View Full Version : The 'real' Batman is in Brave and the Bold
In the late 60s, Neal Adams started drawing Batman in Brave and the Bold, turning the campy character (at the time) into a creature of the night.
Considering how Batman has been mishandled in his own title for decades, I was pleasantly surprised by the recent Brave and the Bold storyline with the Luck Lords.
Suddenly, I was reading about my Batman again; intelligent, resourceful, able to overcome overwelming odds with a slight grin on his face.
DC, please get Mark Waid on a Batman book, pronto. Have Ryan Sook draw it, and you won't need any gimmicks... it'll sell.
Cayman
11-30-2007, 08:50 AM
Have Ryan Sook draw it, and you won't need any gimmicks... it'll sell.
It'll never come out. :(
Captain Jim
12-01-2007, 06:04 AM
In the late 60s, