other heroes would just prove Iron Man's point, which is the exact opposite of what they're trying to do. They're out to fight villains and clear the New Warriors' name; seeking out the Initiative kids (who they'd probably view as partially victims of the New World Order, anyway) would be counterproductive.

[Shyft]

the Young Avengers have no book (except Cassie who is at Camp Hammond). they are in a lousy position to be rivals to anyone. and, for the record, i don't even pick up New Warriors. i'm just acknowledging that they are being set up as the opposite of the Initiative. they are young people who are still attempting to 'hero' the old fashioned way. and they are purposely rubbing it in Stark's face.

ok my bad, but their book WAS good, and seeing as its the same creative team coming back...

ok, so they are being SET UP as the opposite, in your view. So why cant the YA be set up as that if they come back and are un-registered? THey are the better team. If they come back registered then by all means put them in the Initiative. But if they come back unregistered, as i hope they will, they would make better rivals to the Initiative than the New Warriors, because every aspect of them is better than the New Warriors.

[Monty_Cristo]

Picking fights with other heroes would just prove Iron Man's point,

spraying graffiti like some street punk and getting a teammate killed in battle also proves Tony's point.

which is the exact opposite of what they're trying to do. They're out to fight villains and clear the New Warriors' name;

that's what Thrash is out to do and he doesn't even seem all that serious about it, yet. the others are just directionless and happy to have powers again. these are all (New Warriors and Initiative) kids looking for direction/looking to matter like the established heroes.

seeking out the Initiative kids (who they'd probably view as partially victims of the New World Order, anyway) would be counterproductive.

that's why i think any fight would evolve organically out of a chance meeting (like w/ the Zodiac). a member of the Initiative (probably Hardball) does some grandstanding. one of the Warriors make a remark. Komodo makes a remark to defend him. fight. and i haven't even thrown Eric O'Grady into the mix. you better believe that he would make a crack at one of the new warriors. he's a former SHIELD agent who dislikes mutants and has no real concept of heroism; + he's a bully. remember Freedom Force? most of their fights with other groups originated with the Blob running his mouth. it only takes one person.

[Monty_Cristo]

ok my bad, but their book WAS good, and seeing as its the same creative team coming back...

ok, so they are being SET UP as the opposite, in your view. So why cant the YA be set up as that if they come back and are un-registered? THey are the better team. If they come back registered then by all means put them in the Initiative. But if they come back unregistered, as i hope they will, they would make better rivals to the Initiative than the New Warriors, because every aspect of them is better than the New Warriors.

fair enough. but you've included a lot of 'if's' in there. you're presuming that the Young Avengers will be the better team. the New Warriors are actively training. they are learning to assemble their weaponry in the dark. what are the Young Avengers doing; hanging at Mickey Dees after school? sure, the Young AVengers could make good rivals of members of the Initiative in the future. but, as of right now, they are the junior team to the New Warriors. Cassie would start crying and want to go home the moment one of the Initiative kids punched her. what would any of them do against Slapstick or Trauma? maybe it's just me but i think they're too soft; more 'Muppet Babies' than 'Young Avengers.'

p.s. what i could deal with is the Young Avengers registering and forming a rivalry w/ their fellow recruits (squad YA vs squad (Hardball, Komodo, Cloud-9, & Trauma). but that wouldn't be any more serious a rivalry than the Excelsiors vs the Hellions.

[Shyft]

fair enough. but you've included a lot of 'if's' in there. you're presuming that the Young Avengers will be the better team. the New Warriors are actively training. they are learning to assemble their weaponry in the dark. what are the Young Avengers doing; hanging at Mickey Dees after school? sure, the Young AVengers could make good rivals of members of the Initiative in the future. but, as of right now, they are the junior team to the New Warriors. Cassie would start crying and want to go home the moment one of the Initiative kids punched her. what would any of them do against Slapstick or Trauma? maybe it's just me but i think they're too soft; more 'Muppet Babies' than 'Young Avengers.'



i dunno if its because you dont like the YA, or because you want them to join the initiative, but you really underestimate them and over estimate the NW. The NW are totally new to their powers, have had troubles with them, and are so inexperienced as a team that they have already had a death while in action. The YA have fought lots of really tough enemies and come out the other side, they are all fully acquainted with their powers, and have been using them for alot longer. Also just because they havent had their own book for all this time doesnt mean they havent been doing anything. They've been seen in other books.

