Iron Man: IGN'S Hero of the Year!

[mindcrime]

tony stark, the invincible iron man. the 2nd coming of doctor doom, the red skull, hitler, or whatever you are calling him this week, just won IGN'S hero of the year award. see, now last year, he won villian of the year, so why the change? because someone besides me & the 10 other iron man fans on this site, actually see him as someone who has been shattered by cap's death, & is doing the best he can with what he has. if some people would look past thier blind hatred long enough, they might see it too. but im really not stupid enough to think that will happen, so go ahead & slam him. i just think its great that some people out there see it too.:D

[Drdmx]

Congrats?

Question. Wouldnt you be a little dissapointed if he wasn't?

Considering his character is going through a major transition (good or bad), and is pretty much showing up in some regard inside a large number of books, wouldnt you kind of expect it?

if some people would look past thier blind hatred long enough, they might see it too.

While I agree there are some people who blindly hate him, I think that the same statement could be applied to his supporters and their "love" for the character as well.

[SquidSquod]

Meh, I still don't understand why people need to categorize hero characters as "bad" or "villainous". If Iron Man is written to have the tendency to be bad it's going to be temporary and not without better qualities.

Anyway, I assume anyone who sees himself/herself as a Marvel fan should be glad somehow.

[mindcrime]

Congrats?

Question. Wouldnt you be a little dissapointed if he wasn't?

Considering his character is going through a major transition (good or bad), and is pretty much showing up in some regard inside a large number of books, wouldnt you kind of expect it?



While I agree there are some people who blindly hate him, I think that the same statement could be applied to his supporters and their "love" for the character as well.





well, i dont blindly love iron man. i freely admit he's made mistakes, but i dont think he deserves the level of hate he gets.

[Eclips0]

They meant "Dictator" of the Year, it was probably a typo.

[Alan2099]

Meh, I still don't understand why people need to categorize hero characters as "bad" or "villainous". If Iron Man is written to have the tendency to be bad it's going to be temporary and not without better qualities.
It kinda goes with the genre. Noble heroes with awesome superpowers heroes up against impossible odds and vile villains and everybody looks good in tights.

[Eclips0]

The problem is you can't take a hero, then turn him into the American Doctor Doom and still expect people to accept his as a hero.

[Sean Walsh]

The problem is you can't take a hero, then turn him into the American Doctor Doom and still expect people to accept his as a hero.

He's "redeeming" himself. In today's real world (which shapes and influences comics now moreso than ever) that means a lot or something. :rolleyes:

[Eclips0]

LOL How is he redeeming himself? Have the writiers made him a skrull yet?

[TotalWorldDomination]

LOL How is he redeeming himself? Have the writiers made him a skrull yet?

I shockingly agree. I don't think he's doing anything to redeem himself, primarily because he's doing what he's been doing all along and I don't think hes done anything that would make him need to redeem himself. He's a much more interesting hero now then ever before. He's a hero for a new generation- he's flawed and he can make mistakes but his goals are good and his intentions are too. Like Daredevil and Spiderman, he's going to be put through the wringer by his writers now- and even more then those heroes because he's in EVERY MARVEL BOOK BEING PUBLISHED TODAY. Every writer is going to take there potshots at him and make his life a little worse (you know when Bendis calls for a moritorium on characters yelling at stark it's gotten bad). Yet dispite all of the pain he will endure, he will keep on chugging, trying to make the world a better place. He's going to be tortured, his ideas and plans will likely all fall apart (because who wants to read about a perfect world? I mean, besides me) and he'll be even more tortured, but he'll keep on going. He'll be abandon by the entire superhuman community, but he'll still keep trying. That future alone makes him overwhelmingly deserving of the title "Hero of the Year".

[Eclips0]

Then by your logic Doctor Doom is also a canidate for the title as well.

[Exo]

Hero of the year? More like flipfloper of the year. :p

Coward and Idiot of the year goes to Yellowjacket and Namor respectively.

[philibu]

iron man: IGN'S hero of the year!!

Great news.

More publicity for the Golden Avenger.

[XPac]

Hmmm... personally think it would have been nice if they had given the nod to Cap as a little tribute. But whatever... I think for a variety of reasons, he's a questionable choice. But no one can deny he made an impact, for better or for worse.

Honestly, I think a big reason they picked him was because he's a controversial choice.

[Eclips0]

Wrong choice is more like it. Was Kang the runner up?

[Brian M.]

His actions in WWH were pretty good, helped redeem him some I think...course I'm from the side of the fence that thinks he was right...but still, good choice.

[Eclips0]

WWHulk is partly his fault, you get no credit for fixing a problem that you yourself helped to cause.

As I said if you take the stance that Iron Man was right then Dr Doom can also be considered a hero as well.

[Eclips0]

I think that post says it all. Maturity is also a word you should add to your vocabulary.

The facts are simple Iron Man has become a would be dictator who thinks the entire country should be run his way and takes very questionable steps to deal with anyone who dissagrees, he is the american Doctor Doom.

[jonwes]

Iron Man has been a favorite of mine forever.

He was before Civil War, and he is after. I think the writers did some things with him outside Civil War that were a bit too much and amounted to lazy writing. But if you just take Civil War, Captain America, and his own title, I think you get a clear picture of Tony Stark as a hero.

In Amazing Spider-man and Frontline he did some things you could see as going too far, but really none of it was THAT crazy. I feel like if Batman did it comic fans would congratulate him on his ingenuity.

In the end, Tony did what he thought was right. He was trying to protect his friends from the government. It's been said again and again. I feel like half the most vocal detractors haven't even read the actual books as they usuaully regurgitate half-truths or they let real-world politics get in the way. There are no real-world paralells for Civil War. To throw around names like "Hitler" or compare Iron Man to Bush or something denigrates the severity of those real-life situations.

I think Tony did the best he could, and he took a lot of crap from it from people who were scared of change or fearful of the evolution of what it means to be a superhero. He's working within a system. That's never the most obviously noble or heroic thing. We all love the rebel. But unless you want to completely topple a power system revolution is never the way to go. What WERE the anti-reg people going to do? Overthrow the government? That because they have the power to stand up to the military and to topple governments they should or can? If you don't hate the whole system, but one law - you do what Iron Man did. You work within it - you try to minimize the damage and make it workable.

I just hope Marvel has the courage to show that this new way of being a superhero could actually work. I'm glad the New Avengers and the other side exist, because I think you need a couter-point to keep Iron Man and the Initiatie in check, but I wish editorial wouldn't let people crap all over Iron Man all the time by having everyone beat him up.

[mikekerr3]

Person of the Year is more like it. Bin Laden and Hitler both made that list. Mos interesting character I could buy.

As for him seeking redemption , the first step is admitting your Sins/Crimes we have not seen the Iron Thug do that. What has he done to balance out his crimes? The only thing we have seen is burying a friend in a damn tarp.

[TotalWorldDomination]

Iron Man has been a favorite of mine forever.

He was before Civil War, and he is after. I think the writers did some things with him outside Civil War that were a bit too much and amounted to lazy writing. But if you just take Civil War, Captain America, and his own title, I think you get a clear picture of Tony Stark as a hero.

In Amazing Spider-man and Frontline he did some things you could see as going too far, but really none of it was THAT crazy. I feel like if Batman did it comic fans would congratulate him on his ingenuity.

In the end, Tony did what he thought was right. He was trying to protect his friends from the government. It's been said again and again. I feel like half the most vocal detractors haven't even read the actual books as they usuaully regurgitate half-truths or they let real-world politics get in the way. There are no real-world paralells for Civil War. To throw around names like "Hitler" or compare Iron Man to Bush or something denigrates the severity of those real-life situations.

I think Tony did the best he could, and he took a lot of crap from it from people who were scared of change or fearful of the evolution of what it means to be a superhero. He's working within a system. That's never the most obviously noble or heroic thing. We all love the rebel. But unless you want to completely topple a power system revolution is never the way to go. What WERE the anti-reg people going to do? Overthrow the government? That because they have the power to stand up to the military and to topple governments they should or can? If you don't hate the whole system, but one law - you do what Iron Man did. You work within it - you try to minimize the damage and make it workable.

I just hope Marvel has the courage to show that this new way of being a superhero could actually work. I'm glad the New Avengers and the other side exist, because I think you need a couter-point to keep Iron Man and the Initiatie in check, but I wish editorial wouldn't let people crap all over Iron Man all the time by having everyone beat him up.

I agree. Marvel is constantly skirting the line with just crapping all over the storyline they created. I am hopeful that the Initiative will turn out to be THE thing that helps stop the Skrulls during Secret Invasion. That'll give everyone a little more info to chew on.

[Mark_S]

Iron Man has been a favorite of mine forever.

He was before Civil War, and he is after. I think the writers did some things with him outside Civil War that were a bit too much and amounted to lazy writing. But if you just take Civil War, Captain America, and his own title, I think you get a clear picture of Tony Stark as a hero.

In Amazing Spider-man and Frontline he did some things you could see as going too far, but really none of it was THAT crazy. I feel like if Batman did it comic fans would congratulate him on his ingenuity.

In the end, Tony did what he thought was right. He was trying to protect his friends from the government. It's been said again and again. I feel like half the most vocal detractors haven't even read the actual books as they usuaully regurgitate half-truths or they let real-world politics get in the way. There are no real-world paralells for Civil War. To throw around names like "Hitler" or compare Iron Man to Bush or something denigrates the severity of those real-life situations.

I think Tony did the best he could, and he took a lot of crap from it from people who were scared of change or fearful of the evolution of what it means to be a superhero. He's working within a system. That's never the most obviously noble or heroic thing. We all love the rebel. But unless you want to completely topple a power system revolution is never the way to go. What WERE the anti-reg people going to do? Overthrow the government? That because they have the power to stand up to the military and to topple governments they should or can? If you don't hate the whole system, but one law - you do what Iron Man did. You work within it - you try to minimize the damage and make it workable.

I just hope Marvel has the courage to show that this new way of being a superhero could actually work. I'm glad the New Avengers and the other side exist, because I think you need a couter-point to keep Iron Man and the Initiatie in check, but I wish editorial wouldn't let people crap all over Iron Man all the time by having everyone beat him up.

In your final point you don't have to worry too much. The writers at marvel will the the Initiative going for as long as they can, or more to the point as long as they can mine the idea for interesting stories. And even I must admit the stories can be interesting, but the anger and hatred at most of the mu-along I must admit with the people writing and editing it-makes it almost impossible to enjoy those stories. With cw marvel set out to find anger and division and hate, and they found it. It'll take quite a while for it to fade.

That being said I don't mind Tony being IGN's hero of the year. I hope his fans are happy about it. I don't agree with that and I wonder what the standards they used were, if the standard was "most able to survive bad writing and editing" then it would have been a close call between Tony and Wonder Woman. Part of it may have been that Tony won. He ruthlessly crushed almost all opposition to the sra. Winners look good. As Jesse Ventura used to say "Win if you can, loose if you must, but at all times cheat."

Mark_S

[Slaymaster]

Iron Man as 'Hero of the Year'? :evilangry

I took a long hiatus from comics (pretty muched stopped since '92, picking it back up... for a while I couldn't bring myself to start again since I saw atrocious artwork and the few stories I read were lousy... looks like things are [somewhat] turning around), but the 'Civil War' seemed like a good story.

Little did I realize that it was handled poorly (in my estimation). I don't know who decided to look at the 'Civil War' from a political/idealogical perspective, but they failed... miserably... with the exception of a few 'heroes', most notably 'C.A.'...

the real man of the year, CAPTAIN AMERICA.

Unless Tony Stark was somehow mind controlled (the Squadron Supreme storyline with the Overmind was a thoery), or is a skrull, or something along those lines, he's become worse than Doctor Doom ever could be... a traitor.

Superheroes have always been subject to the law (US, UK, wherever), but not directly to governments (unless by choice or in reperation for past deeds [criminals]); this was a good thing, as governments can be corrupted and adding a country full of super-powered beings would be a really bad idea. Last place I'd want to live is a collectivist/tyranny controlled country with aspirations of being a Utopia when I know theres no such thing.
Take a look at SHIELD, for example... especially that %^&* Maria Hill. They're so shady HYDRA looks good-two-shoes by comparison. Who runs SHIELD? That's right, GOVERNMENTS (US, UK, etc.). Who was in the process of investigating SHIELD? The Avengers. The world needs superheroes to be an opposing force to governments gone crazy or internally corrupt. Captain America, Luke Cage, and a handful others saw this.

I have a whole mess of other arguments, but lets cut this short... Iron Man is NOT the Man of the Year. (Although one of my all-time favorite stories is the 'Armor Wars', which should be the story for the sequel to 2008's 'Iron Man' movie.)


*On a side note, if anyone has the 'Captain Britain' trade paperback, could you scan and email me the picture of Slaymaster taking out two goons escorting him (elbowing one in the throat and using a downward open fist to the jaw on the other)... would love to put that in my sig. :evilsmile

[Brian M.]

How can Cap be 'Anything of the Year' when he died in like Feb. ?

[Eclips0]

He only won because they made Cap's character give up in one of the most PIS moments in comics history.

Hopefully, secret invasion will be what helps take the initative down. But aside from Tony being a skrull or mind-controlled I don't see any way to redeem the character.

[CMBMOOL]

Hero of the freaking year ?!? :evilangry


Forget it. The only version of Iron Man that I like was the What if: Civil WAr, Annihilation, and Planet Hulk version of him, where he dead or honest or even willing to put aside the CW to save the world from Annihilus. :D


IF you want to talk about Iron man, then look no further than Dr. Doom.:o

[TotalWorldDomination]

No when they are told that they have to expose themselves tot he world and become servants of the government then that is anti-freedom. As well as when they are arrested without trial and sent off to a prison indefinitely.

Both of your points have been definitively proven wrong.

1) you only have to be a public servant if you are going to be actively involved in Superheroing. Otherwise it's just like gun registration.

On a related note- Why should superheroes get to hide behind code-names when every other public official in the world is exposed to the same danger they are? Cops have there last names brandished on there shields, and tony's not even asking them to do that. Cops, Congressmen, Firefighters, ALL public officials except superheroes have there name on the public record. Only tony has access to the "Secret ID" folder, whereas any American can look there accuser in the face and know there name for "regular" crime. if anything, tony violated his principals as a compromise to make the regulars feel more comfortable.

2) I dare you to name one character that is still in prison and has not received a trial. There were temporary detainments during a time of war, and then as soon as Cap and his renegades were taken care of, they were processed and offered an amnesty. If any ex-heroes are still in prison, let us know of them.

[Eclips0]

Both of your points have been definitively proven wrong.

1) you only have to be a public servant if you are going to be actively involved in Superheroing. Otherwise it's just like gun registration.

On a related note- Why should superheroes get to hide behind code-names when every other public official in the world is exposed to the same danger they are? Cops have there last names brandished on there shields, and tony's not even asking them to do that. Cops, Congressmen, Firefighters, ALL public officials except superheroes have there name on the public record. Only tony has access to the "Secret ID" folder, whereas any American can look there accuser in the face and know there name for "regular" crime. if anything, tony violated his principals as a compromise to make the regulars feel more comfortable.

2) I dare you to name one character that is still in prison and has not received a trial. There were temporary detainments during a time of war, and then as soon as Cap and his renegades were taken care of, they were processed and offered an amnesty. If any ex-heroes are still in prison, let us know of them.

1) Why should they only be allowed to be heroes if they agree to be the governments soldiers? And they have enemies far more deadly then the groups you just named. And why should even Tony have access to that info?

2) It said in Civil War that they were to be imprisoned until they agreed to comply with the act.

[Jake V]

Maybe I just haven't been reading that many comics, but Doctor Doom tactics?

Anyone have any examples?

[StoneGold]

Maybe I just haven't been reading that many comics, but Doctor Doom tactics?

Anyone have any examples?

Don't you remember when Iron Man shot the Baxter Building into space?

[Eclips0]

Sure:

1)Tony built a prison in the negative zone to lock away anyone who didn't agree with him.

2)He violated Thor's trust by making a homocidal clone of him which killed an innocent person.

3)He set himself up as the ruler over all. He has tried to make everyone work for him according to his plans and how he wants them implemented. And no one elected him.

4)He is responsible for the Atlantian incedent.

In short, he has manipulated, betrayed and used lethal force to bring in military control via the superheroes.

He is Doctor Doom's long lost twin at this point based on his actions.

[Jake V]

Don't you remember when Iron Man shot the Baxter Building into space?

I must have missed that while I was reading Iron Man building time machines to mess with his college roommates.

[NickThompson]

Sure:

1)Tony built a prison in the negative zone to lock away anyone who didn't agree with him.
Tony built a prison in the negative zone to lock away people who broke the law.

2)He violated Thor's trust by making a homocidal clone of him which killed an innocent person.
A clone which was working badly (Which is possibly Reed's fault) killed a man who was breaking the law and resisted arrest using force.

3)He set himself up as the ruler over all. He has tried to make everyone work for him according to his plans and how he wants them implemented. And no one elected him.
The President gave him his powers. No one elects a lot of the people a President gives powers to.

[Exo]

1)Tony built a prison in the negative zone to lock away anyone who didn't agree with him.

That was Reeds contribution to the 100 ideas.

2)He violated Thor's trust by making a homocidal clone of him which killed an innocent person.

No he violated Thor's memory as everyone thought he was dead. The homicidal aspect was Reeds contribution.

3)He set himself up as the ruler over all.

Actually, no. He wrote parts of the SHRA that put restraints on his authority. Also he has people in higher places to answer to.

4)He is responsible for the Atlantian incedent.

No that was Namor. Power slipped through his fingers and a rouge band of atlanteans blew up 900 americans that almost lead to war (with Tony defusing the situation).

[TotalWorldDomination]

1) Why should they only be allowed to be heroes if they agree to be the governments soldiers? And they have enemies far more deadly then the groups you just named. And why should even Tony have access to that info?

2) It said in Civil War that they were to be imprisoned until they agreed to comply with the act.

1) because we don't tolerate Vigilantism in this society. because why should one individuals perception of who the "bad guy" is be superior to the will of the people? Cops in the MU face off against enemies using automatic weapons, organized crime, and on occasion Super-villains and they manage to do it while following the law. Senators, Congressmen and other Public officials all face super-human threats- but they make themselves accountable.

The Anti-Reg argument would, by extension, have support for a police force of Masked individuals who don't work for the government. Thus you could be talking to a cop at any point, and no one would be able to have there basic rights to know who is arresting or accusing them of a crime.

2) It also said in civil war that there imprisonment was a temporary measure. The JSM text and the rest of CW contradict each other. Tom B came down on the side of "Temporary" when asked about it.

[Eclips0]

Tony built a prison in the negative zone to lock away people who broke the law.
An unjust law and his punishment was hardly acceptable.

A clone which was working badly (Which is possibly Reed's fault) killed a man who was breaking the law and resisted arrest using force.
Still does not erase the fact that Tony stole Thor's DNA and that lethal force was not justified in that situation.

The President gave him his powers. No one elects a lot of the people a President gives powers to.

This is different, this is the President and then Tony basically instating a superhero martial law.

[NickThompson]

An unjust law and his punishment was hardly acceptable.
Still a law.


Still does not erase the fact that Tony stole Thor's DNA and that lethal force was not justified in that situation.
Tony took Thors DNA and used it for a clone, he was wrong to do this. The rest isn't Tony to me.



This is different, this is the President and then Tony basically instating a superhero martial law.
Why should superheroes be allowed to fight crime without training or accountability? You wouldn't want anonamous untrained people working as police officers, firefighters, surgeons or paramedics, why would you want it with superheroes?

[Eclips0]

1) because we don't tolerate Vigilantism in this society. because why should one individuals perception of who the "bad guy" is be superior to the will of the people? Cops in the MU face off against enemies using automatic weapons, organized crime, and on occasion Super-villains and they manage to do it while following the law. Senators, Congressmen and other Public officials all face super-human threats- but they make themselves accountable.
You can't apply our society to the comic book world. And the cops may face off against them, but they are not the direct enemies of the super villains and what happened to Aunt May is a perfect example.

The Anti-Reg argument would, by extension, have support for a police force of Masked individuals who don't work for the government. Thus you could be talking to a cop at any point, and no one would be able to have there basic rights to know who is arresting or accusing them of a crime.

The heroes only deal with super villains mainly and they do not arrest them, they capture them and turn them over to the authorities.

I don't trust the government enough to give them control over heroes like Sentry.

2) It also said in civil war that there imprisonment was a temporary measure. The JSM text and the rest of CW contradict each other. Tom B came down on the side of "Temporary" when asked about it.
Still it said they would be released when they agreed to comply with the act.

[Gene M.]

Don't you remember when Iron Man shot the Baxter Building into space?
I like when he sent the Unicorn back in time and dressed him up as a pirate.

[Eclips0]

Still a law.
That doesn't mean it should be followed. If it's an unjust law then we have a responsiblity to oppose it.

Tony took Thors DNA and used it for a clone, he was wrong to do this. The rest isn't Tony to me.
Believe me I also put blame on Reed, but I think the blame is both theirs equally.

Why should superheroes be allowed to fight crime without training or accountability? You wouldn't want anonamous untrained people working as police officers, firefighters, surgeons or paramedics, why would you want it with superheroes?

I'm not opposed to the training part or the accountability part, I am opposed to them taking orders form the government because it puts too much power in the hands of the government.

[Camron Amaya]

That doesn't mean it should be followed. If it's an unjust law then we have a responsiblity to oppose it.
.

Exactly lol. I never understood that attitude. "Some rich powerful people decided that this is the new rule no matter how wrong or ridiculous it is, we should follow it! Becuz they said so!". How the hell do people like that live with themselves it's so cowardly. If everyone thought like that litteraly nothing in history wou;d've ever changed for the better.

[mikekerr3]

I could start seeing Tony stark as a hero if he publicly admitted the following things'

That he lied to Spiderman by telling him that Tony was committing crimes against the constitution and humanity thus driving Peter to the Anti-regs along with his reason for lying.

That he committed insider trading violations.

That he sent the Goblin out to kill the sleaper cell instead of having Shield, or a non-murderous hero do it.

The he had Osborne shoot the ambassador.

Than the Nanites he injected Osborne with tortured Osborne when he tried to tell the police the truth.

These aren't all the things Tony did wrong but they would be a start towards redemption.

[Gene M.]

That doesn't mean it should be followed. If it's an unjust law then we have a responsiblity to oppose it.
That's exactly what it means! That's what a law is! You follow it or get put in jail. There's a LEGAL way to oppose laws and I'm pretty sure it doesn't involve picking a giant fight in the middle of a busy street.

[Eclips0]

That's exactly what it means! That's what a law is! You follow it or get put in jail. There's a LEGAL way to oppose laws and I'm pretty sure it doesn't involve picking a giant fight in the middle of a busy street.

There isn't always a legal way to oppose a law. And they opposed peacefully until they were attacked.

[StoneGold]

There isn't always a legal way to oppose a law. And they opposed peacefully until they were attacked.

No. They opposed by beating the crap out of people in secret and tying them up.

[Exo]

That's exactly what it means! That's what a law is! You follow it or get put in jail. There's a LEGAL way to oppose laws and I'm pretty sure it doesn't involve picking a giant fight in the middle of a busy street.

Apparently we can't

apply our society to the comic book world.

So don't bother. Apparently there's only one way to settle injustice and differences in a comic book world. And that's outside of court.

[Eclips0]

No, they tried to do their job in secret, every time it got out of control it was becasue Tony pushed them to it.

[Camron Amaya]

"It's wrong but it's the law so do it" is just something for cowards to hide behind.

[mikekerr3]

"It's wrong but it's the law so do it" is just something for cowards to hide behind.

There have been many laws in american history where it has been moral to actively fught the goverment. The easiest example was the fugitive slave act obeying THAT law in any fashion made you complict with evil. The people primarily effected had no vote, as I doubt the prisoners in 42 have a vote. If you did not comply with the SHRA your rights were revoked.

By the way go to lexington green the people who fought there were fighting for less important things than Cap was.

[jonwes]

Exactly lol. I never understood that attitude. "Some rich powerful people decided that this is the new rule no matter how wrong or ridiculous it is, we should follow it! Becuz they said so!". How the hell do people like that live with themselves it's so cowardly. If everyone thought like that litteraly nothing in history wou;d've ever changed for the better.

It wasn't the rich and powerful. The general populace wanted the law as well.

"It's wrong but it's the law so do it" is just something for cowards to hide behind.


A lot of the heroes thought the law was right. I think it's right. I wouldn't want super-powered people running around untrained. The fact of the matter is, the writers could never just put the obvious plusses of the SHRA out there, or Cap's side would have looked totally ridiculous.

[Eclips0]

There was a time when the general populace also wanted slavery, did that make it right?

[rogerio]

HERO???:confused:

[jonwes]

There was a time when the general populace also wanted slavery, did that make it right?

That's too stupid a question to dignify with an answer.

But the situations are nothing alike. Also, I was directly responding to the other posters (erroneous) point.

[Eclips0]

Yes they are, in both cases they are laws which are not constitutional and oppose the freedom of american citizens.

[Camron Amaya]

It wasn't the rich and powerful. The general populace wanted the law as well.




A lot of the heroes thought the law was right. I think it's right. I wouldn't want super-powered people running around untrained. The fact of the matter is, the writers could never just put the obvious plusses of the SHRA out there, or Cap's side would have looked totally ridiculous.

I wasn't even talking specificly about the SHRA, but in general, in real life. If you read his posts he says nobody should ever fight or break the law no matter what that law is.

BTW the general population is idiots and are easily dooped into anything that's been proven a thousand times over. Fear does wonders.

[Gene M.]

I wasn't even talking specificly about the SHRA, but in general, in real life. If you read his posts he says nobody should ever fight or break the law no matter what that law is.

BTW the general population is idiots and are easily dooped into anything that's been proven a thousand times over. Fear does wonders.
Actually, I said that there are ways to fight unpopular laws that don't involve any illegal action. That's probably just me succumbing to the fearmonger tactics of my junior high social studies teacher, though.

[Christopher O]

BTW the general population is idiots
Nice.

Anyway, that's cool. Iron Man has become infinitely more interesting since Bendis and Millar got their hands on him.

[TotalWorldDomination]

"It's wrong but it's the law so do it" is just something for cowards to hide behind.

And "I don't like it, so I'll ignore it" is just something for selfish morons to hide behind.

There was a time when the general populace also wanted slavery, did that make it right?

The general populace also thinks that murder, child molestation, rape and embezzlement is a crime. Just because we've had bad laws backed by the people, doesn't mean that all laws are bad. Using the fact we had slavery as an argument is a logical weak point and a very weak argument.

[Eclips0]

No but it does show that sometimes they can be wrong as well. And it's not that they simply did not like the law, it was because it goes against the constitution and the freedom of the superheroes as US citizens.

[Mark_S]

Nice.

Anyway, that's cool. Iron Man has become infinitely more interesting since Bendis and Millar got their hands on him.

I'll grant you interesting, but they've also made it so that you can't mention the words "Iron" and "Man" on the net without an explosion of some sort. It's a bit like throwing a match into a dynamite factory. I wonder how happy they are about that.

Mark_S

[TotalWorldDomination]

I'll grant you interesting, but they've also made it so that you can't mention the words "Iron" and "Man" on the net without an explosion of some sort. It's a bit like throwing a match into a dynamite factory. I wonder how happy they are about that.

Mark_S

I'd wager they are ecstatic. They took a character that very few people had strong feelings about one way or another and made him into THE focal point for the entire MU.

[Christopher O]

I'll grant you interesting, but they've also made it so that you can't mention the words "Iron" and "Man" on the net without an explosion of some sort. It's a bit like throwing a match into a dynamite factory. I wonder how happy they are about that.

Mark_S
I imagine they're very happy. When was the last time anyone felt so strongly about Iron Man?

[Camron Amaya]

And "I don't like it, so I'll ignore it" is just something for selfish morons to hide behind.
.

One could also argue that assuming I said "simply ignore the law and do nothing else" is also a trait of a moron. When all I said was following it blindly and hiding the fact you're too scared to do anything about it with the "it's the law it must be followed" excuse is cowardly.

[StoneGold]

And it's not that they simply did not like the law, it was because it goes against the constitution and the freedom of the superheroes as US citizens.

Except 99% of the time, them acting as superheroes does exactly that to everyone else. Costumed vigilantes taking the law into their own hands.

[Eclips0]

I'll grant you interesting, but they've also made it so that you can't mention the words "Iron" and "Man" on the net without an explosion of some sort. It's a bit like throwing a match into a dynamite factory. I wonder how happy they are about that.

Mark_S


The issue is, do more of the fans hate him or love him now? Does anyone have a link to any info on how well his comic is selling?

[Eclips0]

Except 99% of the time, them acting as superheroes does exactly that to everyone else. Costumed vigilantes taking the law into their own hands.

They have to because there exists threats that the normal police cannot handle.

[Gene M.]

They have to because there exists threats that the normal police cannot handle.
Then what's the problem with heroes handling those threats in an official capacity, as opposed to carrying out illegal street justice?

[Eclips0]

Because if the Government can control them and tell them what to do then it's too much power in the hands of the government. And I don't think they should have to be drafted in order to do their jobs. They can be offered training and held to public accountability without being foot soldiers of the government.

[TotalWorldDomination]

One could also argue that assuming I said "simply ignore the law and do nothing else" is also a trait of a moron. When all I said was following it blindly and hiding the fact you're too scared to do anything about it with the "it's the law it must be followed" excuse is cowardly.

And I say that fighting a law by pretending it doesn't exist and planning on just going about things in the "old school" manner that cap and his followers did was both selfish and moronic.

