The Golden Compass Rebuttal

[Sally Sensational]

Many of you may not have been flooded like I have with forwarded emails reiterating - in increasing stridence - that The Golden Compass is BAD and will TURN YOUR CHILDREN BAD!

But I have. And I got sick of it.

What follows is my rebuttal. Now, I don't ask any of you to agree with me. I wrote this from the perspective of a Christian parent trying to answer a kid's questions and from the perspective of an open-minded school librarian trying to quell some of the stupid "let's ban it" talk about a book and movie.

If you have a problem with what I've recommended for CHRISTIAN parents here, well, I'm sorry. I'm not a very good Christian myself, but I am a believer and I do believe that just about anything can be used to teach our kids good lessons. Some of what follows is just what I see as good character building stuff. Other stuff is more overtly Christian. Take what you like, leave what you don't and for pity's sake, let's not turn this into a flame war.

Please forward the following BACK to the sources of the forwards regarding The Golden Compass:
Hi folks!
I have recently been the recipient of several forwarded emails and links about The Golden Compass – both the film and the trilogy of novels. Being a school librarian, I thought it would be a good idea for me to find out for myself what the controversy was about, so I went back to the source and read the first installment of the trilogy, which is the novel on which the film was based.
Now, I do not dispute the author’s viewpoints or the things he has said about his personal lack of belief. What I do dispute is that this book and film are so devastatingly dangerous that they must be avoided at all costs by Christian families.
To that end, I have prepared a brief guide – broken down by age group – to The Golden Compass for Christian families. I started by asking myself what various age groups of kids are most likely to notice and pay close attention to and then asked myself how those things could be used to teach positive and faith-supporting, not destroying, lessons to Christian kids.
The first age group I considered is the youngest set that would be likely to understand the plot of the movie well enough to want to see it based on the previews – I place these kids in the 6-8 age group (full disclosure: my own daughter is 7).
What 6-8 year olds are most likely to notice and pay attention to in this film:
1. Talking polar bears!
2. Talking pet animals called Daemons (pronounced DAY-mun and not to be confused with demons)
3. Hot Air balloons
4. Lyra goes off on her big adventure to help save her friend.
1. So, how can we use these things to help our children learn good lessons and grow in their faith? Let’s start with the talking polar bear. Lyra quickly learns that, despite his fearsome reputation and frightening appearance, Iorek is a trusted ally and trustable friend. We can use this to teach our children about looking beyond appearances and apparent reputations to seeing the good inside people. Refer them to the stories of Matthew, the tax collector, Zacheus, Rahab, Paul, etc. to underline that Christians look beyond the surface to the heart of a person.
2. Alright, what about the daemons? Well, our youngest kids aren’t likely to understand their symbolism. But they do understand having a beloved pet. They also understand that people have lots of different things they like to do and be and lots of different sides to their personalities. Talk to them about how the daemons can change forms when the kids are young and how the people who have had their daemons removed are less than what they were. Use this as a way to talk about how God wants us to use and explore all of the gifts and talents that He has given us and how no one can take away God’s gifts. Teach them the song “This little light of mine” if they don’t already know it.
3. Hot Air Balloons? Well, hot air balloons are neat. They don’t really aid much in spiritual development, but they’re great for getting your kids talking about science.
4. Last but not least, there’s a treasure trove in Lyra’s motivations to go off and find her friend. The obvious one, of course, is that we take care of our friends. The next good lesson here is that people who hurt children need to be stopped and kids can help. No, your kid can’t go off like Lyra did and save the lives of kids. But your kid CAN tell an adult if he or she knows of another child who’s being harmed. Your kid CAN donate part of his or her spending money to help needy kids in other places.
Let’s move on to the next group of kids. This is actually the movie’s target audience – the “tweens” – kids aged 9-12 or so.
What tweens are most likely – in addition to the things above – to notice and pay attention to in The Golden Compass:
1. Lyra’s relationship with her “parents”, Lord Asriel and Mrs. Coulter
2. The alethiometer and what it can do
3. How removing the daemon affects children
4. The similarities and differences between Lyra’s world and ours.

1. Lyra’s relationship with her parents? Kids this age understand that not all parents are good parents. Lyra’s parents aren’t even really parents to her. But she has other people in her life that are good and loving. This is a prime opportunity to teach kids about loving others. We never know when we might be the only person in someone’s life to show them loving care and concern.
2. The alethiometer and what it does: This one seems a bit tough on the exterior, but kids of tween age are old enough to understand metaphors and symbols. Call their attention to how Lyra has to be still and quiet and pay close attention to what she sees on the alethiometer in order to understand its meaning. Talk to them about how we should approach our quiet time with the Bible in the same way. Reinforce that the only “thing” in our world that can help us with every problem is God and His word and that, like Lyra turns to her “thing”, we can turn to the Bible in all situations.
3. How removing the daemon affects children: Children of the tween age are fast approaching the time in their lives – if they are not there already – when they will be realising that God doesn’t move people like dolls, but rather gives them free will to choose their path. Explain to the children that the daemon and its changeability represents that free will and that taking away an individual’s free will leaves them empty. Stress to them that God gave us our free will and that He wants us to come to Him out of that free will, not as empty robots, but as full participants in His kingdom.
4. The similarities and differences between Lyra’s world and ours: This is a good opportunity to reinforce the differences between fact and fiction. Remind kids that the differences in Lyra’s world underline the fact that the movie and book are a story.
And now for the last, and eldest, group of kids – the teens – ages 13 and up.
Teens are going to notice all of the things we’ve already talked about. Depending on their backgrounds in literature and science, other things they may notice are:
1. The similarity of the Magisterium to an organized church.
2. The attempts by the Magisterium to prevent discoveries that might “harm” their organization.

1. Yes, the Magisterium does indeed resemble an organized church. However, The Golden Compass does not insist on throwing aside all organized religion. What it does insist upon is resisting an authoritarian regime. Teenagers are ready for a little church history. Discuss with them how the Church has changed and how Christians are now encouraged to read and study the scriptures themselves. Talk to your kids about American history and how the pilgrims fled the same type of authoritarian church regimes. Remind your teenagers that only God is infallible, not man, and certainly not man’s organizations.
2. The attempts by the Magisterium to prevent discoveries that might “harm” their organization: Here’s another opportunity to bring a little history up. Many, many, many of the world’s great scientists and thinkers were and are also people of Faith. Some of them faced an organized church that was very resistant to their ideas. Have your teens research scientists like Newton and Copernicus, men of faith whose goal was to understand the glory of God’s creation, not to undermine His people. Talk about the intersection of faith and science. After all, even Einstein believed in miracles!
Digging a little deeper:
If all of the above doesn’t give you enough to talk about on the ride home from the movie theater, here’s a few more ideas for older audience members:
1. The Golden Compass was turned into a movie in part based on the success of The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe. How do the two movies compare? Pullman has suggested that his books are an agnostic/atheist reaction to C.S. Lewis’s overtly Christian series. Do you think Pullman will ever be as widely read as Lewis? Why or why not?
2. What do YOU think the “dust” is? Why do you think it mainly concentrates on children, rather than adults?
3. How do the intentions of the Gobblers to remove the innocence of the children compare to the intentions of the serpent in the Book of Genesis? Do you think Pullman intends for his audience to believe that childlike innocence is truly bad?
I hope that this helps you to look at The Golden Compass in a bit of a different light. Books and movies are only dangerous if we allow them to be and this one is no different.
I am not recommending that you go and pay for tickets to see this movie. What I am recommending – and I always do – is that you understand what it’s about and base your decision on all of the available information rather than someone else’s panic.
Thanks for your kind attention!

[kingdom2000]

It was a good movie. I was entertained at the very least. It didn't make me want to read the books.

Having said that, thanks to the various nutter christian groups out there I did reserve the first book from the library to see what the brouhaha was all about. So thanks christian nutters for pointing out the book for me :D

[Solaris]

Holy crap, Sally---that's a BRILLIANT plan, summation, and intelligent look at the controversy and the movie/book. You totally rock with that.

On the other hand, don't be surprised if quite a number of the folks who are generating those emails ignore it like wallpaper, or argue heatedly and vehemently with you, while dredging up various scripture to boot. I say that because at least *some* of those people don't *want* to think, to analyze, or to see any way the book/film could be used in a positive fashion. In other words, don't be surprised if you catch a lot of flack over your email.

BUT... if it manages to make even *one* person stop, think, and implement your ideas... it's worth doing. :)

[Cam63]

Damn Flanders.

[Kyuubi]

I thought the christians loved these movies. What went wrong here?



Did the lion as a symbol for Jesus confuse people?

[Cam63]

Maybe they're just wankers.

[Solaris]

Nope. The Golden Compass has now replaced the Harry Potter movies as the latest "work of the devil!" in these kind of minds.

Honestly, the kind of folks who get wound up over these things are the same kind who'll read a Jack Chick comic... and believe every word of it.:rolleyes:

[Solaris]

I thought the christians loved these movies. What went wrong here?



Did the lion as a symbol for Jesus confuse people?

And you know what else is funny? Even though many Christian scholars and ministers have loved the Narnia series for years... there was still a lot of debate over whether or not it's a proper movie for a Christian family to see.

Go figure.

[kingdom2000]

The way I see it, if a movie (or the book its derived from) can effect someone's faith, their faith wasn't strong enough to begin with.

I think the various leagues involved in actions such as this speaks of their overall lack of faith in god and their lack of faith in their brethen more then anything.

[Paul McEnery]

The way I see it, if a movie (or the book its derived from) can effect someone's faith, their faith wasn't strong enough to begin with.

I think the various leagues involved in actions such as this speaks of their overall lack of faith in god and their lack of faith in their brethen more then anything.

If it doesn't affect people's faith, then it will have failed.

Of course, one hears that the movie has been gutted for fear of setting off the crazy Christians, which is obviously stupid. Go on both barrels blazing, if you're going to get it anyway.

