Iron Man: IGN'S Hero of the Year!

[OnslaughtKILLS]

Theres no need to be rude.

Like I said all of these points have already been broguht up and addressed in this thread, you should read back.

I've seen some of the arguments, and they hold no justification.

[Eclips0]

In your opinion.

Under the law citizens can make an arrest and detain the criminla till the proper authorities arrive.

And you cannot compare them to guns, they are living people with rights under the law, guns have no rights.

They are there because the threats they face could nto be handled by the police or the army. That does not mean they should have to become foot soliders of the Government.

[OnslaughtKILLS]

In your opinion.

Under the law citizens can make an arrest and detain the criminla till the proper authorities arrive.

And you cannot compare them to guns, they are living people with rights under the law, guns have no rights.

They are there because the threats they face could nto be handled by the police or the army. That does not mean they should have to become foot soliders of the Government.

Of course in the situation you described, if needed they would have to go to court. I have yet to see heroes lining up to go to court.

And while they are people as you describe them, they are weapons as well. Many have the power of a nuclear weapon. While it unrealistic for the government to address it in comics earlier (imagine if someone today said they possessed the power of a nuclear weapon?) it is realistic for the government to try and do something out of it. I can name tons of situations where due to super hero interference, innocent people died. What happened to those heroes? They either web-slinged away, flew, etc.

They are in fact, lethal, deadly, and dangerous. Like guns, like unauthorized vigilantes, they must be registered.

[Eclips0]

And yes they could go to court but then as someone else pointed out there would be issuses on that as well.

No simply because they have super-powers does not take away their rights and freedoms. And does not mean they have to become Government poperty.

[OnslaughtKILLS]

And yes they could go to court but then as someone else pointed out there would be issuses on that as well.

No simply because they have super-powers does not take away their rights and freedoms. And does not mean they have to become Government poperty.

While some laws have to be passed to fix some problems with the registration (if the heroes don't want to fight, they shouldn't be forced to) their rights aren't being taken away.

And if they weren't willing to attend court then they shouldn't have fought crime in the first place.

[Eclips0]

Yes, they are free citizens, they should not have to be registered. The constitutional issues have been cited and outlined in this thread.

And it's not that they are unwilling to attend court, under the law since their identity is secret they cannot give testimony.

[OnslaughtKILLS]

Yes, they are free citizens, they should not have to be registered. The constitutional issues have been cited and outlined in this thread.

And it's not that they are unwilling to attend court, under the law since their identity is secret they cannot give testimony.

The constitution bears to normal people with no weapons. Super heroes ARE weapons. You can yell "unconstitutional" all you want, but it gives no bearing no justification to what you are saying.

And with that mentality, it's illegal for super heroes to wear masks while doing what they do.

[XPac]

He was using Norman and the CW T-Bolts on separate occasions, he didn't specifically ask Norman to be put in charge of the T-Bolts, Songbird was supposed to be in his position. I really don't care about Norman's rights because Norman is scum so at least he was being put to good use. It's a great idea story wise but at the same time a horrible idea in the story to have him in charge of the T-Bolts, look at Norman's current breakdown with the switching of the meds, something big is gonna happen.

As far as the whole Atlantean thing goes, seeing their status now with Namor I can't say I can sympathize with them any longer.


So how does Tony killing off Atlantean terrorists any worse than Bush bombing terrorists in the middle east? Does that mean he should be brought up on charges? Keep in mind, I heavily dislike Bush but some tactics are viable with threats that endanger a greater amount of people with higher death tolls.


It was probably due to a lot of off panel happenings on top of the ones we saw so that we can see F-listers & Z-Listers get some notice.

I'll have to agree to disagree with you about the legality, ethics, and common sense of using Norman Osborne. You don't need to be a futurist to see that could and would blow up in his face. You want the Atlanteans stopped... just send SHIELD and the Avengers in and call it a day.

As far as Tony's terrorist act... there are many differences between what Bush is doing and what Tony is doing. If Bush called for a bombing on US soil, he could and should get a lot of the criticism that Tony is getting. But beyond that, there's the issue that Tony at that point was not director of SHIELD. So him deciding to play judge, jury and executioner or anyone is about as justifed as Punisher. No one can argue he was using the minimum force required to resolve this situation.

As I argued elsewhere... legal and ethical issues aside, it was just a flat out DUMB and unecessary plan. He could have and should have just sent SHIELD and the Avengers in there. If they indeed were terrorists, then that should have generated all the fear in the public he needed. But instead Stark decides to act in a legally and ethically questionable manner, basically justifying the fears the public has of the superhuman community. That's the irony of the situation... he's using lies and manipulation to try and earn their trust.

[Eclips0]

The constitution bears to normal people with no weapons. Super heroes ARE weapons. You can yell "unconstitutional" all you want, but it gives no bearing no justification to what you are saying.

And with that mentality, it's illegal for super heroes to wear masks while doing what they do.

Sorry but super heroes are still people and still US citizens and they get to keep their rights and freedoms under the constitution regardless. Sorry, but some of us like the concept of liberty.

And they wear masks because if they didn't they put themselves and their loved ones at risk. (Aunt May being a perfect example)

[XPac]

While some laws have to be passed to fix some problems with the registration (if the heroes don't want to fight, they shouldn't be forced to) their rights aren't being taken away.



Speedball was flat out told that unregistered combatants have no rights. Wrecker was told in NA that they can hold him indefinately without getting a lawyer. In TBolts, Osborne says that suspects are being held for questioning indefinately.

Due process for the metahuman community is definately taking a hit with the registration. Those are basic rights that should be guranteed regardless of whether you agreed to sign a piece of paper or not.

[OnslaughtKILLS]

If you want total rights, then what you want is complete anarchy. If these laws were not in place, eventually the entire country could go up in flame because a super hero had a bad day. While their rights have to be protected, that doesn't mean they are a threat to national security. By having them registered, it does just that. Do you think dentists, doctors, taxi drivers, police officers, shouldn't be registered? If not, you are not asking to follow the constitution but a totally different government.

And of course they wear a mask for a reason. But that means nothing. If they didn't want themselves hurt, or their family they shouldn't have pursued that life style int he first place. With registration, their identity is protected AND they are following the law.

[XPac]

If you want total rights, then what you want is complete anarchy. If these laws were not in place, eventually the entire country could go up in flame because a super hero had a bad day. While their rights have to be protected, that doesn't mean they are a threat to national security. By having them registered, it does just that. Do you think dentists, doctors, taxi drivers, police officers, shouldn't be registered? If not, you are not asking to follow the constitution but a totally different government.

And of course they wear a mask for a reason. But that means nothing. If they didn't want themselves hurt, or their family they shouldn't have pursued that life style int he first place. With registration, their identity is protected AND they are following the law.

No one is asking for total rights... just the basic rights that the constitution already provides. If a person breaks the law, fine... arrest them. But offer them due process. Allow them to get a lawyer. Denying someone due process has absolutely NOTHING to do with liscencing.

Why does someone lose their right to due process just because they refuse to sign a piece of paper? It's stupid.

An arguement can be made that the core concept of the registration is reasonable (even though their are legal issues around even that), but because so much other garbage was thrown in there it ended up becoming an abomination.

[mikekerr3]

If you want total rights, then what you want is complete anarchy. If these laws were not in place, eventually the entire country could go up in flame because a super hero had a bad day. While their rights have to be protected, that doesn't mean they are a threat to national security. By having them registered, it does just that. Do you think dentists, doctors, taxi drivers, police officers, shouldn't be registered? If not, you are not asking to follow the constitution but a totally different government.

And of course they wear a mask for a reason. But that means nothing. If they didn't want themselves hurt, or their family they shouldn't have pursued that life style int he first place. With registration, their identity is protected AND they are following the law.

Their identities would be held by a man with little personal honor, who will lie to and betray his friends Who used the corpse of his "best friend" to bait a trap. He is also about one step away from falling off the wagon. I would not call that secure.

[XPac]

Their identities would be held by a man with little personal honor, who will lie to and betray his friends Who used the corpse of his "best friend" to bait a trap. He is also about one step away from falling off the wagon. I would not call that secure.

That aside... Stark has been compromised taken control of right before Civil War (in his own book), and right afterwards (in MA by Ultron). He's got a higher rate of being mind controlled or taken over than most people in the MU short of Gruenwalds Squadron Supreme.

I won't blame him for those instances... but in the same breath I'm not sure I'd feel as safe as I would hope if I were a MU hero. Hood seemed to get Tigras info in NA... I wonder if that's a sign that the info is already leaked.

[Eclips0]

If you want total rights, then what you want is complete anarchy. If these laws were not in place, eventually the entire country could go up in flame because a super hero had a bad day. While their rights have to be protected, that doesn't mean they are a threat to national security. By having them registered, it does just that. Do you think dentists, doctors, taxi drivers, police officers, shouldn't be registered? If not, you are not asking to follow the constitution but a totally different government.

And of course they wear a mask for a reason. But that means nothing. If they didn't want themselves hurt, or their family they shouldn't have pursued that life style int he first place. With registration, their identity is protected AND they are following the law.

The heroes have always shown the ability to police their own and yes I do think that if a hero does go to far that they should be arrested and charged like any other person, this does not require registration.

[OnslaughtKILLS]

Using bait is not illegal. I think you are confused with the notion of a police officer posing as a prostitute and luring in a person, then arresting him/her.

As for upholding the law, by registering they do that. Are people allowed to buy weapons from the black market? No. I mean, what rights are taken away if they register to the government? Like stated before, dentists have to do it! If a person with powers didn't wish he/she had powers, then thats a shame but not everyone is born lucky.

If a person goes on rogue, maybe about 5 people die. If a super hero goes on a rogue, a state could perish.

But you guys seem so fed up with calling Iron Man a villain, and since there seems to be a good number of Libertarians here, let me pose a situation (by the way, I still say that the registration is constitutional).

Support the Iraq War or not, we went in there unconstitutionally. Support the Drug War or not, it's unconstitutional. Support the Patriot Act or not, it's still unconstitutional.

If a soldier signs up to go to the military because he wanted to help the Iraqi citizens and goes to fight in the war, does that make him a villain?

If a police officer arrested someone for having marijuana, does that make them a villain?

If a police officer exercised his rights to use the Patriot Act, does that make them a villain?

Now, whats my point? Tony Stark had no chance to reverse this bill. Matter in fact, HE TRIED. He failed and seeing the moral high ground of it, he took a position and fought for it. Now, who passed the bill? Congress and Senate, supported by the President. Tony Stark became the director of S.H.I.E.L.D, a world organization who has no control over laws.

[Eclips0]

As I said the heroes can be brought to justice, either by other heroes or by sentinels or something of that nature.

He is a villain, he supported an unconstituational law instead of doing what Cap did and oppose it(Which he was doing peacfully until Tony's forces attacked him..)

And for the last time, a weapon is different then a person, no matter how powerful that person is, they are still a person under the law and their rights have to be respected. Some of us still believe in rights and freedoms.

And he is also a villain in the tactics he used to implement his regime and is responsible for many many deaths. As I said very little sperates him from Doctor Doom. They both think their respective countries should function as they see fit and they do not listen to anyone elses opinion on the matter and they use any tactics, regardless of morality even lethal at times to enforce them.

You are not going to convince us that he is not a villain, we know him to be in every sense of the word.

[OnslaughtKILLS]

As I said the heroes can be brought to justice, either by other heroes or by sentinels or something of that nature.

He is a villain, he supported an unconstituational law instead of doing what Cap did and oppose it(Which he was doing peacfully until Tony's forces attacked him..)

And for the last time, a weapon is different then a person, no matter how powerful that person is, they are still a person under the law and their rights have to be respected. Some of us still believe in rights and freedoms.

And he is also a villain in the tactics he used to implement his regime and is responsible for many many deaths. As I said very little sperates him from Doctor Doom. They both think their respective countries should function as they see fit and they do not listen to anyone elses opinion on the matter and they use any tactics, regardless of morality even lethal at times to enforce them.

You are not going to convince us that he is not a villain, we know him to be in every sense of the word.

In response to your last point, read my last post. You totally negated it.

As for weapons being different than people, that is total bull. Fortunately or unfortunately for them they were born as a weapon. For the security of the nation they have to register, even if they don't plan on using their powers. I doubt you would be comfortable with a nuclear weapon in the house next to you.

[mikekerr3]

Using bait is not illegal. I think you are confused with the notion of a police officer posing as a prostitute and luring in a person, then arresting him/her.

Its not illegal but it is dishonorable.

As for upholding the law, by registering they do that. Are people allowed to buy weapons from the black market? No. I mean, what rights are taken away if they register to the government? Like stated before, dentists have to do it! If a person with powers didn't wish he/she had powers, then thats a shame but not everyone is born lucky.

If it was just registration being held by a [B} reputable agency, i could agree with you. But this puts you into servitude of Shield, Or the massively corrupt Gyrich for life at their discretion.

If a person goes on rogue, maybe about 5 people die. If a super hero goes on a rogue, a state could perish.

Time to start registering and enslaving Biochemists and Genetic Engineers then ,they could kill countries


But you guys seem so fed up with calling Iron Man a villain, and since there seems to be a good number of Libertarians here, let me pose a situation (by the way, I still say that the registration is constitutional).

Support the Iraq War or not, we went in there unconstitutionally. Support the Drug War or not, it's unconstitutional. Support the Patriot Act or not, it's still unconstitutional.
If a soldier signs up to go to the military because he wanted to help the Iraqi citizens and goes to fight in the war, does that make him a villain?

No it would not make him a villain, but if he had ambassadors shot at and kept Americans prisoner without due process that would, If he forced or allowed children to register and train for combat that would. If he commited stock fraud. Soldiers are taught in basic training that there are lines you can't be ordered to cross when they cross then they are criminals and the miltary treats them as such.

Now, whats my point? Tony Stark had no chance to reverse this bill. Matter in fact, HE TRIED. He failed and seeing the moral high ground of it, he took a position and fought for it. Now, who passed the bill? Congress and Senate, supported by the President. Tony Stark became the director of S.H.I.E.L.D, a world organization who has no control over laws.

He would not be considered such a villain if he had obeyed the Constitution and criminal laws while he was enforcing the law. His goal was credible even if I disagree with it, his methods were criminal and morally corrupt.

[Shyft]

If you want total rights, then what you want is complete anarchy. If these laws were not in place, eventually the entire country could go up in flame because a super hero had a bad day. While their rights have to be protected, that doesn't mean they are a threat to national security. By having them registered, it does just that. Do you think dentists, doctors, taxi drivers, police officers, shouldn't be registered? If not, you are not asking to follow the constitution but a totally different government.

And of course they wear a mask for a reason. But that means nothing. If they didn't want themselves hurt, or their family they shouldn't have pursued that life style int he first place. With registration, their identity is protected AND they are following the law.

sorry, whats in the SHRA that could stop a superhero having a bad day and wiping out the planet? The Sentry is still a nutcase (and i love him for it) if he decided to wipe out existance, why would the fact that he signed over his identity keep anyone safe?

[XPac]

sorry, whats in the SHRA that could stop a superhero having a bad day and wiping out the planet? The Sentry is still a nutcase (and i love him for it) if he decided to wipe out existance, why would the fact that he signed over his identity keep anyone safe?

Yeah... the thing is, the registration really changes nothing.

Thing is a fully liscensed registered hero. But in FF he still beat down Doom by punching him through buildings into the streets in the middle of NY. Nothing is different, other than the fact that he's now carrying an ID card.

For all the personal, social, and financial costs, I'm not sure the Initiative has significantly changed anything. Odds are for better or for worse, heroes will still do exactly what they were doing before.

If the heroes ever do get out of line, it will be the heroes regulating themselves while the government stands in the background acting incompetently. Heroes fix things. The government at best just gets in the way, and at worst makes things worse. We've seen it time and time again.

[Will.S]

I'll have to agree to disagree with you about the legality, ethics, and common sense of using Norman Osborne. You don't need to be a futurist to see that could and would blow up in his face. You want the Atlanteans stopped... just send SHIELD and the Avengers in and call it a day.
The use of Norman didn't blow up in his face though, whereas in the New Thunderbolts there's sabotage involved. He did exactly what he was set out to do.

And there were no Avengers around during Civil War, SHIELD drafted Wonder Man and went to investigate the whole matter and for some odd reason said he was out gunned when really he could have solo'ed all the Atlanteans.

As far as Tony's terrorist act... there are many differences between what Bush is doing and what Tony is doing. If Bush called for a bombing on US soil, he could and should get a lot of the criticism that Tony is getting. But beyond that, there's the issue that Tony at that point was not director of SHIELD. So him deciding to play judge, jury and executioner or anyone is about as justifed as Punisher. No one can argue he was using the minimum force required to resolve this situation.

As I argued elsewhere... legal and ethical issues aside, it was just a flat out DUMB and unecessary plan. He could have and should have just sent SHIELD and the Avengers in there. If they indeed were terrorists, then that should have generated all the fear in the public he needed. But instead Stark decides to act in a legally and ethically questionable manner, basically justifying the fears the public has of the superhuman community. That's the irony of the situation... he's using lies and manipulation to try and earn their trust.Reed, Hank, and Tony were protected for Clor. If Tony is registered, he can use whatever force he deems necessary to solve the problem regardless of ethics. He does what he has to do to make it happen, I'm sure this makes people irate but that's what he does.

[mindcrime]

Captain America was far from a villain, he only acted in self defense to oppose and unjust and unconstitutional law.

Tony thought his way was best no matter what anyone else thought and he did terrible things in order to establish his regime. He wanted to control his fellow heroes. I see no problem labeling him a villain.




regime? what regime? he's the director of shield, a position he could lose at any moment & he has his buisness that he runs. being the director of shield is on shaky ground as we speak. if tony wanted real power, he would have never givin up being sec. of defense. have any of you read what if civil war? tony said right there, to the watcher: "so i did the right thing then." "the only choice was to get in front of it, to control it, or let it crush us." "one of us had to be on the inside, running the show." "why couldn't steve see that?" "he was not one to be comfortable with the lesser of two evils.", the watcher says. tony replies "but it isnt evil, its a BURDEN. "he should have known that." "perhaps in another reality, he would." replies the watcher. it goes to show in the 1st story, that without tony there to lead the SHRA, more than likely all the heroes would have been killed. mistakes were made, but the outcome would have been death for the heroes if he didnt. i have said this 100 times & nobody gets it.

[Will.S]

They were on US soil and we were not legal at war with them. Under US law they were criminals. Even the president could not order executions without trial in the US.

The military is forbiden from such operations inside the US by Posse Comitatus. The rules are differnt for operations inside the US.

The biggest thing is Stark chose to kill them not arrest them. I thought Stark fans were against Vigilantes. This was someone acting as Judge, Jury and executioner. No one has that authority in the US and no one has the authority to authorise this. This was outright murder under US law.
If Stark has to kill some terrorists to protect his nation and he's protected by registration then that's what he'll do.

[XPac]

The use of Norman didn't blow up in his face though, whereas in the New Thunderbolts there's sabotage involved. He did exactly what he was set out to do.

And there were no Avengers around during Civil War, SHIELD drafted Wonder Man and went to investigate the whole matter and for some odd reason said he was out gunned when really he could have solo'ed all the Atlanteans.

Reed, Hank, and Tony were protected for Clor. If Tony is registered, he can use whatever force he deems necessary to solve the problem regardless of ethics. He does what he has to do to make it happen, I'm sure this makes people irate but that's what he does.

I'd argue that Norman becoming head of the TBolts after Stark pulled him out of jail qualifies as it blowing up in his face. Same thing with the TBolts. He let the genie out of the bottle, and lost control of it before he was able to put it back. Now they're out there.

As for there being no Avengers in Civil War... that on paper may have been true (though Biscop seemed to think they were Avengers), but the point is that he's clearly got the ability to form an army of heroes. If Stark indeed was aware of a problem, then rather than sending Green Goblin to blow them up he should have sent heroes to stop them. If you honestly believe that doing so was the legal, ethical, or even practical choice we can agree to disagree.

And perhaps Tony would be protected. But the fact that he kept it a secret makes me think otherwise. Again, he could have done ALL this out in the open. He could have sent SHIELD and a few heroes to bust the sleepers, and give the heroes and himself a nice high profile bust. Instead Stark does everything in a very shady and secretive manner... he certainly didn't seem happy that Ben was onto him. If you feel otherwise, then we clearly interpeted the book and the characters reactions very differently.

Bottom line for me is that in addition to being unethical and unlawful, it was a flat out STUPID plan that frankly isn't worth anyone's time defending.

[XPac]

If Stark has to kill some terrorists to protect his nation and he's protected by registration then that's what he'll do.

Yeah, but the question you're ignoring is this... does he actually HAVE to do this?

Is it smart? Does it make freaking sense to do it his way? What's the upside to NOT simply doing it the legal and right way?

Have you ever stopped to ask yourself those questions before coming out defending Stark for doing what he did?

[Eclips0]

Yes I call it a regime, when a person tries to take away the rights and freedoms of a group of people and uses extremely questionable tactics to do it then I call it a regime.

His plan was birthed in the blood of innocent people, how else could it end?

[Will.S]

I'd argue that Norman becoming head of the TBolts after Stark pulled him out of jail qualifies as it blowing up in his face. Same thing with the TBolts. He let the genie out of the bottle, and lost control of it before he was able to put it back. Now they're out there.
And he'll have to deal with both things going beyond his control but fact is he used them during the war and that's all he wanted to do. Having the gov't be so hands on post Civil War is one of the sacrifices he'll have to deal with.

As for there being no Avengers in Civil War... that on paper may have been true (though Biscop seemed to think they were Avengers), but the point is that he's clearly got the ability to form an army of heroes. If Stark indeed was aware of a problem, then rather than sending Green Goblin to blow them up he should have sent heroes to stop them. If you honestly believe that doing so was the legal, ethical, or even practical choice we can agree to disagree.
Then where it'll have to stand.

Would I do the same thing he did? No.

Do I understand why he did it and does he have grounds to stage such an attack? Yes.

[XPac]

Do I understand why he did it and does he have grounds to stage such an attack? Yes.

Well, if you can understand why he did it, feel free to elighten me.

Why would he mind control Green Goblin to blow them up, when he could just send SHIELD and a few superheroes to stop them. It would be legal, less bloody, and still achieve the same end result.

He'll can still generate the same fear in the public by exposing the fact that Atlantean terrorists live among them. He can get the same end result by having heroes act like heroes, rather than villains.

So why do it this way? What's the upside?

[Will.S]

Yeah, but the question you're ignoring is this... does he actually HAVE to do this?

Is it smart? Does it make freaking sense to do it his way? What's the upside to NOT simply doing it the legal and right way?
Depends on whether you can tolerate terrorists on that level. How do you know that it wasn't within his legal rights according to the registration act?

Have you ever stopped to ask yourself those questions before coming out defending Stark for doing what he did?
I don't have to agree with the stance of a character to understabd why he did things.

[Mark_S]

In response to your last point, read my last post. You totally negated it.

As for weapons being different than people, that is total bull. Fortunately or unfortunately for them they were born as a weapon. For the security of the nation they have to register, even if they don't plan on using their powers. I doubt you would be comfortable with a nuclear weapon in the house next to you.

"For the security of the nation." "It is by my wish that the bearer of this has done what they have done for the good of the state. Cardinal Richelue" Once you start negating someones rights for something they might do in the future you start down a very dark path. An expert marksman, a knive thrower, a munitions expert... all of them could do a lot of damage. Do you take away their right to privacy? I have the potential to break a lot of laws, to do a lot of damage, should the government be proactive against me as well?

Mark_S

[Will.S]

Well, if you can understand why he did it, feel free to elighten me.

Why would he mind control Green Goblin to blow them up, when he could just send SHIELD and a few superheroes to stop them. It would be legal, less bloody, and still achieve the same end result.

He'll can still generate the same fear in the public by exposing the fact that Atlantean terrorists live among them. He can get the same end result by having heroes act like heroes, rather than villains.

So why do it this way? What's the upside?
1) One you're using a psychopath villain with no chance of redemption as a weapon so if he dies, no big loss.

2) SHIELD agents are pretty incompetent and are normally fodder. You had Wonder Man saying that he needed back-up and couldn't handle it solo whereas Norman leveled the place and got the job done. There are your results.

[Eclips0]

1) One you're using a psychopath villain with no chance of redemption as a weapon so if he dies, no big loss.

2) SHIELD agents are pretty incompetent and are normally fodder.

Then you yourself become a villain if lives no longer mean anything to you.

[Will.S]

Then you yourself become a villain if lives no longer mean anything to you.
I don't think I'd be interested in becoming a comic book character even if someone like Iron Man is so interesting to read about.

Besides, this was like what a one time deal?

[Eclips0]

Doesn't matter, what makes a hero a hero is that they have lines they will not cross and Tony has pretty much crossed them all.

[XPac]

1) One you're using a villain as a weapon so if he dies, no loss.

2) SHIELD agents are pretty incompetent and are normally fodder.

So it's your belief that Stark felt the Atlanteans were such a threat that he didn't want to risk any superheroes trying to apprehend them? That's your understanding of Starks logic here?

And SHIELD agents are competent enough to invade the city of Atlantis itself, but not tackle a group of sleepers in a wearhouse.

Well, if your interpretation of Starks logic is accurate, he still comes off just as stupid.

[mikekerr3]

Then you yourself become a villain if lives no longer mean anything to you.

You are scum if you think enslavement via nanites is acceptable in any form. Control would be OK if voletary. You are scim if you think murder to achieve domestic political ends are acceptable.

And any one who thinks "Cannon Fodder" are expendable shoud wear a uniform for a while or shut up. thos e uniforms have people in them.

[Will.S]

Doesn't matter, what makes a hero a hero is that they have lines they will not cross and Tony has pretty much crossed them all.
And some are in a gray area and aren't so black and white.

Example: Wolverine.

[mikekerr3]

Reed, Hank, and Tony were protected for Clor. If Tony is registered, he can use whatever force he deems necessary to solve the problem regardless of ethics. He does what he has to do to make it happen, I'm sure this makes people irate but that's what he does.

Thats exactly what makes hi a villian. If you operate reguardless of ethics then no matter what you cause you are evil. Ethics are only thought disposable by sociopaths.

[Will.S]

You are scum if you think enslavement via nanites is acceptable in any form. Control would be OK if voletary. You are scim if you think murder to achieve domestic political ends are acceptable.

And any one who thinks "Cannon Fodder" are expendable shoud wear a uniform for a while or shut up. thos e uniforms have people in them.
It's comic books, unclench.

[XPac]

You had Wonder Man saying that he needed back-up and couldn't handle it solo whereas Norman leveled the place and got the job done. There are your results.

So you're saying that Stark sending in a team of superheroes couldn''t get comparable or even better results? I guess Stark has a pretty low opinion of his comrades them.

Just my opinion... but sending in a few Avengers would likely stop the sleepers only with far less bloodshed. If you or Stark feel otherwise, again we can agree to disagree. The heroes track record for getting results far outweight Normans from my perspective.

[mindcrime]

Yes I call it a regime, when a person tries to take away the rights and freedoms of a group of people and uses extremely questionable tactics to do it then I call it a regime.

His plan was birthed in the blood of innocent people, how else could it end?



good god. tony was the middle man! this was the goverments plan! tony didnt want to take thier rights away! it was either him or (most likely) gyrich. then insted of 1 accidental death (bill foster), they are all dead! it is this simple: tony takes charge, & tries to bring them in with minimal damage, or the goverment uses sentinals to do it, & more than likely they are all dead. his plan was birthed in the blood of innocent people....spare me. yeah, stark is the friggin red skull. his plan was to save the heroes so they wouldnt get hunted down like dogs & murdered. let me guess...youve read civil war, thor #3, & pt 1 of one more day right? if people read the iron man & cap books, they would see he's not like that at all. jms protrays him as a f@#$%in villian every time he writes him. you could the 1st 100 issues of iron man in front of some writers, & they still wouldnt have clue how to write tony. tony only had so much control. remember when spidey switched sides? tony told hill to stop, he just wanted to talk to peter a bit longer. hill out ranked him, & sent the bad guys after him, not tony. if tony was soooo f@#$%in evil, he wouldnt have even tried to talk to cap. he would have just brought him in, dead or alive. hell, if he's sooo evil, he should be helping the skrulls. why not just sit back, & let the skrulls do the work for him? :rolleyes:

[Will.S]

Thats exactly what makes hi a villian. If you operate reguardless of ethics then no matter what you cause you are evil. Ethics are only thought disposable by sociopaths.
Hence the term "gray area".

So you're saying that Stark sending in a team of superheroes couldn''t get comparable or even better results? I guess Stark has a pretty low opinion of his comrades them.

Just my opinion... but sending in a few Avengers would likely stop the sleepers only with far less bloodshed. If you or Stark feel otherwise, again we can agree to disagree. The heroes track record for getting results far outweight Normans from my perspective.
That depends on whether he wanted to use lethal force. If he didn't he would have used fellow Avengers.

[XPac]

Hence the term "gray area".


That depends on whether he wanted to use lethal force. If he didn't he would have used fellow Avengers.

If Osborne had weaponry that could hospitalize Wonder Man, then I think it's pretty obvious Stark was playing for keeps.

So if we're all in agreement that Stark was planning to murder them, I'll happily concede that using GG was the more effective way to do that (though far less ethical and legal option) and leave it at that.

[Will.S]

If Osborne had weaponry that could hospitalize Wonder Man, then I think it's pretty obvious Stark was playing for keeps.

So if we're all in agreement that Stark was planning to murder them, I'll happily concede that using GG was the more effective way to do that (though far less ethical and legal option) and leave it at that.
Yay Stark!

[mikekerr3]

It's comic books, unclench.