If you oppose a law, you try and support a candidate that also opposes it. if the people of your nation overwhelmingly support it, then you have no choice but to simply continue to make your preference known while obeying the law or get tossed in the clink. If you realy oppose the law that much, I'd think you'd be willing to make the "sacrifice" to make your point.

Except 99% of the time, them acting as superheroes does exactly that to everyone else. Costumed vigilantes taking the law into their own hands.

exactly. Vigilantism removes all of a persons constitutional right to due process.

The issue is, do more of the fans hate him or love him now? Does anyone have a link to any info on how well his comic is selling?

All I know is that I felt almost nothing for him before and now I love him. That counts for something right?

[TotalWorldDomination]

Because if the Government can control them and tell them what to do then it's too much power in the hands of the government. And I don't think they should have to be drafted in order to do their jobs. They can be offered training and held to public accountability without being foot soldiers of the government.

Really? how can one assure public accountability in an un-elected, non-governmental system? Cause If that's the idea, why not just give some private non-governmental group all the nukes in the world. Cause that seems like they could maintain accountability, plus who wants to give the government weapons...

[Eclips0]

Again,
The heroes do not arrest them, they stop them and deliever them to the proper athourities when it's something small time. It doe not interferre with their right to due process.

You can have accountability by saying that they can be brought up on charges and sued just like any other citizen. You do not need to control them in order to insure this.

And I would rather have the power spread out amounst all the heroes to police each other rather then it all concentrated in the hands of the government to use them as weapons.

And no, sometimes working within the system is not a solution is the system is built to stop you from opposing it.

[Eclips0]

And you do know that if an ordinary citizen sees a crime happening and can stop it they are allowed to preform a citzens arrest and hold the person until the police arrive. How is that different from what Spider-man or Daredevil does?

[Mark_S]

I wonder how Tony himself would feel if he got this sort of award, or maybe the Nobel prize for all of what he did in cw? Could he take the award and still deal with how much guilt he feels? And what would the reaction of the rest of the superhero crowd be.

Mark_S

[Eclips0]

Well after Messiah COmplex is over, then hopefully, Cable, Winter Soldier, and Punisher will all meet and "take care" of Tony.

[Holacik]

Well after Messiah COmplex is over, then hopefully, Cable, Winter Soldier, and Punisher will all meet and "take care" of Tony.

Ha, are you trying to say that the Punisher is more of a hero than Iron Man?

[XPac]

Both of your points have been definitively proven wrong.

1) you only have to be a public servant if you are going to be actively involved in Superheroing. Otherwise it's just like gun registration.



If that's true, then why is SHIELD able to call Jessica Jones into service? She's been retired for years.

[Trey]

Both of your points have been definitively proven wrong.

1) you only have to be a public servant if you are going to be actively involved in Superheroing. Otherwise it's just like gun registration.

On a related note- Why should superheroes get to hide behind code-names when every other public official in the world is exposed to the same danger they are? Cops have there last names brandished on there shields, and tony's not even asking them to do that. Cops, Congressmen, Firefighters, ALL public officials except superheroes have there name on the public record. Only tony has access to the "Secret ID" folder, whereas any American can look there accuser in the face and know there name for "regular" crime. if anything, tony violated his principals as a compromise to make the regulars feel more comfortable.

2) I dare you to name one character that is still in prison and has not received a trial. There were temporary detainments during a time of war, and then as soon as Cap and his renegades were taken care of, they were processed and offered an amnesty. If any ex-heroes are still in prison, let us know of them.

A number of heroes in Thunderbolts Prison. Talk to Jack Flag, and ask him if he got a trial

[Eclips0]

No they are pretty much the same, but Iron Man has done worse things. And at least The Punisher is honset about what he does. I think they should both be thrown in jail or charged with capitol offences.

[Holacik]

No they are pretty much the same, but Iron Man has done worse things. And at least The Punisher is honset about what he does. I think they should both be thrown in jail or charged with capitol offences.

The Punisher is a serial killer, nowhere near the same, but what does that say about you when you think he should 'take care' of Tony. Whatever happened to redemption? How many villians are heroes now? Doesn't everyone deserve a second chance?

[Eclips0]

And Tony is a dictator who is responsible for many many deaths. he should be charged with War Crimes and Crimes against Humanity. Which are captial crimes if I remember correctly.

[Holacik]

And Tony is a dictator who is responsible for many many deaths. he should be charged with War Crimes and Crimes against Humanity. Which are captial crimes if I remember correctly.

Crimes against Humanity? Seems like a stretch there. I like how you skipped my question. You complain that people aren't getting trials and yet make statements that certain people should be 'taking care of' without looking at the context of the acts that they've commmited.

[Slaymaster]

The Law: Laws are instituted by governments (national, state, county, etc.) to keep people from hurting one another. (A simplified version of its meaning, yes...)

The People: Self evident. Also known as 'the mob'.

The Government: A countries political system ruling body.

The Gov't is supposed to 'back' the 'will' of 'the people', but of more importance is the FACT that the Gov't is responsible for guiding the country based on what is RIGHT AND JUST. If 'the people' want to hang Speedball because his group f'ed up a fight with criminals, the Gov't should put forward the facts... Nitro blew up everyone in that area of Connecticut.

In other words, as someone else so eloquently pointed out, 'people are stupid' (meaning 'the public', or 'the mob'). I also think the writers went into 'overkill-drive' with the whole public sentiment of 'superheroes are baby killers'... made almost no sense.

As for Captain America and his 'Anti-Registration' side being able to defend themselves with words, that wasn't going to happen... why do you think SHIELD and Commander Hill tried to arrest him two weeks before the law was passed? They didn't want him to present his views if he dissented, they wanted him smeared and detained as fast as possible. (Gov't is VERY GOOD at propaganda...) (CA should've %^&*-slapped Hill on the way out of the Hellicarrier.)

On to another topic, 'training' superheroes has been largely a non-issue since superpowered beings don't use guns or tanks, you know, things the government has. They figured out how to do it on their own, or some just decided not to do anything with their powers at all. Some train with a group (like the X-men) and would have no need of the government.

What Iron Man/Tony Stark did was systematically hunt down and incarcerate any superbeing he could get his hands on who didn't want to join the government. He broke the most fundamental right of any person, and thats freedom from compulsion. Thats right, just like a draft, only for superhumans.

A lot of you Pro-Reg readers may want to think about and read about what governments are for, how they relate to 'the people', and just how much power it has and how much it shouldn't have.

[Eclips0]

Crimes against Humanity? Seems like a stretch there. I like how you skipped my question. You complain that people aren't getting trials and yet make statements that certain people should be 'taking care of' without looking at the context of the acts that they've committed.

Sometimes yes dictators cannot be stopped any other way then with assassination.

[Holacik]

Sometimes yes dictators cannot be stopped any other way then with assassination.

The road to hell is often paved with good intentions. Just ask Tony.

[AllisterH]

Yes they are, in both cases they are laws which are not constitutional and oppose the freedom of american citizens.

Er, you do know Vigilatnism and the acts entailed with it actually INTRUDES on the rights of other people, right?

[Holacik]

The Law: Laws are instituted by governments (national, state, county, etc.) to keep people from hurting one another. (A simplified version of its meaning, yes...)

The People: Self evident. Also known as 'the mob'.

The Government: A countries political system ruling body.

The Gov't is supposed to 'back' the 'will' of 'the people', but of more importance is the FACT that the Gov't is responsible for guiding the country based on what is RIGHT AND JUST. If 'the people' want to hang Speedball because his group f'ed up a fight with criminals, the Gov't should put forward the facts... Nitro blew up everyone in that area of Connecticut.

In other words, as someone else so eloquently pointed out, 'people are stupid' (meaning 'the public', or 'the mob'). I also think the writers went into 'overkill-drive' with the whole public sentiment of 'superheroes are baby killers'... made almost no sense.

As for Captain America and his 'Anti-Registration' side being able to defend themselves with words, that wasn't going to happen... why do you think SHIELD and Commander Hill tried to arrest him two weeks before the law was passed? They didn't want him to present his views if he dissented, they wanted him smeared and detained as fast as possible. (Gov't is VERY GOOD at propaganda...) (CA should've %^&*-slapped Hill on the way out of the Hellicarrier.)

On to another topic, 'training' superheroes has been largely a non-issue since superpowered beings don't use guns or tanks, you know, things the government has. They figured out how to do it on their own, or some just decided not to do anything with their powers at all. Some train with a group (like the X-men) and would have no need of the government.

What Iron Man/Tony Stark did was systematically hunt down and incarcerate any superbeing he could get his hands on who didn't want to join the government. He broke the most fundamental right of any person, and thats freedom from compulsion. Thats right, just like a draft, only for superhumans.

A lot of you Pro-Reg readers may want to think about and read about what governments are for, how they relate to 'the people', and just how much power it has and how much it shouldn't have.
Let me ask you a question. Do you feel it's against a person's constitional rights to have to register their guns?

[Slaymaster]

You can call the Punisher a 'serial killer', but who does he kill? Criminals. (Again, the writers had the Punisher kill a couple hoods attempting to join the Anti-Reg forces... really off-base. The Black Mamba and Diamondback would also have been shot, and come to think of it so would a lot of other heroes who have been villains in the past.)

A 'vigilante' is someone who takes 'the law' into their own hands, metting out justice when the 'system' is inadequate. This is a moral dilemma for some, less so for others if the facts are incontrovertable.

Police and courts were created to settle disputes rather than leaving justice in the individuals hands, mostly because individuals were quick to be subjective instead of objective, and not have all the facts. Unfortunately the system is not infallible, which is why I don't have any qualms over The Punisher metting out justice.

As to villians/criminals getting a 'second chance', that is a very subjective matter. What was the crime, what was the moral state and reason of the criminal? I would just as soon gas half the Thunderbolts team as make a deal with them. (Iron Man/Tony Stark and Mr. Fantastic/Reed Richards stepped over the line in conscripting villians to fight their battles. Yet again, something I believe the writers messed up.)

But the answer is 'no', not all criminals deserve a second chance. (I will admit that if a criminal shows himself of good character before apprehension that a second chance may be in order... maybe.)

[AllisterH]

What Iron Man/Tony Stark did was systematically hunt down and incarcerate any superbeing he could get his hands on who didn't want to join the government. He broke the most fundamental right of any person, and thats freedom from compulsion. Thats right, just like a draft, only for superhumans.

A lot of you Pro-Reg readers may want to think about and read about what governments are for, how they relate to 'the people', and just how much power it has and how much it shouldn't have.

I think you might want to look closely at the Selective Services.

Selective Services (and the Draft itself) has been challenged on two different fronts.

1. On the grounds of it being against the constitution itself with respect to civil liberty.
2. On the grounds of discrimination (only men are subjected to the draft).

In all cases, the Supreme court has ruled that a) Yes the government does legally have the right to shanghai your butt based on the power of Congress being able to call for War and b) yes, the government (the department of defence) does have the right to discriminate in going about fulfilling the mandate for a draft as authorized by Congress.

A Selective services for metahumans will easily pass muster with the Supreme Court. No lawyer worthy of the name would challenge it given they would have to challenge the ORIGINAL Selective Services.

[Eclips0]

Er, you do know Vigilatnism and the acts entailed with it actually INTRUDES on the rights of other people, right?

Good thing that citizens arrests are allowed under the law. Which is basically what the heroes do, Tony is the one who violates rights. All the heroes do is stop them and hand them over to the police and government for trial.

No ones rights are imposed upon by what they do.

And registering a gun which they can have the choice to own is different then making someone register a power they have no way of getting rid of. And when you register a gun you don;t have to use it to serve the government.

[XPac]

I think you might want to look closely at the Selective Services.

Selective Services (and the Draft itself) has been challenged on two different fronts.

1. On the grounds of it being against the constitution itself with respect to civil liberty.
2. On the grounds of discrimination (only men are subjected to the draft).

In all cases, the Supreme court has ruled that a) Yes the government does legally have the right to shanghai your butt based on the power of Congress being able to call for War and b) yes, the government (the department of defence) does have the right to discriminate in going about fulfilling the mandate for a draft as authorized by Congress.

A Selective services for metahumans will easily pass muster with the Supreme Court. No lawyer worthy of the name would challenge it given they would have to challenge the ORIGINAL Selective Services.

Yeah, but the registration is a form of selective service for a UN organization that's technically not even a part of the US governmet. I don't see any court deciding that a US law should be able to draft a US citizen into service for an organization outside of the US. It's flat out ridiculous.

[Eclips0]

I think you might want to look closely at the Selective Services.

Selective Services (and the Draft itself) has been challenged on two different fronts.

1. On the grounds of it being against the constitution itself with respect to civil liberty.
2. On the grounds of discrimination (only men are subjected to the draft).

In all cases, the Supreme court has ruled that a) Yes the government does legally have the right to shanghai your butt based on the power of Congress being able to call for War and b) yes, the government (the department of defence) does have the right to discriminate in going about fulfilling the mandate for a draft as authorized by Congress.

A Selective services for metahumans will easily pass muster with the Supreme Court. No lawyer worthy of the name would challenge it given they would have to challenge the ORIGINAL Selective Services.

And I would argue as a law student that the government should not have the right to force people to fight for them in a war they do not believe in or if they are morally opposed to war.

[Camron Amaya]

If Tony can be tried for "crimes against humanity" then so can pretty much every president and leader in existence. If that's all it takes.

[AllisterH]

Good thing that citizens arrests are allowed under the law. Which is basically what the heroes do, Tony is the one who violates rights. All the heroes do is stop them and hand them over to the police and government for trial.

No ones rights are imposed upon by what they do.

And registering a gun which they can have the choice to own is different then making someone register a power they have no way of getting rid of. And when you register a gun you don;t have to use it to serve the government.

Vigilantism is not actually a crime but as I said, the acts usually involved with it DEFINITELY are though.

re: Citizen's arrest
Depends on the state actually but if you actually look at most of the states there are very tight restrictions.

e.g. Daredevil's tactics of roughing up the mooks, breaking and entering, torture etc. are all NOT sanctioned by any form of Citizen's arrest. Similarly, a citizen's arrest does NOT allow one to use other people's property (spidey throwing a car at somebody), trespass on other people's property (just flying through a person's front door) etc.

Superheroes have FEWER restrictions placed on them than even the police and we purposely have a very publc control of the police force.

[AllisterH]

And I would argue as a law student that the government should not have the right to force people to fight for them in a war they do not believe in or if they are morally opposed to war.

Personally, I agree with this.

However, the Supreme Court has ruled differently and that's based on the power invested in Congress. Apparently, the Constitution itself, based on the Supreme Court's rulings indicate that Congress is invested with the power to actually call for War and it is through this, that the Draft functions.

re: The Initiative
Yes, I do think it is just downright weird that a UN organization was involved with what was/is should be a US-only deal but then again, the number of non-Americans fighting against the law kinda argues for UN involvement (T'challa, Heracles and Cable are all non-americans. By right, the US government should have used EXTREME prejudice to deal with them given that they were fighting the sovereignity of a nation they don't belong to)

[Eclips0]

You are allowed to use force actually as long as the situation requires it and it would prevent a greater crime from happening. And you have to think of what these heroes are upagainst. Them throwing a car at someone is our version of punching someone.

Tony has done worse things then a president and some other presidents should be brought up on charges.

[Camron Amaya]

You are allowed to use force actually as long as the situation requires it and it would prevent a greater crime from happening. And you have to think of what these heroes are upagainst. Them throwing a car at someone is our version of punching someone.

Tony has done worse things then a president and some other presidents should be brought up on charges.

Not really...the biggest difference is we KNOW what Tony's has done ;)

[Slaymaster]

Holacik:
No, I don't think it is against a person's constitutional rights to register firearms.

A better question is,"Is it wrong for a person to defend themself with a firearm against an attacker?" Lets just say that I like the way Ted Nugent thinks...


If you're trying to take this into,"Then why does the SHRA bother you?" it's because people are not guns. SPB's (my new acronym for 'superpowered beings') have names, families, friends, various things that can be used against them by enemies... not the least of which could be their own gov't.

Someone else said that gov't officials, police, military, etc. work with their identities in the open. If a person wishes to do so, I don't have a problem with it... but that doesn't mean you have the right to out someone else. (Federal Witness Protection programs are used for a reason.:rolleyes: )

[Eclips0]

Personally, I agree with this.

However, the Supreme Court has ruled differently and that's based on the power invested in Congress. Apparently, the Constitution itself, based on the Supreme Court's rulings indicate that Congress is invested with the power to actually call for War and it is through this, that the Draft functions.

And this proves that the government can make bad rulings. If I woke up tomorrow and the Government said we all have to join the army I would revolt and so would allot of others.

[XPac]

Personally, I agree with this.

However, the Supreme Court has ruled differently and that's based on the power invested in Congress. Apparently, the Constitution itself, based on the Supreme Court's rulings indicate that Congress is invested with the power to actually call for War and it is through this, that the Draft functions.

Does that apply to minors as well? If not, then there's a bit of a problem here as we're seeing that in the Initiative.

Honestly, there's no way in hell the stuff we're seeing here would be considered legal if it made it's way to the higher courts.

[Slaymaster]

The 'Draft' is totally wrong, and whats worse is the Supreme Court backing it up. They might as well just say,"Every one of you people that lives on American soil... your #$%^ belongs to Uncle Sam. If he says jump, you don't say,"How high?", you just jump as high as you can!"

Not good.:evilangry

I don't know why this is still in effect (if it is), but that #$%^ has got to go.

Don't know how many times I gotta say it... keep an eye on the government, or it gets out of hand and then you're in its hand.:eek:

*I like the way you think, EclipsO.

[AllisterH]

You are allowed to use force actually as long as the situation requires it and it would prevent a greater crime from happening. And you have to think of what these heroes are upagainst. Them throwing a car at someone is our version of punching someone.



Yes and no.

It's all a matter of situation. Take a situation with the Rhino robbing a bank. If Rhino robs the bank and only grabs a couple hundred thousand, using a couple of BMWs to stop him results in the bank getting back his money yet the loss of money due tot he destroyed BMWs exceeds the original crime.

Similarly, when Daredevil breaks a guy's hand so that he can get the location of a drug dealer's den is NOT covered by Citizen's arrest.

Even the classic Spidey where he webs up the bad guy and then leaves is fraught with difficulties. In fact,

Personally, I never understood how DC has the "Superheroes are allowed to testify in court without revealing their identity" got pass the ACLU. The ACLU should've screamed bloody murder.

I still say the biggest supporter of the registration idea would be ACLU and NOT the government itself. THe ACLU in our world goes after the government because it tends to be the ones that are most likely to abuse civil rights but a vigilante like Batman? The ACLU should've been taking to court the entire Gotham PD based on the Bat signal alone.

Seriously, can you imagine how twitchy the ACLU would be? The police flash the Batsignal, tell Batman confidential information, he then breaks into houses, beats up people and then gets them to confess and leaves the whole thing for the police. I swear to god, the ACLU would be having convulsions as this basically gets around the whole damn reason why the police have restrictions placed on the,


re: The Draft
Selective services is set at the voting age last I checked. There are _BIG_ problems with drafting minors and that would never pass muster with the Supreme Court.

However this is more due to Marvel wanting to make the pro-reg side look bad as _INHERENTLY_, the idea that superheroes/vigilantes should be registered is a "DUH, well of course" type of deal to most people.

[Mark_S]

That's a stupid statement. You VOLUNTEER TO SERVE, if you think there might be a risk that you'll be forced to fight for something you don't believe in, DON'T SIGN UP!!!!!!!!!

Still though, I come back from church and you still make me laugh. I like you.

