Iron Man: IGN'S Hero of the Year!

[psm]

Unalterable laws are only written by nature and they are open to interpretation.

The problem with the SHRA in legal terms is that they made a law that conflicted with the constitution and didn't bother to revoke the bill of rights first.

Marvel and apparently most of the fans want a place ruled by panic where rights are at the whim of the corrupt and everything morally corrupt.

I wouldn't put it that way, but there is some truth to your statement. Marvel (from what I understand) wanted to mimic certain trends of our current political landscape. Especially focusing on laws and events that would add tension and conflict (ergo drama) to the MU.

Being a fan, I find it much more enjoyable reading about fictional characters dealing with unconstitutional laws more than reading the paper about real unconstitutional laws.

[Tobias Drake]

Unalterable laws are only written by nature and they are open to interpretation.

The problem with the SHRA in legal terms is that they made a law that conflicted with the constitution and didn't bother to revoke the bill of rights first.

Marvel and apparently most of the fans want a place ruled by panic where rights are at the whim of the corrupt and everything morally corrupt.

You know, mikekerr, I think I'm starting to understand your side of this. You're right, the SHRA would require a lot more politics than just voting in a new bill. Though I still support the SHRA, Washington would have to do a lot to make it politically feasible.

[XPac]

As I've said many times, the SHRA is in many ways flat out unconstitutional. But I think making it so has many potential storyline advantages.

Obviously it's a springboard for them to have the government do all sorts of shady things.

Beyond that, it's their backdoor if they ever want move a bit back towards the previous status quo (something I don't think they'd do for a long time). They can always just say in the storylines that the courts deemed the Registration unconstitutional, and overtime in the background they can have Congress come up with something a bit more reasonable.

[TotalWorldDomination]

You know, mikekerr, I think I'm starting to understand your side of this. You're right, the SHRA would require a lot more politics than just voting in a new bill. Though I still support the SHRA, Washington would have to do a lot to make it politically feasible.

of course. There would be thousands of pages of legislation, new cabinte-level offices created, billions of dollars spent, hearings from legal and political experts, Blue-Ribbon commissions formed and reports filed... and I'd bet that most of that happened.

of course the political process of the initiative is ludicrous at best (mostly due to marvel having no conception of how real world politics works) so we're forced to subsit on the scraps of reality. I mean, what cabinate department dose the FSI report to? the CSA? DoJ? DoD?

[Tobias Drake]

of course. There would be thousands of pages of legislation, new cabinte-level offices created, billions of dollars spent, hearings from legal and political experts, Blue-Ribbon commissions formed and reports filed... and I'd bet that most of that happened.

of course the political process of the initiative is ludicrous at best (mostly due to marvel having no conception of how real world politics works) so we're forced to subsit on the scraps of reality. I mean, what cabinate department dose the FSI report to? the CSA? DoJ? DoD?

They all report to their own individual branches of a larger organization, the M.A.R.V.E.L., which in turn reports to the Director of M.A.R.V.E.L., one J.O.E. Q.U.E.S.A.D.A. :p

[mikekerr3]

You know, mikekerr, I think I'm starting to understand your side of this. You're right, the SHRA would require a lot more politics than just voting in a new bill. Though I still support the SHRA, Washington would have to do a lot to make it politically feasible.

As a fan of our founding fathers I have a healthy distrust of polititians. I do believe it would be politically feasible, just not constitutionally or morally correct.

I am a solicial liberal, conservative from the borders out and the only thing man made that reaches the level of sacred to me it the Constitution.

[mikekerr3]

of course. There would be thousands of pages of legislation, new cabinte-level offices created, billions of dollars spent, hearings from legal and political experts, Blue-Ribbon commissions formed and reports filed... and I'd bet that most of that happened.

of course the political process of the initiative is ludicrous at best (mostly due to marvel having no conception of how real world politics works) so we're forced to subsit on the scraps of reality. I mean, what cabinate department dose the FSI report to? the CSA? DoJ? DoD?


Those beucratic cases would be hard for mavel to explain. Boring and not worth the effort

But they could have made the SHRA legal with a single line. " The Constitution has been amended to exclude the protections of the bill of rights from Super humans, they are now considered weapons and as such have no rights"

[Tobias Drake]

Therein lies a fundamental problem: Marvel wants to tell a story with this law, but it would take too much politicing...they would have to release an entire Marvel Politics miniseries that just focused on all the congressional hearings in order to make it work. I think they just wanted to breeze past the political aspects and shoot straight to the establishment of the law, and then just handwave it with "Whatever had to happen to make this work, let's just say it happened."

[Eclips0]

It is unconstitutional in many ways and is no justification fro the cirmes Tony commited in support of it.

He does not deserve to be called a hero.

[mikekerr3]

Therein lies a fundamental problem: Marvel wants to tell a story with this law, but it would take too much politicing...they would have to release an entire Marvel Politics miniseries that just focused on all the congressional hearings in order to make it work. I think they just wanted to breeze past the political aspects and shoot straight to the establishment of the law, and then just handwave it with "Whatever had to happen to make this work, let's just say it happened."

Since they were apperently too lazy to write a single line saying the constitutional rights of the Superhumans had been revoked. I will continue assume the the Bill of rights is still in effect, if so every citizen would have the duty to fight such a blatant violation of the Constitution. Every member of the MU US military would be in violation of their oath to support it.

The Oath of Office starts with "I will support and defend the constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic. The precedence of anything that follows is diminished from there on legaly

[Sam T.]

Iron Man is a villain right now....but I look forward to seeing him try and redeem himself soon!

[Fatguy]

48 to 17 are results that I can get behind. I'm a little surprised, with all the noisy anti-Tony voices around here these days.

[Tobias Drake]

Since they were apperently too lazy to write a single line saying the constitutional rights of the Superhumans had been revoked. I will continue assume the the Bill of rights is still in effect, if so every citizen would have the duty to fight such a blatant violation of the Constitution. Every member of the MU US military would be in violation of their oath to support it.

The Oath of Office starts with "I will support and defend the constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic. The precedence of anything that follows is diminished from there on legaly

But they couldn't just use a single line like that, because it would immediately invalidate the SHRA, which was not their intended goal. They would, in one line, completely and entirely turn the SHRA and everything that comes of it evil and unjust and, as a result, uniformly turn the entire audience into anti-Regs, and that was not what they wanted to do. They wanted to make it actually work, which would require a lot more politics than any comic writer is probably willing to dive into.

[AllisterH]

1. People keep saying the SHRA is against the constitution.

2. Superhumans are NOT a race given that two superhumans can and do beget a human child (Luna and Pietro plus Rusty & Skids)

3. Being a superhero is an occupation/choice. As such, being a superhero wouldn't be covered under the constitution.

[mikekerr3]

1. People keep saying the SHRA is against the constitution.

2. Superhumans are NOT a race given that two superhumans can and do beget a human child (Luna and Pietro plus Rusty & Skids)

3. Being a superhero is an occupation/choice. As such, being a superhero wouldn't be covered under the constitution.

Superhero and Superhuman registration are too very separate things. You do not necessarily have a choice on wether to be Superhuman. Superhero registration would be legal. Super Human no.

The Constition considers other things besides race, such as due process, speedy trial, right to representation. Those are my main complaints on constitutional grounds. The minute that War machine told a non-hero meta (Cloud9) she had to register the constitutional complaint was valid. In the MU all Meta's are not vigilante hero's some are just people caught up in the SHRA meatgrinder.

[Eclips0]

1. People keep saying the SHRA is against the constitution.

2. Superhumans are NOT a race given that two superhumans can and do beget a human child (Luna and Pietro plus Rusty & Skids)

3. Being a superhero is an occupation/choice. As such, being a superhero wouldn't be covered under the constitution.

They are a racial minority. a genetically racial one.

[XPac]

1. People keep saying the SHRA is against the constitution.

2. Superhumans are NOT a race given that two superhumans can and do beget a human child (Luna and Pietro plus Rusty & Skids)

3. Being a superhero is an occupation/choice. As such, being a superhero wouldn't be covered under the constitution.

If the SHRA are denying american citizens due process, it goes against the constitution.

Frontline flat out states that unregistered combatants have no rights. And we're seeing mention of people being denied proper due process in TBolts, as well as seeing it first hand in NA.

[jonwes]

They are a racial minority. a genetically racial one.

genetically racial? I think you might be confused on the meaning on one of those two terms.

[Eclips0]

No, I am very clear on both of them.

[mikekerr3]

No, I am very clear on both of them.

Mutants have a genetic difference, Superheros do not necessarily have any genetic changes. Some are completely normal with skill or trch giving them thier powers

[bulbasteve]

Superhero and Superhuman registration are too very separate things. You do not necessarily have a choice on wether to be Superhuman. Superhero registration would be legal. Super Human no.

The Constition considers other things besides race, such as due process, speedy trial, right to representation. Those are my main complaints on constitutional grounds. The minute that War machine told a non-hero meta (Cloud9) she had to register the constitutional complaint was valid. In the MU all Meta's are not vigilante hero's some are just people caught up in the SHRA meatgrinder.

Well it still is superhero registration. First of all tech-based heroes are covered under it. Secondly I'm sure Cloud9 would never have had a problem if she was not so darn high up. I don't think they are particularly looking for non-hero metas. But if the FAA is complaining that they are getting strange blips on their radar that could be anything, it's any good heroes job to go and see what is going on. Of course she always had the option to "retire" anyway.

[mikekerr3]

Well it still is superhero registration. First of all tech-based heroes are covered under it. Secondly I'm sure Cloud9 would never have had a problem if she was not so darn high up. I don't think they are particularly looking for non-hero metas. But if the FAA is complaining that they are getting strange blips on their radar that could be anything, it's any good heroes job to go and see what is going on. Of course she always had the option to "retire" anyway.

The act is called the [b]Super Human Registration Act [b] , It obviously applies to all meta's.

To retire you have to give important personal information to a corrupt government , where it will be held by a liar. Your are thereafter at the mercy of an corrupt agency for the rest of your life.

If War Machine had given Cloud 9 the equivalent of an FAA traffic ticket you would have a point but he said she had to register. She was not acting as a superhero in any what. No crime-fighting just flying around. Any licensing for what she was doing should have been between here and the FAA.

[Zacharius]

Why should heroes care about democracy at all ?

Why not vigilantocracy ?

As for what it is:

In the second half of Civil War: The Confession, was Cap trying to say "You were wrong. I was wrong. But you were more wrong" to Tony?
> >
> > Probably. Writers can't seem to form a good reason to be anti-registration for the life of them, by in large.
>
> Because it's impossible. Even the far right and far left can agree that vigilantism is vile. Vigilantism is fundamentally taking a dump on democracy. Vigilantism is setting yourself up as a little mini-dictator above the laws voted for by the majority. Now, by an large the superpowered vigilantes of the Marvel universe have behaved with incredible judgement and restraint over the years, with only a handful of exceptions such as Wolverine and Punisher.
>
> Indeed, one could make an argument that vigilantocracy has proven superior to democracy in the Marvel universe. Vigilantocracy > democracy can be argued to be a fundamental subtext message of comic books. But it's a message that only works as a subtext, as something that is glossed over by just having the cops chase the misunderstood hero while the misunderstood hero tries to save the world while escaping the cops and not hurting them too badly.
>
> As a glossed over subtext it works just fine and dandy.
>
> But the moment a writer states it outright, it falls apart. No writer can argue outright, or make heroic characters argue outright, that vigilantism is a superior form of government to democracy. It comes across as incredibly arrogant and absurd when stated outright, despite it being the subtext message of every masked vigilante story where said vigilante tries to chase the villain while himself being chased by cops who think the hero is a villain.
>
> It can't be stated outright because it exposes the fundamental disconnect between comics and the real world. In the real world, everyone has flawed judgement. As a result, democracy is the best system available out of many awful choices. Democracy at least allows us to even each other out a little. In the Marvel Universe, vigilantocracy has repeatedly proven superior to democracy, but this can never be stated outright because the heroes themselves are supposed to be lovers of democracy. A love that is really not reconcilable with the way life really works in the Marvel Universe.
>
> That impossibility of reconciliation has not been a problem before CW because it wasn't looked at too closely. But now that it is being looked at, it leaves writers in a pickle. How do you argue for vigilantocracy and claim at the same time that your side represents freedom? You can't, not really. So they do the only thing they can do: have the agents of democracy be vile hypocrites. Make them build cyborg-clones, make them blackmail people, do anything and everything to avoid the detailed look at the issues that would cause Roger's side to expose itself as rule-by-vigilante masked as "rights".(quote by The Mandarin)
>


Vigilantocracy is a word I invented refering to the Homeric/royalist nature of life in comic book universes. At it's heart, comics are really a deeply archaic genre, owing much more to bardic tales and the like than to any modern politically aware form of fiction. It owes most of its way of thinking to Homer, and the rest to Jesus and Moses. The entire idea of the vigilante being right owes itself to old ideas of this demigod being given perfect judgement and power from on high, making his judgement greater than the peasants. The peasants in such stories are little more than extras, and if they dare to speak against the demidog/chosen of god they are automatically wrong.

Captain America is basically the answer to the question: "what if Jesus was an all-American star quaterback looking guy?"
Spider-Man is another Jesus type, forever crucified by the ignorant masses too stupid to understand that he is their savior.
Iron Man is more Prometheus than Jesus, but in the end he's still part of the same elitist genre.

Homeric type stories of characters like Achilles and Beowulf seem very different from stories of the meek Jesus or even the divine-messenger-boy Moses, but they share in common the central idea that the mass of peasants are always wrong and the divinely chosen one/demigod is always right or simply above the peasant.

The odd thing about comics is you will have heroes fighting ostensibly for democracy, yet they are deeply entrenched in an utterly anti-democratic literary tradition. Comics are simply a reworking of the bardic tales where the hero is all that matters and the masses are fools. Beowulf isn't going to fight for democracy. He's a greater general and warrior than all the voters put together. Moses isn't going to fight for democracy. He's right and the masses are wrong and he knows it because his wisdom and right to rule where given to him by the divine. Jesus isn't going to fight for democracy, he is the son of God and while he has great love and tremendous compassion for the masses, ultimately they are inferior and must accept his path without any voting silliness.
So if you insist on having that type of character fight for democracy, the story only works if very much gloss over the details and just go along with the ride without thinking too hard.(quote by The Mandarin)

[bulbasteve]

The act is called the [b]Super Human Registration Act [b] , It obviously applies to all meta's.

I know it is, what I am saying it extends BEYOND metas, hence it is not simply a superhuman registration act.

To retire you have to give important personal information to a corrupt government , where it will be held by a liar. Your are thereafter at the mercy of an corrupt agency for the rest of your life.

Geez, you may as well use that excuse not to do your taxes in THIS government. We have never seen the personal information of anyone retired used in any bad way, what might happen is really no good excuse for not following the law....again, unless you say we shouldn't be doing our taxes :p

If War Machine had given Cloud 9 the equivalent of an FAA traffic ticket you would have a point but he said she had to register. She was not acting as a superhero in any what. No crime-fighting just flying around. Any licensing for what she was doing should have been between here and the FAA.

Of course Cloud 9 has to register, she is a superhuman! I am saying they were not hunting her down or anything. And hey she could have gone to simply be trained to use her powers, too bad she signed up for avengers training, huh?

[TotalWorldDomination]

48 to 17 are results that I can get behind. I'm a little surprised, with all the noisy anti-Tony voices around here these days.

I'm pretty shocked too. Have this same poll 1 year ago and you could easily flip these numbers. I guess IGN knew what they were talking about huh?

[mikekerr3]

I know it is, what I am saying it extends BEYOND metas, hence it is not simply a superhuman registration act.

If it was limited to Superheros i would buy the concept. Nut it extended to people who are ming their own business.


Geez, you may as well use that excuse not to do your taxes in THIS government. We have never seen the personal information of anyone retired used in any bad way, what might happen is really no good excuse for not following the law....again, unless you say we shouldn't be doing our taxes :p

If our goverment was as evil as the goverment in the MU i would be paying my taxes with a rifle.




Of course Cloud 9 has to register, she is a superhuman! I am saying they were not hunting her down or anything. And hey she could have gone to simply be trained to use her powers, too bad she signed up for avengers training, huh?

Who could have trained her how to fly on a mindcontroled cloud. The volunteered to be a Superhero they are training hero to be a Soldier. The only intent she has stated is that she just wanted to fly.

Do you be lieve that she could just qquit and fly away with being hunted down?

[Eclips0]

Why should heroes care about democracy at all ?

Why not vigilantocracy ?

As for what it is:

They are not vigilanties, this has been covered more times then I can count now.

They do care about democracy as we also already talked about.

Democracy out of control can be a disaster. I like Controlled Democracy. It keeps the publuic from doing dangerous irrational things.

[Bryson the Red]

They are not vigilanties, this has been covered more times then I can count now.

They do care about democracy as we also already talked about.

Democracy out of control can be a disaster. I like Controlled Democracy. It keeps the publuic from doing dangerous irrational things.

Ok, without going back to look it up, can you tell me how you proved that Superheroes / Anti-Registation Heroes are not vigilantes?

[Eclips0]

Ok, without going back to look it up, can you tell me how you proved that Superheroes / Anti-Registation Heroes are not vigilantes?

:evilsmile You don;t have to read that far back trust me.

[Mark_S]

Ok, without going back to look it up, can you tell me how you proved that Superheroes / Anti-Registation Heroes are not vigilantes?

I think that may be a gray area depending upon who is writing the title. In title A a hero like Batman may be going after a drug kingpin. He eaves drops, roughs up informants and so on and actually does produce evidence that he turns over to the DA. The DA may not be able to act directly on the evidence but it can point him toward where to look. It is a vigilante activity, but not as extreme as say the Punisher kiling someone. In that same title a supervillain may come after the hero, and in that case it is not vigilante activity at all, merely self defense.
Over in title B the Juggernaut comes to town and (as in one issue of Spiderman) goes after Madame Web. Spiderman fights him, this is vigilante activity as well, but in this case the police welcome it. And while he is fighting the Juggernaut (and the Juggernaut is leveling buildings and such, and I say that him taking out buildings is not Spiderman's fault) the police are desperately calling the FF or the Avengers. In both cases you have vigilante activity and in both cases only someone completely married to the letter of the law would want Batman or Spiderman arrested and charged.

Mark_S

[TotalWorldDomination]

Democracy out of control can be a disaster. I like Controlled Democracy. It keeps the publuic from doing dangerous irrational things.

Yeah, like being truly free ;)


Also, Insisting you've proved something when none of us remember it and insisting it's there somewhere is not proving something. so if you might do the argument a tiny favor, find it and quote yourself, because I certainly can't find it.

[Eclips0]

Yeah, like being truly free ;)


Also, Insisting you've proved something when none of us remember it and insisting it's there somewhere is not proving something. so if you might do the argument a tiny favor, find it and quote yourself, because I certainly can't find it.

No like acting out of fear and irrationality and causing harm which it has on more then one occasion.

And I am not going to quote everytime someone asks, they can read back like anyone else.

[XPac]

Yeah, like being truly free ;)




True democracy is overrated. Honestly, the average citizen is to lazy and apathetic to even bother coming to an informed decision about anything.

In real life, something like the SHRA could be dozens and dozens of pages long. I can almost promise you that 99% of the people that would even bother voting on the thing wouldn't even come close to bothering to read it.

We have a representative democracy for a reason. We have a constitution that defends itself from what's known as the tyranny of a masses for a reason.

What if the will of the people dictated that mutants be put into concentration camps. Would the notion of truelly being free really apply there?

[TotalWorldDomination]

WHAT THE HELL!


Ok someone needs their head examined and shoved up their rear end for this huge blunder.

Why do they need there head examined first? to see if it will fit? ;)

Iron man has done nothing in the past year to atone for any5thing he has done. In fact he's actually done worse. I mean im looking at New Warriors this month and He's actually making a team of kids? Kids? And for what? to make SHIELD look cool to kids? Arrogant, pompass...

Why not? You've got the Boy-Scouts, the JROTC, and a verity of Youth-related programs from the PAL (Police Athletic League) to Space Camp for NASA. I'd be floored if these kids were going to be sent out to fight crime, quite the opposite in fact- the purpose is to counter the growing popularity of the New Warriors, a group that advocates running right into the battle.


Oh and great job with that Initiative, getting their asses handed to them every time they go out on a mission when the new warriors Handle Zodiac without even having much "powers" between them.

Every Time? Hardly. They saved the president from HYDRA, nearly took out the hulk with the Shadow Initiative, captured Dragon Man and Initiative teams across the country are doing there jobs with deft aplomb.

Oh and lets not forget the T-bolts, murdering psychopaths hunting down hero's and fighting amongest one another great job their Iron Man.

The T-Bolts hunt renegade vigilantes and are not exactly tony's cup of tea. But they do serve a purpose and do so WONDERFULLY. :)

[TotalWorldDomination]

True democracy is overrated. Honestly, the average citizen is to lazy and apathetic to even bother coming to an informed decision about anything.

In real life, something like the SHRA could be dozens and dozens of pages long. I can almost promise you that 99% of the people that would even bother voting on the thing wouldn't even come close to bothering to read it.

We have a representative democracy for a reason. We have a constitution that defends itself from what's known as the tyranny of a masses for a reason.

What if the will of the people dictated that mutants be put into concentration camps. Would the notion of truelly being free really apply there?

I shockingly agree. Still, I don't agree with having unalterable un-re-definable truths like our good friend Eclips0 has advocated. The constitution can be changed through the constitutional process, and laws can be interpreted. To have true unfettered freedom is to have chaos. after all, if I was free to start throwing grenades into crowded malls, we'd be in severe trouble.

[XPac]

The T-Bolts hunt renegade vigilantes and are not exactly tony's cup of tea. But they do serve a purpose and do so WONDERFULLY. :)

Where is this notion about the TBolts being even half way competent coming from? Seriously... they can BARELY handle a street level character they vastly overpower on paper. They manage to barely suceed, all the while intentionally causing colateral damage, with members attacking innocent bystandards AND even their government handlers.

For all the criticism the New Warriors get, the TBolts outshine them in that their acts of creating collateral damage and endangering innocent bystandards are actually intentional.

[mikekerr3]

The T-Bolts hunt renegade vigilantes and are not exactly tony's cup of tea. But they do serve a purpose and do so WONDERFULLY. :)

Except for murdering a couple of cops, eating a mans arm, destroying property to make their actions against Jack Flagg more justified. And beating on wounded prisoner they are doing fine job.

[Mark_S]

Why not? You've got the Boy-Scouts, the JROTC, and a verity of Youth-related programs from the PAL (Police Athletic League) to Space Camp for NASA. I'd be floored if these kids were going to be sent out to fight crime, quite the opposite in fact- the purpose is to counter the growing popularity of the New Warriors, a group that advocates running right into the battle.

If it were only a youth group there would be no real problem, but in this case I suspect that people in the government like Gyrich are using it as a scouting camp for future operatives, making note of who the kids are, what there home life is like, working up psycological profiles so that as the kids enter the teen years and are still mentally maleable they can more easily be taken in and conditioned to follow orders for the good of the cause. Silly? Maybe. But if you look at the mu US government you really can't tell me it wouldn't happen. What the sra has done is made Gyrich's life a lot easier, he can get them young now, before they really have time to develope any independent ideas of what freedom and democracy can be like. We see a little of that in Camp Hammond and as time goes on we should see more of it.


Mark_S

[Eclips0]

I shockingly agree. Still, I don't agree with having unalterable un-re-definable truths like our good friend Eclips0 has advocated. The constitution can be changed through the constitutional process, and laws can be interpreted. To have true unfettered freedom is to have chaos. after all, if I was free to start throwing grenades into crowded malls, we'd be in severe trouble.

I never said unfettered freedom, if anything I said democracy run amok is highly dangerous.

But you cannot limit only one group's freedoms, thats discrimination and goes against what the constitution stands for.

[mikekerr3]

If it were only a youth group there would be no real problem, but in this case I suspect that people in the government like Gyrich are using it as a scouting camp for future operatives, making not of who the kids are, what there home life is like, working up psycological profiles so that as the kids enter the teen years and are still mentally maleable they can more easily be taken in and conditioned to follow orders for the good of the cause. Silly? Maybe. But if you look at the mu US government you really can't tell me it wouldn't happen.

Mark_S

The ones with bad home lives could be sent for help, someplace like the nice place that created Gamma force.

The other organizations like JROTC serve purposes other that PR.

I don't know about the Boy scouts as neither my sons our my younger sef were eligible for admission. I was in JROTC for a couple of years and thier main educational effort was on personal responsibilities

We don't know about this one but seeing it is Initiative and therefore under Gyrich I would have my suspicions.

[bulbasteve]

If it were only a youth group there would be no real problem, but in this case I suspect that people in the government like Gyrich are using it as a scouting camp for future operatives, making note of who the kids are, what there home life is like, working up psycological profiles so that as the kids enter the teen years and are still mentally maleable they can more easily be taken in and conditioned to follow orders for the good of the cause. Silly? Maybe. But if you look at the mu US government you really can't tell me it wouldn't happen. What the sra has done is made Gyrich's life a lot easier, he can get them young now, before they really have time to develope any independent ideas of what freedom and democracy can be like. We see a little of that in Camp Hammond and as time goes on we should see more of it.


Mark_S

Gyrich isn't involved, it's a SHIELD program, he hates SHIELD! Heck if Ant-Man is any indication (and it is!) they are hardly running out of SHIELD agents or anything, it's the best of the best of every law enforcement agency on earth (oh and Eric :p)

[TotalWorldDomination]

If it were only a youth group there would be no real problem, but in this case I suspect that people in the government like Gyrich are using it as a scouting camp for future operatives, making note of who the kids are, what there home life is like, working up psycological profiles so that as the kids enter the teen years and are still mentally maleable they can more easily be taken in and conditioned to follow orders for the good of the cause. Silly? Maybe. But if you look at the mu US government you really can't tell me it wouldn't happen. What the sra has done is made Gyrich's life a lot easier, he can get them young now, before they really have time to develope any independent ideas of what freedom and democracy can be like. We see a little of that in Camp Hammond and as time goes on we should see more of it.


Mark_S

I'm going to go with no, considering those kids had SHIELD patches, and as Gyrich has said SHIELD and he do not get along- thus it would seem likely that HPG has no involvement in the Young Guardians program.

I'd like to also point out that programs like the JROTC, technically in the Chain of Command of the Army or Navy (depending on the kind of JROTC), has direct rules against sharing information with other parts of the Army or Navy for recruiting purposes. I'd wager the same holds true for the YG's.

And when did Gyrich show a contempt for democracy? He's been shown as someone who loves America and Americans and hates everything else- his constant service over the years under members of both parties AND even getting Captain America's seal of approval as someone who's a patriot would indicate that.

[TotalWorldDomination]

Gyrich isn't involved, it's a SHIELD program, he hates SHIELD! Heck if Ant-Man is any indication (and it is!) they are hardly running out of SHIELD agents or anything, it's the best of the best of every law enforcement agency on earth (oh and Eric :p)

Damn you beat me!

[Mark_S]

Gyrich isn't involved, it's a SHIELD program, he hates SHIELD! Heck if Ant-Man is any indication (and it is!) they are hardly running out of SHIELD agents or anything, it's the best of the best of every law enforcement agency on earth (oh and Eric :p)

I'd like to believe that. But really, since Gyrich hates SHIELD so much I don't think we can believe that he doesn't have agents in that agency, just as I don't think we can believe that SHIELD doesn't have agents in Gyrich's agency and so on and so on. These agencies have the moral standings of crime syndicates and look upon each other as at best friendly rivals. I'm sure that there is not a report about the kids that crosses Tony's desk that doesn't cross Gyrich and half a dozen other agencies desks before or after he gets it.
Also there is the character of Tony himself, he tends to either control things completely or let them fall apart completely. Once the kids aren't interesting to him any more people like Hill or Guantlet will take over and that'll be it for those kids.

Mark_S

[TotalWorldDomination]

I'd like to believe that. But really, since Gyrich hates SHIELD so much I don't think we can believe that he doesn't have agents in that agency, just as I don't think we can believe that SHIELD doesn't have agents in Gyrich's agency and so on and so on. These agencies have the moral standings of crime syndicates and look upon each other as at best friendly rivals. I'm sure that there is not a report about the kids that crosses Tony's desk that doesn't cross Gyrich and half a dozen other agencies desks before or after he gets it.
Also there is the character of Tony himself, he tends to either control things completely or let them fall apart completely. Once the kids aren't interesting to him any more people like Hill or Guantlet will take over and that'll be it for those kids.

Mark_S

What's wrong with Gauntlet? Maria Hill, I'd be worried about. Because she's a Skrull. But Gauntlet? Seems like an OK guy Civilians are concerned

[Bryson the Red]

Where is this notion about the TBolts being even half way competent coming from? Seriously... they can BARELY handle a street level character they vastly overpower on paper. They manage to barely suceed, all the while intentionally causing colateral damage, with members attacking innocent bystandards AND even their government handlers.

For all the criticism the New Warriors get, the TBolts outshine them in that their acts of creating collateral damage and endangering innocent bystandards are actually intentional.

I think the Thunderbolts serve a very real purpose, but it's not really bringing people in. Their purpose is a deterrent. They scare would-be vigilantes into registering, because they don't want to people like Vemon and Bullseye coming after them with no other heroes to go to for help. They may prove to be inept (for some reason that is a little beyond me) time and time again, but they are still doing some pretty scary stuff, enough to keep the rookies scared.

[XPac]

I think the Thunderbolts serve a very real purpose, but it's not really bringing people in. Their purpose is a deterrent. They scare would-be vigilantes into registering, because they don't want to people like Vemon and Bullseye coming after them with no other heroes to go to for help. They may prove to be inept (for some reason that is a little beyond me) time and time again, but they are still doing some pretty scary stuff, enough to keep the rookies scared.

I actually think them being inept is just good writing.

These guys are villains... if you look at their past track record, they have all made careers out of losing to heroes 99.99% of the time. The idea that they magically should become competent and effective now that they are on government pay roll is kinda silly.

[XPac]

I'm going to go with no, considering those kids had SHIELD patches, and as Gyrich has said SHIELD and he do not get along- thus it would seem likely that HPG has no involvement in the Young Guardians program.



If Stature is any indicator, Stark doesn't have problems using minors either. Or at least he doesn't have a problem with it when HE's the using them.

[Bryson the Red]

I actually think them being inept is just good writing.

These guys are villains... if you look at their past track record, they have all made careers out of losing to heroes 99.99% of the time. The idea that they magically should become competent and effective now that they are on government pay roll is kinda silly.

No I would totally agree with you if it was just one of them, but a whole team of them should be able to do something. How am I supposed to believe that these guys can go toe to toe with Spider-Man and Daredevil (not winning of course), but not do so hot when they combine forces against people like Steel Spider?