We are also talking about basic concepts of good and evil.

[Eclips0]

Getting innocent people killed, lying to your friends and betraying them, violating your friends by cloning them, taking away peoples rights a freedoms, and putting people under your control and using them as pawns is not a grey area.

He has stepped over the "grey area" line.

[mikekerr3]

good god. tony was the middle man! this was the goverments plan! tony didnt want to take thier rights away! it was either him or (most likely) gyrich. then insted of 1 accidental death (bill foster), they are all dead! it is this simple: tony takes charge, & tries to bring them in with minimal damage, or the goverment uses sentinals to do it, & more than likely they are all dead. his plan was birthed in the blood of innocent people....spare me. yeah, stark is the friggin red skull. his plan was to save the heroes so they wouldnt get hunted down like dogs & murdered. let me guess...youve read civil war, thor #3, & pt 1 of one more day right? if people read the iron man & cap books, they would see he's not like that at all. jms protrays him as a f@#$%in villian every time he writes him. you could the 1st 100 issues of iron man in front of some writers, & they still wouldnt have clue how to write tony. tony only had so much control. remember when spidey switched sides? tony told hill to stop, he just wanted to talk to peter a bit longer. hill out ranked him, & sent the bad guys after him, not tony. if tony was soooo f@#$%in evil, he wouldnt have even tried to talk to cap. he would have just brought him in, dead or alive. hell, if he's sooo evil, he should be helping the skrulls. why not just sit back, & let the skrulls do the work for him? :rolleyes:

He is not an absolute evil figure just a man who refuses to let law,ethics or morals get in his way. that makes him evil.

Spidey was onlychased by Shield after Tony told him of the crimes Tony and Co. were commiting.

If he was lying then he attacked Peter after intentionally driving him away. 42 as he described it in ASM was both ilegal and immoral, could he have expected Peter to help with something that immoral. If It was a test Spidey passed it by choosing justice over law.

[Will.S]

Getting innocent people killed....
What are you referring to?

[mindcrime]

ya know guys, with what i just found out is happening in the last part of one more day, none of this may matter. they say it wont screw up civil war. thats a bunch of crap.

[mikekerr3]

Hence the term "gray area".
.

Are you saying that Criminally Sociopathic behavior is a gray area? That would make the Bullseye a hero too and Dr. Doom. One is now a cop,legally maiming people and the other seems to run a country faily well. Are your Standard of good and evil that flexible?

If so what is Evil?

Is it anything murderous, corrupt, deceitful or criminal done by some body else than Tony Stark?

[Jake V]

Who is Iron Man maiming?

[Eclips0]

Just want to say Merry Christmas everyone!! We have a really good debate going here and whether you agree with me or not I want to wish you all the best!!!

[TotalWorldDomination]

Are you saying that Criminally Sociopathic behavior is a gray area? That would make the Bullseye a hero too and Dr. Doom. One is now a cop,legally maiming people and the other seems to run a country faily well. Are your Standard of good and evil that flexible?

If so what is Evil?

Is it anything murderous, corrupt, deceitful or criminal done by some body else than Tony Stark?

Criminally Sociopathic?
Murderous?
Corrupt?
Deceitful?
Criminal?
On par with Bullseye and Dr. Doom?

What comics are you reading? See, we read marvel, and you appear to be reading something by Brent Easton Ellis.

Tony has done NOTHING that could be considered sociopathic, murderous or corrupt. Criminal is an argument, but then again, you're out here on record saying that laws that you don't agree with or find useful are made to be broken- your beloved cap breaks many many laws in the run of his comic and especially during Civil War.

[TotalWorldDomination]

Just want to say Merry Christmas everyone!! We have a really good debate going here and whether you agree with me or not I want to wish you all the best!!!

Aww, thanks Eclips0! Have a very merry!

[jackolover]

He is not an absolute evil figure just a man who refuses to let law,ethics or morals get in his way. that makes him evil.

Spidey was onlychased by Shield after Tony told him of the crimes Tony and Co. were commiting.

If he was lying then he attacked Peter after intentionally driving him away. 42 as he described it in ASM was both ilegal and immoral, could he have expected Peter to help with something that immoral. If It was a test Spidey passed it by choosing justice over law.

I think Tony showing Peter the 42 prison, was introducing Peter to the shadier side of the real world, and hoping Peter would see that questionable methods have to be used, and to get on with it. Peter had to learn, sometime, the methods used by the pro-reg side, and that they were harsh, and illegal. Peter was a soft and sensitive boy, and couldn't accept that questional methods are happening all over the place, and so put the superhero community in jeopody when he defected, by escalating the conflict. Some people can't see passed old-school superheroing. If Peter was willing to accept places like 42, and things like Clor, then Tonys work would have been made easier. But it just showed, that you can't convince everybody to resort to harsh methods, no matter how serious the issue hinges on resolving quickly.

Tony deserves plaudits for being IGN's :Hero of the year, because he did succeed in achieving an alternative to Project Wideawake, with minimal casualties to the metas. A more ideal solution would have been preferrable, but as the state of the union stands now, the result was a fair outcome.

[Eclips0]

Not every law should be obeyed and it's not because we simply don't like them, it's becasue they are wrong and unconstitutional.

Tony lied, betrayed, cloned someone without their consent and used that clone to commit murder, controlled people, violated the civil rights of people who trusted him. He decided how he thought things should be run and eliminated anyone who disagreed with him.

And he can weep at cap's grave all he wants, until they have him admit to the public that he was wrong, in my eyes he can never be redeemed. To me he is villain.

[Eclips0]

Aww, thanks Eclips0! Have a very merry!

You too, mon ami!

[XPac]

Tony has done NOTHING that could be considered sociopathic, murderous or corrupt.

I don't think he's a sociopath... but murderous and corrupt are arguable.

Having Green Goblin murder people with pumkin bombs can be considered murderous, or in the least corrupt.

[mindcrime]

I think Tony showing Peter the 42 prison, was introducing Peter to the shadier side of the real world, and hoping Peter would see that questionable methods have to be used, and to get on with it. Peter had to learn, sometime, the methods used by the pro-reg side, and that they were harsh, and illegal. Peter was a soft and sensitive boy, and couldn't accept that questional methods are happening all over the place, and so put the superhero community in jeopody when he defected, by escalating the conflict. Some people can't see passed old-school superheroing. If Peter was willing to accept places like 42, and things like Clor, then Tonys work would have been made easier. But it just showed, that you can't convince everybody to resort to harsh methods, no matter how serious the issue hinges on resolving quickly.

Tony deserves plaudits for being IGN's :Hero of the year, because he did succeed in achieving an alternative to Project Wideawake, with minimal casualties to the metas. A more ideal solution would have been preferrable, but as the state of the union stands now, the result was a fair outcome.




but see, with one more day, all of that is GONE!!!!!

[TotalWorldDomination]

I don't think he's a sociopath... but murderous and corrupt are arguable.

Having Green Goblin murder people with pumkin bombs can be considered murderous, or in the least corrupt.

He's having a government asset attack foreign terrorists amassing on American soil, and he's doing the whole thing as a covert action. Nothing murderous or corrupt there.

[XPac]

He's having a government asset attack foreign terrorists amassing on American soil, and he's doing the whole thing as a covert action. Nothing murderous or corrupt there.

He's doing it covert alright... I don't think his own government knows about it (it clearly wasn't mentioned in Starks Civil War files to the president).

Whether or not using mind control to blow up people to sway public opinion is murderous or not is at least a debatable point. I DO think he could have resolved the situation without the use of lethal force, but chose not to. And given how Frontline explained his motives, it appeared he was more concerned with scaring the public into agreeing with his agenda than he was stopping the Atlanteans. That's at least corrupt in not murderous... those are pretty ridiculous lengths to go about swaying public opinion.

His staged assasination attempt on the Atlantean Ambassador, as well as paying Titanium Man to commit an attack in Congress, arguably falls under the category of corrupt too.

[Eclips0]

He grew a clone without consent and allowed that Clone to commit murder. Under our laws he would be held accountable for that. Goliath was doing nothing to warrant lethal force.

Tony may be a villain now, but a really good writer could do a redemption story and make it grand. It would start with Tony admitting to the public and apologizing for everything he's done and then have him serve time for a few issues and have him come out a new man.

[bulbasteve]

so......who are the innocent people again?

And why hasn't Namor himself ever brought up any of this to Stark? Or was Namor happy that the rogue Atlantians were killed? :D

He grew a clone without consent and allowed that Clone to commit murder. Under our laws he would be held accountable for that. Goliath was doing nothing to warrant lethal force.

Throwing a semi-truck at normal humans wouldn't warrent lethal force? What would then? If a criminal even points a gun at someone you are allowed to shoot, I think throwing a truck kinda went far past that. :p

[Eclips0]

Goliath, the people injured or killed in their battles. People the Thunderbolts have injured or killed. The atlantian issue prings to mind.

[bulbasteve]

Goliath, the people injured or killed in their battles. People the Thunderbolts have injured or killed. The atlantian issue prings to mind.

So someone who threw a semi-truck at tiny little law enforcers, SHIELD agents (here I thought you guys said they were evil, what only these ones were good? :P) and terrorists.

And that would make it seem that by your own standards that Cap is equally to blame for Goldbug and Plunderer's deaths. And frankly I think they were far more innocent....afterall they wanted to help Cap :p

[Eclips0]

Cap took out Punisher for what he did.

Tony allowed that clone, which he created by violating Thor and his trust, to commit murder, he is responsible for that death.

[TotalWorldDomination]

Goliath, the people injured or killed in their battles. People the Thunderbolts have injured or killed. The atlantian issue prings to mind.

Goliath- Combatant in a war situation. Not innocent.

People killed in there battles- sadly due to the marvel "no collateral" rule, there are none. Also I'd point out that every action taken by tony was taken with a clear eye to avoiding even property damage. The only civs confirmed killed were the people of stamford.

Thunderbolts Victims- again we haven't seen any innocent by standards killed.

Atlantian Sleeper Agents- Terrorists on american soil.

