Hyper-Iron Man : The downfall of Tony Stark?

[jackolover]

[ This is not a I-hate-Tony Stark, thread, or, this is not an attempt to justify Tony Starks behaviour in Civil War. This is just an attempt to state Starks condition in a manner outlined by the books]

There was a deliberate effort to take the character of Stark and use it as a focal point, or springboard, if you will.

After the confused status of the Marvel Universe, post-House of M, the Secret War was begun, but Iron Man wasn't called on by Nick Fury to take part in it. Why was that?

Then, later, when Nick Fury found out about Registration, Nick Fury handed the file to Tony Stark. Why not Cap?

Once the seed had been sewn about registration, this then led to New Avengers : Illuminati.

Most of the time, during New Avengers, Stark had nothing to do, except come on a call out, now and then. Stark was idle, for the most part. Extremis and Execute Program occurred during these lapses. We saw 2 incidents, here, that foretold the Extremis/Stark persona.

One : The beheading of the first Extremis candidate.
Two : The destruction of an Air France Jet, with all passengers aboard, while Stark was hot-wired by a teenager.

Stark may think he is in control of his new, nanotech body, (Maya programmed), but post -CW, even Ultron took control of him, or more likely, absorbed him.

Iron Man is not a simple man-in-a-suit, anymore. He is a walking, talking, LMD cyborg. The absorption of Stark by Ultron was an indicator of just how out-of-control the Extremis/Stark psychology is. Why Lenny Samson can't get at the problem, is that Maya, (who programs Tony's nanotech), isn't there to advise Lenny of just what it is inside Tony. Tony's invincible, and at the same time, vulnerable to any Tech based attack. And who knows if Stark isn't in the same boat as Peter Parker, during the Black Suit-symbiote era. Parker was almost taken over by that thing.

Stark can consciously behave like Stark, but his day to day decision-making is hindered by the almost drug-like, dependance high, he gets, from Extremis keeping his body alive and awake. No sickness. No injuries, that aren't fixed, straight away. No wonder he never gets out of his suit.

What we have today, is the flickering personality of Tony Stark, on the view screen of Extremis. It was in this condition that we find Marvel taking Stark and using him as the star of New Marvel. In every storyline, Tony Stark appears, making the big save, and being the top man. I wonder when that theme will change?

[bulbasteve]

Your theories really aren't based on the books though like you claim. There are some real holes in this, I mean first of all Execute Program was because of what Yinsen implanted in him, it was your normal old mind control.

You didn't really post any examples of how Tony himself is "vulnerable to any Tech based attack", the fact is most of the tech attacks against him recently have just been armor based like the Stark Employee during CW, that was just shutting the armor down, not somehow shutting down his body.

Of course this whole drug like high talk is just totally not based in any book. Nor is no injury or sickness correct, heck the end of Execute Program has him in a hospital as well as WWH Aftersmash where he was warned about going into the armor with all of his injuries. It seems from the evidence that Tony's threat to Wolverine about a healing factor fight was mostly hot air since he sure takes his time healing. And the only reference to him not getting sick is saying he is theoretically immune to cancer...that is hardly saying he won't get a cold!

And since the Ultron stuff still isn't over we should probably save any theorizing.

And really in the end if anything Execute Program was a story about how everyone was WRONG that Extremis was messing with him, that Tony is more than able to handle it on a psychological level.

[jackolover]

Of course this whole drug like high talk is just totally not based in any book. Nor is no injury or sickness correct, heck the end of Execute Program has him in a hospital as well as WWH Aftersmash where he was warned about going into the armor with all of his injuries. It seems from the evidence that Tony's threat to Wolverine about a healing factor fight was mostly hot air since he sure takes his time healing. And the only reference to him not getting sick is saying he is theoretically immune to cancer...that is hardly saying he won't get a cold!.

It's semantics how Stark was controlled, but the fact is he was. And he does get controlled, in examples from the books you gave. I'm not sure I believe he can't be controlled in the future, either. Everything points to Stark having this Tech problem, because even The Vision could have access to him, or Machine Man. The reason I brought up Nick Fury not getting Tony involved in Secret War, was to illustrate that even Fury wouldn't go into a Tech based operation with Tony displaying his vulnerability to manipulation.