But if you don't sign up what happens? And if you do sign up and just try to walk away there is no power that will stop the Initiative, SHIELD or any other government agency from coming to you and blackmailing you to work for them. Once they know who you really are, where you live... they have you. We are talking about agencies without morals, without limits in what they will do to people. You call a lawyer and maybe a member of your family vanishes. You are audited. Suddenly your credit rating drops. And this is before they get mean about things.

To get back to the title of this thread though, what makes a man a hero? How much he is willing to sacrifice? Tony has sacrificed a lot, I'll admit that. But how much has he forced others to sacrifice?

Mark_S

[Brian M.]

But if you don't sign up what happens? And if you do sign up and just try to walk away there is no power that will stop the Initiative, SHIELD or any other government agency from coming to you and blackmailing you to work for them. Once they know who you really are, where you live... they have you. We are talking about agencies without morals, without limits in what they will do to people.

To get back to the title of this thread though, what makes a man a hero? How much he is willing to sacrifice? Tony has sacrificed a lot, I'll admit that. But how much has he forced others to sacrifice?

Mark_S

I find it kinda funny, not personally talking about oyu Mark_S, but that folks say that superhero's must step in when the cops can't do the job...who do the cops work for? Local, state and federal government...so why shouldn't the superheroes?

[XPac]

I find it kinda funny, not personally talking about oyu Mark_S, but that folks say that superhero's must step in when the cops can't do the job...who do the cops work for? Local, state and federal government...so why shouldn't the superheroes?

They should if they want to.

But really, I don't see the big upside. Basically the US government is now having tax payers pay billions for a service the heroes previously supplied for free. The previous status quo was a more win-win situation if you ask me.

[Refutation]

I will simply say this, Iron Man is my hero and if you don't like that, bite me, but you'll have Register first, I don't let anyone bite me before that. :p :D

I can't believe people get so worked up over this stuff, its like you don't even have any fun reading comic books or enjoy it. It sounds like some of you are close to getting ulcers over this stuff.

[Eclips0]

Yes and no.

It's all a matter of situation. Take a situation with the Rhino robbing a bank. If Rhino robs the bank and only grabs a couple hundred thousand, using a couple of BMWs to stop him results in the bank getting back his money yet the loss of money due tot he destroyed BMWs exceeds the original crime.

Similarly, when Daredevil breaks a guy's hand so that he can get the location of a drug dealer's den is NOT covered by Citizen's arrest.

Even the classic Spidey where he webs up the bad guy and then leaves is fraught with difficulties. In fact,

Personally, I never understood how DC has the "Superheroes are allowed to testify in court without revealing their identity" got pass the ACLU. The ACLU should've screamed bloody murder.

As I said somethings are different in the comics world. But yes if Darevdevil breaks a guys hand for information then yes that is a crime but if he were tro do it to stop the guy from knifing him or something similar then he would be able to under the law.

And as far as your other example it depends on if Rhino put anyones life in danger.

And as far as testifying, the heroes shouldn't.

[Mark_S]

I find it kinda funny, not personally talking about oyu Mark_S, but that folks say that superhero's must step in when the cops can't do the job...who do the cops work for? Local, state and federal government...so why shouldn't the superheroes?

Well you might ask Colossus about his time with SWORD. The government isn't as likely to experiment on regular cops as it is on superheroes.

Mark_S

[Mark_S]

I will simply say this, Iron Man is my hero and if you don't like that, bite me, but you'll have Register first, I don't let anyone bite me before that. :p :D

I can't believe people get so worked up over this stuff, its like you don't even have any fun reading comic books or enjoy it. It sounds like some of you are close to getting ulcers over this stuff.

Passion works both ways. You are passionate about liking IM, many of us are not. Would you deny your own passion as you deny ours?

Mark_S

[XPac]

Well you might ask Colossus about his time with SWORD. The government isn't as likely to experiment on regular cops as it is on superheroes.

Mark_S

Yeah, that's maybe the real problem here.

If the government wasn't so freaking corrupt and untrustworthy, maybe heroes registering wouldn't be as big a deal as it became.

9 times out of 10 when there's a problem in a story involving heroes and government, the fault lays squarely on government. They've proven incompetent at best, and borderline evil at worst. Legal and ethical issues aside, the government kind of sucks.

[Sentinel K]

BTW the general population is idiots and are easily dooped into anything that's been proven a thousand times over. Fear does wonders.

You mean 'are' idiots.

And it's 'duped'.

[Refutation]

Passion works both ways. You are passionate about liking IM, many of us are not. Would you deny your own passion as you deny ours?

Mark_S


Nope. I'm just saying that I wish others would not be so enraged or worked up over this stuff, as it's just fiction. :) I like hearing what others think. I just stay out of the arguement because I don't like getting worked up over it myself. I enjoy the character flaws and all.

[StoneGold]

exactly. Vigilantism removes all of a persons constitutional right to due process.


Which wasn't the point. It was that superheroes regularly ignore all due process themselves. If you have a problem with what Stark was doing, you should have been having a problem with what the heroes were doing all along.

[XPac]

Which wasn't the point. It was that superheroes regularly ignore all due process themselves. If you have a problem with what Stark was doing, you should have been having a problem with what the heroes were doing all along.

I wouldn't say heroes regularly ignore all due process. The way the apprehend criminals in some instances might not be by the book, but they do leave the criminals for the police and courts in most cases.

[AllisterH]

Yeah, that's maybe the real problem here.

If the government wasn't so freaking corrupt and untrustworthy, maybe heroes registering wouldn't be as big a deal as it became.

9 times out of 10 when there's a problem in a story involving heroes and government, the fault lays squarely on government. They've proven incompetent at best, and borderline evil at worst. Legal and ethical issues aside, the government kind of sucks.

I place the blame SQUARELY on the writers for this.

The writers take the EASY way out and that's using the government as the "HEAVY" but they seem to only be able to see it in that specific story and don't see the wider implications. A wolverine vs government black ops organization is par for the course and it makes a good wolverine story but it ignore the question of "why doesnt wolverine get some X-men help"

I think also the explosion of the number of superheroes hasn't also been considered. The reason why writers use the government as the BIG BAD is _BECAUSE_ the government is the Big Bad and this was true in the early days. It's why the Sentinels still exist and what drives the marvel universe. The underdog situation.

Now that the government isn't anywhere as powerful, the idea of government as the heavy shouldn't be used. In fact, the _heroes_ should be categorized as the antagonists and not as the singular Zorro versus the evil government.

The fact though is that most writers WANT to write a superhero as analogous to zorro, lone ranger, etc but don't consider the wider implications for the universe they exist in.

[XPac]

I place the blame SQUARELY on the writers for this.

The writers take the EASY way out and that's using the government as the "HEAVY" but they seem to only be able to see it in that specific story and don't see the wider implications. A wolverine vs government black ops organization is par for the course and it makes a good wolverine story but it ignore the question of "why doesnt wolverine get some X-men help"

I think also the explosion of the number of superheroes hasn't also been considered. The reason why writers use the government as the BIG BAD is _BECAUSE_ the government is the Big Bad and this was true in the early days. It's why the Sentinels still exist and what drives the marvel universe. The underdog situation.

Now that the government isn't anywhere as powerful, the idea of government as the heavy shouldn't be used. In fact, the _heroes_ should be categorized as the antagonists and not as the singular Zorro versus the evil government.

The fact though is that most writers WANT to write a superhero as analogous to zorro, lone ranger, etc but don't consider the wider implications for the universe they exist in.

You can blame the writers if you want... but all we as readers can do is take what they give us and run with it.

The fact is, the government as been built up as corrupt a year and a half before Civil War even started. The have Captain America, and Spider-Man and Thing (the 3 people I consider the conscience of the MU) eventually all arguing that the registration is wrong even though 2 out of 3 did register.

When the writers begin giving me a reason to trust the government, maybe I will. But as of now, I'm being left with the impression that the government was on the verge of killing off the entire hero community (and that was the opinion of the man that spearheaded the PRO side). Given what we see and what we know, it's very hard to support them.

[Eclips0]

Any government I have seen is too corruprt to have the power to control these heroes.

[Kefky]

I can understand defending Tony, hell, I'll do it too, but it's pretty damn obvious that the government's already turning the Initiative into a ticking time bomb. The Initiative COULD have worked if the superhero community HAD been able to work with the government, without things getting out of hand. But the government's already taking full control of all the heroes, and there's nothing they can do about it. Even Tony's pretty much getting powerless. He's breaking his own rules to do his job, and he's even about to get kicked out of SHIELD in the next couple of months.


It's already a lost cause. The only way for the Initiative to stick is for the U.S. to become a dictatorship, with superheroes as government pawns. Tony included.

[Eclips0]

The initiative wouldn't have worked because it is fundementally wrong.

[XPac]

I can understand defending Tony, hell, I'll do it too, but it's pretty damn obvious that the government's already turning the Initiative into a ticking time bomb. The Initiative COULD have worked if the superhero community HAD been able to work with the government, without things getting out of hand. But the government's already taking full control of all the heroes, and there's nothing they can do about it. Even Tony's pretty much getting powerless. He's breaking his own rules to do his job, and he's even about to get kicked out of SHIELD in the next couple of months.


It's already a lost cause. The only way for the Initiative to stick is for the U.S. to become a dictatorship, with superheroes as government pawns. Tony included.

Yeah. The Initiative failed because it was done by the wrong people for the wrong reasons. It was a bad piece of legistation rushed through hot on the heels of an artificialy paranoid public.

Baby steps was what was needed if they had any hope of making something lasting. Maybe asking the heroes to better regulate themselves, while starting some sort of voluntary program with heroes working with the government. If that worked, then perhaps they can expand it and try to do more.

It's not like there was any real need to rush things. All things considered, the heroes were doing an amazingly good job.

[mikekerr3]

The Punisher is a serial killer, nowhere near the same, but what does that say about you when you think he should 'take care' of Tony. Whatever happened to redemption? How many villians are heroes now? Doesn't everyone deserve a second chance?

Redemption requires publicly admitting your crimes, Tony has not.

[Slaymaster]

If you want to know why I get worked up over this issue, its because some things in the MU are applicable to the real world... idealogy, philosophy, theology, etc.