And yeah Cassie is more of a muppet. she needs to man up, Lang style.

[Monty_Cristo]

i dunno if its because you dont like the YA, or because you want them to join the initiative, but you really underestimate them and over estimate the NW. The NW are totally new to their powers, have had troubles with them, and are so inexperienced as a team that they have already had a death while in action. The YA have fought lots of really tough enemies and come out the other side, they are all fully acquainted with their powers, and have been using them for alot longer. Also just because they havent had their own book for all this time doesnt mean they havent been doing anything. They've been seen in other books..

it's possible that i'm selling them short. all i have to go by is their very unfinished run. they never seemed as proactive as the New Warriors, to me. i think that both teams (Young Avengers and New Warriors) would be instantly outnumbered/resourced by the Initiative. but i think the New Warriors have already thought of a way around this handicap. plus, they could potentially even have the former New Warriors (Justice, Ultra-Girl, Rage, etc) aid from within. the Young Avengers could be picked off one-by-one because Stark already knows their identities and where their parents reside. they could be beaten with simple underhanded tactics (ex. threatening to lock up Billy's parents).

this isn't just a fight against some Camp Hammond brats. the Young Avengers would be taking on whatever government agency oversees the Initiative Training Base. the New Warriors have found some way to evade and 'attack' SHIELD. i can't imagine any of the Young Avengers pulling that off.

And yeah Cassie is more of a muppet. she needs to man up, Lang style.

yes, but that would involve being blown up by Jack of Hearts. i'd rather she just become her own woman and stop being so emotional about everything. i can't believe that this is the same girl who grew up to be Stinger.

[Shyft]

i miss Jack of Hearts and Ant-Lang-Man. Oh well.

Anyways, all they really have to do is hook up with the New Avengers for a base/resources/training etc. THen they've got their own grown ups to fall back on.

[storm_willing_slave]

i dunno if its because you dont like the YA, or because you want them to join the initiative, but you really underestimate them and over estimate the NW. The NW are totally new to their powers, have had troubles with them, and are so inexperienced as a team that they have already had a death while in action. The YA have fought lots of really tough enemies and come out the other side, they are all fully acquainted with their powers, and have been using them for alot longer. Also just because they havent had their own book for all this time doesnt mean they havent been doing anything. They've been seen in other books.
Exactly Shyft! Plus we know Patroit, Vision, and Kate had fought along with Winter Soldier who even stated,(paraphasing) they still need to polish their edges, but are very good! Freakin' Winter Soldier!!! You can't get a better complaint like that! Komondo had her butt handed to her by Spidey and then given a verbal spanking in the process! Ouch!

BTW, The Initiative are forced to do the bidding of Starks and Camp Hammond or have their powers neutralized! They aren't superheroes in any real sense as fear is their true motivation! Komondo was crying and shaking with fear that losing against Spidey(who kicked her ass) was gonna cost her big-time!

The NW has just been a underwhelming book, like many have mention here and in the NW thread! Uninteresting, drawn out mystery of former mutants identities! No real personalities on the team! No real exciting stories! Its just a mess that will be cancelled soon enough I'm sure!

YA have flaws, but people still wanna see them! The Initiative title is saved by its guest-stars and not the t Cloud 9 or Trauma or whatever! People get that title because they want to see what else the lying, sneaky bastards at Camp H. will do next! Cloud 9 and the others w/o their guest-stars would be useless and boring as they really haven't been developed and have no personalities! No one in the MU would cared if they died! Since the Initiative will be introducing a new team shortly, then I guess no one is gonna cared if they live or died! They'll be forgotten once Slott introduces the Liberteen or whatever!

[Tobias Drake]

I want to see the Young Avengers get a state. The Initiative still has a LOT of states to fill.

Exactly Shyft! Plus we know Patroit, Vision, and Kate had fought along with Winter Soldier who even stated,(paraphasing) they still need to polish their edges, but are very good! Freakin' Winter Soldier!!! You can't get a better complaint like that! Komondo had her butt handed to her by Spidey and then given a verbal spanking in the process! Ouch!

BTW, The Initiative are forced to do the bidding of Starks and Camp Hammond or have their powers neutralized! They aren't superheroes in any real sense as fear is their true motivation! Komondo was crying and shaking with fear that losing against Spidey(who kicked her ass) was gonna cost her big-time!

