Flawed and Flawless characters in Marvel

[SquidSquod]

Do you think flawless character are becoming the way of the dodo with the death of Captain America, and that's how it should be? Let us look at a few of the Marvel characters

Spider-Man, flaw: emo, perpetual loser
Iron Man, flaw: immoral, egotistical
Mr. Fantastic, flaw: stiff, unemotional
Hawkeye: directionless life
Namor, flaw: pompous @ss
Ms. Marvel, flaw: crybaby, insensitive
Luke Cage, flaw: conflicted, not that smart
Silver Surfer, flaw: conflicted, slave
Daredevil, flaw: sufferer
Wolverine, flaw: Big L
Hulk, flaw: Hulk

against

Captain America, flaw: ? <-- dead
Thor, flaw: ?
Black Panther, flaw: ?

What do you think?

[overcomebyfumes]

Captain America's flaw has been that he's a man out of time, born in the late twenties, frozen at the end of WWII, and re-vived about (what with the sliding time scale) thirteen years ago. He represents an ideal of America which hasn't actually existed for decades. All the people he knew, all his friends, are dead.

Thor's flaw has always been that he is a god who is in love with the mortal world. Rather than be content to just be a god and be above everything, he has to come down here and meddle in our business. All of the really good Thor stories over the years are generally about the conflict between Thor's responsibility as a god and his responsibilities as a human.

Black Panther... I'm sure some others who are more knowledgeable about him can help out here. Selfishness might have something to do with it. He did cure cancer, after all, but refuses to share it with anyone who's not a Wakandan citizen.



My takes on some of these:


Spider-Man, flaw: emo, perpetual loser

An over-developed sense of responsibility.


Iron Man, flaw: immoral, egotistical

I'm not sure about immoral, per se. An addictive personality, sure. Eotistical I'd agree with. But I think his main flaw now is his ability to envision a utopian future, but not being able to think through the consequences of the means it takes to get there.


Namor, flaw: pompous @ss

You'd be pompous too if you were Namor.


Silver Surfer, flaw: conflicted, slave

He made a bargan with the devil (in this case, Galactus) and then didn't have the stomache to hold up his end of it. Before Annihilation, I had a friend who'd refer to him as "The Silver Space Mope". His cosmic perspective and need to consider every possible consequence often causes him to not act when action is necessary.


Daredevil, flaw: sufferer

Daredevil's flaws are perhaps too numerous to count. Blindness is a big flaw, for one, don't forget. He tends to think with his penis, and his woman troubles cause him no end of anguish. His belief that the legal system works in all cases causes him some complicated moral quandries that other super-heroes might not blink twice about.


Wolverine, flaw: Big L

Overexposure.


pax.

[Tobias Drake]

Black Panther's flaw is that he has no flaws?

[Babylon23]

This isn't a new thing. Infact, it's pretty much what the Marvel Age of the 60's was based on. Spidey was the nerdy teenage loser, Iron Man had a heart condition, Thor was a crippled doctor, Daredevil was blind, the X-Men were outcasts, etc.

[overcomebyfumes]

Black Panther's flaw is that he has no flaws?


I was going to say that the Black Panther's flaw is Hudlin, but then I figured I'd get in trouble for it.




Luke Cage, flaw: conflicted, not that smart


I don't think Luke Cage has ever been portrayed as being out and out dumb or stupid. I really couldn't tell you what Luke's flaw is.

If you want a stupid super-hero, I think Johnny Blaze wins that one hands down. Dude made a pact with Satan, fer chrissakes.



pax.

[Tobias Drake]

Penance, flaw: going so far overboard he's on another ship entirely.

[Mississippienne]

Black Panther is arrogant.

Daredevil is wildly emotionally and mentally unstable.

Hank Pym is an abusive headcase.

Tony Stark is an interesting case because, in a lot of ways, he's a very atypical superhero. Most superheroes are of the Spider-man variety: luckless teenager stumbles onto superpowers, saves the day and gets the girl. This goes back at least to Fawcett Comics' Shazam Captain Marvel. Wish fulfilment teenager fantasy. But Tony was an adult man who was already powerful before he ever donned an armored suit and became a superhero. He's wealthy, he's respected, he gets plenty of girls, he runs his own company. He's also not 'super' in the way Peter Parker or even Steve Rogers is, since he can take off his armor at will (until the recent Extremis reboot). So for Tony, becoming a superhero is a very conscious choice, and I've always gotten the impression that he needs the Iron Man gig way more than the world needs an Iron Man.

[Fatguy]

Captain America, flaw: ? <-- dead
Thor, flaw: ?
Black Panther, flaw: ?



My humble opinion on the above:

Captain America: Overcome covered this one pretty well, I agree with what he said.

Thor: He definitely has flaws, one of his biggest is that he's a wildly passionate individual, and that sometimes will supercede his ability to logic. He often uses his heart instead of his brain, which isnt ALWAYS a flaw, but it certainly can have its disadvantages.

Black Panther: Panther is cold, and slightly arrogant. Plus he can be the anti-Thor, putting logic before feeling.

[Arti]

what about doctor strange?

[Arti]

what about doctor strange?

