What makes Captain America one of the most popular heroes?

[mohammedali]

What makes Captain America one of the most popular heroes?

I had a few ideas of what it could be:
- His history of being one of the oldest super heroes around.
- Because he fought in the World War.
- His abilities in fightnig
- The fact that he is representing America
- Steve Rodgers, and the person that he his.
- His personality and morality.

What do you think it is, and why. Is it one of the above, or another reason all together?

[The Ray]

What made Captain America one of the most popular heroes now?


His death.

[Nick MB]

What made Captain America one of the most popular heroes now?


His death.

I more or less agree.

Cap isn't actually particularly popular most of the time. Even when he has an acclaimed writer doing good work on his book (such as Brubaker) he was still selling fairly humdrum numbers. Only during event storylines (such as him being killed) has he outsold characters like Spidey and X-Men, and even there, his sales are currently dipping back into midrange.

[md62]

His leadership - morals & sense of responsibilty. He is the hero ALL the other heroes look up to.

I remember one time Thor took Steve to Asgard & the gods showed Steve total respect. The comment was made that Steve was the one mortal all the gods respected because of his nobilty & honor.

[cernunnos]

His leadership - morals & sense of responsibilty. He is the hero ALL the other heroes look up to.

This is not only the correct answer but also the only answer.:D :cool:

[Mr Omnis]

He punched Hitler in the face. That makes him everyone's favorite.

[Your Imaginary Pal]

He never gives up he stays till the fight is won
he's a real American hero
but that might be G.I. Joe.

but really he's the peak of human potential. He's the super hero we caan aspire to be, with discipline and determination(sort of like Batman). He's very fair, somewhat rational(not a complete hot head). He goes into battle with a shield, I mean he will fight an Alien armada, with a shield. And win. His morals and sense of justice and his willingness to sacrifice himself. Plus he trained like 70%* of the Avengers in H2H combat.

*number is arbitrary and has no basis in statistical study.

[DeadXMan]

He never gives up he stays till the fight is won
he's a real American hero
but that might be G.I. Joe.

but really he's the peak of human potential. He's the super hero we caan aspire to be, with discipline and determination(sort of like Batman). He's very fair, somewhat rational(not a complete hot head). He goes into battle with a shield, I mean he will fight an Alien armada, with a shield. And win. His morals and sense of justice and his willingness to sacrifice himself. Plus he trained like 70%* of the Avengers in H2H combat.

*number is arbitrary and has no basis in statistical study.


aye if cap was alive WWH would of been different

[PatchMadripoor]

aye if cap was alive WWH would of been different

Cap would've figured out a way to talk down the Hulk or coordinated the attack against the Hulk and the Warbound much better.

That said, Bruce Banner is going to bust out of Gamma Base when he finds out Steve is dead.

[XPac]

I more or less agree.

Cap isn't actually particularly popular most of the time. Even when he has an acclaimed writer doing good work on his book (such as Brubaker) he was still selling fairly humdrum numbers. Only during event storylines (such as him being killed) has he outsold characters like Spidey and X-Men, and even there, his sales are currently dipping back into midrange.

There are degrees of popularity.

He's not the company's top guy like Spidey, but he's had an on-going series for decades. That's nothing to sneeze that.

As for what makes him popular... he's the hero that other heroes think of as their hero. He's the guy that people can look up to (when Mark Millar isn't writing him).

[DeadXMan]

Cap would've figured out a way to talk down the Hulk or coordinated the attack against the Hulk and the Warbound much better.

That said, Bruce Banner is going to bust out of Gamma Base when he finds out Steve is dead.

Hulk knows Cap's dead
Rick told him.

[PatchMadripoor]

Hulk knows Cap's dead
Rick told him.

Totally forgot that scene. Yeah. Even a rampagin angry beat up everyhero Hulk gets flattened by the news that the very best of the best of heroes is out of the game.

[DeadXMan]

Totally forgot that scene. Yeah. Even a rampagin angry beat up everyhero Hulk gets flattened by the news that the very best of the best of heroes is out of the game.

I bet he was all primed to go but had to settle for the sentry.

I bet he wrote a Haiku between issues.

Woe to the warbond
The Great champion is gone
They have much to pay

[SquidSquod]

What makes Cap famous is his sense of morality. But the end of CW shows that he's not invulnerable which is sometimes the point of every uber-Cap story. Next time he wakes up, he needs to get injected with Extremis or some sort getting free of the Batman mystique.

[seeso]

I never really liked him before Brubaker. I never read his solo title before he took over, but I've read Avengers since the early 80's. Cap was always boring to me then. It's hard to make the guy interesting.

[BYC]

It's pretty simple actually.

He's suppose to be Superman in MU. Not power wise of course, but in the sense that he reflects how USA and humanity in general should be, instead of how they are actually.

He's suppose to be honest, kind, caring to his friends. Powerful, righteous, fearsome to his enemies. Basically, all the traits that most people in the world respect and strive to reach (more often than not). Traits such as these don't make him perfect of course. I think in his case, as in contrast to Superman, his low power levels makes it easier for fans to relate. Superman has often been compared to a god or messiac (sp?) figures. Captain America has no such problems.

His origin helps a lot. A weak person who has been blessed by science to help him fight for his country in order to stop evil.

[stelok]

as I had suspected, Flag-themed superheroes have not been appealing to the readers anymore, since world war II. During the time that the patriotic fervor was heightened by September-11-2001 attacks, Cap's popularity didn't grow much in spite of John Cassaday's superb, crisp and detailed art.

In some countries, wearing a national flag of the said countries for any purpose is considered offensive.

[Arilou]

Beats me, I've never liked him.

[Mitchel]

Sometimes I thought that all the perfection that Captain America embodies made him a preachy boring character but still, a character like that is necessary. In a time when Punisher & Wolverine are more popular heroes he is more of an almost unattainable example to strive for. He is also a stronger statement dead than alive. I think Marvel makes him a louder voice by keeping him dead, like saying that the morals and family values that supported the nation in years past are either dying or evolving. He becomes more like a dead martyr.

Also the name Captain America, that he is wearing the United States flag and him being white, tall, blonde and blue eye is more alienating to readers than the more universal dark haired Superman.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

as I had suspected, Flag-themed superheroes have not been appealing to the readers anymore, since world war II. During the time that the patriotic fervor was heightened by September-11-2001 attacks, Cap's popularity didn't grow much in spite of John Cassaday's superb, crisp and detailed art.

In some countries, wearing a national flag of the said countries for any purpose is considered offensive.

And yet, he's been able to keep a series for thirty years?

You honestly have the wrong idea when it comes to Cap. The people you seem to think he is are Ultimate Cap and US Agent (more US Agent).

[reta-winter soldier]

And yet, he's been able to keep a series for thirty years?

You honestly have the wrong idea when it comes to Cap. The people you seem to think he is are Ultimate Cap and US Agent (more US Agent).

precisely I mean the blue eyed blond thing is just a critique of the nazis ubermensch. Cap is great because in every single way he is perfect. The man is the most noble and pure hero even more than superman in my view. He is the pinnacle of human effort (science+hard work). He's the guy you wished you could be, always knows every answer (except like said before when written by millar). He just represents justice.

What makes him interesting in contrast to superman is that he in his way isn't always sure he's moving with the times right, he can't solve modern America's problem's with a shield. I liked in 21st century blitz arc when he says the corporations now control america just like Lincoln predicted. He just feels apart sometimes, the man out of time in short.

[mikekerr3]

precisely I mean the blue eyed blond thing is just a critique of the nazis ubermensch. Cap is great because in every single way he is perfect. The man is the most noble and pure hero even more than superman in my view. He is the pinnacle of human effort (science+hard work). He's the guy you wished you could be, always knows every answer (except like said before when written by millar). He just represents justice.

What makes him interesting in contrast to superman is that he in his way isn't always sure he's moving with the times right, he can't solve modern America's problem's with a shield. I liked in 21st century blitz arc when he says the corporations now control america just like Lincoln predicted. He just feels apart sometimes, the man out of time in short.

I think a qquote used to describe Audie Murphy could be used to describe Cap, "He was the man we were afraid to be and afraid we were not. " Comparing someone to Audie Murphy is to me the highest compliment you can pay a soldier.

Chuck Norris is an actor, Audie Murphy was the "genuine article " who happened to become a actor, all 5'5" and 120Lbs of him.

[Slyfer]

Cap is the only person in Marvel U that isn't afraid of anyone

One and One with Thanos, Hulk, The X-men. It doesn't matter CAP will take you out. Lol

[mikekerr3]

Cap is the only person in Marvel U that isn't afraid of anyone

One and One with Thanos, Hulk, The X-men. It doesn't matter CAP will take you out. Lol

I think the point of Cap is that he gets afraid, knows he's outclassed but goes in anyway. It is a military Axiom that if someone is not afraid in a fight he's not brave, he's stupid. There is no courage without fear.

[chilled monkey]

I think the point of Cap is that he gets afraid, knows he's outclassed but goes in anyway. It is a military Axiom that if someone is not afraid in a fight he's not brave, he's stupid. There is no courage without fear.

Precisely.

Courage lies in admitting that you're afraid, and still doing what you have to do even though you're afraid.

[rogerio]

Ed Brubaker and Steve Epting...

[Tobias Drake]

Ed Brubaker and Steve Epting...

Quoted for Truth.

[onelasthero]

I more or less agree.

Cap isn't actually particularly popular most of the time. Even when he has an acclaimed writer doing good work on his book (such as Brubaker) he was still selling fairly humdrum numbers. Only during event storylines (such as him being killed) has he outsold characters like Spidey and X-Men, and even there, his sales are currently dipping back into midrange.

Same here, if it wasn't for his bad boy role in Civil War that ended in his death, he may not have had the same appeal. Yes, he was a great leader, but his resilience (not including when he gave up in issue 7) to take on Shield when they tried to arrest him just made him an epic figure.

[Imperfect]

Because Iron Man is a bastard.

[jackolover]

Before Civil War, Cap, in his own book, was just another agent, doing work for Shield. He did it for 30 years ad nauseum, and became a sort of sameness. Even Brubaker and Epting and Perkins didn't really improve on that.

Cap in the Avengers was the epitome of the Ultimate leader. Like everyone here has said, Cap was looked up to by all the heroes, and now that he is gone, you can see why he was that leader. Nobody else did that role like Cap, to lead superheroes much stronger than himself, into battles that were outclassing him. And because Cap took on the tough guy villain, out front in the fight, the stronger heroes accepted him as their leader. Captain America insisted on that leadership role, and naturally took over the Avengers as soon as he was accepted into the group. It was like there was one person missing all that time, and when Cap came into the MU, then the team was complete. Well it's all gone to hell now.

[Theophilus]

Before Civil War, Cap, inhis own book, was just another agent, doing work for Shield. He did it for 30 years ad nauseum, and became a sort of sameness. Even Brubaker and Epting and Perkins didn't really improve on that.

To be fair, all comic characters have "a sort of sameness". I think you're shortchanging the SHIELD aspect of his character. Cap isn't "just another agent" working for SHIELD. Quite the opposite. He hasn't been thrilled to work with SHIELD since the latter part of the Lee run. Lee's Fury made Cap a "persona non grata" long before Maria Hill did. He'll work with SHIELD to acheive mutual goals, but he's not real comfortable with their methods and he's too much of an independent agent to appreciate conformity.

When done right, that makes for dramatic tension and is quite a different thing from being just another agent.

Cap in the Avengers was the epitome of the Ultimate leader. Like everyone here has said, Cap was looked up to by all the heroes, and now that he is gone, you can see why he was that leader. Nobody else did that role like Cap, to lead superheroes much stronger than himself, into battles that were outclassing him. And because Cap took on the tough guy villain, out front in the fight, the stronger heroes accepted him as their leader. Captain America insisted on that leadership role, and naturally took over the Avengers as soon as he was accepted into the group. It was like there was one person missing all that time, and when Cap came into the MU, then the team was complete. Well it's all gone to hell now.

Yeah. This reminds me of What If? v1 #44, where if the Avengers didn't find Cap they disbanded for lack of a "unifying spirit".

[jackolover]

To be fair, all comic characters have "a sort of sameness". I think you're shortchanging the SHIELD aspect of his character. Cap isn't "just another agent" working for SHIELD. Quite the opposite. He hasn't been thrilled to work with SHIELD since the latter part of the Lee run. Lee's Fury made Cap a "persona non grata" long before Maria Hill did. He'll work with SHIELD to acheive mutual goals, but he's not real comfortable with their methods and he's too much of an independent agent to appreciate conformity.

When done right, that makes for dramatic tension and is quite a different thing from being just another agent.


This is worth more exploring further. You say that the aspects of Cap being 'persona non grata' made the books more interesting. The books still had a character that was basically a Shield agent, with a little more power and ability. I'm not saying Cap WAS a Shield agent, because he wasn't. But his books were basically confronting, and taking out Shield level threats in his own books. It was detective work, very low tech, with sidekick involvement - that was the basic formula of all Cap stories. Just like all Spiderman stories were animal motive villains in street level encounters. They are basic formulae that nobody veered away from, and that's what has made the characters stale to me, in the modern setting.

Modernising Spiderman is easy in my book. You just make him a tech based organisational character, with free reign to operate, like a Green Hornet, but with powers.

Cap is a whole other story, now that Brubaker has changed Caps status as deceased, and Millar has altered Caps dignity by embarrasing him in front of all the metas. If Steve Rogers had lived, he wouldn't have lived down his capitulation, in the the next phase of Initiative. Cap was poisoned. That's why Brubakers new status for Cap, makes for an intreguing re-emergence of the Captain America figure. If Brubaker makes a clean break and puts a new guy in as Cap, then people can probably accept the guy, because he has none of the poisoned baggage of Rogers. If, instead, Brubaker eventually brings back Rogers, there had better be a big distraction going on in the Marvel Universe, because most people will remember the values and mistakes and guilt, and traitorous aspects left by Millar after Civil War. Not that this will not be interesting. But it would hamper Rogers ability to slide right into the meta world, again. He would not be as welcome in the Avengers, and other metas would remember how he never continued the anti-registration push, because he suddenly realised he wasn't doing it the right way. If Cap can make those mistakes on judgement calls, maybe he shouldn't be in charge of meta teams.





Yeah. This reminds me of What If? v1 #44, where if the Avengers didn't find Cap they disbanded for lack of a "unifying spirit".

I may have to find that book, and see how that pans out.

[Slyfer]

Dude I know murderers in the MU who would never raise a hand to CAP. That is saying alot about the man as a Hero and as an Individual .


He commands a friggin Thunder God! Hello .............

[DeadXMan]

I so want a What If... Cap was still alive during WWH

[jackolover]

Dude I know murderers in the MU who would never raise a hand to CAP. That is saying alot about the man as a Hero and as an Individual .


He commands a friggin Thunder God! Hello .............

Yeah. But not anymore. His image has been tarnished. Marvel have to address this, if they bring back Rogers. And not just Captain America, who has to re-establish himself with the Anti-reg side people, again, but Steve Rogers has lost his place in the world. He thought he knew his stance was right, and he fought to uphold it, and all the while he was smacked up against the SHRA, which he couldn't comprehend. What if Cap returns to a world where all heroes are registered? What is he going to do? Fight the Red Skull, and act like nothing has happened? Somehow Steve has to reconcile that this new law is reality, and he has to live in it. Can he do that?

[XPac]

Yeah. But not anymore. His image has been tarnished. Marvel have to address this, if they bring back Rogers. And not just Captain America, who has to re-establish himself with the Anti-reg side people, again, but Steve Rogers has lost his place in the world. He thought he knew his stance was right, and he fought to uphold it, and all the while he was smacked up against the SHRA, which he couldn't comprehend. What if Cap returns to a world where all heroes are registered? What is he going to do? Fight the Red Skull, and act like nothing has happened? Somehow Steve has to reconcile that this new law is reality, and he has to live in it. Can he do that?

I'd assume Cap, if he returns, would simply return to lead the New Avengers.

At this point, the pro's aren't even bothering to try and hunt down the NA anymore, so it's actually a pretty viable option.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Plus, it wasn't like he was completely and utterly against registration. There were some aspects that he liked.

Cap is stubborn, but it's not like he hasn't had to deal with diversity before, jackolover.

I mean, the guy came from the 40s. There was ALOT he had to deal with coming back from his icy slumber.

[jackolover]

Plus, it wasn't like he was completely and utterly against registration. There were some aspects that he liked.

Cap is stubborn, but it's not like he hasn't had to deal with diversity before, jackolover.

I mean, the guy came from the 40s. There was ALOT he had to deal with coming back from his icy slumber.

I'd assume Cap, if he returns, would simply return to lead the New Avengers.

At this point, the pro's aren't even bothering to try and hunt down the NA anymore, so it's actually a pretty viable option.

You're both taking Caps defeat in CW as a non-event. Xpac, you're saying Cap would just slot back into the Avengers like nothing happened; and there is the comment Tony made, that he doesn't care about the registration anymore. If that is the case, then Marvel is retconning Civil War. If Cap came back, Tony is going to do nothing about Cap because the heat has gone out of the registration, and the whole reason for going to war is non-existant anymore? I would think Cap at least might mention it.

And Kamikaze, Cap looks like coming back from another icy grave after the ending of Fallen Son, so there is probably going to be a memory loss situation there, and people will not even mention CW to Cap as he readjusts to the new world. That's a sure way to bring back Cap and not have the whole conflict be brought up again.

[Alan2099]

Cap did lose, but saying he was wrong is another story altogether. There are a lot of things he feared would happen already happening. The system was corrupt from the get go.

[XPac]

You're both taking Caps defeat in CW as a non-event. Xpac, you're saying Cap would just slot back into the Avengers like nothing happened; and there is the comment Tony made, that he doesn't care about the registration anymore. If that is the case, then Marvel is retconning Civil War. If Cap came back, Tony is going to do nothing about Cap because the heat has gone out of the registration, and the whole reason for going to war is non-existant anymore? I would think Cap at least might mention it.



I didn't sy he wouldn't mention any of it... what I simply said is that ultimately Cap will go back to work beating up the badguys. That's what he does.

If he feels the registration is wrong (which he seemed to believe even after he surrendered himself), he'll likely ally himself with the New Avengers. That's not retconning Civil War in any way.

[Eclips0]

Would retconning Civil War really be all that bad? Then Cap could be back and Tony could go back to being a pathetic drunk instead of a power-mad dictator.

[mikekerr3]

Cap did lose, but saying he was wrong is another story altogether. There are a lot of things he feared would happen already happening. The system was corrupt from the get go.

Cap was winning when he quit to avoid further damage.

[shades of eternity]

while cliche this song pretty much sums it up

When it comes crashing down, and it hurts inside,
ya' gotta take a stand, it don't help to hide,
Well, you hurt my friends, and you hurt my pride,
I gotta be a man; I can't let it slide,
I am a real American, Fight for the rights of every man,
I am a real American, fight for what's right, fight for your life!

I feel strong about right and wrong,
And I don't take trouble for very long,
I got something deep inside of me, and courage is the thing that keeps us free,
I am a real American, Fight for the rights of every man,
I am a real American, fight for what's right, fight for your life!

Well you hurt my friends, and you hurt my pride,
I gotta be a man; I can't let it slide,
I am a real American, Fight for the rights of every man,
I am a real American, fight for what's right, fight for your life!
I am a real American, Fight for the rights of every man,
I am a real American, fight for what's right, fight for your life!

[jackolover]

I didn't sy he wouldn't mention any of it... what I simply said is that ultimately Cap will go back to work beating up the badguys. That's what he does.

If he feels the registration is wrong (which he seemed to believe even after he surrendered himself), he'll likely ally himself with the New Avengers. That's not retconning Civil War in any way.

That still sounds like the CW was retconned, if Tony Stark doesn't put pressure on Cap to arrest him for all the damage done during the CW. Cap joining the New Avengers, and nobody caring, would tarnish the whole resistance of the anti-regs stance in the first place. If Cap came back, and slinked away into the NA, it would a huge disrespect to Bill Foster, and the other deaths in CW, because Cap was the driver that lead to those deaths. He should put up a memorial to the fallen and some kind of agitation should be started, like a political campaign be started, so that the anti-reg push does not just vanish. It may put Cap back on the radar, but if Cap has any conviction in him, then CW should not just lie down and be buried.

Edit : Have you seen that movie 'You've Got Mail'? It is a story about a big conglomerate bookstore pushing a little bookstore out of business, by doing discounts on books that undercut the small bookstore. The small bookstore was in business for 42 years, but the big store gobbled up the business. This could be an analogy for the change in the atmosphere of the business related to superheroes. For 42 years heroes could do business in a little small time way, and people would frequent their business. Now, along comes the SHRA and now business is being undercut in the small time field, so it vanishes. Is this what the SHRA has done? Has the big store business sceme now been made the normal landscape, and the other small time business' have folded, never to bother the super stores ever again? If this is what happens to Captain Americas dream of old style superheroing, then the way of doing business will always stay as the Initiative from now on. But will Marvel ever bring a time, when the big business of superheroing will ever be so heartless and profiteering enough, to go back to the idealistic small time superheroing of vigilanteism of Captain America? Is Captain America so popular because he was part of the small time vigilanteism?

I can't envisage Captain America operating in the big superheroing business of the Initiative. So, yes. Vigilanteism is what makes Captain America so popular.

[jackolover]

Would retconning Civil War really be all that bad? Then Cap could be back and Tony could go back to being a pathetic drunk instead of a power-mad dictator.

