The Hobbit

[beetheb]

From http://www.theonering.net (A huge online resource for all things LOTR)

What?! Yea - that’s what we said. A website called MarketSaw is reporting that Peter Jackson is confirmed to be directing two films based on ‘The Hobbit’ and both will be presented in 3D format. Then, after The Hobbit films are released (2010,2011 respectively), the original trilogy will be converted to 3D after the release of the two Hobbit Films...http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2007/11/30/28106-site-claims-jackson-to-helm-the-hobbit-in-3d/

Now, this is as unconfirmed as it gets, but let's be honest, if it turned out to be true would it surprise anyone in the least? I think we all knew he would (will) direct the Hobbit eventually, it was just a matter of when he and New Line worked out their little squabble.

Also, for some reason, the elements of "3D" and "Peter Jackson" just seem to fit together. He's known for being extremely accepting of emerging cinematic technology, and 3D is exploding. As long as they don't tailor make the movies to fit in a 3D format, I think this could potentially be awesome news.

So, even if this isn't confirmed, what do you guys think? PJ + TWO "Hobbit" Movies + 3D + 3D re-release of the LOTR trilogy? Yea or Nay?

[Jettison]

Oh hell yeah! Pack your bongos, and dig out....PJ in the mutha****in Hiz-ouse!!!

Man, I'll bet it will be 100 times cooler than Beowulf....god, this is a great time to be alive for cinema!

[DonC]

Now, this is as unconfirmed as it gets, but let's be honest, if it turned out to be true would it surprise anyone in the least?

Yes. And you answered why, too.

I think we all knew he would (will) direct the Hobbit eventually, it was just a matter of when he and New Line worked out their little squabble.


As far as I know, their little squabble hasn't been worked out.

[J. Robb]

I also believe Jackson will make "The Hobbit" eventually, but please let it just be one movie, not two.

[beetheb]

As far as I know, their little squabble hasn't been worked out.Well, there's been no press release to that effect, but no one knows what's been going on behind closed doors. MGM, who have the distribution rights to the film, have more or less said they won't agree to it unless Jackson is involved. Expect Shaye and Lynne to eat some serious crow to make this project happen with Jackson.

[Scorpion13]

I also believe Jackson will make "The Hobbit" eventually, but please let it just be one movie, not two.

Theres still quite a bit of stuff in that book that HAS to be up on the screen. I mean, compared to LOTR, while LOTR is a better story, The Hobbit is much more tightly written. Most of that stuff on there is essential to the plot. The thing could be 4 hours long.

And no way in hell are they passing up the chance to have Beorn in it, either.

If they DO make the thing, I wonder who theyre gonna have voice Smaug.

Ah, idle speculation.

[ultramandingo]

........id rather see meet the feebles or bad taste in 3d

[beetheb]

Well, it was fun while it lasted...

http://aintitcoolnews.com/node/34942

[TomServoFan]

Sounds neat!

[GRANT!]

Well, it was fun while it lasted...

http://aintitcoolnews.com/node/34942

Shit. I was hoping Peter Jackson would at least produce it. Honestly though I'm not loving the two movie idea. I think it should stand on it's own as one movie and not a prequel for LOTR.

[DonC]

Well, it was fun while it lasted...

http://aintitcoolnews.com/node/34942


I'm not surprised. ;)

[matt_hatyber]

ok just say this on tv. ANd it said that peter jackson has just announced that he will be directing two more Middle earth movies. The prequel to Lotr( The hobbit) And a sequel to LOTr. I CAN NOT WAIT.

[PerfectBrak]

They're making two movies, but both are based on The Hobbit. Still awesome though.

http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2007/12/18/28150-peter-jackson-and-new-line-cinema-join-with-mgm-to-produce-%e2%80%9cthe-hobbit%e2%80%9d/

[beetheb]

Confirmed. (http://www.aintitcool.com/node/35108)

Damn, I'm good. :cool: (actually, the website I got the tip from is)

[beetheb]

As far as I know, their little squabble hasn't been worked out.Well, there's been no press release to that effect, but no one knows what's been going on behind closed doors.Now we do.

Official Press Release:

ACADEMY AWARD-WINNER PETER JACKSON AND NEW LINE CINEMA JOIN WITH MGM TO PRODUCE “THE HOBBIT,” EAGERLY-ANTICIPATED FANTASY ADVENTURE EPIC

NEW LINE AND MGM TO CO-PRODUCE AND SHARE WORLDWIDE DISTRIBUTION RIGHTS

PETER JACKSON AND FRAN WALSH TO EXECUTIVE PRODUCE TWO FILMS BASED ON “THE HOBBIT”

Los Angeles, CA (Tuesday, December 18, 2007) Academy Award-winning filmmaker Peter Jackson; Harry Sloan, Chairman and CEO, Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer Studios Inc. (MGM); Bob Shaye and Michael Lynne, Co-Chairmen and Co-CEOs of New Line Cinema have jointly announced today that they have entered into the following series of agreements:

* MGM and New Line will co-finance and co-distribute two films, “The Hobbit” and a sequel to “The Hobbit.” New Line will distribute in North America and MGM will distribute internationally.

* Peter Jackson and Fran Walsh will serve as Executive Producers of two films based on “The Hobbit.” New Line will manage the production of the films, which will be shot simultaneously.

* Peter Jackson and New Line have settled all litigation relating to the “Lord of the Rings” (LOTR) Trilogy.

Said Peter Jackson, “I’m very pleased that we’ve been able to put our differences behind us, so that we may begin a new chapter with our old friends at New Line. ‘The Lord of the Rings’ is a legacy we proudly share with Bob and Michael, and together, we share that legacy with millions of loyal fans all over the world. We are delighted to continue our journey through Middle Earth. I also want to thank Harry Sloan and our new friends at MGM for helping us find the common ground necessary to continue that journey.”

“Peter Jackson has proven himself as the filmmaker who can bring the extraordinary imagination of Tolkien to life and we full heartedly agree with the fans worldwide who know he should be making ‘The Hobbit,’” said Sloan, MGM’s Chairman and CEO. “Now that we are all in agreement on ‘The Hobbit,’ we can focus on assembling the production team that will capture this phenomenal tale on film.”

Bob Shaye, New Line Co-Chairman and Co-CEO comments, “We are very pleased we have been able to resolve our differences, and that Peter and Fran will be actively and creatively involved with ‘The Hobbit’ movies. We know they will bring the same passion, care and talent to these films that they so ably accomplished with ‘The Lord of the Rings’ Trilogy.”

“Peter is a visionary filmmaker, and he broke new ground with ‘The Lord of the Rings,’” notes Michael Lynne, New Line Co-Chairman and Co-CEO. “We’re delighted he’s back for ‘The Hobbit’ films and that the Tolkien saga will continue with his imprint. We greatly appreciate the efforts of Harry Sloan, who has been instrumental in helping us reach our new accord.”

The two “Hobbit” films – “The Hobbit” and its sequel – are scheduled to be shot simultaneously, with pre-production beginning as soon as possible. Principal photography is tentatively set for a 2009 start, with the intention of “The Hobbit” release slated for 2010 and its sequel the following year, in 2011.

The Oscar-winning, critically-acclaimed LOTR Trilogy grossed nearly $3 billion worldwide at the box-office. In 2003, “Return of the King” swept the Academy Awards, winning all of the eleven categories in which it was nominated, including Best Picture – the first ever Best Picture win for a fantasy film. The Trilogy’s production was also unprecedented at the time.

See, I knew this made sense. I'm not sure why they denied the original rumor only to confirm it a few weeks later, but hey, at least now it's confirmed.

So, McKellen as Gandalf? Holm as Bilbo? What are the chances?

[BoosterBronze]

If this is true... it's FREAKING GREAT!!!

[BoosterBronze]

News so good, it needs two threads!!!

[beetheb]

News so good, it needs two threads!!!Shit, I know, I bumped my thread before I noticed this one had been created. :o

Ah well, they can easily be merged.

[beetheb]

If this is true... it's FREAKING GREAT!!!'Tis true. And not surprising in the least, at least to me.

The 3D oughtta be wicked. And also thinking on titles for what the 2nd film will be, as it will almost assuredly be from Tolkien canon.

Maybe they'll sub-title a la LOTR. The Hobbit: There and Back Again & The Hobbit: Riddles in the Dark or somesuch.

[The Zapper]

Lets hope it's good like LOTR, and not crap like King Kong. Come on Petey, show us you still got it.

[matt_hatyber]

the only thing what book would the sequel be based on? or will he try and make a his own middle earth story?





EDit: Sorry beetheb i never saw your thread.

[Bricolo]

Split the Hobbit in half?

[Ryan K]

I'm not psyched about "a sequel to the Hobbit". We had a sequel to The Hobbit. It was called Lord of the Rings. Seems a bit stupid to me. I never read the Silmarillion (sp?) and all of the misc. Tales of Middle Earth stuff. If they can piece together material from those I won't have a problem with it, but I'd be weary of anyone (even Jackson) just creating a Hobbit sequel out of thin air just to make more money.

And am I missing it or is there no mention of Jackson actually directing these?

Because that's the announcement I want to hear. That he and New Line have kissed and made up is nice news, and that he'll be involved as executive producer is good. But how much influence will he wield over the production, especially if some hacks are hired to write and direct this.

[beetheb]

the only thing what book would the sequel be based on? or will he try and make a his own middle earth story?there are multiple appendices that tell the story of the time between The Hobbit and The Fellowship in detail.
Basically, Gandalf and Aragorn lope all over Middle Earth in search of Gollum, and have a run-in with "the Necromancer", who turns out to be someone we know very well from the Trilogy.
It's basically a rush to find Gollum before Sauron does, as Gollum is the only one outside the Fellowship who knows the ring is with Bilbo. Anyone who's seen Fellowship knows how it turns out, but such is the nature of prequels.

Trust me, there's plenty of established Tolkien-written canon to make a second prequel. Actually, it'll probably be pretty damn cool.

EDit: Sorry beetheb i never saw your thread.Well, as a rule you should do a forum search before you start a topic, but it really isn't that big a deal man.

[Super Hero Guy]

Will The Simillarion be next?

I like The Hobbit, but I hope Jackson try doesn't make it in to a 3-hour epic.

[GRANT!]

I'm not psyched about "a sequel to the Hobbit". We had a sequel to The Hobbit. It was called Lord of the Rings. Seems a bit stupid to me. I never read the Silmarillion (sp?) and all of the misc. Tales of Middle Earth stuff. If they can piece together material from those I won't have a problem with it, but I'd be weary of anyone (even Jackson) just creating a Hobbit sequel out of thin air just to make more money.

Yeah. I'm not too crazy about that. I don't think there's enough there to make an interesting movie. Hopefully Hobbit stands on it's own as it's own movie (as it should). Then this extra movie can be just skipped if it's terrible.

And am I missing it or is there no mention of Jackson actually directing these?

He's got Lovely Bones filming now and he's doing a Tin-Tin movie. So he might not have time to film this to make the date New Line and MGM wants.

[GRANT!]

Will The Simillarion be next?

I hope not.

[GRANT!]

Anyone who's seen Fellowship knows how it turns out, but such is the nature of prequels.

Trust me, there's plenty of established Tolkien-written canon to make a second prequel. Actually, it'll probably be pretty damn cool.

Actually this is the problem with prequels. We know basically knows how it ends up. The advantage of the Hobbit is the fact it other then the Gollum scene it has nothing to do with the story of Lord of the Rings. It's it's own thing.

I don't think we really need to know that much about what happened between The Hobbit and Fellowship.

[kmeyers]

I hope not.

I second that...unless it's a musical. Then it might be hilarious.

[Tobias March]

I hope not.


Even if you listen to the commentaries they joke about it as an impossible task. The Simarillion isn't even a book as such. It's like the Bible I always said...but with elves. There is no real over-arching narrative. The antagonist changes midway through, the heroes abandon the earth and the new protagonists are all summarily corrupted by Sauron.

Typical Hollywood fare?....no

[Thorlief]

ah, finally. With all the crap fantasy we've been getting lately it will be quite a refreshing experience

[Tobias March]

It only a shame that in Bob Shaye's quest to screw over Jackson the Golden Compass had to be a failure, by being transformed into some hackneyed ersatz follow up to LOTR.

I lay the blame squarely at that money grubbing fecker's feet.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I'm not interested unless he promises it will it be under 3 hours and crank down the homoeroticism a tad.

That's just me though...

[kmeyers]

I'm not interested unless he promises it will it be under 3 hours and crank down the homoeroticism a tad.

That's just me though...

That's actually kind of sad...

You never had a brother? or a friend you loved? Love isn't always associated with sex. Do you love your mother and father?

[beetheb]

That's actually kind of sad...

You never had a brother? or a friend you loved? Love isn't always associated with sex. Do you love your mother and father?Well, platonic love is one thing, but Sam and Frodo had a few too many longing stares into each others eyes during RotK, on that I'll agree. Half the time it looked like they were going to fall into each others arms kissing.

Eh, it didn't really bother me overly much, the movie kicked so many kinds of ass.

[kmeyers]

Well, platonic love is one thing, but Sam and Frodo had a few too many longing stares into each others eyes during RotK, on that I'll agree. Half the time it looked like they were going to fall into each others arms kissing.

Eh, it didn't really bother me overly much, the movie kicked so many kinds of ass.
But look at it from the writer's perspective. Tolkien and his buddies(and Sam, Frodo Merry and Pippin) had been through a war.

I don't know how I would look at a person who saved my life, but I assume it would be quite lovingly and thankful.

[beetheb]

But look at it from the writer's perspective. Tolkien and his buddies(and Sam, Frodo Merry and Pippin) had been through a war.

I don't know how I would look at a person who saved my life, but I assume it would be quite lovingly and thankful.Well, you have to account for dramatic effect as well, but yeah, I realize where the relationship was coming from, which was why I said it really didn't bother me that much.

Aside from that, The Hobbit will be mostly gruff Dwarves, so I doubt we'll get quite so many longing stares.

[asloveislost]

Well, it was fun while it lasted...

http://aintitcoolnews.com/node/34942

They're doing TINTIN????!?!?!
wow another flat out movie about racism on the big screen... haha nah tin tin is great.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

That's actually kind of sad...

You never had a brother? or a friend you loved? Love isn't always associated with sex. Do you love your mother and father?

Yup, but I don't jump into bed and start cuddling with any of them like the Hobbits did at the end of Return of The King.

....well, not since I was 7 years old anyway.

I understand what you're saying, but if you can't see how these films and books are homoerotic....well, frankly, you just don't know what homoeroticism is. It's like trying to argue that Batman & Robin aren't homoerotic. Obviously, the creators didn't intend for them to be perceived as gay--but it sure as hell looks that way to the rest of the world when you put together two guys in outfits like that.

Of course, I'm not saying that any of this is a bad thing. I quite like Tolkein and I don't have any problems with gay people. It's just not something I want to watch for two plus hours. A little homoeroticism goes a long way with me is all I'm saying. I don't need it poured over the entire film like gravy on poutine.

[jesse_custer]

I weep for those of us who remember "Dead Alive" and "Heavenly Creatures."

[Shadowfax32]

According to Entertainment Tonight, Jackson will executive produce a two-movie adaptation. Part one will open in 2009 and part two in 2010. No word on who's directing.

[BoosterBronze]

I weep for those of us who remember "Dead Alive" and "Heavenly Creatures."

I remember both fondly. Why the weeping?

[jesse_custer]

I think Jackson is on the dark side now. He needs to start producing and directing more stuff like those movies.

[BoosterBronze]

I think Jackson is on the dark side now. He needs to start producing and directing more stuff like those movies.

You mean cheap shock pic horror comedys like Bad Taste or Dead Alive, or fascinating dramas like Heavenly Creatures?

[jesse_custer]

Movies that don't cater to obsessive book fans.

[Tobias March]

Movies that don't cater to obsessive book fans.

I don't know if you noticed, but LOTR had chicks in it....that must have freaked out plenty of Tolkien fans :D

[Agent Helix]

Movies that don't cater to obsessive book fans.

I hate the books. Loved the movies.

[GRANT!]

I think Jackson is on the dark side now. He needs to start producing and directing more stuff like those movies.

He's doing Lovely Bones right now. That sounds pretty promising.

[jesse_custer]

I hate the books. Loved the movies.

Same here. Especially the first two. They really felt like genuine pieces of art. Return of the King got halfway there. But I think we all suspect how these next two films will turn out, if we're honest with ourselves. I don't think even Raimi can save them. Maybe if they let Paul Verhoeven direct they could be legitimate satires of the bloated fantasy film subgenre.

Haven't heard of Lovely Bones, so maybe that will cheer me up.

[Agent Helix]

Same here. Especially the first two. They really felt like genuine pieces of art. Return of the King got halfway there. But I think we all suspect how these next two films will turn out, if we're honest with ourselves. I don't think even Raimi can save them. Maybe if they let Paul Verhoeven direct they could be legitimate satires of the bloated fantasy film subgenre.

Haven't heard of Lovely Bones, so maybe that will cheer me up.

Lovely Bones is a much smaller piece, like Heavenly Creatures. I haven't read the book that it's based on, but it sounds very intriguing.

