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NatGertler
12-12-2007, 01:29 PM
The trick with the "electability" issue is that the nominees are not going to be running against player unknown. I've heard explanations of why every major player in this election cannot be elected... and yet one of them will be. After the nominations, there are likely to be just two candidates seriously in play, and while America may not feel ready for either a black or a Mormon, a woman or a cross-dresser, a guy who sees aliens or a guy who feels personally chosen by the Giant Invisible Guy, they will end up choosing one or the other.

And on the topic of the election: I saw a blog post the other day referring to the other person of color running for President this time, and it turned out to mean some lady who is trying to get on the ballot under the Green Party. Somewhere, Alan Keyes is sobbing loudly...

Paul McEnery
12-12-2007, 02:09 PM
It makes you puke, it surely does. The idea that so many Americans would sooner vote for a fascist or a religious nutcase than woman or a black man is just absolutely horrifying.

Steven Grant
12-12-2007, 07:11 PM
One thing I forgot to mention was in reference to the black woman who said she felt blacks should not vote for someone due to the color of his/her skin.

Neither should whites, but the presumption seems to be across the board (except maybe in the Obama campaign offices) that whites are perfectly willing to vote for someone on the basis of their skin color, and, if faced with Obama as a choice, will. When what should be emphasized over and over and over and over, because it's true, that skin color is neither a qualification nor disqualification for public office of any kind and is an utterly irrelevant non-criterion.

- Grant

FunkyGreenJerusalem
12-12-2007, 10:33 PM
It makes you puke, it surely does. The idea that so many Americans would sooner vote for a fascist or a religious nutcase than woman or a black man is just absolutely horrifying.

If you want really disgusting, you should have seen the delightful comment left on a You Tube video of a trailer for 'The Times Of Harvey Milk', about the first openly Gay man elected to public office and his consequent assassination, that I cut.
Not what I was expecting to see before my first coffee at work that day.
Almost left it for the next time someone on the boards complains about the world being too PC.

Joe Franklin
12-12-2007, 10:58 PM
It makes you puke, it surely does. The idea that so many Americans would sooner vote for a fascist or a religious nutcase than woman or a black man is just absolutely horrifying.

But the black man running is also a religious nutcase, and the woman is just a nutcase without religion.

Every politician has skeletons in their closet, and some form of nutcase behavior patterns. It goes with the territory I'm affraid.:(

FunkyGreenJerusalem
12-12-2007, 11:04 PM
But the black man running is also a religious nutcase, and the woman is just a nutcase without religion.


How is Obama a religious nutcase?

Joe Franklin
12-12-2007, 11:28 PM
How is Obama a religious nutcase?

He's a Muslim. He has religion.

The Ray
12-13-2007, 05:28 AM
He's a Muslim. He has religion.

So, having a religion automatically makes you a nutcase?

Agent Helix
12-13-2007, 06:24 AM
He's a Muslim.

Really? You might want to let him know, since he seems unaware.

Brenz
12-13-2007, 08:22 AM
I don't know about America, but I'm ready for some "Huckabee waffles." They sound delicious!

However, it'd be great to see Obama get elected if he's going to follow through on his campaign of change and promise. I'd like to go back to an America whose misdeeds are few, necessary and missteps, rather than in the interests of the elite few against the best interests of the country itself.

And as long as I'm wishing, let's swab 9/10ths of the Congressional decks with new blood, and I would like peace on Earth and a pony and a steak dinner.

Steven Grant
12-13-2007, 06:09 PM
He's a Muslim. He has religion.

Bullshit he's a Muslim. (Do you get all your "facts" from Karl Rove and Fox News?) He's a Christian, of the United Church Of Christ.

I hear he has a black baby, though.

(That's a joke, son.)

- Grant

Steven Grant
12-13-2007, 06:10 PM
And as long as I'm wishing, let's swab 9/10ths of the Congressional decks with new blood, and I would like peace on Earth and a pony and a steak dinner.

Which tenth of the Congressional decks would you like to keep?

- Grant

Joe Franklin
12-13-2007, 08:10 PM
Really? You might want to let him know, since he seems unaware.

Barack's father Barack Hussein Obama was a radical muslim who divorces Barack Jr's mother when he was only 2 years old. Barack's Muslim step father Lolo Soetoro educated Barack by having him attend a Wahabbi school in Jakarta. Barack was raised a muslim, and attended a muslim school. Obviously in America's current state of the threat of terrorism, it would not be smart for any candidate to claim Islam as their religion of choice. So Barack joined the Uninted Church Of Christ as a smoke screen for his muslim religious beliefs. Not knocking the guy, just saying that he is a muslim, not a christian.:)

mattx110
12-13-2007, 08:19 PM
So, having a religion automatically makes you a nutcase?
I think it would be in bad taste to answer this, but i'm enough of a troublemaker to post suggestively in hopes of starting something anyway.:D

Joe Franklin
12-13-2007, 08:22 PM
So, having a religion automatically makes you a nutcase?

