What If Civil War *Spoilers*

[Siddon]

This has to be the best What If in a long time, its certainly the wordiest.

The story is book ended with Tony in the cemetary with a Watcher telling him about the possible futures.

Part one has Tony dieing before Stamford and Steve taking control of all the heros against the government. Gyrich becomes leader of sheild, and first uses Sentinals (that win but kill), then Sentinal squad ONES (with Rhodes as his friend). The heros beat the ONES but Cap makes them go underground. The ONES are no match for the villians (BEETLE wins a fight!). Gyrich unleashed an army of clones that take over the world and kill the remaining heros. Cap and Rhodes have one final confrontation when Gyrich shows up and a Thor clone kills Cap, and Maria Hill blows Rhodes brains away. The end result is World peace and Gyrich as President of the United States.

Part two has Cap not fighting Tony, they build to battle but Cap doesn't blast Tony in the first fight. Clor comes down and is beaten by everyone. They discuss the reg and decide that Cap with be incharge of the info instead government organization. The world is a better place and the Avengers go on as normal.

The conclusion has Tony realizing that this is all Cap's fault and it took very little to make the world a better place.

Review - I would say part 1 is better then the actual event. Gyrich rules, kill the heros, kill the villians, bring World Peace and bang Maria Hill.... okay I made the last part up.

[XPac]

Hmmm... I haven't read the story yet, but if it's like the WWH What If, I wonder if the story won't be less satisfying because they're telling multiple stories in a single book. Having maybe 10 pages really hinders's ones ability to really tell a good story.

Still, it's interesting to see the potential other outcomes (though I tend to take What If's with a grain of salt). Judging from the previews, you can get a totally different outcome if Tony reworded his sentences a tiny tiny little bit. Weird.

[TotalWorldDomination]

Hmmm... I haven't read the story yet, but if it's like the WWH What If, I wonder if the story won't be less satisfying because they're telling multiple stories in a single book. Having maybe 10 pages really hinders's ones ability to really tell a good story.

Still, it's interesting to see the potential other outcomes (though I tend to take What If's with a grain of salt). Judging from the previews, you can get a totally different outcome if Tony reworded his sentences a tiny tiny little bit. Weird.

yeah it was weird, and even though it realy did end up coming down on my prefered side of the argument, it felt rushed and forced in parts. I'd prefered if each of these ideas had room to percolate rather then being crammed together in this book. Not to mention, I couldn't tell what the "what if" being asked was for either story.

The first seems to be "What if Extremis killed tony stark", not my first choice for a Civil War What If question.

The second seems to be "what if both sides worked together to come to another compromise because tony gave an extra line of diolouge and thor went even crazier."

Could have been much much better.

[Decepticons_Rule]

Why is Marvel making Cap look so bad? The whole editing staff needs to be fired.

[Dr. Chaos]

The conclusion has Tony realizing that this is all Cap's fault
The whole moral of that story was if Tony had just been honest, things could have been different and the SHRA could have worked for everyone.

The conclusion actually has Tony lamenting the fact that even though what Tony might have done was the right thing, he ****ed up the results.

Captain America could have saved the SHRA from becoming what it is today if Tony didn't keep pushing his hand.

Having maybe 10 pages really hinders's ones ability to really tell a good story.
Didn't feel like ten pages, I believe both stories were more around twenty, weren't they?

I find the Watcher's line about Gyrich not being evil quite funny, I bet Hitler was just a futurist doing whats best for his country by trying to wipe out a race too wasn't he?

Despite the fact that alot of the first story gives me a headache just thinking about it, I enjoyed this immensely.

[jonwes]

Making Cap look bad? They didn't say anything in the book that contradicted the series. Bascially, Cap went off half-cocked through all of Civil War, even when Tony offered his hand in friendship (yeah, yeah I know that Tony took down Cloak and a few others first but this was a purely strategic move-to prevent Cap from transporting out without listening-that Cap should have respected.)

That being said, I think they still tried to lay the blame on Tony in the second story, implying that if he'd just said a few more words to Cap he could have turned the tide. Of course, it's reasonable to say that this doesn't make it Tony's fault really (as it was still in Cap's court to not HIT Tony every time Tony tried to talk to him) but Tony doesn't see it that way.

I liked the second story better than the first. The art was better and I thought the story made more sense. I thought Cap donning the Red, White and Blue Iron Man armor in the first story was a bit silly and didn't have a good reason.

But overall I liked the book as a whole. They are very much in the style of old What If's about crossovers. I remember reading the What If about Atlantis Attacks as a kid over and over because it was so fun. With the big crossovers, there isn't time to delve too deeply into any one thing, but I thought this issue did a good job of balancing it out.

[XPac]

In regards to the second story, I think the story would have made more sense if they had Tony Stark talking to Cap at the very Stark of CW rather than during the fight in issue 3. Instead they make this HUGE difference by Stark throwing in an extra sentence about wanting Caps help.

And for the first story, I think they should have focused more on the question of what would have happened if Cap has won Civil War. It wouldn't have been a HUGE change... they can still have Gyrich and Hill to psycho. But the outcome would have felt more relavent.

[XPac]

Making Cap look bad? They didn't say anything in the book that contradicted the series. Bascially, Cap went off half-cocked through all of Civil War, even when Tony offered his hand in friendship (yeah, yeah I know that Tony took down Cloak and a few others first but this was a purely strategic move-to prevent Cap from transporting out without listening-that Cap should have respected.)

That being said, I think they still tried to lay the blame on Tony in the second story, implying that if he'd just said a few more words to Cap he could have turned the tide. Of course, it's reasonable to say that this doesn't make it Tony's fault really (as it was still in Cap's court to not HIT Tony every time Tony tried to talk to him) but Tony doesn't see it that way.