[SquidSquod]

As for Captain America's flaw of being a man out of time, I don't accept that as a flaw. Saying that Cap is a man out of time is the same thing of Iron Man's weak heart flaw, for the flaw doesn't come from the character of Steve Rogers himself and it's rather played out. Steve doesn't ask to be out of time, and he doesn't act like being out of time.

On the other hand, I accept if Captain America's flaw is being naive, seeing the world only in black & white. It's shown in the modern comics before he got murdered.

I'm ok for BP flaws. He's arrogant over-defensive person but writers haven't used this arrogant depiction a lot. Even an arrogant BP seems to have more friends than Pym.

Now JMS Thor, I haven't seen his flaws yet. He's still uber-Jesus in chainmail.

[hugekent]

Great thread.

I don't think there is such a thing as flawless. Even if someone is the absolutely ideal person in your opinion, there will still be someone who will dislike something about them.

[overcomebyfumes]

what about doctor strange?

Believe it or not, shakey hands.


Practically, Dr. Strange's flaw is that he's a walking deus ex machina.


As for Captain America's flaw of being a man out of time, I don't accept that as a flaw. Saying that Cap is a man out of time is the same thing of Iron Man's weak heart flaw, for the flaw doesn't come from the character of Steve Rogers himself and it's rather played out.

When Stan was writing the orgins of these characters, I don't think he gave a lot of thought to if their flaws derived from their characters or not. Iron Man's weak heart (which could be seen as a metaphor for his shakey morals), Caps "out-of-time-ness", Daredevil's blindness, the Thing's uglyness, Thor being magically bound to a lame doctor, Dr. Strange's hands - these were all things that were foisted on the characters and didn't come from within. But they still made the characters interesting.

And sure, the flaws aren't going to come up in every story involving that character, and some character's more than others. And some characters have "better" flaws than others. Steve is more able to ignore "out-of-time-ness" than Daredevil his flaws, and Tony had heart surgery years ago. So the flaws come and go, and develop with the character.

pax.

[Arilou]

Dr. Strange was, and still is, a very arrogant man. He was very much humbled when he lost his hands, and mostly learned his lessons, but he still has a tendency to be snarky, dismissive of others, and consider himself to know best.

Partially of course, becuase he really DOES see farther and know more than most.

In some ways he is also like Reed in that he gets involved in his "work".


Spider-Man, flaw: emo, perpetual loser¨

Spidey's big flaw is that he takes responsibility even when he is blameless, that to some degree ties into a sense that he is overprotective (I think his portrayal in Spider-Girl is pretty spot-on) he also has a tendency to keep things within himself, to not think things through, and forget that he has friends.


Iron Man, flaw: immoral, egotistical

Egotistical I'd agree, but I don't think Tony Stark is *immoral* he has a very clear moral code. I think his flaws is basically the fact that two parts of his personality, the forward-thinking scientist and the emotional hero, are at odds with each other. He's "rational" enough to visualize an end and try to reach it, even if it means doing things many would consider to be immoral, but he's still vulnerable enough that he feels it. (In some ways he reminds me of Rand al'Thor) he has a tendency to micromanage his underlings and, ironically, just like Spidey a tendency to try to solve things on his own rather than leave it up to people who might, perhaps, be better suited to it.

Tony is also, I think, at heart an optimist: He believes the world can be made better through the efforts of human beings. That can be problematic.


Captain America, flaw: ? <-- dead

I'd argue that Captain America's flaw (which can also be his source of strength at times) is that he is quite... rigid, in his moral beliefs. Right is Right and Wrong is Wrong. Doesen't mean he's not compassionate or forgiving or any of those things but I always get the idea that he has a (very large, very complicated) list in his head of EXACTLY what is acceptable under EXACTLY what circumstances.


Black Panther, flaw: ?

Black Panther is arrogant, proud and kind of pricklish. He seems to be quick to anger and distrustful of others.

[ivesaidway2much]

Hulk, flaw: HulkLOL, I love the Hulk's flaw.

[sinjection]

The Black Panther's faults are few.

1) Obsessive at times of living up to the reign of T'Chaka. T'Challa tries to walk the path as his father did, but seems worried that he isn't able to fill his father's footsteps.

2) The Panther is a man of extraordinary focus. This works as both an advantage and as a disadvantage. The disadvantage manifests as what appears to be a neglect of things emotional.

Young T'Challa was focused on becoming King of Wakanda and avenging his father's death. This narrowing of focus caused T'Challa to lose sight of the love that was developing between himself and the young Ororo, resulting in the dissolution of that relationship.

T'Challa's narrowing of focus on matters of prime importance caused him to lose emotional contact with Monica Lynne resulting in the dissolution of that relationship.

Another flaw the Black Panther used to have has seemingly been addressed and corrected by the character's current writer. T'Challa isn't quick to anger. In fact, he has been the exact opposite. That's good in a way because anger clouds better judgement. However, when the Panther has been portrayed in battle, he is often conflicted and sometimes hesitant, allowing his opponent to gain the upperhand. For example, T'Challa once ignored what he knew was an obvious trap set for him by M'Baku, the Man-Ape. Instead of pressing his advantage, T'Challa chose instead to try to help M'Baku out of a feigned deadly predicament. In doing so, M'Baku struck in treachery, rendered T'Challa unconscious and when the Black Panther awoke, he found himself securely bound to an altar at the base of his own Panther Idol about to be crushed under it by the Man-Ape who was trying his level best to topple the Idol onto the Black Panther.

Hudlin's Panther is confident, cool and seemingly always two steps ahead of his opponent. I don't see the current Panther falling for such obvious tricks during a battle.

____sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X

[bjtrdff]

Well now there's a shocking post.


I'm going to say that, oh I don't know, Andreas Strucker's faults are few too.

[Tobias Drake]

Strange's flaw is that he's a Skrull. :p

Okay, seriously this time, Strange's flaw is that he's overpowered yet ill-defined. He is at the same time a hard and an easy character to use; it is easy to have him magic the conflict away, but that makes it hard to write him without him doing so.

[Shellhead]

I enjoyed Marvel comics more when the heroes were physically handicapped, but heroic enough to overcome it.

Thing: monstrous-looking
Hulk: monstrous-looking
Daredevil: blind
Professor X: crippled
Iron Man: shrapnel in heart
Thor: other identity had a bad leg
Beast: monstrous-looking
Angel: obviously abnormal
Doctor Strange: bad hands
etc.

Today, Marvel heroes seem to be more emotionally stunted or mentally handicapped, and not particularly heroic. That may be interesting, but doesn't leave much room for the characterization of the actual villains.

[sinjection]

Well now there's a shocking post.

Yes.

Given the type of flak the Black Panther often receives, I can see how it might come as a shock to some who believed the hype when it is revealed that the flaws he does have as a character are in fact, very few.

The Panther can be written in a flawed manner. His creator - Jack "King" Kirby - may have been the worst offender in this case, unfortunately.

____sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X

[Mitteloss]

Some of my favourite X-Men:

Polaris: Weak willed, was mentally un-stable

Havok: Insecure, too modest, looks down on himself

Emma Frost: I love Emma and her flaws.

She's fake. The persona she puts on is a defense mechanism. She's beautiful, but she had plastic surgery. She's intelligent, but she overestimates herself and underestimates others. She's dependable, but can barely keep any of her students alive. She's skilled and powerful, but someone will always be there to better her. She's cold and calculating, but psychologically hit her where it hurts and she's an emotional mess. She's confident, but with it she can be rude, manipulative and shallow.

She's a fascinating character.

Oh, and sinjection, Polaris isn't a WASP. It is assumed she was raised Catholic and she's ethnically half-Jewish.

[Monty_Cristo]

way of the dodo? isn't this the era of the flawed hero? does Eric O'Grady need to rape some girl on the pope's grave to qualify.

[Magneto X]

Most Marvel heroes have flaws. But there are these exceptions:


As for Captain America's flaw of being a man out of time, I don't accept that as a flaw.

I don't accept it as a flaw either. He is the most respected leader in all of Marvel-dom. If he's stuck in the past, Marvel is essentially saying that is of great benefit to him as it guides him better than modern confusion guides the rest. Cap is flawless, except for the dead thing.


Black Panther's arrogant

It's not arrogance if you really did it. BP is flawless.


Thor, I haven't seen his flaws yet.

I haven't seen Thor's flaws. He's not the most intelligent guy around, but then again, he doesn't need to be. I don't buy that him caring about mortals is a flaw. That would be like calling someone a flaw for hiding Jews in Nazi Germany. Mortals should be cared about. He's written bascially flawless as far as I can tell.

So far my avatar is flawless BTW.

Does Ms. Marvel have flaws?

[Jackob]

Most Marvel heroes have flaws. But there are these exceptions:



I don't accept it as a flaw either. He is the most respected leader in all of Marvel-dom. If he's stuck in the past, Marvel is essentially saying that is of great benefit to him as it guides him better than modern confusion guides the rest. Cap is flawless, except for the dead thing.



It's not arrogance if you really did it. BP is flawless.



I haven't seen Thor's flaws. He's not the most intelligent guy around, but then again, he doesn't need to be. I don't buy that him caring about mortals is a flaw. That would be like calling someone a flaw for hiding Jews in Nazi Germany. Mortals should be cared about. He's written bascially flawless as far as I can tell.

So far my avatar is flawless BTW.

Does Ms. Marvel have flaws?

nez`s flaw is that if he use to much power he explodes

[Fatguy]

Does Ms. Marvel have flaws?

She's often portrayed as being unsure and somewhat indecisive.

[The Master Meglomaniac]

Yes.

Given the type of flak the Black Panther often receives, I can see how it might come as a shock to some who believed the hype when it is revealed that the flaws he does have as a character are in fact, very few.

The Panther can be written in a flawed manner. His creator - Jack "King" Kirby - may have been the worst offender in this case, unfortunately.

____sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X

Some flaws make a character more interesting, more human. A perfect character is a boring character, how there be conflict or drama if a character is perfect? How would the villains pose a threat to this perfect character?

[Magneto X]

Some flaws make a character more interesting, more human. A perfect character is a boring character, how there be conflict or drama if a character is perfect? How would the villains pose a threat to this perfect character?

Captain America and Superman could have had a contest of perfect character. I see neither winning, but both exploding in red white & blue due to the effort.

[Tobias Drake]

Captain America and Superman could have had a contest of perfect character. I see neither winning, but both exploding in red white & blue due to the effort.

Captain America wins because Superman is an alien, and illegal aliens are a very controversial subject in America. :p

[sinjection]

Some flaws make a character more interesting, more human. A perfect character is a boring character, how there be conflict or drama if a character is perfect? How would the villains pose a threat to this perfect character?

And who is this "perfect character" of which you speak, Meglo?

____sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X

[Tobias Drake]

And who is this "perfect character" of which you speak, Meglo?

____sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X

Doom, obviously. Can there be any other? :p

[DaeJi]

Doom, obviously. Can there be any other? :p

If Doom had but one flaw, it would that he can't teach us all to be the shining pinnacle of perfection that he is.

[sinjection]

Doom, obviously. Can there be any other? :p

----Lesseeeee....Namor? Doom and Namor were allies on at least two occasions. Both times, the alliance ended badly. They couldn't seem to stand one another. Maybe that was because they were both so perfectly alike.

____sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X

[DaeJi]

----Lesseeeee....Namor? Doom and Namor were allies on at least two occasions. Both times, the alliance ended badly. They couldn't seem to stand one another. Maybe that was because they were both so perfectly alike.

____sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X

Obviously Namor's fault. No, wait, it's that cursed Richard's fault!!

[RolandJP]

Wolverine--Both Flawed and Flawless

[Tobias Drake]

Reed Richards' flaw is that he is constantly trying and failing to grow out of the shadow of Doom's perfection.

[TotalWorldDomination]

Captain America's flaw has been that he's a man out of time, born in the late twenties, frozen at the end of WWII, and re-vived about (what with the sliding time scale) thirteen years ago. He represents an ideal of America which hasn't actually existed for decades. All the people he knew, all his friends, are dead.

I don't buy these as a flaw at all, and I'd say most Marvel fans and writers wouldn't either.

Caps' 40's ethics and morals are presented as his greatest strength, not his flaws. It would be MUCH more interesting if he had more of the negative feelings of the times (racism, sexism, violence, homophobia, morally judgmentalism, ethnic prejudice, ect, ect), but he's consistently written as damn near perfect- in essence he's the best of the 40's with none of the flaws.

The other aspects of the "Man out of Time" story have been either mitigated by all of his time in the present or simply ignored. He's adept at modern, even cutting edge tech, he's seemingly comfortable with modern culture, he's got hordes of friends (So much for the all his friends are dead thing) and he's a leader among men who seems more comfortable with his place in America then the majority of people from THIS time.

Cap is considered the "Moral Center" of the MU by most fans. If he did it, it would automatically be right. He's not only flawless, he's a half-step below divine.


Yes.

Given the type of flak the Black Panther often receives, I can see how it might come as a shock to some who believed the hype when it is revealed that the flaws he does have as a character are in fact, very few.

The Panther can be written in a flawed manner. His creator - Jack "King" Kirby - may have been the worst offender in this case, unfortunately.

____sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X

But Marvel is all about flawed characters. I want to see more of the arrogant nasty spying selfish T'Challa. The T'Challa who could care less if people lived or died if they're not Wakandans. That's what made the character interesting to me. Hudlin has made him (ironically) too vanilla. He's become too good. He might as well hang out with the JSA. That and Hudlin could'nt write his way out of a paper bag :p:D


If Doom had but one flaw, it would that he can't teach us all to be the shining pinnacle of perfection that he is.

Reed Richards' flaw is that he is constantly trying and failing to grow out of the shadow of Doom's perfection.

Reed's Flaw is his inablity to recognize that that Doom is a shining pinnacle of perfection. Incidentally this is also a flaw shared by every other character in marvel, except for doom. and perhaps the people of Latvaria.

[Van Custo]

Do you think flawless character are becoming the way of the dodo with the death of Captain America, and that's how it should be? Let us look at a few of the Marvel characters

Spider-Man, flaw: emo, perpetual loser
Iron Man, flaw: immoral, egotistical
Mr. Fantastic, flaw: stiff, unemotional
Hawkeye: directionless life
Namor, flaw: pompous @ss
Ms. Marvel, flaw: crybaby, insensitive
Luke Cage, flaw: conflicted, not that smart
Silver Surfer, flaw: conflicted, slave
Daredevil, flaw: sufferer
Wolverine, flaw: Big L
Hulk, flaw: Hulk

against

Captain America, flaw: ? <-- dead
Thor, flaw: ?
Black Panther, flaw: ?

What do you think?


Wolverine's flaw is a dead rapper from the 90's?

:confused:

[Bulky Brent]

Do you think flawless character are becoming the way of the dodo with the death of Captain America, and that's how it should be? Let us look at a few of the Marvel characters

Ms. Marvel, flaw: crybaby, insensitive
What do you think?
about Ms Marvel I wouldn't really call her a cry baby but insensitive a perhaps a little.

[foxley]

Does Ms. Marvel have flaws?

She is a recovering alcoholic which indicates an addictive personality.