As for the Hobbit, I think it should go to another director, if they make it at all. It's a genuinely fun story that could be well made as a family film, but it's not an epic, and certainly needs no more than 2 1/2 hours AT THE MOST to tell the story. Last I heard, Jackson was only interested in producing this one, anyway.

[GRANT!]

Haven't heard of Lovely Bones, so maybe that will cheer me up.

The book is really good. It's more in the Heavenly Creatures vein but it really isn't like anything he's done before. It sort of has an Oprah book club premise (little girl is murdered and goes to heaven and watches her family fall apart) but it's got a very dark unsentimental and sometimes funny tone to it.

Should be interesting to see how it pans out. But a couple positive script reviews have popped up.

[GRANT!]

Lovely Bones is a much smaller piece, like Heavenly Creatures. I haven't read the book that it's based on, but it sounds very intriguing.

As for the Hobbit, I think it should go to another director, if they make it at all. It's a genuinely fun story that could be well made as a family film, but it's not an epic, and certainly needs no more than 2 1/2 hours AT THE MOST to tell the story. Last I heard, Jackson was only interested in producing this one, anyway.

A lot of stuff happens in the Hobbit though. More then any of the LOTR books. I can see it being three hours. I mean there's a couple big set pieces involving the spiders, trolls, orcs, Smaug and the battle of the 5 armies.

According to Entertainment Weekly (http://hollywoodinsider.ew.com/2007/12/its-back-to-mid.html) he's not directing. Which might be a good thing depending on the director.

[jesse_custer]

See, even though the LOTR books are overtly pretentious and plodding, I thought "The Hobbit" novel was pretty good for what it is. But I have a feeling the movie will seem formulaic. It will probably overdose on heavy CGI, dramatic music, and so on.

[beetheb]

See, even though the LOTR books are overtly pretentious and plodding, I thought "The Hobbit" novel was pretty good for what it is. But I have a feeling the movie will seem formulaic. It will probably overdose on heavy CGI, dramatic music, and so on.Well Jesse, at least you're optimistic, and that's always good to see.

And it's a bit of a bummer that Jackson can't/won't direct, but the idea of Sam Raimi directing is very intriguing....if there's one man I'd trust to make a grand, sprawling epic as much as Peter Jackson (and make it good), it's probably Sam Raimi.

And let's face it, he's got to be Spider-Man-ed out by now, The Hobbit may just put all kinds of fresh new wind under his creative sails.

[BoosterBronze]

Well Jesse, at least you're optimistic, and that's always good to see.

And it's a bit of a bummer that Jackson can't/won't direct, but the idea of Sam Raimi directing is very intriguing....if there's one man I'd trust to make a grand, sprawling epic as much as Peter Jackson (and make it good), it's probably Sam Raimi.

And let's face it, he's got to be Spider-Man-ed out by now, The Hobbit may just put all kinds of fresh new wind under his creative sails.

I hope Hobbit is at least similar in style to LOTR. I know the story is fundamentally different thematically, but I hope eventually I can sit and watch all 52 hours of these films, and not feel jarred by a drastic change in style.

[beetheb]

I hope Hobbit is at least similar in style to LOTR. If Jackson is Exec-Producing (which is probably what he'll end up doing) then it's pretty much a guarantee that they'll use both Weta Workshop and Weta Digital for the effects and costumes....that alone should give the two projects a remarkable kinship.

Also, no matter who's directing, McKellen, Weaving and Serkis will no doubt be back...so yeah, the film should definitely flow with the LOTR Trilogy, I'd think.

As far as the tone of the film: It'll probably be less heavy-handed and a lot more whimsical, which is exactly in keeping with the tone of the book.

[ultramandingo]

I weep for those of us who remember "Dead Alive" and "Heavenly Creatures."

....... i hoping for a "feeble" version wih gay hobbits and musical numbers

[Jared]

Ian Holme isn't getting any younger. I wonder if casting him will be an issue. I always thought it seemed foolhardy to show his face during the flashback in Fellowhip's prologue. Now we *know* that he looked exactly the same back then.

I think the The Hobbit's story could fit into 2 1/2 hours. Save going over 3 for the inevitable Extended Edition.

I haven't read Lost Tales or the encyclopedia. Doesn't Gandalf's encounter with The Necromancer happen during the events of the The Hobbit, but off page? Gandalf did disappear for good chunks of the story. I seem to remember the news being related late in the book that The Necromancer had been overthrown, and that this was more good news for our heroes. I haven't read Lost Tales, but I assume that's where this story is told. I assumed that all this sort of thing was told in more or less an appendix form, ala the second half or so of the ROTK book.

[Tobias March]

I haven't read Lost Tales or the encyclopedia. Doesn't Gandalf's encounter with The Necromancer happen during the events of the The Hobbit, but off-ar the end that the Necromancer (who'd only been referenced a few times) Gandalf did disappear for good chunks of the story. I seem to remember the news being related late in the book that he had been overthrown, and that this was more good new for our heroes. I haven't read Lost Tales, but I assume that's where this story is told. I assumed that all this sort of thing was told in more or less an appendix form, ala the second half or so of the ROTK book.

Like LOTR there's a lot that happens 'off camera' as it were in the Hobbit that could be introduced to make the film more epic. (although that might lose the book's intimate feel)

Gandalf and the Council, including Saruman and Galadriel, throw down Don Guldar and the Necromancer, revealed to be Sauron flees...but only because his new base in Mordor has been re-established.

Possibility of Chrisopher Lee and Cate Blanchett cameos?

[Jared]

Like LOTR there's a lot that happens 'off camera' as it were in the Hobbit that could be introduced to make the film more epic. (although that might lose the book's intimate feel)

Gandalf and the Council, including Saruman and Galadriel, throw down Don Guldar and the Necromancer, revealed to be Sauron flees...but only because his new base in Mordor has been re-established.



I thought it was something like that. Are the events actually actually told in story-form, or just outlined? It seems to me like it'd be pointless to make a movie of it *without* Lee and Blanchett, but I wonder how a fantasy movie where all the protagonists are elder wizards will work.

[beetheb]

Like LOTR there's a lot that happens 'off camera' as it were in the Hobbit that could be introduced to make the film more epic. (although that might lose the book's intimate feel)Well, with events as epic as:
Gandalf and the Council, including Saruman and Galadriel, throw down Don Guldar and the Necromancer, revealed to be Sauron flees...but only because his new base in Mordor has been re-established.that transpire "off-camera" having such potential to be cinematic gold, I'd say the chances are pretty good they'll split the narrative between these two major plotlines, which will of course intertwine near the end.

Jackson did this same thing numerous times in the original Trilogy, and in pretty much every case it made the story better.

Possibility of Chrisopher Lee and Cate Blanchett cameos?Strong. Especially Lee.

[Tobias March]

I thought it was something like that. Are the events actually actually told in story-form, or just outlined? It seems to me like it'd be pointless to make a movie of it *without* Lee and Blanchett, but I wonder how a fantasy movie will where all the protagonists are elder wizards will work.

It occurs during the period in which Gandalf has left the company. I believe Gandalf and Saruman were the only wizards on the Council, save for Radaghast, but he doesn't feature too prominently as he's gone 'native'.

I always wanted to see the sequence where Gandalf breaks into the jail of Don Guldur to attempt to rescue Thorin's father. That was such a tragic story.

[beetheb]

It occurs during the period in which Gandalf has left the company. I believe Gandalf and Saruman were the only wizards on the Council, save for Radaghast, but he doesn't feature too prominently as he's gone 'native'.

I always wanted to see the sequence where Gandalf breaks into the jail of Don Guldur to attempt to rescue Thorin's father. That was such a tragic story.See, all that could be told in flashback, as was done a number of times in LOTR.

And there are 5 Wizards of varying colors, Btw. The three you mentioned plus two others that never have specific colors or names mentioned (that I know of).

Also, in one of it's Appendices RotK has a detailed, annual accounting of the 60 years between The Hobbit and FotR. I don't recall it exactly, but the gist of it was Gandalf and Aragorn chase Gollum all over Middle Earth -- including into Mordor and back -- with Gollum finally being captured by Saurons forces. (as is shown in the Prologue to FotR)

So, I guess I'm not really giving away the story any more to tell you that than someone would have been giving away the story to tell you that Anakin becomes Darth Vader at the end of Episode 3.

[Tobias March]

See, all that could be told in flashback, as was done a number of times in LOTR.

And there are 5 Wizards of varying colors, Btw. The three you mentioned plus two others that never have specific colors or names mentioned (that I know of)..