And as for the healing abilities of Extremis, the whole reason he was rushed into taking it WAS because the first extremist host broke him so bad, he could only survive if Extremis repaired him, so there's your healing right there. And if Extremis repaires broken bones, it repaires sickness and infection. That is the high that Tony is always on. He never gets sick, he self-repairs, so yes, these are examples from the books.



And really in the end if anything Execute Program was a story about how everyone was WRONG that Extremis was messing with him, that Tony is more than able to handle it on a psychological level.

Let me get this straight. You're saying a man who was taken over by Yinsins son, didn't know he was doing all these kills, and wasn't sure he wasn't guilty for all the deaths he was used for, is proving he was able to handle it on a psychological level? I'm more inclined to believe the opposite.

[Exo]

We don't know how the extremis is affecting Tony's mind, though bits and pieces are thrown here and there in the knaufs run on Iron Man. But the story hasn't been told yet.

Stark may think he is in control of his new, nanotech body, (Maya programmed)

Actually, Tony rewrote parts of the extremis program so that he may be interfaced with his armor on a biological level. In many ways, his extremis is very different to that of Mayas.

but post -CW, even Ultron took control of him, or more likely, absorbed him.

That's the only time the armor has been successfully hacked from the outside. And only because Tony tried to access (corrupt) weather satellites and had the Ultron program uploaded into his system. But most of the time it's due to pre-existing shutdown codes programmed into the armor and not because of the extremis. Although the two are working in union inside and outside of Tony, there's a distinct difference between armor and extremis.

Two : The destruction of an Air France Jet, with all passengers aboard, while Stark was hot-wired by a teenager.

IIRC, that had absolutely nothing to do with extremis or the armor. The mind-controlling device, that was used in execute program, was surgically transplanted into Tony's brain many years ago.

Tony's invincible, and at the same time, vulnerable to any Tech based attack.

I'd argue that Tony has always been vulnerable to tech based attacks. I'd also argue that due to him being forever "intimately" interfaced with his armor (and all kinds of technology) he's actually more secure to hacking than he was pre-extremis.

Everything points to Stark having this Tech problem, because even The Vision could have access to him

Post-extremis? The Vision didn't actually hack his armor, he compromised it by phasing his hand through Tony's chest. And he did so by sneaking in from the behind.

[bulbasteve]

It's semantics how Stark was controlled, but the fact is he was.

Unless Yinsen was secretly Dr. Strange and could tell that in the future that 20 years from now Tony would have Extremis then I think it is safe to say it is not semantics. It was implanted in his head!

And he does get controlled, in examples from the books you gave.

Shutting down armor =/= getting controlled.

I'm not sure I believe he can't be controlled in the future, either. Everything points to Stark having this Tech problem, because even The Vision could have access to him, or Machine Man.

How is wild speculation "outlined by the books"?

The reason I brought up Nick Fury not getting Tony involved in Secret War, was to illustrate that even Fury wouldn't go into a Tech based operation with Tony displaying his vulnerability to manipulation.

I don't remember him saying this.

And as for the healing abilities of Extremis, the whole reason he was rushed into taking it WAS because the first extremist host broke him so bad, he could only survive if Extremis repaired him, so there's your healing right there. And if Extremis repaires broken bones, it repaires sickness and infection. That is the high that Tony is always on. He never gets sick, he self-repairs, so yes, these are examples from the books.

He was wearing casts in Aftersmash! Extremis doesn't make you a shapeshifter or something, you need an outside catalyst for it to change your body. Heck in every example we have seen anything like this happen it was from an outside source (weather satellites possibly with something else being sent to Tony, Extremis tank, giant gooy Extremis virus).

Heck if this was a high he was always on why would he almost have started drinking again, again you need ACTUAL examples from the books to say that it comes from the books.

Let me get this straight. You're saying a man who was taken over by Yinsins son, didn't know he was doing all these kills, and wasn't sure he wasn't guilty for all the deaths he was used for, is proving he was able to handle it on a psychological level? I'm more inclined to believe the opposite.

The entirety of the leadup to the revelation had his friends and the NA say that it must be extremis controlling him. And guess what, tony was RIGHT, it wasn't extremis he is able to handle extremis amazingly well.

[jackolover]

Unless Yinsen was secretly Dr. Strange and could tell that in the future that 20 years from now Tony would have Extremis then I think it is safe to say it is not semantics. It was implanted in his head!.




IIRC, that had absolutely nothing to do with extremis or the armor. The mind-controlling device, that was used in execute program, was surgically transplanted into Tony's brain many years ago.