It would be a slap in the face to Peter Parker and the New Avengers that committed themselves to the drive to resist the Law. With Cap now off the scene, nobody has been a focus for the resistance, and so, Peter has had no support for his family. Letting the whole struggle of CW melt away, makes the Pro-reg side just another 5th column in a winning war. The whole point of CW was that vigilanteism be struck out of the superhuman activity agenda, and be replaced by Initiative. Will the Initiative be retconed as well, so that all the purpose of normals is shown up to have been false in the first place, and subjected the heroes to the CW indecencies fo no reason?

[rwsmith]

Honestly, I have no idea. He's always seemed really lame to me. Well, except for the Ultimate version.

[HeckBoy]

I can't speak for everybody else, but I've always liked Cap b/c of his origin and his purpose (in the context of his fictional life). He wasn't really a superhero as much as he was a soldier when he debuted. Brubaker's fleshing out of Cap and his activity during WWII really hit it on the nail. Plus, I loved how he didnt exactly have "super" powers yet still lead a group that consisted of gods and other far-from-normal characters. Also, I just love how he's still around despite being one of Marvel/Timely's oft-ignored Golden Age heroes. That shows a timelessness about him that hopefully will carry on.

[jackolover]

I can't speak for everybody else, but I've always liked Cap b/c of his origin and his purpose (in the context of his fictional life). He wasn't really a superhero as much as he was a soldier when he debuted. Brubaker's fleshing out of Cap and his activity during WWII really hit it on the nail. Plus, I loved how he didnt exactly have "super" powers yet still lead a group that consisted of gods and other far-from-normal characters. Also, I just love how he's still around despite being one of Marvel/Timely's oft-ignored Golden Age heroes. That shows a timelessness about him that hopefully will carry on.

I suppose Cap is a bit like Gwen Stacy. Quesada and Millar try to make him irrelevant, and Brubaker tries to eliminate him altogether. But he does have that staying power, that rebounds back into relevance despite the criticism Cap is lumbered with. Even dead, there is no burying Captain America, as much as Tony Stark, and others try to convince everybody why Cap lost the Civil War. If Cap lost the Civil War, why hasn't he died already? Lots of people have said Cap has outlived modern times, and he lost contact with America. But he still lingers in the conscience.

[Wally_West]

cap's personality man.

i believe spiderman said it best during the civil war:
"uh cap? can i carry your books to school? you know, for the rest of my life?"

[jackolover]

Yeah. This reminds me of What If? v1 #44, where if the Avengers didn't find Cap they disbanded for lack of a "unifying spirit".

I've read the book, now.

It was interesting for the politics that you have to wade through. Most of the book is about the replacement Cap from the 50's who was supposed to be psychotic, but you never got the impression of how wrong he was, until the really bad things happened, like African-Americans walled up into ghettos, after the failure of peaceful consultation turned to widespread rioting around the country.

What I don't quite understand about this story, is that there were other superheroes in the world, but none of them did anything about the civil disturbances, even Spiderman, who became part of the resistance with Nick Fury, after the spy networks were disbanded. It seems, in this alternate universe, that Tony Stark disappears, after Stark Industries is confiscated from him. And, as has been stated before, the Avengers disbanded soon after forming, so the heroes like Hank Pym and Thor never had the sway they could have, if Tony Stark still payrolled the Avengers. The FF were sent off to Arizona or some place, and other heroes were placated so they were unable to act.

We really don't get to see the world as a whole, but it seems like it has a bit of the TBolts about the political system, because the Serpent Squad has been a visible part of a powerful political party. Who know. Maybe Norman Osborn is a major player in this universe.

This situation, with the heroes having little sway in the normals environment, makes for a very complicated hero/villian dynamic, and smacks a lot like the current Initiative, where the normals are in greater control than pre-Civil War.

What it does bring to light is that a country without the ideals of FREEDOM sinks back into bigotry. I'm not convinced by the real Captain Americas speeches in this story, or the response of the common people when Cap makes his speech. It seemed like the normals harboured some revulsion of the persecution of a minority group (the Afro-Amer), but it took the rousing speech by Cap to bring it to the surface, and start a new revolution in that universe, for the replacement of fear fed laws, with more liberal laws, allowing the variation in cultural and racial differences.

If this is a fair representation of what MARVEL thought would be a world without the real true Captain America (What If ? vol 1 #44), then how is it that the current Cap is viewed as antiquated and un-neccesary?

[jackolover]

Double post

[PaidHero]

His leadership - morals & sense of responsibilty. He is the hero ALL the other heroes look up to.

I remember one time Thor took Steve to Asgard & the gods showed Steve total respect. The comment was made that Steve was the one mortal all the gods respected because of his nobilty & honor.

Yeah hes a great role model. Not just for readers but for the heroes in the Marvel Universe. They all look up to him. He deserves alot more credit than he recieves.

[jackolover]

Yeah hes a great role model. Not just for readers but for the heroes in the Marvel Universe. They all look up to him. He deserves alot more credit than he recieves.

I don't see Cap as a great role model for readers. Spidey and Thor, yes, because they act from the heart, and with emotion. That's what makes a great role model for me.

Cap? He is like a grounding. Something you touch when you need courage. Spidey caves a lot of times, when he's overwhelmed. But when Caps around, Peter gets all his Dutch courage, just from Cap. I never saw Cap rush into a situation and sacrifice his sense of analytical clarity, like Spidey and Thor have done. Cap is a cold, calculating, general, who sees the whole battle field, and not the single fallen soldier.

[azuman]

is it american people love patriots an lots of the MA are american?!;)

[Kid Kamikaze10]

I don't see Cap as a great role model for readers. Spidey and Thor, yes, because they act from the heart, and with emotion. That's what makes a great role model for me.

Cap? He is like a grounding. Something you touch when you need courage. Spidey caves a lot of times, when he's overwhelmed. But when Caps around, Peter gets all his Dutch courage, just from Cap. I never saw Cap rush into a situation and sacrifice his sense of analytical clarity, like Spidey and Thor have done. Cap is a cold, calculating, general, who sees the whole battle field, and not the single fallen soldier.

Uh...

I wrote my college essay about Cap. Yes, he is a great role model.

[Omega the Unknown]

Cap is the epitome of the American dream, going from being too weak to be a soldier to superhero.

he sees America not as it is, but as it could be, and should be, and will fight to make it that way.

Cap, is the "light shining on the hill", to borrow a line from Reagan.

which is one of the reasons he is not that popular, as it is totally uncool to be a patriot or believe in America.

Cap faces the same issues as superman, kids today do not like the "boy scout", they think a homicidal maniac like the punisher is cool, which is why some are so eager for bucky to be captain america, giving his history as assasin.

[chilled monkey]

Cap is the epitome of the American dream, going from being too weak to be a soldier to superhero.

he sees America not as it is, but as it could be, and should be, and will fight to make it that way.

Cap, is the "light shining on the hill", to borrow a line from Reagan.

I agree completely.

which is one of the reasons he is not that popular, as it is totally uncool to be a patriot or believe in America.

Cap faces the same issues as superman, kids today do not like the "boy scout", they think a homicidal maniac like the punisher is cool, which is why some are so eager for bucky to be captain america, giving his history as assasin.

Just my opinion, but I cannot understand that at all. To me, "boy scouts" (or girl scouts for that matter) are the greatest. I see nothing 'cool' or likeable about homicidal maniacs at all.

[Alan2099]

Honestly, I have no idea. He's always seemed really lame to me. Well, except for the Ultimate version.

I always thought eh Ultimate version was lame. The guy's comes off as a bad joke about ugly stupid Americans that would rather fight than think.

[jackolover]

I always thought eh Ultimate version was lame. The guy's comes off as a bad joke about ugly stupid Americans that would rather fight than think.

Yeah, the whole Captain America concept is difficult, because he will be a Patriotic symbol. Not many people revel in patriotism, nowadays especially in Australia, where we are so layed back about everything. The US, maybe a bit more. I understand flying the flag is a big thing over there, and a lot of people do that. I don't know whether that translates to patriotism, but if it does, then Cap exemplifies those tendencies. Anthem playing and standing while the song is sung has just came into our sports in the last 20 years in Australia, but it's been in the US game for ever, as I understand. Captain America is that 'flag flying', but he is more. He takes the flag, and he fights with it. Sure, other heroes do the right thing, but Cap is the leader of doing the right thing. If the writers could do that kind of take on Cap, I could come at him a lot better. I'm sure that Cap is looked at in this way, already, but we seem to take him for granted so much, we trivialise 'doing the right thing', when Cap does it, at least I do.

[XPac]

I always thought eh Ultimate version was lame. The guy's comes off as a bad joke about ugly stupid Americans that would rather fight than think.

I prefer 616 Cap too... but in the same breath I think Ultimate Cap needed to be written the way he was because of the type of story and Avengers Millar was writing.

The whole point of making Ultimate versions is to do something different with them. It is fair to say that Ultimate Cap does symbolize some of the things wrong with america, and that's probaby intentional.

Additionally, after seeing how Millar writers 616 Cap, I think this is simply the Cap Millar prefers.

[spidervenom]

simple, he's a true american, except he doesn't go to myspace.

[princesa]

I'm a huge Captain America fan. Basically what makes him great is at the heart of it he's a very good person striving to be a better one. I feel about Cap the way some do about Superman.

[PaidHero]

simple, he's a true american, except he doesn't go to myspace.

LMAO!!!!!!

[PaidHero]

I'm a huge Captain America fan. Basically what makes him great is at the heart of it he's a very good person striving to be a better one. I feel about Cap the way some do about Superman.

Me too. He's the Marvel equivelant to Superman in my opinion.

[Alan2099]

Me too. He's the Marvel equivelant to Superman in my opinion.

Better really. He does what Superman does without being bullet proof or having the ability to fly or whatever.

[Asian_Invasion]

He is one of the quintessential super heroes.

[PaidHero]

Better really. He does what Superman does without being bullet proof or having the ability to fly or whatever.

Yeah and technically(my mistake) Sentry is the Marvel equivallent of Superman. But Cap is better!

[goodolecaps]

I think there are several reasons why Caps one of the best heroes and my favorite. One of the reasons why I think he's great is that he represents America, not just through his clothing, but in the way he acts. An everyman made into something incredible. His values are what blue and red Americans can agree upon. He is sort of like Superman in this regard, an American symbol who fights evil. There's no coincidence he was fighting Red (Russian/Communist) and German enemies, but unlike Superman Captain America is mortal. The death of Captain America can be read in several contexts, and that is only a testament the beauty of the character.

[Funkdmonkey]

I've always wondered how non-American readers view Captain America. I personally don't find him that incredible. While his morals are indeed extraordinary, they so often are a view of wrong and right/black and white, that is loses its appeal. Listening to Cap constantly bark out his perfect ideologies gets tedious to, especially since most of them can't apply correctly the world he and we live in.

I personally find Spider-Man to have better morals, as he always goes the extra mile, always takes personal sacrifices, and places the burdens of others on himself. We usually see how Spider-Man reaches his final conclusion, the thoughts and ideas that go through his mind. For Cap, its usually just "obviously this is the right thing to do", and in a lot of situations, doing the extremely "good" thing is worse than doing the "grey" thing. Of course, this is coming from a Spider-Man fan, and one that doesn't read Cap as extensively, so theres sure to be a touch of bias here :o

However, the reason that Cap is so unappealing to me, just like Batman, is that they constantly do things that completely outrank them. While of course, they are peak human in multiple regards, they shouldn't be able to quickly dispatch some of the stronger opponents they face. A lot of times, when characters like these faces opponents, the opponent acts all amazing that they're facing "HIM", the "legend", and constantly screw up or act out of character.

However, I will admit, the current series is proving to be a good read. Unfortunately, Cap isn't even in it :(



Also, on a somewhat related note, is it ever explained why Cap is such a good strategist other than natural skill and charisma? I understand that he was simply a scrawny teenager given the super-solider formula, served in the war and did so very well, and than got blown into the ice. When the Avengers found him, he was somehow a tactical mastermind. Can anyone shine light on this?

[chilled monkey]

I've always wondered how non-American readers view Captain America.

I'm from the United Kingdom and I think Cap's the greatest. While he is patriotic, he fights for the good of the world and humanity, not just one country. Heck, one time when he was in Japan he said it's "tragic when the essence of Japan is even minimally lost" (due to American culture invading Japan).


However, the reason that Cap is so unappealing to me, just like Batman, is that they constantly do things that completely outrank them. While of course, they are peak human in multiple regards, they shouldn't be able to quickly dispatch some of the stronger opponents they face. A lot of times, when characters like these faces opponents, the opponent acts all amazing that they're facing "HIM", the "legend", and constantly screw up or act out of character.

See, that's one thing I like about Cap. I like that he can beat stronger opponents by using his skills and brains. Plus he has the SSS, so it makes sense that he can do things a 'regular' peak human can't do.

And what's wrong about being awed at the prospect of facing a legend?

Also, on a somewhat related note, is it ever explained why Cap is such a good strategist other than natural skill and charisma? I understand that he was simply a scrawny teenager given the super-solider formula, served in the war and did so very well, and than got blown into the ice. When the Avengers found him, he was somehow a tactical mastermind. Can anyone shine light on this?

First off, Steve is clearly intelligent, which is a quality needed for strategy. Secondly he was given military training, which would include tactical/strategic training. They didn't just give him the SSS and send him out into the field immediately.

[jade_nova]

I've always wondered how non-American readers view Captain America. I personally don't find him that incredible. While his morals are indeed extraordinary, they so often are a view of wrong and right/black and white, that is loses its appeal. Listening to Cap constantly bark out his perfect ideologies gets tedious to, especially since most of them can't apply correctly the world he and we live in.

I personally find Spider-Man to have better morals, as he always goes the extra mile, always takes personal sacrifices, and places the burdens of others on himself. We usually see how Spider-Man reaches his final conclusion, the thoughts and ideas that go through his mind. For Cap, its usually just "obviously this is the right thing to do", and in a lot of situations, doing the extremely "good" thing is worse than doing the "grey" thing. Of course, this is coming from a Spider-Man fan, and one that doesn't read Cap as extensively, so theres sure to be a touch of bias here

However, the reason that Cap is so unappealing to me, just like Batman, is that they constantly do things that completely outrank them. While of course, they are peak human in multiple regards, they shouldn't be able to quickly dispatch some of the stronger opponents they face. A lot of times, when characters like these faces opponents, the opponent acts all amazing that they're facing "HIM", the "legend", and constantly screw up or act out of character.

However, I will admit, the current series is proving to be a good read. Unfortunately, Cap isn't even in it



Also, on a somewhat related note, is it ever explained why Cap is such a good strategist other than natural skill and charisma? I understand that he was simply a scrawny teenager given the super-solider formula, served in the war and did so very well, and than got blown into the ice. When the Avengers found him, he was somehow a tactical mastermind. Can anyone shine light on this?

Originally Posted by Funkdmonkey
I've always wondered how non-American readers view Captain America.

I'm from the United Kingdom and I think Cap's the greatest. While he is patriotic, he fights for the good of the world and humanity, not just one country. Heck, one time when he was in Japan he said it's "tragic when the essence of Japan is even minimally lost" (due to American culture invading Japan).


However, the reason that Cap is so unappealing to me, just like Batman, is that they constantly do things that completely outrank them. While of course, they are peak human in multiple regards, they shouldn't be able to quickly dispatch some of the stronger opponents they face. A lot of times, when characters like these faces opponents, the opponent acts all amazing that they're facing "HIM", the "legend", and constantly screw up or act out of character.

See, that's one thing I like about Cap. I like that he can beat stronger opponents by using his skills and brains. Plus he has the SSS, so it makes sense that he can do things a 'regular' peak human can't do.

And what's wrong about being awed at the prospect of facing a legend?

Also, on a somewhat related note, is it ever explained why Cap is such a good strategist other than natural skill and charisma? I understand that he was simply a scrawny teenager given the super-solider formula, served in the war and did so very well, and than got blown into the ice. When the Avengers found him, he was somehow a tactical mastermind. Can anyone shine light on this?

First off, Steve is clearly intelligent, which is a quality needed for strategy. Secondly he was given military training, which would include tactical/strategic training. They didn't just give him the SSS and send him out into the field immediately.

Did you rewrite that person's post to make it something you would agree with?

[chilled monkey]

Did you rewrite that person's post to make it something you would agree with?