Only if you are a hard core christian it seems. Christians who stand by Biblical moral codes, are the only religious politicians who get labeled as nutcases. Good morals are for nutcases afterall.;)

sgt pepper
12-13-2007, 08:35 PM
Oh my. Poor Joe Franklin. You poor poor persecuted man. How do you stand it? The injustice of it all.

And of course we all know and agree that Biblical moral codes=good morals. Shame on all those people who call you and your kind nutcases everyday. It's a wonder you can even go on. You've got strength, brother, so keep fighting the good fight.

mattx110
12-13-2007, 08:38 PM
"Yea... those christians need to stop being so persecuted"

-signed Matthew Atheistjewerson

it's not the morals that i don't like it's the denial of dinosaurs.

I mean... who the hell goes "that's a trick by the devil... and so is carbon dating"?

oh yea... harcore christians.

mattx110
12-13-2007, 08:38 PM
In retrospect. Yes, there are problems I have with the morals too.

Joe Franklin
12-13-2007, 08:40 PM
Oh my. Poor Joe Franklin. You poor poor persecuted man. How do you stand it? The injustice of it all.

And of course we all know and agree that Biblical moral codes=good morals. Shame on all those people who call you and your kind nutcases everyday. It's a wonder you can even go on. You've got strength, brother, so keep fighting the good fight.

Never said I had christian moral codes, just that the politicians who do, are the ones labeled as nutcases is all.

Paul McEnery
12-13-2007, 09:51 PM
Never said I had christian moral codes, just that the politicians who do, are the ones labeled as nutcases is all.

And oh look, more bullshit.

And I think it's clear what kind of Christian you are from the way you talk. The nutcase kind who thinks Catholics aren't Christians.

Or UCC, apparently.

Steven Grant
12-13-2007, 10:34 PM
Not knocking the guy, just saying that he is a muslim, not a christian.:)

So why do you think not? Even if all that history were gospel truth rather than frothing spin on overdrive, is it so hard to believe that Obama might reject his "Muslim upbringing," establish "a personal relationship with Christ" in his 20s (as stated in his official bioblurb) and genuinely convert to Christianity or, at least, the relatively liberal version preached by the United Church Of Christ? Do you have any specific reason to believe that the UCC is just a beard for him?

Or are you suggesting, by logical extension, that I'm not really an atheist because my parents were Catholic and I was raised Catholic, so I must only be pretending to be an atheist?

- Grant

Steven Grant
12-13-2007, 10:40 PM
Never said I had christian moral codes, just that the politicians who do, are the ones labeled as nutcases is all.

You misunderstand. They're not labeled nutcases because they're Christian. They're labeled nutcases because they're nutcases. And it's because they're nutcases that they're attracted to weird and twisted forms of Christianity, which somehow they almost always nonetheless manage to interpret even weirder and twistier. That's not the same thing as saying, nor even implying, all Christians are nutcases, nor all variations of Christianity insane.

- Grant

mattx110
12-13-2007, 10:55 PM
So why do you think not? Even if all that history were gospel truth rather than frothing spin on overdrive, is it so hard to believe that Obama might reject his "Muslim upbringing," establish "a personal relationship with Christ" in his 20s (as stated in his official bioblurb) and genuinely convert to Christianity or, at least, the relatively liberal version preached by the United Church Of Christ? Do you have any specific reason to believe that the UCC is just a beard for him?

Or are you suggesting, by logical extension, that I'm not really an atheist because my parents were Catholic and I was raised Catholic, so I must only be pretending to be an atheist?

- Grant
2 "points"*.
1. Using the term "beard" to represent a non-muslim religion... might be ironic, is at least a bit funny.
2. Being raised catholic is the number 1 cause of atheism. Being raised Muslim is the number 1 cause of being Muslim. With just these two figures, there is no logical extension. It just doesn't exist. I don't think applying logical analogies works against Joe's statement, because there is nothing inherently logical in the steps shown.

*In quotes because I'm not saying anything important or that original, but I felt they needed to be said.

Joe Franklin
12-13-2007, 10:56 PM
And oh look, more bullshit.

And I think it's clear what kind of Christian you are from the way you talk. The nutcase kind who thinks Catholics aren't Christians.

