Did I miss any of Tony Stark's crimes?

[mikekerr3]

Looked back though the civil war series and this is what I found for Tony Stark.

ASM 530 Destruction of government property, aggravated assault 1-5 Years

New Avengers - Illuminati - 001: kidnapping criminal conspiracy. LIFE/LIFE

Amazing Spider-Man - 531 perjury Providing False evidence to Congress. 5-10 Years

Civil war 4: Negligent Homicide or Use of a deadly device: Clor being the equivalent of a Booby-trap or landmine. A device not under human control intended to harm people. Aggravated assault with a deadly weapon: on Peter Parker who had not broken the law or announced his intention to due so. Conspiring to and depriving people of rights of: due process, representation by attorney. Torture of prisoners some as are driven mad by presence in the Negative Zone. Removing Persons from the jurisdiction of the Court. Lif/5-10Yrs/LifeX30 or more.2-5 yrs X30 or More

Civil War - Front Line - 07 at least 6 counts of felony homicide. No attempt was made at arrest suspects were assassinated by Starks agent a known murderer ading a felon to escape custody LIFE X6, 5-10YRs

New Avengers 24: Breaking and Entering, assault. (Inhuman Jurisdiction) Death if he is stupid enough to try again

Civil War Frontline 08 Attempted murder of a diplomat. Violation of US and International law. Attempting to incite a war, considered a crime against humanity. Life/Death

Civil War Frontline 09 Treason, torture of prisoner via nannies. Death/20-life

Civil War Frontline 11: Grand theft via stock fraud. 5-20Yrs

I may have missed some let me know

[DeadXMan]

Treason (stark Wars)

[Kefky]

Aaaah, you guys kill me!

[Pwood]

Superheroes do that stuff all the time though. It's not just Tony...

[Alan2099]

Well, if you want to get into the Clone Thor (I refuse to call him Clor. That's a stupid name.) You have

Cloning. (I'm pretty sure it's currently illegal)
Slaverly.
You could make arguements for surgery without concert.
Possibly defacing a relegious icon (I'm not quite sure about that, but Thor IS a god)
Defemation of character
Identity Theft.

Superheroes do that stuff all the time though. It's not just Tony...
Yes, but Tony is the one standing up saying superheroes should be accountable for what they do.

[Pwood]

Yes, but Tony is the one standing up saying superheroes should be accountable for what they do.

Of course, but all I was saying is that people shouldn't crucify Tony so easily for crimes that other heroes commit all the time...

I'm not disargeeing that he has done those things, just that he isn't the only one is all...

[SquidSquod]

I have a hunch Iron Man still will reign supreme in Secret Invasion and 2008. Any of you guys boycotting the movie?

[Sijo]

Yes, but Tony is the one standing up saying superheroes should be accountable for what they do.
Everyone except him, it seems. He even got a cushy job out of it...

Superheroes do that stuff all the time though. It's not just Tony...
Not to that degree. The typical superhero could be accused of vigilantism, perhaps property destruction (though it could be argued they were trying to *prevent* said destruction to start with.) Tony, or rather the writers, are going with an "ends justifies the means" mentality.

I have a hunch Iron Man still will reign supreme in Secret Invasion and 2008. Any of you guys boycotting the movie?
He'll eventually be forgiven and accepted as a hero again, especially when the movie comes out. And I'll bet he won't be doing any of his Civil War crimes on the movie.

[pimp1911]

Destruction of property and disturbing the peace would get everyone in the Marvel Universe arrested except for Cosmo.

[Brian M.]

Tony Stark was right.

[XPac]

Of course, but all I was saying is that people shouldn't crucify Tony so easily for crimes that other heroes commit all the time...

I'm not disargeeing that he has done those things, just that he isn't the only one is all...

There are plenty of things Stark has done which most heroes haven't.

Off the top of your head, how many heroes can you think of who mind controlled someone into committing a terrorist bombing on US soil to garner political support?

[Brian M.]

There are plenty of things Stark has done which most heroes haven't.

Off the top of your head, how many heroes can you think of who mind controlled someone into committing a terrorist bombing on US soil to garner political support?

He did that b/c he didn't have a myspace account.

[XPac]

He did that b/c he didn't have a myspace account.

That's probably not true. If it were I'm sure Sally Flody would have gotten in his face for it. Heroes not having that is something she clearly won't stand for.

[Pwood]

There are plenty of things Stark has done which most heroes haven't.

Off the top of your head, how many heroes can you think of who mind controlled someone into committing a terrorist bombing on US soil to garner political support?

Okay, I should clarify. Yes, Tony has committed several atrocities that he is supposed to be preventing by being a hero and arbiter of the law. And yes, they are on a higher degree than normal. All I was saying is that other heroes are allowed some liberties with some of the ones mentioned, such as destruction of property (just look at Civil War, World War Hulk, etc.) and other minor crimes that the government is likely to look over.

Mind control, conspiracy to kidnap, etc. are not justifiable for anyone. Not even Stark.

[psm]

Looked back though the civil war series and this is what I found for Tony Stark.

ASM 530 Destruction of government property, aggravated assault 1-5 Years

New Avengers - Illuminati - 001: kidnapping criminal conspiracy. LIFE/LIFE

Amazing Spider-Man - 531 perjury Providing False evidence to Congress. 5-10 Years

Civil war 4: Negligent Homicide or Use of a deadly device: Clor being the equivalent of a Booby-trap or landmine. A device not under human control intended to harm people. Aggravated assault with a deadly weapon: on Peter Parker who had not broken the law or announced his intention to due so. Conspiring to and depriving people of rights of: due process, representation by attorney. Torture of prisoners some as are driven mad by presence in the Negative Zone. Removing Persons from the jurisdiction of the Court. Lif/5-10Yrs/LifeX30 or more.2-5 yrs X30 or More

Civil War - Front Line - 07 at least 6 counts of felony homicide. No attempt was made at arrest suspects were assassinated by Starks agent a known murderer adding a felon to escape custody LIFE X6, 5-10YRs

New Avengers 24: Breaking and Entering, assault. (Inhuman Jurisdiction) Death if he is stupid enough to try again

Civil War Frontline 08 Attempted murder of a diplomat. Violation of US and International law. Attempting to incite a war, considered a crime against humanity. Life/Death

Civil War Frontline 09 Treason, torture of prisoner via nannies. Death/20-life

Civil War Frontline 11: Grand theft via stock fraud. 5-20Yrs

I may have missed some let me know

Well, some of the crimes you mentioned are committed by the majority of heroes and some I would disagree with you on. That being said, Stark has done acts that would definitely land him in jail for life (if not worse) on multiple accounts.

But that's the point. Stark is being used to represent the current mindset of our current political administration (or at least as seen by the current writers at Marvel).

[Will.S]

He did that b/c he didn't have a myspace account.
LOL.

Anyway, I think some of you guys are dismissing the other heroes. Reed and Hank should be held just as accountable for Clor not just Tony so Thor should be having words with them as well. Reed also invaded a country and overthrew their gov't (Latveria) and don't even get me started on Hank.

They're all jerks in some form or another, Tony's just managed to zip ahead of them for the time being.

[Pwood]

LOL.

Anyway, I think some of you guys are dismissing the other heroes. Reed and Hank should be held just as accountable for Clor not just Tony so Thor should be having words with them as well. Reed also invaded a country and overthrew their gov't (Latveria) and don't even get me started on Hank.

They're all jerks in some form or another, Tony's just managed to zip ahead of them for the time being.

Exactly. Prime examples of what I was referring to...

[Alan2099]

That's probably not true. If it were I'm sure Sally Flody would have gotten in his face for it. Heroes not having that is something she clearly won't stand for.

I hear that's part of hero registration now. When you register, they set you up with a Myspace account and give you NASCAR tickets.

[Will.S]

Exactly. Prime examples of what I was referring to...
Yep.

Also Reed and Hank had a hand in developing the 42 prison as well, Reed in fact essentially renovated/remodeled the Negative Zone prison that was meant for villains. As for the attack on the Atlanteans in the warehouse, admittedly it's a bad story but they were obviously terrorists so Tony got to them before they did any damage although using GG to kill them is an extreme way to do it.

[Shellhead]

Arno Stark, the Iron Man of 2020, doesn't need to bother showing up. At this point, Tony Stark is much more ruthless and dangerous.

[Exo]

Arno Stark, the Iron Man of 2020, doesn't need to bother showing up. At this point, Tony Stark is much more ruthless and dangerous.

That's ridiculous. Arno was never dangerous.

[mikekerr3]

Yep.

Also Reed and Hank had a hand in developing the 42 prison as well, Reed in fact essentially renovated/remodeled the Negative Zone prison that was meant for villains. As for the attack on the Atlanteans in the warehouse, admittedly it's a bad story but they were obviously terrorists so Tony got to them before they did any damage although using GG to kill them is an extreme way to do it.

Them being obvious terrorists haslittle to do with it, they could have been soldiers anyway, Nobody gave Stark the Titles of Judge, Jury and Executioner. There was no war with Atlantis at that time. If he knew they were there he haplenty of time to send the Avengers or Shield. This was just cold-blooded murder for political profit.

[Iron_Stark]

Current and former X-Men members that've commited:

Wolverine - Murder
Emma Frost - Murder, terrorism
Mystique - Murder, terrorism
Juggernaut - Murder, former leader of a terrorist organization
Rogue - terrorism, possible murder
Magneto - murder, terrorism, yet the X-men have accepted him on thier team countless times
Sabertooth - murderer

Current Marvel "hero" that has committed crimes.

Punisher - murder countless property damage

The X-men as whole have done far worse than Tony.

[mikekerr3]

They don't commit their crimes then try to enslave the fellow Meta's while saying "It's the law". Tony stark is a serial killerand traitor, who running a agency that uses suicide bombers for genocide, but he keeps going on about law and responsibility.

[Will.S]

Them being obvious terrorists haslittle to do with it, they could have been soldiers anyway, Nobody gave Stark the Titles of Judge, Jury and Executioner.Yes they did.

He was among the first to carry out the Registration Act.

There was no war with Atlantis at that time. If he knew they were there he haplenty of time to send the Avengers or Shield. This was just cold-blooded murder for political profit.
Apparently those Atlanteans had other plans that involved terrorist activity or even invasion. Pardon me for not shedding any tears for terrorists. Oh and the Avengers were already split apart by the War with SHIELD and Wonderman the only few on the scene.

[Mark_S]

You know I'm sure I saw Tony jaywalking at some point in cw. :evilsmile

But the problem is that what ever crimes he commited during cw are off the table now. His side won. He could have danced nude across the white house lawn and as long as the pro-sra side won he was off the hook. Him and Reed and Hank and the thousand or so other lab techs it must have taken to whip up Clor.