[Alan2099]

Wolverine, flaw: Big L
He's a lesbian!?! This time Claremont has gone too far!

[Omega Alpha]

As for Captain America's flaw of being a man out of time, I don't accept that as a flaw. Saying that Cap is a man out of time is the same thing of Iron Man's weak heart flaw, for the flaw doesn't come from the character of Steve Rogers himself and it's rather played out. Steve doesn't ask to be out of time, and he doesn't act like being out of time.

Exactly.

Cap. America is the most honorable of all men (according to freakin' Magneto), the best leader and tacticican that ever lived, everyone's best friend, has an imposing figure that makes even Gods follow him without hesistation, is the living symbol of what the USA and every hero should be, etc.


I don't buy these as a flaw at all, and I'd say most Marvel fans and writers wouldn't either.

Caps' 40's ethics and morals are presented as his greatest strength, not his flaws. It would be MUCH more interesting if he had more of the negative feelings of the times (racism, sexism, violence, homophobia, morally judgmentalism, ethnic prejudice, ect, ect), but he's consistently written as damn near perfect- in essence he's the best of the 40's with none of the flaws.

Ult. Cap. America shows a lot of those flaws, that's why he's much more interesting than the 616 version.

[ivesaidway2much]

Wolverine's flaw is a dead rapper from the 90's?

:confused:The Big L is dead?!?:eek: Jeez, I never knew that.

[earl]

Captain America being a man out of time seemed to be more of a theme in early Avengers and solo stories. The thing that you could say is that Steve Rogers the man was concerned with being lost within the icon of being Captain America.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Cap is also stubborn, naive, and hot-headed.

He is an overdog, but even they have flaws.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

And he has no personal life whatsoever.

So no, he isn't flawless. It's all been shown in Gruenwalds run, at least.

Just because you don't like him, doesn't mean the generalizations work.

[Alan2099]

Cap has nobody he can really connect to. The only two that come close are Nick Fury and Wolverine, mainly due to their backgrounds. Outside of the hero biz, Cap has no life.

Also, he tends to put himself on a pedistal and be a bit of a hypocrit when dealing with other heroes. While it's not a fact they realy hilight much, Captain America has always been more brutal and open to killing by himself and when he leads any other group of heroes, he's the first one to stand up and say that killing is wrong and it shouldn't be done ever.

[SquidSquod]

And he has no personal life whatsoever.

So no, he isn't flawless. It's all been shown in Gruenwalds run, at least.

Just because you don't like him, doesn't mean the generalizations work.

Personal life is not a flaw. Many other heroes don't have personal life, or so it seems.

I like him, but I like him better when he's flawed like everybody else.

[SquidSquod]

Cap has nobody he can really connect to. The only two that come close are Nick Fury and Wolverine, mainly due to their backgrounds. Outside of the hero biz, Cap has no life.



But for having no life, that's his choice. It's not inherent of his character. Captain America has a lot of friends and he make friends in a snap of fingers. He's not a lab geek like Reed, consummate businessman like Tony or having time-consuming job like Peter Parker. So where's the rest of his time gone? Watching sitcoms? Writing novels? Playing computer games? IMO that's life. No way Cap has no life. It's just not being written as detailed as Spider-Man, but the gist of the matter - having no life is not a flaw. Having no life is the ceteris paribus of all superhero. It's something taken to be equal.

[Arilou]

As for Ms. Marvel: I'd say her flaw is a certain ambitiousness: She holds herself to very high standards and then mopes when she doesen't live up to them.

[Castiglione]

The Panther can be written in a flawed manner. His creator - Jack "King" Kirby - may have been the worst offender in this case, unfortunately.


Is it me or does this not make sense atall?

As his creator doesn't Kirby have the final word on how the Black Panther acts/reacts?

[SquidSquod]

Yes.

Given the type of flak the Black Panther often receives, I can see how it might come as a shock to some who believed the hype when it is revealed that the flaws he does have as a character are in fact, very few.

The Panther can be written in a flawed manner. His creator - Jack "King" Kirby - may have been the worst offender in this case, unfortunately.

____sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X

Actually the purpose of this post is to question why some characters seemingly are not going with the Marvel maxim, where every character must have flaws. Ergo: flawed is the norm, flawless is abnormal.

Of all the three I question of being "unblemished", the current worst offender is JMS Thor but that's perhaps because of his slow story development. We'll see in about 6 months. Again, pushing D Blake as Thor's flaw doesn't cut it. D Blake is not Thor and he can change form anytime he wants it.

[Castiglione]

Actually the purpose of this post is to question why some characters seemingly are not going with the Marvel maxim, where every character must have flaws. Ergo: flawed is the norm, flawless is abnormal.

Of all the three I question of being "unblemished", the current worst offender is JMS Thor but that's perhaps because of his slow story development. We'll see in about 6 months.

I don't read many or enough of Marvels titles to realise what the Marvel Maxim is. Or maybe I just don't care enough? Who knows.

Living in New Zealand I have to wait a LONG time for comics, even when I order them direct, but I'm quite liking the slow pace of Thor. And now that he isn't "holding back" his godly power, I seriously hope he gives everyone that has slighted him or the people he cares about a thrashing.