The other issue you have consider though is that Tony and Steve talked face to face on 2 other occasions after the fight in CW4. On those occasions, Cap and Tony actually talked and we still didn't get this outcome either.

That's kind of an element the book sort of glosses over. Cap refusing to talk to Tony in this one instance shouldn't necessarily change that much since he willingly did talk to Tony later, but with no real change in things.

[Dr. Chaos]

Seriously, the comparisons you could make to Gyrich and Hitler in the first story are downright creepy.

He even has his own lil Eva Braun.

[jonwes]

The other issue you have consider though is that Tony and Steve talked face to face on 2 other occasions after the fight in CW4. On those occasions, Cap and Tony actually talked and we still didn't get this outcome either.

That's kind of an element the book sort of glosses over. Cap refusing to talk to Tony in this one instance shouldn't necessarily change that much since he willingly did talk to Tony later, but with no real change in things.

Weren't those instances later, though, after they were more deeply entrenched in their feelings (and after Bill Foster died) and therefore Cap was less likely to listen?

[TotalWorldDomination]

The other issue you have consider though is that Tony and Steve talked face to face on 2 other occasions after the fight in CW4. On those occasions, Cap and Tony actually talked and we still didn't get this outcome either.

That's kind of an element the book sort of glosses over. Cap refusing to talk to Tony in this one instance shouldn't necessarily change that much since he willingly did talk to Tony later, but with no real change in things.

This is one of the huge problems I had with the book. The first change was significant- What if Tony died before the Civil War started. The second story's change actually hurt it's case by making it seem like one extra sentience would have made all the difference in the world- and they give tony the blame for not saying it. I would have preferred if it had been "What if cap had listened to tony's proposal in CW3" rather then "What if Tony said an extra line with information that cap probably already knew".

I feel like this book was a wasted opportunity to realy do some interesting thigns with the CW timeline. The first one could have been much better (if it had been given the space to be) and the second one needed a little tweeking. I hope they do another What if... Civil War down the line so we can see some more interesting options (like an actual "What if Cap's side won" or "What if Cap was Pro-Reg and Tony Stark Was Anti-Reg")

And the art on the first half was GOD awful. really unfortunate. Bothered the Bejesus out of me. I don't like that overly cartoony stuff to begin with, but this was just the bottom of the barrel bad art. The faces looked like they were made from stretched silly putty. Whoever did the art draws a good Sentinel and that's about it.

[XPac]

Weren't those instances later, though, after they were more deeply entrenched in their feelings (and after Bill Foster died) and therefore Cap was less likely to listen?

Cap seemed a lot more reasonable in Casualties of War than in their confrontation in issue 3 to be honest. Of course, in large part that was because of the situation (ie he wasn't fooled into a trap with his people shot at). Cap for the most part sat and listened.

From what the What If implied, I suppose the biggest difference is Tony asking Cap for help (did he do that in Casualties... I don't remember).

Either way, I think the more reasonable way to write this WHat If would have been if it took place right at the start of Civil War. The difference between what happened in this issue in regards to what Tony said, and what he said in the original was too minor in my opinion to warrent such a drastic difference.

[bulbasteve]

From what the What If implied, I suppose the biggest difference is Tony asking Cap for help (did he do that in Casualties... I don't remember).

Either way, I think the more reasonable way to write this WHat If would have been if it took place right at the start of Civil War. The difference between what happened in this issue in regards to what Tony said, and what he said in the original was too minor in my opinion to warrent such a drastic difference.

Yeah he asked before their big fight in that issue.

[CaptainCanada]

I like the new format for What If?s, used in both this and the "Planet Hulk" one: we get the standard dystopic alternate reality, and a utopic scenario as well.

The art in the first story was sub-par, but the second story was pretty good (Talibao's women are a bit bimbo-ish, but there are no significant female characters in that story, so it doesn't really affect the substance of it), and the framing segment was beautiful (I'm really looking forward to his issues of Thor).

I liked all the little callbacks to different famous moments in CW, such as the new, macabre unmasking of Spider-Man.

The whole package is centred on Iron Man, which makes sense, since he's pretty much the main character in the MU these days; it both shows that he was right that something had to be done, and shows that he missed a chance to have things turn out better than they did.

[Zacharius]

Gyrich unleashed an army of clones that take over the world and kill the remaining heros.

Dumb plot device then.

Basically same as in v2 19: What If Vision Conquered the World?(dystopia-version) where Mad Thinker decides that if one Awesome Adaptoid is good, 100 000 Adaptoids is better.

Giving one side resources they did not have in mainstream reality does not make a good story.

[XPac]

Dumb plot device then.

Basically same as in v2 19: What If Vision Conquered the World?(dystopia-version) where Mad Thinker decides that if one Awesome Adaptoid is good, 100 000 Adaptoids is better.

Giving one side resources they did not have in mainstream reality does not make a good story.

Well, that's the thing about What If's... especially in these 2 story format ones. At least ONE story involves someone destroying the world, or taking it over, or SOMETHING to that effect.

It's pretty much always takes more than a little exaggeration... but I suppose if you're going to do a What IF that doesn't count, might as well make it worse case scenario. Still, because of the exaggerated nature it's not something you can ever really take seriously.

[XPac]

I like the new format for What If?s, used in both this and the "Planet Hulk" one: we get the standard dystopic alternate reality, and a utopic scenario as well.



I think the downside to that formula though is that the stories come off very short.

I wish these were double sized or something. Or that they were 2 parters.

[Shyft]

Yeah he asked before their big fight in that issue.

Tony didnt suggest the compromise. he just asked Cap to give up and work with the SHRA as it currently was.