Don't just look at it from the view of a comic world.

[Eclips0]

What I don't get is why was Stampford even the heroes fault? What could the Avengers have done that was better? If Nitro was going to blow up he was going to and nothing would've stopped him.

[Eclips0]

I think Tony took the oppertunity to use this to implement his little reich.

[mikekerr3]

If you want to know why I get worked up over this issue, its because some things in the MU are applicable to the real world... idealogy, philosophy, theology, etc.

Don't just look at it from the view of a comic world.

A question for you pro-regs. How could someone fight this law legally. If you didn't register you were thrown in jail without trail. If you registered you gave critical information to a person who is without honor and lies even to his friends. To fight the law legally you had to surrender fully to the law.

Registering means you have to serve corruption both the Initiative and Shield are run by people with great moral flaws, or not use your abilities for any purpose while being subject to extortion from shield.

Gynrich has said plainly that he is making soldiers not Superheros or Cops. He is building an Army, who is its target?

Also if you choose to refuse being drafted you do to years in prison max. If you refuse to serve Shield or the Initiative it seems you go away forever.

And I think it is very indicative that people keep comparing Meta's to weapons. They are dangerous people they are not inanimate objects.

Can anyone name one agency in the MU that is not corrupt?

[Mark_S]

I think Tony took the oppertunity to use this to implement his little reich.

I thought that at first too, but seriously if he were going for world domination he would have done a better job of it. What Tony did was go aobut 1/4 of the way to world domination and then pull back-all the while telling himself it wasn't power he was after. That was part of the problem really, if you are going to be Doom be Doom, don't be Doom light and expect people not to hate you. It was as if all through cw Tony was channeling Dr. Doom and then just after it was over he stopped.

Mark_S

[TotalWorldDomination]

I think Tony took the oppertunity to use this to implement his little reich.

You just can't get off the Nazi/fascist track can you? Everyone and there Mom at marvel has taken the opportunity to say tony did what he did out of good intentions. His thought bubbles have shown that he's doing it out of good intentions. His books have shown he's doing it out of good intentions. Claiming that he's got some sort of malicious intent is stupid.

There is no way, NO WAY, he took advantage of Stamford to create a "Reich". He's submitting himself to the will of the people, not to his own personal whims. Tony has stood up for democracy and the American way, something the Anti-Reg side was too blind and selfish to see.

The Anti-Reg side was based purely on clinging to a vision of the world that was unattainable and made no sense. It was founded on the logic that what superhumans feel and what they believe in is much more important and logical then what the average person dose. It was an elitist ideology, motivated by a man out of time and a group of scared, stupid, angry people who would rather punch there best friends then sit down and listen to people who have been analyzing the problem from every angle and have come up with the only way that everybody wins.

Now lets examine the intentions and goals of the Pro-Reg side shall we? You've got three of the smartest men in the MU, who were part of the 2 oldest superhero teams in the nation (Hank and Tony from the Avengers, Reed from the FF). You've got the top legal mind in the MU (She-Hulk). You've got the top psychological expert in the MU (Doc Samson). You've got the entire "First Generation" of heroes, with the exception of Cap. Dose any of that indicate they were plotting some dastardly deed? If anything you know that there position was well founded in pure intent, thought and legality.

[Camron Amaya]

You mean 'are' idiots.

And it's 'duped'.

No actualy I meant "is".

But "dooped" was an honest mistake I admit :o

[XPac]

You just can't get off the Nazi/fascist track can you? Everyone and there Mom at marvel has taken the opportunity to say tony did what he did out of good intentions. His thought bubbles have shown that he's doing it out of good intentions. His books have shown he's doing it out of good intentions. Claiming that he's got some sort of malicious intent is stupid.

There is no way, NO WAY, he took advantage of Stamford to create a "Reich". He's submitting himself to the will of the people, not to his own personal whims. Tony has stood up for democracy and the American way, something the Anti-Reg side was too blind and selfish to see.

The Anti-Reg side was based purely on clinging to a vision of the world that was unattainable and made no sense. It was founded on the logic that what superhumans feel and what they believe in is much more important and logical then what the average person dose. It was an elitist ideology, motivated by a man out of time and a group of scared, stupid, angry people who would rather punch there best friends then sit down and listen to people who have been analyzing the problem from every angle and have come up with the only way that everybody wins.

Now lets examine the intentions and goals of the Pro-Reg side shall we? You've got three of the smartest men in the MU, who were part of the 2 oldest superhero teams in the nation (Hank and Tony from the Avengers, Reed from the FF). You've got the top legal mind in the MU (She-Hulk). You've got the top psychological expert in the MU (Doc Samson). You've got the entire "First Generation" of heroes, with the exception of Cap. Dose any of that indicate they were plotting some dastardly deed? If anything you know that there position was well founded in pure intent, thought and legality.

Despite being registered, both Spidey and Thing stated that the SHRA was wrong. In my opinion, Captain America (the moral compass for the whole MU), Spider-Man and Thing are the conscience of the MU.

On the flip side, you have Hank freaking Pym... the guy that's experimenting and cloning on a boy whose murder he covered up, saying something is right.

Based PURELY on the names involved, I'd tend to go with the other side. As smart as Tony and Hank are, they at times do many things highly questionable. And SHe-Hulk flat out said a superhuman registration was unconstitutional right at the start of the whole thing.

As far as Tony standing up for demoracy and the american way... he's a guy that will pay super villains to stage attacks on Congress. He's used mind control, terrorist bombings, and staged assasination attempts. If you feel this is the american way, then you clearly don't have a very high opinion of america.

[TotalWorldDomination]

A question for you pro-regs. How could someone fight this law legally. If you didn't register you were thrown in jail without trail. If you registered you gave critical information to a person who is without honor and lies even to his friends. To fight the law legally you had to surrender fully to the law.

Lets go with no. We've only seen people TEMPORARILY DETAINED in a TIME OF WAR. We have been told that it was temporary by Marvel editorial. I still challenge anyone to think of a single hero being held without charges in 42. there are none.

We can also point out that if you do have a deep and abiding moral problem with the Registration movement, you could do what people have done to protest corrupt laws for generations- go to prison. MLK did it, Ghandi did it, it looked like cap was going to wise up and do it (not before resigning as cap though) but since Cap was the only one of the anti-reg side that rebelled out of a sense of ideology rather then self-centered desires, fear and utterly misguided anti-authority stupidity, I doubt any of them are brave enough to take this route.

Registering means you have to serve corruption both the Initiative and Shield are run by people with great moral flaws, or not use your abilities for any purpose while being subject to extortion from shield.

No it doesn't. Once again, you don't have to be a superhero after you register. Lets say you're deeply morally opposed to registration. You can register, then decline to be a superhero and run for public office on an Anti-Registration platform or try and sue the government over registration related issues. I'd wager you'd lose, but that's because the people are in favor of registration and it's all legally sound (at least by MU law, She-Hulk is the best legal expert we know and she says the law is sound).

Gynrich has said plainly that he is making soldiers not Superheros or Cops. He is building an Army, who is its target?

Ummmm... supervillians? That's a smidgen of a no-brainier, but then again...

Also if you choose to refuse being drafted you do to years in prison max. If you refuse to serve Shield or the Initiative it seems you go away forever.

See my first point.

And I think it is very indicative that people keep comparing Meta's to weapons. They are dangerous people they are not inanimate objects.

There is no categorization for superhumans that we in the real world have. It would be like having someone who has a gun strapped to there hand at all time and can't remove it or someone who has a bomb strapped to there chest and can't take it off. If you saw this person walking down the street would you feel safe if they told you they were under control and had the safety on? Theres no way to take most of these peoples powers away (though Tony and Co are working on it, thank the Lord) and if they were walking down my street I'd be terrified. I live in Manhattan. You know how many times my house has been blown up in the MU?

Can anyone name one agency in the MU that is not corrupt?

Not when there are skrulls invading. Can you name one Superhuman group in the MU that has not been corrupted? Everyone's been corrupted since the Skrulls took over. Wait till Nick Fury's back, is helping run the Initative and He and Tony have beaten those rib chinned jerks back to space and then we'll talk :D

[XPac]

Lets go with no. We've only seen people TEMPORARILY DETAINED in a TIME OF WAR. We have been told that it was temporary by Marvel editorial. I still challenge anyone to think of a single hero being held without charges in 42. there are none.



In TBolts, Norman Osborne clearly stated that suspects were being held for questioning indefinately.

[TotalWorldDomination]

Based PURELY on the names involved, I'd tend to go with the other side. As smart as Tony and Hank are, they at times do many things highly questionable. And SHe-Hulk flat out said a superhuman registration was unconstitutional right at the start of the whole thing.

As far as Tony standing up for demoracy and the american way... he's a guy that will pay super villains to stage attacks on Congress. He's used mind control, terrorist bombings, and staged assasination attempts. If you feel this is the american way, then you clearly don't have a very high opinion of america.

She-Hulk said superhero registration was not Unconstitutional AND she gave a clean bill of health to the SHRA. The CW Daily Bugle included a nice article about it by She-Hulk.

as for tony and the american way- he is doing whatever he can to A) save lives and B) follow the will of the american people. he's trying to save lives. The Anti-Reg side are trying to save themselves. My america is selfless and dose whatever they can to do what's right for everyone, rather then just care about themselves.

[TotalWorldDomination]

In TBolts, Norman Osborne clearly stated that suspects were being held for questioning indefinately.

that's the CSA, not the Initiative and SHEILD. Norman Osborne is a villain, one that tony clearly doesn't like in his position of power and would rather see fall from it.

[XPac]

She-Hulk said superhero registration was not Unconstitutional AND she gave a clean bill of health to the SHRA. The CW Daily Bugle included a nice article about it by She-Hulk.

as for tony and the american way- he is doing whatever he can to A) save lives and B) follow the will of the american people. he's trying to save lives. The Anti-Reg side are trying to save themselves. My america is selfless and dose whatever they can to do what's right for everyone, rather then just care about themselves.