[SquidSquod]

I don't read many or enough of Marvels titles to realise what the Marvel Maxim is. Or maybe I just don't care enough? Who knows.

Living in New Zealand I have to wait a LONG time for comics, even when I order them direct, but I'm quite liking the slow pace of Thor. And now that he isn't "holding back" his godly power, I seriously hope he gives everyone that has slighted him or the people he cares about a thrashing.

Marvel "maxim" or some sort of it
http://www.thereeler.com/features/marveling_at_it_all.php

[StoneGold]

Of all the three I question of being "unblemished", the current worst offender is JMS Thor but that's perhaps because of his slow story development. We'll see in about 6 months. Again, pushing D Blake as Thor's flaw doesn't cut it. D Blake is not Thor and he can change form anytime he wants it.

Thor's flaw is his disconnect from humanity. Hence the whole back on Midgard bit. Pretty much set up in the first issue.

[SquidSquod]

Thor's flaw is his disconnect from humanity. Hence the whole back on Midgard bit. Pretty much set up in the first issue.

While in D Blake form, he's not disconnected from humanity and it's not like people sneer at him while in Thor form.

The same thing with Cap's "Out of time" situation, does being disconnected from humanity considered to be a disadvantage, is Thor really that disconnected from humanity and plus, does Thor really longs to be (or at least accepted) by human like Pinocchio? I believe the answer is a resounding No.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

But for having no life, that's his choice. It's not inherent of his character. Captain America has a lot of friends and he make friends in a snap of fingers. He's not a lab geek like Reed, consummate businessman like Tony or having time-consuming job like Peter Parker. So where's the rest of his time gone? Watching sitcoms? Writing novels? Playing computer games? IMO that's life. No way Cap has no life. It's just not being written as detailed as Spider-Man, but the gist of the matter - having no life is not a flaw. Having no life is the ceteris paribus of all superhero. It's something taken to be equal.

No, it was straight up said by Cap himself, Diamondback, maybe Sharon, and I think D-Man or Jack Monroe that he has no personal life.

And yes having no personal life is a flaw, cause that means you are too obsessed with your work. It a major flaw for Batman, why not Cap?

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Double post, sorry about that.

[SquidSquod]

And yes having no personal life is a flaw, cause that means you are too obsessed with your work. It a major flaw for Batman, why not Cap?

But almost everybody in Marvel has no personal life.

Peter Parker - Photographer, School teacher, town crook chaser
Tony Stark - Businessman, Lab rat, socialite playboy, international crook chaser
Reed Richards - Lab rat, time-dimension travelling, lab rat
Logan - X-Men, Avengers, etc

That's why it's ceteris paribus. Other guys have no time for personal life, too.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

But almost everybody in Marvel has no personal life.

Peter Parker - Photographer, School teacher, town crook chaser
Tony Stark - Businessman, Lab rat, socialite playboy, international crook chaser
Reed Richards - Lab rat, time-dimension travelling, lab rat
Logan - X-Men, Avengers, etc

That's why it's ceteris paribus. Other guys have no time for personal life, too.

No no no, I mean, for the most part, Cap didn't even have a job (or was concerned about it). Like, superheroics is his life: that's all he did. I mean sure, he was a freelance artist on the side, among other things (sometimes), but he spends the majority of his life fighting crime.

Which only applies to Logan as well.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

And the other three flaws work as well (you know, stubborn to a fault, hot-headed, naive at times).

[SquidSquod]

No no no, I mean, for the most part, Cap didn't even have a job (or was concerned about it). Like, superheroics is his life: that's all he did. I mean sure, he was a freelance artist on the side, among other things (sometimes), but he spends the majority of his life fighting crime.

Which only applies to Logan as well.

I think it's never being an issue in the depiction of Cap. Is there a story basically saying "Iron Man: oh, look here goes the jobless man taking charge over us again" or "Spidey: Cap, do you other stuff other than contracts?". I'm surprised if there exists a story like it. Cap being what he is has never been criticized or satirized, because according to Marvel U Earth, Cap is a symbol that needs no jobs and as long as he'll be there in great conflicts - he's presence is met with jubilations.



And the other three flaws work as well (you know, stubborn to a fault, hot-headed, naive at times).


I concur. But until around CW, I seldom see the bad implication of this quality, while similarly Wolverine (even minus the naive part) gets his ass kicked far too many times.

[stelok]

Do you think flawless character are becoming the way of the dodo with the death of Captain America, and that's how it should be? Let us look at a few of the Marvel characters

Spider-Man, flaw: emo, perpetual loser
Iron Man, flaw: immoral, egotistical
Mr. Fantastic, flaw: stiff, unemotional
Hawkeye: directionless life
Namor, flaw: pompous @ss
Ms. Marvel, flaw: crybaby, insensitive
Luke Cage, flaw: conflicted, not that smart
Silver Surfer, flaw: conflicted, slave
Daredevil, flaw: sufferer
Wolverine, flaw: Big L
Hulk, flaw: Hulk

against

Captain America, flaw: ? <-- dead
Thor, flaw: ?
Black Panther, flaw: ?

What do you think?