Well we never meet the other two. Tolkien made some statement to the effect that they travelled East and failed in their mission, perhaps even became cult figures like Saruman. All the wizards failed in fact, with the exception of the humble Gandalf, who kept plugging away.

[GRANT!]

Also, in one of it's Appendices RotK has a detailed, annual accounting of the 60 years between The Hobbit and FotR. I don't recall it exactly, but the gist of it was Gandalf and Aragorn chase Gollum all over Middle Earth -- including into Mordor and back -- with Gollum finally being captured by Saurons forces. (as is shown in the Prologue to FotR).

Yeah still can't excited over that movie.

[Jared]

It seems odd that Gollum would be so hard to catch. He's basically a deformed little heroine junkie who can't be all that fast and most assuredly reeks.

Aragorn can tell what somebody had for dinner from their footprints, but it took him 60 years to find this guy?!

[The Zapper]

It seems odd that Gollum would be so hard to catch. He's basically a deformed little heroine junkie who can't be all that fast and most assuredly wreaks.

Aragorn can tell what somebody had for dinner from their footprints, but it took him 60 years to find this guy?!


Always judge a book by it's cover. It will get you far in life.

[GRANT!]

Working on a show about police officers I have to tell you junkies can be pretty hard to find sometimes. Sometimes it takes them weeks to find a crackhead.

[beetheb]

It seems odd that Gollum would be so hard to catch. He's basically a deformed little heroine junkie who can't be all that fast and most assuredly wreaks.

Aragorn can tell what somebody had for dinner from their footprints, but it took him 60 years to find this guy?!Well, you're not quite realizing how slippery Gollum really is. The whole reason he knew how to guide Frodo and Sam through the Emyn Muil (rock labyrinth) the Dead Marshes and Mordor was because he'd been there before while fleeing Gandalf and Aragorn.

Also, they don't chase him for the entire 60 years, plenty of other stuff happens that I just can't recall at the moment. Perhaps someone with a copy of the book can give that particular appendices a look-see and give us a more detailed synopsis.

[Davideaux]

Are there any female characters in "the Hobbit"? I don't recall any.

[Tobias March]

Are there any female characters in "the Hobbit"? I don't recall any.

um.......at the Mirkwood elven feast I'm sure......and among Brand's people.

But yeah that's it.

[Alex]

Yeah still can't excited over that movie.

http://www.house.gov/goode/images/photos/richmond041.jpg

[Jared]

Working on a show about police officers I have to tell you junkies can be pretty hard to find sometimes. Sometimes it takes them weeks to find a crackhead.

Sure, but how many of them look like Gollum? I mean the guy probably can't walk through a village without people breaking out the torches and pitchforks.

[Jared]

Always judge a book by it's cover. It will get you far in life.

Someone is taking things a little too seriously, me thinks.

[GRANT!]

Sure, but how many of them look like Gollum? I mean the guy probably can't walk through a village without people breaking out the torches and pitchforks.

Quite a few actually.

[beetheb]

[IMG]http://www.house.gov/goode/images/photos/richmond041.jpgI'm not sure how you consider them "milking it" when it's all established, Tolkien-written story.
Perhaps you don't like the idea of the movie, which is your perogative, but that doesn't mean they're milking anything. There's enough story to make ten more movies.

Sure, but how many of them look like Gollum? I mean the guy probably can't walk through a village without people breaking out the torches and pitchforks.Well, if you'd read the books you'd know that Gollum doesn't walk through villages, he slinks around them in the woods. Usually in the dead of night, as the books also establish that he hates the sun and tends to sleep during the day.

Like I said, Gollum isn't like a crackhead you'd see hiding in an alley on Dog the Bounty Hunter, he's a slippery little weasel. He followed the Fellowship for something like 6 months, Aragorn included, without them ever realizing he was there.

And besides, I really have no idea if that will even be the premise of the movie. This is all 100% conjecture, so let's not get skeptical just yet.

[Alex]

I'm not sure how you consider them "milking it" when it's all established, Tolkien-written story.
Perhaps you don't like the idea of the movie, which is your perogative, but that doesn't mean they're milking anything. There's enough story to make ten more movies.


The man wrote and finished 5 books in that world.
They are making 6 movies.

[beetheb]

The man wrote and finished 5 books in that world.
They are making 6 movies.There were actually many more than 5 books published. His son, Christopher Tolkien, edited and released many more that he wrote, including one released this year: The Children of Hurin.
Even in the trilogy they introduced massive amounts of story from The Hobbit, The RotK appendices and some from the Silmarillion, so looking at it as one book = one movie is rather glib. Considering they're all a mishmash of Tolkien literature and are better understood as an entire mythology than a series of books, you can't really look at it like a Harry Potter movie, where one book really does equal one movie (and one year).

You're also not accounting for the fact that the Lord of the Rings Trilogy is six books rolled into one massive Novel. So by your 1 book = 1 movie reasoning, they could have made six movies of the Original Trilogy, as well as an entire movie for the prologue itself.

Including all the Books of Lost tales, The Silmarillion, The Children of Hurin, The Hobbit and the massive amounts of info in the RotK appendices, they're a long way away from milking anything.

Hell, if they really wanted to tap Tolkien's mythology, there's probably another Trilogy of Trilogies left.

[GRANT!]

Looks like Gulliermo Del Toro might be helming both movies. (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/content_display/news/e3i331d7d05b8008476b2fae087024a2b8e)

I think he could pull it off pretty well. I'm curious what 150 million dollar Del Toro movie would look like.

[Neal R]

Looks like Gulliermo Del Toro might be helming both movies. (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/content_display/news/e3i331d7d05b8008476b2fae087024a2b8e)

I think he could pull it off pretty well. I'm curious what 150 million dollar Del Toro movie would look like.

I'd be curious about that too. 150 million is approximately twice the budget for each hellboy feature. And Hellboy 1 was impressive looking enough. I look forward to future Hobbit developments.

[hoffmandu]

The heads are morons if they don't they don't hand the reigns to Toro.

[beetheb]

Looks like Gulliermo Del Toro might be helming both movies. (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/content_display/news/e3i331d7d05b8008476b2fae087024a2b8e)

I think he could pull it off pretty well. I'm curious what 150 million dollar Del Toro movie would look like.Awesome. Del Toro will completely do the movies justice, as good as if not better than Jackson could have himself.

This is great news, as there really was the potential for them to drop the ball on this and give it to someone who wasn't right for the films. Del Toro is perfect.

[ultramandingo]

......... did they go for the director who looked the most like jackson? both those guys could pass for hobbits

[Neal R]

......... did they go for the director who looked the most like jackson? both those guys could pass for hobbits

Guillermo Del Toro, Doug Jones and Ron Perlman were at a small LA area convention promoting the first Hellboy before it was released. A good time was had by all. Then one fan stood up and said, "I have a question for Peter Jackson..."

Brought the house down, I'm telling you.

[Paul Newell]

And there are 5 Wizards of varying colors, Btw. The three you mentioned plus two others that never have specific colors or names mentioned (that I know of).
They were only known as the Blue Wizards and both went into the lands east of Mordor. I think the only mention they get is in the Appendices.

[SensorBoy]

Well we never meet the other two. Tolkien made some statement to the effect that they travelled East and failed in their mission, perhaps even became cult figures like Saruman. All the wizards failed in fact, with the exception of the humble Gandalf, who kept plugging away.

Tolkien changed his mind about The Blue Wizards (Alatar and Pallando) later on, deciding that they had, in fact, succeeded in their mission, undermining Sauron's grip on the Far East. It just happens waaaaaaay off-camera, such that none of it is known to the storytellers in the West (who write the chronicles which LOTR is transcribed from).

Radaghast (Brown) seems to get a reprieve, as he was simply inept and didn't actively turn. He even managed to assist Gandalf once or twice.

[SensorBoy]

I'd like to see a 3hr film version of the Exile of The Noldor/War of the Jewels. Feanor throwing down with 9(!) Balrogs at once. Epic cinema.

Fall of Gondolin, maybe?

The Lay of Beren and Luthien could be the ultimate date movie. Sappy romance and Werewolf-wrestling! That's a winner.

[hoffmandu]

......... did they go for the director who looked the most like jackson? both those guys could pass for hobbits

To be fair, Toro is far less sweaty..........Man, after Pan's, I'm really surprised Toro isn't getting whatever he desires for projects.

[beetheb]

I'd like to see a 3hr film version of the Exile of The Noldor/War of the Jewels. Feanor throwing down with 9(!) Balrogs at once. Epic cinema.

Fall of Gondolin, maybe?

The Lay of Beren and Luthien could be the ultimate date movie. Sappy romance and Werewolf-wrestling! That's a winner.See, thats what I mean about the richness of Tolkiens mythology. There are so many events that, even though sometimes told by Tolkien or his son in a matter of a few pages (or even paragraphs), could support entire films.