Or UCC, apparently.

:confused:

You lost me with this one?

Joe Franklin
12-13-2007, 11:02 PM
2 "points"*.
Being raised catholic is the number 1 cause of atheism. Being raised Muslim is the number 1 cause of being Muslim.

I think you are trying to be sarcastic with this statement, but it does have merit none the less. I work on a college campus, with some muslim students, and very few of them have rejected their muslim upbringings. Islam is a hard core dedicated religion, and very few children who are brought up in it, reject it as adults. Barack could be an exception to the rule, but I highly doubt he is. Politicians use smoke screens all the time during their political careers, in order to cater to their potential voting base.

mattx110
12-13-2007, 11:14 PM
I think you are trying to be sarcastic with this statement, but it does have merit none the less. I work on a college campus, with some muslim students, and very few of them have rejected their muslim upbringings. Islam is a hard core dedicated religion, and very few children who are brought up in it, reject it as adults. Barack could be an exception to the rule, but I highly doubt he is. Politicians use smoke screens all the time during their political careers, in order to cater to their potential voting base.
Exactly. No logical foundation in what you're saying. The numbers are irrelevent. I did not knowingly say anything false. Any wrongness is ignorance. The fact that most people raised Muslim maintain their faith is completely irrelevent.

It's a statistical principle, that all statistics are flawed because they say nothing of composition, or intent. The more human choice becomes a factor, the less effective our predictive ability is.

Anyway, all belief is essentially pretending. I see no problem if Barack Obama is a frenchfryist episcipalien if he's pretending to be christian or not. I'd rather he lie about which God he prefers, than which health care plan he's going to ennact.

Joe Franklin
12-13-2007, 11:27 PM
Exactly. No logical foundation in what you're saying. The numbers are irrelevent. I did not knowingly say anything false. Any wrongness is ignorance. The fact that most people raised Muslim maintain their faith is completely irrelevent.

It's a statistical principle, that all statistics are flawed because they say nothing of composition, or intent. The more human choice becomes a factor, the less effective our predictive ability is.

Anyway, all belief is essentially pretending. I see no problem if Barack Obama is a frenchfryist episcipalien if he's pretending to be christian or not. I'd rather he lie about which God he prefers, than which health care plan he's going to ennact.

I'd rather a presidential candidate tell the truth about everything, but sadly, none of them do. If a candidate is 100% honest, they have no shot at getting the nomination from their party, much less winning the overall election. It's very sad.:(

NatGertler
12-13-2007, 11:27 PM
Barack's father Barack Hussein Obama was a radical muslimNo, he wasn't. Actually, at the time of the marriage, he was agnostic.
But even if he had been, that would not make Barack a Muslim.


Barack's Muslim step father Lolo Soetoro educated Barack by having him attend a Wahabbi school in Jakarta.No, he didn't. He went to the public school, the Basuki school, which was not a religious institution.
But even if it had been, that would not make Barack a Muslim.

Not knocking the guy, just...
...putting forth a string of lies in order to support your Nazi efforts.

Joe Franklin
12-13-2007, 11:34 PM
No, he wasn't. Actually, at the time of the marriage, he was agnostic.
But even if he had been, that would not make Barack a Muslim.

No, he didn't. He went to the public school, the Basuki school, which was not a religious institution.
But even if it had been, that would not make Barack a Muslim.

...putting forth a string of lies in order to support your Nazi efforts.

Nazi efforts?:confused:

And you are wrong about where he went to school, and what his parents believed.

NatGertler
12-14-2007, 12:30 AM
cleared multiple post

NatGertler
12-14-2007, 12:32 AM
cleared multiple post

Agent Helix
12-14-2007, 06:22 AM
The Godwin's Law so nice, you had to say it thrice!

sgt pepper
12-14-2007, 07:05 AM
Never said I had christian moral codes, just that the politicians who do, are the ones labeled as nutcases is all.

Oh wow. Sorry for the "misunderstanding" then. You're doing God's work, my man, standing up for the defenseless like that. Keep it up because they sure need your help with all of the persectution going on and everything.