Let's not forget that some of them also have physical flaws. Daredevil and Shroud are both blind. Iron Man's life depended on a pacemaker. Echo is deaf. Professor Xavier is a cripple. Don Blake has a limp and relies on a cane for walking.

The Big difference between Marvel comics characters and other companies' comic characters (DC, Fawcett, etc) during is that Marvel uses flawed characters while other companies used flawless characters.

Almost every character in Marvel Universe is flawed. That may explain why they are sometimes 3-dimensional.

Storm's flaw: claustrophobia
Sentry's flaw: schizophrenia
Thing's flaw: being afraid of being perceived as a monster
Dr. Strange's flaw: selfishness

[TotalWorldDomination]

Cap has nobody he can really connect to. The only two that come close are Nick Fury and Wolverine, mainly due to their backgrounds. Outside of the hero biz, Cap has no life.

Also, he tends to put himself on a pedistal and be a bit of a hypocrit when dealing with other heroes. While it's not a fact they realy hilight much, Captain America has always been more brutal and open to killing by himself and when he leads any other group of heroes, he's the first one to stand up and say that killing is wrong and it shouldn't be done ever.

Cap has had a number of people we've seen him really connect to. He's called Tony his best friend, he's been very close with falcon and some of the also-ran bucky replacements, and lets not forget his female interests. If he didn't connect with Sharon, I'd like to know what connecting is....

The problem with cap being a hypocrite is that it's never been centered on as a flaw in the comics. It's the Marvel Civil War Argument- The editors and writers kept coming out with great reasons to support the SHRA, but these reasons were never actually said or seen IN the comics, making them almost useless.


No no no, I mean, for the most part, Cap didn't even have a job (or was concerned about it). Like, superheroics is his life: that's all he did. I mean sure, he was a freelance artist on the side, among other things (sometimes), but he spends the majority of his life fighting crime.

Which only applies to Logan as well.


Once again I'd argue that since it's never been presented as a flaw, but rather as another facet of cap's dedication, that it can't be seen as a flaw. All of cap's "flaws" have been shown as strengths.

[Castiglione]

Once again I'd argue that since it's never been presented as a flaw, but rather as another facet of cap's dedication, that it can't be seen as a flaw. All of cap's "flaws" have been shown as strengths.

Comic story telling is not a science so everything is open to interpretation.

In my limited opinion the most flawed are the characters that possess massive reserves of power. They can change the face of the world in a heartbeat (for good or evil) yet don't because it would f*** up the current continuity. So is it the characters flaw or the creator/writers flaw?

I suppose the only massively powerful hero that I read is Thor, but (and this is a big but because I've only just started to read his series for the first time) to me he seems to be regulated by his father, or the memory of Odin and the fact that he is mortal, whether in "God" form or Donald Blake form means he actually thinks about his actions.

[Adon]

The thing this thread really tells me is that it's more about the preferences of the individual readers than the characters themselves. Especially in the case of Captain America.

I'm a Cap fan. I have been since I was small. To me, the fact that he was a genuinely good person was something I admired and wanted to try to emulate. Generally, it seems that the fans of Captain America as a character like that aspect of him. Sometimes it's not bad to root for the boy scout.

Those who dislike him tend to be the ones who equate the fact that he IS so good as being boring. And I will readily admit that his personality flaws tend to pale compared to others. While I do think that his lack of personal life is being glossed over by some, they do have a point when they say that compared to others, Cap is nearly saintly.

Basically, it comes down to what you like. Those who want to see deeply flawed heroes tend to roll their eyes at the likes of Captain America and Superman, who by definition are goody two shoes. Those who like them tend to do so BECAUSE they're goody two shoes. And similarly, we (I being one of those who likes him) tend to reject the idea of implanting flaws on them to make them 'more interesting' because in the end it tries to turn them into something they're not.

[The Ray]

Captain America's flaw is his idealism.

He believes. He believes in the fictitious " American Ideal ". He believe and justice and the American Way and all that good crap.

And it's took everything from him. His family. Any chance of a life outside of constant fighting. His world. It took the life he knew and he still goes out and he still fights, even when the doubt is crushing him, even when he's dying, even dead.

Because he believed.

[sinjection]

Is it me or does this not make sense atall?

As his creator doesn't Kirby have the final word on how the Black Panther acts/reacts?

The best answer I can give you is to make this suggestion. If you've never read a Black Panther story written by Jack Kirby, do so and then decide for yourself if I spoke aright.

____sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X

[reta-winter soldier]

the only flaw cap has is HE HAS NO FLAWS. remember the casualties of war one-shot where tony says he's always felt inadequate aside him( and like cap said, tony is a billionare/playboy/genius). IN the MU where every single hero is flawed and is 3 dimensional, cap shines above them all. U think thats whats so interesting about cap he's the only golden hero amongst a bunch of real people and that takes you to very interesting stories.