Read it again. She-Hulk said that a SUPERHERO registration would be constitutional, but a SUPERHUMAN registation would not be.

And his way of following the will of the american people is to lie and manipulate it. I don't deny he has good intentions, but to argue that using a terrorist bombing to try and scare the public into going along with him qualifies as the america way twists the notion beyond recogniztion.

And if you think Cap just cares about himself, you clearly no nothing about the character. Which perhaps explains a lot.

[XPac]

that's the CSA, not the Initiative and SHEILD. Norman Osborne is a villain, one that tony clearly doesn't like in his position of power and would rather see fall from it.

We're talking about people being detained without charges, aren't we? That's what Norman was talking about too.

It's not Norman doing it... he was outright complaining about it since the overcrowding meant he was going to get stuck with some of them.

[Eclips0]

You just can't get off the Nazi/fascist track can you? Everyone and there Mom at marvel has taken the opportunity to say tony did what he did out of good intentions. His thought bubbles have shown that he's doing it out of good intentions. His books have shown he's doing it out of good intentions. Claiming that he's got some sort of malicious intent is stupid.
Considering some of the more questionable tactics he used to implement his regime. I think not.

There is no way, NO WAY, he took advantage of Stamford to create a "Reich". He's submitting himself to the will of the people, not to his own personal whims. Tony has stood up for democracy and the American way, something the Anti-Reg side was too blind and selfish to see.
There is proof he was planning it even before stampford, this just gave him the perfect opportunity.

The Anti-Reg side was based purely on clinging to a vision of the world that was unattainable and made no sense. It was founded on the logic that what superhumans feel and what they believe in is much more important and logical then what the average person dose. It was an elitist ideology, motivated by a man out of time and a group of scared, stupid, angry people who would rather punch there best friends then sit down and listen to people who have been analyzing the problem from every angle and have come up with the only way that everybody wins.
No it was based on freedom and rights, and the idea of not becoming a weapon of the government.

[Mark_S]

Lets go with no. We've only seen people TEMPORARILY DETAINED in a TIME OF WAR. We have been told that it was temporary by Marvel editorial. I still challenge anyone to think of a single hero being held without charges in 42. there are none.

We can also point out that if you do have a deep and abiding moral problem with the Registration movement, you could do what people have done to protest corrupt laws for generations- go to prison. MLK did it, Ghandi did it, it looked like cap was going to wise up and do it (not before resigning as cap though) but since Cap was the only one of the anti-reg side that rebelled out of a sense of ideology rather then self-centered desires, fear and utterly misguided anti-authority stupidity, I doubt any of them are brave enough to take this route.



The problem being of course that you are not in a normal prison. You're not even on Earth anymore. Once they capture you, once they put you into a vr setting what else will they do with your mind? Walking into the prison in the negative zone would be a bit like walking into a prison in a 3rd world nation: you had no idea what could be done to you. Or would be done to you. Considering the methods Tony used and then throw Clor into the mix do you really think any of the anti-sra crowd was willing to trust that they would be treated well?

Mark_S

[Eclips0]

Reed and Tony are control freaks, they have to control everyone because they are so scared of the unknown. They are men gripped in fear.

[Mark_S]

that's the CSA, not the Initiative and SHEILD. Norman Osborne is a villain, one that tony clearly doesn't like in his position of power and would rather see fall from it.

Doesn't seem to be doing a lot about it. And arguing that only one part of the government is currupt is a bit like arguing only one part of the ocean has man eating sharks. You don't know which part they are in and they tend to move around a bit. Signing up for the sra is the equivlent of skinny dipping in the ocean and hoping the sharks leave you alone.

Mark_S

[XPac]

Doesn't seem to be doing a lot about it. And arguing that only one part of the government is currupt is a bit like arguing only one part of the ocean has man eating sharks. You don't know which part they are in and they tend to move around a bit. Signing up for the sra is the equivlent of skinny dipping in the ocean and hoping the sharks leave you alone.

Mark_S

Yeah... Tony having issues with Norman's position is pretty funny since Tony is the whole reason he's not sitting in a jail cell as we speak. Hell, this whole new team of TBolts was HIS idea in the first place.

As for the government... the problem is that we're basically seeing every level of government showing this kind of corruption.

In NA, Hill flat out told Wrecker that he had no rights. Wrecker may not be a superhero, but that's really not besides the point.

[ivesaidway2much]

It looks to me like Iron Man was a runner up. Link. (http://bestof.ign.com/2007/stars/6.html)
I think you might want to look closely at the Selective Services.

Selective Services (and the Draft itself) has been challenged on two different fronts.

1. On the grounds of it being against the constitution itself with respect to civil liberty.
2. On the grounds of discrimination (only men are subjected to the draft).

In all cases, the Supreme court has ruled that a) Yes the government does legally have the right to shanghai your butt based on the power of Congress being able to call for War and b) yes, the government (the department of defence) does have the right to discriminate in going about fulfilling the mandate for a draft as authorized by Congress.

A Selective services for metahumans will easily pass muster with the Supreme Court. No lawyer worthy of the name would challenge it given they would have to challenge the ORIGINAL Selective Services.Two things. One, there was no actual war during the whole SHRA mess, it was little more than a superhuman slap-fight. It's very unlikely that metahuman draft would pass the muster for the Supreme Court. Men can be discriminated against if there is legally justifiable reason to because there is no explicit protection in the constitution against discrimination on the basis of sex. However, the 14th amendment expressly prohibits discrimination on the basis of race. There is a much, much higher legal barrier for discrimination by race than there is for discrimination by sex. The existence of mutants (and likely U.S.-born extra terrestrials) would invalidate any metahuman draft.

I'd wager they are ecstatic. They took a character that very few people had strong feelings about one way or another and made him into THE focal point for the entire MU.I don't think ecstatic is the word Marvel would use for Iron Man's plumetting sales. But it does make me smile.:evilsmile

[ivesaidway2much]

She-Hulk said superhero registration was not Unconstitutional AND she gave a clean bill of health to the SHRA. The CW Daily Bugle included a nice article about it by She-Hulk.But she also said mutants are legally considered a race. And implied that the SHRA was only for superheroes. It's hard to know what to believe in that article.

[Eclips0]

What are his sales? Does anyone have a link to info on how Iron Man is selling?

[XPac]

I don't think ecstatic is the word Marvel would use for Iron Man's plumetting sales. But it does make me smile.:evilsmile

Honestly, I wonder sometimes if the Iron Man book wouldn't sell better if they focused more on the "Dr. Doom-ish" Iron Man. He's the one that's getting all the attention.

Have him be an uber jerk in his book, and he can be the comic book version of Ric Flair in his prime. The guy people paid money to see because they loved to hate him.

[Kefky]

Fight registration legally was easy as pie during civil war, but not these days. The heroes missed their chance by making the wrong choice when try tried to fight it.

[Eclips0]

No they made the right choice and no it was not easy as pie. They would've had to register first to in order to do that.

[ivesaidway2much]

What are his sales? Does anyone have a link to info on how Iron Man is selling?
54. IRON MAN
10/01 Iron Man #47 - 35,734
10/02 Iron Man #60 - 35,422
10/03 Iron Man #73 - 34,132
10/04 Iron Man #89 - 33,483
10/05 —
=====
10/06 —
11/06 Iron Man #13 - 76,800 (+111.7%)
12/06 Iron Man #14 - 73,388 ( -4.4%)
01/07 —
02/07 Iron Man #15 - 72,394 ( -1.4%)
03/07 —
04/07 Iron Man #16 - 59,470 ( -17.9%)
05/07 Iron Man #17 - 63,328 ( +6.5%)
06/07 Iron Man #18 - 56,474 ( -10.8%)
06/07 Iron Man #19 - 83,801 ( +48.4%)
07/07 Iron Man #20 - 72,831 ( -13.1%)
08/07 Iron Man #21 - 49,548 ( -32.0%)
09/07 Iron Man #22 - 46,691 ( -5.8%)
10/07 Iron Man #23 - 42,608 ( -8.7%)
6 mnth ( -28.4%)
1 year ( — )
2 year ( — )
3 year ( +27.3%)
4 year ( +24.8%)
I borrowed this from Paul Obrien's The BEAT blog (Link (http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/11/26/marvel-month-to-month-sales-october-2007/)). This is his month-to-month sales ending in October 2007.


Have him be an uber jerk in his book, and he can be the comic book version of Ric Flair in his prime. The guy people paid money to see because they loved to hate him.LOL. That's actually a really good description of the kind of Iron Man I like to read. Whether it's Thor, Ms. Marvel, Nova, Spider-man, etc., I gladly pay to see other characters tell Iron Man what a huge jerk he is. If that happened in his own book, it would jump to the top of my pull list.

[XPac]

Because the law passed to ridiculously fast, the heroes options were kinda limited.

They could either register then try fighting the law (for all the good that would do them, since the government already gets what it wants), or fight the law off of US soil (which means they can't do their job protecting the people), or fight the law on US soil and become criminals.

[SquidSquod]

Are you guys even reading What if? Civil War? Or read it but because you don’t like the premise of Iron Man telling the truth you’re dismissing it.

The corrupt gov’t will overpower the superheroes with Thor clones (are they getting inspiration from Star Wars) without someone checking in the inside. Don’t like the idea and thinking the superheroes will prevail over the evil gov’t. Then you’re hoping to read Carvel or Martel comics, because in Marvel comics project Wideawake is real and dangerous. Iron Man is trying to save superheroes from Armageddon (again, if you’re not getting it – read What If Civil War written by Brubaker + Grievoux + Gage) though his poor communication skill, arrogance and dishonesty fails him eventually.

[TotalWorldDomination]

Read it again. She-Hulk said that a SUPERHERO registration would be constitutional, but a SUPERHUMAN registation would not be.

And his way of following the will of the american people is to lie and manipulate it. I don't deny he has good intentions, but to argue that using a terrorist bombing to try and scare the public into going along with him qualifies as the america way twists the notion beyond recogniztion.

And if you think Cap just cares about himself, you clearly no nothing about the character. Which perhaps explains a lot