NatGertler
12-14-2007, 07:08 AM
The Godwin's Law so nice, you had to say it thrice!Sorry about that -- CBR was acting up in some weird ways.

bartl
12-14-2007, 09:10 AM
The trick with the "electability" issue is that the nominees are not going to be running against player unknown. I've heard explanations of why every major player in this election cannot be elected... and yet one of them will be. After the nominations, there are likely to be just two candidates seriously in play, and while America may not feel ready for either a black or a Mormon, a woman or a cross-dresser, a guy who sees aliens or a guy who feels personally chosen by the Giant Invisible Guy, they will end up choosing one or the other.
Actually, Biden and Richardson both have few enough negatives that they could easily beat any Republican on the table. Unfortunately, we have one candidate who is running on the basis of what's in between her legs, one running on the basis of the color of his skin, and a one-term Senator who couldn't even get re-elected in his own state as the major Democratic candidates, and, on the Republican side, a much-married cross-dresser associated with corruption, a man known for backstabbing his own party several times, a Baptist preacher, and a guy who belongs to a hated religion who appears to base his positions on the polls. I'm not even considering in the Republican mix the guy who's good at pretending to be the President.

I've been voting in Presidential elections since Ford/Carter, and have always voted for whoever I thought would do the most easily reversible damage. For this one, it hasn't changed. I'd vote for Obama over just about any Republican; he has Carter's incompetence without his stubbornness, and will probably end up being another Bill Clinton. On the Republican side, I don't think McCain will do much damage, and Giuliani will try, but he won't succeed. So I hope at least one of those three ends up in the finals, otherwise we're all in trouble.

bartl
12-14-2007, 09:12 AM
So, having a religion automatically makes you a nutcase?
See my comments on the Religious Left.

On the other hand, Obama is NOT a Muslim; he's a Christian, and goes to a segregated church.

FunkyGreenJerusalem
12-14-2007, 09:05 PM
Or are you suggesting, by logical extension, that I'm not really an atheist because my parents were Catholic and I was raised Catholic, so I must only be pretending to be an atheist?

- Grant

What about me?
I was raised Anglican, baptized, and actually actively involved and believing in the God, Jesus and such up until I was in my teens!
Did my eventual distaste for the message and then disbelief in the concepts count for nothing?
Does my abandonment of faith and requirement for proof before something is fact not count because of decisions made for me, and by myself, before I was legally an adult?
Christ, if I'm not an atheist, I don't know what to believe.
Every time I think I'm out, they pull me back in.

mattx110
12-14-2007, 09:58 PM
Well, I was raised an atheist... So I don't know about you guys, but I'm safe. Thank God I don't believe in... Oh CRAP! It got me too.

Magneto X
12-14-2007, 10:53 PM
Barack's father Barack Hussein Obama was a radical muslim who divorces Barack Jr's mother when he was only 2 years old. Barack's Muslim step father Lolo Soetoro educated Barack by having him attend a Wahabbi school in Jakarta. Barack was raised a muslim, and attended a muslim school. Obviously in America's current state of the threat of terrorism, it would not be smart for any candidate to claim Islam as their religion of choice. So Barack joined the Uninted Church Of Christ as a smoke screen for his muslim religious beliefs. Not knocking the guy, just saying that he is a muslim, not a christian.:)

You are easily fooled.


http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1007/6314.html


Sad.

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_barack_obama_muslim.htm



And not good at fact checking.


http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp

The Ray
12-14-2007, 11:16 PM
Bringing back to focus, I'm leaning towards Obama more than I am Hillary. At least Obama isn't BLATANT with his fallacies.

I'm hoping for Kucinich, but him getting elected would only happen if his running mate was Megatron from the Transformers.


Kucinich/Megatron '08

Steven Grant
12-15-2007, 10:15 AM
I'd rather a presidential candidate tell the truth about everything, but sadly, none of them do. If a candidate is 100% honest, they have no shot at getting the nomination from their party, much less winning the overall election. It's very sad.:(

Nobody's 100% honest about everything, and it's usually a bad idea because most people don't trust people who are even 95% honest. Most people are only completely honest when they feel they have nothing to lose by it.

Matter of fact, in high elected officials, you want a little capacity for subterfuge and misdirection; being totally honest at all times when dealing with foreign governments limits options and generates a position of weakness in many situations. Little white lies, at least, are the stuff tact and diplomacy are built on; countries have gone to war over the absence of that stuff. What you want is an elected official is the good sense and judgment to know when lying is in the best interests of his constituency and when it isn't.

It's what most of us want in anyone, really.

- Grant

Steven Grant
12-15-2007, 10:30 AM
And you are wrong about where he went to school, and what his parents believed.

No, he really isn't. Look, all this nonsense was disproved months ago, and your repeating it endlessly in dismissal of the facts isn't going to change that. So I have a choice here: let people continue to dispute your statements only to have you repeat them in an endless cycle, or, now that everyone has had their say, close down the thread. Having been through this a time or twelve, going with the latter. Anyone who wants to figure out what's what, start Googling and get your own facts, then make up your own minds.

Over and out.

- Grant