You're obviously much more versed in Tolkien lore than I, what else might this "second Hobbit Prequel" consist of? I know Gandalf and Aragorn track Gollum, but what else of significance happens in that 60 years?

and BTW: In what book are the Blue WIzards given specific names and Missions? Was this an after-the-fact statement by Tolkien, or is it actually written down somewhere?

[The Shelf]

See, thats what I mean about the richness of Tolkiens mythology. There are so many events that, even though sometimes told by Tolkien or his son in a matter of a few pages (or even paragraphs), could support entire films.

You're obviously much more versed in Tolkien lore than I, what else might this "second Hobbit Prequel" consist of? I know Gandalf and Aragorn track Gollum, but what else of significance happens in that 60 years?

and BTW: In what book are the Blue WIzards given specific names and Missions? Was this an after-the-fact statement by Tolkien, or is it actually written down somewhere?

I still think Silmarillion needs to be turned into a TV series. There's enough story there to last 5 seasons at least. Though the budget for a TV series probably wouldn't do it justice since the special effects would often need to be better than what was in the LotR films.

As far as other content that could be stuck into the second Hobbit film... Didn't Sauron's base in Dol Guldur in the southern tip of Mirkwood get overthrown during that time? And I think they could show Sauron acquiring the final Dwarven ring because I think that happens during that time frame. It's been a while since I've read any of the books, so my memory is fuzzy.

I'm curious what they will name the second film. They can't call it The Hobbit Part 2 because the hobbits have nothing to do with the stories they could tell during that time frame. I think the second film would have to center strictly around Gandalf, Aragorn, Gollum, and the Dwarves.

[SensorBoy]

See, thats what I mean about the richness of Tolkiens mythology. There are so many events that, even though sometimes told by Tolkien or his son in a matter of a few pages (or even paragraphs), could support entire films.

The main Silmarillion, War of The Jewels (Noldor & Men versus Morgoth, in the First Age) period, could generate 10-12 movies alone.

You're obviously much more versed in Tolkien lore than I, what else might this "second Hobbit Prequel" consist of? I know Gandalf and Aragorn track Gollum, but what else of significance happens in that 60 years?

Well, in that period:

Gandalf and the White Council (Saruman, Galadriel, Cirdan, Elrond and Celeborn, with a few unknown parties) boot Sauron out of Mirkwood/Dol Guldur.

Aragorn switches between tracking Gollum and tearing through Harad and Umbar (places where naughty Numenoreans live), along with undescribed adventures in the East. Basically helping out Gandalf and trying to impress Elrond.

Note: Aragorn is almost 100yo when LOTR begins. It's good to be Dunedain, I guess...

and BTW: In what book are the Blue WIzards given specific names and Missions? Was this an after-the-fact statement by Tolkien, or is it actually written down somewhere?

All the Wizards (Istari) have the same mission; Advise and teach the Free Peoples (mainly Men, but the Elves need a hint now and then). They aren't supposed to lead or dominate, as they are meant to be clearly different from Sauron.

All that is mentioned of the Blue Wizards is that they (immediately, by implication) went East, to undermine Sauron. Tolkien's comments other than that are in the various History of Middle Earth books.




Note: Both the Wizards and Sauron are the same types of entity. Maiar (basically low-grade angels or kami). The Istari accepted a massive reduction in power in order to gain the trust of the inhabitants of ME (in comparison to Sauron, who throws his power around, and is obviously nonhuman). That's why they look like old guys, instead of 2-meter demigods.
One of the reasons Gandalf had such a hard time with the Balrog (also a Maia), whom he could normally have taken rather easily, is that the Balrog was operating at full power, while Gandalf had to avoid exceeding his ROE.

Basically, nothing happens in LOTR that isn't a response to something either Morgoth or the Noldor did, 6500 years earlier, in the First Age. It isn't until you read the Silmarillion that you understand that Galadriel isn't exactly the nice person she appears to be in the Third Age, or why Elrond doesn't mind Aragorn (essentially a many-times-removed Nephew) hooking up with his Daughter, or why exactly the Elves are no longer running the show.

Hell, you could make a trilogy out of the Last Alliance of Elves and Men alone. Be worth it just to see Gil-Galad, Elendil, Elrond, Isildur and Cirdan all dogpiling Sauron at once.

[The Shelf]

One of the reasons Gandalf had such a hard time with the Balrog (also a Maia), whom he could normally have taken rather easily, is that the Balrog was operating at full power, while Gandalf had to avoid exceeding his ROE.

Where is this stated? As you said, the wizards, Sauron, and the Balrogs are all the same types of entities, so how could Gandalf have taken a Balrog easily? And what's ROE?

I've read the Silmarillion, LotR, and the Hobbit, so if that last bit was mentioned elsewhere, then that's why I didn't know about it. Still, it sounds odd to me that Gandalf's choice of form made him too weak to fight a Balrog.

[Jared]

It isn't until you read the Silmarillion that you understand that Galadriel isn't exactly the nice person she appears to be in the Third Age, or why Elrond doesn't mind Aragorn (essentially a many-times-removed Nephew) hooking up with his Daughter,


In the movie Elrond clearly wanted something better for his little girl. That was a change I liked actually, along with Aragorn being more reluctant to embrace his legacy. In the book, he's carrying the broken sword around when we first see him.

[SensorBoy]

Where is this stated? As you said, the wizards, Sauron, and the Balrogs are all the same types of entities, so how could Gandalf have taken a Balrog easily? And what's ROE?

I've read the Silmarillion, LotR, and the Hobbit, so if that last bit was mentioned elsewhere, then that's why I didn't know about it. Still, it sounds odd to me that Gandalf's choice of form made him too weak to fight a Balrog.

I believe Tolkien states it in either a volume of HoME or in the Letters. You can probably find it online.

In The Two Towers, Gandalf explicitly states (to Gimli) that the only being in ME more powerful than himself was Sauron.

The Balrogs were limited in their powers (compared to what they were in the beginning), due to the decline suffered by all the evil Maiar (and Morgoth himself). The Valar (and the majority of Maiar, who remained loyal) didn't bind themselves to Middle Earth, and as such were as powerful as ever.

Olorin (Gandalf's real name) is/was a Maiar in good standing, operating within his remit. As such, he would have been capable of crushing the Balrog, had he been allowed to do so (Rules Of Engagement basically stated that he couldn't use both barrels while on his mission).

Lastly, Olorin/Gandalf never chose the mission (he was frightened of Sauron). He was drafted by Manwe (head of the Valar), and the Old-Geezer Form was mandated. The Valar had already tried directly intervening in Middle Earth, but after Numenor they decided to try something a little more subtle.

Unfinished Tales contains a lot of behind-the-scenes info about Gandalf.

[SensorBoy]

In the movie Elrond clearly wanted something better for his little girl. That was a change I liked actually, along with Aragorn being more reluctant to embrace his legacy. In the book, he's carrying the broken sword around when we first see him.

Elrond comes off a bit slyer in the books, as he tells Aragorn that he won't give Arwen to any man but the King of Gondor.

'Course, he was probably just happy that she didn't end up pinned to a tree, burned alive or drowned like a lot of Tolkien's secondary character romantic foils.

[asloveislost]

This sounds really interesting, i'm going to have to read The Hobbit, since i've only read LOTR trilogy.
Tolkien was a genius.

[beetheb]

I believe Tolkien states it in either a volume of HoME or in the Letters. You can probably find it online.

In The Two Towers, Gandalf explicitly states (to Gimli) that the only being in ME more powerful than himself was Sauron.

The Balrogs were limited in their powers (compared to what they were in the beginning), due to the decline suffered by all the evil Maiar (and Morgoth himself). The Valar (and the majority of Maiar, who remained loyal) didn't bind themselves to Middle Earth, and as such were as powerful as ever.

Olorin (Gandalf's real name) is/was a Maiar in good standing, operating within his remit. As such, he would have been capable of crushing the Balrog, had he been allowed to do so (Rules Of Engagement basically stated that he couldn't use both barrels while on his mission).

Lastly, Olorin/Gandalf never chose the mission (he was frightened of Sauron). He was drafted by Manwe (head of the Valar), and the Old-Geezer Form was mandated. The Valar had already tried directly intervening in Middle Earth, but after Numenor they decided to try something a little more subtle.

Unfinished Tales contains a lot of behind-the-scenes info about Gandalf.
Wow....information overload. I've barely scratched the surface of Tolkiens writings, and I've always been much more a fan of Jackson's movies than Tolkien's literature (though I thought "The Hobbit" was a fantastic read).