That's because Spidey's defense consisted of his greatest weapon: psychological warfare through excellent use of verbal skills. But instead of slinging the taunts and jokes, he terrorized the poor girl. That wasn't the Initiative that did that to her, that was Spidey horrifying her by describing in great detail the best thing he could think of to frighten her.

[Monty_Cristo]

Exactly Shyft! Plus we know Patroit, Vision, and Kate had fought along with Winter Soldier who even stated,(paraphasing) they still need to polish their edges, but are very good! Freakin' Winter Soldier!!! You can't get a better complaint like that! Komondo had her butt handed to her by Spidey and then given a verbal spanking in the process! Ouch!

ohhh, like the Young Avengers would have schooled Spidey. *whistles*


BTW, The Initiative are forced to do the bidding of Starks and Camp Hammond or have their powers neutralized! They aren't superheroes in any real sense as fear is their true motivation!

yeah but this motivation wouldn't make them any less a threat to the Young Avengers. Komodo could have stabbed spider-man with a spin tech needle. she just lost her nerve against an experienced combatant. what would have stopped her from stabbing Hulkling, Wiccan, or Stature? what would have stopped Hardball from kicking their butts? one EM pulse would take Vision down. and i'm only talking about the little kiddies. what about Mutant Zero?
what if they had kept Armory around? she could have slaughtered the entire team.

[Tobias Drake]

yeah but this motivation wouldn't make them any less a threat to the Young Avengers. Komodo could have stabbed spider-man with a spin tech needle. she just lost her nerve against an experienced combatant. what would have stopped her from stabbing Hulkling, Wiccan, or Stature? what would have stopped Hardball from kicking their butts? one EM pulse would take Vision down. and i'm only talking about the little kiddies. what about Mutant Zero?
what if they had kept Armory around? she could have slaughtered the entire team.

Yeah...the Scarlet Spiders alone would probably suffice.

[Monty_Cristo]

Yeah...the Scarlet Spiders alone would probably suffice.

well who knows if they'll even be breathing after KIA shows up. i can feel the brotherly love already.

[storm_willing_slave]

ohhh, like the Young Avengers would have schooled Spidey. *whistles*
ITS TRUE, YOU DO PUT WORDS IN PEOPLE MOUTHS!!!
yeah but this motivation wouldn't make them any less a threat to the Young Avengers. Komodo could have stabbed spider-man with a spin tech needle. she just lost her nerve against an experienced combatant. what would have stopped her from stabbing Hulkling, Wiccan, or Stature? what would have stopped Hardball from kicking their butts? one EM pulse would take Vision down. and i'm only talking about the little kiddies. what about Mutant Zero?
what if they had kept Armory around? she could have slaughtered the entire team.
Spoken like a true undercover hater! You obviously started this thread to create conflicts! So far you only write heresay and fanboy dreams and no actual facts to back up your theories! You act like you know about the YA but then you write statements that prove just the opposite! If you like the Initiative then ok, but quit with the false interest in YA or NW because you just want to rumble!
That's because Spidey's defense consisted of his greatest weapon: psychological warfare through excellent use of verbal skills. But instead of slinging the taunts and jokes, he terrorized the poor girl. That wasn't the Initiative that did that to her, that was Spidey horrifying her by describing in great detail the best thing he could think of to frighten her.
That wouldn't have worked if she didn't feel it was true! And we know at Camp H, its possible!

[Tobias Drake]

ITS TRUE, YOU DO PUT WORDS IN PEOPLE MOUTHS!!!

Spoken like a true undercover hater! You obviously started this thread to create conflicts! So far you only write heresay and fanboy dreams and no actual facts to back up your theories! You act like you know about the YA but then you write statements that prove just the opposite! If you like the Initiative then ok, but quit with the false interest in YA or NW because you just want to rumble!

The entire concept of Young Avengers vs. New Warriors or Young Avengers vs. Initiative is "heresay and fanboy dreams" right now. It hasn't come up in continuity. What facts could really be brought up? How many times have Wiccan battled Mutant Zero in continuity?

Really, it's not fair to attack Monty-Cristo over this; the very concept of it is pure speculation.

That wouldn't have worked if she didn't feel it was true! And we know at Camp H, its possible!

You underestimate the power of psychological warfare. You'd be amazed what words can do to someone, if there is so much as even the slightest doubt (and there always is).

[Cthulhudrew]

you're kidding right? Cap has the super-soldier serum in his blood. he's as close to superhuman as a regular human can come. Eli was a regular teenaged boy as far as Vision knew. he could have picked just about any teen to put through a training regimen.