When your side wins in a civil war and the press is on your side and you have tons of money... you really don't have much to worry about.

Mark_S

[TotalWorldDomination]

Yes, Tony has broken the law. Is it hypocritical to break laws to save lives by enforcing other laws? Perhaps. Lets not forget that Cap for years crowed about democracy untill a vote went the way he didn't want it to, then conveinantly decided that democracy wasn't that important to him. Every hero has done things that makes puts them on the wrong side of the law or ethical "correctness". It's more dramatic that way.

And lets not forget when we're bandying about the word Traitor, that Washington was a Tratior. A Traitor is just someone that the other side decided was wrong and had betrayed them. Having said that, Cap was a filthy little traitor and when they bring him back to life I hope he begs tony for forgiveness. :D

But most importantly of all, lets all calm the heck down. These threads are quickly becoming just as much fun as the race bating/Thor vs Sentry ones.

[vitruvian]

But the problem is that what ever crimes he commited during cw are off the table now. His side won. He could have danced nude across the white house lawn and as long as the pro-sra side won he was off the hook. Him and Reed and Hank and the thousand or so other lab techs it must have taken to whip up Clor.

When your side wins in a civil war and the press is on your side and you have tons of money... you really don't have much to worry about.

Not until the statute of limitations runs out - and some of these crimes don't *have* one.

Of course, the only one that's likely to be fairly easily proven and to stick is the insider trading one, but then they got Al Capone for tax evasion, didn't they? If Urich and Floyd could figure it out, I'm sure the SEC could as well.

[Mark_S]

Not until the statute of limitations runs out - and some of these crimes don't *have* one.

Of course, the only one that's likely to be fairly easily proven and to stick is the insider trading one, but then they got Al Capone for tax evasion, didn't they? If Urich and Floyd could figure it out, I'm sure the SEC could as well.

Tony runs SHIELD. Anyone gives him any trouble and he could have them vanished quite easily-as he tried to do to She-Hulk and did do to the Hulk.

Mark_S

[Tobias Drake]

Tony runs SHIELD. Anyone gives him any trouble and he could have them vanished quite easily-as he tried to do to She-Hulk and did do to the Hulk.

Mark_S

Tried to do to She-Hulk? He dropped her off on American soil where she could find a ride and go back to her law practice. If he wanted to make her disappear, he would have left her in Siberia.

[Mark_S]

Tried to do to She-Hulk? He dropped her off on American soil where she could find a ride and go back to her law practice. If he wanted to make her disappear, he would have left her in Siberia.

Not quite, he dropped Jenifer Walters off to use as bait for Cho. If you recall when he first hit She-Hulk with the repulsor ray he assumed that she was unconscious. At that point he turned his back, ordered her locked up in the brig and said that he had too much on his plate to deal with her. So he could have left her locked up for as long a he wanted to, at least that is how the issue was written. He probably couldn't have done that, though the inference was there. There were too many SHIELD agents around and word would have gotten out. He might have let Jen go hoping that Doc Samson would take care of her by accident (wich he might have done if Cho had not reversed the nano-machines, Samson's first move after all was to generate a shockwave with his hands that would been dangerous for any normal human and there was no real guarentee that Cho could have gotten his shield up in time.) and taken the blame.
After Jen got back to Earth and back to her law firm she was too high profile a target to take out easily, if he were still in charge of the Thunderbolts Tony could have sicked them on her, or if he had the ability to release anyone from the shrunken prison he might have sent Titania after her, but those avenues were closed to him. We still don't know why Jen was dissbarred, I suspect that Tony paid of a judge.
But to bottom line this before I make anyone even madder with my unproven unsubstantiated suspicions, going by his portrayal in cw and frontline and Thor 3 and a few others, if Tony feels that someone stands in his way and he has the power then they won't be standing for very long. And with hundreds of fanatical SHIELD black opps agents at his command there is really no check on his ability to have someone simply vanish in the middle of the night. This is what I believe. Pre-cw I would have given Tony the benifit of inocent until proven guilty, post cw I figure it just saves time if I think he is guilty. The guy is guilty of so much anyway.

Mark_S

[Tobias Drake]

Not quite, he dropped Jenifer Walters off to use as bait for Cho. If you recall when he first hit She-Hulk with the repulsor ray he assumed that she was unconscious. At that point he turned his back, ordered her locked up in the brig and said that he had too much on his plate to deal with her. So he could have left her locked up for as long a he wanted to, at least that is how the issue was written. He probably couldn't have done that, though the inference was there. There were too many SHIELD agents around and word would have gotten out. He might have let Jen go hoping that Doc Samson would take care of her by accident (wich he might have done if Cho had not reversed the nano-machines, Samson's first move after all was to generate a shockwave with his hands that would been dangerous for any normal human and there was no real guarentee that Cho could have gotten his shield up in time.) and taken the blame.
After Jen got back to Earth and back to her law firm she was too high profile a target to take out easily, if he were still in charge of the Thunderbolts Tony could have sicked them on her, or if he had the ability to release anyone from the shrunken prison he might have sent Titania after her, but those avenues were closed to him. We still don't know why Jen was dissbarred, I suspect that Tony paid of a judge.
But to bottom line this before I make anyone even madder with my unproven unsubstantiated suspicions, going by his portrayal in cw and frontline and Thor 3 and a few others, if Tony feels that someone stands in his way and he has the power then they won't be standing for very long. And with hundreds of fanatical SHIELD black opps agents at his command there is really no check on his ability to have someone simply vanish in the middle of the night. This is what I believe. Pre-cw I would have given Tony the benifit of inocent until proven guilty, post cw I figure it just saves time if I think he is guilty. The guy is guilty of so much anyway.

Mark_S

Which is a lot of malice to attribute to a guy who, by all signs, depowered her, dropped her off, and stopped caring from that point on because she was no longer in any way capable of the kind of metahuman super-powered crime that would attract S.H.I.E.L.D.'s attention.

[Mark_S]

Which is a lot of malice to attribute to a guy who, by all signs, depowered her, dropped her off, and stopped caring from that point on because she was no longer in any way capable of the kind of metahuman super-powered crime that would attract S.H.I.E.L.D.'s attention.

She wasn't a criminal before. All she did was shout at him. But we've argued that before. And he used her as bait. If Jen had died in Samsons attack Tony would have cried crocodile tears at her funeral and given her body to SHIELD techs to disect.

Mark_S

[Tobias Drake]

She wasn't a criminal before. All she did was shout at him. But we've argued that before. And he used her as bait. If Jen had died in Samsons attack Tony would have cried crocodile tears at her funeral and given her body to SHIELD techs to disect.

Mark_S

Uh-huh. So now you're accusing him of What Ifs that have no valid basis whatsoever. Lovely.

That he used her as bait is a given. Why not kill two birds with one stone? As for Samson's attack...Samson is Initiative. He's legally registered and has been cleared for action. It stands to reason that he would know how to do his job without going overboard.

[StoneGold]

Cloning. (I'm pretty sure it's currently illegal)Not a law that really works in the MU, since human cloning has been perfected. But even then, Thor isn't human, so it really doesn't apply. The ban is just on human cloning.
Slaverly. How do you know Clor wasn't being paid somehow? You don't. But even then, given that Clor was basically an android with a flesh wrap, no.
You could make arguements for surgery without concert.How exactly?
Possibly defacing a relegious icon (I'm not quite sure about that, but Thor IS a god) Not a crime. I can deface as many crosses as I want, as long as they are mine.
Defemation of characterDid Tony ever say Clor was Thor? No? Then it isn't slander. Did he write it? No? Then it isn't libel. You just took a crime that sounded like something you wanted to apply it to and wrote it down, didn't you? Not that the rest of these weren't basically the same thing, but whatever.
Identity Theft.

Unless he stole Thor's credit cards, no.

[Mark_S]

Uh-huh. So now you're accusing him of What Ifs that have no valid basis whatsoever. Lovely.

That he used her as bait is a given. Why not kill two birds with one stone? As for Samson's attack...Samson is Initiative. He's legally registered and has been cleared for action. It stands to reason that he would know how to do his job without going overboard.

No, just extrapolating from what I know of Tony Stark. And your comment about Doc Samson is entirely correct, giving Tony completely plausible deniability. He could use Jen to trap Cho and if she was killed, or if they were both killed, he could simply blame it on Samson.

Mark_S

[Mark_S]

Not a law that really works in the MU, since human cloning has been perfected. But even then, Thor isn't human, so it really doesn't apply. The ban is just on human cloning.How do you know Clor wasn't being paid somehow? You don't. But even then, given that Clor was basically an android with a flesh wrap, no. How exactly? Not a crime. I can deface as many crosses as I want, as long as they are mine.Did Tony ever say Clor was Thor? No? Then it isn't slander. Did he write it? No? Then it isn't libel. You just took a crime that sounded like something you wanted to apply it to and wrote it down, didn't you? Not that the rest of these weren't basically the same thing, but whatever.
Unless he stole Thor's credit cards, no.

See what I mean? Tony's side won, there is nothing he can't do and get away with it and he will be defended to the last by those who agree with him. As long as you win, as long as you have power and you are the government then no laws really apply to you. That is they way most marvel comics are being written now. There is always an out no matter how slimy your actions.

Mark_S

[Exo]

Most marvel comics or just A:TI? Tony isn't geting away with anything in his own book.

[Mark_S]

Most marvel comics or just A:TI? Tony isn't geting away with anything in his own book.

No, you're right, that went too far. But in cw Tony-officially anyway-was able to do just about anything he wanted to do.

Mark_S

[Fatguy]

See what I mean? Tony's side won, there is nothing he can't do and get away with it and he will be defended to the last by those who agree with him. As long as you win, as long as you have power and you are the government then no laws really apply to you. That is they way most marvel comics are being written now. There is always an out no matter how slimy your actions.

Mark_S

You seem to be taking this far too seriously.

[Mark_S]

See message 39.

Mark_S

[Brian M.]

You seem to be taking this far too seriously.


It is serious. It's comic book politics. Tony Stark is a war criminal. I don't understand why he isn't arrested and put to death.




Oh wait...nm, I do understand, HE'S NOT REAL AND IT MAKES FOR A GOOD GOD DAMN STORY!!!!!!!!!!!

[StoneGold]

It is serious. It's comic book politics. Tony Stark is a war criminal. I don't understand why he isn't arrested and put to death.




For one thing, because there was no war. You don't have a war with some 50-100 combatants.

[Red Orion]

Looked back though the civil war series and this is what I found for Tony Stark.

ASM 530 Destruction of government property, aggravated assault 1-5 Years

New Avengers - Illuminati - 001: kidnapping criminal conspiracy. LIFE/LIFE

Amazing Spider-Man - 531 perjury Providing False evidence to Congress. 5-10 Years

Civil war 4: Negligent Homicide or Use of a deadly device: Clor being the equivalent of a Booby-trap or landmine. A device not under human control intended to harm people. Aggravated assault with a deadly weapon: on Peter Parker who had not broken the law or announced his intention to due so. Conspiring to and depriving people of rights of: due process, representation by attorney. Torture of prisoners some as are driven mad by presence in the Negative Zone. Removing Persons from the jurisdiction of the Court. Lif/5-10Yrs/LifeX30 or more.2-5 yrs X30 or More

Civil War - Front Line - 07 at least 6 counts of felony homicide. No attempt was made at arrest suspects were assassinated by Starks agent a known murderer ading a felon to escape custody LIFE X6, 5-10YRs

New Avengers 24: Breaking and Entering, assault. (Inhuman Jurisdiction) Death if he is stupid enough to try again

Civil War Frontline 08 Attempted murder of a diplomat. Violation of US and International law. Attempting to incite a war, considered a crime against humanity. Life/Death

Civil War Frontline 09 Treason, torture of prisoner via nannies. Death/20-life

Civil War Frontline 11: Grand theft via stock fraud. 5-20Yrs

I may have missed some let me know

You missed him breaking Maya Lopez, a terrorist responsible for the deaths of the entire Houston FBI division, out of jail to help him and then letting her live in his house.

[Harlock]

For one thing, because there was no war. You don't have a war with some 50-100 combatants.

Even when the said 50-100 combatants can level a city? That's like saying dropping a few nukes in New York City isn't a war...

[StoneGold]

Looked back though the civil war series and this is what I found for Tony Stark. Let's get lawyerly. For one thing, I have no idea where you are getting your prison terms from. Did you just randomly assign penalties to crimes? There's no life sentence for kidnapping in Alaska. Perjury to congress isn't a 5-10 year sentence. Either you show some links, or you're making crap up randomly.

Although on the kidnapping thing, I don't even know who would have jurisdiction. Presumably Alaska, but in real life, there's no crime for shooting someone into space. And the restraint happened in space, where really, there is no law.

[StoneGold]

Even when the said 50-100 combatants can level a city? That's like saying dropping a few nukes in New York City isn't a war...

Do you call it a war when 50-odd people attack the government? Or when the government attacks 50-odd people? No. And the federales have the firepower to wipe out the world a few times over. Whatever Waco was, that's what you'd call Civil War.

[Brian M.]

What ED said.

[Trey]

Current and former X-Men members that've commited:

Wolverine - Murder
Emma Frost - Murder, terrorism
Mystique - Murder, terrorism
Juggernaut - Murder, former leader of a terrorist organization
Rogue - terrorism, possible murder
Magneto - murder, terrorism, yet the X-men have accepted him on thier team countless times
Sabertooth - murderer

Current Marvel "hero" that has committed crimes.

Punisher - murder countless property damage

The X-men as whole have done far worse than Tony.

Self-defense on all counts. :cool:

Esp. Pun, all those criminals wouldn't think twice before wiping him out, or shooting your grandma and getting your little brother hooked on smack.

[StoneGold]

Self-defense on all counts. :cool:

Esp. Pun, all those criminals wouldn't think twice before wiping him out, or shooting your grandma and getting your little brother hooked on smack.

Yes, I know, you're joking, but I didn't know there was a self-defense component to terrorism. That said, I don't believe terrorism itself is a crime. It's a broad general term for a variety of acts.

[Trey]

Other crimes:

Illegal drug use- Extremis

Hijacking satellites- 10-15 years

Stealing Christmas- 5 to life

[mikekerr3]

Let's get lawyerly. For one thing, I have no idea where you are getting your prison terms from. Did you just randomly assign penalties to crimes? There's no life sentence for kidnapping in Alaska. Perjury to congress isn't a 5-10 year sentence. Either you show some links, or you're making crap up randomly.

Although on the kidnapping thing, I don't even know who would have jurisdiction. Presumably Alaska, but in real life, there's no crime for shooting someone into space. And the restraint happened in space, where really, there is no law.

Federal Jurisdiction he was a US citizen tricked off of US Soil. The crime starts when actions in furtherance of the crime begin. If you had watched the news over the Scooter Libby thing you would have heard the 5-10 yr thing 100s of times.

Kidnapping that crosses a States Border has been a federal offense Since the 1920s. Lindberg's babay and all that.

[SquidSquod]

As I said before, some of you gotta stand back and realize that what you're arguing about is a made-up character. My suggestion is to breathe in and optimistically think Marvel will do best to redeem or punish (whatever that means) the character in due time.

Again if you hate Iron Man (again an imaginary character) so much, then boycott the 2008 movie as a testament to your illogical thoughts.

[mikekerr3]

As I said before, some of you gotta stand back and realize that what you're arguing about is a made-up character. My suggestion is to breathe in and optimistically think Marvel will do best to redeem or punish (whatever that means) the character in due time.

Again if you hate Iron Man (again an imaginary character) so much, then boycott the 2008 movie as a testament to your illogical thoughts.

I despise that Marvel has taken a flawed but intrinsically heroic character and turned him a fascistic villain. I have read Iron Man since they were 12 cents a copy. I dislike an editorial policy that says murder and genocide are heroic. I would have enjoyed the Iron Man movie if I thought I could keep the fact that I have been reading about him as a villain for a year out of the back of my head.

[Brian M.]

I despise that Marvel has taken a flawed but intrinsically heroic character and turned him a fascistic villain. I have read Iron Man since they were 12 cents a copy. I dislike an editorial policy that says murder and genocide are heroic. I would have enjoyed the Iron Man movie if I thought I could keep the fact that I have been reading about him as a villain for a year out of the back of my head.

"Fascistic Villian"...the fact that you used that to describe Iron Man completely invalidates anything you have said. Fascist...you've got to be kidding me.

[SquidSquod]

I despise that Marvel has taken a flawed but intrinsically heroic character and turned him a fascistic villain. I have read Iron Man since they were 12 cents a copy. I dislike an editorial policy that says murder and genocide are heroic. I would have enjoyed the Iron Man movie if I thought I could keep the fact that I have been reading about him as a villain for a year out of the back of my head.

Iron Man turning into somehow a despicable character is not without its upshot. He is commanding a bigger share of Marvel attention now (compared to like Spidey:OMD flunks, Cap: Dead, Hulk: 2008 2nd rater, Wolverine:Who?) and I think in due time Marvel will give him a bit of respectability whereas his higher profile in the MU won't get reversed to the pre-2000 level.

[mikekerr3]

"Fascistic Villian"...the fact that you used that to describe Iron Man completely invalidates anything you have said. Fascist...you've got to be kidding me.

Goverment Power at the expense of individual rights. Murder of people for political ends, Prison without due process. Calling people who are simply criminals traitors. A complete disregard for the rights contained within the Constitution. Attempted assassination of diplomats.

I would say it fits fairly well.

[Drdmx]

I've always said it wasnt worth anyones time to have a very real hate for a very fictional character. That being said... there's nothing wrong with voicing your distain for said character. The validity of it gets lost though when every time you post it's something negative about said character.

Please oh please dont act like this forum is full of Iron Man haters though, because the Pro-Iron Man crowd far out number them.

[mindcrime]

I've always said it wasnt worth anyones time to have a very real hate for a very fictional character. That being said... there's nothing wrong with voicing your distain for said character. The validity of it gets lost though when every time you post it's something negative about said character.

Please oh please dont act like this forum is full of Iron Man haters though, because the Pro-Iron Man crowd far out number them.





we outnumber them???? look at the vote on has tony suffered enough thread. ive been defending since civil war started. there are far more haters.

[Drdmx]

we outnumber them???? look at the vote on has tony suffered enough thread. ive been defending since civil war started. there are far more haters.

Thats simply a vote as to whether or not he's suffered enough, or even paid for things he's done, not how many people actually hate the guy. There's a difference.

Like Mikekerr I've been a longtime reader of comics and a fan of the character for a long time. I like the concept of Tony, and I enjoy the fantastic piece of writing that writes him as both villain and hero which keeps us talking about it.

That all being said, I like the character, but I'd never defend his actions on threads where it's talked about. I like Magneto too! :D

[XPac]

As I said before, some of you gotta stand back and realize that what you're arguing about is a made-up character. My suggestion is to breathe in and optimistically think Marvel will do best to redeem or punish (whatever that means) the character in due time.

Again if you hate Iron Man (again an imaginary character) so much, then boycott the 2008 movie as a testament to your illogical thoughts.

Honestly, if you're going to start criticising other posters rather than the characters or the comics, then perhaps you're the one that might consider standing back and breathing in a bit. Iron Man is imaginary... the people you're critisizing for their suppossed illogical thoughts are not.

[SquidSquod]

Honestly, if you're going to start criticising other posters rather than the characters or the comics, then perhaps you're the one that might consider standing back and breathing in a bit. Iron Man is imaginary... the people you're critisizing for their suppossed illogical thoughts are not.

Why should I stand back and breath a bit? :confused:

I have already stood back and breath a lot. I suppose I don't spend hours after hours arguing about comics characters, and more so criticizing them. Love all the Marvel characters, and no attachments whatsoever about them.

[XPac]

Why should I stand back and breath a bit? :confused:



It's an internet board. This particular thread is a discussion about one person's criticism of a particular character. If that bothers you for some reason, perhaps it's a better idea to simply not read the thread rather than going into it and calling people illogical. That's all I'm saying.

[SquidSquod]

It's an internet board. This particular thread is a discussion about one person's criticism of a particular character. If that bothers you for some reason, perhaps it's a better idea to simply not read the thread rather than going into it and calling people illogical. That's all I'm saying.

As a matter of fact you've misread what I am saying and what I call to be illogical.


Again if you hate Iron Man (again an imaginary character) so much, then boycott the 2008 movie as a testament to your illogical thoughts


Notice the "so much"? And even that doesn't make it illogical. Illogical is when you go further to boycott the movie.

[mikekerr3]

I'll shut up about Iron Man after this post. I'll shut up about most of marvel from now on. After 43 years I'll no longer be reading the Mainstream marvel books. I'll still read Spidergirl and the Cosmic stuff. OMD looks to be ruinining ASM for me

I grew up reading comics in a time when torture, kidnapping, Genocide and enslavement were what the Villans did, Not the hero. I believe that there are moral lines that when crossed put you behind redemption this side of the grave. I do not wish to associate with people who think that these thing are Heroic.

I don't, thankfully, have the moral fexibility to, stomach the Marvel editors calling Iron Man a hero anymore, He has crossed too many lines. The MU is becoming a place with no moral guides, no characters who are moral except as convient. I read Super-hero comics for Heros. I use to love the old mighty avengers and mst of the other characters but now the books are just characters with varing grades of coruption fighting each other.

As a last line anyone who thinks that Genocide or Concentration camps are ever necessary needs a soul.

I will watch the boards once and a while to see if things have changed.

[jackolover]

Well there's always the crime of dispassion. I don't know why you guys are so down on getting heated under the collar about fictional characters, because that's what I read this stuff for. I like getting passionate at Tony Stark, and Steve Rogers. I wish I could get passionate about Spidey, but, alas, it has become insipid.

However, if Tony Stark makes your blood boil, I don't see any reason why you can't vent your speen on the subject, and conversely, defend his honour to the enth degree also. I know I will.

[mikekerr3]

Notice the "so much"? And even that doesn't make it illogical. Illogical is when you go further to boycott the movie.

What is illogical about choosing not to see a movie with a main character that leaves a bad taste in my mouth? I go to movies to enjoy them not for any other reason. I said I wasn't going to see Iron Thug not that anyone else should not.
Are you saying I should see a movie that would make me uncomfortable? That would be Illogical.

[SquidSquod]

What is illogical about choosing not to see a movie with a main character that leaves a bad taste in my mouth? I go to movies to enjoy them not for any other reason. I said I wasn't going to see Iron Thug not that anyone else should not.
Are you saying I should see a movie that would make me uncomfortable? That would be Illogical.

Relax, Iron Man the movie is the classic arrogant but still heroic Iron Man. As long as Kevin Feige (head of Marvel Studios) still being independent from Joe Quesada (head of Marvel comics), we'll get a heroic Iron Man.

Illogical in here is obvious: Iron Man in the comics is different from Iron Man in the movie. Movie Shellhead is aimed to please the movie watchers, going in line with the classic superhero story. OTOH, I don't know why comics Iron Man needs to be despicable (it surely doesn't help Iron Man comics as sales dip much after CW), but I sure appreciate his higher profile.

[Mark_S]

Have his sales fallen at all? Because seriously I think that is the only thing that marvel will pay attention to on a do-something level. The anger and the scorn for the character on the net is I think dismissed by most marvel writers and editors, and some of them I think actually get angry that people don't see the nuances in Tony's character and accept that they have written a great story.

I can hate Tony and what marvel has done to him, and I can also let it go at times. But inconsistency in marvel is their own fault. During cw some writers tried to write him fairly, but some thought of him as President Bush and used him as a voodoo doll for all their anger and frustration about the current political climate. And some did it deliberately to try and get people angry. And it worked. And now with the movie coming out there are probably some in the marvel marketing department who are running into the "Tony is a villain" chatter on the net boards and are afraid that the chatter will negatively hit the movie. Bad reviews on the net can kill a movie as many fans might read them and decide to wait for the dvd release. So along comes Bendis who says that all of this was part of a long range plan culminating in Secret Invasion.
But a lot of people aren't buying that. It was far easier for marvel to turn on the hate for Tony than it will be to shut that hate off. It will take a Hal Jordon level fix for that and if marvel won't even admit that Tony went too far then I don't see that fix comming. Because now the fan base is split, with some supporting Tony no matter what and some hating Tony no matter what and there is no middle ground. Not as long as Marvel keeps putting out stuff like Thor 3 and She-Hulk.

Mark_S

[psm]

And now with the movie coming out there are probably some in the marvel marketing department who are running into the "Tony is a villain" chatter on the net boards and are afraid that the chatter will negatively hit the movie. Bad reviews on the net can kill a movie as many fans might read them and decide to wait for the dvd release. So along comes Bendis who says that all of this was part of a long range plan culminating in Secret Invasion.


Honestly, I think you are giving way too much credibility to the online community. I very much doubt any body is going to care what we are saying. Assuming, they even know what is being said. Hell, I'm on here a lot and I barely care what anyone says. The majority of people who will want to see the movie will go to a movie critic for a review of it. If Marvel has learned anything its that the movies have almost no correlation to comics when it comes to their respective fans.

[mikekerr3]

Have his sales fallen at all? Because seriously I think that is the only thing that marvel will pay attention to on a do-something level. The anger and the scorn for the character on the net is I think dismissed by most marvel writers and editors, and some of them I think actually get angry that people don't see the nuances in Tony's character and accept that they have written a great story.

I can hate Tony and what marvel has done to him, and I can also let it go at times. But inconsistency in marvel is their own fault. During cw some writers tried to write him fairly, but some thought of him as President Bush and used him as a voodoo doll for all their anger and frustration about the current political climate. And some did it deliberately to try and get people angry. And it worked. And now with the movie coming out there are probably some in the marvel marketing department who are running into the "Tony is a villain" chatter on the net boards and are afraid that the chatter will negatively hit the movie. Bad reviews on the net can kill a movie as many fans might read them and decide to wait for the dvd release. So along comes Bendis who says that all of this was part of a long range plan culminating in Secret Invasion.
But a lot of people aren't buying that. It was far easier for marvel to turn on the hate for Tony than it will be to shut that hate off. It will take a Hal Jordon level fix for that and if marvel won't even admit that Tony went too far then I don't see that fix comming. Because now the fan base is split, with some supporting Tony no matter what and some hating Tony no matter what and there is no middle ground. Not as long as Marvel keeps putting out stuff like Thor 3 and She-Hulk.

Mark_S

I really think that Marvel thinks we are stupid and will accept a " kiss and make-up" during the Secret Invasion. I think that I am not the only one who will find that ridiculous.

As an aside what do you think the Cosmic races will do when they figure out that Its Pyms invention that is wiping them out? The look on his face when told would be work breaking my commitment not to by anymore 616 comics for one issue.

[Brian M.]

I really think that Marvel thinks we are stupid and will accept a " kiss and make-up" during the Secret Invasion. I think that I am not the only one who will find that ridiculous.

As an aside what do you think the Cosmic races will do when they figure out that Its Pyms invention that is wiping them out? The look on his face when told would be work breaking my commitment not to by anymore 616 comics for one issue.

I think it's wrong to think Secret Invasion is suppose to be this big huge "I'm Sorry" to the fans.

You exaggerating what Marvel is doing, quite a bit and really blowing this whole thing outta proportion.

The Iron Man movie will have nothing to do w/ the current state of Tony Stark.

[mikekerr3]

I think it's wrong to think Secret Invasion is suppose to be this big huge "I'm Sorry" to the fans.

You exaggerating what Marvel is doing, quite a bit and really blowing this whole thing outta proportion.

The Iron Man movie will have nothing to do w/ the current state of Tony Stark.

I don't think the the comics will haveany affect on the movie sales.

I don;t think it is blowing what Marvel is doing by making its "heros" into muderers. The halmark of Heros in Marvel , with the exception of the Soldier types of Punisher and Wolverine did not willing kill, now Marvels mainline Heros do things like send Assasins after diplomats.

I will definately warn my friends with kids under 16 or so to try to keep them away from some of the current marvel run if the kids are interested after seeing the movie. I will recomend the Marvel Adventure series to them though. Murder, genocide, slavery and assassination can wait until they are old enough to see a R rated movie especially whit marvel calling the people that do that "Heros."

[Karthak]

See what I mean? Tony's side won, there is nothing he can't do and get away with it and he will be defended to the last by those who agree with him. As long as you win, as long as you have power and you are the government then no laws really apply to you. That is they way most marvel comics are being written now. There is always an out no matter how slimy your actions.

Mark_S

That's the way it's in the real world too. The winners never get prosecuted. Look at the bombing of Dresden. More people died there than in Hiroshima, but did they get prosecuted? hell no. In fact that was one of the nazis defence methods at the trials. They said that the allies had done just as bad things to civilians as they had. Yet who are written as the heroes of ww2?

[stelok]

Looked back though the civil war series and this is what I found for Tony Stark.

ASM 530 Destruction of government property, aggravated assault 1-5 Years

New Avengers - Illuminati - 001: kidnapping criminal conspiracy. LIFE/LIFE

Amazing Spider-Man - 531 perjury Providing False evidence to Congress. 5-10 Years

Civil war 4: Negligent Homicide or Use of a deadly device: Clor being the equivalent of a Booby-trap or landmine. A device not under human control intended to harm people. Aggravated assault with a deadly weapon: on Peter Parker who had not broken the law or announced his intention to due so. Conspiring to and depriving people of rights of: due process, representation by attorney. Torture of prisoners some as are driven mad by presence in the Negative Zone. Removing Persons from the jurisdiction of the Court. Lif/5-10Yrs/LifeX30 or more.2-5 yrs X30 or More

Civil War - Front Line - 07 at least 6 counts of felony homicide. No attempt was made at arrest suspects were assassinated by Starks agent a known murderer ading a felon to escape custody LIFE X6, 5-10YRs

New Avengers 24: Breaking and Entering, assault. (Inhuman Jurisdiction) Death if he is stupid enough to try again

Civil War Frontline 08 Attempted murder of a diplomat. Violation of US and International law. Attempting to incite a war, considered a crime against humanity. Life/Death

Civil War Frontline 09 Treason, torture of prisoner via nannies. Death/20-life

Civil War Frontline 11: Grand theft via stock fraud. 5-20Yrs

I may have missed some let me know

You forgot that Iron Man broke into the Vault, a federal prison for supervillains and disabled the Guardsmen's armors, which could allow the inmates to escape from the prison during Armor Wars storyline.

What's the penalty for breaking into a state/federal prison and assaulting the prison guards/corrections officers?

[vitruvian]

Tony runs SHIELD. Anyone gives him any trouble and he could have them vanished quite easily-as he tried to do to She-Hulk and did do to the Hulk.

So, if some folks from the SEC show up on the helicarrier or the Stark corporate offices, he's going to have them disappear? That would just be compounding his crimes with kidnapping and obstruction of justice charges once their superiors figure out they've disappeared, and he would immediately become a fugitive from the federal government, since it has been shown that SHIELD doesn't have jurisdiction over US agencies.

Not to mention that this approach to dealing with the problem makes Stark out to be an even greater villain than most of the anti-SHRA crew have ever suggested. Vanish federal agents in the pursuit of their duty? There's no way he could ever claim to be a hero after that.

[Mark_S]

Honestly, I think you are giving way too much credibility to the online community. I very much doubt any body is going to care what we are saying. Assuming, they even know what is being said. Hell, I'm on here a lot and I barely care what anyone says. The majority of people who will want to see the movie will go to a movie critic for a review of it. If Marvel has learned anything its that the movies have almost no correlation to comics when it comes to their respective fans.

I don't think so. There are numerous fan sights out there devoted to movie reviews, and there is also the usenet newgroups. If you are planning to spend 8 to 20 dollars on a movie you have to plan and there are those who consider main stream reviewers hired hawkers for the studios. Word on mouth on the internet can make or break a movie. It can mean the difference between going to see the movie or skipping it and waiting for the dvd, the difference between a blockbuster opening weekend and a sucessfull opening weekend. Why do you think the movie studios started to create special previews to show at comic book and science fiction conventions? Or releasing previews on line. The net is millions of people reading, not just typing away. If you are thinking of going to a movie you could google "Iron Man" and "Movie" and "Review" and what if you do that and one of the sights that comes up is a sight like this one, where Tony defenders/attackers are going at it? It might not influence you going to the movie, but it will make you think twice about taking your kids to the movie since after the movie they might want the comic. In many ways the movie is a comercial for the comic just as the comic is the add for the comercial. A superficial reading of Tony's activities-what ever their reasons-is not going to be something that parents will consider heroic and suitable reading material for kids.

Mark_S

[jackolover]

As an aside what do you think the Cosmic races will do when they figure out that Its Pyms invention that is wiping them out? The look on his face when told would be worth breaking my commitment not to by anymore 616 comics for one issue.

What Pym invention that is wiping out cosmic races?

[jackolover]

I don't think it is blowing what Marvel is doing by making its "heroes" into murderers. The hallmark of heroes in Marvel , with the exception of the Soldier types of Punisher and Wolverine did not willing kill, now Marvels mainline heroes do things like send Assassins after diplomats.

If Civil War never happened, would Sally Floyd have ever seen the light of day?

I think the likes of Maria Hill and Sally Floyd were the frustration of the law police force, who had to bow and scrape with offenders, and be polite to stars of the AFL, the NBL and screen. When these people are drunk or carrying on like big freaks, cops have had to be all by the book.

Once Maria Hill came along, she said, "I know who you are, you big superhero superstar. And you disgust me. I'm throwing you in jail, because you're a no good, useless piece of SH*T". Something all cops would like to say but their superiors wouldn't let them. Well, now the shoes on the other foot and MU law enforcement is shouting at the metas to their faces, and Stark, Richards and Pym want to be in on the action on that side. They don't want to be the targets of enforcement. They want to be the brutal enforcement and what it's become. That's why Tony Stark can do the things he can.

[Mark_S]

So, if some folks from the SEC show up on the helicarrier or the Stark corporate offices, he's going to have them disappear? That would just be compounding his crimes with kidnapping and obstruction of justice charges once their superiors figure out they've disappeared, and he would immediately become a fugitive from the federal government, since it has been shown that SHIELD doesn't have jurisdiction over US agencies.

Not to mention that this approach to dealing with the problem makes Stark out to be an even greater villain than most of the anti-SHRA crew have ever suggested. Vanish federal agents in the pursuit of their duty? There's no way he could ever claim to be a hero after that.

Can he claim to be a hero after all of this? Is there any crime Tony hasn't done in persuit of his goals? Even though most of his defenders can give reasons for all of his actions Tony still did them.

And you underestimate when I said 'vanish'. By vanish I mean vanish completely. No records of their investigation... nothing. Tony could replace them with LMD's, have the robots conclude there is no crime and then have the robots 'die' in an accident while the originals are either killed outright or given false villain id's and placed in the negative zone prison.

Mark_S

[Mark_S]

If Civil War never happened, would Sally Floyd have ever seen the light of day?

I think the likes of Maria Hill and Sally Floyd were the frustration of the law police force, who had to bow and scrape with offenders, and be polite to stars of the AFL, the NBL and screen. When these people are drunk or carrying on like big freaks, cops have had to be all by the book.

Once Maria Hill came along, she said, "I know who you are, you big superhero superstar. And you disgust me. I'm throwing you in jail, because you're a no good, useless piece of SH*T". Something all cops would like to say but their superiors wouldn't let them. Well, now the shoes on the other foot and MU law enforcement is shouting at the metas to their faces, and Stark, Richards and Pym want to be in on the action on that side. They don't want to be the targets of enforcement. They want to be the brutal enforcement and what it's become. That's why Tony Stark can do the things he can.


Which I can easily understand. Jealousy maybe a large part of Hill and Floyd's attitude. And maybe they've had bad experiences with heroes in the past. But their attitude is basicaly that the beings who have risk so much for so many, suffered so much, are worthless and should at the very least be locked up and at the most be shot on sight.
Sally's beef with Cap was that he represented an American ideal that she didn't want any part of. She liked her currupt, banal, superficial America and she resented the fact that someone like him said by his very prescense that it wasn't as good as it could be. Maybe Hill had that same feeling, maybe like Sally she didn't want things better, she just wanted to keep the America she felt comfortable with.

Mark_S

[DeadXMan]

What Pym invention that is wiping out cosmic races?

Ultron.

on the subject of the I'M Movie. I know I'm gonna see it. Hopefully they didn't neuter Tony like the did with Doom:mad:

[jackolover]

As an aside what do you think the Cosmic races will do when they figure out that Its Pyms invention that is wiping them out? The look on his face when told would be work breaking my commitment not to by anymore 616 comics for one issue.

Yeah, well, if it is Ultron you're talking about, then if Tony Stark could get some control over her, she could be a good asset in a fight with the skrulls. She can shut down all communications and let lose all nukes, an who knows what else. An Ultron/Stark partnership would be some awesome weapon.

[psm]

I don't think so. There are numerous fan sights out there devoted to movie reviews, and there is also the usenet newsgroups. If you are planning to spend 8 to 20 dollars on a movie you have to plan and there are those who consider main stream reviewers hired hawkers for the studios. Word on mouth on the internet can make or break a movie. It can mean the difference between going to see the movie or skipping it and waiting for the dvd, the difference between a blockbuster opening weekend and a successful opening weekend. Why do you think the movie studios started to create special previews to show at comic book and science fiction conventions? Or releasing previews on line. The net is millions of people reading, not just typing away. If you are thinking of going to a movie you could google "Iron Man" and "Movie" and "Review" and what if you do that and one of the sights that comes up is a sight like this one, where Tony defenders/attackers are going at it? It might not influence you going to the movie, but it will make you think twice about taking your kids to the movie since after the movie they might want the comic. In many ways the movie is a commercial for the comic just as the comic is the add for the commercial. A superficial reading of Tony's activities-what ever their reasons-is not going to be something that parents will consider heroic and suitable reading material for kids.

Mark_S

Unfortunately, we are both espousing our opinions with no facts to back it up. So basically, we disagree and I guess we'll have to leave it at that.

Still have to question the reasoning behind not taking your kids to see a movie because you don't want them to buy the comic. If you don't want them to buy the comic you tell them no. Plus, there is Marvel adventures which is geared for kids (and probably more interesting to them than the faux politics in the regular series). It just seems a bit of a stretch.

[mikekerr3]

Yeah, well, if it is Ultron you're talking about, then if Tony Stark could get some control over her, she could be a good asset in a fight with the skrulls. She can shut down all communications and let lose all nukes, an who knows what else. An Ultron/Stark partnership would be some awesome weapon.

The Ultron In the Cosmic adventures make the one fighting te advengers look like a toy. It is enslaving then wipeing out whole races with very advanced tech.

Do to the nature of its tech and extremis i would expect it to do the cdontollling it has already enslaved people like Ronan and most of the Kree population. I is slowly winnig a barrle agaist the Worldnind whick is fat out of any earth heroes league, Except maybe for Strange.

[jackolover]

The Ultron In the Cosmic adventures make the one fighting the avengers look like a toy. It is enslaving then wiping out whole races with very advanced tech.

Do to the nature of its tech and extremis i would expect it to do the controlling it has already enslaved people like Ronan and most of the Kree population. I is slowly winning a battle against the Worldnind which is flat out of any earth heroes league, Except maybe for Strange.

Where is this going on, in an Annihilation book currently running?

[mikekerr3]

Where is this going on, in an Annihilation book currently running?

The current Annihilation book. I think it is very good. they even brought bacl Blastar.

[Capt Hunter]

Where is this going on, in an Annihilation book currently running?

All hell has broken lose in the cosmic highways of the marvel universe..... and Ultron is in the middle of all of it.... Annihilation Conquest..... one of the best series/ crossovers this year.... if that is your sort of thing....

here is a preview cover for Issue #5

http://comicsmedia.ign.com/comics/image/article/840/840988/annihilation-conquest-20071211072531120.jpg

[mikekerr3]

All hell has broken lose in the cosmic highways of the marvel universe..... and Ultron is in the middle of all of it.... Annihilation Conquest..... one of the best series/ crossovers this year.... if that is your sort of thing....

here is a preview cover for Issue #5

http://comicsmedia.ign.com/comics/image/article/840/840988/annihilation-conquest-20071211072531120.jpg

Just Remember Hank Pym is responsible for this.

[jackolover]

Just Remember Hank Pym is responsible for this.

I'm a little confused. How can this Ultron (the old version) exist elsewhere, when the She-Ultron will be defeated in the Mighty Avengers?

[XPac]

I'm a little confused. How can this Ultron (the old version) exist elsewhere, when the She-Ultron will be defeated in the Mighty Avengers?

It may make more sense once we actually see how the She-Ultron story plays out. We have to remember that the Ultron MA storyline was their very first mission, so lord only knows how much time could have passed since them.

Also, there is a presedence to there being more than 1 active Ultron operating at the same time. In West Coast Avengers, Ultron 11 and 12 were both alive at the same time and ended up duking it out.

[StoneGold]

I'm a little confused. How can this Ultron (the old version) exist elsewhere, when the She-Ultron will be defeated in the Mighty Avengers?

It occurs some time significantly after.

[vitruvian]

And you underestimate when I said 'vanish'. By vanish I mean vanish completely. No records of their investigation... nothing. Tony could replace them with LMD's, have the robots conclude there is no crime and then have the robots 'die' in an accident while the originals are either killed outright or given false villain id's and placed in the negative zone prison.

Here I think you overestimate what his position as director of SHIELD allows him to actually do. If SHIELD doesn't have access to all the information held by the Committee on Superhuman Activities (and they don't, according to Avengers: Initiative), I see no reason why they would have that access for other federal agencies such as the SEC.

Sure, Stark could probably use his Extremis powers to wipe away the trail of his misdeeds and any record of the agents' investigation. However, there are several problems with this:

1) Such an action would probably leave a trail of its own, that some master hacker could still find. Don't the feds have the former Machinesmith and several like him on their payroll still?

2) Removing *records* of the investigation wouldn't remove the agents' supervisors' memories of being told that they were doing an investigation. The LMD route may be feasible (hey! LMDs vs. Skrulls for world domination!), but presumably customizing an LMD requires some technical support, meaning there would be a number of SHIELD agents aware of this tactic. Even assuming that there exist *no* principled SHIELD agents (apart from Dugan, Jones, and maybe Sitwell), it's still well-established that there are factions within SHIELD that would like to see Stark gone, a sufficient reason to avoid disclosures that could lead to whistle-blowing.

3) If Stark had the capability to wipe the stock records and/or stymie any investigation, it's not particularly clear why he didn't do so before one semi-competent and one incompetent reporter managed to find him out.

[mikekerr3]

Here I think you overestimate what his position as director of SHIELD allows him to actually do. If SHIELD doesn't have access to all the information held by the Committee on Superhuman Activities (and they don't, according to Avengers: Initiative), I see no reason why they would have that access for other federal agencies such as the SEC.

Sure, Stark could probably use his Extremis powers to wipe away the trail of his misdeeds and any record of the agents' investigation. However, there are several problems with this:

1) Such an action would probably leave a trail of its own, that some master hacker could still find. Don't the feds have the former Machinesmith and several like him on their payroll still?

2) Removing *records* of the investigation wouldn't remove the agents' supervisors' memories of being told that they were doing an investigation. The LMD route may be feasible (hey! LMDs vs. Skrulls for world domination!), but presumably customizing an LMD requires some technical support, meaning there would be a number of SHIELD agents aware of this tactic. Even assuming that there exist *no* principled SHIELD agents (apart from Dugan, Jones, and maybe Sitwell), it's still well-established that there are factions within SHIELD that would like to see Stark gone, a sufficient reason to avoid disclosures that could lead to whistle-blowing.

3) If Stark had the capability to wipe the stock records and/or stymie any investigation, it's not particularly clear why he didn't do so before one semi-competent and one incompetent reporter managed to find him out.

With a government as corrupt as the one shown all it would take is a phone call and the investigation would disappear. The government in the MU murfers wholesale. Shutting down an investigation would be easy.

[vitruvian]

With a government as corrupt as the one shown all it would take is a phone call and the investigation would disappear. The government in the MU murfers wholesale. Shutting down an investigation would be easy.

Even if there are no competent and principled politicians or public employees in the MU, you're assuming that Tony Stark has no political enemies who would let an investigation continue for their own reasons. I don't think that's the case; he's got plenty of opposition. Gyrich, for one, has practically taken over Camp Hammond and probably wouldn't mind downsizing SHIELD in general and Stark specifically, in favor of having the CSA control everything.

[mikekerr3]

Even if there are no competent and principled politicians or public employees in the MU, you're assuming that Tony Stark has no political enemies who would let an investigation continue for their own reasons. I don't think that's the case; he's got plenty of opposition. Gyrich, for one, has practically taken over Camp Hammond and probably wouldn't mind downsizing SHIELD in general and Stark specifically, in favor of having the CSA control everything.

As a billionair assassin he could definitely "make an offer that you can't refuse" or one that Gynrich can't top.

I don't think he would murder someone to protect himself though. He only murders to incite fear in the general public for political reasons.

Gyrich wouldn't move against Stark this soon unless he could rig another training accident. Stark is the face of the Initiative and the SHRA, damaging him damages both. Gynrich would dirty the waters more slowly

I think that was what the CD was for hope it works.

[Zacharius]

Here is one suggestion from RPG NET:

The Pro-Regs were only made to win by author fiat b/c Marvel shunned from challenging the ingrained patriotic cliches of US readers by showing US government as a defeated nation. The obvious ending of Civil War would have been Anti-Reg supers defeat Pro-Reg faction, defeat Shield and US Army, the govenrment is forced to surrender, rebellious supers dictate terms of peace to the defeated US nation under duress, which the government and public has to accept for the reestablishment of peace and the continuation of democracy and majority self-rule. US is treated just like the South at the end of RL Civil War, or Germany/Japan after WWII. Unnumerable nations in history have survived being defeated and dictated terms of surrender, so no need to "tear down the whole structure". IMO, terms of peace under that scenario, would include repeal of SHRA, constitutional amendments to forbid any form of discrimination for supers and mutants, the right of supers to be tried by juries of their peers, a third chamber of congress with veto power made up of super representatives. By allowing legal slavery for supers to come to pass, the normals would have abundantly showed to it cannot be trusted to rule over supers without powerful checks and balances to majority rule. Many nations with divisive ethnic conflicts established constitutional schemes for power sharing with minorities.(Irioth)


That would have been my preference.

If creating superhuman utopia would make boring stories, then there is always dystopia option.

Just like Wildstorm: "power corrupts and absolute power is kinda neat"

[Tobias Drake]

The Pro-Regs were only made to win by author fiat b/c Marvel shunned from challenging the ingrained patriotic cliches of US readers by showing US government as a defeated nation. The obvious ending of Civil War would have been Anti-Reg supers defeat Pro-Reg faction, defeat Shield and US Army, the govenrment is forced to surrender, rebellious supers dictate terms of peace to the defeated US nation under duress, which the government and public has to accept for the reestablishment of peace and the continuation of democracy and majority self-rule. US is treated just like the South at the end of RL Civil War, or Germany/Japan after WWII. Unnumerable nations in history have survived being defeated and dictated terms of surrender, so no need to "tear down the whole structure". IMO, terms of peace under that scenario, would include repeal of SHRA, constitutional amendments to forbid any form of discrimination for supers and mutants, the right of supers to be tried by juries of their peers, a third chamber of congress with veto power made up of super representatives. By allowing legal slavery for supers to come to pass, the normals would have abundantly showed to it cannot be trusted to rule over supers without powerful checks and balances to majority rule. Many nations with divisive ethnic conflicts established constitutional schemes for power sharing with minorities.(Irioth)

Or, in short, violent conquest, segregation, and fascism; by creating a separate congressional house solely to cater to the will of metahumans, metahumans are in essence segregating themselves completely from normals. They are driving a wedge between themselves and the normal citizens of the country and saying that they deserve special treatment, simply on the grounds that they are stronger, therefore there is nothing you can do to stop them from having it. That is a very slippery slope to tyrannical rule and oppression, and will further increase the fear of the normals, which will cause escalation of the problem as a whole. You can argue that they can go ahead and be afraid because there's nothing they can do about it, but then, that's not democracy. That's tyranny and oppression.

It is a very short, very steep slide down from there to absolute, outright war between normals and metahumans that will never end until one side is completely annihilated. Probably the normals. And then superheroes have destroyed the very people they fought to protect for so long.

[Zacharius]

It is a very short, very steep slide down from there to absolute, outright war between normals and metahumans that will never end until one side is completely annihilated. Probably the normals. And then superheroes have destroyed the very people they fought to protect for so long.

And the problem with that is ?


The vast majority of the population of Marvel is bigoted, hypocritical and hateful and will form a mob at the drop of a hat. Sally Floyd is pretty much a perfect example of the average MU citizen. It's a wonder heroes actually defend them.
(Red Orion)

Originally in DC universe being a hero made some sense; public accepted supers and genre required good guys vs bad guys.

Then Stan Lee created Marvel Universe with heroes who had feet of clay.
It was still good guys vs bad guys because it was superhero genre.

But one thing was ignored; if Marvel Universe is so crappy, it makes no sense to be a good guy anymore.

Spider-Man and X-men are hated and feared.

Defenders don´t like humans that much.

Even Avengers and FF get problems from government and public.

Since it was escapism, illogical parts were ignored.

Mark Millar wanted pseudo-realism.So be it.

Pseudorealism means that heroism ceases to exist, superhumans become aristocrats and normals can be totally subjugated serfs.

Biggest PIS in Marvel is being a hero at all.

[Tobias Drake]

And the problem with that is ?




Originally in DC universe being a hero made some sense; public accepted supers and genre required good guys vs bad guys.

Then Stan Lee created Marvel Universe with heroes who had feet of clay.
It was still good guys vs bad guys because it was superhero genre.

But one thing was ignored; if Marvel Universe is so crappy, it makes no sense to be a good guy anymore.

Spider-Man and X-men are hated and feared.

Defenders don´t like humans that much.

Even Avengers and FF get problems from government and public.

Since it was escapism, illogical parts were ignored.

Mark Millar wanted pseudo-realism.So be it.

Pseudorealism means that heroism ceases to exist, superhumans become aristocrats and normals can be totally subjugated serfs.

Biggest PIS in Marvel is being a hero at all.

If you don't see a problem with Spider-Man killing everyone who opposes him, enforcing his own will with an iron fist, and putting normal human beings into concentration camps for the vile sin of being weaker than him, then I don't know what to tell you. Everything that is wrong with that scenario should go without saying.

[Mark_S]

If you don't see a problem with Spider-Man killing everyone who opposes him, enforcing his own will with an iron fist, and putting normal human beings into concentration camps for the vile sin of being weaker than him, then I don't know what to tell you. Everything that is wrong with that scenario should go without saying.

With a few mild variations that is pretty much what Tony did.

I can't see a superhuman aristocracy ruling a normal population, at least not unless we go back to House of M. The vital element missing is that very few heroes in the mu want to rule.

Mark_S

[Tobias Drake]

With a few mild variations that is pretty much what Tony did.

Except, y'know, for the part where he didn't.

I can't see a superhuman aristocracy ruling a normal population, at least not unless we go back to House of M. The vital element missing is that very few heroes in the mu want to rule.

Mark_S

A superhuman aristocracy ruling a normal population would be the antagonist. Superheroes as a whole would be supervillains, every last one of them who stands with the aristocracy. It would be a complete shift in the dynamic, if they all decided to enslave the world to their will. It would be stories about humans standing up against their superhuman oppressors. Ordinary people finding ways to fight back against their metahuman overlords. The entire dynamic would be changed completely.

[Zacharius]

If you don't see a problem with Spider-Man killing everyone who opposes him, enforcing his own will with an iron fist, and putting normal human beings into concentration camps for the vile sin of being weaker than him, then I don't know what to tell you. Everything that is wrong with that scenario should go without saying.

If only choices are going to a concentration camp or putting enemy side there.

In MU, only choices are being a bully or a wimp.

Superheroes as a whole would be supervillains, every last one of them who stands with the aristocracy.

Just like Wildstorm, superhumans would not be heroes or villains but demigods.

It would be stories about humans standing up against their superhuman oppressors. Ordinary people finding ways to fight back against their metahuman overlords. The entire dynamic would be changed completely.

It would be demigods vs demigods. Humans would be reduced to near-irrelevance and since they are hate-filled psychos in MU they deserve no better anymore.

Here is a quote from another forum:

It's interesting that, even with *Lex Luthor as President,* the US government (and people) never became as draconian and dictatorial and predjudiced as it has been in the Marvelverse for the last 30-odd years!

The Marvel universe is completely lopsided. Millions of Americans (and people all over the world, apparently, since they were shown operating in other countries) supported Project Wideawake and Operation Zero Tolerance, allowing their own children to be made into mutant-hunting killer robots. Mutant-bashing riots were depicted in Boston, of all places, which is like ground zero for hippie liberal peaceniks (well, San Francisco and the entire state of Vermont would probably rate higher on the 'places least likely to have race riots' category, but still, *Boston?*).(Setothes)

[Tobias Drake]

If only choices are going to a concentration camp or putting enemy side there.

In MU, only choices are being a bully or a wimp.



Just like Wildstorm, superhumans would not be heroes or villains but demigods.



It would be demigods vs demigods. Humans would be reduced to near-irrelevance and since they are hate-filled psychos in MU they deserve no better anymore.

There are better options. Some people are just to prone to violence and hate to realize them. As I've said many times, the problem is that people are afraid, and they have every right to be after 60+ years of metahumans destroying their world, killing people, and ruining lives with constant, endless violence. They have every right to be afraid right now, when metahumans essentially ARE demigods, unrestrained, uncontrolled, raining death and destruction upon their city and nothing is being done about it save for a handful of demigods that have taken it upon themselves to cause further death and destruction in perpetually-failed, reactionary battles that only take place after the damage is done and often result in even MORE damage. Can you imagine what it must be like to be an ordinary citizen in the MU? Every time you step out the door, you could be killed by the Rhino barreling through buildings to get away from the police, or god knows what else.

People are afraid and they have every right to be. If they're responding to that fear with anger and malice, then good. That's human nature, and they have every right to be angry after this situation has gotten completely out of hand and has become increasingly worse with every year that passes.

Here is a quote from another forum:

You lost me at

"Millions of Americans (and people all over the world, apparently, since they were shown operating in other countries) supported Project Wideawake"

That's fairly impressive considering that no one but Tony Stark and possibly Nick Fury seemed to know about it outside Congress.

[Agent_Torpor]

Crime #1 : Never took advantage of a little inter-office nookie with Pepper Potts.

[Brian M.]

Tony Stark '08

[Mark_S]

There are better options. Some people are just to prone to violence and hate to realize them. As I've said many times, the problem is that people are afraid, and they have every right to be after 60+ years of metahumans destroying their world, killing people, and ruining lives with constant, endless violence. They have every right to be afraid right now, when metahumans essentially ARE demigods, unrestrained, uncontrolled, raining death and destruction upon their city and nothing is being done about it save for a handful of demigods that have taken it upon themselves to cause further death and destruction in perpetually-failed, reactionary battles that only take place after the damage is done and often result in even MORE damage. Can you imagine what it must be like to be an ordinary citizen in the MU? Every time you step out the door, you could be killed by the Rhino barreling through buildings to get away from the police, or god knows what else.

People are afraid and they have every right to be. If they're responding to that fear with anger and malice, then good. That's human nature, and they have every right to be angry after this situation has gotten completely out of hand and has become increasingly worse with every year that passes.


But to respond to the superhero who saves you in the same way as the supervillain who attacks? That is not fear, that is idiocy. If the Rhino throws a car at a crowd and Spiderman manages to stop the car before it hits them and they then consider him the same as the Rhino then the normal people in the mu deserve to be left to the supervillains.


Except, y'know, for the part where he didn't.


Yes he did.

And before you say "no he didn't"

Yes he did (+ infinity) :p

Mark_S

[Omega Alpha]

Tony Stark's crime was raping my childhood. That BASTARD!

[XPac]

People are afraid and they have every right to be. If they're responding to that fear with anger and malice, then good.

The morons responding with malice and anger should be thankful the superheroes are above that and don't respond in mind.

Fear is one thing but turning your anger and malice at the very thing that's responsible for you being alive right now is stupid. Human Torch has helped save the world dozens of times... to attack him because of Stamford (something he was completely uninvolved in) demonstrates a level of stupidity and ingratitude beyond description.

Torch would have had a legal right to defend himself... but he didn't because unlike those morons he knows it's WRONG violenty act out with anger and malice. Again, the mindless masses should be thankful the heroes are above the sort of behavior you condone here.

[Tobias Drake]

But to respond to the superhero who saves you in the same way as the supervillain who attacks? That is not fear, that is idiocy. If the Rhino throws a car at a crowd and Spiderman manages to stop the car before it hits them and they then consider him the same as the Rhino then the normal people in the mu deserve to be left to the supervillains.

And that one single person that he saved does consider him a hero and is grateful, though is no less afraid of the environment that required it. While the entire rest of the city just sees all the destruction left in the wake of two metahumans wrapped in the same endless conflict that has destroyed so many lives and left so much damage already.

Yes he did.

And before you say "no he didn't"

Yes he did (+ infinity)

Well, you certainly told me. :p

The morons responding with malice and anger should be thankful the superheroes are above that and don't respond in mind.

Fear is one thing but turning your anger and malice at the very thing that's responsible for you being alive right now is stupid. Human Torch has helped save the world dozens of times... to attack him because of Stamford (something he was completely uninvolved in) demonstrates a level of stupidity and ingratitude beyond description.

Torch would have had a legal right to defend himself... but he didn't because unlike those morons he knows it's WRONG violenty act out with anger and malice. Again, the mindless masses should be thankful the heroes are above the sort of behavior you condone here.

I never said I condoned it. People are scared and they are prone to doing stupid things when they're scared. Fear causes people to act in ways they wouldn't otherwise. We've hit the critical phase. We've hit "general panic" and nobody knows what to do about it, because the problem has gotten so bad that people are responding in harsh, violent ways simply because they don't know what else to do. It's not smart, it's not logical, and it's not good. It's just human.

Like I've stated repeatedly, there are two directions this can go. One is to alleviate the people's fears. Help calm the public and teach them to trust the metahumans among them. But that will never happen so long as supervillains are killing their neighbors and destroying cities on a daily basis and so long as the few who can protect them continue to be unknown entities that, so far as they know, may not be any better than the supervillains. How is Joe Average supposed to know that Spider-Man isn't a violent psychopath and is actually a nerd with a heart of gold? He doesn't. He doesn't know anything about Spider-Man other than that he's constantly tearing up parts of the city in violent battles with other metahumans.

The other is to sit back and let things escalate until they reach the breaking point and something terrible happens, at which point the damage becomes irreparable and everyone will suffer for it because nobody was willing to do anything to stop it.

[XPac]

I never said I condoned it. People are scared and they are prone to doing stupid things when they're scared. Fear causes people to act in ways they wouldn't otherwise. We've hit the critical phase. We've hit "general panic" and nobody knows what to do about it, because the problem has gotten so bad that people are responding in harsh, violent ways simply because they don't know what else to do. It's not smart, it's not logical, and it's not good. It's just human.

Like I've stated repeatedly, there are two directions this can go. One is to alleviate the people's fears. Help calm the public and teach them to trust the metahumans among them. But that will never happen so long as supervillains are killing their neighbors and destroying cities on a daily basis and so long as the few who can protect them continue to be unknown entities that, so far as they know, may not be any better than the supervillains. How is Joe Average supposed to know that Spider-Man isn't a violent psychopath and is actually a nerd with a heart of gold? He doesn't. He doesn't know anything about Spider-Man other than that he's constantly tearing up parts of the city in violent battles with other metahumans.

The other is to sit back and let things escalate until they reach the breaking point and something terrible happens, at which point the damage becomes irreparable and everyone will suffer for it because nobody was willing to do anything to stop it.

Doesn't you saying "then good" kind of imply you condone it? You're saying it's good to feel that way.

And as I've said many times... I can understand them thinking Spider-Man is menace. But there's not a reason in the world to think the same about Human Torch when they attack and hospitalized him. If the Human Torch's actions over the past few decades haven't earned him some level of the benefit of the doubt, I'm honestly not sure what will. He wears no mask. People know his name. They know his address, and he's still attacked and hospitalized by a bunch of ungrateful morons that wanted to attack him for something he had absolutely nothing to do with.

As far as teaching the public to trust the heroes.... I don't fault the concept. I fault the execution. The public are being taught to trust the heroes through lies and manipulation. People like Stark basically justify the mistrust the public has for the heroes.

[Harold of the Rocks]

Well, if you want to get into the Clone Thor (I refuse to call him Clor. That's a stupid name.) You have

Cloning. (I'm pretty sure it's currently illegal)
Slaverly.
You could make arguements for surgery without concert.
Possibly defacing a relegious icon (I'm not quite sure about that, but Thor IS a god)
Defemation of character
Identity Theft.


Yes, but Tony is the one standing up saying superheroes should be accountable for what they do.

Slavery, surgery w/o consent, defamation of character and identity theft are crimes when committed against human beings. Thor and Clone Thor are neither. A god or alien (whatever the 'legal' status of Thor is) and a cyborg cannot legally be the victims of these crimes.

I'm pretty sure Tony jaywalked in Civil War #4 also. Let's not forget to add that to the laundry list of acts that prove how evil he is...

[Mark_S]

There is also the simple fact that no one seems to be at all bothered by the fact that that supervillains tend to walk in and out of prison virtually at will. Shouldn't some of that anger be directed toward a prison system that doesn't work and judges who can't understand that someone who throws a building at another person probably doesn't deserve a light sentence? Where is the anger for the supervillains?

And as we saw in NA recently nothing really has changed. The superheroes catch the supervillains, the authorities (SHIELD in this case) lets them escape. At this point if the Hood wasn't going to go after the NA anyway I'd say that they should send a nice letter to the MA. In the letter they can detail all the know about the Hood and tell them politely that this supervillain is for them, the NA won't bother to take him down again because what is the point? SHIELD doesn't seem to have any real ability to hold anyone. The only time SHIELD seems to be effective is when it is persuing and capturing superheroes, supervillains seem to be out of their league.

And if I was truly an object of fear after the 51rst time saving the city/world or someones life then I really would give serious thought to joining the skrulls. Humanity just wouldn't seem worth the effort to me.

Mark_S

[Tobias Drake]

There is also the simple fact that no one seems to be at all bothered by the fact that that supervillains tend to walk in and out of prison virtually at will. Shouldn't some of that anger be directed toward a prison system that doesn't work and judges who can't understand that someone who throws a building at another person probably doesn't deserve a light sentence? Where is the anger for the supervillains?