Either way, I expect the studios will indeed go back into the writings of the 1st/2nd age, as long as movies based on Tolkien's fantasy are proven money-makers....and I don't mind that one bit. Tolkien stories, when adapted to the big screen by a skillful director, are about as good as movie fantasy gets.

[The Shelf]

Thanks, SensorBoy! I think I actually have the Unfinished Tales book, but I never got around to reading it because by that point I was getting burnt out on LotR having read the books several times and watched the movies so many times. I think I'll have to whip that one back out soon. In fact, I think I may go read Silmarillion again too. There are so many epic stories in the 1st and 2nd ages.

[beetheb]

Del Toro "99% Certain", says New Line Insider (http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2008/01/30/28331-torn-exclusive-del-toro-%e2%80%9c99-percent-certain%e2%80%9d-says-nl-insider/)

Yup, these movies chances of being awesome just went way, way up.

[Jared]

I believe Tolkien states it in either a volume of HoME or in the Letters. You can probably find it online.

In The Two Towers, Gandalf explicitly states (to Gimli) that the only being in ME more powerful than himself was Sauron.
.

IIRC, the quote was something like "only if you stood before the Dark Lord himself could you face greater peril." Even so, I doubt Tolkien intends to suggest that Gandalf could wreck anything and everybody shy of Sauron without a problem. After all, his interrupted confrontation with the Witch King seems to portay them as equals.

Anyway, with Jackson possibly burned out from the LOTR trilogy, not to mention sour from the dispute with New Line, Del Toro is the perfect choice. Hell, he's got more experience with big budgets and fantasy/action than Jackson did before he started LOTR.

[SensorBoy]

Even so, I doubt Tolkien intends to suggest that Gandalf could wreck anything and everybody shy of Sauron without a problem.


Gandalf couldn't. Olorin could. Gandalf is Olorin without a big chunk of his power available.

[Jared]

Gandalf couldn't. Olorin could. Gandalf is Olorin without a big chunk of his power available.

I always thought the implication however was that the gloves came off when Gandalf and the Balrog were battling through Moria.

[sherlockbones]

I also strongly disagree. I´ve never interpreted this quote from a rumble boards point of view. Gandalf follows Obi Wan´s certain pov-path...
Btw a thing I am very fond of in these novels. There is no such think as strict guide to power. This keeps the whole work open to imagination.

Further I am very sure that there are similarities of the Valar/Maiar pantheon to an elemental/zodiac/tree of life code.

Olorion is not automatically more powerful than a balrog in pure "wizadry" but rather in the way that his powers are operating at a different layer.
Knowing the hearts of Illuvatars children and using that knowledge to streghten them for the things to come.

It is excatly stated that only the mighties of the Valar and the most powerful Maiar could stand up to the Balrogs. Such as Eonwe and the guy who caried the sun seed.

Another good example is Osse(?), a servant to Ulmo, which is obviously one of the most powerful Maiar in raw terms. But Tolkien´s pantheon is all about check and balance or corruption and overcoming challenges.

To get you into the way how power works in Tolkien´s works I just ask you the question why Melian never entered "physical" combat with any of the dark creatures.

It is out of her character...

Same for Gandalf, he was not ment to be a fighter, but as a counselor.
Him being victorious over the Balrog was a way to describe his personal ascencion, not being more "powerful" perse.

Gandalf defying the master nazgul is a very different story

[SensorBoy]

It is excatly stated that only the mighties of the Valar and the most powerful Maiar could stand up to the Balrogs. Such as Eonwe and the guy who caried the sun seed.



Errr...that turns out not to be the case. Noldor elves took on Balrogs, on multiple occasions (Feanor, Ecthelion* and Glorfindel), and (with the possible exception of Feanor, due to his uncertain nature) none of them were on the level of the Maiar and Valar.

Melian doesn't go toe-to-toe with, say, Gothmog, because she, like Gandalf, is wearing a mortal form (explicitly stated, as she leaves it when Thingol is killed), which limits the expression of her personal power.

Tolkien, never spoiling a story with too much detail, doesn't address whether the balance of the Maiar's powers were simple unavailable while in mortal form, or if they were available but using too much was forbidden (or would destroy the mortal form).

He does write that both Morgoth and the Maiar who followed him were weakened by the roles they chose to play (Morgoth corrupted the World by putting a lot of his power into it, which was then lost to him, he also loses the ability to change his form), and the injuries done to them (Sauron loses his "pleasing form" ability during the Downfall of Numenor).

*-Feanor takes on 9 Balrogs, including Gothmog, in a fairly extended battle (it's implied, perhaps, that it was less the wounds and more the fact that he used too much power, that killed him). Ecthelion kills Gothmog (dying in the process). Glorfindel kills another a few hours later (also dying in the process, temporarily).

[sherlockbones]

Errr...that turns out not to be the case. Noldor elves took on Balrogs, on multiple occasions (Feanor, Ecthelion* and Glorfindel), and (with the possible exception of Feanor, due to his uncertain nature) none of them were on the level of the Maiar and Valar.

Melian doesn't go toe-to-toe with, say, Gothmog, because she, like Gandalf, is wearing a mortal form (explicitly stated, as she leaves it when Thingol is killed), which limits the expression of her personal power.

Tolkien, never spoiling a story with too much detail, doesn't address whether the balance of the Maiar's powers were simple unavailable while in mortal form, or if they were available but using too much was forbidden (or would destroy the mortal form).

He does write that both Morgoth and the Maiar who followed him were weakened by the roles they chose to play (Morgoth corrupted the World by putting a lot of his power into it, which was then lost to him, he also loses the ability to change his form), and the injuries done to them (Sauron loses his "pleasing form" ability during the Downfall of Numenor).

*-Feanor takes on 9 Balrogs, including Gothmog, in a fairly extended battle (it's implied, perhaps, that it was less the wounds and more the fact that he used too much power, that killed him). Ecthelion kills Gothmog (dying in the process). Glorfindel kills another a few hours later (also dying in the process, temporarily).

well, I knew that this was the weakest link of my argumentation and i may have stretched it a bit. but we are not that far apart in our opinions. you too state that tolkien left it pretty ambiguous.
i still disagree that morgoth and all of his ilk were weakened by chosing their side.
it is only stated for morgoth that he lost a certain amount of his power, but still it is left open if he just choses not to use it. when finrod and huan fought sauron, the most powerful maiar among morgoth followers, there is no statement in my copy that he was somehow limited in anyway.

fingolfin even took on morgoth himself and i hope you won´t belittle this conflict cause of bias. so if the mightiest children of illuvatar could stand up to the most powerful ainur that only means that they too were very powerful.
(the light of varda was still bright in thier eyes, and so on)

but you can´t just put melian, olorin or bombadil in this category. melian for example, as far as i remember, it is just said that she gave up her form, but that her elven form limited her "power"? please cite that for me.
i think it is most obvious in bombadil with what i want to point out. gandalf said something like, sure we could give him the ring and it won´t affect him, he would defy mordor.

but it would not be in his character and therefore he might endanger his allies later. gandalf in an astrological way is mainly air (a follower of the valar connected to dreams) and secondly fire, meaning he can ignite the flame in the hearts of illuvatars children.

he is to guide humankind to take on a rightous, selfdefined path. him taking on a balrog is a singularity which leads to him becoming his truer self.
his despair while facing the balrog should alone be enough to show how aware he was of his odds.

the balrogs are fighting spirtits plain and simple. the "good" maiar opposing them in middleearth are not. the only sure bet on a "good" maiar facing them in combat would be enowe.
and your elve vs balrog comparison doesn´t work well either, just look at the kill/death ratio, even with the most powerful child of illuvatar in the competition

[SensorBoy]

melian for example, as far as i remember, it is just said that she gave up her form, but that her elven form limited her "power"? please cite that for me.




I get that, by association, from Tolkien's statements about the Istari (in Unfinished Tales?), that they were reduced in power (by Manwe) when they were installed in mortal forms. Whether that holds for Melian or not, Tolkien (again) doesn't say, but given the information (or lack thereof) we have, it's a decent bet.

Maiar are angelic entities that don't have bodies (although they can take on physical form), unless they take on a mortal shell. Melian is explicitly stated to have "given up her mortal form" IOT go West. Had she not had that mortal form, she could have just travelled West under her own power.

Again, we really can only guess, as Tolkien doesn't provide a lot of hard definitions. Maybe Melian was really uberpowerful and could have pasted whole armies of hostile Dwarves, but jobbed it so she could get a quicky swordpoint divorce from Mr "I-sold-my-daughter-for-a-nice-jewel" Thingol....

[SensorBoy]

the balrogs are fighting spirtits plain and simple.