In any case, Pullman isn't gunning for G-d so much as he's gunning for "God", the disagreeable boss monster we inherited from the Babylonians. We can well do without that image of the divine, and if people are worshipping that image as God, then they're idolators and seriously need to rethink their faith.

[Kyuubi]

I think I'm starting to see things from their perspective. You know who I hate? ACTORS! They're out there, pretending to be different people than the lord Jesus Christ of New Orleans Saints created them to be! BURN THEM ALL!



Except Jenna Fischer who plays Pam on The Office.


HOOOOOOOOT!

[Kid Omega]

If it doesn't affect people's faith, then it will have failed.


Pretty much.

SPOILERS FOLLOW

What I'm curious about is... how will the religious stuff be handled in the next two movies? The former nun's speech promoting atheism is easy enough to cut, but when the two gay angels help the protagonists kill God while Asriel leads an military assault on Heaven... that's harder to work around

[KevinTBrown]

Personally, I just want to see the movie to enjoy it. I don't care about any religious implications, whether real or imagined.

It's freakin' fantasy.

[stamen]

Their fear is a product of their doubts about what they themselves believe. There's a marked difference between Paul in Athens (Acts 17) in which he behaves honorably among some radically different ideologies, and the Christian response that followed through the ages. Whether its Voltaire or Harry Potter, the track record here is pretty plain. Any challenge to the way they structure their experiences induces fear.

A strong faith can take about anything without blinking. It can offer intellectual resistance without becoming a brood of murdering jerks.

[Kid Omega]

Personally, I just want to see the movie to enjoy it. I don't care about any religious implications, whether real or imagined.

It's freakin' fantasy.

Oh, we're going to go tonight. The books are some of my favorite modern fantasy.

But unlike HARRY POTTER, when church groups complain about these books, they're absolutely correct. The author wrote them as pro-humanist/atheist parables, and there are very strong anti-religion sentiments explicitly stated throughout.

I could care less either way, as long as the material is, ya know... good, but it's funny to think that for once, all the groups that are protesting are pretty much correct in their assumptions! LOL....

[Hybrid2]

I think I'm starting to see things from their perspective. You know who I hate? ACTORS! They're out there, pretending to be different people than the lord Jesus Christ of New Orleans Saints created them to be! BURN THEM ALL!



Except Jenna Fischer who plays Pam on The Office.


HOOOOOOOOT!

Would'nt she be hotter on fire?

[Bo Bo]

I loved the books and it didn't shake my faith one bit. Now I'm far from being the perfect christian, but while I see his anti-religion statements, I always felt it was more against the fanatical side of things. Come to think of it, that's why those nutjobs hate the book, it is written against them and what they stand for.

Oh and great response Sally, hopefully people complaining will actually read it and follow your advice.

[KevinTBrown]

I loved the books and it didn't shake my faith one bit. Now I'm far from being the perfect christian, but while I see his anti-religion statements, I always felt it was more against the fanatical side of things. Come to think of it, that's why those nutjobs hate the book, it is written against them and what they stand for.

Oh and great response Sally, hopefully people complaining will actually read it and follow your advice.

Man, do I think you hit it square on the head. Great catch there.

I've not read the books at all, but now I'm sorely tempted to do so.

[Kid Omega]

Man, do I think you hit it square on the head. Great catch there.

I've not read the books at all, but now I'm sorely tempted to do so.

They're terrific.

Like I said, some of, if not the, best contemporary fantasy novels out there.

[Bo Bo]

They're terrific.

Like I said, some of, if not the, best contemporary fantasy novels out there.

I agree, they're great books and definately worth reading.

[Night Swordsman]

A very wonderful trilogy i just read last summer.

But i can see some religious concerns over the subject matter,including the third book of the series. The series also changes tones several times during the books.

It will be interesting to see what does and does not make it to the screen.

[MartinRedmond]

I'm curious to see this because it seems original. I was afraid it was derivative of some old poem or fable.

[jesse_custer]

Funny that there's an outrage over these books because of differing belief systems.

If anything, there should be an outrage over yet ANOTHER fantasy book series detailing the conflict between good and evil and how a young person must overcome trying times in her young life. There should be a separate outrage for a film simply cashing in on this recent CGI-laden fantasy film craze.

Therefore, I don't contend these books or film indicate trouble for our souls. I suggest that they prove we have no souls--or critical minds, for that matter--at all.

[Corrina]

The one outrage I've heard over the series was a livid one about some plot events in the second book about the fate of a main character in the first book.

I've always been curious about the books but worried to read them, for fear I'd have this same reaction. Could anyone elaborate a bit on this for me?

[Cayman]

Funny that there's an outrage over these books because of differing belief systems.

If anything, there should be an outrage over yet ANOTHER fantasy book series detailing the conflict between good and evil and how a young person must overcome trying times in her young life. There should be a separate outrage for a film simply cashing in on this recent CGI-laden fantasy film craze.

Therefore, I don't contend these books or film indicate trouble for our souls. I suggest that they prove we have no souls--or critical minds, for that matter--at all.

Well that's dramatic.

[Cayman]

The one outrage I've heard over the series was a livid one about some plot events in the second book about the fate of a main character in the first book.

I've always been curious about the books but worried to read them, for fear I'd have this same reaction. Could anyone elaborate a bit on this for me?

Which character? Lee Scoresby?

[jesse_custer]

Well that's dramatic.

And that's boring.

[Tommy]

If anything, there should be an outrage over yet ANOTHER fantasy book series detailing the conflict between good and evil and how a young person must overcome trying times in her young life.

If we're supposed to be outraged over that then we should just do away with the entire notion of fiction in the first place. And good chunks of non-fiction.

There should be a separate outrage for a film simply cashing in on this recent CGI-laden fantasy film craze.

Of course if we're getting rid of fiction this won't be a problem... but still a movie like "An Inconvenient Truth" might pop up with its CGI maps...

[Cam63]

I just hate it when when Australians are portrayed as loud, beer swilling louts when we're actually loud, beer swilling Phillistines.

[jesse_custer]

If we're supposed to be outraged over that then we should just do away with the entire notion of fiction in the first place. And good chunks of non-fiction.

Entire notion? How did you extrapolate that from my statement? My comments were genre-specific. Not all fictional works cling to this insipid battle between good and evil.

Of course if we're getting rid of fiction this won't be a problem... but still a movie like "An Inconvenient Truth" might pop up with its CGI maps...

CGI can both be overused and misused. Which are more often than not the cases with CGI.

[Corrina]

Which character? Lee Scoresby?

It concerned the girl, to which my friend had gotten really attached.

I'm not familiar with the books and I don't want to spoil stuff, so I'm being ambiguous.

[Cayman]

It concerned the girl, to which my friend had gotten really attached.

I'm not familiar with the books and I don't want to spoil stuff, so I'm being ambiguous.

Oh, maybe the thing where she is prophesized to be "the new Eve" or something?

[Charles RB]

It's freakin' fantasy.

A fantasy which was specifically written by Pullman to put across various views and messages.

Like a lot of stories.

[singoalla]

A fantasy which was specifically written by Pullman to put across various views and messages.

Like a lot of stories.

And a very specific view and message. I sent these books to friends that live in the Bible Belt. I haven't heard anything bad yet so I assume they're ok with em.. or just being polite. :D


Going to see the movie on sunday, to eat a lot of popcorn and watch lee Scoresby and armored polar bears :D

[Tobias March]

I already wrote my review on the TV/Film board, so beyond that I have to say I loved the books. Love 'em. And I've found that the majority of sites targeting the film (obviously more dangerous than the books as most people these days are sub-literate...see that folks! The Church is looking out for you!!) are focusing on a quote from Pullman in an interview were he stated he was an atheist and were he went on to attack the Narnia books.

See that's my real problem with this...it's not like Christian families are being persecuted in the colliseum that is the modern cinema. They have the Narnia films and that Susan Cooper adaptation was made by a Christian director.

My real objection to the film is that it is being deliberately being shoehorned into a LOTR mould by New Line...and that money grubbing fecker Bob Shaye. That's another thread though.

[Mia]

A fantasy which was specifically written by Pullman to put across various views and messages.

Like a lot of stories.


I originally got interested in Pullman's books after I read an article in the Antlantic Monthly where he bashes C.S. Lewis. So I went to Amazon to read some of the reviews on the Trilogy to see if it was worth picking up. And found that most of the opinions were the same.The first book was awesome and the second and third was nothing but a thinly disguised soap box for his anti-God, anti-Christian views and that the story is not that well coherent. So I decided to pass.



For the most part Christians have (wisely) stayed quiet, knowing full well that any outcry will gain the film more publicity. Most of the reviews I have read with regard to the film have complained that there's too much crammed into the two hours, and there isn't much depth to it.

I might check it at a second run film house. However the reviews I've read so far are telling me that it's not worth breaking my neck to go and see it.

[Kid Omega]

I originally got interested in Pullman's books after I read an article in the Antlantic Monthly where he bashes C.S. Lewis. So I went to Amazon to read some of the reviews on the Trilogy to see if it was worth picking up. And found that most of the opinions were the same.The first book was awesome and the second and third was nothing but a thinly disguised soap box for his anti-God, anti-Christian views and that the story is not that well coherent. So I decided to pass.



i would maybe not lay my trust in Amazon reviews.

The books are much better and far more than what you've described them as.

[Tommy]

Entire notion? How did you extrapolate that from my statement? My comments were genre-specific. Not all fictional works cling to this insipid battle between good and evil.
EHHH! Wrong-o! Let's analyze your statement.

If anything, there should be an outrage over yet ANOTHER fantasy book series detailing the conflict between good and evil and how a young person must overcome trying times in her young life.
Fantasy is just a genre. And it is no better nor worse than any other genre. If you wish for outrage about it then along with it there should be outrage over every genre of fiction.

The battle between Good vs. Evil is what we call "conflict." In any fictional work there is going to be a side that the reader sympathizes with (even if it is different sides for different readers) which will be the good side, and the other side of the conflict thus becomes the evil side. Even Pride & Prejudice had that.

And of course "Young person must overcome trying times in her young life" is what we refer to as "Dynamic characterization" along with a heaping dose of "conflict."

Your dislike is so wildly vague that 99% of all fiction falls into it. You basically are saying you want a book where everybody agrees with each other and no one changes. The end.

CGI can both be overused and misused. Which are more often than not the cases with CGI.

CGI is a tool. The aproprietness and believability of which can be debated from film to film. However, while possible to do the Golden Compass without it, it would look like Clash of the Titans.

[Mia]

I often consult Amazon before buying a book or a film to gage whether it's worth my time or money.

If the complaints are silly or superficial then I ignore them. However I tend to pay attention to reviews that are in depth and well thought out. And many of the reviews on the Subtle Knife and Amber Spyglass have gone into great depth, and have shown me that it won't appeal to me.

[Kid Omega]

If the reviews boiled down the novels into how you previously described them, then said reviews are full of poop.

[Paul McEnery]

I originally got interested in Pullman's books after I read an article in the Antlantic Monthly where he bashes C.S. Lewis. So I went to Amazon to read some of the reviews on the Trilogy to see if it was worth picking up. And found that most of the opinions were the same.The first book was awesome and the second and third was nothing but a thinly disguised soap box for his anti-God, anti-Christian views and that the story is not that well coherent. So I decided to pass.

For the most part Christians have (wisely) stayed quiet, knowing full well that any outcry will gain the film more publicity. Most of the reviews I have read with regard to the film have complained that there's too much crammed into the two hours, and there isn't much depth to it.


Do I detect a disconnect?

Because it seems to me that some asinine Christians have been swarming Amazon.

If I were you, I'd read the book rather than rely on malicious hearsay.

Although such transparent malicious hearsay is a good guide if you do the opposite of what it suggests.

[Paul McEnery]

The battle between Good vs. Evil is what we call "conflict." In any fictional work there is going to be a side that the reader sympathizes with (even if it is different sides for different readers) which will be the good side, and the other side of the conflict thus becomes the evil side. Even Pride & Prejudice had that.

I refer you to the work of William Burroughs and Michael Moorcock, to name but two.

[Sabrinaset]

I'm not really planning on seeing the movie, although if I end up doing so, I seriously doubt my faith will be affected by something as flimsy as this. It would be almost as ridiculous as saying that my scientific views were affected after watching Spider-Man II.

On the other hand, I also remember reading some similar tripe about The Passion of the Christ by a few non-believers when that came out awhile back.

[Kid Omega]

I refer you to the work of William Burroughs and Michael Moorcock, to name but two.

Heck, even the DARK MATERIALS books are not as clear-cut as things initially seem... the "good" and "evil" bents become kind of meaningless by the end, and it becomes about dealing things far less binary and simple, and more complicated and difficult....

Is there even really a "villiain", persay?

[Paul McEnery]

Heck, even the DARK MATERIALS books are not as clear-cut as things initially seem... the "good" and "evil" bents become kind of meaningless by the end, and it becomes about dealing things far less binary and simple, and more complicated and difficult....

Is there even really a "villiain", persay?

SPOILERS!!!!!!!

Entropy?

[Paul McEnery]

I'm not really planning on seeing the movie, although if I end up doing so, I seriously doubt my faith will be affected by something as flimsy as this. It would be almost as ridiculous as saying that my scientific views were affected after watching Spider-Man II.

On the other hand, I also remember reading some similar tripe about The Passion of the Christ by a few non-believers when that came out awhile back.

What, that it was a load of anti-semitic bollocks from an anti-semitic bollox? Well so it was, so it was.

Or at least, so I've heard... :D

[Michael P]

There's only one question I need answered before I decide to give a rip about this series, but I can't ask it here.

[Kid Omega]

SPOILERS!!!!!!!

Entropy?

LOL...

Well played, sir.

[Kid Omega]

There's only one question I need answered before I decide to give a rip about this series, but I can't ask it here.

PM me?

......

[Reverend Smooth]

But unlike HARRY POTTER, when church groups complain about these books, they're absolutely correct.Only if they're abusive, power-mongering fearful churches. If they're kind, compassionate churches, they aren't the ones the author is describing.

The churches that protest too much are pretty clearly showing what sorts of folks they are.

[MacQuarrie]

I thought the christians loved these movies. What went wrong here?



Did the lion as a symbol for Jesus confuse people?

You're confusing two very different series. The Narnia books are allegorical retellings of Christian doctrine. The Golden Compass is not part of that series, and was in fact written as a refutation of it.

But Sally's response is brilliant. I'm going to forward it to a few people right now.

[Kid Omega]

Only if they're abusive, power-mongering fearful churches. If they're kind, compassionate churches, they aren't the ones the author is describing.


Actually.....

[The Xenos]

I'm not going to read your damn blog! Well, that is because I don't want to spoil the book or movie.

I'm of the mind that I should see something and judge it for myself. Well, except for Transformers. The comments from Michael Bay were blasphemy enough. Plus the clips I saw were terrible. By the Matrix, till all are one! Amen.

Anyway, when it comes to something being sacreligious, I like to see at least some of it first. Please, go ahead and test my faith. Hell, I might even get a good laugh at how wrong they get it. (Humper dumper doo!)

Geez, if a simple book or movie is going to ruin your faith, then I guess your faith wasn't that great to begin with! To me that's the fact that kills me. That's what these idiots fail to miss. If something is blasphemous and tests your faith, well, maybe you should dive in. In the past Christians were killed, thrown to lions, and crucified themselves. What's you're horrible challenge? Oh no. You have to go see a movie written by an atheist! Oh no! You have to raise children in the same world as these terrible atheist authors who are clearly in league with the dark master Satan himself. Poor you!

Jesus Christ.. help these poor saps. Cause they don't seem to be listening to anyone else. Then again, they don't seem to be listening much to you either.

Though recently I did feel the need to drop a book based on rather insulting comments on Christianity. I got the new issue of the Wachowski brothers' Doc Frankenstein. I was really turned off by the sacrilege in that book. It seemed too juvenile. Yet for some reason I still loved Garth Ennis's Chronicles of Wormwood. I guess the delays on Doc

[Night Swordsman]

For the most part Christians have (wisely) stayed quiet, knowing full well that any outcry will gain the film more publicity. Most of the reviews I have read with regard to the film have complained that there's too much crammed into the two hours, and there isn't much depth to it.
I might check it at a second run film house. However the reviews I've read so far are telling me that it's not worth breaking my neck to go and see it.

I decided after reading several reviews,online and offline,to just go see the movie.
I am sad to say that the above bolded statement hit some of the problems with the movie right on the head. Where it takes from the book,it works wonderfully. What is not stated,and the only inkling i had was from a cryptic statement about the movie on scifi.com about "alternate ending".

The fact is,they went for a hollywood ending for the movie,rather than use the BOOKS ending. From what i am understanding,they are saving that for the beginning of the second movie.

Here is my problem with that: If you are so WORRIED that the books ending will NOT work well,due to a plot twist and some unhappy momments,why MAKE the movie in the first place? And the ending you give us is so forced and ubrupt that it just is upsetting. I honestly swear,from the audience,i heard several people going"That's it??" and "huh?". One of the themes of the books is showing truth,not showing us what we want. Wished the filmmakers had guts to show us the real ending rather than tacking it on the beginning of a supposed sequel.:mad:

[sk716]

. . .



CGI is a tool. The aproprietness and believability of which can be debated from film to film. However, while possible to do the Golden Compass without it, it would look like Clash of the Titans.

Why you gotta be picking on Clash of the Titans?

[Tommy]

Heck, even the DARK MATERIALS books are not as clear-cut as things initially seem... the "good" and "evil" bents become kind of meaningless by the end, and it becomes about dealing things far less binary and simple, and more complicated and difficult....

Is there even really a "villiain", persay?

By the end there are at least four sides, Lyra and Will, Mrs. Coulter, Lord Azrial, and the Authority. Which means that even if one side was wholly good and the other wholly evil, there would still be two side that were morally ambiguous.

[Sally Sensational]

My father's response to my rebuttal (he's the one who forwarded me all of the original emails):

"I thought that would make you put your thinking cap on."

In other words, the man purposefully goaded me into responding. But then, I'm the one who, when my brother went on an anti-Potter crusade, handed my mom the book and told her to find out for herself. And he's the one who told me to always think and read for myself - including the Bible - and make my own decisions about interpretation, etc.

Oh, and a big OOPS that I didn't put a spoiler warning on that thing. Sorry, folks. Wasn't thinking in that direction.

[heystacy]

Why you gotta be picking on Clash of the Titans?

I have Clash on DVD. It is so good. I heard that it was going to be remade. Not to run too far on a tangent.

[heystacy]

My father's response to my rebuttal (he's the one who forwarded me all of the original emails):

"I thought that would make you put your thinking cap on."

In other words, the man purposefully goaded me into responding. But then, I'm the one who, when my brother went on an anti-Potter crusade, handed my mom the book and told her to find out for herself. And he's the one who told me to always think and read for myself - including the Bible - and make my own decisions about interpretation, etc.

Oh, and a big OOPS that I didn't put a spoiler warning on that thing. Sorry, folks. Wasn't thinking in that direction.

That's fine. I love the rebuttal. You make excellent points. I do want to see the movie for myself.

[MacQuarrie]

My father's response to my rebuttal (he's the one who forwarded me all of the original emails):

"I thought that would make you put your thinking cap on."

In other words, the man purposefully goaded me into responding. But then, I'm the one who, when my brother went on an anti-Potter crusade, handed my mom the book and told her to find out for herself. And he's the one who told me to always think and read for myself - including the Bible - and make my own decisions about interpretation, etc.

Oh, and a big OOPS that I didn't put a spoiler warning on that thing. Sorry, folks. Wasn't thinking in that direction.
A big salute to your dad.

I've told my kids, never take anybody's word for anything; not even mine. Know what you believe and why you believe it and be ready to explain it to anyone who asks, and the explanation better not be "my dad said so".

[Dazzler]

I was totally uninterested in watching this movie until I heard that Christian groups were bad-mouthing it. Now I can't wait to see it.

If I can love the Narnia books because of what some people describe as pro-Christian ideals (although I've always seen the White Witch as the Hebrew, Old-Testament God and Aslan as Jesus myself...but whatever), I can also take interest in the Golden Compass because of its opposing viewpoint.

--Dazz

[Night Swordsman]

Why you gotta be picking on Clash of the Titans?

I have all the action figures from when the movie released,including the Kraken. :)

[Magneto_X]

It's about time athiests got a film like this.

I've seen to many movies where athiesm is a bad thing and that the main character's journey is (re)discovering their Christianity.

The fact that the fundies are pissed that Golden Compass is something that can take them on an even playing field (re: Narnia) shows how hypocritical they are. They sure weren't complaining about movies where Christianity is used subtly in films.

Is His Dark Materials for kids? I never got the impression. Thought it was like Pan's Labyrinth: child protagonist, film not for kids.

Plus who can not like a film about armoured polar bears? :D

[Phoney Bone]

Why you gotta be picking on Clash of the Titans?

http://www.movieactors.com/freezeframes5/blazingsad31.jpeg

Harumph! Harumph!

In the nearly two decades since the water-probe appeared in Abyss, the only completely CGI creature that has come close to capturing the same sense of fantasy as Ray Harryhausen's stop-motion creatures is Gollum. Why even bother watching a fantasy movie when movie-makers try to make everything seem "real" with CGI?

I'll take stop-motion, rod puppets, make-up effects and suitmation over CGI any day.

CONSARNIT!

[Kyuubi]

I have all the action figures from when the movie released,including the Kraken. :)



RELEASE THE KRAKEN!




Or don't. Whatever.

[Solaris]

I often consult Amazon before buying a book or a film to gage whether it's worth my time or money.

If the complaints are silly or superficial then I ignore them. However I tend to pay attention to reviews that are in depth and well thought out. And many of the reviews on the Subtle Knife and Amber Spyglass have gone into great depth, and have shown me that it won't appeal to me.

Honestly, what I remember from reading them when they came out was:

A. I enjoyed the first book, even though it was a bit puzzling at times.

B. I gave up on the second book. It was like some other author came in and wrote what he *thought* the story and it's continuation was about. Kind of like seeing the first half of the Narnia: Lion Witch and Wardrobe film... and then they put in the second reel, and it's Total Recall---and you're sitting there thinking "How the hell did we get HERE?" The second book was so bad, and so frustrating, that I literally made myself forget pretty much everything I read in it.

As for the movie, it looks like a fun action/fantasy/cg film... so we're definitely going. I really don't care how closely it matches the book (because he totally lost my interest with book 2), so long as it's an enjoyable film, which going by the previews, it looks to be.

[steeler80]

I really don't understand this type of thing. As a Christian, I played a little D and D as a kid in middle school, I've read the Harry Potter books, and I intend to go see the Golden Compass. None of these activities have ever caused me to doubt much less turn away from my faith. It's fiction, I treated it as such--as a pleasant diversion.

It's this type of activity that promotes the backlash against Christianity and isn't representative of most Christians (at least I hope not). If these things somehow offended my religious beliefs, I just wouldn't read/watch them. I wouldn't try to get them banned (banning books or movies is a huge pet peeve of mine anyway).

[Ed Cunard]

The battle between Good vs. Evil is what we call "conflict." In any fictional work there is going to be a side that the reader sympathizes with (even if it is different sides for different readers) which will be the good side, and the other side of the conflict thus becomes the evil side. Even Pride & Prejudice had that.

Conflict, yes. However, "Good vs. Evil" is a specific conflict, and "Supreme Good vs. Total Evil" is, from what I understand, a persistent trope in fantasy novels, and it works well in the hands of good authors but, let's face it, the majority of authors in any genre are, well, shit.

I haven't read the books or seen the movie--my first exposure to THE GOLDEN COMPASS was in one of those weekly store flyers. While scanning for Christmas gifts I saw toys of Armored! Polar Bears! and thought "Awesome!"

Cox, you know my taste pretty well--should I pick up the book? I still haven't read that other fantasy book you told me I should read, but it's not like I'm not going to have a bunch of free time on my hands for a while.

[Kid Omega]

Conflict, yes. However, "Good vs. Evil" is a specific conflict, and "Supreme Good vs. Total Evil" is, from what I understand, a persistent trope in fantasy novels, and it works well in the hands of good authors but, let's face it, the majority of authors in any genre are, well, shit.

I haven't read the books or seen the movie--my first exposure to THE GOLDEN COMPASS was in one of those weekly store flyers. While scanning for Christmas gifts I saw toys of Armored! Polar Bears! and thought "Awesome!"

Cox, you know my taste pretty well--should I pick up the book? I still haven't read that other fantasy book you told me I should read, but it's not like I'm not going to have a bunch of free time on my hands for a while.

I dunno... they're quick reads, and move slowly and steadily from "alt reality kid's adventure" to "ruminative parable on the nature of good/evil/growing up/being human/free will".

Couldn't hurt to try them...

[Mia]

Honestly, what I remember from reading them when they came out was:

A. I enjoyed the first book, even though it was a bit puzzling at times.

B. I gave up on the second book. It was like some other author came in and wrote what he *thought* the story and it's continuation was about. Kind of like seeing the first half of the Narnia: Lion Witch and Wardrobe film... and then they put in the second reel, and it's Total Recall---and you're sitting there thinking "How the hell did we get HERE?" The second book was so bad, and so frustrating, that I literally made myself forget pretty much everything I read in it..


BINGO!

That's exactly what I was refering to and what most of the reviews on Amazon said. Even the positive reviews of the book warned religious people not to pick it up or to be prepared for castigation of the Church/Christianity.

Not that I can't deal with Christian/religion bashing--as long as it isn't the raison d'etre of the book. And there's a very good and coherent story.
However Pullman just sounds like he has an axe to grind. I have a big problem with agenda writing



As for the movie, it looks like a fun action/fantasy/cg film... so we're definitely going. I really don't care how closely it matches the book (because he totally lost my interest with book 2), so long as it's an enjoyable film, which going by the previews, it looks to be.

I liked the trailer, and became intrigued about the alternate version of earth.

However when I caught an 8 minute preview of some scenes on Youtube, I just found it dry and sorry to say I just can't see myself rooting for that little girl. I just found her obnoxious.

[Kid Omega]

BINGO!

That's exactly what I was refering to and what most of the reviews on Amazon said. Even the positive reviews of the book warned religious people not to pick it up or to be prepared for castigation of the Church/Christianity.

Not that I can't deal with Christian/religion bashing--as long as it isn't the raison d'etre of the book. And there's a very good and coherent story.
However Pullman just sounds like he has an axe to grind. I have a big problem with agenda writing





There really is a lot more to them than that.

But really, what does "agenda writing" even mean? Was Gene Wolfe "agenda writing" with the Book of the New Sun just because it heavily delves into catholic imagery and themes, and promotes a Christ-allegory?

Soetimes themes just show up in fiction , and Pullman's humanist worldview is just as valid as the Shinto of Tezuka, and etc etc

[Cayman]

I saw it this morning. Although it's mostly good, they totally messed up the ending.

[Cam63]

RELEASE THE KRAKEN!




Or don't. Whatever.

The Plumber's Kraken is way scarier.

[heystacy]

I have all the action figures from when the movie released,including the Kraken. :)

You always get the fun stuff. ;)

[Paul McEnery]

There really is a lot more to them than that.

But really, what does "agenda writing" even mean? Was Gene Wolfe "agenda writing" with the Book of the New Sun just because it heavily delves into catholic imagery and themes, and promotes a Christ-allegory?

Soetimes themes just show up in fiction , and Pullman's humanist worldview is just as valid as the Shinto of Tezuka, and etc etc

I think she means books whose point of view contradicts hers.

Figure she probably ought to give Behold the Man and A Case of Conscience a miss.

[jesse_custer]

EHHH! Wrong-o! Let's analyze your statement.


Fantasy is just a genre. And it is no better nor worse than any other genre. If you wish for outrage about it then along with it there should be outrage over every genre of fiction.

The battle between Good vs. Evil is what we call "conflict." In any fictional work there is going to be a side that the reader sympathizes with (even if it is different sides for different readers) which will be the good side, and the other side of the conflict thus becomes the evil side. Even Pride & Prejudice had that.

And of course "Young person must overcome trying times in her young life" is what we refer to as "Dynamic characterization" along with a heaping dose of "conflict."

Your dislike is so wildly vague that 99% of all fiction falls into it. You basically are saying you want a book where everybody agrees with each other and no one changes. The end.



CGI is a tool. The aproprietness and believability of which can be debated from film to film. However, while possible to do the Golden Compass without it, it would look like Clash of the Titans.

First of all, I don't see how you're "analyzing my statement." Your first few paragraphs make several assumptions that I would not make myself. Therefore, it seems more likely that you're sharing your viewpoint.

Personally, I believe the fantasy genre isn't as strong as other genres in terms of innovative literary devices and the like. I'm not saying fantasy stories can't be good; in fact, I would include several of them in a greatest stories of all time list. However, the contemporary context I observe is pathetic. The fantasy genre is overwhelmingly full of content writers and readers. And you know what? To me an artform--or a genre--benefits most from writers and readers who demand more than just age-old good vs. evil conflicts.

Next, it is true that readers usually sympathize with a side. However, this doesn't mean that a side has to be part of the hackneyed good vs. evil conflict. How about "To Build A Fire" by Jack London? There's a helluva conflict there, but it has nothing to do with good vs. evil. You can sympathize with the character without calling nature the "bad" or "evil" or "wrong" side. Or look at "Deadwood." Most of the time you could easily sympathize--or rather, support--Al Swearengen, but his side is hardly the most moral or correct one. Now, are there probably too many man vs. nature conflicts? Yes. The point is that we shouldn't be content with mediocre and generic variations on these specific thematic conflicts.

Now, a young person going through trying times is not deft characterization by itself. In fact, it's an extremely overused plot device in genre fiction aimed at younger audiences.

So, as you can see, I certainly don't believe there should be no conflict. And I would suggest that you are simply ignoring countless examples--famous examples, even--of conflicts other than good vs. evil in literature if you continue to claim that 99 percent must fall under this label.

And have you ever thought that what we have come to accept as a good vs. evil conflict may not even truly represent that conflict? That, instead, we simply assumed that the good vs. evil frame exists? Perhaps "Conan the Barbarian" really isn't about a Samaritan rightfully avenging the deaths of his villagers, slain by the hand of a wicked man. Maybe it's just people kicking ass and shedding blood. There's a conflict: man vs. man, with no particular attention to morality.

[Magneto_X]

What do you mean by "fantasy" exactly? Do you mean all sci-fi or just the "sword & sorcery" genre?

If you're saying all fantasy (from sci-fi to magic-based tales) are not complex you're wrong.

See Discworld, Honor Harrington, Firefly, Buffy/Angel, Dresden Files. I'm sure there are more along with them.

[jesse_custer]

I didn't say fantasy stories couldn't be complex. Also, when I say "fantasy" I'm not referring to science fiction. Perhaps I'm not using the term traditionally, but why we should term science fiction "fantasy" when we have continually seen the science fiction genre actually influence our own reality?

[Kid Omega]

Now, a young person going through trying times is not deft characterization by itself. In fact, it's an extremely overused plot device in genre fiction aimed at younger audiences.


Yeah... that "character versus conflict" thing sure is overused.

In every thing ever written.

Please be more general in your vague complaints.

[Magneto_X]

I didn't say fantasy stories couldn't be complex. Also, when I say "fantasy" I'm not referring to science fiction. Perhaps I'm not using the term traditionally, but why we should term science fiction "fantasy" when we have continually seen the science fiction genre actually influence our own reality?

"Fantasy" and "sci-fi" can be used interchangable in discussions at times. You're going to be have to be more specific.

[jesse_custer]

Omega, young person vs. trying times is a type of character vs. conflict. Therefore, my statement involves a specific, not general, literary device.

Magneto, we've already established that sci-fi and fantasy can be used interchangeably. And I just said that I wasn't talking about science fiction. So from that, one could deduce that I'm talking about stories that are similar in genre to "The Golden Compass," which is not science fiction (not that it doesn't contains elements of the genre).

[Magneto_X]

Jesse:

Fair enough.

[Michael P]

Magneto, we've already established that sci-fi and fantasy can be used interchangeably.

The hell we have. Because they're not.

[Corrina]

Fantasy and science fiction are two distinct genres.

I don't think any *genre* is inherently inferior to any other genre. You can say a fight of good versus evil isn't interesting but the point of Tolkien's work is that there is evil inside all of us but that it can be overcome, sometimes even through mercy--hence Gollum would not be alive at the end to basically save Frodo from his own mistakes.

Mysteries depend on solving the crime. Romance depends on the couple (or more than a couple) involved deciding to be together at the end. High fantasy depens on good eventually overcoming evil. Urban fantasy is more about setting, literary fiction seems to be able taking ordinary events and finding meaning in them.

Supposedly there are only three basic plots: man vs. man, man vs. nature and man vs. himself. But that's really meaningless.

The trappings or genre of a story is beside the point. It's the people and the characters in the story that reveal the depth and breadth of a work. People look at Tolkien and think 'elves! battles!' but it's about Frodo and his faith that evil can be overcome, about Sam's faith in Frodo, about Gandalf's faith in humanity, and about people who lose faith, like Denethor, and about how good can overcome but there will be scars that sometimes cannot be completely healed. It's a complex story because the characters are complex.

Sure, there's a lot of crap by the numbers fantasy. But there are wonderful stories as well. But to say it's unworthy because of a particular plot device "young hero needs to come into their own to save the world," is saying things like Lloyd Alexander's Prydian series or even the legend of King Arthur is inherently inferior.

It's not. It's just not a story that calls to you. Or the execution is bad.

Of course, there's always Spider-Man. Which is...oh, about a young boy finding a power to save the world. Or Superman, a young boy growing into his powers to become the world's protector or....

There are gazillions of plots to write even within those boundaries. Some of those are going to be crap. Most of them, actually, but it's not because of the genre. It's the execution.

[Kid Omega]

Omega, young person vs. trying times is a type of character vs. conflict. Therefore, my statement involves a specific, not general, literary device.


That's still pretty durn general, man.

[jesse_custer]

The hell we have. Because they're not.

I agree, but I'm simply entertaining Magneto's argument.

And Corrina, I never said genre determines whether a story is good or bad. You should really reread my arguments.

[MacQuarrie]

"Genre" is a set of codes for a type of story. If you know the code, you know the story. There's a set of assumptions and agreements that go into a genre story, things that are supposed to be accepted without questioning, and those assumptions don't work in other genres. The elements in a detective story that require "suspension of disbelief" are not the same ones in a fantasy, romance, or science fiction story.

It happens that a lot of the assumptions in a fantasy story are similar to those in some flavors of SF (and remember, kids, "sci-fi" is a vulgar barbarism, a term used only to convey contempt for a certain subset of lowbrow science-fiction more concerned with "gee-whiz" gadgetry than with speculative fiction in general; Ellison, Niven, Sturgeon, Bradbury and Heinlein are NOT "sci-fi".)

Plot and story are not the same.

Plot: "The queen died and then the king died."
Story: "The queen died and then the king died of a broken heart."

Genre is a of telling a particular story. The same story can be told in any genre, simply by changing which elements are important.

The literary device of "young person vs. trying times" can be (and is) found in any and all genres of fiction, from the fantasy of Narnia to the realism of "Catcher in the Rye" to the historic fiction of "Johnny Tremain" or the sci-fi of Anakin Skywalker or any number of other stories.

It's not a very specific point at all.

Here's a plot:
"After being implicated in the death of an elderly woman, a young runaway girl travels across the country in the company of three strange males before ultimately killing another old lady."

Could be a dark and violent story about serial killers on the loose... or it could be "The Wizard of Oz." It's all in how the story is told.

[jesse_custer]

"Genre" is a set of codes for a type of story. If you know the code, you know the story. There's a set of assumptions and agreements that go into a genre story, things that are supposed to be accepted without questioning, and those assumptions don't work in other genres. The elements in a detective story that require "suspension of disbelief" are not the same ones in a fantasy, romance, or science fiction story.

Although my comments weren't this specific, I think I already implied that the fantasy genre--aimed at younger audiences--has a code that is "supposed to be accepted." I even made the point that within this particular genre, the writers and audience are seemingly content. I am against elongated periods of contentness, if you will. Things must change in the genres, rules must change, in order for the artform to grow as a whole. In short, it's time to stop making assumptions and start demanding more fresh ideas within the genre.

(and remember, kids, "sci-fi" is a vulgar barbarism, a term used only to convey contempt for a certain subset of lowbrow science-fiction more concerned with "gee-whiz" gadgetry than with speculative fiction in general; Ellison, Niven, Sturgeon, Bradbury and Heinlein are NOT "sci-fi".)

I disagree with this broad conclusion. Other people, including myself, use the term sci-fi as an abbreviation, not as an attack. That's why it's important for us to clarify our own usages, I suppose.

It's all in how the story is told.

Yes, and I agree plot and story aren't the same. In fact, I think this statement implies your very point:

Now, are there probably too many man vs. nature conflicts? Yes. The point is that we shouldn't be content with mediocre and generic variations on these specific thematic conflicts.

However, notice that I'm not just damning this cycle of plots or these "generic variations," which could be thought of as "stories." Within the fantasy genre aimed at younger audiences, I am damning both the incessant cycle of similar plots and the pathetic stories that are supposed to make me forget that they have essentially the same conflict. Sometimes, genre-wise, a plot has had all it can take, and there aren't that many good stories left to tell. That's when it's time for a change.

Look at the revenge subgenre, for instance. I think "Oldboy" injected much needed life in that very tired and standard category. It changed the rules, and now that subgenre--and the artform as a whole--is better, more diverse, and more engaging.

In sum, I just like to see newer--or somewhat newer--creations.

[Reverend Smooth]

Here's a plot:
"After being implicated in the death of an elderly woman, a young runaway girl travels across the country in the company of three strange males before ultimately killing another old lady."

Could be a dark and violent story about serial killers on the loose... or it could be "The Wizard of Oz." It's all in how the story is told.Perfect. :3

[Paul McEnery]

"Genre" is a set of codes for a type of story. If you know the code, you know the story. There's a set of assumptions and agreements that go into a genre story, things that are supposed to be accepted without questioning, and those assumptions don't work in other genres. The elements in a detective story that require "suspension of disbelief" are not the same ones in a fantasy, romance, or science fiction story.

It happens that a lot of the assumptions in a fantasy story are similar to those in some flavors of SF (and remember, kids, "sci-fi" is a vulgar barbarism, a term used only to convey contempt for a certain subset of lowbrow science-fiction more concerned with "gee-whiz" gadgetry than with speculative fiction in general; Ellison, Niven, Sturgeon, Bradbury and Heinlein are NOT "sci-fi".)
.

I gaved up on this one. Bookstores and the media everywhere. Can't win. Only turn it around and reclaim it for the community, like "queer".

Mind, I also snobbishly pronounce it skiffy.

[Paul McEnery]

All genre fiction tends to the conservative, like an AC/DC album. People come back to hear and read the exact same thing they liked before. And fair enough, I suppose. But it saddens me that there are people turning from an unsatisfactory life, whose conventionality stifles their imagination, only to find a rote repetition of conventional tropes. And god knows that's the majority of post Shannarah fantasy.

And there's a case to be made that both Tolkein and Lewis are responsible for bringing this to the table, since both of them snuck in a nostalgiste agenda of a pre-war Eden.

[Tobias March]

All genre fiction tends to the conservative, like an AC/DC album. People come back to hear and read the exact same thing they liked before. And fair enough, I suppose. But it saddens me that there are people turning from an unsatisfactory life, whose conventionality stifles their imagination, only to find a rote repetition of conventional tropes. And god knows that's the majority of post Shannarah fantasy.

And there's a case to be made that both Tolkein and Lewis are responsible for bringing this to the table, since both of them snuck in a nostalgiste agenda of a pre-war Eden.

Terry Brooks has an awful lot to answer for.

Also I can't believe something I enjoyed as much as His Dark Materials has inspired so much bloody minded stupidity.

[Paul McEnery]

Terry Brooks has an awful lot to answer for.

Also I can't believe something I enjoyed as much as His Dark Materials has inspired so much bloody minded stupidity.

I think the word you're looking for is "occasioned".

[Corrina]

And Corrina, I never said genre determines whether a story is good or bad. You should really reread my arguments.

YOu made a pretty sweeping statement about relating fantasy to a element of the coming-of-age story and implying that was inherently inferior.

[Corrina]

It happens that a lot of the assumptions in a fantasy story are similar to those in some flavors of SF (and remember, kids, "sci-fi" is a vulgar barbarism, a term used only to convey contempt for a certain subset of lowbrow science-fiction more concerned with "gee-whiz" gadgetry than with speculative fiction in general; Ellison, Niven, Sturgeon, Bradbury and Heinlein are NOT "sci-fi".)



We're not going to get into Sci-fi versus SF are we? Because that's a silly argument, with the SF people having their noses in the air about the pronounciation.

Now, if you want to say speculative fiction is a subset, I'd agree with you because the point of that it to take an element that just might develop and see what happens when it's introduced into society. A specific type of story.

But to say there's lowbrow and highbrow SF, eh. As you said, it's all about the execution.

[Tobias March]

I think the word you're looking for is "occasioned".

I'd like to think so, but there's such a righteous air to some of the comments I've read.

I think they've been touched by the spirit of the Lord.

[jesse_custer]

YOu made a pretty sweeping statement about relating fantasy to a element of the coming-of-age story and implying that was inherently inferior.

I didn't say it was "inherently" anything. Obviously, the quality of a story rests with each writer. However, it just so happens that fantasy aimed at younger audiences tends to be more formulaic and less interesting--and therefore, less valid in my eyes--than other genres. It's only a viewpoint, and I think a more legitimate one than disliking a story because of its author's personal beliefs.

[Paul McEnery]

I'd like to think so, but there's such a righteous air to some of the comments I've read.

I think they've been touched by the spirit of the Lord.

In an inappropriate place.

[Reverend Smooth]

Oh God! Oh God!

Bless me, father, for I have sinned.

Mea culpa.

[MacQuarrie]

I gaved up on this one. Bookstores and the media everywhere. Can't win. Only turn it around and reclaim it for the community, like "queer".

Mind, I also snobbishly pronounce it skiffy.

So do I!

heh.

[Paul McEnery]

Oh God! Oh God!

Bless me, father, for I have sinned.

Mea culpa.

Mea maxima culpa.

Oh yes, I do always have to one up you.

As it were.

http://www.actlab.utexas.edu/~chelsea/images/berniniTeresa1.jpg

[Ninja Kris]

A few of us read the book at B&N, and weren't impressed. OK book, though.

Didn't get a staff recommendation from anyone here. The boxed set is selling briskly though. Think it's in 10th place in sales this week.

[Reverend Smooth]

Mea maxima culpa.

Oh yes, I do always have to one up you.

As it were.

http://www.actlab.utexas.edu/~chelsea/images/berniniTeresa1.jpgI'd hit it.

Paul has a complex~

[Briareos]

He you know what I'll write a book where a obvious Muslim church parallel is the bad guys and at the end Mohammad is revealed to be a fraud and killed.

Wonder if you'd have everyone on the left protesting that anyone who complains about it just doesn't get it...

[Ninja Kris]

He you know what I'll write a book where a obvious Muslim church parallel is the bad guys and at the end Mohammad is revealed to be a fraud and killed.

Wonder if you'd have everyone on the left protesting that anyone who complains about it just doesn't get it...

Ever heard of Salman Rushdie?

[Kid Omega]

He you know what I'll write a book where a obvious Muslim church parallel is the bad guys and at the end Mohammad is revealed to be a fraud and killed.

Wonder if you'd have everyone on the left protesting that anyone who complains about it just doesn't get it...

Who said that "anyone who complains about GOLDEN COMPASS just doesn't get it"?

If you're a religious person, there's plenty to be upset by in these books, no matter what your faith.

Or they can be easily ignored/read for entertainment solely/taken with a grain of a salt/etc...

That was a nice attempt at turning this into a partisan politcial thread, though.

[Tobias March]

He you know what I'll write a book where a obvious Muslim church parallel is the bad guys and at the end Mohammad is revealed to be a fraud and killed.

Wonder if you'd have everyone on the left protesting that anyone who complains about it just doesn't get it...

'achem' - Chronicles of Narnia.....I mean come on sir.

[Ninja Kris]

Who said that "anyone who complains about GOLDEN COMPASS just doesn't get it"?

If you're a religious person, there's plenty to be upset by in these books, no matter what your faith.

Or they can be easily ignored/read for entertainment solely/taken with a grain of a salt/etc...

That was a nice attempt at turning this into a partisan politcial thread, though.

Briareos' question could be better explained.

Many Christian fundies complaining about the film. In this thread, posters shooting complaints back. Talking about how intolerant the fundies are. Which is true.

If Briareos made a book mocking Islam in the same vein, when the inevitable Islamic backlash came, would the same people calling Christian fundies intolerant say the same of the Islamic fundies?

Had to read the books for B&N. It's bashing Catholicism more than mere organized religion. Which was to me the only interesting part of the book. Didn't care for it otherwise.

[Tobias March]

SPOILERS for His Dark Materials...






The difference between Lewis taking the piss out of Muslims and Pullman (or indeed Rushdie) doing the same to organised religion is that the latter do not accept the first premise of the religious. Namely that there is a god.

So when Christians protest the Golden Compass saying that it features a storyline that revolves around killing God the obvious answer is of course it doesn't. Because the entity in question is not God.

Whereas Lewis depicted characters based upon Muslims being sent to hell because they were Muslims.

[Reverend Smooth]

Briareos, christians are in the majority and in no way threatened by a book that takes issue with authoritarian bullshit. Stop acting like a weenie victim and grow a thick-skinned pair of cojones.

[Paul McEnery]

He you know what I'll write a book where a obvious Muslim church parallel is the bad guys and at the end Mohammad is revealed to be a fraud and killed.

Wonder if you'd have everyone on the left protesting that anyone who complains about it just doesn't get it...

Before you try writing a book, you might want to try mastering the form of the single sentence.

[Paul McEnery]

Who said that "anyone who complains about GOLDEN COMPASS just doesn't get it"?

If you're a religious person, there's plenty to be upset by in these books, no matter what your faith.

Or they can be easily ignored/read for entertainment solely/taken with a grain of a salt/etc...

That was a nice attempt at turning this into a partisan politcial thread, though.

After all, there's nothing so unChristian as a message that says "thou shalt not worship graven images".

[Kid Omega]

If Briareos made a book mocking Islam in the same vein, when the inevitable Islamic backlash came, would the same people calling Christian fundies intolerant say the same of the Islamic fundies?
[/COLOR]

Indubitably!

Have you ever heard anyone say that teh Taliban was a-okay for banning dancing?

Islamic fundies get it just as hard as Christian fundies.

[Ninja Kris]

'achem' - Chronicles of Narnia.....I mean come on sir.

Is this in one of the sequels? Only read the first book.

[Reverend Smooth]

It always makes me wonder when christians complain about being persecuted. Scripture tells them to welcome persecution. Should I quote the relevant scripture to remind them of this, since it seems like Briareos hasn't bothered reading his?

[Paul McEnery]

Is this in one of the sequels? Only read the first book.

A Boy and His Horse.

[Kid Omega]

It's bashing Catholicism more than mere organized religion. [/COLOR]

I would say that that is subject to a variety interpretation, on a number of levels.

[Paul McEnery]

It always makes me wonder when christians complain about being persecuted. Scripture tells them to welcome persecution. Should I quote the relevant scripture to remind them of this, since it seems like Briareos hasn't bothered reading his?

Of course he has. Littlegreenfascists. Every day, like clockwork.

[Paul McEnery]

I would say that that is subject to a variety interpretation, on a number of levels.

Indeed. Could be Stalinism or the Tory Party.

[Tobias March]

A Boy and His Horse.

The Last Battle I was thinking of, but yes that featured some dubious descriptions of the ersatz Muslim faith Lewis created for the books.

[Kid Omega]

Indeed. Could be Stalinism or the Tory Party.

I was also referring to the use of the term "bashing".

I would say that a gentle scientist calmly explaining how she lost her faith hardly constitutes "bashing" anything, and that would be the closest scene to an actual affront upon religion in the books.

[Reverend Smooth]

A lot of folks have lost their faith because of church abuse. Maybe christians should get less angry with the messenger and moreso with the abusers in their own midst.

[Ninja Kris]

Indubitably!

Have you ever heard anyone say that teh Taliban was a-okay for banning dancing?

Islamic fundies get it just as hard as Christian fundies.

My point was that Briareos made it a political question. Which is wrong. Really more of a tolerance question.

Briareos implies a point. So far, no death threats against Pullman. That we know of. Just protests. If Briareos wrote this book, several Imams would declare a Jihad. Did have riots over cartoons last year. Pains me to say it, but the Christian fundies are relatively well-behaved over this. Even if they are wrong.

Fundies. Such interesting people.

[Kid Omega]

My point was that Briareos made it a political question. Which is wrong. Really more of a tolerance question.

Briareos implies a point. So far, no death threats against Pullman. That we know of. Just protests. If Briareos wrote this book, several Imams would declare a Jihad. Did have riots over cartoons last year. Pains me to say it, but the Christian fundies are relatively well-behaved over this. Even if they are wrong.


Let's hope that no high-level Islamic fundies ever decide to read AMBER SPYGLASS.

[Paul McEnery]

Let's hope that no high-level Islamic fundies ever decide to read AMBER SPYGLASS.

Hmm.

The message looks completely in line with Islam to me.

Given the injunction to forbear from speculation into the nature of God or anthropomorphize him in any way.

[Kid Omega]

Hmm.

The message looks completely in line with Islam to me.

Given the injunction to forbear from speculation into the nature of God or anthropomorphize him in any way.

That's the reasonable, majority Isalmic view.

We're talking fundies, who might see a decrepit god blowing away in the wind as a horrible insult. Ya know?

[Alex Scott]

Let's not forget the fact that the original poster is a Christian, and was originally written for Christians. In fact, I even posted a link on an Episcopalian message board.

How about this: Maybe we're more quick to criticize Chrsitian critics of HDM because they're actually in a position to be responded to relative to us? MMaybe because more of us have direct experience with Christianity, as opposed to Islam, where we're more likely to speak out of ignorance? Maybe it's because, with Christianity being such a major part of our culture, some people prefer to focus on the planks in our eyes before we worry about specks in everyone else's?

You know, like Jesus and Paul said we should do?

[Tobias March]

Someone's going to have to help me out on this. Are the church authorities who turn a blind eye to child abuse at the hands of clergy 'fundies' or just incompetent?

People who bomb abortion clinics? Parents who send their children to camps to cure their homosexuality? Indeed evangelicals from the States and African bishops threatening to break up the Anglican communion because there may be homosexuals in their midst....fundies?

I'm trying to draw the scale of evil in my mind here that we're discussing, if comparisons are to be made.

[Alex Scott]

Briareos implies a point. So far, no death threats against Pullman. That we know of. Just protests. If Briareos wrote this book, several Imams would declare a Jihad. Did have riots over cartoons last year. Pains me to say it, but the Christian fundies are relatively well-behaved over this. Even if they are wrong.

Fundies. Such interesting people.
You know, I hate to say it, but we don't know that. For all we know, Philip Pullman gets a ton of death threats every day. They aren't a uniquely Muslim phenomenon. I remember Kevin Smith getting some pretty vile things because of Dogma.

Also, Western Fundies are much closer to the wealthy and powerful. Why call a Jihad when you can use the media or the government to intimidate your enemies? There's stuff that happened in the Satanic Panic in the 80's that just sends chills down my spine.

Long story short, I think it's more a cultural thing than a religious one.

[Ninja Kris]

Someone's going to have to help me out on this. Are the church authorities who turn a blind eye to child abuse at the hands of clergy 'fundies' or just incompetent?

Neither fundamentalist nor incompetant. When bishops move around the offending child molesters to protect Church interests and not the victim, it's simply policy. When Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, before he became Pope, sends a letter saying all Church investigations into abuse claims are to be kept secret, not reported to the police before the church "investigates" them, it's nothing personal.

People who bomb abortion clinics? Parents who send their children to camps to cure their homosexuality? Indeed evangelicals from the States and African bishops threatening to break up the Anglican communion because there may be homosexuals in their midst....fundies?

All fundies.

[Alex Scott]

Someone's going to have to help me out on this. Are the church authorities who turn a blind eye to child abuse at the hands of clergy 'fundies' or just incompetent?Corrupt Catholics who are too attached to Church authority to worry about its flaws. Catholics don't usually tend to be fundamentalists--in fact, fundies often tend to be very anti-Catholic.

(now, there are fundies who commit child abuse, often systemic, but that's slightly different, because they lack the tightly-constructed hierarchy of Catholicism)

People who bomb abortion clinics? Parents who send their children to camps to cure their homosexuality?All fundies.

Indeed evangelicals from the States and African bishops threatening to break up the Anglican communion because there may be homosexuals in their midst....fundies?Jackasses, but jackasses with close ties to fundies in the IRD. Not so sure about the African bishops, though. I lean more towards corruption there, given their close ties to certain dictators.

[Cayman]

I think people of all creeds, religions, and philosophies should be able to get behind a world in which Eva Green can fly.

[Tobias March]

I think people of all creeds, religions, and philosophies should be able to get behind a world in which Eva Green can fly.

Finally a belief system I can support!

[Reverend Smooth]

Let's not forget the fact that the original poster is a Christian, and was originally written for Christians. In fact, I even posted a link on an Episcopalian message board.

How about this: Maybe we're more quick to criticize Chrsitian critics of HDM because they're actually in a position to be responded to relative to us? MMaybe because more of us have direct experience with Christianity, as opposed to Islam, where we're more likely to speak out of ignorance? Maybe it's because, with Christianity being such a major part of our culture, some people prefer to focus on the planks in our eyes before we worry about specks in everyone else's?

You know, like Jesus and Paul said we should do?Well, christianity is the majority religion in the US and responsible for discrimination and hostility against many american citizens. So, of course folks here are going to criticise them. (And much of the criticism is leveled by other christians, since most folks in the US, like over 90 percent, ARE christian.)

However, IIRC, folks thought the extremist (not the moderate) muslim response to those cartoons was stupid. So was the taliban blowing up those beautiful buddhist monuments in afghanistan. So was the extremist response to that teacher in sudan.

Just like enforcing the caste system is bullshit on the hindu side. Trying to turn it into a 'christians always get picked on, liberals are ok with it when others do it!' is false. It's ALL bullshit and I think folks here agree with it. However, we're mostly not living in muslim-influenced countries. We live in countries, and most of us live in one country, that's influenced by christian hypocrisy and bigotry.

And that's what the author of the books really has a problem with-- authoriatarianism used by religious institutions to fuck over the people. He uses the catholic church as the model because a) it has a terrible history in regards to that, b) it's STILL doing some shitty things in the name of God, and c) because, I assume, that was the biggest negative religious influence that he dealt with directly.

I'm sure that if he grew up in afghanistan, the church he'd be tearing down would be a different one, but for pretty much the same reasons.

[Paul McEnery]

You know, I hate to say it, but we don't know that. For all we know, Philip Pullman gets a ton of death threats every day.

Well, he probably does now. The fundies don't cotton much to reading.

Though of course Stewart Lee got them, and the fundies tried to shut him down and shut him up, and would have tried to shut him sideways too if they were capable of lateral thinking.

[Paul McEnery]

Finally a belief system I can support!

Not acceptable at all.

I want Eva Green to hover.

[Paul McEnery]

That's the reasonable, majority Isalmic view.

We're talking fundies, who might see a decrepit god blowing away in the wind as a horrible insult. Ya know?

Easy one.

"See, they've blown away the false god of the infidel."
"Oh right. Good show."

[Reverend Smooth]

Well, he probably does now. The fundies don't cotton much to reading.
That would be why they don't grasp Scripture, either.

[mistervader]

I'm taking the OP and crediting you, and putting it in my blog. :P

[Briareos]

'achem' - Chronicles of Narnia.....I mean come on sir.

Uh Narnia is a Christian allegory but it isn't "anti" any other religion?

[Briareos]

Someone's going to have to help me out on this. Are the church authorities who turn a blind eye to child abuse at the hands of clergy 'fundies' or just incompetent?

People who bomb abortion clinics? Parents who send their children to camps to cure their homosexuality? Indeed evangelicals from the States and African bishops threatening to break up the Anglican communion because there may be homosexuals in their midst....fundies?

I'm trying to draw the scale of evil in my mind here that we're discussing, if comparisons are to be made.

Whoa whoa whoa your not getting away with that. There have been a handful of physical attacks on abortion clincs performed by what a couple dozen out of hundreds of millions of christians. There are whole countries that are filled with Muslims that are aching to strap bombs to themselves to kill as many jews as possible. Don't you dare give me that moral equivalence bullshit. Muslims have a problem with violent extremism that no other religion Christian Jewish or Hindu ect have.

And as far as parents sending their kids to camps so they won't be homosexual. Your saying that parents are wrong for wanting to council their kids on going away from behavior that will have a coin flip chance of them dying a horrible painful death at a early age?

If I were to take a revolver and played russian roulette with it half full of bullets would people who suggest I not do that as it is very unsafe be biggots too?

Seriously Homosexuality is the only behavior that no matter what the consequences of are is defended to the point of insanity. I remember at college we had to take a health and lifestyle choices and they had a small group of aids activists come in to talk to us. They were gay and one of them was talking about how they took care of him and how grateful he was to them and how the guy at the table who was one of the heads of the group was really great and he had aids. So if dying a horrible death at a early age is a success I REALLY do not want to know what failure is.

[Josh S]

And as far as parents sending their kids to camps so they won't be homosexual. Your saying that parents are wrong for wanting to council their kids on going away from behavior that will have a coin flip chance of them dying a horrible painful death at a early age?

If I were to take a revolver and played russian roulette with it half full of bullets would people who suggest I not do that as it is very unsafe be biggots too?

I love that you equated being gay with playing Russian roulette.


Just kidding. It made me and Jesus cry.

[Briareos]

I just wanted a example that had a 50% absolute death rate that is directly attributable to the behavior.

[Josh S]

I just wanted a example that had a 50% absolute death rate that is directly attributable to the behavior.

Yeah, I know what you were going for and why. That's what's so crazy.

[king mob]

I just wanted a example that had a 50% absolute death rate that is directly attributable to the behavior.

Big hairy bollocks.

[Cam63]

Jeez, Bri... are you ever wrong on this one.

[thehod]

I just wanted a example that had a 50% absolute death rate that is directly attributable to the behavior.

50% of pigs like their bacon sarnies to have brown sauce on them.


See, I can pull inacurate and blantenly stupid facts outta my butthole too.
Everyone join in. Fun for all the family.

[Cam63]

50% of surgeons recommend partying heavily with as much cocaine and/or alcohol you can take up until one hour before prep'.

*Lift's Bree's head up off the bar*

...AINT THAT RIGHT, DOC' !?

[KevinTBrown]

50% of Aussies hate Fosters. While the other 50% despise it.

[Alan Lynch]

I just wanted a example that had a 50% absolute death rate that is directly attributable to the behavior.
Is this a Colbert-esque spoof?

50% of all fish are in fact allergic to vinegar. Except haddock and cod.

[Bo Bo]

100% of people with a fat super geek avater have no idea why people are making up statistics and are too lazy to read the rest of the thread to find out why. This statistic is accurate +/-100% 9 times out of 10

[Cayman]

Is this a Colbert-esque spoof?

50% of all fish are in fact allergic to vinegar. Except haddock and cod.

I always carry a bottle in cash of a fish ambush. The Orange Roughy lives up to its name, especially late at night in some dark alley.

[Alan Lynch]

I always carry a bottle in cash of a fish ambush. The Orange Roughy lives up to its name, especially late at night in some dark alley.
Those Red Mullets are vicious little bastards as well.

[Cayman]

Those Red Mullets are vicious little bastards as well.

It's the KGB training.

[Paul McEnery]

So if dying a horrible death at a early age is a success I REALLY do not want to know what failure is.

Just look in the mirror you vile little man.

[Tobias March]

Just look in the mirror you vile little man.

Remember when I talked about stupidity earlier? This is exactly what I was referring to.

[KevinTBrown]

Just look in the mirror you vile little man.

Uncalled for, Paul.....

[CutterMike]

(...)But really, what does "agenda writing" even mean? Was Gene Wolfe "agenda writing" with the Book of the New Sun just because it heavily delves into catholic imagery and themes, and promotes a Christ-allegory?(...)

I think Robert Heinlein said it best (and I don't have the reference here, so I'm only going to be paraphrasing):

It's possible, even likely, that a writer has a reason to write - beyond the need to eat, keep the rain off, etc. - it may be to explain a discovery , or present a philosophy, or espouse a belief. Always remember, however, that your work is competing for Joe's beer money - and Joe LIKES his beer. If your primary purpose isn't to entertain, pretty soon you're going to find yourself back toting that cotton sack or doing something else that approaches real work.

In short - if it's entertaining, first and foremost, fine. If it's polemic, first and foremost, not so much.

[CutterMike]

I didn't say it was "inherently" anything. Obviously, the quality of a story rests with each writer. However, it just so happens that fantasy aimed at younger audiences tends to be more formulaic and less interesting--and therefore, less valid in my eyes--than other genres. It's only a viewpoint, and I think a more legitimate one than disliking a story because of its author's personal beliefs.

Let me see if I have this straight: Stories that present the classic themes to a group of readers that aren't as familiar with those themes as you are tend to be formulaic and less interesting to you.

Well, DUH!!!

Maybe you're NOT THE TARGET AUDIENCE!

This does not make them inferior. It makes them inappropriate for you. Disliking them on that basis is, in fact, EXACTLY as legitimate as disliking a story because of its author's beliefs.

Presenting tales of overarching moral ambiguities to an audience that is still assimilating the concepts of good and evil/right and wrong is doing a disservice to both the story and the audience.

[Paul McEnery]

Uncalled for, Paul.....

You've got to be kidding me. Briareos lets rip with vile bigotry, but my remark is uncalled for.

Really?

[Paul McEnery]

This does not make them inferior. .

Of course it does. That's exactly why we prize an Alan Moore, Neil Gaiman or Grant Morrison over formula hacks. Derivative works are lesser works.

[Cam63]

Kevin wants the name calling to stop and hey, Bri has to live with himself.

[Paul McEnery]

Kevin wants the name calling to stop and hey, Bri has to live with himself.

Unfortunately, we have to live with his bigotry. Under the circumstances, I think I was rather restrained.

[CutterMike]

Those Red Mullets are vicious little bastards as well.

Is it the bad '90s hairdos that bother you, or are you, in fact, a Gingerphobe!??!

[sk716]

Whoa whoa whoa your not getting away with that. There have been a handful of physical attacks on abortion clincs performed by what a couple dozen out of hundreds of millions of christians. There are whole countries that are filled with Muslims that are aching to strap bombs to themselves to kill as many jews as possible. Don't you dare give me that moral equivalence bullshit. Muslims have a problem with violent extremism that no other religion Christian Jewish or Hindu ect have.

And as far as parents sending their kids to camps so they won't be homosexual. Your saying that parents are wrong for wanting to council their kids on going away from behavior that will have a coin flip chance of them dying a horrible painful death at a early age?

If I were to take a revolver and played russian roulette with it half full of bullets would people who suggest I not do that as it is very unsafe be biggots too?

Seriously Homosexuality is the only behavior that no matter what the consequences of are is defended to the point of insanity. I remember at college we had to take a health and lifestyle choices and they had a small group of aids activists come in to talk to us. They were gay and one of them was talking about how they took care of him and how grateful he was to them and how the guy at the table who was one of the heads of the group was really great and he had aids. So if dying a horrible death at a early age is a success I REALLY do not want to know what failure is.

I just wanted a example that had a 50% absolute death rate that is directly attributable to the behavior.

You know what, that's really quite enough out of you. Get real facts or stay out of the discussion.

Just look in the mirror you vile little man.

I'm not even going to get on to Paul for this. That's way more civil and polite than what went through my mind.

[Paul McEnery]

You know what, that's really quite enough out of you. Get real facts or stay out of the discussion.



I'm not even going to get on to Paul for this. That's way more civil and polite than what went through my mind.

Thanks, m'dear.

Though Kevin: I appreciate your point of view on this, too. Civility is to be treasured.

[Sally Sensational]

Hi there! Original poster here! Can we get back to discussing the topic? Or at least literature in general or, for that matter, ANY of the topics introduced by the intent and content of the original post?

'Cause I'm really not up to the direction this is headed in right now. Really.

In other words, stick to religion and politics. Leave everybody's health out of it!:p

[Cayman]

I started reading the third book on Sunday night. I'm not sure I'll be able to spend a lot of time with it for awhile as I have a lengthy library book to finish, but the first few chapters were promising. Best gay angels since Elizabeth Knox's novel "The Vintner's Luck".

[Reverend Smooth]

Uncalled for, Paul.....
You'd better call out Briareos on the shit he spewed. Paul was justified, sorry.

[Sabrinaset]

50% of surgeons recommend partying heavily with as much cocaine and/or alcohol you can take up until one hour before prep'.

*Lift's Bree's head up off the bar*

...AINT THAT RIGHT, DOC' !?

Last night I spent three hoursh operatin' on what looked like someonesh intestines until I wash told I was cutting up a tye-dyed shirt! *head hits bar again* THUNK!

[CutterMike]

Of course it does. That's exactly why we prize an Alan Moore, Neil Gaiman or Grant Morrison over formula hacks. Derivative works are lesser works.

I don't know. I tend to think that "suitability for purpose" has to enter into the equation, somewhere. I would no more necessarily use "Promethea" to introduce a tween reader to comics than I would use Moorcock's "Corum" books to introduce one to fantasy (as much as I enjoy both authors' work).

It is possible for a "derivative" creator to, nonetheless, bring something new to the table (and, really, in the final analysis, is there *ANY* creator who is not "derivative" in one way or another?). Using an an example that I used in another thread, jack Kirby admitted to being influenced by the drawing of Milt Caniff. Steranko was clearly derivative of Kirby, and Paul Gulacy of Steranko. Yet each took their original sources and extended them in new ways.

So, if you're saying that the majority of fantasy/SF/comics/movies/any-artform-you-can-think-of is not extending its medium and is formulaic, then I will agree wholeheartedly.

If you are saying that only something that extends the medium is genuinely Art, I would probably agree with you there, too.

If you're saying that, when trying to introduce a new genre (comics/fantasy/etc.) to an audience, that Art *MUST* trump accessibility and suitability for purpose and audience, then I would probably have to disagree with you.

There are times when such familiar tropes as "Youth Overcomes Obstacles", "Good Conquers Evil", etc., are in fact, necessary lead-ins to the deeper concepts to be discovered later.

[Paul McEnery]

Hi there! Original poster here! Can we get back to discussing the topic? Or at least literature in general or, for that matter, ANY of the topics introduced by the intent and content of the original post?

'Cause I'm really not up to the direction this is headed in right now. Really.

In other words, stick to religion and politics. Leave everybody's health out of it!:p

Sally --

Since you ask, :evilsmile, I'm not so taken by your tack. I think talking to the Cult of Christianism in their own terms only reinforces the psychological disorder, because that way of thinking is, in itself, the problem; i.e. the content of cultish thinking is irrelevant; socialist workers, straight-edgers, christianists, they're all the same, addicted to a rigid ruleset that defines the cult, and severe punishment for anyone who steps outside.

Now maybe you'll get across to a few people like this, but I rather think you won't.