And as we saw in NA recently nothing really has changed. The superheroes catch the supervillains, the authorities (SHIELD in this case) lets them escape. At this point if the Hood wasn't going to go after the NA anyway I'd say that they should send a nice letter to the MA. In the letter they can detail all the know about the Hood and tell them politely that this supervillain is for them, the NA won't bother to take him down again because what is the point? SHIELD doesn't seem to have any real ability to hold anyone. The only time SHIELD seems to be effective is when it is persuing and capturing superheroes, supervillains seem to be out of their league.

And if I was truly an object of fear after the 51rst time saving the city/world or someones life then I really would give serious thought to joining the skrulls. Humanity just wouldn't seem worth the effort to me.

Mark_S

Let me ask you something: how many people would actually KNOW you saved the city? How many times does Spider-Man stick around, shake hands with the press, hand the criminal over to police custody? How many times has he shown up in court to testify? And how often has he just burst in on the supervillain, beat him up, knocked him out, and threw him out a window, and left the situation to take care of itself?

[CMBMOOL]

There is also the simple fact that no one seems to be at all bothered by the fact that that supervillains tend to walk in and out of prison virtually at will. Shouldn't some of that anger be directed toward a prison system that doesn't work and judges who can't understand that someone who throws a building at another person probably doesn't deserve a light sentence? Where is the anger for the supervillains?

And as we saw in NA recently nothing really has changed. The superheroes catch the supervillains, the authorities (SHIELD in this case) lets them escape. At this point if the Hood wasn't going to go after the NA anyway I'd say that they should send a nice letter to the MA. In the letter they can detail all the know about the Hood and tell them politely that this supervillain is for them, the NA won't bother to take him down again because what is the point? SHIELD doesn't seem to have any real ability to hold anyone. The only time SHIELD seems to be effective is when it is persuing and capturing superheroes, supervillains seem to be out of their league.

And if I was truly an object of fear after the 51rst time saving the city/world or someones life then I really would give serious thought to joining the skrulls. Humanity just wouldn't seem worth the effort to me.

Mark_S

Well it seems like the NA Annual may be taken place after the events of World War Hulk.

So it may have been a few days since we last seen the team together. :o

[mikekerr3]

Slavery, surgery w/o consent, defamation of character and identity theft are crimes when committed against human beings. Thor and Clone Thor are neither. A god or alien (whatever the 'legal' status of Thor is) and a cyborg cannot legally be the victims of these crimes.

I'm pretty sure Tony jaywalked in Civil War #4 also. Let's not forget to add that to the laundry list of acts that prove how evil he is...

So Thor has no legal protections, sound like Georgia in 1935, If he is not protected by the Law he has no obligation to obey it. Thor is therefore bereft of any recourse but violence. Your reading gives Thor the right to persue justice on his own since no other means is available. Only Humans can be stand trial for crimes and I doubt you would want to try animal control laws on Thor. A slight variation of your thinking caused the MRA and the Sentries, Weapon X project and the concentration camps.

Any reading of the Law but Sentient=human for rights purposes would be an abomination. "I think therefore I am" should be the only criterion for rights.

But you just shot many of your Pro-reg compatriots in the foot. If Clor had no rights under the law, it had no right of self-defence. So the death of Bill Foster was murder by device. That covers weapons operating autonomously.

One good thing about a interpretation like this is I can hope Hank, Reed and Tony get to explain it to Thor, Hercules, Sersi and the other non-human Meta's. They won't because 2 Series would be running with the main character dead like Capt. America. But its a pleasant thought anyway.

[XPac]

Let me ask you something: how many people would actually KNOW you saved the city? How many times does Spider-Man stick around, shake hands with the press, hand the criminal over to police custody? How many times has he shown up in court to testify? And how often has he just burst in on the supervillain, beat him up, knocked him out, and threw him out a window, and left the situation to take care of itself?

Does that really justify focusing more of your anger on them than any party involved?

The criminal is STILL the cause. And the reason the heroes are needed at all is because the government is completley incapable of holding up their duty to the public. It's THEIR job to protect the public. A job they fail miserably at, necessiating the heroes involvement.

The villains are flat out evil, the government is ridiculously incompetent, while the heroes all things considered do an amazing good job. Even taking their faults into consideration, they're by far the lesser of 3 evils.

[vitruvian]

Slavery, surgery w/o consent, defamation of character and identity theft are crimes when committed against human beings. Thor and Clone Thor are neither. A god or alien (whatever the 'legal' status of Thor is) and a cyborg cannot legally be the victims of these crimes.

Not so. Aliens have received trials in the MU, Starfox for one; the same would probably apply to 'Asgardian gods'. If they didn't have civil rights in the justice system, there would have been no trial. Misty Knight is a cyborg, as is Tony Stark technically (seriously, having nanotech integrated into your body and armor hiding under your skin probably makes you more of a cyborg than Deathlok), and it's never been suggested that either one of them lacks civil rights.

[Tobias Drake]

Does that really justify focusing more of your anger on them than any party involved?

The criminal is STILL the cause. And the reason the heroes are needed at all is because the government is completley incapable of holding up their duty to the public. It's THEIR job to protect the public. A job they fail miserably at, necessiating the heroes involvement.

The villains are flat out evil, the government is ridiculously incompetent, while the heroes all things considered do an amazing good job. Even taking their faults into consideration, they're by far the lesser of 3 evils.

The Initiative tackles the problem of government being incapable of protecting the public by finally making superheroism a legitimate, legal course of action, and the SHRA tackles the problem of trying to alleviate the public's fears. Two birds, one stone.

[XPac]

The Initiative tackles the problem of government being incapable of protecting the public by finally making superheroism a legitimate, legal course of action, and the SHRA tackles the problem of trying to alleviate the public's fears. Two birds, one stone.

Perhaps, but again my point is that why are the superheroes being used as the scape goats for the problem when they're the ones doing their jobs right while the government are the ones being basically ineffective?

Again, the REAL cause of the problem are the villains. Venting anger at then is understandable. Being mad at government for their complete inability to do their job in protecting the people, while a bit harsh, makes far more sense than focusing your anger and frustration one the ones that are actualy getting the job done.

Why attack and hospitalize the Human Torch? The only answer to that is simple... they're a bunch if ingrateful morons. The fact that any hero should suffer simly because they're that stupid hardly seems fair.

[Tobias Drake]

Perhaps, but again my point is that why are the superheroes being used as the scape goats for the problem when they're the ones doing their jobs right while the government are the ones being basically ineffective?

Again, the REAL cause of the problem are the villains. Venting anger at then is understandable. Being mad at government for their complete inability to do their job in protecting the people, while a bit harsh, makes far more sense than focusing your anger and frustration one the ones that are actualy getting the job done.

Why attack and hospitalize the Human Torch? The only answer to that is simple... they're a bunch if ingrateful morons. The fact that any hero should suffer simly because they're that stupid hardly seems fair.

The Human Torch was attacked during a really sensitive time for people. Again, I'm not condoning nor justifying it. But Stamford had just happened; superheroes HADN'T done their job, they HAD made a reality TV show and 600 people died for it. And everyone was scared and everyone was angry. That very nearly could have been the breaking point from which there is no return, because in one flagrant show of irresponsibility, a team of superheroes threw up a flashing neon sign that said "Be afraid of us too".

Now, the momentary panic is something that passes with time. People will and have gotten over Stamford. But right then, the wound was very fresh and people thought the superheroes were just as dangerous as the supervillains. Again, I'm not condoning nor justifying it. It wasn't right what they did to Johnny Storm, and he did nothing to deserve it. But that's the way people are. They get scared, they panic, they do things they shouldn't, and then they regret it later.

[Drdmx]

The Human Torch was attacked during a really sensitive time for people. Again, I'm not condoning nor justifying it. But Stamford had just happened; superheroes HADN'T done their job, they HAD made a reality TV show and 600 people died for it. And everyone was scared and everyone was angry. That very nearly could have been the breaking point from which there is no return, because in one flagrant show of irresponsibility, a team of superheroes threw up a flashing neon sign that said "Be afraid of us too".

Now, the momentary panic is something that passes with time. People will and have gotten over Stamford. But right then, the wound was very fresh and people thought the superheroes were just as dangerous as the supervillains. Again, I'm not condoning nor justifying it. It wasn't right what they did to Johnny Storm, and he did nothing to deserve it. But that's the way people are. They get scared, they panic, they do things they shouldn't, and then they regret it later.



See to me that's just a rationalization or an excuse for people to act the way they do. Phrases like "flagrant show of irresponsibility" and "be afraid of us too" incite that it was intentional what happened at Stamford, and everyone knows it wasnt. If you can hold them accountable for what happens to human beings during what was obviously an accident, how can you disregard each of Tony's "flagrant show(s) of irresponsibility" which tell us to "be afraid of him too"?

[jackolover]

A superhuman aristocracy ruling a normal population would be the antagonist. Superheroes as a whole would be supervillains, every last one of them who stands with the aristocracy. It would be a complete shift in the dynamic, if they all decided to enslave the world to their will. It would be stories about humans standing up against their superhuman oppressors. Ordinary people finding ways to fight back against their metahuman overlords. The entire dynamic would be changed completely.

That kind of sounds like Judgement Day : Terminator 3, where the humans have to go undeground and hide from the metas, while mounting a resistance and taking the fight up to the machines.

Imagine a world, where Stark Tech has been given to the defeated normals, (so everyone could be a Tony Stark, now), and the metas just want to get on with life. The defeated normals have to segregate in the outerlying states, but still hatch plans for attacks on the New York stronghold. I've seen something like this in a Garth comic strip, where the Nazis won world war 2, and the defeated nations kept mounting saboteur operations, that got them closer and closer to Hitler, until he was assasinated, and the Reich broke down. If the metas ever went this way, and defeated the normals, this is the kind of mindset you would have to imagine the metas having. Like Nazis.

I don't see this happening with Marvel heroes. They don't want to control the government. They just want the legislative tols in place to stop the use of a law like the SHRA, and once that is accomplished, the normals can go on living as they have been. Granted the normals are not going to just strip away Registraion or the Initiative, so this will stay.

[jackolover]

I never said I condoned it. People are scared and they are prone to doing stupid things when they're scared. Fear causes people to act in ways they wouldn't otherwise. We've hit the critical phase. We've hit "general panic" and nobody knows what to do about it, because the problem has gotten so bad that people are responding in harsh, violent ways simply because they don't know what else to do. It's not smart, it's not logical, and it's not good. It's just human..

So let me get this straig