[Shyft]

Making Cap look bad? They didn't say anything in the book that contradicted the series. Bascially, Cap went off half-cocked through all of Civil War, even when Tony offered his hand in friendship (yeah, yeah I know that Tony took down Cloak and a few others first but this was a purely strategic move-to prevent Cap from transporting out without listening-that Cap should have respected.)



Why does everyone bring this up like Cap did something really outrageous? Say he had listened to Tony, and still didnt like the idea. Does anyone really believe Cap would have been allowed to walk away with all his buddies? All this "Tony just wanted to talk" is bs, Tony wanted to talk and if talking didnt work, fight. So Cap listening wouldnt have made an ounce of difference.

[bulbasteve]

Tony didnt suggest the compromise. he just asked Cap to give up and work with the SHRA as it currently was.

Pac was talking about the single line that made him put down his shocky doohicky and hence change the whole war, which was pretty much the same line as in the special. Cause that line in What-If wasn't about compromise either.

[XPac]

Tony didnt suggest the compromise. he just asked Cap to give up and work with the SHRA as it currently was.

Well, I can see why that wouldn't have the same effect as asking Cap for help.

Not that I comletely buy that Tony doing that would radically change as much as it did (except maybe at the very very start), but I do nonetheless think Stark would really work on selling this to his friends a little better.

I have a hard time believing a guy as smart as Stark actually believed for a second that his speech to Cap or Thor would actually work.

[Dr. Chaos]

It's a shame we didn't get to see Thor come back and dismantle Gyrich and his Thunderstrike army with extreme godlike prejudice.

(Which would make a hell of a What If on it's own)

Seriously, if he was that pissed at Iron Man, imagine just what he would do to Gyrich.

[CMBMOOL]

What I see this issue as this: Tony was right ot get involved in the War as the world would have been in much worse shape if he didn't. :(

However, if Tony was Honest from the beginning about his actions, then the events in Civil War would have ended in a more better light. :D

[XPac]

It's a shame we didn't get to see Thor come back and dismantle Gyrich and his Thunderstrike army with extreme godlike prejudice.

(Which would make a hell of a What If on it's own)

Seriously, if he was that pissed at Iron Man, imagine just what he would do to Gyrich.

That's the thing about the first story... it cuts off at the fun part.

There will be forces out there which won't be too happy with the heroes being killed... like Thor.

Worse, there will be forces out there THRILLED about it because mankind is a lot more vulnerable now. Even if Gyrich has a lot of raw power in Sentinals and Clones, raw power isn't always enough.

[DaeJi]

So... Tony was right... kinda... hmmm...

[XPac]

So... Tony was right... kinda... hmmm...

Well, if we take a What If seriously, he was definately right about the government being insanely evil and stupid. If that's an accurate reflection of Gyrich and Hill (as oppossed to a ridulously exaggerated one we sometimes seein these thigns), then we definatley have a lot to watch out for from these two.

[DaeJi]

Well, if we take a What If seriously, he was definately right about the government being insanely evil and stupid. If that's an accurate reflection of Gyrich and Hill (as oppossed to a ridulously exaggerated one we sometimes seein these thigns), then we definatley have a lot to watch out for from these two.

Hey, if people can use Kingdom Come as a basis for a Captain Marvel/Superman face-off, then I can use a What If? as a basis for determining how correct Tony was about Civil War.

[Dr. Chaos]

Well, if we take a What If seriously, he was definately right about the government being insanely evil and stupid. If that's an accurate reflection of Gyrich and Hill (as oppossed to a ridulously exaggerated one we sometimes seein these thigns), then we definatley have a lot to watch out for from these two.
I would agree.

If this is supposed to be an accurate depiction of Gyrich, Hill and the Marvel Universe US government, thats not somebody I want Tony protecting us with, it's somebody I want him to be protected from (if that makes any sense) and working to stop.

Thats kind of where the whole government controlled hero concept falls for me here, all this really proves to me is that the US government in this world needs to be stopped, not that bending to their will is the right thing to do.

All Marvel keeps doing is showing that they can be just as dangerous as any supervillian on the market with their misguided insecurities.

[XPac]

Hey, if people can use Kingdom Come as a basis for a Captain Marvel/Superman face-off, then I can use a What If? as a basis for determining how correct Tony was about Civil War.

Well, maybe Tony will end up being right about the US government being that evil. Time will tell.

If he does end up right, then I'll definately be rooting for the Skrulls next year.

[DaeJi]

I would agree.

If this is supposed to be an accurate depiction of Gyrich, Hill and the Marvel Universe US government, thats not somebody I want Tony protecting us with, it's somebody I want him to be protected from (if that makes any sense) and working to stop.

Tony is actually working to protect people from the government. He's doing it from the inside though.

[XPac]

Tony is actually working to protect people from the government. He's doing it from the inside though.

Yeah, but IF they're this bad then I'm starting to think Tony and Cap were both wrong. For the good of mankind and the universe, we should probably overthrow the bastards. It's not something I say lightly either... the hero community is necessary for the survival of mankind and arguably the universe itself. Right now, they're the biggest threat to that vital resource.

In Iron Man right now, Tony to a degree is being removed from power (though I'm sure that will be temporary). But Gyrich and Hill are still running around. If they're THAT evil, then the problem is still out there.

[Drdmx]

What I see this issue as this: Tony was right ot get involved in the War as the world would have been in much worse shape if he didn't. :(

However, if Tony was Honest from the beginning about his actions, then the events in Civil War would have ended in a more better light. :D

Pretty much what alot of people are saying.

[mikekerr3]

Tony is actually working to protect people from the government. He's doing it from the inside though.

Just about everything he does with the initiative gives the government more power. What happens to the LIST of identities when the Government demands it or Stark is killed?

To use the military vernacular he's putting a band-aid on a sucking chest wound.

[sherlockbones]

I find the Watcher's line about Gyrich not being evil quite funny, I bet Hitler was just a futurist doing whats best for his country by trying to wipe out a race too wasn't he?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Popper
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarian


While originally referring to an 'all-embracing, total state,' the label has been applied to a wide variety of regimes and orders of rule in a critical sense. Isabel Paterson, in The God of the Machine (1943) used the term in connection with the collectivist societies of Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. Karl Popper, in The Open Society and Its Enemies (1945) and The Poverty of Historicism (1961) developed an influential critique of totalitarianism: in both works, he contrasted the "open society" of liberal democracy with totalitarianism, and argued that the latter is grounded in the belief that history moves toward an immutable future, in accord with knowable laws.

:eek:

[mikekerr3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Popper
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarian


While originally referring to an 'all-embracing, total state,' the label has been applied to a wide variety of regimes and orders of rule in a critical sense. Isabel Paterson, in The God of the Machine (1943) used the term in connection with the collectivist societies of Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. Karl Popper, in The Open Society and Its Enemies (1945) and The Poverty of Historicism (1961) developed an influential critique of totalitarianism: in both works, he contrasted the "open society" of liberal democracy with totalitarianism, and argued that the latter is grounded in the belief that history moves toward an immutable future, in accord with knowable laws.

:eek:

Sweet and I thought thinking that you could predict infinitr variables was just ingmorance of mathmatics. Its also a characteristic of totalitarianism.

[jackolover]

It was marvelous how this book was slotted into Civil War as an actual occurance, between Arlington and the Namor burial in the sea, of Cap. That I didn't expect

The second story was just a heaven story for Tony. What Tony would have liked to happen, and that brought him joy. It was almost like the Watcher came to give Tony a memory present. To stroke Tonys soul, with a preferable future to the one he got. It was almost a dream sequence.

The first option, starting with Tonys death, seemed a strange way of telling a story. Why would the Watcher tell Tony, in this situation? -

'You die, for this to happen, and what happens is not pretty, so you aren't around to see it. When you lived, you had the chance to do the thing that avoided this, but there was a price. For you to live, he had to die. I showed you what it would be like if you had made another decision, in one point in time, and both you and Cap lived. Now look what happens when you aren't there, and Cap is alone to face the registration'.

I always thought Project Wideawake would be a sneak attack by the Sentinels. I knew the Sentinels were already made and ready, and just needed the signal. What I didn't expect was that Maria Hill would be replaced as head of Shield. I didn't think that was neccesary. What it does show, is how highly Gyrich is held by the government, that the president would make the move to make Gyrich head of Shield. I never thought Gyrich would get the top job of overseeing the cleaning out of metas from the Marvel Universe. I never saw that Maria Hill would shoot a bullet through the head of Rhodes, (and I see this as Hill sideing with her own kind, instead of with Rhodes' negotiation idea, with metas), and precipitate the genocide of the superhuman species.

I think it was a well constructed story, with elements of destruction and killing that would be possible, if Cap were the leader of superhumans and running the response.

A couple of things I couldn't come at :-

Reed Richards and Hank Pym's characters were much weaker than I imagined in this situation. If Tony died before Stamford, there would have been no notification of the Illuminati of an impending crisis with the normals, and Reed and Henry would have been depressed that Tony wouldn't be there to run things, with Tonys ideas and expertise. But I still see Reed as being much stronger than what he is portrayed here.

Reed, after all, is the leader of the FF and a hardened fighter. I would have expected Reed to take over the mantle of Pro-Reg leader, and begin a thrust to oppose Caps strategy. That Sue was prodding Reed into forgoing this direction, may have made Reed reluctant to proceed.

I was shocked by the deaths of the first wave of Sentinel attacks, and the time bomb certainly surprised me as a smart tactic, which I thought was a good idea. The army of Thor clones would have had to have taken a few years before the clones would be mature enough to be put to use. But I even doubt that Tonys clone of Thor idea would see the light of day without Tony to drive it, anyway.

But lets say the Thor clones did make it off the drawing board, and into the field. Then the death of the heros and the villians would have left a vacant meta landscape in society, and the mole man and Namor would have been reluctant to show their face on the surface anymore for fear of being annihillated by the Clors. That leaves Black Bolt as the only resistance that could conveivably destroy the Thor clones.

But this whole thing drives on the back of Sentry not appearing to do any kind of damage to the governments attacks. It probably means that Sentry will drop into the vacuum, left by the heros, and Paul Jenkins alternate reality story, about the Sentry, will take effect. That means the Hulk is Sentrys friend. This because, as Tony dies, the Illuminati do not decide to send the Hulk to Sakaar, and thus, leave the Hulk alone in Canada.

Edit : At no time did Iron Man get defeated, so that little statement was misleading. Iron Man won in the second story.

What this book doesn't show is the victory of the Initiative, like has been happening ever since the end of Civil War, when Tony beat Cap, Tony beat the Hulk, the Initiative beat the Inhumans, and the initiative smashed Atlantis. That has been the strong theme of the books, after the real result of the Civil War. So I wonder. Are the government replacing the Initiative strength and victories, with Thor Clone victories? And, if the Skrull invasion happened after the Thor Clones wiped out the metas, would the Skrulls have taken over the earth? Would Greg Paks Sakaar have seen the light of day, as an invasion of earth by the Warbound, led by the Old Strong?

[dabig2]

The only thing that this book confirmed for me is that Tony and Reed have applied a band-aid to a gunshot wound.