[mikekerr3]

And when did Gyrich show a contempt for democracy? He's been shown as someone who loves America and Americans and hates everything else- his constant service over the years under members of both parties AND even getting Captain America's seal of approval as someone who's a patriot would indicate that.


His covering up a death due to negligence, cloning the victim without permission. having another held by a corrupt Psycologist in a mental hospital. Those sound more apprprioate for the Soviet Union. He shows contempt for law, decency and the Constitution.

Those are just in the last few issues. Gyrich is loyal to the Government not the country and most definitely not anything the country is supposed to stand for.

Its hard to say someone who has no respect for human rights has any real love of America.

[mikekerr3]

What's wrong with Gauntlet? Maria Hill, I'd be worried about. Because she's a Skrull. But Gauntlet? Seems like an OK guy Civilians are concerned

I think Guantlet is trying to do his best but is out of his league. he is not experienced enough to handle a platoon of real basic trainees without supervision much less a group of Meta's.

If I remember right He is a fairly low ranking NCO.

[Silver Knight]

Why do they need there head examined first? to see if it will fit? ;) [QUOTE] No so we can see why they would say such a stupid thing, then we make sure they cant say it again by stick it up their, well you know what


[QUOTE] Why not? You've got the Boy-Scouts, the JROTC, and a verity of Youth-related programs from the PAL (Police Athletic League) to Space Camp for NASA. I'd be floored if these kids were going to be sent out to fight crime, quite the opposite in fact- the purpose is to counter the growing popularity of the New Warriors, a group that advocates running right into the battle.[QUOTE]

Yeah, those groups arnt run by the goverment, thus they arnt in comparission. And who knows they might be going out sooner or later. This is just stage 1 in Tony's master plan to raise a generation of superhumans that are totally loyal to him and his word. Also like I said he's doing it to make SHIELD look cool. Yeah the "new" New Warriors rush in, but they train themselfs and know what to do, the Initiative punks got their heads handed to them so to speak.

[QUOTE]
Every Time? Hardly. They saved the president from HYDRA, nearly took out the hulk with the Shadow Initiative, captured Dragon Man and Initiative teams across the country are doing there jobs with deft aplomb.[QUOTE]

I ment the kids not the 50 state initiative groups.

[QUOTE]
The T-Bolts hunt renegade vigilantes and are not exactly tony's cup of tea. But they do serve a purpose and do so WONDERFULLY. :)


Ok Tony cant say their not his cup of tea when he's the one who released the villians in the first place! I mean you should have read what Tony said about Norman in the Civil War files one shot. He said oh he's so gifted and smart, and its a real shame he's on the wrong side of the law.

COMON! The guy is a know Murderer, psycho, lunatic, and tony's perfectly ok to just send him out into the field. Thats either sheer arrogance, stupidity, or flat out carelessness.

[TotalWorldDomination]

I think Guantlet is trying to do his best but is out of his league. he is not experienced enough to handle a platoon of real basic trainees without supervision much less a group of Meta's.

If I remember right He is a fairly low ranking NCO.

He's a Sergeant if I recall correctly, but I doubt he's a buck sergeant. His reputation as presented makes him sound like he's got some years in the service under his belt. Then again, If he was a more advanced NCO I doubt slott would have said it. his knowledge of military protocol seems... limited.

[bulbasteve]

Yeah, those groups arnt run by the goverment, thus they arnt in comparission.

JROTC is run by the government, that is why he brought it up afterall! :D

Ok Tony cant say their not his cup of tea when he's the one who released the villians in the first place! I mean you should have read what Tony said about Norman in the Civil War files one shot. He said oh he's so gifted and smart, and its a real shame he's on the wrong side of the law.

COMON! The guy is a know Murderer, psycho, lunatic, and tony's perfectly ok to just send him out into the field. Thats either sheer arrogance, stupidity, or flat out carelessness.

Well Norman was acting much less crazy when Moonstone wasn't messing with his drugs. This seems to be the textbook example of when someone deserves a second chance, afterall all as you said it was mental disorder.

Of course he isn't out in a field (though equally crazy people are)...and as some people have already stated here, Tony is not their biggest fans. Plus it was Hill who was in charge of the Thunderbolts originally, in CW she overroad Tony and ordered them to chase after Spidey even though Tony didn't want them to.

[Eclips0]

I would be all for giving Tony a seocnd chance as a hero if they would just write him admitting publically what he did and apologizing and facing charges,

[Silver Knight]

JROTC is run by the government, that is why he brought it up afterall! :D[QUOYE] Oh boy one, just semantics



[QUOTE]Well Norman was acting much less crazy when Moonstone wasn't messing with his drugs. This seems to be the textbook example of when someone deserves a second chance, afterall all as you said it was mental disorder.

Of course he isn't out in a field (though equally crazy people are)...and as some people have already stated here, Tony is not their biggest fans. Plus it was Hill who was in charge of the Thunderbolts originally, in CW she overroad Tony and ordered them to chase after Spidey even though Tony didn't want them to.

Second chance? Ok do the words "Psycho Murderer" even register in your head? Ok sure their can be some magic drug that can make Norman sane for a bit. but what happens when that stops working? Let me answer that: VERY BAD THINGS! Also thats another thing Moonstone is a backstabbing, murdering b-. Yet she's like co-leading, real smart.

Also Like I said, he cant say "Oh I dont like them" When it was his decision to let them out. And he acted so happy and full of himself when Colorado asked the T-bolts to be their team. If he doesnt like them then why was he so glad? Man this is chessing me off.

[bulbasteve]

Oh boy one, just semantics

And Space Camp is run by the Alabama state government! (cause...that's what state it is in ya know? Bet ya didn't know! Unless you looked it up on wikipedia...which I totally did!). And you know ironically enough it is actually the Boy Scouts which is the most controvercial on that list because of how influential the LDS church is in it, in fact as an Atheist I can't even BE a boyscout (thank god I'm not a gay atheist or I would be doubly in trouble!). So... GO GOVERNMENT! (well...go UN in this case)

Second chance? Ok do the words "Psycho Murderer" even register in your head? Ok sure their can be some magic drug that can make Norman sane for a bit. but what happens when that stops working? Let me answer that: VERY BAD THINGS! Also thats another thing Moonstone is a backstabbing, murdering b-. Yet she's like co-leading, real smart.

He is only crazy because of the Goblin serum :( And do you know what happens when bad things happen? Let me answer that: they fire their nanochains and they are paralyzed for life, just ask Bullseye...oh wait you probably can't cause he has brain damage too! So even you evil evil people who don't care about these sick individuals should be in support of it, bleeding hearts and stone hearts unite for the Thunderbolts :D

Also Like I said, he cant say "Oh I dont like them" When it was his decision to let them out. And he acted so happy and full of himself when Colorado asked the T-bolts to be their team. If he doesnt like them then why was he so glad? Man this is chessing me off.

How did he "let them out"? He is in charge of SHIELD, the Thunderbolts are the CSA's baby. And as I said even in Civil War they were shown to be led by Maria Hill (who was basically let have control of everything in CW) and not Stark. Hell Tony BEAT THEM UP over in Nova, it is more than just not liking them.

And heck when has Spider-Man or Luke Cage beat up the Thunderbolts? Hm? Yeah I thought so! Never! Tony is in fact the worlds last-best hope against them! GO TONY! :D

[mikekerr3]

He's a Sergeant if I recall correctly, but I doubt he's a buck sergeant. His reputation as presented makes him sound like he's got some years in the service under his belt. Then again, If he was a more advanced NCO I doubt slott would have said it. his knowledge of military protocol seems... limited.


It may have been my imagination but I thought I saw Staff Sargents Chevrons on him in one image. Senior enough to be a DI but too junior to set training policy. A Di is not just an NCO grabbed out of a unit a put to work they are trained and skill professionals. Evidently Gyrich or somebody decide to through Gauntlet in a the deep end without a life preserver.

No Qualified supervision no training staff. And obviously nobody responsible for Safety. The precuations taken were inadequate for people training with marker bullets much less weapons like the Tactigon.

What they did was give a kid with a live weapon the worst possible scare without preparation. I wonder if there next training exercise will invole giving the kids LSD on the firing range.

The only real fault I have with Guantlet though is the cover-up. He would have to report it though his military chain of command anyway reguardless of what Gyrich said. If he doesn't he is a criminal.

[Arilou]

RE: Norman Osborn.

On his meds/off the serum he's a vicious, immoral, cold-blooded, arrogant, clever bastard. I wouldn't exactly put murder beyond him even when sane, however, what he isn't (when sane) is a psycho killer: He'll kill when it is useful to do so.

Which makes him a decent choice for the Thunderbolts. Essentially as he is very much expendable.

Now, when he goes off his meds he becomes unpredictable and starts killing random people. That's bad. But again, expendable: All the Thunderbolts are.

[XPac]

RE: Norman Osborn.

On his meds/off the serum he's a vicious, immoral, cold-blooded, arrogant, clever bastard. I wouldn't exactly put murder beyond him even when sane, however, what he isn't (when sane) is a psycho killer: He'll kill when it is useful to do so.

Which makes him a decent choice for the Thunderbolts. Essentially as he is very much expendable.

Now, when he goes off his meds he becomes unpredictable and starts killing random people. That's bad. But again, expendable: All the Thunderbolts are.

If the US government is at the point where they're viewing human lives as expendable, then it just proves that they are as evil as Norman is. So I suppose from that perspective, it doesn't make a huge difference who they put in charge.

[Brian M.]

Uh that poll has some interesting results....

[Shyft]

He is only crazy because of the Goblin serum :( And do you know what happens when bad things happen? Let me answer that: they fire their nanochains and they are paralyzed for life, just ask Bullseye...oh wait you probably can't cause he has brain damage too! So even you evil evil people who don't care about these sick individuals should be in support of it, bleeding hearts and stone hearts unite for the Thunderbolts :D



How did he "let them out"? He is in charge of SHIELD, the Thunderbolts are the CSA's baby. And as I said even in Civil War they were shown to be led by Maria Hill (who was basically let have control of everything in CW) and not Stark. Hell Tony BEAT THEM UP over in Nova, it is more than just not liking them.

And heck when has Spider-Man or Luke Cage beat up the Thunderbolts? Hm? Yeah I thought so! Never! Tony is in fact the worlds last-best hope against them! GO TONY! :D

Its a sad twisted Marvel world when comic fans are arguing FOR Norman Osbourne being in charge of a bunch of psycho's, whilst arguing the likes of Spiderman should be in jail.

And isnt Bullseye paralysed because Songbird, bright girl that she is (or not) RELEASED him, but American Eagle kicked his ass? So if it wasnt for an unregistered hero, a nut job would be loose, courtesy of the Government?

And please stop this "Tony isnt in charge of the CSA!" line. Tony is in a position of authority on a par with, if not higher, than the UN Secretary General. He managed to convince the President to sign up to the SHRA rather than Project Wideawake. To suggest that he couldnt succesfully lobby for the THunderbolts to be replaced with a civilian superhero team ala The Order, is horsecrap.

[XPac]

Its a sad twisted Marvel world when comic fans are arguing FOR Norman Osbourne being in charge of a bunch of psycho's, whilst arguing the likes of Spiderman should be in jail.



Yeah... it does sometimes feel like Bizarro world or something when you're forced to actually listen to the same people defend Norman being out of jail while listening to them say Spider-Man should be put in it.

It's like the universe that Stan and Kirby wrote just flipped one day or something.

[Alan2099]

Yeah... it does sometimes feel like Bizarro world or something when you're forced to actually listen to the same people defend Norman being out of jail while listening to them say Spider-Man should be put in it.

It's like the universe that Stan and Kirby wrote just flipped one day or something.

I try to read all of those posts in Bizarro speak. They're the only way they make sense to me and it's a lot more fun.

[TotalWorldDomination]

It may have been my imagination but I thought I saw Staff Sargents Chevrons on him in one image. Senior enough to be a DI but too junior to set training policy. A Di is not just an NCO grabbed out of a unit a put to work they are trained and skill professionals. Evidently Gyrich or somebody decide to through Gauntlet in a the deep end without a life preserver.

No Qualified supervision no training staff. And obviously nobody responsible for Safety. The precuations taken were inadequate for people training with marker bullets much less weapons like the Tactigon.

What they did was give a kid with a live weapon the worst possible scare without preparation. I wonder if there next training exercise will invole giving the kids LSD on the firing range.

The only real fault I have with Guantlet though is the cover-up. He would have to report it though his military chain of command anyway reguardless of what Gyrich said. If he doesn't he is a criminal.

Well, in the first issue it said that Gyrich is now the Secretary of the Superhuman Armed Forces, placing him near the top of the Chain of Command, correct? I mean if I'm remembering correctly you go President, SecDef, Sec of the Army, CoJCoS, Army CoS... ect ect and so on. If Gyrich's position is comperable to the Sec Def of Sec of the Army he is one of the highest people on Gauntlet's Chain of Command.

[TotalWorldDomination]

I try to read all of those posts in Bizarro speak. They're the only way they make sense to me and it's a lot more fun.

Funny, I think we do the same to the posts feeling the opposite. ;)

[XPac]

Funny, I think we do the same to the posts feeling the opposite. ;)

I'm seriously only half joking when I call this bizarro world though. The REAL 616 MU has the Green Goblin working as law enforcement while Spider-Man is a hunted criminal. Bizarro is the only way to describe it.

[Tobias Drake]

And isnt Bullseye paralysed because Songbird, bright girl that she is (or not) RELEASED him, but American Eagle kicked his ass? So if it wasnt for an unregistered hero, a nut job would be loose, courtesy of the Government?

Minor nitpick, but she didn't actually release him. She told him he was released so that he would do something stupid, and they would frag the hell out of him. While she did deliberately set Bullseye off, she did it with the intention of having him permanently removed from the field.

[XPac]

Minor nitpick, but she didn't actually release him. She told him he was released so that he would do something stupid, and they would frag the hell out of him. While she did deliberately set Bullseye off, she did it with the intention of having him permanently removed from the field.

Course, that basically means Songbird is an accompliss in whatever deaths Bullseye caused since that apparently is part of her plan. I guess she can just chalk that off as acceptable loss.

Sad thing is, Songbird is the closest thing this team has to a hero, but acts like this basically show even she is miles off the mark.

[Tobias Drake]

Course, that basically means Songbird is an accompliss in whatever deaths Bullseye caused since that apparently is part of her plan. I guess she can just chalk that off as acceptable loss.

Sad thing is, Songbird is the closest thing this team has to a hero, but acts like this basically show even she is miles off the mark.

True, though I don't think she realized he would kill the two soldiers, judging by her reaction. She probably thought he'd just take off running and underestimated how much of a violent psychopath he is.

So I wouldn't really call that an "acceptable loss" as much as "she tried to do something good, she just screwed up along the way".

[bulbasteve]

Its a sad twisted Marvel world when comic fans are arguing FOR Norman Osbourne being in charge of a bunch of psycho's, whilst arguing the likes of Spiderman should be in jail.

At least a psychotic has an excuse to be breaking the law :p

And isnt Bullseye paralysed because Songbird, bright girl that she is (or not) RELEASED him, but American Eagle kicked his ass? So if it wasnt for an unregistered hero, a nut job would be loose, courtesy of the Government?

It was both that made it so bad for him, he broke his neck and he was nanoshocked at the same time. But don't forget that they have described how nanoshock works, It gets progressivly worse, so as I recall you only got like 3 strikes with it until you are totally paralyzed/dead or whatever.

And please stop this "Tony isnt in charge of the CSA!" line. Tony is in a position of authority on a par with, if not higher, than the UN Secretary General. He managed to convince the President to sign up to the SHRA rather than Project Wideawake. To suggest that he couldnt succesfully lobby for the THunderbolts to be replaced with a civilian superhero team ala The Order, is horsecrap.

The people of Colorado voted for it, you don't want him to go against democracy now, do you? :p

Tony can't seem to win with you guys, either he does too much or he doesn't do enough. Pick a side :D

[XPac]

True, though I don't think she realized he would kill the two soldiers, judging by her reaction. She probably thought he'd just take off running and underestimated how much of a violent psychopath he is.

So I wouldn't really call that an "acceptable loss" as much as "she tried to do something good, she just screwed up along the way".

So in Songbird's mind, how was this actually suppossed to go? Bullseye would go free and decide never to kill ever again?

What a warm and serene place the vast space between Melissa's ears must be.

[Brian M.]

So we're looking at pretty much a 2:1 ratio of folks who consider Iron Man a hero than those who consider him a villian.

If the online community is a microcasim of the entire comic collecting community, looks like most folks think he is a hero, flawed as he is, still a hero out there trying to protect you.

[Tobias Drake]

So in Songbird's mind, how was this actually suppossed to go? Bullseye would go free and decide never to kill ever again?

What a warm and serene place the vast space between Melissa's ears must be.

In her mind, the second someone realized that Bullseye was loose, they'd give the firing order, his nanobots would trigger and frag him (which, you'll note, is exactly what happened in the middle of his fight with American Eagle), and he would be recaptured. Hopefully, the fragging would remove him from commission indefinitely (which, combined with American Eagle, also happened).

With the exception of the two dead soldiers, and the surprise and unintentional assistance of American Eagle, everything happened the way she wanted it to: Bullseye is gone.

[mattbib]

Please, guys, take the T-Bolts discussion to the MU forum. This is getting hard enough to contain as it is.

[Mark_S]

So we're looking at pretty much a 2:1 ratio of folks who consider Iron Man a hero than those who consider him a villian.

If the online community is a microcasim of the entire comic collecting community, looks like most folks think he is a hero, flawed as he is, still a hero out there trying to protect you.

That does kinda surprise me. Either the poll is fixed (unlikely, but this is a political season and I think pretty much all of them are either fixed or the results are gotten by throwing darts at a board and calling out numbers) or the very vocal hate Tony crowd is actually a minority. If the later is true then marvel has a good chance of continuing Tony's current characterization. So long as the sales continue all the shouting in the world will make no difference.

Not sure how I feel about this, being in the hate Tony camp.

Mark_S

[Mark_S]

So I wouldn't really call that an "acceptable loss" as much as "she tried to do something good, she just screwed up along the way".

They should put that on a T-Shirt since a lot of the pro-sra leaders seem to live by it. I wonder how the families of the two soldiers feel about her mistake? It'd be nice if Marvel did a follow up on that, just to give some more background on the mu right now.

Mark_S

[mikekerr3]

Well, in the first issue it said that Gyrich is now the Secretary of the Superhuman Armed Forces, placing him near the top of the Chain of Command, correct? I mean if I'm remembering correctly you go President, SecDef, Sec of the Army, CoJCoS, Army CoS... ect ect and so on. If Gyrich's position is comperable to the Sec Def of Sec of the Army he is one of the highest people on Gauntlet's Chain of Command.

Unless he is a civilian now he also reports to somebody wearing an Army uniform. The Initiative troops are obviously not under military law, the way they have been treated makes that obivous. They could not be classified as US military.

Guantlet being seconded to Gyrich would not override this, he is still subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice. That requires action to be taken on his part to military authorities.

[Zacharius]

The people of Colorado voted for it, you don't want him to go against democracy now, do you?

And why not ?:D

[Eclips0]

I just re-read over Civil War, and Golaith only hit the ledge of the building with the truck to scare them off because they shot at them first. No one got hurt because of him and Clone had no reason to kill him for that, also Tony'attitude through much of the comic is arrogant and self-absorbed. Much like Dr Doom, he has the attitude that if everyone just did only what he wanted them to do they would be better off for it.

Yes Super-Hero's should be trained, yes if they commit a crime they should be brought in. This does not require forced registration. If they wanted they could've made the registration optional, and then the ones who are registered by choice could police the ones that aren't and then their would still be unregistered ones to keep the goverment from going to far.

CW was Tony's fault and he handled it like Dr Doom would've not how a Hero does. in my book that makes him a villain.

[Eclips0]

The people of Colorado voted for it, you don't want him to go against democracy now, do you?

If they voted for something immoral, unjust and unconstitutional then yes. Democracy run amok is tyranny over the minority.

[XPac]

Stark would be in a pretty tough position in regards to trying to talk anyone into not using the TBolts since he was the one that used them in the first place.

Yes, he can go before the people of Colorado and explain how dangerous and stupid it would be to use psychopathic murderers as their defenders. And afterwards, he can give the same speech to the idiot he see's in the minor for doing just that in the first place.

[Mark_S]

Stark would be in a pretty tough position in regards to trying to talk anyone into not using the TBolts since he was the one that used them in the first place.

Yes, he can go before the people of Colorado and explain how dangerous and stupid it would be to use psychopathic murderers as their defenders. And afterwards, he can give the same speech to the idiot he see's in the minor for doing just that in the first place.