The only times where he appears to be something far diferent than perfect(civil war) is because many writers take too much "creative liberty". and oh come on cap does have a life, he has a lot of friends( tony and falcon are just 2 examples). The man is whom u wished u were. And why the hell would he get a job? I mean he did work technically for shield and works among the avengers every single day. Imagine if i worked say as a construction worker, he woudnt get any work done and maybe woudnt be seen that well in the eyes of his coworkers

[Kage Kisaragi]

Black Panther: did not invent the cure to cancer, someone else did, it was basically tossed out that Wakanda had the cure for cancer but it was never established that BP invented it or isn't sharing it. Besides to my knowledge anything written in another book is totally up to the other writers of other books to research. If I was writing at Marvel and I read last month that Wakanda had the cure for Cancer I would at least make some mention of it in my book and have a person ask and get the cure from Black Panther. BP: Flaw: None.

Thor: Flaw: has no worshipers and is yet some how powerful.

[jumonji]

Interesting thread. Has anyone mentioned Miss Marvel being an alcoholic? I like that Marvel characters have all these flaws, it definitely makes them a lot more interesting.

Daredevil is kind of an interesting character to me in this respect (his is the only book I read regularly, though I will occasionally look into other Marvel titles as well). While one might easily argue that his shaky mental state and constant anguish are bigger flaws than his blindness, many people seem to walk into one of two "traps" when analyzing his powers. People not familiar with the character will often point to his blindness as a weakness in battle when pitting him against other characters (Batman seems to be a popular one), whereas many fans will point to the "my other senses more than compensate" defense and dismiss his blindness completely as being entirely inconsequential. The truth of it is a little more complicated than that and falls somewhere in between.

What I think people are missing is the difference between a handicap and a disability. Matt Murdock is quite clearly disabled, without doubt. I would even say that his disability is relatively severe (though, of course, nowhere near what it would be if he didn't have his powers). However, a disability is not always a handicap (which, unlike a disability, is context dependent). In battle, Daredevil is very rarely "handicapped" by his disability. In fact, he's perfectly suited for hand to hand combat. In that kind of situation his blindess is not a problem and his other heightened senses are obvious advantages.

The character's disability is far more likely to present a problem in other, far more mundane, situations. Environments in which he would have virtually no advantage over anyone else who is totally blind would be in a school type of setting, something like a conference or even a book store. He also, most definitely can't drive (I'm pretty sure the DMV would take issue with his inability to read street signs...). A much more realistic and nuanced look at what his powers actually do for him is to say that they sometimes "more than compensate," sometimes just about compensate, and quite often don't compensate at all. Of course, that last point is something many writers have missed completely along with the fans, despite that it's a fairly obvious consequence of how his powers actually work. Just something to think about as far as physical flaws are concerned.

Anyway, that was perhaps a needlessly long Daredevil expos&#233;... ;) In general though, I really like how most of Marvel's characters come across as fairly human and realistic. I'm also a fan of how the X-Men highlight the idea of superpower as "difference" and sometimes weakness. It's much easier to write stories about flawed characters (and get them into trouble) than it is to sell the idea that an invulnerable hero is ever in any real danger.

[Sanctus]

Luke might not be Amadeus Cho, but I would hardly call him 'not that smart'. He is at least as smart as Emma, Scott, Captain America and Carol Danvers.

[Monty_Cristo]

now think of everyone that has been mentioned so far. would you believe it if any of them showed up in Daredevil needing defense from a date rape charge? now think of the Irredeemable Ant-Man. he's about as flawed as they come in the marvel universe (imo). he might be dyslexic too.

[Come To Deathstrike]

So. . .um. Black Panther cured Cancer?
Did I read that right?
On page one
:confused: :confused:

[Tobias Drake]

Luke might not be Amadeus Cho, but I would hardly call him 'not that smart'. He is at least as smart as Emma, Scott, Captain America and Carol Danvers.

I don't know...I have a hard time seeing Captain America having a yelling argument on the footsteps of Avengers Tower when he's a wanted criminal. Carol Danvers, I can see it.

[Sanctus]

I don't know...I have a hard time seeing Captain America having a yelling argument on the footsteps of Avengers Tower when he's a wanted criminal. Carol Danvers, I can see it.

During times of intense passion, people make less than stellar decisions. However, such actions should not be considered indicative of their usually level of intelligence.

[Don Quixote]

the only flaw cap has is HE HAS NO FLAWS. remember the casualties of war one-shot where tony says he's always felt inadequate aside him( and like cap said, tony is a billionare/playboy/genius). IN the MU where every single hero is flawed and is 3 dimensional, cap shines above them all. U think thats whats so interesting about cap he's the only golden hero amongst a bunch of real people and that takes you to very interesting stories.


I think Cap was flawed, on a personal level. His guilt over Bucky's death, replaced by his guilt over Bucky's life as a Soviet assassin. His difficulties in adapting to modern life after being defrosted.

And I suppose you could argue that his idealism and faith in humanity is a flaw in the modern world, but I don't think any of those he had dealings with would see it that way.

I just don't think he ever let those flaws impact on his superheroics. He's seen as the 'golden hero' because, no matter what his personal opinions and circumstances, he'd always do the right thing, and always made time to help others do the right thing.

Ok, so compared to some of the emotionally crippled denizens of the Marvel-verse, those are very minor flaws, but they're still there. And now we've got Bucky as the new Cap. If there's a more flawed 'hero' in Marvel comics at the moment, I've not read him.