Like Xpac and others have said, they just delayed the inevitable. The government is so corrupt and evil, that bowing to their wishes and all this "yes, masta" and "it won't happen again masta sir" will not solve anything in the long run unless something truly drastic happens.

They'll be making Cap was right T-shirts before 2009.

[StoneGold]

The only thing that this book confirmed for me is that Tony and Reed have applied a band-aid to a gunshot wound.

But is that not better than putting another bullet into the body? Because the alternative was Armageddon.

[jackolover]

The whole moral of that story was if Tony had just been honest, things could have been different and the SHRA could have worked for everyone.

The conclusion actually has Tony lamenting the fact that even though what Tony might have done was the right thing, he ****ed up the results.

Captain America could have saved the SHRA from becoming what it is today if Tony didn't keep pushing his hand.


It didn't feel like that to me. I couln't see Tony making that extra line before Caps devive shut him down. That seemed contrived and more a device for the Watcher to help Tonys fantasy good ending take place. I agree, Tony lamented that the good ending COULD have happened, but I think that was just a plant by the Watcher.

There was that moment of depression, as Cap sat with this poor hand-dog expression on his face, but that, too, didn't ring true of Cap. Cap was made of more sterner stuff. Maybe the many deaths after the first Sentinel raid made Cap lament his stance, I don't know.

It also makes Wondermans statement, in MA #6, that he was as strong as Sentry, seem lame, considering he was defeated by a 3rd strength Thor clone.

The actual way Tony handled Civil War, was quite different from the two alternatives given in this What If?, and puts the real event into a better context. The way the CW was spread over so many crossover books sort of confused the contuity of the story, somewhat, and having an alternative story run in one go, makes a lot of Tonys decisions clearer. This What If? should have been published after Fallen Son, I think. It would have focussed a lot of discussion on the how and why of Tony Stark.



In regards to the second story, I think the story would have made more sense if they had Tony Stark talking to Cap at the very Stark of CW rather than during the fight in issue 3. Instead they make this HUGE difference by Stark throwing in an extra sentence about wanting Caps help.

That's what we would have liked to see, but even in this book, Tony still decided it was better to statrt the war first, before discussing any negotiations.




And for the first story, I think they should have focused more on the question of what would have happened if Cap has won Civil War. It wouldn't have been a HUGE change... they can still have Gyrich and Hill to psycho. But the outcome would have felt more relavent.

So that would entail Caps side defeating the normals and taking over the government. Then, out of the back of the White House comes a mob of Thors and wipes out Caps side? Six of one, and half a dozen of the other.

I would have liked to see Cap defeat the normals, and no surprise Clors arrive to save the day. That way, the metas could negotiate a truce from a position of strength, the opposite of what the SHRA did to the metas.

It was nice how the congressional commitee spoke down to Cap after Stamford, and Cap walked out on them, talking down to the commitee. Here we have two divergent points of view, and powerful men treating Steve Rogers like Spiderman and Peter, when Peter accompanied Tony to these hearings.



If that's an accurate reflection of Gyrich and Hill ...then we definatley have a lot to watch out for from these two.

I was also impressed at ths interpretation of Gyrich and Hill. Right now, they are embedded loose cannons, ready to strike, if the sitation requires it. And it also makes Hills actions with Cap in CW #1 more understandable. But it sure paints a picture of a couple of strong, agents, positioned to be activated at any time.

I would agree.

All Marvel keeps doing is showing that they can be just as dangerous as any supervillian on the market with their misguided insecurities.

I am always aware of what savagery the human animal is capable of, so I am not blaming Marvel for this depiction of it. I think, if mankind was ever overthrown by another species, and humans escaped and went underground, it is my opinion that we would turn into cyborgs or Terminators. Not so much a combination of Tech and biology. Just the singleminded savagery of the those kinds of creatures. I don't think there is any more dangerous kind of animal than the human one, and Marvel putting the normals in a situation, like being overthrown by metas, would trigger that transformation, I have no doubt in my mind.



In Iron Man right now, Tony to a degree is being removed from power (though I'm sure that will be temporary). But Gyrich and Hill are still running around. If they're THAT evil, then the problem is still out there.

I think the governments use of Gyrich and Hill is on a hair trigger. I think the use of the word 'Evil' is an oversimplification of the governments ability and intentions. I think mankind is in a state of suppression right now, cusshioned by social structures and laws holding society together. If those structures are ever threatened, and there is a potential of mankind to degenerate into a state of utter chaos, the kind of "evil' that would break out is inconcievable. What we saw in the first What If? story was just a taste of what can happen, and I don't think the Marvel writers have even started to tap that potential, yet.

[Zacharius]

Wasn´t it rather contrived ?

I mean Avengers and FF can fight successfully Kree and Skrulls.

Quesada simply did not want a story with US government overthrown. :(

[jackolover]

Wasn´t it rather contrived ?

I mean Avengers and FF can fight successfully Kree and Skrulls.

Quesada simply did not want a story with US government overthrown. :(

The government brains trust did state the heroes would only fight at 35% their actual strength. You could say that was contrived, too, but I tend to agree the heroes would not use lethal force against the government Sentinels, for fear of mortalities. And that WOULD give the government the edge.

[jackolover]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Popper
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarian


While originally referring to an 'all-embracing, total state,' the label has been applied to a wide variety of regimes and orders of rule in a critical sense. Isabel Paterson, in The God of the Machine (1943) used the term in connection with the collectivist societies of Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. Karl Popper, in The Open Society and Its Enemies (1945) and The Poverty of Historicism (1961) developed an influential critique of totalitarianism: in both works, he contrasted the "open society" of liberal democracy with totalitarianism, and argued that the latter is grounded in the belief that history moves toward an immutable future, in accord with knowable laws.

:eek:

Is Totalitarianism, Democracy or Communism? There are aspects of T in both of them. Sometimes the good for all, over-rides the good for the few. It's just a matter of balance. Sometimes it looks like those in power are misusing their power, when they apply a law that singles out a minority. And it is the philosophy of the race that points to the law, rather than the 'ultruistic good', that the powerful profess as their justification.

In the governments case, in Civil War, they had the right, or the responsibility, to come up with a safeguard for their race, in the face of the mounting violence of metas. So they singled out a broad spectrum of offenders, that the government identified as threats, (yet only numbered a few hundred, in all), and collectively, put an encomberance on their activities.

But the belief that Totalitarianism is 'grounded in the belief that history moves toward an immutable future, in accord with knowable laws', makes it sound like a predestiny, which presupposes that the future is certain, and cannot be changed, and only includes the normal human vision. The metas don't enter into that vision?

[XPac]

But is that not better than putting another bullet into the body? Because the alternative was Armageddon.

Not necessarily. What we saw was only one of 2 alternatives, Caps way and Tony's way. Go along with the registration, or continue on with that status quo. There's the other extreme of going the Gruenwald Squadron Supreme route (which would have been bad, but preferable to the entire hero community being decimated since it's vital to the continued existance of mankind and arguably the universe itself), and everything in between.

[Alpow]

The first story is extremely shaky, where is Thor?,

Why doesn't Dr Strange wave it all away (sitting out a squabble, then regretting in later, is rather different that watching your friends getting murdered by robots and clones)?

How did Cap find out about the SHRA the first time (when in the regular continuity only Tony found out)?

Why did Reed go along with things, shouldn't his formula have caused him to realise what would be the end result?

Why did Cap quit fighting (I can't believe he wasn't aware he killed people just fighting for their country in WW2)?

How did Gyrich get Thor's DNA which had been in Stark's personal possession?

How did he build his clone army without the three minds behind the regular continuity Clor?

Then there is the stuff trimmed for time (Black Bolt's attack on the Pentagon with no MA to repulse him, the rogue Atlantean terror attack etc).

On top of all that we don't even get to find out whether Tony made the right choice, we saw a result if he was absent not the result had he fought on Cap's side (or even led the heroes against the government).

The second story doesn't have quite the problems of the first but the initial conceit (such a small change having the desired result) was rather a large one and the governments response seems a little dodgy as well, both of these problems could have been remedied if they had put Tony and Cap charting their own course before the outbreak of hostilities(have them both turn up at the meeting for some reason and go from there).

[ANewHope]

Although What if Annihilation was down-right awesome, and much better than What if Civil War, it was still a good read.

For everyone who misses the interaction between Iron man and Captain America, this is a must read.:cool:

[Tobias Drake]

This issue was...iffy to me. There were two stories, one of which was "If Tony Stark hadn't done what he did, bad things would happen and everyone would die" while the second was "If Cap had listened and worked with Tony, we would all live in a magical faerie land of peace and happiness". Contrasted the way they are, it creates this idea that the whole purpose was to retroactively justify Civil War.

The first story is extremely shaky, where is Thor?,

Thor didn't return until well after the Civil War was over. Donald Blake obtained the hammer before it struck, but he didn't awaken Thor until even the aftermath had faded into the distance and the Initiative had become the standard.

[Alpow]

This issue was...iffy to me. There were two stories, one of which was "If Tony Stark hadn't done what he did, bad things would happen and everyone would die" while the second was "If Cap had listened and worked with Tony, we would all live in a magical faerie land of peace and happiness". Contrasted the way they are, it creates this idea that the whole purpose was to retroactively justify Civil War.

That has been the direction from civil war 7 onwards.

Tony gets a little blame for not being honest and Cap gets a heap of blame for being an ineffectual leader and all round idiot, sad that he went out in such a state.

Thor didn't return until well after the Civil War was over. Donald Blake obtained the hammer before it struck, but he didn't awaken Thor until even the aftermath had faded into the distance and the Initiative had become the standard.

I am aware, however the time line here seem rather more stretched (time for the One Vs Cap war, One Vs Villains, construction of clone army and then Clone Army Vs Cap), unless Blake decided to delay until the world has gone completely down the tubes for some reason then Thor should have easily had time to be up and about.

[StoneGold]

Not necessarily. What we saw was only one of 2 alternatives, Caps way and Tony's way. Go along with the registration, or continue on with that status quo. There's the other extreme of going the Gruenwald Squadron Supreme route (which would have been bad, but preferable to the entire hero community being decimated since it's vital to the continued existance of mankind and arguably the universe itself), and everything in between.

That was one of the Armageddon routes I was talking about. The Squadron Supreme scenario never ends up working. Not in comics, anyways. Every time guys in tights try to take over, it ends in tragedy. Except maybe Ex Machina, but he didn't take over, he worked within the system. But metahuman changes to the status quo always end with everyone dead.

[jackolover]

Yes. What do we want? I know I don't want the project Wideawake story, that disposes of all metas. I would have liked the compromise in the second story, because I keep harping about that all the time since Civil War.

But what we got was something that discredits Captain America, and then he's killed. Even though Brubaker claims that was his plot, and he had to bring it forward, I still think Marvel Editorial made the call to dispose of Cap. So I have to ask. Did the Civil War that we did get give us a world we can accept?

Did the CW fallout - death of Cap, make Cap a more interesting character? I think it did. I think, if they just tried Cap, he would have been incarcerated and not put to death, but Marvel couldn't see how that could move Cap forward. Breaking him out wouldn't solve anything, because that wouldn't do it anyway. I didn't get Brubakers Cap run, until Cap died, and then I went and bought the old issues, for background on Winter Soldier. I thought the Millar Cap made Steve Rogers the most interesating he has been for ages, but Millar wasn't going to be doing Cap in the future. And having Cap dead in his own book, makes you get the book, to find clues on how they are going to bring him back. It also makes you wonder what Cap has become, and what could be his future.

So, is the Civil War/Initiative/WWH something we can accept, or would we have liked one of the other endings from the What If?

[SquidSquod]

Eh so Gyrich can make platoon of Clors without Reed and Pym’s help?

Not necessarily. What we saw was only one of 2 alternatives, Caps way and Tony's way. Go along with the registration, or continue on with that status quo. There's the other extreme of going the Gruenwald Squadron Supreme route (which would have been bad, but preferable to the entire hero community being decimated since it's vital to the continued existance of mankind and arguably the universe itself), and everything in between.

Cap’s way by resisting without knowing the inside is Armageddon like an unintended Jedi Order 66. Iron Man’s way is Marvel continuity. Cap and Iron Man’s way is the good ending. Now, there are might be other alternatives, but Marvel is going with the above story threads. The 2nd part tells a very good story on how paradise is made through Iron Man and Captain America synergy. Iron Man brings the strategic foresight, Captain America brings the tactical leadership.

[Alpow]

I thought the Millar Cap made Steve Rogers the most interesating he has been for ages, but Millar wasn't going to be doing Cap in the future. And having Cap dead in his own book, makes you get the book, to find clues on how they are going to bring him back. It also makes you wonder what Cap has become, and what could be his future.

You have read the pre civil war Brubaker Cap and didn't find it more interesting that Ultimate Cap-lite?

So, is the Civil War/Initiative/WWH something we can accept, or would we have liked one of the other endings from the What If?

I would have preferred the second ending but better yet would have be avoiding the whole mess in the first place.

Some of the spin offs from civil war have been interesting but things can't continue like this forever because it is too constraining (Marvel has already started up the revolving door again by ignoring 42, it seems like Spider Man's fallout is being retconed, Richard's motives were changed before the event finished and will likely be put to rest in the current arc, Stark has decided registration isn't terribly important, in Daredevil the SHRA may as well not exist and so on).

If Marvel has a good way to move back towards the former status quo whilst keeping some of the more interesting by-products then it should be good, just ignoring things and throwing about mystical retcons isn't going to cut it.

[Kefky]

Registration definitely isn't going to stick around for too long. I was thinking that secret invasion might do away with it for good, but judging from interviews by Bendis, it looks like that event'll make it a lot less annoying and obnoxious. At least the heroes need to cut that **** out already.

[mikekerr3]

Although What if Annihilation was down-right awesome, and much better than What if Civil War, it was still a good read.

For everyone who misses the interaction between Iron man and Captain America, this is a must read.:cool:


This Issue also b proves that to ensure any hope of peace and fredom Hill and Gyrich must die. They are pond scum in Continuity but here they are scum with power.

[jackolover]

This Issue also b proves that to ensure any hope of peace and fredom Hill and Gyrich must die. They are pond scum in Continuity but here they are scum with power.


Yes, the What If? Civil War book does paint Hill and Gyrich as more than just support characters, in the Marvel Universe. These people are practically the sleeper Captain Americas of the normals. I know you want them to be dead, but to have these two hanging over the metas, like death walking around, makes for intriguing tension, because now we know what actual status Hill and Gyrich hold in the MU. Project Wideawake has two drivers, and at any time, these two can be triggered to make this happen. Hill and Gyrich are continuously looking over the shoulders of the metas, and that puts the metas on notice, and the metas don't even know this yet. Or do they? Now that the Watcher has shown Tony the What If? on Civil War, now Tony knows that Hill and Gyrich are the sleepers. Where does Tony go from there?

[jackolover]

You have read the pre civil war Brubaker Cap and didn't find it more interesting than Ultimate Cap-lite?.


Funnily enough, I didn't get interested in Brubakers Cap, when he started on the book. It felt like anybody elses Cap written the same way from all previous incarnations. (Except for the Winter Soldier aspect of it). What would make pre-CW Cap interesting?

The Red Skull was forming another plan. I've seem plenty of those, and Brubakers was no different. Sure, it was a long, drawn out plan, starting with the need to kill Skull, then introduce Winter Soldier, and release Winter Soldier, and make Bucky and Cap meet. Then get Cap involved in CW, Sharon kill him, and a host of support characters come out of the woodwork to continue what Cap could have done.

It got interesting when Cap did something I never expected him to do. Break with his old friend Tony Stark. Soon as Cap made that move, you knew this was going to end badly, and I wanted to be there for that ride. It didn't really matter who wrote this story, because the aspect of Cap going rogue in the environment of government crackdowns on metas, with no prospect of backdowns, was going to write itself, in the end. Marvel had to end CW, and there was only one way it was going to end. You can't compare the Brubaker Cap to what happened after CW #1. There has never been anyone like the Cap that took the bullet as the leader of the metas who couldn't accept Registration. Nothing compares with that representation.




I would have preferred the second ending but better yet would have been avoiding the whole mess in the first place.

So would I. The second ending would have been so much more satisfying and familiar as the two characters that were present in pre-CW, Cap and Tony. The actual CW characters of Tony and Steve were nothing like I imagined these characters turning into. It felt like an Earth X apocalypse event

The first story of the genocide of the metas, was just SO unbelievable, that you couldn't take it seriously, but it is the story that told Tony what Hill and Gyrich are in the MU.

The second story is how the CW should have turned out, and felt comfortable, and had a satisfying resolution.

How the writers and editors framed and plotted the actual story of CW is so awkward, and uncomfortable, that it is a tribute to the creators for making such an abrasive saga, that doesn't sit well with the characters. We had betrayals, deaths, taboo experimentations, and wild new tech, all for the sole purpose of breaking the hold of the vigilante law. It was a pure revolution, and I hated the way characters acted, but loved that this was HOW they acted, in a situation over which they had no control.

[Zacharius]

It got interesting when Cap did something I never expected him to do. Break with his old friend Tony Stark. Soon as Cap made that move, you knew this was going to end badly, and I wanted to be there for that ride. It didn't really matter who wrote this story, because the aspect of Cap going rogue in the environment of government crackdowns on metas, with no prospect of backdowns, was going to write itself, in the end. Marvel had to end CW, and there was only one way it was going to end.

There is one comic which went other way, more than Authority and Miracleman.

Judge Dredd.

In that comic main characters rule their territory (Mega-City 1), machines do nearly all the work and civilians are unemployed.Most important subject in schools is unemployment.There was also one story where Judge Dredd sentenced last president to hard labor for life.

Marvel could have gone that route.

How the writers and editors framed and plotted the actual story of CW is so awkward, and uncomfortable, that it is a tribute to the creators for making such an abrasive saga, that doesn't sit well with the characters.

Yes because Mark Millar apparently despises entire genre:

Would you really want these guys to be unlicensed? Vigilantes don't have super-powers and they're outlawed. Superheroes would be a nightmare. I'd be leading the march to Washington DC for the Sentinels to crush the bastards because I don't like seeing buildings come down and, as we all know, this happens at least once an issue these days. So I was backing Tony all the way.


Costumed vigilantism is the ENTIRE IDEA of the genre.But just because they have Quesada in charge....

[jackolover]

Yes because Mark Millar apparently despises entire genre:

It is too easy to just dismiss the story as only Mark Millar 'apparantly despising the genre'. The plot started out as his, but was subject to editorial, with drafts and redrafts, so I wouldn't lay this whole thing just on Millar. You would have to accept that Quesada was shooting himself in the foot, if you actually came to that conclusion, because the hero genre is his whole business, and Joe Q wouldn't just let anybody run around with proprietory characters like that. Civil War was a corporate thing, concocted by a large brain trust, that had CW planned out as a co-operative work.

I would be interested in knowing if the two other What If? scenarios were mapped out before CW. That would make the actual story something in between the two What If? stories, and so make CW even more amazing.

[rZi]

This was not what i was expecting at all...I thought it would stay closer to the original CW plot and go off in some unpredictable direction which i frankly don't care much about.

[XPac]

This was not what i was expecting at all...I thought it would stay closer to the original CW plot and go off in some unpredictable direction which i frankly don't care much about.

That's the thing... What If's pretty much always do that.

Things to to a frankly ridiculous extreme. That's why I always have trouble taking them too seriously. Most of the time they lead to Armageddon... occasionally they lead to some sort of perfect future. Either way, it makes it hard to buy it.

[Alpow]

Funnily enough, I didn't get interested in Brubakers Cap, when he started on the book. It felt like anybody elses Cap written the same way from all previous incarnations. (Except for the Winter Soldier aspect of it). What would make pre-CW Cap interesting?

I don't see a huge amount of difference throughout Brubakers run, good stories from start to finish.

It got interesting when Cap did something I never expected him to do. Break with his old friend Tony Stark.

He has done that before, Armour Wars for example.

I never really conceived of Cap as Iron Man's lackey so not doing as Tony told him wasn't some big shock.

It didn't really matter who wrote this story, because the aspect of Cap going rogue in the environment of government crackdowns on metas, with no prospect of backdowns, was going to write itself, in the end. Marvel had to end CW, and there was only one way it was going to end. You can't compare the Brubaker Cap to what happened after CW #1. There has never been anyone like the Cap that took the bullet as the leader of the metas who couldn't accept Registration. Nothing compares with that representation.

Yes because they had Cap doing extreme things (bordering on the 90's sense of that term) doesn't mean it is pure awesome or beyond comparison, Cap's character was explored far more during Bru's run pre civil war than during civil war (it would be difficult for it to be any other way given he had 20 issues of a solo series and Millar had 7 issues of Cap as a plot device).

The actual CW characters of Tony and Steve were nothing like I imagined these characters turning into.

Yes, it is example of making the characters fit the plot and not the other way around.

How the writers and editors framed and plotted the actual story of CW is so awkward, and uncomfortable, that it is a tribute to the creators for making such an abrasive saga, that doesn't sit well with the characters. We had betrayals, deaths, taboo experimentations, and wild new tech, all for the sole purpose of breaking the hold of the vigilante law. It was a pure revolution, and I hated the way characters acted, but loved that this was HOW they acted, in a situation over which they had no control.

I would prefer the characters been consistent rather than simply doing a series of shocking or "cool" things, if we go down the latter route than we may as well just do away with continuity and characters beyond physical designs.

[jackolover]

Cap's character was explored far more during Bru's run pre civil war than during civil war (it would be difficult for it to be any other way given he had 20 issues of a solo series and Millar had 7 issues of Cap as a plot device).


See, there is what I don't get. I can read those Brubaker issues, pre-CW, and I can't even see Cap in those stories. He's like a support character in his own book. There was no killing of team mates. There was no betrayal by friends. There was no unscrupulous manipulations from people he trusted. It was a Nazi- giant robot story, a detective story, and a Red Skull story. Nothing in these themes, or the great writing of Brubaker, could make this interesting, because it was blase'.

Then we get the CW, and all hell breaks loose. It just doesn't compare. Sorry.

[Eclips0]

This issue was a lame attempt to try and redeem Tony and convince people to agree with him. Also a missed oppertunity for the watcher to kill him off in a really cool way. Such as switching him and Cap so that Iron Man died and the right side won.