You both are right, there. It doesn't look like Extremis was part of that storyline. Also, it does look like extremis can't hunt and dissolve any foreign bodies, like the implant in Tony's head, either.


I don't remember him saying this..

Your memory doesn't fail you. Fury never said anything about Tony. Fury just never used him, and Tony was part of the New Avengers. In fact, it was the only other time, since NA #1, that Bendis used Daredevil in a New Avengers book.





He was wearing casts in Aftersmash! Extremis doesn't make you a shapeshifter or something, you need an outside catalyst for it to change your body. Heck in every example we have seen anything like this happen it was from an outside source (weather satellites possibly with something else being sent to Tony, Extremis tank, giant gooy Extremis virus). .

But you do remember why Tony insisted on implanting Extremis don't you. Maya refused to do it, but Tony got it done anyway. I couldn't see it repair bones, though it did repair organs. Okay, Tony had casts in Aftersmash, but did you see him leap up out of bed, and armour up, when a crisis needed his attention? Who can jump out of bed with casts? Extremis may not be Wolverine speed healing, but it can heal.

Heck if this was a high he was always on, why would he almost have started drinking again, again you need ACTUAL examples from the books to say that it comes from the books.


You made me go to the books, now. So, look up Iron Man #7. Tony tecnically kills a guy, and brings him back to life. Cap is disgusted with Tony for taking that kind of reckless risk with another person. This is another example of Tonys recklessness, on top of the killing of Mullen, in IM #6. That kind of brash recklessnes is appaent in people who are on drug highs. I never saw Iron Man behave like this before. (Except when he was in that Avengers Crossing mindwarp from Kang).





The entirety of the leadup to the revelation had his friends and the NA say that it must be extremis controlling him. And guess what, Tony was RIGHT, it wasn't extremis. He is able to handle extremis amazingly well.

I'm not disputing he can handle Extremis amazingly well. I'm sugesting that the day might come, when Tony Stark is rehashed by Extremis into some walking Talking LMD of Tony, overbrash, and maybe not in control anymore. Right now, I have no dispute Tony is still in control. Taking Logan, his healing factor slowly destroyed all his previous memories. It took HoM to restore it all. There is no reason why Extremis won't do the same to Tony, although there will be some argument that says it won't change Tony, like it didn't change Logan.

[jackolover]

Actually, Tony rewrote parts of the extremis program so that he may be interfaced with his armor on a biological level. In many ways, his extremis is very different to that of Mayas.

Yes, there are parts of Extremis Tony rewrote, and did it on the run, and with no chance to double check it. There was the risk, with one computation error, that Tony might end up dead, but even Maya was surprised Tony awake after only 24 hours being out cold. (That covering Tony was in looked a lot like the 'Other' cocoon Peter Parker was in ). There is a lot of story potential there with anything Extremis, in regard to something going wrong.


I'd argue that Tony has always been vulnerable to tech based attacks. I'd also argue that due to him being forever "intimately" interfaced with his armor (and all kinds of technology) he's actually more secure to hacking than he was pre-extremis..

Then Tony really needs to up-grade again, and make that not an option. Maybe he should go to Victor Von Doom, and ask him how he isolates his armour from tech attack, while everything around Doom is shutdown.



Post-extremis? The Vision didn't actually hack his armor, he compromised it by phasing his hand through Tony's chest. And he did so by sneaking in from the behind.

Their needs to be some serious up-grades to the armour for his warning systems to detect approaching Tech. You'd think after all these years Tony would have some way to avoid Visions attack. Hell, he cloned Thor, and downloaded all Caps fighting moves. Why couldn't he figure out a way to overcome the Vision, if he's such a big futurist?

[bulbasteve]

Why couldn't he figure out a way to overcome the Vision, if he's such a big futurist?

Please don't forget this:

This is not a I-hate-Tony Stark, thread

Your memory doesn't fail you. Fury never said anything about Tony. Fury just never used him, and Tony was part of the New Avengers. In fact, it was the only other time, since NA #1, that Bendis used Daredevil in a New Avengers book.

Which says nothing about Fury's process for picking people. Heck if anything as I recall we know he picked who he picked cause they were pretty much pushovers and would do what he says as is evidenced by the comments in their profiles in the handbook. So it seems most likely that Tony is just too darn independent minded to be on that team.