I figure that ALL of the pro-sra heroes got a massive pr boost, sort of like the old publicity machines that the movie studios used to use. Once you signed and got approval you proabably were given a make over, all sins erased, all praise sung by Stark controled of friendly columnist or tv talk show host.

Mark_S

[XPac]

I figure that ALL of the pro-sra heroes got a massive pr boost, sort of like the old publicity machines that the movie studios used to use. Once you signed and got approval you proabably were given a make over, all sins erased, all praise sung by Stark controled of friendly columnist or tv talk show host.

Mark_S

If Stark and the government are responsible for the TBolts good PR, then I guess we can credit them for doing a good job. They certainly suckered the people of Colorado (and the rest of the world quite frankly) into thinking they were heroes.

Heck, Nova's own dad actually took their side against his own son. Funny how easy it is to sell the TBolts as heroes, while the actual heroes in the MU had to fight so hard to tooth and nail to get the publics trust.

[Eclips0]

If Stark and the government are responsible for the TBolts good PR, then I guess we can credit them for doing a good job. They certainly suckered the people of Colorado (and the rest of the world quite frankly) into thinking they were heroes.

Heck, Nova's own dad actually took their side against his own son. Funny how easy it is to sell the TBolts as heroes, while the actual heroes in the MU had to fight so hard to tooth and nail to get the publics trust.

You bring up a good point, in the first issue of CW a lady tells Stark that they should leave things to the police. My response would be, "Okay lady, next time Kang or Annihilus or Magneto or Ultron or Doctor Doom want to take over and kill all you people, then go ask for the police."

I really think this has made the non-superpowered population look petty and immature. These heros have risked their lives and lost their lives saving these ingrates and one mistake makes them forget all that?

[XPac]

You bring up a good point, in the first issue of CW a lady tells Stark that they should leave things to the police. My response would be, "Okay lady, next time Kang or Annihilus or Magneto or Ultron or Doctor Doom want to take over and kill all you people, then go ask for the police."

I really think this has made the non-superpowered population look petty and immature. These heros have risked their lives and lost their lives saving these ingrates and one mistake makes them forget all that?

It'd be funny if that moron got her wish and the heroes decided to back off and leave things to the police. Of course, the heroes will never do that... they unlike the public are smart enough to realize that mankind itself will end sooner or later if the heroes don't step up. But part of me wishes it would happen.

[StoneGold]

It'd be funny if that moron got her wish and the heroes decided to back off and leave things to the police. Of course, the heroes will never do that... they unlike the public are smart enough to realize that mankind itself will end sooner or later if the heroes don't step up. But part of me wishes it would happen.



Although here is a question - why are there no metahuman police officers? On the job, anyways?

[XPac]

Although here is a question - why are there no metahuman police officers? On the job, anyways?

I'm assuming any metahuman that wants to go into that line of work was likely snagged for SHIELD.

[Alan2099]

What ever happened to Code Blue anyway?

[StoneGold]

I'm assuming any metahuman that wants to go into that line of work was likely snagged for SHIELD.

Yes, now, but what about then? There is something resembling a superhuman response force currently, but previously, you had to hope the Avengers were in town.

[StoneGold]

What ever happened to Code Blue anyway?

They got brought up recently, I believe in the MCP story with Ghost Rider's ex. So they're around, but deep, deep background. Kirby only knows if Lieutenant Stone, Fireworks Fielstein, Mad Dog Rassitano, Mother Majowski, and Rigger Ruiz are still on the squad. I think the last time they actually showed up on panel was in New Thunderbolts.

[XPac]

Yes, now, but what about then? There is something resembling a superhuman response force currently, but previously, you had to hope the Avengers were in town.

Even prior to this, I'm assuming it happened to some degree.

Daisy for example. We know SHIELD has a few telepaths and mystics.

[Will.S]

Although here is a question - why are there no metahuman police officers? On the job, anyways?
It seems to be slowly going there.

There's Crimson from Dan Slott's book, Daisy when she was with them, the telepath from the Collective arc. I think the Giffen Howling Commandos would qualify as well but yeah I'd like to see more of this. Greg Rucka does it really well with Checkmate with all the superhumans on the team and yet with checks and balances in effect. Plus even if the super powered aren't that powerful, the way they're used are in really effective ways.

[Tobias Drake]

Although here is a question - why are there no metahuman police officers? On the job, anyways?

Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free? Previously, vigilantism was simply the way of things. Why take the hassles of oversight, superiors, and having to work within the boundaries of the law, when you can just slap on a mask, beat up some criminals, and then take off into the sky, no strings attached?

[mikekerr3]

Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free? Previously, vigilantism was simply the way of things. Why take the hassles of oversight, superiors, and having to work within the boundaries of the law, when you can just slap on a mask, beat up some criminals, and then take off into the sky, no strings attached?

The old way is better, you don't have to work with people like Maria Hill and Gyrich. The Green Goblin and Bullseye are not on your side. Your own morality controls your actions.

[Eclips0]

Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free? Previously, vigilantism was simply the way of things. Why take the hassles of oversight, superiors, and having to work within the boundaries of the law, when you can just slap on a mask, beat up some criminals, and then take off into the sky, no strings attached?

Good thing vigilantism is not what we are talking about here. And that is not what they are doing.

My solution is a good one:

Yes Super-Hero's should be trained, yes if they commit a crime they should be brought in. This does not require forced registration. If they wanted they could've made the registration optional, and then the ones who are registered by choice could police the ones that aren't and then their would still be unregistered ones to keep the government from going to far.

And if the public isn't happy with that, they can fight Kang, Mags, Doom or Ultron themselves next time.

[AllisterH]

May I ask "How a unregistered hero can be brought to trial"?

If he's unregistered, why would the registered heroes automatically know his real name?

What's preventing him from simply "dropping out" or "creating a new identity?"
Spiderman once created 4 different identities so I don't see why others can't.

[Eclips0]

They can have mystics or TP's that can help track the person down. If the Government has their identities they can use them to blackmail the heros whenever they wish.

[XPac]

May I ask "How a unregistered hero can be brought to trial"?

If he's unregistered, why would the registered heroes automatically know his real name?

What's preventing him from simply "dropping out" or "creating a new identity?"
Spiderman once created 4 different identities so I don't see why others can't.

Villains get brought in all the time, and many of them at least initially have secret identites.

I would imagine dealing with a superhero turned criminal isn't much different than dealing with supervillains. Really, it's not different from trying to track down a lot criminals. You don't always have the luxury of knowing the identity of a criminal even in the real world.

[AllisterH]

They can have mystics or TP's that can help track the person down. If the Government has their identities they can use them to blackmail the heros whenever they wish.

Who is "they?" If the heroes say "I'm opposing the government" are the heroes going to form an Internal Affairs? The heroes themselves tend to be reactive rather than proactive IMHO (Take Scarlet Witch for example. The police would be crucified if an unstable person was put back on the front lines ESPECIALLY given that she has a history of mental breakdowns)

Given that SHIELD already knew their identities, I always found that aspect of the SHRA weird.

re: Er, WHICH villain actually has a secret identity? Only Taskmaster I know has one as pretty much all the rest don't wear masks. Sure, Electro has a mask when he started but let's say the government wants to bring a hero in for questioning. How does it proceed given that the heroes themselves won't know the hero in question.

[XPac]

Who is "they?" If the heroes say "I'm opposing the government" are the heroes going to form an Internal Affairs? The heroes themselves tend to be reactive rather than proactive IMHO (Take Scarlet Witch for example. The police would be crucified if an unstable person was put back on the front lines ESPECIALLY given that she has a history of mental breakdowns)

Given that SHIELD already knew their identities, I always found that aspect of the SHRA weird.

re: Er, WHICH villain actually has a secret identity? Only Taskmaster I know has one as pretty much all the rest don't wear masks. Sure, Electro has a mask when he started but let's say the government wants to bring a hero in for questioning. How does it proceed given that the heroes themselves won't know the hero in question.

Plenty of villains have worn maskes. Green Goblin, Hob Goblin, Electro, Black Knight 2, Crimson Cowl, Moonstone, Beetle, Flag Smasher, Baroc, Ghost, Spymaster, Tastmaster,Bullseye, Crossbones, Titania, Ell, Rose, Plantman, Taranchula, Tiger Shark, Blacklash, Scorpion, Killer Strike, Pyro, Avalanche, etc. Their identies are eventually known because they're caught and imprisoned but before that it's a secret.

And even in the real world authorities do have to hunt down people without knowing their identities. Yet criminals in the real and comic book world are still caught.

As far as law enforcement getting crucified for having an unstable person.... take a good look at the freaking TBolts and ask yourself whether thegovernment is any better at dealing with this issue than the heroes.

[Will.S]

The old way is better, you don't have to work with people like Maria Hill and Gyrich. The Green Goblin and Bullseye are not on your side. Your own morality controls your actions.
The thing with characters like Gyrich or a Maria Hill is that they will always have a part to play with superheroes in general. They've been involved with the Avengers and SHIELD respectively off and on for quite a while, and I think they'd still have a role to play even if there wasn't a registration act.

Oh and by the way with the thread at 600+ posts, I'm pretty sure you guys all love to talk about Iron Man even if we're all repeating the same thing.

[XPac]

The thing with characters like Gyrich or a Maria Hill is that they will always have a part to play with superheroes in general. They've been involved with the Avengers and SHIELD respectively off and on for quite a while, and I think they'd still have a role to play even if there wasn't a registration act.



Yeah, but now people like Hill and Gyrich are put in a situation where they can call the shots. When you consider how they acted in the CW What If, that's actually pretty scary.

The thing about CW is basicaly the badguys won... and I'm not talking about Tony but rather the government. They were the real problem, and they're placed in a better position. The heroes were the ones thrown under the bus here. Even Tony, for all his gains, can be removed as we saw in the Iron Man book. People like Gyrich were the real winners there. And I don't see a whole lot of good coming out of that.

[Will.S]

Yeah, but now people like Hill and Gyrich are put in a situation where they can call the shots. When you consider how they acted in the CW What If, that's actually pretty scary.

The thing about CW is basicaly the badguys won... and I'm not talking about Tony but rather the government. They were the real problem, and they're placed in a better position. The heroes were the ones thrown under the bus here. Even Tony, for all his gains, can be removed as we saw in the Iron Man book. People like Gyrich were the real winners there. And I don't see a whole lot of good coming out of that.
I would agree and the fact that they're in those positions will make for more stories that center around government control vs independent operating such as what we see in Iron Man and in The Initiative.