[bulbasteve]

Cap took out Punisher for what he did.

Tony allowed that clone, which he created by violating Thor and his trust, to commit murder, he is responsible for that death.

So are we saying Cap was too dumb to know that the Punisher would kill criminals? Geez at least Tony has the excuse of he forgot to carry a 5 somewhere in his math.

Of course the clone wasn't created for murder obviously, nor allowed either. What If Civil War showed that if Cap did not fry Tony's circuts he would have been able to stop the blast (good job on that cap!)

[TotalWorldDomination]

Cap took out Punisher for what he did.

Tony allowed that clone, which he created by violating Thor and his trust, to commit murder, he is responsible for that death.

Murder is not the word for what happened. Murder implys premeditation. At worst Clor is guilty of Manslaughter, making tony an accessory to manslaughter. Still, he was an enemy during a time of war, and he was using lethal force. hard to argue that it was something as dirty as murder.

[mindcrime]

Cap took out Punisher for what he did.

Tony allowed that clone, which he created by violating Thor and his trust, to commit murder, he is responsible for that death.



um, tony supplied the hair. reed & pym made & programmed the clone. i dont see ANYONE going after them, & its bull****. those two just as responsable, if not more so. tony catches all the flak for it, while those 2 winnies dont get crap. its not right. it was reeds idea for the negitive zone prison & once again, tony catches all the flak for it. thats what ticks me off more than anything else. those guys just get a free pass. i dont see thor whooping on thier ass, most likely because they are to scared to face him. i used to like hank pym & reed richards. now im just starting to think they are cowards. one thing that tony is not. those 2 boys need to man up. everyone sits here & says that if tony would just say he's sorry.....what about them 2? dont see anybody complaining about them. its not right that tony takes all the blame.

[bulbasteve]

Hey now, Reed will someday have the cajones to fix all the worlds problems!

[XPac]

Goliath- Combatant in a war situation. Not innocent.

People killed in there battles- sadly due to the marvel "no collateral" rule, there are none. Also I'd point out that every action taken by tony was taken with a clear eye to avoiding even property damage. The only civs confirmed killed were the people of stamford.

Thunderbolts Victims- again we haven't seen any innocent by standards killed.

Atlantian Sleeper Agents- Terrorists on american soil.

In the case of the TBolts, we clearly saw Bullseye kill the soldiers watching him. We didn't actually see Venom kill those innocent bystandards he attacked... my money is on Venom winning that exchange but I guess since it's off panel we'll say that's OKAY.

As for the sleepers... terrorists or not, I do find it a bit disturbing how people so readily defend the notion of blowing up people without due process. Stark could have easily sent a few superheroes in there and likely have resolved the situation with minimal or even no casualites. Instead he just blows them up... and in the minds of many thats okay. If you can resolve a situation with minimal blood shed, you do... opting not to simply to scare the public is ridiculously wrong. Do we really want heroes and law enforcement in a comicbook or the real world acting this way? Are we really at the point where lives and due process mean so little in comparssion to political convinience? If so, it's something to be pitied... not defended.

[Eclips0]

[QUOTE=TotalWorldDomination;6038154]Murder is not the word for what happened. Murder implys premeditation. At worst Clor is guilty of Manslaughter, making tony an accessory to manslaughter. Still, he was an enemy during a time of war, and he was using lethal force. hard to argue that it was something as dirty as murder.[/QUOTE

It was not a time of war, I don't remember an official declaration. It was second degree murder. And lethal force was not warranted.

[XPac]

um, tony supplied the hair. reed & pym made & programmed the clone. i dont see ANYONE going after them, & its bull****. those two just as responsable, if not more so. tony catches all the flak for it, while those 2 winnies dont get crap. its not right. it was reeds idea for the negitive zone prison & once again, tony catches all the flak for it. thats what ticks me off more than anything else. those guys just get a free pass. i dont see thor whooping on thier ass, most likely because they are to scared to face him. i used to like hank pym & reed richards. now im just starting to think they are cowards. one thing that tony is not. those 2 boys need to man up. everyone sits here & says that if tony would just say he's sorry.....what about them 2? dont see anybody complaining about them. its not right that tony takes all the blame.

If Reed and Hank walked up to Tony and threatened him to work for the government, Thor probably would have whooped their behinds too.

Reed and Hank are in different boats.

Hank is a pill popping mess of a human doing that's covering up the Initiatives wrong doings even from Stark. It's wrong, but he's clearly suffering for it. And most importantly, no one is bothering to defend Hanks actions like people do Tony. I would dare say if Hank supporters did defend him, we'd get board debates about him too. But no one seems to be doing that.

In Reeds case, I think he already did apologize. And post CW, he gave up on the notion of hunting down other heroes and freely aided Spidey when he needed the help. Doesn't completely get him off the hook to some degree... the current FF storyline with Doom is Reeds story and we'll see how that ends up. I'd personally like him to be held accountable for a few more things too... hopefully that will happen.

[mindcrime]

In the case of the TBolts, we clearly saw Bullseye kill the soldiers watching him. We didn't actually see Venom kill those innocent bystandards he attacked... my money is on Venom winning that exchange but I guess since it's off panel we'll say that's OKAY.

As for the sleepers... terrorists or not, I do find it a bit disturbing how people so readily defend the notion of blowing up people without due process. Stark could have easily sent a few superheroes in there and likely have resolved the situation with minimal or even no casualites. Instead he just blows them up... and in the minds of many thats okay. If you can resolve a situation with minimal blood shed, you do... opting not to simply to scare the public is ridiculously wrong. Do we really want heroes and law enforcement in a comicbook or the real world acting this way? Are we really at the point where lives and due process mean so little in comparssion to political convinience? If so, it's something to be pitied... not defended.




which is why for months now, ive been saying that the goverment has something on tony. someone has been manipulating him into doing things. im beginning to think the skrulls are behind alot of this crap. i know marvel said that secret invasion wouldnt impact civil war, but to be honest, after everything ive seen marvel do, i just dont believe them.

[XPac]

which is why for months now, ive been saying that the goverment has something on tony. someone has been manipulating him into doing things. im beginning to think the skrulls are behind alot of this crap. i know marvel said that secret invasion wouldnt impact civil war, but to be honest, after everything ive seen marvel do, i just dont believe them.

Well, if someone does want to retcon Civil War (something Marvel said wouldn't happen... but ya never know), it's possible.

Tony has a history of being manipulated for his more severe actions in the past. Galactic Storm and the Crossing ended up manipulation by Kang/Immortus. And the Extremis is always an option if they ever want to give him a free pass. Not to mention the Skrulls.

We'll see. It was done for Hal Jordon. I thought at the time it was a bit of a cop out... but it got the job done and brought him back to instance hero status with no questions asked from the viewerbase. Wonder if that's something that will be necessary for Wanda down the line too.

[Eclips0]

It was Kang the last time if you remember "The Crossing".

[mindcrime]

If Reed and Hank walked up to Tony and threatened him to work for the government, Thor probably would have whooped their behinds too.

Reed and Hank are in different boats.

Hank is a pill popping mess of a human doing that's covering up the Initiatives wrong doings even from Stark. It's wrong, but he's clearly suffering for it. And most importantly, no one is bothering to defend Hanks actions like people do Tony. I would dare say if Hank supporters did defend him, we'd get board debates about him too. But no one seems to be doing that.

In Reeds case, I think he already did apologize. And post CW, he gave up on the notion of hunting down other heroes and freely aided Spidey when he needed the help. Doesn't completely get him off the hook to some degree... the current FF storyline with Doom is Reeds story and we'll see how that ends up. I'd personally like him to be held accountable for a few more things too... hopefully that will happen.




well, during WWH & its aftermath, all the avengers helped & i have yet to see tony try to arrest any of them. you say hank is suffering for it. SO IS TONY. if anybody read his book, they would see it. hank's poping pills & tony's on the edge of a full nervious breakdown. im not trying to make anyone feel sorry for tony,cause thats just not possible. im just stating a fact. he's gonna lose it, then gyrich will take over & then everyone will be happy.

[Eclips0]

I don't want him to go nuts, just have him admit to the public the things he;s done and apolgize.

[XPac]

well, during WWH & its aftermath, all the avengers helped & i have yet to see tony try to arrest any of them. you say hank is suffering for it. SO IS TONY. if anybody read his book, they would see it. hank's poping pills & tony's on the edge of a full nervious breakdown. im not trying to make anyone feel sorry for tony,cause thats just not possible. im just stating a fact. he's gonna lose it, then gyrich will take over & then everyone will be happy.

Sure, but right after CW what happened? Tony uses Caps death to try and trap the NA. And he uses spin tech on She-Hulk after banging her while hiding the fact that he exiled her cousin into space. Add that plus the Thor thing, and it's easy to see why people still have issues with Tony's behavior.

Reed has basically returned to his status quo... but Hank and Tony are a different matter.

[Eclips0]

Actually I have issues with Reed as well. And what Tony did to She Hulk was also a violation. And more proof of his need to control everyone.

[Will.S]

Murder is not the word for what happened. Murder implys premeditation. At worst Clor is guilty of Manslaughter, making tony an accessory to manslaughter. Still, he was an enemy during a time of war, and he was using lethal force. hard to argue that it was something as dirty as murder.That's about as fair a way to put it as any.

[Eclips0]

It was not a time of war, I don't remember an official declaration. It was second degree murder. And lethal force was not warranted.

[mindcrime]

I don't want him to go nuts, just have him admit to the public the things he;s done and apolgize.




thats fine. he did make mistakes & i wish he would apolgize for them. im just telling you that he is suffering. mainly over cap's death. he has lost his shield command, mainly because he is having wide awake nightmares now & the sec. of defense is working against him. ive been an iron man fan for 35 years & i know when marvel's getting ready to have him lose it. its coming, trust me.

[Eclips0]

Thats fine but until he admits publically whats he's done and is punished in some legal way, he can never be redeemed in my eyes.

[mindcrime]

Sure, but right after CW what happened? Tony uses Caps death to try and trap the NA. And he uses spin tech on She-Hulk after banging her while hiding the fact that he exiled her cousin into space. Add that plus the Thor thing, and it's easy to see why people still have issues with Tony's behavior.

Reed has basically returned to his status quo... but Hank and Tony are a different matter.



does anyone notice when tony says "if i dont do this, THEY WILL?" mmmm....i really wish marvel would tell us who 'they' are. im betting "they" are alot worse than him.

[Eclips0]

If he really thinks there's someone worse out there who could take control he should've become proactive and organized people to fight them.

[XPac]

does anyone notice when tony says "if i dont do this, THEY WILL?" mmmm....i really wish marvel would tell us who 'they' are. im betting "they" are alot worse than him.

I think the problem is no one buys it when they say it.

Cap was actually MORE vulnerable to danger because he was arrested by SHIELD. He frankly would have been a whole lot safer hanging out at Strange's house (not that it was an option during CW... just saying).

"They" could be the TBolts. "They" could be the Skrulls. "They" could be the government. Either way, I'm not convinced they are safer from "them" sitting in a cell with spin tech negating their powers than they are under the protection of Dr. Strange.

[mindcrime]

If he really thinks there's someone worse out there who could take control he should've become proactive and organized people to fight them.




well, the watcher just showed tony what would have happened if he wouldnt have been here. we would have had a army of sentinals, a bunch of thor clones, & alot of dead heroes.

[Eclips0]

So now that he knows that, he sould go to the heroes and organize them to be ready to fight and he should be working from the inside to bring those people and Gyrich and Hill down. But until he is publicaly punished for what he;s done, I cannot see him as redeemed.

[XPac]

well, the watcher just showed tony what would have happened if he wouldnt have been here. we would have had a army of sentinals, a bunch of thor clones, & alot of dead heroes.

Course, an arguement can be made that he's the reason they had a bunch of Thor clones to begin with. The Sentinal Squad ONE came from Stark too.

Maybe Stark would have an easier time defending the heroes from this stuff if he didn't give it to them in the first place.

[Will.S]

As for the sleepers... terrorists or not, I do find it a bit disturbing how people so readily defend the notion of blowing up people without due process. Stark could have easily sent a few superheroes in there and likely have resolved the situation with minimal or even no casualites. Instead he just blows them up... and in the minds of many thats okay. If you can resolve a situation with minimal blood shed, you do... opting not to simply to scare the public is ridiculously wrong. Do we really want heroes and law enforcement in a comicbook or the real world acting this way? Are we really at the point where lives and due process mean so little in comparssion to political convinience? If so, it's something to be pitied... not defended.
If Stark did this all the time then he'd be as bad as Punisher but so far I haven't seen anything as extreme as that outside of the Clor/Bill Foster stuff.

If it were up to me, I wouldn't approach that type of threat in the same manner as Stark as I'd likely do it in the similar manner to Spider-Man or maybe Cap would if I were put in his position. At the same time I can understand that type of threat necessitating lethal force because stuff like that happens in the MU all the time and is met with very little tolerance by SHIELD or other superheroes who constantly put down terrorist factions.

[mindcrime]

Course, an arguement can be made that he's the reason they had a bunch of Thor clones to begin with. The Sentinal Squad ONE came from Stark too.

Maybe Stark would have an easier time defending the heroes from this stuff if he didn't give it to them in the first place.



i dont remember tony giving the thor hair to anyone. i just assumed someone in the goverment stole it. it doesnt say how they got the hair, or that sentinal one strike force is tony's tech. i got the book in front of me & it doesnt say how they got either one. did it happen in another book i missed?

[mindcrime]

So now that he knows that, he sould go to the heroes and organize them to be ready to fight and he should be working from the inside to bring those people and Gyrich and Hill down. But until he is publicaly punished for what he;s done, I cannot see him as redeemed.




i agree that tony should do that, but i dont think we have the whole story yet. i believe that hill is a skrull & it wouldnt surprise me if gyrich was too. hill the one that got tony relived of his command. i think the goverment got what they wanted out of tony, & now they are trying to get him out of the way.

[XPac]

i dont remember tony giving the thor hair to anyone. i just assumed someone in the goverment stole it. it doesnt say how they got the hair, or that sentinal one strike force is tony's tech. i got the book in front of me & it doesnt say how they got either one. did it happen in another book i missed?

Stark designed Sentinal Squad ONE (unless the What If universe is different from the 616 history). They had their own series right after Decimation if you're curious about them.

As for the Thor clones... I don't recall Tony giving the hair to anyone either. But if he didn't take the freaking hair to grow Clors, then odds are there wouldn't be any. We don't know that complete backstory of the Clors, but that's my assumption.

Here's the thing... the government for DECADES have been completely incapable of dealing with supervillains. Yet now, they're suddenly a threat to the heroes, who regularly beat the villains and face off against alien armies far more advanced than the freaking US government. Why is that? Really, that was my whole problem with the premise of Days of Future Past to begin with. Why did the heroes lose?

I wonder if the answer to that isn't Stark. We see Stark coming up with the spin tech. We've seen him grow Clors. And as I stated, the latest Sentinals were designed by him, with pilots trained by his buddy Rhodney.

Under different circumstances, I'd argue arming the government is a good thing. But if he KNOWS this government could conceivably try to kill the hero community, I sort of question the wisdom of it.

[mindcrime]

Stark designed Sentinal Squad ONE (unless the What If universe is different from the 616 history). They had their own series right after Decimation if you're curious about them.

As for the Thor clones... I don't recall Tony giving the hair to anyone either. But if he didn't take the freaking hair to grow Clors, then odds are there wouldn't be any. We don't know that complete backstory of the Clors, but that's my assumption.

Here's the thing... the government for DECADES have been completely incapable of dealing with supervillains. Yet now, they're suddenly a threat to the heroes, who regularly beat the villains and face off against alien armies far more advanced than the freaking US government. Why is that? Really, that was my whole problem with the premise of Days of Future Past to begin with. Why did the heroes lose?

I wonder if the answer to that isn't Stark. We see Stark coming up with the spin tech. We've seen him grow Clors. And as I stated, the latest Sentinals were designed by him, with pilots trained by his buddy Rhodney.

Under different circumstances, I'd argue arming the government is a good thing. But if he KNOWS this government could conceivably try to kill the hero community, I sort of question the wisdom of it.





well, in the what if issue, tony tells the watcher that the reason he took the hair in the 1st place, was to make sure thor was who he said he was & not some loon with a hammer (this was wayyy back when the avengers 1st got together). the watcher didnt call him on it, so its safe to say he was telling the truth. once again, tony did not "grow" clor. reed & pym did. as far as the heroes losing, well as far as what if goes, beating an army of sentinals & thors was a little too much to over come. that & the fact that the x-men sat the whole thing out, ( except for logan). now i remember about the sentinal thing. it was tony's. but i think he had a fail safe built into that tech & with him dead, there was no one to stop them.

[Will.S]

I wonder if the answer to that isn't Stark. We see Stark coming up with the spin tech. We've seen him grow Clors. And as I stated, the latest Sentinals were designed by him, with pilots trained by his buddy Rhodney.

Under different circumstances, I'd argue arming the government is a good thing. But if he KNOWS this government could conceivably try to kill the hero community, I sort of question the wisdom of it.
I don't think Stark would hand over all that tech without having counter measures or failsafe's of his own similar to what he did to Spider-Man's suit. Same should go to Reed and Hank although Hank less so than the other two.

[XPac]

I don't think Stark would hand over all that tech without having counter measures or failsafe's of his own similar to what he did to Spider-Man's suit. Same should go to Reed and Hank although Hank less so than the other two.

The Spider Suit is a perfect example of why we perhaps should be worried. Those counter measures lasted all of 2 seconds.

[XPac]

well, in the what if issue, tony tells the watcher that the reason he took the hair in the 1st place, was to make sure thor was who he said he was & not some loon with a hammer (this was wayyy back when the avengers 1st got together). the watcher didnt call him on it, so its safe to say he was telling the truth. once again, tony did not "grow" clor. reed & pym did. as far as the heroes losing, well as far as what if goes, beating an army of sentinals & thors was a little too much to over come. that & the fact that the x-men sat the whole thing out, ( except for logan). now i remember about the sentinal thing. it was tony's. but i think he had a fail safe built into that tech & with him dead, there was no one to stop them.

My arguement was that if it wasn't for Stark, the government wouldn't have Clors. I'm not sure anything you said really takes away from that. I don't have the What if in front of me like you do, so if the book tells of how they possible got Thor hair some other means and I missed it, then I'll withdraw the point.

And perhaps I'm overthinking this... but consider that in the few months since CW we've seen a clone, mind controlling nanos, spin tech, a doomsday machine, and a weather controlling device. Basically, every cliched evil mad scientist tool in the book was whipped out by Stark in recent weeks for the government. I don't deny potential good in theory couldn't come out of government having all of this... but that What If clearly illustrated the downside to it too.

[Will.S]

The Spider Suit is a perfect example of why we perhaps should be worried. Those counter measures lasted all of 2 seconds.
Similar to when Spider-Man switched sides though, we all saw that coming. Spider-Man knowing that Stark had it rigged was among the main sub-plots in the title.

[mattbib]

It was Kang the last time if you remember "The Crossing".
Wrong, Immortus was behind the Crossing, not Kang. Read "Avengers Forever".

[XPac]

We all saw that coming though, Spider-Man knowing that Stark had it rigged was among the sub-plots.

Sure, but I'm just pointing out a pattern of behavior here.

Tony thought he had all the bases covered, but he underestimated the person he was dealing with. He did it with Spidey. He did it with Cap. He did it with She-Hulk, and for reasons beyond comprehension he even underestimated Thor.

He's a arrogant SOB. That can come back to haunt him if he underestimates the people he's handing the Doomsday Device and the Weather Controlling machines over to. Also, if the Weather Controlling Machine, the Doomsday Devices, Clor, or the spin tech all fall into the "wrong hands" I think it'll be fair to say we all say that coming too.

[mikekerr3]

does anyone notice when tony says "if i dont do this, THEY WILL?" mmmm....i really wish marvel would tell us who 'they' are. im betting "they" are alot worse than him.


He seem to be helping "they" everything he done with registration, 42 and Spin helps "they".

[mindcrime]

My arguement was that if it wasn't for Stark, the government wouldn't have Clors. I'm not sure anything you said really takes away from that. I don't have the What if in front of me like you do, so if the book tells of how they possible got Thor hair some other means and I missed it, then I'll withdraw the point.

And perhaps I'm overthinking this... but consider that in the few months since CW we've seen a clone, mind controlling nanos, spin tech, a doomsday machine, and a weather controlling device. Basically, every cliched evil mad scientist tool in the book was whipped out by Stark in recent weeks for the government. I don't deny potential good in theory couldn't come out of government having all of this... but that What If clearly illustrated the downside to it too.





well, i also think that tony got into this, he thought he could keep a handle on all of it. now its gotten too big for 1 man to handle & he's starting too buckle under the pressure. that & the people that he went out on the limb to help ( the goverment) have got what they needed out of stark, & now they are starting to work against him. thats tony's fault, he should know better.

[Will.S]

He's a arrogant SOB. That can come back to haunt him if he underestimates the people he's handing the Doomsday Device and the Weather Controlling machines over to.
He's arrogant and that will get him back in the end but the doomsday device and the weather satellites weren't handed over to anyone, especially not the gov't. He even had Dugan get parts of the doomsday machine contructed by different teams so they wouldn't know what they were working on.

Also, if the Weather Controlling Machine, the Doomsday Devices, Clor, or the spin tech all fall into the "wrong hands" I think it'll be fair to say we all say that coming too.
The weather controlling machine and the doomsday devices were either destroyed or unfinished. I wouldn't be surprised if someone got a hold of these but then again I don't see why he wouldn't have countermeasures for people taking over his tech either given the Armor Wars story. All you need to negate SPIN tech are forcefields or magnetic fields if they're metal.

But time will tell if Iron Man will even have to face that.

[Mark_S]

Here's the thing... the government for DECADES have been completely incapable of dealing with supervillains. Yet now, they're suddenly a threat to the heroes, who regularly beat the villains and face off against alien armies far more advanced than the freaking US government. Why is that? Really, that was my whole problem with the premise of Days of Future Past to begin with. Why did the heroes lose?

I always thought it was like the Revenge of the Sith in the 3rd (or 6th) Star Wars movie. There is a shot of thousands of storm troopers descending on the Jedi temple and simply winning by force of numbers. Asside from the Sentinel robots I always thought there were thousands of human operatives as well. After cw I go on the assumption that along with the sentinels you have thousands of humans in Stark-designed battle suits. That is the basis of the Cape Killers after all.

Mark_S

[Drdmx]

A bit of recognition if you will.

Kudos to you Mindcrime, for you maintaining your cool in a thread that I've for the most part lost track of since page 6. Even though you obviously disagree with alot of the posters on these boards, you are one of the few "Stark Supporters" out there who I havent seen fly off on a tangent, make over-drawn sarcastic (read:Angry) remarks to other posters, or simply talk out of your rear-end (Christmas mood, sue me. :o ). In any event... I salute you my friend!

[jonwes]

A bit of recognition if you will.

Kudos to you Mindcrime, for you maintaining your cool in a thread that I've for the most part lost track of since page 6. Even though you obviously disagree with alot of the posters on these boards, you are one of the few "Stark Supporters" out there who I havent seen fly off on a tangent, make over-drawn sarcastic (read:Angry) remarks to other posters, or simply talk out of your rear-end (Christmas mood, sue me. :o ). In any event... I salute you my friend!

I agree, especially since Anti-Stark people usually do all of those immediately.

[XPac]

He's arrogant and that will get him back in the end but the doomsday device and the weather satellites weren't handed over to anyone, especially not the gov't. He even had Dugan get parts of the doomsday machine contructed by different teams so they wouldn't know what they were working on.


The weather controlling machine and the doomsday devices were either destroyed or unfinished. I wouldn't be surprised if someone got a hold of these but then again I don't see why he wouldn't have countermeasures for people taking over his tech either given the Armor Wars story. All you need to negate SPIN tech are forcefields or magnetic fields if they're metal.

But time will tell if Iron Man will even have to face that.

I'm sure he does have countermeasures for people controlling his stuff (similiar to his counter measures for the Spidey suit, which again lasted all of 2 seconds). Then again, he's said he's had counter measures for people taking control of him. Yet it still happened right before Civil War, and right afterwards. And in his New Avengers CW solo story, some guy from the office disables him with a single word.

Stark just doesn't inspire confidence in me in this sort of thing.

[Eclips0]

i agree that tony should do that, but i dont think we have the whole story yet. i believe that hill is a skrull & it wouldnt surprise me if gyrich was too. hill the one that got tony relived of his command. i think the goverment got what they wanted out of tony, & now they are trying to get him out of the way.

I think Tony has no right to complain, his tactics are no more clean then Hill's or Gyrich's.

[Eclips0]

I'm sure he does have countermeasures for people controlling his stuff (similiar to his counter measures for the Spidey suit, which again lasted all of 2 seconds). Then again, he's said he's had counter measures for people taking control of him. Yet it still happened right before Civil War, and right afterwards. And in his New Avengers CW solo story, some guy from the office disables him with a single word.

Stark just doesn't inspire confidence in me in this sort of thing.

If anything it shows I'm right. He likes to control people and if necessary he forces that control on them.

[Arilou]

And perhaps I'm overthinking this... but consider that in the few months since CW we've seen a clone, mind controlling nanos, spin tech, a doomsday machine, and a weather controlling device. Basically, every cliched evil mad scientist tool in the book was whipped out by Stark in recent weeks for the government. I don't deny potential good in theory couldn't come out of government having all of this... but that What If clearly illustrated the downside to it too.
Today 08:49 AM


Actually that's what I like, sort of. We always see the bad guys build these marvellous thigns, yet the good guys makes do with well... Less stuff.

Narratively of course we know why, but when you think about it, it doesen't make any sense.

[Eclips0]

I think IGN needs to read the definition of a hero more closely next year.

[mindcrime]

A bit of recognition if you will.

Kudos to you Mindcrime, for you maintaining your cool in a thread that I've for the most part lost track of since page 6. Even though you obviously disagree with alot of the posters on these boards, you are one of the few "Stark Supporters" out there who I havent seen fly off on a tangent, make over-drawn sarcastic (read:Angry) remarks to other posters, or simply talk out of your rear-end (Christmas mood, sue me. :o ). In any event... I salute you my friend!



thanks. i think a big reason why im able to do that is that i understand cap's side of it. cap (is, was?) 1 of my favorites, just like iron man. i understand the reason for the SHRA, but that doesnt mean i support everything that tony has done. ive been able to see & both sides of it. they both made good & bad decisions. so why i do support tony, that doesnt mean i dont understand where you guys are coming from, cuz i do. not to mention the fact, why the hell would i get angry at you guys? you read comics just like i do. no, i save my anger for the people that truly deserve it: the writers.

[Eclips0]

The point is, Iron Man does not deserve the title of "hero" after what he did surrounding the SHRA.

[mindcrime]

The point is, Iron Man does not deserve the title of "hero" after what he did surrounding the SHRA.




but on the other hand, he has saved countless lives doing what he did. im not saying he didnt make mistakes, cuz he did. BUT the fact is, if he wouldnt have done these things, alot more people would be dead, including heroes.

[Eclips0]

Not "mistakes", crimes. And all the watcher showed him was alternate realities. Possibllities, there is no garuntee that the same would happen on the 616 world.

And that still does not justify his crimes.

[Will.S]

The point is, Iron Man does not deserve the title of "hero" after what he did surrounding the SHRA.
You probably don't think so but that doesn't make it fact.

[Eclips0]

No the multiple crimes he commited does.

[Will.S]

No the multiple crimes he commited does.
The fact that the character gets you so worked up and generates hundreds of posts with almost every topic about him here already tops the other reasons why he would be my Hero of the Year.

[LawGiver]

The fact that the character gets you so worked up and generates hundreds of posts with almost every topic about him here already tops the other reasons why he would be my Hero of the Year.

I completely agree.

I can like Iron Man and still be a staunch proponent for the Constitution and freedom. I can like Punisher and still not be for vigilantes. It is possible to enjoy a good story about characters that don't exactly represent your personal beliefs. Iron Man's stories have been some of the most interesting I've read since coming back to Marvel.

[Eclips0]

So your idea of a hero is someone who is considered a villain and hated by a large portion of the comics community?

[LawGiver]

So your idea of a hero is someone who is considered a villain and hated by a large portion of the comics community?


Isn't considering him a villian personal opinion?

By saying a large portion of the comics community hates him you mean a majority right? How do you come to that conclusion?

[Eclips0]

Read over the threads.

And yes I do consider a person guilty of multiple federal crimes to be a villain. Sorry but Lex Luthor or Doctor Doom do not exactly meet my definations of what a hero is.

[LawGiver]

Read over the threads.

And yes I do consider a person guilty of multiple federal crimes to be a villain. Sorry but Lex Luthor or Doctor Doom do not exactly meet my definations of what a hero is.

If he's guilty of federal crimes why is he working with the government and with SHIELD? Why doesn't someone arrest him?

Also why does it matter? He's an interesting character and it's a great read.

[Will.S]

I can like Iron Man and still be a staunch proponent for the Constitution and freedom. I can like Punisher and still not be for vigilantes. It is possible to enjoy a good story about characters that don't exactly represent your personal beliefs. Iron Man's stories have been some of the most interesting I've read since coming back to Marvel.
Well said.

So your idea of a hero is someone who is considered a villain and hated by a large portion of the comics community?
So your really assuming (and also effectively projecting your opinion onto other people) that a large portion of the comics community hate Iron Man and consider him a villain?

Seriously?

[jonwes]

I'd say the largest section of the comic book reading public probably think Iron Man is cooler than he's ever been. There's like 4 people on message boards who can't let it go and keep saying Iron Man is a tin hitler or some other hyberbolic nonsense. For the rest of us, we keep liking Iron Man and not caring much what the vocal minority thinks.

[Eclips0]

If he's guilty of federal crimes why is he working with the government and with SHIELD? Why doesn't someone arrest him?

Also why does it matter? He's an interesting character and it's a great read.

Because SHIELD and the MU Government are also corrupt and I was a huge fan of Iron Man before this and I do appreciate him as a villain now.

And it is far from a minority that hate him being called a hero.

[mikekerr3]

Because SHIELD and the MU Government are also corrupt and I was a huge fan of Iron Man before this and I do appreciate him as a villain now.

And it is far from a minority that hate him being called a hero.

I wish I new how to post a poll a simple one

Is Iron Man a villain?

1. Yes
2. No

that might establish what most of the fans here think.

[Arilou]

No. He's not a villain. He's a rather complex and flawed, and to some degree misguided hero.

But then, I consider Tyrion Lannister something of a hero.

[Iron_Stark]

How's Tony Stark a villain? What has he done to be considered a villain?

Has he taken over the MU with a Hitler type regime like most were predicting?

Has he captured and killed heroes like most were predicting?

Yeah, he's put people in jail, but I'm pretty sure cops would put most people in jail good or bad, friends and family, if they were seen going around town shooting thier unregistered guns like the wild west.

How many people has he killed in cold blood?

After reading Civil War What IF,

If he hadn't lead the SHRA, Gyrch would've and everything would've gone bad, with Project Wideawake, Spider-man, Sue Storm and Rhodey dying.

If Cap hadn't attacked Iron Man first, things would've turned out differently. But Cap was too damn stubborn to talk things through.

[XPac]

If Cap hadn't attacked Iron Man first, things would've turned out differently. But Cap was too damn stubborn to talk things through.

Course, Cap wouldn't have attacked him if Tony hasn't shot at Caps people first. It's a cause and effect kind of thing. If Tony had tried to talk to Cap, rather than trying to trap him, Cap would have talked (as we saw in Casualties of War). Hell, had Tony tried talking to Cap before all this even started I wonder how things would have been different.

As for why some might view Tony as a villain... I think the main reason was him using mind control to commit a terrorist bombing on US soil, and creating a staged aassasination attempt, to sway public opinion in his favor.

[Eclips0]

That and murdering Goliath, amoung other things. I enjoy him as a villain but he is no hero.

[Iron_Stark]

That and murdering Goliath, amoung other things. I enjoy him as a villain but he is no hero.

what issue did he murder Goliath in? I don't recall him telling Clor to kill him! Would a villain mourn and pay for funeral expenses of someone they "killed".

[Alan2099]

what issue did he murder Goliath in? I don't recall him telling Clor to kill him! Would a villain mourn and pay for funeral expenses of someone they "killed".

Magneto has.

[Iron_Stark]

Magneto has.

Who? a fellow mutant? Osmama Bin Magento would wipe out the entire human race except for mutants if given the chance. Stark wouldn't, he'd try to preserve more lives.

What people and haters don't get is Stark did all those questionable things to avoid a Project Wideawake type of senario happening.

[Mark_S]

Who? a fellow mutant? Osmama Bin Magento would wipe out the entire human race except for mutants if given the chance. Stark wouldn't, he'd try to preserve more lives.

What people and haters don't get is Stark did all those questionable things to avoid a Project Wideawake type of senario happening.

Yes, and that is pretty much the main defense of many of the TST (Tony Support Team) and the MDG (Marvel Defense Group), that Tony had to act or something worse would have happened.

Not everyone buys it.

Mark_S

[Eclips0]

what issue did he murder Goliath in? I don't recall him telling Clor to kill him! Would a villain mourn and pay for funeral expenses of someone they "killed".

Under the law he would be accountable since he is the one who stole the DNA to create the killer Clone.

[Iron_Stark]

Yes, and that is pretty much the main defense of many of the TST (Tony Support Team) and the MDG (Marvel Defense Group), that Tony had to act or something worse would have happened.

Not everyone buys it.

Mark_S

Ok, let me get this straight, Marvel makes Tony do questionable things that turn people against him, really quickly I might add, people that have never picked up a goddamn comic of his before Civil War, people that still think he's a drunk, turn on him.

Now Marvel is trying to reverse things and make Tony likable, yet these haters aren't having it, haters like you that think it's going to take years to reverse what Marvel has done, because apparently Tony has been a villain from the very start :rolleyes: .

[Eclips0]

Wow your really exxagerating.

I used to be a huge Iron Man fan till they turned him into a villain.

And as for redemption, all you have to do is have the character publically admit he was wrong and face charges for his actions, that would satisfy me.

[Iron_Stark]

Wow your really exxagerating.

I used to be a huge Iron Man fan till they turned him into a villain.

And as for redemption, all you have to do is have the character publically admit he was wrong and face charges for his actions, that would satisfy me.

My post isn't directed at you, it's for those posters on here drinking all that Hater-aide that've never picked up an Iron Man comic pre-Civil War, and that don't now jack sh** about his history.

I still don't think he's a villain and he'll be redeamed (even though I don't think he needs to be) by the end of the the Skrull stroy line and before his movie comes out.

[Eclips0]

If they want him redeemed they need to take the following steps.

1) End the SHRA.
2) Have him publically admit the things he did.
3) Have him face charges.

That would redeem the character.

[LawGiver]

If they want him redeemed they need to take the following steps.

1) End the SHRA.
2) Have him publically admit the things he did.
3) Have him face charges.

That would redeem the character.

He isn't going to face chargers for something that is legal at the time. That's ridiculous.

[Eclips0]

If you take the time to read over the thread you'lls ee allto fo what he did was far from legal. And allot of it was also in support of an unjust and unconstitutional law.

You guys say you want him redeemed, I'm just telling you what will get the job done.

[LawGiver]

If you take the time to read over the thread you'lls ee allto fo what he did was far from legal. And allot of it was also in support of an unjust and unconstitutional law.

You guys say you want him redeemed, I'm just telling you what will get the job done.

Yea I've read over the thread, it's kinda made my head hurt. He doesn't need redemption.

[Eclips0]

Well not everyone's a fanboy and can ignore the things he's done. If you guys don't think he needs redemption then thats fine for you, but don't expect a large number of people to like him agian until it happens.

[Mark_S]

Ok, let me get this straight, Marvel makes Tony do questionable things that turn people against him, really quickly I might add, people that have never picked up a goddamn comic of his before Civil War, people that still think he's a drunk, turn on him.

Now Marvel is trying to reverse things and make Tony likable, yet these haters aren't having it, haters like you that think it's going to take years to reverse what Marvel has done, because apparently Tony has been a villain from the very start :rolleyes: .

Well I've been reading IM since 74, so I thought I knew the character. But my interpretation was not the same as the marvel writers. You can read back on all of the threads to get a run down of what he has done, what he has been thought to do, what the anger is caused by, what the support is based on and so on.
And I don't think marvel is making him likeable, I think marvel is making him less of a touch stone for hate, or rather that they are trying but the effort is un-even. After all if you have Tony being benevolent in Spiderman and then have him as a martinet in Thor you are bound to have conflicting views of the character.

And I do think that realistically it should be years before any of either side even talk to one another. You don't have friends turn against friends, have friends beat each other senseless and have one side toss the others into a prison with no hope of ever getting out and not have bad feelings arise. This is how marvel wanted it. They wrote cw to divide and anger. Now they are stuck with it.

Mark_S

[Mark_S]

Yea I've read over the thread, it's kinda made my head hurt. He doesn't need redemption.

If you were pro-sra he did nothing wrong. If you were anti-sra he did nothing right. Welcome to the world marvel wanted.

Mark_S

[LawGiver]

Well not everyone's a fanboy and can ignore the things he's done. If you guys don't think he needs redemption then thats fine for you, but don't expect a large number of people to like him agian until it happens.

Well I'm not a fanboy by any means, I just don't get too invested in something that's not real and has no impact on if I can get outta bed in the morning and enjoy my day. This makes Iron Man interesting, all he had going for him before this was he was a drunk. He's a conflicted hero, it's great reading.

[Eclips0]

Then you enjoy it yourself, but other people don't accept the things he's done.

[Drdmx]

ZOMG ! Look at the poll! Stark Haters are OVERWHELMING!

[Tobias Drake]

ZOMG ! Look at the poll! Stark Haters are OVERWHELMING!

It's the Skrulls! They're trying to lure you into a false sense of security! Nobody but Skrulls would ever vote in Stark's favor! :eek:

[XPac]

He isn't going to face chargers for something that is legal at the time. That's ridiculous.

I'm sure that's what Nazi war criminals tried using in their defense after WW2. For all the good it did them.

But it's not even accurate to say everything he did was legal. Hiring a supervillain to attack Congress is not legal. Mind controlling the Green Goblin to commit a terrorist bombing on US soil and staging an assasination attempt on an Atlantean Ambassador is not legal.

[Eclips0]

ZOMG ! Look at the poll! Stark Haters are OVERWHELMING!

Actually pre-CW Iron Man was my FAVE Avenger.

When he was a hero he was one of the best, he's actually not bad as a villain now.

But he is not a hero anymore.

[Iron_Stark]

Actually pre-CW Iron Man was my FAVE Avenger.

When he was a hero he was one of the best, he's actually not bad as a villain now.

But he is not a hero anymore.

True fans wouldn't abandon thier favorite Avenger on ONE badly written, biased storyline.

Especially when a blockbuster movie is just around the corner in a few months

[Eclips0]

As I said if they redeem the character then I would be happy to, as it is I morally object to what this character stands for.

[mattbib]

True fans wouldn't abandon thier favorite Avenger on ONE badly written, biased storyline.I do not want to see any more posts questioning fans' "loyalty". One could argue that a "true fan" WOULD drop their favorite Avengers if they feel the characterization has been irreparably damaged. Knock it off. Keep the discussion to the comics and the characters, not other posters.

[mikekerr3]

True fans wouldn't abandon thier favorite Avenger on ONE badly written, biased storyline.

Especially when a blockbuster movie is just around the corn