No more than Sauron, Saruman or Radaghast were. They were miscellaneous Maiar (Tolkien sometimes specifies them as "Fire-oriented" Maiar, and other times just says they were Maiar), who threw in with Morgoth. Since Morgoth's motif was "Big 'n Scary", that's what kind of form they took. It's implied (perhaps explicitly stated, I can't remember) that they were "locked" in that form, due to the change to their nature generated by their evil.

Illuvatar didn't create them to be "fighting spirits", they became the big combat monsters on their own, and (it's implied) at the expense of some power or capabilities.

What we are left with is what is written. Gandalf the Grey KO's a Balrog 1:1. Tolkien specifically states that the Istari were significantly underpowered (deliberately) compared to their natural Maiar forms. Ergo, we can (reasonably) extrapolate that Olorin would likely have had a much easier time than Gandalf did.

[thenavigator]

I heard originally that there was some studio issues over ownership of rights. That's why Mizzter Jackson went to film King Kong.
Anyways......sign me up!!!!

[Grazzt]

I get that, by association, from Tolkien's statements about the Istari (in Unfinished Tales?), that they were reduced in power (by Manwe) when they were installed in mortal forms. Whether that holds for Melian or not, Tolkien (again) doesn't say, but given the information (or lack thereof) we have, it's a decent bet.

You know, I just finished reading the Silmarillion, and I could have sworn that there was a mention of Melian being weaker in mortal form than she was in Maiar form.

[DWEarhart]

Tolkien's estate says New Line owes them some money.

Lawsuit. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080211/ap_en_mo/tolkien_lawsuit)

[ultramandingo]

......."The suit, filed Monday, claims New Line was required to pay 7.5 percent of gross receipts to Tolkien's estate and other plaintiffs, who contend they only received an upfront payment of $62,500 for the three movies before production began."

.......... the tokien estate is gona get all gollum on their asses !

[GRANT!]

It's official. Del Toro is doing the Hobbit and that sequel movie (http://www.variety.com/VR1117984595.html).

I think Del Toro on the Hobbit is great. Not crazy about the additional movie but the who knows. It might work. Still another trip to Jackson's version of Middle Earth sounds fun.

[kmeyers]

It's official. Del Toro is doing the Hobbit and that sequel movie (http://www.variety.com/VR1117984595.html).

I think Del Toro on the Hobbit is great. Not crazy about the additional movie but the who knows. It might work. Still another trip to Jackson's version of Middle Earth sounds fun.

I think Del Toro's visual style might be even better than Jackson's would have been for The Hobbit.

This is great news.

[Christopher Cross Is God]

I think Del Toro's visual style might be even better than Jackson's would have been for The Hobbit.

This is great news.

The news articles on this are stating Del Toro will be the director, while Peter Jackson will be the executive producer.

I can see The Hobbit being better than the LOTR trilogy, due to Del Toro's style alone.

[kmeyers]

The news articles on this are stating Del Toro will be the director, while Peter Jackson will be the executive producer.

I can see The Hobbit being better than the LOTR trilogy, due to Del Toro's style alone.

Well, that's even better, because I'm not sure how into Tolkien Del Toro is. But we already know that Peter Jackson and his wife are SUPER Tolkien fans.

[gunz]

My question is (and this may have been answered before) they say del torro (who by the way fantastic choice, still would prefer Jackson, but, wow, just as good) will direct the hobbit and it's sequel. What will the sequel be? The Similiarion? because if so, F@#$ING AWESOME. most people won't enjoy it, but i might go to the theater with no pants............... (both nerdiest and creepiest comment ever thank you:cool: )

[kmeyers]

My question is (and this may have been answered before) they say del torro (who by the way fantastic choice, still would prefer Jackson, but, wow, just as good) will direct the hobbit and it's sequel. What will the sequel be? The Similiarion? because if so, F@#$ING AWESOME. most people won't enjoy it, but i might go to the theater with no pants............... (both nerdiest and creepiest comment ever thank you:cool: )

Well, from what I've heard, the sequel to the Hobbit will be a prequel to The first Lord of the Rings, Fellowship movie. Basically the defeat of Sauron, and not the Silmarillion.

[The Xenos]

Well, I'm torn. I almost don't care to see the Hobbit and more Tolkien films made. Yet if they were, I'd certainly see them, especially with Del Toro. Yet I'd rather see Del Toro work on his own projects and maybe another Hellboy.

Meanwhile, this makes me wonder what Jackson is up to. Makes me wonder about my theory that he's one of the directors possibly interested in adapting the anime Neon Genesis Evangelion. His Weta Workshop already worked on some preliminary designs, but nothing more has been said about production at all. That was years ago.

[kmeyers]

Well, I'm torn. I almost don't care to see the Hobbit and more Tolkien films made. Yet if they were, I'd certainly see them, especially with Del Toro. Yet I'd rather see Del Toro work on his own projects and maybe another Hellboy..

Hellboy II comes out this summer!

Looks awesome.

http://www.apple.com/trailers/universal/hellboy2thegoldenarmy/trailer2/

[kmeyers]

Well, I'm torn. I almost don't care to see the Hobbit and more Tolkien films made. Yet if they were, I'd certainly see them, especially with Del Toro. Yet I'd rather see Del Toro work on his own projects and maybe another Hellboy..

Hellboy II comes out this summer!

Looks awesome.

http://www.apple.com/trailers/universal/hellboy2thegoldenarmy/trailer2/

[kmeyers]

Well, I'm torn. I almost don't care to see the Hobbit and more Tolkien films made. Yet if they were, I'd certainly see them, especially with Del Toro. Yet I'd rather see Del Toro work on his own projects and maybe another Hellboy..

Hellboy II comes out this summer!

Looks awesome.

http://www.apple.com/trailers/universal/hellboy2thegoldenarmy/trailer2/

[beetheb]

Well, this is awesome. Del Toro is really set on establishing a solid continuity from these films to the LOTR Trilogy. Virtually everyone's coming back, actors and production crew alike.

Here's an interview with Del Toro that was posted yesterday. (http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2008/04/25/28747-guillermo-del-toro-chats-with-torn-about-the-hobbit-films/#more-28747)

How did this whole process get started?

Guillermo Del Toro: I met Peter (Jackson) a long time ago when we were planning on doing ‘Halo’ together, I really love how they have that setup in New Zealand, I call it ‘Hollywood the way God intended it’. New Zealand has all the technical advantages when doing a big movie and you are shooting it in paradise, both in terms of artistic freedom and commitment.

When ‘Halo’ didn’t happen, Peter and I stayed in contact on a regular basis, and last winter I started getting inklings that ‘The Hobbit’ may come this way, mainly from the studio. The first thing I said was that I would only be interested if Peter was involved and the (New Line Lawsuit) problem gets resolved. When that issue was resolved I got a call from Peter and we chatted, and it started from then, it was my Christmas gift!

Fans are all abuzz about ‘The Second Film’, can you tell some of your plans for it?

GDT: You know, I traveled to New Zealand just a little while ago, and one of the main reasons for going was to sit down and talk about the second film. ‘The Hobbit’, the book, is really one self-contained film, so for the second movie we sat down and worked it out. When we did this we got really excited because this second film is not a ‘tag on’, it’s not ‘filler’, it’s an integral part of telling the story of those 50 years of history lost in the narrative. There will be certain things that we will see from the first movie but from a different point of view, but it will feel like a volume, in the 5 volumes of the entire story. It will not feel like a bridge, I’ve been hearing it called ‘a bridge film’, it’s not, it’s an integral chapter of the story, and I think we’re all on the same page.

You will be moving down to New Zealand for 4 years, is that right?

GDT: Approximately, my whole family, but the first stages of design and R&D will be done with me going back and fourth from LA and New Zealand because there are a lot of things I need to put to bed before I finally move to New Zealand. I’m going much sooner than my relatives would like!

We will officially be doing a lot of prep on ‘The Hobbit’ this summer, there is so much to do, its amazing. Just the reforestation of The Shire, re planting all those trees and plants will take months, and we’re going to be as exact as possible.

Films like ‘Pan’s Labyrinth’ used a few studio sets to simulate outdoors, will you be doing the same for ‘The Hobbit’ or will you be making use of New Zealand’s wilderness like Peter did?

GDT: I think green screen photography is exactly like CGI, it is a tool, I don’t think it should be overused. Things like ‘Pan’s Labyrinth’ and ‘The Devil’s Backbone’ are incredibly dependent on location, we shot on location for more than half the time. Those locations can be enhanced by technology however, both digital and physical. What I would like to avoid is the recreation of the natural environments in CG, I don’t like doing that. The movie is essentially a journey movie, I think you need to use locations as much as possible.