So far though Hill still operates under Stark and Gyrich has to deal with War Machine and Pym who have positions that don't give Gyrich all the power.

[XPac]

I would agree and the fact that they're in those positions will make for more stories that center around government control vs independent operating such as what we see in Iron Man and in The Initiative.

So far though Hill still operates under Stark and Gyrich has to deal with War Machine and Pym who have positions that don't give Gyrich all the power.

I'll agree with Hill.

But in regards to Gyrich, War Machine appears to be in the dark about a lot of things, while Pym seems to be on board. I don't see a lot of checks and balances there.

[Will.S]

I'll agree with Hill.

But in regards to Gyrich, War Machine appears to be in the dark about a lot of things, while Pym seems to be on board. I don't see a lot of checks and balances there.
That might be due to Pym or War Machine being skrulls.

The skrull reveal in the Annual has me leaning towards Pym since he's in a position of power that can supply skrulls to every state, especially with MVP thing in full effect. I wouldn't rule out War Machine either, the guy (as Dan Slott put it) has never shown his face outside of the suit and we still haven't gotten a reason as to why or how War Machine got the suit back and why it looks similar to Tony's.

[XPac]

That might be due to Pym or War Machine being skrulls.

The skrull reveal in the Annual has me leaning towards Pym since he's in a position of power that can supply skrulls to every state, especially with MVP thing in full effect. I wouldn't rule out War Machine either, the guy (as Dan Slott put it) has never shown his face outside of the suit and we still haven't gotten a reason as to why or how War Machine got the suit back and why it looks similar to Tony's.

I think we got a bit too much internal monologue from Pym for him to be a Skrull. But we'll see. I think he's a better red herring.

Getting back to Hill though, in Silent War she was ordering a suicide bombing on Attilian civilians. Obviously there were those higher up that were making the call... but I do wonder if that's an indicator of who the Powers that Be really view as running SHIELD. Stark didn't seem to be involved (and HOPEFULLY wasn't).

I wonder if Stark isn't just a convinient puppet head to keep the heroes off their backs while also being a potential scapegoat if needed. Obviously I'm iffering a lot from Silent War, a book which has pretty vague continuity. But it does make you kind of wonder.

[Will.S]

Getting back to Hill though, in Silent War she was ordering a suicide bombing on Attilian civilians. Obviously there were those higher up that were making the call... but I do wonder if that's an indicator of who the Powers that Be really view as running SHIELD. Stark didn't seem to be involved (and HOPEFULLY wasn't).
I don't think he knew about it as it was happening since he was engaging the Inhumans with the Avengers at the time but that was a pretty shady thing with whoever gave Hill the order. Iron Man probably might have known about it after the fact though.

I wonder if Stark isn't just a convinient puppet head to keep the heroes off their backs while also being a potential scapegoat if needed. Obviously I'm iffering a lot from Silent War, a book which has pretty vague continuity. But it does make you kind of wonder.
I've seen him clash quite a bit with the CSA. He also seemed to have taken measures with the registration bill to give some him leeway with the government, most of the time he seems to be operating of his own accord.

Perhaps to maintain the notion of enforcing Registration and whatnot but even that died down with him being head of SHIELD and the Avengers.

[XPac]

I don't think he knew about it as it was happening since he was engaging the Inhumans with the Avengers at the time. He probably might have known about it after though.


I've seen him clash quite a bit with the CSA. He also seemed to have taken measures with the registration bill to give some him leeway with the government.

The MA Inhumans fight took place before the operation to blow up Attilan though. Stark I think commented on how the higher ups opted not to use the heroes against them because of their frankly sucky performance.

Stark is clashing with the CSA... but I think he's also being largely ignored by them. He's being shut out of the activities going on in Camp Hammond. And if he's made any efforts to take take Osborne and the TBolts from power, they clearly haven't been sucessful. Which is understandalbe since any arguements he makes against them would be weak because he was the one that first justified their use in the first place.

[Will.S]

The MA Inhumans fight took place before the operation to blow up Attilan though. Stark I think commented on how the higher ups opted not to use the heroes against them because of their frankly sucky performance.
Having re-read it yeah the attack on Attilan happens after the Mighty Avengers lost. The President ordered it through military means that don't go through Iron Man and Maria Hill so that was beyond his control anyway.

Stark is clashing with the CSA... but I think he's also being largely ignored by them. He's being shut out of the activities going on in Camp Hammond. And if he's made any efforts to take take Osborne and the TBolts from power, they clearly haven't been sucessful. Which is understandalbe since any arguements he makes against them would be weak because he was the one that first justified their use in the first place.
Tony hasn't tried to take the CSA and the T-Bolts down or anything but if they do something that doesn't agree with him he'll definitely make it known.

[mikekerr3]

Having re-read it yeah the attack on Attilan happens after the Mighty Avengers lost. The President ordered it through military means that don't go through Iron Man and Maria Hill so that was beyond his control anyway.
.

Maria Hill and Shield were actively involved, since when can the president give Shield orders, Are they UN or US? If UN they don't follow the orders of a members state. They follow the orders of the Security council.

[Arilou]

Maria Hill and Shield were actively involved, since when can the president give Shield orders, Are they UN or US? If UN they don't follow the orders of a members state. They follow the orders of the Security council.

SHIELD is a UN agency, but since we don't know the details of the Charter we don't really know how accountable they are.

[Will.S]

Maria Hill and Shield were actively involved, since when can the president give Shield orders, Are they UN or US? If UN they don't follow the orders of a members state. They follow the orders of the Security council.
It hasn't been clearly defined as of late but SHIELD seems to operate much closer with the US. I don't know if it's because of the skrulls or what but I haven't seen them answer to the UN in a while.

Secret War and the Collective arc had Maria Hill talk directly to the President and having gotten orders/suggestive information regarding superheroes and their use.

[IamtheRock3]

Tony STICKS it to Cap one last time

[bulbasteve]

It hasn't been clearly defined as of late but SHIELD seems to operate much closer with the US. I don't know if it's because of the skrulls or what but I haven't seen them answer to the UN in a while.

Secret War and the Collective arc had Maria Hill talk directly to the President and having gotten orders/suggestive information regarding superheroes and their use.

Well gotten "orders" she never followed like nuking the Avengers. I don't think the President has any actual power over them based on that scene.

Plus in IM 17 in talking about secretly going in China they talk about how they don't think the Secretary-General would ever sanction it. Which shows that in the MU crazy conspiracy theorists are right about the UN XD

[XPac]

Having re-read it yeah the attack on Attilan happens after the Mighty Avengers lost. The President ordered it through military means that don't go through Iron Man and Maria Hill so that was beyond his control anyway.



It definately went through Hill and SHIELD. Hill and SHIELD were obviously executing everything even though the orders came from those above Hill.

The question is really whether it went through Stark or not. Stark convinently is nowhere to be seen while SHIELD is executing this plan to deliver suicide bombers on civilian targets.

Is Stark ignorant of it? Are they going over his head? Or is he aware of all of this and simply choosing not to get involved? I'm not sure.

[Eclips0]

Even so, there plenty of crimes he was aware of and initiated.

[Will.S]

The question is really whether it went through Stark or not. Stark convinently is nowhere to be seen while SHIELD is executing this plan to deliver suicide bombers on civilian targets.

Is Stark ignorant of it? Are they going over his head? Or is he aware of all of this and simply choosing not to get involved? I'm not sure.It's most likely the last one added to the fact that Tony has about a billion other concerns.

[XPac]

It's most likely the last one added to the fact that Tony has about a billion other concerns.

I don't deny that Stark has been pretty busy lately. That said, busy or not I would assume that a suicide bombing on the Inhumans city would sort of rate fairly high on his priorities.

[Tobias Drake]

I don't deny that Stark has been pretty busy lately. That said, busy or not I would assume that a suicide bombing on the Inhumans city would sort of rate fairly high on his priorities.

Considering his schedule of late, I wouldn't. A H.Y.D.R.A. leader ruling a sovereign nation, threat of war with Atlantis over 900 deaths, an Initiative team violently self-destructing which led back into the Extremis mess, a Thunderbolt gone rogue (hell, dealing with the Thunderbolts in general), a bunch of ex-mutant kids getting themselves killed, Camp Hammond out of control, Asgard plopping down in the middle of Oklahoma, Frank Castle, Naked Ultron, Bucky and the Red Skull, Venom infestation, Doctor Doom, World War Hulk...honestly, if Stark took one of the many, many crippling burdens on his shoulders, handed it off to Maria Hill, and said "Can you handle this? I'm kinda busy at the moment," the only thing I can blame him for is that he didn't choose Dugan.

[XPac]

Considering his schedule of late, I wouldn't. A H.Y.D.R.A. leader ruling a sovereign nation, threat of war with Atlantis over 900 deaths, an Initiative team violently self-destructing which led back into the Extremis mess, a Thunderbolt gone rogue (hell, dealing with the Thunderbolts in general), a bunch of ex-mutant kids getting themselves killed, Camp Hammond out of control, Asgard plopping down in the middle of Oklahoma, Frank Castle, Naked Ultron, Bucky and the Red Skull, Venom infestation, Doctor Doom, World War Hulk...honestly, if Stark took one of the many, many crippling burdens on his shoulders, handed it off to Maria Hill, and said "Can you handle this? I'm kinda busy at the moment," the only thing I can blame him for is that he didn't choose Dugan.

I disagree. Aside from the fact that the Inhumans have been their allies for a long time, Black Bolt one of the most powerful beings in the galaxy, AND he's got an Infinity Gem.

To potentially create a situation of escalation with him is a VERY dangerous option. Plus, I'd assume that Stark would think the whole thing is flat out wrong and try to stop it on those grounds. Perhaps I'm wrong and Stark condones using suicide bombers on Civilian targets, I don't know... I'm just speculating.

If Stark knew about this, shrugged it off and handed it off to Hill because he was too busy, then that tellls us a lot about Stark.

[Tobias Drake]

I disagree. Aside from the fact that the Inhumans have been their allies for a long time, Black Bolt one of the most powerful beings in the galaxy, AND he's got an Infinity Gem.

One of the most powerful beings in the galaxy is a concern, though I wouldn't worry too much about the Infinity Gem; Black Bolt knows just as well as Stark does that Stark and Reed have two Infinity Gems, and if things escalate, two other Infinity Gems (Namor would certainly sit it out no matter what happened) could enter the battle. If he escalated it to an Infinity Gem war, the conflict would very likely tear apart both the Inhumans and a large chunk of the human population, and he could not win. Involving the Infinity Gems would be a spectacularly bad move on his part.