But you do remember why Tony insisted on implanting Extremis don't you. Maya refused to do it, but Tony got it done anyway. I couldn't see it repair bones, though it did repair organs. Okay, Tony had casts in Aftersmash, but did you see him leap up out of bed, and armour up, when a crisis needed his attention? Who can jump out of bed with casts? Extremis may not be Wolverine speed healing, but it can heal.

He wasn't in a normal hospital, he had SHIELD level tech being used on him. Hell he is shown after simply having his heart stopped in Execute Program to be in a hospital, so organ repair doesn't seem to be part of it either. Regardless, with how sloooooooooooow this healing factor must be it is impossible to come to the conclusions that you came to in your first post.

You made me go to the books, now. So, look up Iron Man #7. Tony tecnically kills a guy, and brings him back to life. Cap is disgusted with Tony for taking that kind of reckless risk with another person. This is another example of Tonys recklessness, on top of the killing of Mullen, in IM #6. That kind of brash recklessnes is appaent in people who are on drug highs. I never saw Iron Man behave like this before. (Except when he was in that Avengers Crossing mindwarp from Kang).

You still have not given me one example where anything even close to describing a drug high was used. You are taking a giant leap from being "reckless" (which he wasn't anyway) to saying he is on a drug high. You can't say this stuff is based on the books if you are making such HUGE leaps.

I'm not disputing he can handle Extremis amazingly well. I'm sugesting that the day might come, when Tony Stark is rehashed by Extremis into some walking Talking LMD of Tony, overbrash, and maybe not in control anymore. Right now, I have no dispute Tony is still in control. Taking Logan, his healing factor slowly destroyed all his previous memories. It took HoM to restore it all. There is no reason why Extremis won't do the same to Tony, although there will be some argument that says it won't change Tony, like it didn't change Logan.

Extremis is not some living organism in him. It was something that was used to recode/remake his body, that is all it is really until we hear otherwise.

[jackolover]

Please don't forget this:.

Oops. Forgot myself, for a minute.




Which says nothing about Fury's process for picking people. Heck if anything as I recall we know he picked who he picked cause they were pretty much pushovers and would do what he says as is evidenced by the comments in their profiles in the handbook. So it seems most likely that Tony is just too darn independent minded to be on that team..

That's another possibility. Tony being too smart for Fury, and, Tony being vulnerable being a Tech based hero.



He wasn't in a normal hospital, he had SHIELD level tech being used on him. Hell he is shown after simply having his heart stopped in Execute Program to be in a hospital, so organ repair doesn't seem to be part of it either. Regardless, with how sloooooooooooow this healing factor must be it is impossible to come to the conclusions that you came to in your first post..

Well, impossible? But there does not seem to be anything actually pointing to healing. I'm even a bit surprised Tony is in casts, after WWH.

Extremis makes the body into an open wound, then replaces the existing organs altogether, with better ones. So after Stark gets injured, post-Extremis, there is no more activity from the nanotech filaments? We know an Extremis host can be killed, because Stark blew Mullens head off, and that couldn't be repaired. But what about non-lethal injuries? The books don't specifically make that part clear.



You still have not given me one example where anything even close to describing a drug high was used. You are taking a giant leap from being "reckless" (which he wasn't anyway) to saying he is on a drug high. You can't say this stuff is based on the books if you are making such HUGE leaps..

Maybe not so HUGE, but, yes, leaps. Stark, post-Extremis, was displaying a pretty strong amount of confidence, which may have been healthy confidence, like some sportsman at the peak of his condition, and feeling sweet. And I may be making a leap saying Tony is experiencing drug-like highs, but lets look at the end result of the Extremis process on a human body, and see if this is still a human. I don't think Stark is human anymore. Extremis rebuilt him from the ground up, feeding him nutrients, and metals, as he reprogrammed Mayas basic version to his individual design. There is a clear possibility Stark can be classified as a mutant, or, an Inhuman that's just gone through the Terrigon Mists. His framework is clearly non-human.



Extremis is not some living organism in him. It was something that was used to recode/remake his body, that is all it is really until we hear otherwise.

That it is.

[bulbasteve]

That's another possibility. Tony being too smart for Fury, and, Tony being vulnerable being a Tech based hero.

These aren't possibilites. The handbook that was released with Secret War also listed the rejects for the mission. For Tony it was having his armor shut down (not controlled as you claimed, mind you) as well because he "asks too many questions". Of course it should be noted that this was all pre-extremis so what this has nothing to do with this topic anyway. Of course if you say it was post-extremis than Fury's note about being a normal human under the armor would hurt you other claims :p

Extremis makes the body into an open wound, then replaces the existing organs altogether, with better ones. So after Stark gets injured, post-Extremis, there is no more activity from the nanotech filaments? We know an Extremis host can be killed, because Stark blew Mullens head off, and that couldn't be repaired. But what about non-lethal injuries? The books don't specifically make that part clear.

What the nanotech did was rewrite his genetic code, his body was the one that actually did the work in repairing him. And really Stark did very little with it compared to the crazy terrorists with literal bio weapons and Stark sure doesn't show any sign of being as powerful as Mullen was without his armor on. If anything he seems to have wrote his own extremis code to stop the pitfalls that guys like Mullen fell into from being a real superhuman.

Maybe not so HUGE, but, yes, leaps. Stark, post-Extremis, was displaying a pretty strong amount of confidence, which may have been healthy confidence, like some sportsman at the peak of his condition, and feeling sweet. And I may be making a leap saying Tony is experiencing drug-like highs, but lets look at the end result of the Extremis process on a human body, and see if this is still a human. I don't think Stark is human anymore. Extremis rebuilt him from the ground up, feeding him nutrients, and metals, as he reprogrammed Mayas basic version to his individual design. There is a clear possibility Stark can be classified as a mutant, or, an Inhuman that's just gone through the Terrigon Mists. His framework is clearly non-human.

So non-humans now have constant drug highs? Stark has always been more than a little arrogant in his abilities, even more so now that he actually KNOWS he could kill the guy and bring him back to life. Calling that a high is particularly silly since this is a guy who is sober and in the CW issue was about to take a drink. Heck the fact that unlike Rogers, Stark can actually still get drunk pretty well points out the fact that his body wasn't changed all that much beyond the integration with his armor.

[jackolover]

These aren't possibilites. The handbook that was released with Secret War also listed the rejects for the mission. For Tony it was having his armor shut down (not controlled as you claimed, mind you) as well because he "asks too many questions". Of course it should be noted that this was all pre-extremis so what this has nothing to do with this topic anyway. Of course if you say it was post-extremis than Fury's note about being a normal human under the armor would hurt you other claims :p.

I put Extremis before New Avengers #1, and I put Secret War just after New Avengers #10. Fury just may not realise just how changed Starks body is, unless he got detailed reports about the incident.



What the nanotech did was rewrite his genetic code, his body was the one that actually did the work in repairing him. And really Stark did very little with it compared to the crazy terrorists with literal bio weapons and Stark sure doesn't show any sign of being as powerful as Mullen was without his armor on. If anything he seems to have wrote his own extremis code to stop the pitfalls that guys like Mullen fell into from being a real superhuman. .

It's how I stated it. His body is turned to mash, and the Extremis remakes his organs. I didn't see it stated that his own body repairs itself. Yes, Stark is less powerful than Mullens, when you recall the fight he had with Cap in CW:Casualties, where he took off his armor. But in armor, Stark took care of Mullens a lot better than he did pre-Extremis, and according to Tony, the only difference is that Extremis was giving him more speed in reaction time, because his conventional armor was slow and cumbersome.





So non-humans now have constant drug highs? Stark has always been more than a little arrogant in his abilities, even more so now that he actually KNOWS he could kill the guy and bring him back to life. Calling that a high is particularly silly since this is a guy who is sober and in the CW issue was about to take a drink. Heck the fact that unlike Rogers, Stark can actually still get drunk pretty well points out the fact that his body wasn't changed all that much beyond the integration with his armor.

I didn't mention non-humans having constant drug highs. That's you making a leap. And as for Stark being a little arrogant, this version of Stark seems a bit surprising even for Cap, let alone the people reading about Stark. But it has cleared up the point about Starks actual abilities being way much lower than I thought. I'm still not convinced that Tony isn't a changed man post-Extremis.

[Exo]

Then Tony really needs to up-grade again, and make that not an option. Maybe he should go to Victor Von Doom, and ask him how he isolates his armour from tech attack, while everything around Doom is shutdown.

I was going to propose that he have new armor built from the ground up and keep the shutdown codes to himself next time.

Their needs to be some serious up-grades to the armour for his warning systems to detect approaching Tech.

Tony had an artificial spider-sense in a civil war tie-in but, much like Spidermans "new" powers, it was a cool new feature never brought up again in the books.

[bulbasteve]

I put Extremis before New Avengers #1, and I put Secret War just after New Avengers #10. Fury just may not realise just how changed Starks body is, unless he got detailed reports about the incident.

Seeing as Maya was arrested after it and everyone knew about it when Execute Program came around. So that seems to go more in line with confirmation that Fury considers him a normal human under the armor.

It's how I stated it. His body is turned to mash, and the Extremis remakes his organs. I didn't see it stated that his own body repairs itself. Yes, Stark is less powerful than Mullens, when you recall the fight he had with Cap in CW:Casualties, where he took off his armor. But in armor, Stark took care of Mullens a lot better than he did pre-Extremis, and according to Tony, the only difference is that Extremis was giving him more speed in reaction time, because his conventional armor was slow and cumbersome.

"No sickness. No injuries, that aren't fixed, straight away. No wonder he never gets out of his suit." If you didn't see it stated in the books, why did you make that point? :p

I didn't mention non-humans having constant drug highs. That's you making a leap. And as for Stark being a little arrogant, this version of Stark seems a bit surprising even for Cap, let alone the people reading about Stark.

"Stark can consciously behave like Stark, but his day to day decision-making is hindered by the almost drug-like, dependance high, he gets, from Extremis keeping his body alive and awake. No sickness. No injuries, that aren't fixed, straight away."

So anyone who is either invulnerable to some extent or has a healing factor or immune to sickness is somehow addicted to it (which is most superhumans). Which there is just as little proof to anyone else than it is to Tony. Since afterall if this is a drug-like high would be a symptom of the power itself and not the individual, and of course we see not just Tony still gets addicted to other things! If say Ms. Marvel is always on a high cause she can't get a paper cut, why does she booze it up too?

But it has cleared up the point about Starks actual abilities being way much lower than I thought. I'm still not convinced that Tony isn't a changed man post-Extremis.

Don't forget the point of the topic: "an attempt to state Starks condition in a manner outlined by the books". If you don't have anything that is based on the book to support it then why do you still think that say Tony is on a constant drug high and is a "walking talking lmd"? If you were to edit the original post taking away everything that has been proven wrong or changed significantly I don't think there would be a post left :p

[jackolover]

"No sickness. No injuries, that aren't fixed, straight away. No wonder he never gets out of his suit." If you didn't see it stated in the books, why did you make that point? :p

Maybe it's because Tony has a new hyper-resistance. I hadn't realised it before, but it seems that it mostly occurs while he's in the suit. By the way, have you noticed (Spoiler warning for What If? Civil War)


They are using Tony's death from Extremis in the What If? as a reason for why Cap win the war. I saw it on one of the links on this board about upcoming books, and that was one of them.



"Stark can consciously behave like Stark, but his day to day decision-making is hindered by the almost drug-like, dependance high, he gets, from Extremis keeping his body alive and awake. No sickness. No injuries, that aren't fixed, straight away."

So anyone who is either invulnerable to some extent or has a healing factor or immune to sickness is somehow addicted to it (which is most superhumans). Which there is just as little proof to anyone else than it is to Tony. Since after all if this is a drug-like high would be a symptom of the power itself and not the individual, and of course we see not just Tony still gets addicted to other things! If say Ms. Marvel is always on a high cause she can't get a paper cut, why does she booze it up too?

I'm not sure if all individuals behave the same way, or why alcoholics like Stark and Danvers still crave after becoming invulnerable. It may be character flaws, as distinct from immortality hyperventalation. I've never gone in that direction before. You can be Dormamu, and be drunk with limitless power, and still have addictions. The drug-like high of immortality and the the addictions may be mutually exclusive. I haven't really thought about it.





Don't forget the point of the topic: "an attempt to state Starks condition in a manner outlined by the books". If you don't have anything that is based on the book to support it then why do you still think that say Tony is on a constant drug high and is a "walking talking lmd"? If you were to edit the original post taking away everything that has been proven wrong or changed significantly I don't think there would be a post left :p

Don't be a wise guy.:p Yes, there seems to be only tatters left, but I will persist.

[jackolover]

Tony had an artificial spider-sense in a civil war tie-in but, much like Spidermans "new" powers, it was a cool new feature never brought up again in the books.

I remember that, and it was conveniently forgotten at the time Vision attacked Tony in CW #7. WHERE WERE YOU TOM BREVOORT?