No, I simply quoted them and inserted my responses at relevant points. I put my responses in bold (so you'd know what was mine) and deleted some stuff that I felt was superfluous since my responses didn't directly address it.

I was answering their questions. I did not realise there was any problem, seeing as I've seen plenty of posters use that method when answering.

[SquidSquod]

First off, Steve is clearly intelligent, which is a quality needed for strategy. Secondly he was given military training, which would include tactical/strategic training. They didn't just give him the SSS and send him out into the field immediately.

Military training doesn't make people become scientifically intelligent or supremely invulnerable. That's where Iron Man, Thor, and the rest of the Avengers comes in. I'd like to think Cap as a good manager, alone against powerful opponent he doesn't worth that much. In a soccer match, he's the midfielder - the guy who delivers the ball to those who should dribble the ball, well in terms of classic Avengers that guy is Thor.

[PaidHero]

I'd like to think Cap as a good manager, alone against powerful opponent he doesn't worth that much. In a soccer match, he's the midfielder - the guy who delivers the ball to those who should dribble the ball, well in terms of classic Avengers that guy is Thor.

WHAT! He definitely holds his own against any opponent. He uses his brains way more than brawn to win a match. He put the hurt on Hulk (although I admit he didnt win) and beat the snot out of "meatball" Giant Man Pym.

In the Ultimates.

[XPac]

Military training doesn't make people become scientifically intelligent or supremely invulnerable. That's where Iron Man, Thor, and the rest of the Avengers comes in. I'd like to think Cap as a good manager, alone against powerful opponent he doesn't worth that much. In a soccer match, he's the midfielder - the guy who delivers the ball to those who should dribble the ball, well in terms of classic Avengers that guy is Thor.

In an Avengers title it's true that Cap typically takes the position of field leader, and aganist the higher end threats will often have the heavy hitters like Thor do the big stuff.

But Cap see's plenty of action in his own book, where he often has no one to pass the ball to. Cap is no stranger to tackling even high end threats without Thor around, so he's more than a manager.

[PatchMadripoor]

Steve Rogers is a HIGHLY trained individual, trained by the very best the free world at the time had to offer. Besides being pretty bright Cap has always had a good natural (but not supernatural) sense right and wrong, and the correct course of action, be it from experience or a strong sense of intuition. Best part is that he doesn't go crazy under all the stress he puts himself under, or broken where lesser heroes have.

[jackolover]

Also, on a somewhat related note, is it ever explained why Cap is such a good strategist other than natural skill and charisma? I understand that he was simply a scrawny teenager given the super-solider formula, served in the war and did so very well, and than got blown into the ice. When the Avengers found him, he was somehow a tactical mastermind. Can anyone shine light on this?

That is a difficult question, because Cap became a legend before most of us were born. I've read some of the 1940's adventures of Cap and Bucky, and they are surprisingly graphic and fast-paced. Cap made a LOT of fast decisions, on the run, and honed his decision-making ethics and morality, during those days. Cap wasn't as squeeky-clean in the 1940's as Stan Lee made him out on his return to the present. I would add that Cap had a fairly healthy, strong, and lively disrespect for Nazis and Japanese, that was probably part of the propaganda campaign by the comics industry, and was thrust upon his character, at that time.

But all through those 1940's stories, Cap built up an appreciation for the fighting role and tactics, to the point that he could command troops on the ground, and have an appreciation for the thrust of the war. Nobody in modern times, like the Avengers and the FF, has had to deal with the Total War that was WW II,. Nobody comes close to the 3 years of active service in the bones of Steve Rogers, except of coarse, Bucky Barnes. When the Avengers eventually found Steve Rogers, and Wasp recognised the threads of Caps uniform, the awe with which even these heroes were struck, was as by a legend. Cap is like a Punisher, who is perpetually at war, and war-ready at all times. People like Spiderman and Iron Man and Henry Pym, and Bruce Banner, (not Reed Richards and Ben Grimm, who do have combat experience), have no clue what it takes to command on the ground troops in a Total War, because it is almost unimaginable.

[SquidSquod]

WHAT! He definitely holds his own against any opponent. He uses his brains way more than brawn to win a match. He put the hurt on Hulk (although I admit he didnt win) and beat the snot out of "meatball" Giant Man Pym.

In the Ultimates.

That's in the Ultimates. Ultimates Hulk is pansy and sort of like a mini-monster.

[SquidSquod]

But Cap see's plenty of action in his own book, where he often has no one to pass the ball to. Cap is no stranger to tackling even high end threats without Thor around, so he's more than a manager.

Yeah then when it comes to 70-ton level opponents, he'd be having a hard time handling that. I think more recent Avengers shown that like in NA 1, he got hurled up 10m high by an escaping Supervillain.

Thor of course is a one "god" army. He doesn't need an Avenger team to help him. With Asgardian + Ragnarok experience behind, one might wonder he needs Avengers to tell him what to do. He's as good as any team field commander with the Asgardians.

[Slaymaster]

Cap is the man because he has morals, values, ethics, principles, standards... and a shield that can't be broken short of Eternity taking a whack at him. (the second part was a joke, though it is nearly indestructible)

Truth, liberty, justice, happiness... Cap is the ultimate champion of America and its people (even when 'the people'/'mob' are too stupid to know it.) He will fight to the death if need be, quitting isn't in his vocabulary. He's human, can make mistakes (though I think he shouldn't have stood down at the end of the Civil War, he was right to fight it), but still the best man living.

I've tried to think of a replacement for Steve Rogers... haven't come up with anyone. Good luck to Brubaker.