Nope, not kidding, thanks for asking.

Rick Jones is a regular human, but Cap took him under his wing for training. Hawkeye's just a regular human, but he's an Avenger.

The Vision could have picked just any teen to train, but given that Elijah has ties to the Avengers (via the convoluted connection between Isaiah and Steve), he's probably a lot more likely to actually want to involve himself in the Young Avengers recruitment program than, say, Joe Schmoe. (And, given that Elijah took up Iron Lad's offer, it's safe to assume that the Vision was right about his interest.)

[Tobias Drake]

ITS TRUE, YOU DO PUT WORDS IN PEOPLE MOUTHS!!!

Spoken like a true undercover hater! You obviously started this thread to create conflicts! So far you only write heresay and fanboy dreams and no actual facts to back up your theories! You act like you know about the YA but then you write statements that prove just the opposite! If you like the Initiative then ok, but quit with the false interest in YA or NW because you just want to rumble!

The entire concept of Young Avengers vs. New Warriors or Young Avengers vs. Initiative is "heresay and fanboy dreams" right now. It hasn't come up in continuity. What facts could really be brought up? How many times have Wiccan battled Mutant Zero in continuity?

Really, it's not fair to attack Monty-Cristo over this; the very concept of it is pure speculation.

That wouldn't have worked if she didn't feel it was true! And we know at Camp H, its possible!

You underestimate the power of psychological warfare. You'd be amazed what words can do to someone, if there is so much as even the slightest doubt (and there always is).

[storm_willing_slave]

The entire concept of Young Avengers vs. New Warriors or Young Avengers vs. Initiative is "heresay and fanboy dreams" right now. It hasn't come up in continuity. What facts could really be brought up? How many times have Wiccan battled Mutant Zero in continuity?

Really, it's not fair to attack Monty-Cristo over this; the very concept of it is pure speculation.
Its fair because he brought it up and repeats it numerous of times!
You underestimate the power of psychological warfare. You'd be amazed what words can do to someone, if there is so much as even the slightest doubt (and there always is).
Please don't be naive the civil war is over and what happened was regualr ol' Spidey being Spidey! Its not even close to warfare, it were mere words that Komondo knows is likely to happened at Camp H!

Everyone know they were drafted and given the "do as I say or have your powers neutralized speech" on the bus ride there! Have you been reading the same issues as everyone else, because its all there? Why are you acting like Cloud 9 is happy to be there?

[Monty_Cristo]

Everyone know they were drafted and given the "do as I say or have your powers neutralized speech" on the bus ride there! Have you been reading the same issues as everyone else, because its all there? Why are you acting like Cloud 9 is happy to be there?


here they are having fun being heroes. look, there's Cloud-9 smiling. (scroll down to preview)

http://www.marvel.com/news/comics.1972.Initiative_Initiation%3A_Ant-Men%2C_Goliaths%2C_Etc~dot~

[Josef F.]

I don't enjoy the New Warriors
Which is sad, As Jono's one of my favourite characters.
The Initiative I Quite like.
Mainly as It gave Me Trauma, who is COOL.
But My favourite would be Young avengers
I just like the characters more.

I know that they came about a little contrived.
But it's never really bothered me about it.
And Convuluted origins are always good.
As we can discuss them in length with threads like these
And then retcon them 15 years down the line
:D

[storm_willing_slave]

here they are having fun being heroes. look, there's Cloud-9 smiling.
Still forgetting the part where they gave her and the rest that speech, huh? Figures.

[Tobias Drake]

Still forgetting the part where they gave her and the rest that speech, huh? Figures.

The first phase of military training is always the "terrify the recruits" phase. It always starts like that.

[stelok]

For a league of teenage heroes to the Avengers not unlike Teen Titans to JLA, I find Young Avengers to be a cool and interesting promising teen super-hero team. Much better than Slingers, Fantastic Force, X-Force, Generation X, New Mutants or especially New Warriors.

[Monty_Cristo]

Still forgetting the part where they gave her and the rest that speech, huh? Figures.

you don't know what you're talking about. Pym never answered Cloud-9 when she asked what would happen if they didn't graduate. figures. you'd love to paint them all as scared victims when most of them are gung-ho to be superheroes. most of them want to use their powers responsibly. Triathlon is there specifically to become the leader of an Initiative team. how do you account for this?