You’ll be using WETA Digital for the effects?

GDT: Yes, the essential elements for keeping continuity are on track, in the last few weeks I’ve been chatting with a ton of people via email, phone, and in person from the previous films. People like Andy Serkis, Sir Ian McKellen, Howard Shore, John Howe, Gino Acevedo, Richard Taylor next week I’m meeting Alan Lee. I’m doing this to ensure that whatever we do we keep continuity with the other films, yes it’s a world that is slightly more golden at the beginning, a very innocent environment.

What I’m trying to do is keep the elements in place but allow you to feel a progression from ‘The Hobbit’ until ‘The Return of the King’. I believe ‘The Hobbit’ is a very crucial volume in The Lord of the Rings, it is a narrative that starts out very much in an innocent and golden way. It is permeated from England going through World War One, so there is a loss of innocence and a darker tone as the book and the film progresses. We’ll be doing that in the first film, taking you from a time of more purity to a darker reality throughout the film, but I think that is in the spirit of the book. All these guys, Alan Lee, John Howe, these guys are integral for us to map out that progress in the two movies, and allow you to completely blend in to the universe that is already in place. But this will be a progression, it should not feel at the start of the film that this is the same time (as the beginning of ‘Fellowship’). 50 years in Shire time, is not the same as 50 years in human time, if you think about how our world has changed in only 7 or 8 years, you can think of it as decades of turmoil, those 50 years in Middle-earth.

Do you have any roles cast?

GDT: Well, I had the most charming meeting with Sir Ian, and all bureaucracy pending, he’s on board, as is Andy Serkis. We will continue giving you progress reports as the occur. It is our intention that we will not lose any of the key elements.

What will differ from your films versus Peter’s?

The only thing I will be pushing for more in these films that the other three are full animatronics and animatronic creatures enhanced with CGI, as opposed to CGI creatures themselves. We really want to take the state-of-the-art animatronics and take a leap ten years into the future with the technology we will develop for the creatures in the movie. We have every intention to do for animatronics and special effects what the other films did for virtual reality.

Another thing people will notice, at the beginning of the film will be the palette, that will be slightly different, the world will be the same but it will be a more ‘golden’ world, a more wide-eyed world. But by no means will we depart from the canon, we will take the three previous films as canon. When I become part of a world that I love, such as this, I really come with a lot of enthusiasm and hard work, and we know we are recreating and creating a world that is part of the mythos of millions of people and we will approach it as passionately and respectfully as it needs to be taken.

Personally, I don't think this could have worked out any better.

[sschroeder]

What will hobbits have to do in this proposed sequel to The Hobbit, if anything? That seems like a potential problem to me.

[blackdragon6]

damn kmeyers i heard you the first time :p

[Tobias March]

So happy at this news.

I'm intrigued by the bridging film - the rise of Sauron, Aragorn tracking Gollum with Gandalf, or will the film of the Hobbit end before the Fifth Armies and that lead into a new film.

[The Shelf]

I'm willing to bet that the second film will be all about Gandalf, Elrond, and Aragorn overthrowing the Necromancer (Sauron) in Dol Guldur (southern tip of Mirkwood). We may also see Sauron stealing the last remaining Dwarven rings from the Dwarves, and perhaps they'll even throw in Aragorn and Gandalf's tracking of Gollum. If they can get Liv Tyler back, then expect even more luvvy duvvy garbage between her and Aragorn. Although, maybe they won't include that stuff since all the stuff between those two that took place in Two Towers is what should have gone in this movie.

[Jared]

I'm willing to bet that the second film will be all about Gandalf, Elrond, and Aragorn overthrowing the Necromancer (Sauron) in Dol Guldur (southern tip of Mirkwood). .

Was young(er) Aragorn there for that? That'd be interesting to see, I wonder if they'll recast. Given that he looks to be around 40 at age 80, he'd be what, in his late teens during the Hobbit period?

I really hope The Hobbit expands on the character of Bard. The guy shows up, brings down a freakin' dragon that's attacking his village, and then just kinda vanishes from the book.

[Zero Hunter]

With the guys attached to this I don't really have any worries that the 2nd film is going to be good. There is alot of talent there.

[The Shelf]

Was young(er) Aragorn there for that? That'd be interesting to see, I wonder if they'll recast. Given that he looks to be around 40 at age 80, he'd be what, in his late teens during the Hobbit period?

Ah good point. I can't remember if Aragorn helped overthrow Dol Guldur or not. But I think he'd be in his 20's or 30's after The Hobbit takes place. It's been too long since I've read any of the books. Does anyone remember how many years took place between Hobbit and LotR?

EDIT: Ah, nevermind. I've been skimming Wikipedia, and it seems Aragorn was never involved after all. He was probably too young anyway. In fact, it seems that Gandalf and Saruman led their assault on Dol Guldur at the same time as the battle against Smaug. That makes perfect sense now that I think about it because Gandalf was missing during a great portion of The Hobbit. Shoot, guys, if they intend to bring in Gandalf's spying on Sauron and all that (which apparently takes place before The Hobbit), then the story of The Hobbit could easily span both movies because a great deal of the stories would probably be told concurrently.

[Jmacq1]

I'm willing to bet that the second film will be all about Gandalf, Elrond, and Aragorn overthrowing the Necromancer (Sauron) in Dol Guldur (southern tip of Mirkwood). We may also see Sauron stealing the last remaining Dwarven rings from the Dwarves, and perhaps they'll even throw in Aragorn and Gandalf's tracking of Gollum. If they can get Liv Tyler back, then expect even more luvvy duvvy garbage between her and Aragorn. Although, maybe they won't include that stuff since all the stuff between those two that took place in Two Towers is what should have gone in this movie.

Heck, you could practically make the whole movie Aragorn's life. If they follow the book timelines, Aragorn was only 10 years old when "The Hobbit" took place (which sadly means he wasn't there for Dol Guldur). I suspect we'll see the meeting with Theoden (and Theoden's father) that Aragorn mentions in the extended edition of Two Towers. Maybe the bit from the books where Aragorn (under an alias) fought alongside Denethor as a younger man (and Denethor basically figured out who he was and was less-than-thrilled).

Either way I strongly suspect that the second film will probably be "anchored" on Aragorn and Gandalf, though there'll probably be multiple actors portraying him (though hopefully Viggo by the end of the film, at least).

PS: There's a lot of other potential crossover characters, too...the White Council alone would bring back Blanchett, Lee, and Weaving if they keep the original casting. Saruman as a "semi good guy" would be interesting to see.

[The Shelf]

Saruman as a "semi good guy" would be interesting to see.

"Semi" is right. We should get to see his fall into temptation and the beginnings of his own search for the ring. I hope they bring him into the story at least.

[Shellhead]

With the guys attached to this I don't really have any worries that the 2nd film is going to be good. There is alot of talent there.

I'm definitely optimistic. However, the weakest movie of the trilogy was The Two Towers, and that was also the one that was re-written the most. Jackson might be better at adapting existing material than creating new stuff.

[Paradox]

That's true. Especially noting that many consider The Two Towers to be the strongest of the three books (or two of the six, depending on how you're counting).

[Jared]

"Semi" is right. We should get to see his fall into temptation and the beginnings of his own search for the ring. I hope they bring him into the story at least.

So long as Christopher Lee is still ticking, they have to use him.

I would assume that Dol Goldor is where he finds the Palantir. So perhaps we'd see the very beginning of his fall, but I hope they don't overplay it. In Fellowship, he's a bad guy by the end of his first scene, it'll be interesting to see him as he once was.

[Paradox]

My memories vague, but I think he found the Palantir when he took over Orthanc in Isengard.

[The Shelf]

*double-post*

[The Shelf]

My memories vague, but I think he found the Palantir when he took over Orthanc in Isengard.

I think you're right, but they screwed up some of Saruman's story already by having him create the Uruk-hai instead of the orc-men hybrids, and then there's his death as well. So I wouldn't put it past them to have him discover the Palantir in Dol Guldur. And, honestly, I actually wouldn't mind that one little change because it shouldn't really affect anything (unlike the orc-men thing and his death -- I don't care about losing Bill Ferny, but where's my sacking of the Shire, dangit?!).

[Jmacq1]

I think you're right, but they screwed up some of Saruman's story already by having him create the Uruk-hai instead of the orc-men hybrids, and then there's his death as well. So I wouldn't put it past them to have him discover the Palantir in Dol Guldur. And, honestly, I actually wouldn't mind that one little change because it shouldn't really affect anything (unlike the orc-men thing and his death -- I don't care about losing Bill Ferny, but where's my sacking of the Shire, dangit?!).

RotK already had a half-dozen endings. Did we really need a half-dozen more? :tongue: