FF: Lee & Kirby versus Byrne

[ratzo]

I've been reading the Fantastic Four Essentials lately (just bought Volumes 4 and 5 and I'm halfway through 5). The John Byrne run was what first got me into comics, and being a kid back then, I had no real knowledge or appreciation of the Stan Lee & Jack Kirby run. Looking at Lee & Kirby now, I'm surprised at the degree to which it influenced the Byrne run. I mean, I always knew Byrne was devoted to them, long after I first read his run, but I was amazed to see how many elements of his run can be directly traced to Lee & Kirby, including peripheral characters, certain story themes, and covers (and not just the iconic issue 1; for example, I thought the cover for FF #257, with Dr. Doom's hand ripping it to shreds, was unique until I saw a similar cover with the Thing's hand in FF #92).

Om the one hand, I'm able to look at the Byrne run with a fresh perspective, which is nice. However, I always had this image of Byrne and his run in my mind, colored as it was by the perspective of childhood, as being so imaginative and creative and so unlike anything I had seen before, when in fact it was steeped in homages and references to Lee & Kirby (albeit with his own personal spin). I still love those stories; I always will, but I can't see them quite the same way anymore.

Byrne has long since fallen off any pedastal I may have put him on as a kid, for other reasons that I won't go into here (besides, I think we all know what those reasons are). But I think, if anything, this just makes me appreciate Lee & Kirby that much more. And while not every idea they had was golden, the rate at which they kept coming up with stuff, the skill with which they applied it, and the extent to which thier best ideas survived and thrived, is truly remarkable.

[icctrombone]

You're not wrong to appreciate Byrnes run. I grew up reading the kirby/Lee run in the 70's in reprint form and the subsequent runs. When Byrne came along it was a welcome and refreshing return to basics. There were only a few runs that were poor( Meonchs and Senciwtz ) but he returned it to the "wonder" that Lee? Kirby had created.

[Lone Ranger]

You are quite right in being amazed at the unbelievable creative output by Lee and Kirby and the 60s (same can be said for Lee & Ditko). It is incredible how quickly the entire mythology of the Marvel Universe was established. Within a couple of years, an incredible foundation was laid.

Byrne was on the FF during my key childhood reading years (I have a vivid memory of picking up #239 at a corner store, while riding my bike to a piano lesson), but it never really did much for me at the time. I loved the Avengers, Spidey, Daredevil and the X-Men at the time and I just was not interested in the FF. These stories just didn't resonate with me for one reason or another.

I've been re-visiting the Byrne issues via the Visionaries TPBs, which I picked up at a deep discount. I am enjoying them very, very much. I don't think much of Byrne as a person but his early 80s work was unbelievably strong. I've just started the 3rd volume, so I am not sure if the quality is maintained throughout but it is damn fine reading so far (except for #241 - see my blog)

[icctrombone]

Byrne hit his stride with his Galatus trilogy. I believe it was # 242- 244. Incredible stuff that involved ALL of the marvel NY based heroes against the big G. The greatness of his run lasted until 262 with the Trial of Galactus issues. Nice books involving Dr. Doom in the middle.

[ratzo]

I came in at issue 244, after all the fighting already happened. Didn't know entirely what was going on, but I was intrigued enough to want to know more. And for a long time afterward, whenever I would see the cover of issue 243, I'd just gape in awe and think, "I've GOT to have that issue." :eek:

[benday-dot]

I picked up the majority of the Byrne FF run via the dollar boxes at my LCS. I am certainly in accord with the rest of the posters here as to its exemplary quality. I don't know if its better than the more famous Claremont collaboration on X-Men, but I actually do prefer it. Maybe its because I take to the teams characters more than I do those merry mutants.

[md62]

Lee & Kirby came up with so many incredible ideas in their FF run. I also loved Byrne's run on the FF & most of his other stuff from the 80's (WCA, Namor, Superman).

[mrc1214]

I just brought Visionaries 2-5 today. I have the issues. Now I love the Lee/Kirby run. But IMO Byrne's is much better. Its really only cause of the dialogue though. I can not read much of Lee's scripts. I find them very tough to read and silly. And I can not stand Thing whining every single issue. But thats how they were supposed to be at the time.

[icctrombone]

There aren't many writers that can span eras and still be good. Byrne has had his day as a writer.

[JKCarrier]

I think Fantastic Four had some of Byrne's best artwork, but I could never get into his writing. A lot of his plots were just nonsensical. My favorite is the notorious "Sue becomes Malice" issue. Reed basically says, "Hmm... Sue really loves me, but she's acting like she hates me. Therefore, if I can get her to hate me, then she'll start loving me again. Brilliant!" I think J.B. was channeling Robert Kanigher when he came up with that one. :D Then there's the "Wendy's Friends" story, where the FF investigate a town that's being assaulted by demons... and just kind of shrug their shoulders and leave without actually trying to solve the problem. Wha? :confused:

[Sean Walsh]

It's been a few years since I've read Byrne's FF but I remember reading it with great fondness and appreciation for the flat-out fun he was putting in those stories. :)

And since I'd never really read Lee/Kirby before I read Byrne's stuff, I'd put them almost on the same pedestal because now I actually compare Lee/Kirby's FF to Byrne's.

[DDM]

Lee & Kirby came up with so many incredible ideas in their FF run. I also loved Byrne's run on the FF & most of his other stuff from the 80's (WCA, Namor, Superman).

Stan Lee & Jack Kirby's 100 issue run is the very bedrock for the entire Marvel Universe since they introduce so many new concepts such as both the aliens--the Skrulls & the Kree (tied together by Roy Thomas in The Avengers #89-97 in The Kree-Skrull War), the Inhumans, Him (later becoming Adam Warlock), Galactus & his Heralds, the Negative Zone & it's various villains, Agatha Harkess, etc etc...


John Byrne stays true to Lee & Kirby with his Fantastic Four & greatly expands upon Galactus' origins & his place in the universe with Eternity & Death, his transformation of Frankie Raye into the Human Torch & eventually Nova, Herald of Galactus with the exit of Terrax the Tamer, Susan Storm's transformation from Invisible Girl into Invisible Woman via her transformation into Malice, Mistress of Hate, & Doctor Doom's various stories...

[DDM]

I think Fantastic Four had some of Byrne's best artwork, but I could never get into his writing. A lot of his plots were just nonsensical. My favorite is the notorious "Sue becomes Malice" issue. Reed basically says, "Hmm... Sue really loves me, but she's acting like she hates me. Therefore, if I can get her to hate me, then she'll start loving me again. Brilliant!" I think J.B. was channeling Robert Kanigher when he came up with that one. :D Then there's the "Wendy's Friends" story, where the FF investigate a town that's being assaulted by demons... and just kind of shrug their shoulders and leave without actually trying to solve the problem. Wha? :confused:

Watch the 1960's Outer Limits & compare them to John Byrne's Fantastic Four stories. I can't help but see a parallel between the two.

[DJ Sloofus]

I haven't read Byrne's Fantastic Four in years, but I recently read that X-Men 'Omnibus' that collects a huge chunk of his X-Men run with Claremont. That held up much better than I thought it would. I would like to re-read the Fantastic Four stuff some day, too. That series definitely was a love-letter to Lee and Kirby, but it's the only other run of FF that I really enjoyed. He really nailed it.

[DDM]

I haven't read Byrne's Fantastic Four in years, but I recently read that X-Men 'Omnibus' that collects a huge chunk of his X-Men run with Claremont. That held up much better than I thought it would. I would like to re-read the Fantastic Four stuff some day, too. That series definitely was a love-letter to Lee and Kirby, but it's the only other run of FF that I really enjoyed. He really nailed it.

John Byrne's entire run is being collected in TPB's called Fantastic Four Visionaries: John Byrne Volumes #1-8. The final volume is due this month.

[Cei-U!]

I liked Byrne's FF despite the occasionally sloppy plotting (a fault he shared with Lee/Kirby) but he lost me when he concocted the Johnny/Alicia romance. From that point on, he seemed to make nothing but wrong turns and I abandoned the title (well, Marvel in general) before he did. Still, it was head and shoulders above *anything* offered by Thomas, Conway, Wein, Wolfman or Moench.

Cei-U!
I summon the Ultimate Nullifier!

[Imaginos666]

Byrne's run on this book is a real gem, even if it began to slide into muddled morality with the "We Have to Save Galactus" nonsense. Even then, it was still a lot of fun, right until the very end. Not sure what happened between him and Marvel (Man of Steel can't be solely responsible) but it's always ticked me off that he was omitted from the 300th issue anniversary.

The downside to this series is that it began Byrne's habit of pilfering Jack Kirby's creations, often re-writing continuity with "everything you know is wrong" stories (see Fourth World, The Demon, etc.)

In fairness, Kirby wasn't Byrne's only victim.

[Pixie_Solanas]

Byrne-tech just doesn't match up with WTF-inducing goodness that is Kirby-tech.

[Alex Dragon]

I haven't read much of Lee/Kirby's FF run but I'm aware of most of the important stories. Yeah, Byrne's run was enjoyable but from what I can tell really most of what he did was take most of the elements of the Lee/Kirby run update them and just take some of that stuff in a different direction. I think that takes talent too Stan and Jack did most of the heavy lifting and had the real creativity. I'm surprised that very few creators seem to be able to do a good FF book considering the amount of stuff Stan and Jack left there to work with.

[Kirk G]

Stan Lee & Jack Kirby's 100 issue run is the very bedrock for the entire Marvel Universe since they introduce so many new concepts such as both the aliens--the Skrulls & the Kree (tied together by Roy Thomas in The Avengers #89-97 in The Kree-Skrull War), the Inhumans, Him (later becoming Adam Warlock), Galactus & his Heralds, the Negative Zone & it's various villains, Agatha Harkess, etc etc...

...

Now, there's something you've touched on that intrigues me.

When you look at the major innovations of characters that Lee and Kirby introduced inthe FF, the vast majority of them occur during the later half of their run. With the exception of the Inhumans, who's early seed Medusa, was planted in #36... Almost all the notable cosmic characters occur during the second half.

IF you allow that the FF was a monthly book, then the first four years run #1-48, and the entire 102 issue run, (ignoring for a moment all the six annuals and the 108th issue) fall within an 8year span... 9, if you want to be generous and allow the time frame to run from 1961 to 1970.

So, the real meat occurs after the first three years, and before the last three years. In fact, if you look at that last Torgo/Skrull 4-parter as running from 89-93, you can almost say that Jack finished his 8 year run with that story, his swan song, as he huggs them all goodbye, when Ben embraces the other three when they come to rescue him.

Most folks agree that Kirby was just going through the motions for the solo 1-parter stories that followed during the last year... and with the exception of Agatha Harkness in 94, there is nothing worthwhile that happens. It just feels like the creativity that was Kirby's contribution, is missing...and Stan Lee is left on his own...coasting on the rep of the book. The artwork is smaller, the care and detail is missing, and Jack is putting his creative energy into the development of Orion of the New Gods.

I look at both periods of Lee & Kirby, and then Byrnes run of several years, as being to pilars of the Fantastic Four... both strong...and both solid. Some of the innovation that Byrne did (switching in She-Hulk, pairing Johnning and Alicia, making the Invisible Woman into Malice) seemed surprising at the time, but in the fullness of his plotting, it made sense... and I accepted his wrinkles as another golden age. I just wish that he would leave his series more cleanly, at a logical break point, instead of in mid-story, as he seems to do frequently.

[sheets]

I'm surprised that very few creators seem to be able to do a good FF book considering the amount of stuff Stan and Jack left there to work with.

I think when people look back at the Lee/Kirby FF, what they most fondly remember are the new characters and concepts introduced, so working with what "Stan and Jack left there" is actually part of the problem - the new creators need to focus more on creating great new ideas instead of just rejiggering the old stuff so much.

[Evan Lanctot]

You can get the original comics much cheaper then the visionaries books.

Byrne's FF was great, The second best run after Lee/Kirby.

[Agentum]

Byrne for me, i'm a bit to young to have nostalgic feelings for the 60s(well i wasn't even born yet).

But Lee and Kirby started it all of course so they have an advantage there.

But if i have to read the material right now i will read Byrnes FF, i'm sorry but it's more my generation of comics.

And i must say that the first years of FF is'n that "fantastic", it gets better, but compared to JLA of the times it's a totally diffrent thing, i hate those old Gardner Fox JLA, extremly boring to read today, i had to force me thru the books, actually i think the much older JSA All-star comics was better.

[Kirk G]

You might consider picking up the Second Fantastic Four omnibus and the third, if it ever comes out... as a great historical building block. You could also pick up the Marvel Masterworks volumes as they come out, but again, you're investing big bucks before telling if you like them or not. (Frankly, I don't see how anyone could not like anything I've mentioned above, but I've got to allow for the old school flavor of some of the earlier FF stories. Heck, I don't really like anything before, say FF #27, when chic stone begins inking over kirby... but that's just me.)

[Reptisaurus!]

Byrne for me, i'm a bit to young to have nostalgic feelings for the 60s(well i wasn't even born yet).


Lee and Kirby are better, born in '76.

But then again I don't have nostalgic feelings. If I'm still into the same stuff I was as a kid it's because my tastes... haven't actually changed all that much in a lotta ways, and I'm not so into this whole "growing up" thing so much. :D

Which isn't to say the Byrne run wasn't innovative, and often uniquely so.

The Negative Zone storyline, especially, seemed to be a chance for Byrne to push the envelope, with all KINDS of cool tricks, including the first "widescreen" comic I'd ever read.

[Gingold]

There's a lot of fun stuff in Byrne's run, and his art was never better than on his first couple of years on FF. It doesn't come close to the awesomeness of Kirby's FF, though. For my money, the best non-Kirby FF is Walt Simonson's too brief run.

[ratzo]

Byrne's run on this book is a real gem, even if it began to slide into muddled morality with the "We Have to Save Galactus" nonsense.

I disagree. Even as a kid that entire storyline, culminating with the sublime Trial of Reed Richards story, blew my mind not just because of the cosmic elements and the big fights, but because even then I could tell it was an attempt to examine The Big Questions in life, and it left quite an impression on me. Seriously, I can quote entire chunks of FF #262 from memory.

I think when people look back at the Lee/Kirby FF, what they most fondly remember are the new characters and concepts introduced, so working with what "Stan and Jack left there" is actually part of the problem - the new creators need to focus more on creating great new ideas instead of just rejiggering the old stuff so much.

I agree. As great a job as Byrne did with the classic villains and supporting characters, most of his original creations from his run haven't stuck. Ditto for Simonson's run. And DeFalco's, and Claremont's, and Waid's. To what can this be attributed - the creators, who only want to play with Lee & Kirby's characters, or the fans, who only want to read about them?

[Cei-U!]

I hear you, ratzo. No matter what writer/artist team tackled FF in the years between the creators and John Byrne, you could count on them giving us their Doctor Doom story, their Galactus story, their Ben goes nuts and/or loses his powers story, etc. It's as if they decided up front that they weren't as imaginative as Lee/Kirby so there was no point in trying to top or even match their efforts. It's this caretaker mentality that leads inevitably to the eighteenth "Frightful Four get a lame new member" story. Byrne was just as guilty of rehashing old characters and situations but he at least looked for something new to say about each (as well as venturing into new concepts) instead of regurgitating Stan and Jack.

Cei-U!
I summon the old school try!

[drmcnutt]

I'll have to say I really enjoyed Byrne's run of FF. I started with She-Hulk joining the team from Secret Wars (I suppose crossovers do work). I bought the entire run after enjoying these new issues. He definitely did some of his better work at the time. I also enjoyed his characterization of Invisible Girl er Woman and the expansion of her powers.

My familiarity firsthand with the Lee/Kirby era is lacking however, just the classic stories that have been reprinted, so I can't compare them.

[Eumenides]

Then there's the "Wendy's Friends" story, where the FF investigate a town that's being assaulted by demons... and just kind of shrug their shoulders and leave without actually trying to solve the problem. Wha? :confused:

Ah, I have fond memories of that story, although the actual plot is kinda blurry in my mind; but weren't the demons kinda putting the town's people through some spiritual trial without causing any real mischief? Mr. Fantastic finds this out, sees that something beyond him is at play there and the team leaves. It made sense when I was a kid :D

---------

I don't think discovering Lee and Kirby's terrific run should diminish the quality of Bryne's (I'm only discovering them today too thanks to the Essentials). His Fantastic Four was pretty good, to me it's some of the best stuff he ever did. So he was a big Lee/Kirby fan: isn't everyone working in comics today a fan of those guys? He did homages, heck DC today is all about homages to '70s comics too.

[Jolly Mon]

Ah, I have fond memories of that story, although the actual plot is kinda blurry in my mind; but weren't the demons kinda putting the town's people through some spiritual trial without causing any real mischief? Mr. Fantastic finds this out, sees that something beyond him is at play there and the team leaves. It made sense when I was a kid :D



They were killing people. Is that enough mischief for you?

[Kirk G]

You know, I always felt that the Secret Wars cross-over and the ones that followed were kind of forced. Well, duh, when the editor in chief says all books are going to end their plots in time for the entire company-crossing cross-over, you're going to do it or else.

For me, I think Byrne did as well as he could, knowing that the break was coming, and either ploting the replacement of Ben, or being told that he had to take it in stride. I was freaked by the She-Hulk substitution at first, but with the solo #375 issue (green pin-up, say no more!) and the way that he handled it so well, it felt really natural... even the Johnny & Alicia pairing. I found myself thinking, why hasn't anyone thought of doing this with these two kids before? (To un-do it with Lyla, skrull-woman substitute supreme, just seemed to be a cheap cop-out).

But, when the SECOND secret wars cross-over comes about, with the interuption in the climax of Alpha Flight stuck into four pages of Secret Wars II #4... I mean, hell, I don't blame Byrne for bailing within an issue or two. I'd have had enough.

To have Dr. Doom plucked out of the time-line in the FF and then returned, giving the FF a chance to cut and run, well, that's just Byrne brilliance trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear that he's been handed from on high.

Still, he handles these roadblocks in the most logical and believable manner possible.

I still remember the Assistant Editor's Month catching us all off-guard. I can imagine how hard it would be to be told to inject some craziness in the middle of your most serious "Justify Galactus" climax. Yet, Byrne pulls it off, not only with a nod on the cover to insert Charlie Brown among the aliens (not the first time he's injected someone like Poppie among the alien crowd) but also by inserting his fallable self into the story, much as Stan and Jack did in FF #10! It worked.

But if I were him, I'd be getting really tired of arbitrary edicts coming out of the head office about the third year or so...

I just wish he would have completed the Central City arc himself, for one more issue, before leaving the series for good. What issue was that?

So his run spans #334 thru ??? and at 12 issues a year, how many years is that spread?

[DDM]

You know, I always felt that the Secret Wars cross-over and the ones that followed were kind of forced. Well, duh, when the editor in chief says all books are going to end their plots in time for the entire company-crossing cross-over, you're going to do it or else.

For me, I think Byrne did as well as he could, knowing that the break was coming, and either ploting the replacement of Ben, or being told that he had to take it in stride. I was freaked by the She-Hulk substitution at first, but with the solo #375 issue (green pin-up, say no more!) and the way that he handled it so well, it felt really natural... even the Johnny & Alicia pairing. I found myself thinking, why hasn't anyone thought of doing this with these two kids before? (To un-do it with Lyla, skrull-woman substitute supreme, just seemed to be a cheap cop-out).

But, when the SECOND secret wars cross-over comes about, with the interuption in the climax of Alpha Flight stuck into four pages of Secret Wars II #4... I mean, hell, I don't blame Byrne for bailing within an issue or two. I'd have had enough.

To have Dr. Doom plucked out of the time-line in the FF and then returned, giving the FF a chance to cut and run, well, that's just Byrne brilliance trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear that he's been handed from on high.

Still, he handles these roadblocks in the most logical and believable manner possible.

I still remember the Assistant Editor's Month catching us all off-guard. I can imagine how hard it would be to be told to inject some craziness in the middle of your most serious "Justify Galactus" climax. Yet, Byrne pulls it off, not only with a nod on the cover to insert Charlie Brown among the aliens (not the first time he's injected someone like Poppie among the alien crowd) but also by inserting his fallable self into the story, much as Stan and Jack did in FF #10! It worked.

But if I were him, I'd be getting really tired of arbitrary edicts coming out of the head office about the third year or so...

I just wish he would have completed the Central City arc himself, for one more issue, before leaving the series for good. What issue was that?

So his run spans #334 thru ??? and at 12 issues a year, how many years is that spread?

John Byrne's run is Fantastic Four #232-292. What I hate about his his last issue, is he leaves mid-storyline as he would do with West Coast Avengers & Sensational She-Hulk in 1990.

[mrc1214]

I just finished up FF Visionaries 2 and 3. It was good but there were some wtf moments. One being Reed knowing how dangerous the Negative Zone is just decides to build a ship and go on the fantastic voyage. Now Reed was a bit off and very more concerned with his work in Lee/Kirby FF but in Byrnes run at least what Ive re-read so far,Reed Richards is a complete maniac who seems to do nothing but work and coming up with new insane dangerous things to put his family in danger. I just found the whole thing to be very weird. And the whole saving Galactus thing was absolutly horrible. I know they care for hum life but to save Galactus was insane.

[DDM]

I just finished up FF Visionaries 2 and 3. It was good but there were some wtf moments. One being Reed knowing how dangerous the Negative Zone is just decides to build a ship and go on the fantastic voyage. Now Reed was a bit off and very more concerned with his work in Lee/Kirby FF but in Byrnes run at least what Ive re-read so far,Reed Richards is a complete maniac who seems to do nothing but work and coming up with new insane dangerous things to put his family in danger. I just found the whole thing to be very weird. And the whole saving Galactus thing was absolutly horrible. I know they care for hum life but to save Galactus was insane.

I believe Byrne just portrayed Reed to be absent-minded. Furthermore, Reed--with the Avengers' help--in saving Galactus' life is one of the best storylines. Why is it horrible? Galactus is not evil. Galactus must feed on planets to live. Therefore, I understand Reed's reasons for saving Galactus.

[Kirk G]

And more importantly, Galactus serves an extremely important role in the Universe...in the grand scheme of things...and the big point of the trial of Reed Richards, was/is... that Byrne was SHOWN what this was, but the human mind just can't fathom it...and so he lost it before writing it all down.

A neat way to justify Galactus and still make an entertaining story out of it all.

PS: Has anyone finished reading "The Last Galactus Story?" from Epic comics?
That was supposedly going to explain it all also...

[JKCarrier]

A neat way to justify Galactus and still make an entertaining story out of it all.

See, I thought that was a massive cop-out. You start off with this great, thorny ethical dilemma: Is it right for Reed to save Galactus, knowing that he'll go on to kill billions in the future? But when we find out that Galactus is somehow necessary to the survival of the universe, that conveniently lets Reed off the hook without ever addressing the question. It also ruins Galactus as a villain going forward. "Oh well, we'd like to save you from Galactus, but gosh, he has to eat your planet for the greater good of the universe. Sorry!"

[DDM]

A neat way to justify Galactus and still make an entertaining story out of it all.

PS: Has anyone finished reading "The Last Galactus Story?" from Epic comics?
That was supposedly going to explain it all also...

Billions of years later, Nova travels to an uninhabited planet to discover the planet is actually Earth! Since no humans exist any longer, Galactus at last consumes the Earth. Later, when the universe is its death-throws, Galactus vanishes & Frankie Raye--Nova--hears the SENTIENCE OF THE UNIVERSE as she is transformed into the new Galactus for the new universe. At last we learn why Galactus must have a Herald...!

[DDM]

See, I thought that was a massive cop-out. You start off with this great, thorny ethical dilemma: Is it right for Reed to save Galactus, knowing that he'll go on to kill billions in the future? But when we find out that Galactus is somehow necessary to the survival of the universe, that conveniently lets Reed off the hook without ever addressing the question. It also ruins Galactus as a villain going forward. "Oh well, we'd like to save you from Galactus, but gosh, he has to eat your planet for the greater good of the universe. Sorry!"

Galactus has never been portrayed as a villain, particularly by Stan Lee & Jack Kirby. He never has been a villain. I think that is John Byrne's point. And Byrne makes it clear with the "Trial of Galactus" as well as Fantastic Four #242-244.

[JKCarrier]

Galactus has never been portrayed as a villain, particularly by Stan Lee & Jack Kirby. He never has been a villain.

Perhaps, but he was always a force that could, and should, be opposed. But if we go by Byrne's version, every time a hero stops him from devouring a planet, they're potentially screwing up the universe.

[Kirk G]

Galactus has never been portrayed as a villain, particularly by Stan Lee & Jack Kirby. He never has been a villain. I think that is John Byrne's point. And Byrne makes it clear with the "Trial of Galactus" as well as Fantastic Four #242-244.

Oh yes he has.

Just go read FF #48-50... and he's very clearly concidered the villian.
Jump ahead to FF #72-77 and he's been reduced to a return villian status again.

Maybe he's supposed to be "beyond good and bad," but he's definitely the villian of the month....

[Reptisaurus!]

Yeah... G-man's a villain with a specific motivation, but that doesn't make him NOT a villain.

Doctor Doom and R'as Ah Ghul, for instance, honestly believe they're working for the common good, and that's certainly a more noble goal than pure survival.

If Galactus isn't a villain, we have to scratch them off the bad guy list.

Plus, from a purely PERSONAL stand-point, I consider anything (or anyone) who's trying to eat me a villain. And I can't imagine Earth 616 MarkAndrew feelin' different.

[JKCarrier]

Galactus fills the villain role, but the interesting thing about him is that his motivation is so primal and impersonal. He's not malicious, or greedy, or power-mad... he's just HUNGRY. His only crime is that he's above us on the food chain. Making him some kind of universal lynchpin kind of misses the brutal simplicity of the concept.

[ForeverTaskmaster]

I liked Byrne's run up until the Gladiator. That was also the only time the Gladiator was remotely cool.
The Galactus vs Everyone was stuff of Legends.
I also liked the story about that old man that got some strange powers while in the army. And the Torch detective story about trying to solve a murder of a guy that bullied the Torch in school was magic.

[DDM]

Galactus fills the villain role, but the interesting thing about him is that his motivation is so primal and impersonal. He's not malicious, or greedy, or power-mad... he's just HUNGRY. His only crime is that he's above us on the food chain. Making him some kind of universal lynchpin kind of misses the brutal simplicity of the concept.

This is why I don't consider Galactus a villain. With this contrived definition, anyone who eats anything is also a villain. Galactus does not seek universal conquest or power; he simply eats planets to survive.

[Jolly Mon]

This is why I don't consider Galactus a villain. With this contrived definition, anyone who eats anything is also a villain. Galactus does not seek universal conquest or power; he simply eats planets to survive.

Check out the movie "Chicken Run". The farmer wants to make the chickens into pies for others (and himself) to eat. From the chickens' perspective, he is the villain. From the perspective of people who live on planets, Galactus is a villain.

Plus he was the star of Super-Villain Classics #1 (and only), so Marvel defined him as a villain as well. :D
http://www.comics.org/series.lasso?SeriesID=2766

[ratzo]

Perhaps "antagonist" is a more accurate word than "villain"? There are certain connotations that come with the latter that don't necessarily apply to the former.

[stelok]

Only Lee/Kirby team and Byrne separately have proved the FF was the world's greatest super-hero, if not overall, comic book magazine. Most of the other creative teams on FF were mediocre. Only the Mark Waid/Mike Wieringo and J. Michael Straczynski came close to Byrne or Lee & Kirby.

[JKCarrier]

Only the Mark Waid/Mike Wieringo and J. Michael Straczynski came close to Byrne or Lee & Kirby.

I actually enjoyed Steve Englehart's run much more than Byrne's, but I know that's an extreme minority opinion. :o

[Alex Dragon]

I agree. As great a job as Byrne did with the classic villains and supporting characters, most of his original creations from his run haven't stuck. Ditto for Simonson's run. And DeFalco's, and Claremont's, and Waid's. To what can this be attributed - the creators, who only want to play with Lee & Kirby's characters, or the fans, who only want to read about them?

It's a bit of the fans fault for wanting to see the ol' familiar stuff but it's mostly the writers who tend to go with the "tried and true" concepts that are all worked out, fully formed and already successful. I believe there are plenty of concepts and characters that could be just as great and important to the Marvel or DC universe if the writers who followed the innovators invested some thought and effort toward them. For example, I think Terrax from Byrne's FF run has all the makings of a major villian in the Marvel U. but most writers want to mostly stick with playing with Stan and Jack's toys. Dr Doom is all thought out and doesn't require any heavy lifting so we end up with countless Doom stories.

Plus I think there's a bit of a tendancy from writers to not want to create for a big company when they can't own it later.

[DDM]

I actually enjoyed Steve Englehart's run much more than Byrne's, but I know that's an extreme minority opinion. :o

His run is a downer for me because he's responsible for transforming Sharon Ventura into She-Thing. She has not been reverted back to Ms. Marvel II which is long overdue.

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/87322062574.35.GIF

[icctrombone]

There were many runs of the F.F. that I enjoyed. When Buscema took over in 109 or so, was when i started reading comics . I liked the Paul Ryan / Defalco run # 356 ? . Some nice stuff was done with Buckler/ Thomas as well.

[Dr. Hfuhruhurr]

John Byrne's run on FF was good, but so derivative and uninspired that it left me pretty dry. It was much better than what had gone on in the title for years, though, and that's probably why it was so well-received at the time.

My main criticisms of the run besides that were the rather bland characterization of everyone except for perhaps Sue, the introduction of Aunt Petunia after 40-something years, his utter failure -- along with just about every other writer in FF's history -- to know what to do with Johnny to the point of developing the relationship with Alicia (a move only slightly less ludicrous that the subsequent revelation that "Alicia" was a skrull), and the revelation that most of the appearances of Dr. Doom in the Marvel Universe were, in fact, Doombots.

Like most of his runs on other titles, the confounding thing about Byrne's writing was that it read like a fanboy's wet dream, the kind of thing that you would have thought about doing when you were 13 and had been made "Writer for a Day." At the end of the day, there was little Byrne contributed to the FF as a whole beyond some fairly cosmetic changes.

He should get kudos for finally changing Sue's moniker to the "Invisible Woman," however. That was a move a couple decades late in coming. I also actually liked She-Hulk in the FF, a character whom I could not have cared less about before then.

[Kirk G]

Perhaps "antagonist" is a more accurate word than "villain"? There are certain connotations that come with the latter that don't necessarily apply to the former.

Yeah, I gotta go with that. Good call, ratzo!:D

[Kirk G]

Gotta take issue with most of what you claim, Dr. H...
Far from being bland and colorless, I view Byrne's writing and grasp of the characters to be superlative! The move with Johnny getting involved with Alicia to be shocking at first, but brilliant... just want a hot headed, impetuous young man might do... and they were closer in age than Ben was.
With Ben out of the picture, Alicia NEEDED someone. And Johnny was the logical choice.

I do agree that She-Hulk finally became an interesting character under Byrne, and though I wondered where he was going with this change, I approved of it until the Central City story, where she appeared to be a fifth wheel... ditto in the strange Hitler/dreamer story.

I though Byrnes grasp of the Galactus situation was great, as it gave him a majesty and weight that had been long lacking... and ADDED to the mythos, rather than played it again as a villian. (Also, IMHO Stan and Jack's second appearance of Galactus was pointless and should have been avoided. I can't get over the awful cover they drew for the reprint title "World's Greatest Comic"... it epitomizes the problem with how everyone else didn't understand Galactus and view him as just the villian of the month...)

[Dr. Hfuhruhurr]

Gotta take issue with most of what you claim, Dr. H...
Far from being bland and colorless, I view Byrne's writing and grasp of the characters to be superlative! The move with Johnny getting involved with Alicia to be shocking at first, but brilliant... just want a hot headed, impetuous young man might do... and they were closer in age than Ben was.
With Ben out of the picture, Alicia NEEDED someone. And Johnny was the logical choice.

Well, we disagree on the Alicia/Johnny relationship, to be sure. It struck me as so out of left field so as to be ridiculous. If you can recall two sentences the characters had exchanged with one another before that scene, I'd be surprised. And, although I am fully aware that it frequently happens that friends fall into relationships with exes of their friends, it struck me as very against character for both Johnny and Alicia to do so. Johnny, despite his relative lack of characterization over the years, has consistently been shown to be like a brother to Ben. And Alicia's devotion to Ben has likewise always been depicted as rock-solid (if you'll pardon the pun).

But my criticism is much broader than that. What insights did we gain about the characters? Reed was still the isolated "mad" scientist, Sue the dutiful wife, Ben the loyal friend and Johnny the hot-headed, impetuous youth. In other words, Byrne continued what Lee/Kirby had developed about the characters, but for the most part, didn't particularly do anything with them that was new or especially different from what had been shown before. One might argue that Reed's defense of Galactus showed him to be a man to stand on principle, despite its possible consequences, but I'd argue that we already knew that. I'm probably not expressing myself very well on this point, but I saw Byrne as "aping" what Lee and Kirby had done and not necessarily bringing very much to the table himself.

I though Byrnes grasp of the Galactus situation was great, as it gave him a majesty and weight that had been long lacking... and ADDED to the mythos, rather than played it again as a villian. (Also, IMHO Stan and Jack's second appearance of Galactus was pointless and should have been avoided. I can't get over the awful cover they drew for the reprint title "World's Greatest Comic"... it epitomizes the problem with how everyone else didn't understand Galactus and view him as just the villian of the month...)

I can't argue with that point. This was one case where Byrne's re-interpretation of the character was spot-on IMO.

Although the Frankie Raye-Nova character, to me, was a pretty shallow one. I actually liked Frankie as Human Torch II, but I thought her leap to become Galactus' new herald was pretty unbelievable and rendered her, like a lot of Byrne's creations, more of a plot device than an actual character.

[Shellhead]

I have mixed feelings about the Byrne run. At the time, I was pretty excited about it, because he was one of my favorite artists at the time. But even then, it was apparent that much of his writing was derivative of the original Lee/Kirby run. Almost every issue seemed like it was inspired from the first appearance of that villain during the Lee/Kirby issues, with some twist thrown into make the story somewhat different.

I wasn't happy about the Thing leaving the book, especially since his solo book was so drab and grumpy that it effectively destroyed much of the popularity of the character. But that might not have been Byrne's idea, it seemed more like the kind of arbitrary changes that Jim Shooter was forcing on nearly every title at that time. On the other hand, Byrne did get me to like She-Hulk, who previously struck me as a boring cash-in on the popularity of the Hulk. And I definitely hated the Johnny-Alicia romance, which came out of nowhere and never made any sense to me from a character standpoint.

Even so, I still consider the Byrne run to be one of the best FF runs. However, I hate the way so many fans dismiss everything between Lee/Kirby and Byrne. Some highlights from that gap:

1. Doctor Doom helps Sue, Ben and Johnny fight the Over-Mind and Reed Richards. (FF# 113-116)
2. Thundra battles the Thing, because the Frightful Four lied and told her that he was the strongest man on Earth. (FF# 133)
3. The FF, the Inhumans and the Avengers fight a giant Ultron at the wedding of Quicksilver and Crystal. (FF# 150)
4. A war between three alternate Earths. (FF# 158-163)
5. Sue beats the Hulk (FF# 167)
6. The High Evolutionary battles Galactus for Counter-Earth (FF# 175)
7. Impossible Man invades the Marvel Bullpen. (FF# 176)
8. The Frightful Four conduct a hilarious recruitment drive, in one of the funniest superhero issues ever. (FF# 178).
9. Doctor Doom schemes to re-create himself in a cloned body with the combined powers of the Fantastic Four, culminating in a wild battle between Reed Richards and Doom. (FF# 198-200)
10. Galactus versus the Sphinx (FF# 212)

[Cei-U!]

My beef with the Johnny-Alicia romance is perhaps too personal to share but here it is.

Ben and Alicia really were the fairy tale romance Sue once desribed it as: the beautiful blind girl in love with a monster. More importantly, they taught the important lesson that a handicap--blindness, ugliness--doesn't have to mean a life without love. That's a terrific, uplifting theme and I applaud Stan and Jack for including it. Had Byrne wanted to move their story forward and have them marry, I'd have been with him all the way. That he instead erased all that for the sake of cheap soap operatics tells me he didn't understand the FF nearly as well as he claimed.

In my opinion, needless to say.

Cei-U!
I summon the long pent-up rant!

[sheets]

That's the thing about Byrne: He's one of those writers that seems to like making his favorite characters look like insufferable, selfish jerks.

[Dr. Hfuhruhurr]

Even so, I still consider the Byrne run to be one of the best FF runs. However, I hate the way so many fans dismiss everything between Lee/Kirby and Byrne. Some highlights from that gap:

1. Doctor Doom helps Sue, Ben and Johnny fight the Over-Mind and Reed Richards. (FF# 113-116)
2. Thundra battles the Thing, because the Frightful Four lied and told her that he was the strongest man on Earth. (FF# 133)
3. The FF, the Inhumans and the Avengers fight a giant Ultron at the wedding of Quicksilver and Crystal. (FF# 150)
4. A war between three alternate Earths. (FF# 158-163)
5. Sue beats the Hulk (FF# 167)
6. The High Evolutionary battles Galactus for Counter-Earth (FF# 175)
7. Impossible Man invades the Marvel Bullpen. (FF# 176)
8. The Frightful Four conduct a hilarious recruitment drive, in one of the funniest superhero issues ever. (FF# 178).
9. Doctor Doom schemes to re-create himself in a cloned body with the combined powers of the Fantastic Four, culminating in a wild battle between Reed Richards and Doom. (FF# 198-200)
10. Galactus versus the Sphinx (FF# 212)

I liked a lot of those "in-between" issues, too, Shell, but I wouldn't put them in the same class as the Lee/Kirby run. The proof for me is looking over any other run on the title, there is nowhere that even comes close to Lee and Kirby's creativity and productivity. Mostly, in the issues that follow Lee and Kirby, the creators make use of the Lee/Kirby creations but don't come up with much original material themselves. That, in a nutshell, is my main beef with Byrne as well.

[Shellhead]

I liked a lot of those "in-between" issues, too, Shell, but I wouldn't put them in the same class as the Lee/Kirby run. The proof for me is looking over any other run on the title, there is nowhere that even comes close to Lee and Kirby's creativity and productivity. Mostly, in the issues that follow Lee and Kirby, the creators make use of the Lee/Kirby creations but don't come up with much original material themselves. That, in a nutshell, is my main beef with Byrne as well.

I'm not saying that those "in-between" issues were better than the Lee/Kirby run, but they hold up well in comparison with Byrne's run.

[Kirk G]

Interesting comments, guys.

I don't know how much of Ben's leaving was Byrne's idea or forced upon him, but I interpret it as trying to make sense of the imposed edict and deal with the aftermath in the characters that have been left...Johnny and Alicia. Got to agree, there really hadn't been much interaction between the two prior to that... but then, Alicia ALWAYS seemed to be a shallow character to me. Almost a one-note song that Stan and Jack played for irony and tragedy in Ben's life... nothing more.

As for the highlights between the runs... Well, I stuck around for at least two years after Jack left... and I thought the Doom helping the FF against Reed & the Overmind was dreadful... as was most all the stories of that period. I did like the arc just prior to that one, with Johnny freezing Ben in place, and then Ben evolving into a jerk and fighting the Hulk. But beyond that, yuk.

I wasn't reading beyond #126 or so until Byrne returned the title to it's glory in, what, 233?

[Roquefort Raider]

Byrne had a great quality that I don't think has been mentioned: he was very good at making the strategy of "appearance of change without actual change" work. All too often, this translates as changing things one way and then changing them back. Byrne actually effected changes that were meant to be permanent, but they weren't changes that threatened the real status quo.

For example, he gave the FF dark blue uniforms. That's trivial by today's Mephistophelesque standards, but back then it looked like quite a blow to tradition. Or was it? At the end of the day it didn't change much and the new duds looked pretty cool. He changed the look of the Baxter building and later blew it up (NOOOOO!!!), only to replace it by the nicely-designed Four Freedom plaza. Again, a change that seemed important but really didn't have much on an impact... The same type of stories could still be told; new readers wouldn't go "my, how things have changed!" but rather "ah, you've redecorated". Ditto for moving the Inhumans to the moon.

Reed and Sue moved to a suburban house, an idea that really appeared to shake the status quo. And yet, the team's dynamic didn't change; it was business as usual, but with a slightly different angle. I actually miss that idea a lot; I think it wasn't exploited to its full potential. There was also Sue's pregnancy: oh, look! Change! -and she had a miscarriage. Crap.

Replacing Ben by the She-Hulk was a bit jarring at first, but it worked beautifully... and because we weren't told the usual fallacious "this is the way things are going to be forevermore", we ran along with it knowing Ben would be back some day. Instead of a usurper, Jen was like a visiting cousin.

The Alicia thing was a bit bolder. That I would count as a true change (and one that was a bit hard to swallow, even if it made for one heck of a dramatic development). I think a Ben-Alicia-Johnny triangle could have made for an interesting sub-plot, but of course Byrne left and we don't know how he meant for things to develop. I doubt he would have married Johnny and Alicia so fast, that's for sure.

At the end, Byrne had changed many things and given the illusion of change, but had left the core identity of the FF intact. He had also designed a lot of beautiful toys for the new writers and artists to use, but they chose instead to dispose of them. Pity.

[Shellhead]

Byrne had a great quality that I don't think has been mentioned: he was very good at making the strategy of "appearance of change without actual change" work. All too often, this translates as changing things one way and then changing them back. Byrne actually effected changes that were mean to be permanent, but they weren't changes that threatened the real status quo.

For example, he gave the FF dark blue uniforms. That's trivial by today's Mephistophelesque standards, but back then it looked like quite a blow to tradition. Or was it? At the end of the day it didn't change much and the new duds looked pretty cool. He changed the look of the Baxter building and later blew it up (NOOOOO!!!), only to replace it by the nicely-designed Four Freedom plaza. Again, a change that seemed important but really didn't have much on an impact... The same type of stories could still be told; new readers wouldn't go "my, how things have changed!" but rather "ah, you've redecorated". Ditto for moving the Inhumans to the moon.


In some other thread here at CBR, maybe here in the Classics forum, I thought that I read that the FF costumes were changed because of some quirk in a new printing process that Marvel switched to at that time. I have always hated the Four Freedoms Plaza and really miss the Baxter Building. Otherwise, I agree with your points about Byrne's changes on the book.

[DDM]

II wasn't reading beyond #126 or so until Byrne returned the title to it's glory in, what, 233?

Although John Byrne was penciler under Marv Wolfman's scripts from Fantastic Four #210-220, John Byrne returned to the book as writer & artist in Fantastic Four #232:

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/30929984076.232.GIF
This cover is a homage to X-Men #51:

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/97792366288.51.GIF

[Polar Bear]

Although John Byrne was penciler under Marv Wolfman's scripts from Fantastic Four #210-220, John Byrne returned to the book as writer & artist in Fantastic Four #232

I bet I'm alone, but I absolutely loved Marv Wolfman's arc that lasted from FF 201-214 (the last issues, as you note, by Byrne). Involving the Skrulls, the Sphinx, Terrax, and Galactus in a wild ride with a rapidly-aging FF, this arc was (I think) my first encounter with a SAGA. The ending was one of the most awe-inspiring I've ever seen at the time. I have all these issues, but if Marvel were to issue a trade, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

I'm still working on getting that complete set of Lee/Kirby's; I've got to fill in the gaps that Marvel's Greatest Comics didn't reprint.

[Sabrinaset]

Really, NOTHING beats the Lee/Kirby run, although I would rank the Waid/'Ringo run up there along with Byrne ... but you know what (extremely short) run is *seriously* underestimated? The Lobdell/Davis one that ran the first four issues of the FF relaunch (Heroes Return). They REALLY did a great job there. It's too bad they probably won't reunite them after the Millar/Hitch run is over. If i were Joey Q, I'd start working on them stat.

I had high hopes with Claremont .... *sigh* Biggest dissapointment.

[Shellhead]

I had high hopes with Claremont .... *sigh* Biggest dissapointment.

I've never enjoyed anything that Claremont wrote on his own. He did some great work while collaborating with Dave Cockrum and John Byrne, but his shortcomings as a writer become apparent when he is on his own.

[Mark Wallace]

I've never enjoyed anything that Claremont wrote on his own. He did some great work while collaborating with Dave Cockrum and John Byrne, but his shortcomings as a writer become apparent when he is on his own.

Absolutely.

What annoys me is that Claremont has such wonderfully creative ideas, but is incapable of following through with them properly because, put simply, he's a crap writer -- he either doesn't know how to or is too impatient to build a story properly (with a beginning, middle, and end, even! That might be nice, every now and then!), and the number of ideas he just drops, busily moving on to his next batch of ideas, leaves some really painful loose ends. But give his ideas to someone like Pervy, and you get really great comics.

Claremont's work on the X-Dupers post Pervy didn't just leave me cold, it bloody annoyed me; it was a morass, a messed-up collage, of too many different and conflicting ideas, all thrown together with little rhyme or reason, and acted out by characters who changed character every couple of issues, until they all ultimately became idealised clones of Claremont himself. I ended up not givien a damn about characters that had previously made themselves important to me. I still consider that a loss.

I'm reasonably sure that the earlier, greater, issues would have been just as bad, if it weren't for Pervy. If the X-books were great, it was his fault; and his FF (even though his scripting occasionally left something to be desired) was wonderful, in all the right senses of the word. He brought back the feeling of wonder that Lee originally infused the Marvel universe with.

I've only just picked up this thread, and I have to say that I'm really happy to see Pervy being given credit for the comics he's created, rather than being ragged for putting his foot in his mouth on the Internet. Many of his comics have made me, and the majority of comic readers, very happy. He's earned any respect he's given.

Hell, I'd rather buy great comics by people who behave like arseholes, than crap comics by saints and PR specialists -- and the clincher is that Pervy doesn't even come close to bearing the "arsehole" label. Is he opinionated? Sure, and why not? If I were writing a comic (God forbid!), and he gave me advice that I disagreed with, even I would think hard, and several times, before daring to not follow that advice.

[Polar Bear]

Claremont's work on the X-Dupers post Pervy didn't just leave me cold, it bloody annoyed me; it was a morass, a messed-up collage, of too many different and conflicting ideas, all thrown together with little rhyme or reason, and acted out by characters who changed character every couple of issues, until they all ultimately became idealised clones of Claremont himself. I ended up not givien a damn about characters that had previously made themselves important to me. I still consider that a loss.

I found that true for all artists except for Paul Smith (#162-175, I believe). Under him, I still cared radically about radically different characters, plotlines were followed through, and the ideas didn't conflict. That brood saga, for example, was just excellent.

[Sir Tim Drake]

I bet I'm alone, but I absolutely loved Marv Wolfman's arc that lasted from FF 201-214 (the last issues, as you note, by Byrne). Involving the Skrulls, the Sphinx, Terrax, and Galactus in a wild ride with a rapidly-aging FF, this arc was (I think) my first encounter with a SAGA. The ending was one of the most awe-inspiring I've ever seen at the time. I have all these issues, but if Marvel were to issue a trade, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

I just read #205, and I rather enjoyed it. In particular, Keith Pollard's artwork was much better than I thought was possible for him, although Sinnott's inking probably had something to do with that.

[JeTmAn]

So fellows, which arcs are recommended the most beyond Byrne and Lee/Kirby? I'm about halfway through the Lee/Kirby run and I bought the DVD set with pretty much all the comics in it, so which one should I read after that (aside from Byrne)?

[ratzo]

Walt Simonson did some cool stuff with the book. I believe his run began somewhere in the 330's.

Byrne continued what Lee/Kirby had developed about the characters, but for the most part, didn't particularly do anything with them that was new or especially different from what had been shown before. One might argue that Reed's defense of Galactus showed him to be a man to stand on principle, despite its possible consequences, but I'd argue that we already knew that. I'm probably not expressing myself very well on this point, but I saw Byrne as "aping" what Lee and Kirby had done and not necessarily bringing very much to the table himself.

This is basically what I was trying to get at in the beginning, but perhaps didn't make as clear as I could have. Of course, this didn't matter to me at the time I first read Byrne's FF, but now that I'm older and have read Lee & Kirby, I see things much differently.

Regarding Johnny: his characterization under Lee strikes me as uneven. Johnny would do outrageous things like invade Attilan singlehandedly because he can't live without Crystal (and then not even give her a chance to explain why she had to go back home so suddenly), but he would also do awesome things like shame the Mole Man into submission when the latter gets pwned by the FF again and expects sympathy just because he's ugly. Johnny seemed to go back and forth between being smart and being stupid all the time - but then, I suppose that's what most teenagers go through. :p

I like Byrne's version of Johnny in part because of his relationship with Alicia. I agree with Roquefort in that Byrne probably wouldn't have married them so soon. I think that was a mistake.

[Mark Wallace]

I found that true for all artists except for Paul Smith (#162-175, I believe). Under him, I still cared radically about radically different characters, plotlines were followed through, and the ideas didn't conflict. That brood saga, for example, was just excellent.

You're dead right! I'd forgotten about Smith's short run; they were excellent comics. What's he doing these days?

[Polar Bear]

You're dead right! I'd forgotten about Smith's short run; they were excellent comics. What's he doing these days?

Defending Vince Colletta's inking on the Vince Colletta thread. I think he's also working on a project with Mark Evanier, based on the subtext on that thread.

[Mark Wallace]

Defending Vince Colletta's inking on the Vince Colletta thread. I think he's also working on a project with Mark Evanier, based on the subtext on that thread.

Someone has a problem with Vinnie Colletta? What, inking 500 comics a month isn't enough? I might have to poke my nose into that one.

[DDM]

I found that true for all artists except for Paul Smith (#162-175, I believe). Under him, I still cared radically about radically different characters, plotlines were followed through, and the ideas didn't conflict. That brood saga, for example, was just excellent.

Paul Smith took over from Dave Cockrum with Uncanny X-Men #165-175 (except Uncanny X-Men #171 with Walter Simonson guest penciling).

I think before he took over Uncanny X-Men, Smith was the guest penciler for Marvel Fanfare arc starring Spider-Man, Angel, & the X-Men fighting Sauron & the Savage Land Mutates along with the pencil talents of Dave Cockrum & Michael Golden throughout the arc...

I like how Chris Claremont's Uncanny X-Men #167 responded to Galactus being saved by Reed Richards from the events of Fantastic Four #242-244 from Lilandra via Gladiator. This story takes place sometime after Fantastic Four #249-250.

[devildinosaur]

John Byrne's the guy who cemented my love for the medium.

He'll always be my absolute favorite writer & artist.