To potentially create a situation of escalation with him is a VERY dangerous option. Plus, I'd assume that Stark would think the whole thing is flat out wrong and try to stop it on those grounds. Perhaps I'm wrong and Stark condones using suicide bombers on Civilian targets, I don't know... I'm just speculating.

If Stark knew about this, shrugged it off and handed it off to Hill because he was too busy, then that tellls us a lot about Stark.

Or perhaps he didn't know about the suicide bombing when he delegated to Maria Hill.

[XPac]

One of the most powerful beings in the galaxy is a concern, though I wouldn't worry too much about the Infinity Gem; Black Bolt knows just as well as Stark does that Stark and Reed have two Infinity Gems, and if things escalate, two other Infinity Gems (Namor would certainly sit it out no matter what happened) could enter the battle. If he escalated it to an Infinity Gem war, the conflict would very likely tear apart both the Inhumans and a large chunk of the human population, and he could not win. Involving the Infinity Gems would be a spectacularly bad move on his part.



Or perhaps he didn't know about the suicide bombing when he delegated to Maria Hill.

Yes... things could escalate. Which is why escalating it at the end of Silent was so STUPID. Bombing a civilian target achieves no military objective... it's simply a pure act of evil. There's no need to escalate if nothing is achieved by doing so. Invading Attilan to maybe regain the crystals or capture the escaped prisoners is one thing... blowing up their civilians is pointless. And this was SHIELDs' doing... the organization Stark is in charge of.

Seriously, what should the Inhumans do now that SHIELD has made it clear they are willing to slaughter even their women and children? This was an important enough issue NOT to delegate if in fact that's what Stark did as you suspect. If he's ignoring a war so he can secretly fund a bunch of X kids then he need to seriously reconsider his priorities.

[Tobias Drake]

Yes... things could escalate. Which is why escalating it at the end of Silent was so STUPID. Bombing a civilian target achieves no military objective... it's simply a pure act of evil. There's no need to escalate if nothing is achieved by doing so. Invading Attilan to maybe regain the crystals or capture the escaped prisoners is one thing... blowing up their civilians is pointless. And this was SHIELDs' doing... the organization Stark is in charge of.

Seriously, what should the Inhumans do now that SHIELD has made it clear they are willing to slaughter even their women and children? This was an important enough issue NOT to delegate if in fact that's what Stark did as you suspect. If he's ignoring a war so he can secretly fun a bunch of X kids then he need to seriously reconsider his priorities.

I'm not defending the suicide bombing. I haven't even read it; I couldn't begin to defend anything about Silent War. But if Maria Hill was the one doing this and not Tony Stark, as has been brought up, then at worst, it's a case of delegating to the wrong person.

Also, a couple months ago Black Panther was supposedly funding the New Warriors. I wouldn't trust anything Night Thrasher wants you to believe about where his money is coming from, especially when it comes from an anonymous source (probably Night Thrasher himself) and not through research.

[XPac]

I'm not defending the suicide bombing. I haven't even read it; I couldn't begin to defend anything about Silent War. But if Maria Hill was the one doing this and not Tony Stark, as has been brought up, then at worst, it's a case of delegating to the wrong person.

Also, a couple months ago Black Panther was supposedly funding the New Warriors. I wouldn't trust anything Night Thrasher wants you to believe about where his money is coming from, especially when it comes from an anonymous source (probably Night Thrasher himself) and not through research.

Well, the WORST case would be if Stark knew about this and allowed it to happen. That makes him as much of a monster as the terrorists his organization fights. This puts Frontline to shame.

This was SHIELD, so to one degree or another Stark gets accountability since he's director of SHIELD... it's just a matter of how much. I'd like to give Mr. Hero of the Year the benefit of the doubt and assume he knew nothing about it, but that would make no sense regardless of how busy he is. So I don't know.

By the way, you should try to check out the Silent War trade. It's really good.

[Arilou]

I'm not clear on the timeline but was Stark actually director at this point? As far as I understand things Silent War overlaps with Civil War to some extent.

[XPac]

I'm not clear on the timeline but was Stark actually director at this point? As far as I understand things Silent War overlaps with Civil War to some extent.

It's clear that the end of Silent War occured after CW. We saw the Mighty Avengers try to stop the Inhumans in the second to the last issue, so Stark was already director.

Given what happened, I'm half way suprised Stark didn't expect the REAL Black Bolt to attack them at the last issue of Illuminati.

[Arilou]

It's clear that the end of Silent War occured after CW. We saw the Mighty Avengers try to stop the Inhumans in the second to the last issue, so Stark was already director.

Given what happened, I'm half way suprised Stark didn't expect the REAL Black Bolt to attack them at the last issue of Illuminati.

Wasn't there a significant gap between the Silent War issues though?

[mikekerr3]

Wasn't there a significant gap between the Silent War issues though?

The suicide Bombing was after the MA fought the Inhumans. If Stark didn't know before, not knowing later would just be incompetence.

[bulbasteve]

Xpac, Mike? What is with this weird speculation? You both read issues I'm pretty sure, at least the others said they didn't read it (which proves you both have great taste in comics...but a poor memory!) :p

In Silent War 4 it is made clear that Hill originally thought they were just getting "Disaplined, Army-Trained, Super Heroes." but the Doctor then revealed that the Human body could not handle it and the soldiers could only be used as "no more than a kamikazi squad." At the scene at O*N*E we see Hill sadly telling the Sec Def that all the Marines still voulenteered even knowing they were doomed to die, she looks pretty darn sad about it with her head hanging and all.

Now in Silent War 5, we have Tony Stark speaking to Maria Hill:

"I've heard from the Secretary of Defense that the President has ordered a retalitory attack. A direct assult on Atillian."

Hill asks if Tony if the Avengers are ready for that.

"Not the Avengers. It seems that after our performance at the Pentagon, the Presidents confidence has been shaken. He prefers a more displined group. The late Professor Cartwright's last work with the terrigan mists is about to be tested. Your pet project. We're sending in the Marines".

In Silent War 6 we see Hill asking the President if he is going to defer the order to blow the warhead or not in a very well done and dramatic scene. She is quite clearly distressed at having to do it. Hill (and Tony of course!) is a far more nuanced characters than you guys give her credit for :)

[mikekerr3]

Xpacy, Mikey! You know better than this (at least the others didn't read the issues). :p

Silent War 5, Tony Stark speaking to Maria Hill:

"I've heard from the Secretary of Defense that the President has ordered a retalitory attack. A direct assult on Atillian."

Hill asks if Tony if the Avengers are ready for that.

"Not the Avengers. It seems that after our performance at the Pentagon, the Presidents confidence has been shaken. He prefers a more displined group. The late Professor Cartwright's last work with the terrigan mists is about to be tested. Your pet project. We're sending in the marines".

In the next issue we see Hill asking the President if he is going to defer the order to blow the warhead or not in a very well done and dramatic scene. She is quite clearly distressed at having to do it. Hill is a far more nuanced characters than you guys give her credit for :)

She could have refused she doesn't work for the president, She could have bucked it up to Tony. Instead she participated in the premeditated murder of civilians and US Marines. I don't see much nuance in mass murder.

[bulbasteve]

She could have refused she doesn't work for the president, She could have bucked it up to Tony. Instead she participated in the premeditated murder of civilians and US Marines. I don't see much nuance in mass murder.

They probably actually do in this case, afterall the United States doesn't have...you know....crazy spaceships and stuff, plus I imagine every country on Earth much appreciate there terrorist act...cause really no country is protected from them, living on the moon and being able to teleport and all. So either way it sure seems like it was required. Certainly by the way Hill and Tony acted it sure seemed like it.

[darksaint124]

Well let's see the greatness that is Iron Man.

1. He made a whole lot of money of of his Civil War.
2. Cap's dead
3. Talked Spider-Man into unmasking(and we all know how well that turned out)
4. Cloned Thor (we also know how well that turned out)
5. Gets the crap kicked out of him on a monthly basis by someone on the side of angels.
6. He's the frontrunner for turning America into a facist, military state.
7. Turned into Ultron
8. His only good reason for hunting the Secret Avengers is because they would actually stop evil from happening.
9. The Secret Avengers are actually doing his job for him.
10. Has taken the position that the government should be able to just do what it wants to its citizens, no matter that the citizens are the reason the government exists in the first place.
So still think Stark is really the Hero of the Year. The Marvel Universe has no more heroes after Cap died.

[Mark_S]

They probably actually do in this case, afterall the United States doesn't have...you know....crazy spaceships and stuff, plus I imagine every country on Earth much appreciate there terrorist act...cause really no country is protected from them, living on the moon and being able to teleport and all. So either way it sure seems like it was required. Certainly by the way Hill and Tony acted it sure seemed like it.

But the Inhumans only moved onto the moon when they pollution from the industrialized countries made even living in the remote part of the planet Earth impossible. If they didn't strike out at the world for that, for literally being exiled from their own planet, why is everyone afraid they'd strike out now? Just because of a few nuts like Quicksilver? From where they are on the moon the Inhuman's could just lob big rocks at us (and Blackbolt could do that all by himself) and wipe out cities. Why provoke them? It's not like if you hurt them bad they won't be mad and want some payback. If Silent War happened before civil war is it possible that Tony wanted to make his point that they shouldn't get involved or even more Inhumans would be killed? After all with the Cape Killers and the SHIELD strike squads shooting at every renegade in a cape an escape off world might have appealed to some of them, and that would have given them a base to organize. Maybe Tony just wanted to show BB and the rest that there was no place he couldn't send some trouble-and death-if need be.

Mark_S

[Brian M.]

You guys should call up the NYPD and get an arrest warrant and take it to Marvel.

[mikekerr3]

You guys should call up the NYPD and get an arrest warrant and take it to Marvel.

No I thinl it makes more sense to complain when terrorism, assassination, mind-control, deceit and betrayal are portrayed as heroism. When using Suicide bombers on civilian populations is considered justified.

That these thing are what a hero does in incomprehensible to me. I am puzzled are their any limits to what someone can do for what he thinks is right? Are thier no moral lines between good and evil; for you? Or is whatever your "hero" does justified? That is a scary mindset

[bulbasteve]

But the Inhumans only moved onto the moon when they pollution from the industrialized countries made even living in the remote part of the planet Earth impossible. If they didn't strike out at the world for that, for literally being exiled from their own planet, why is everyone afraid they'd strike out now?

I suppose the 47 civilians that died in their terrorist attack at the theater (on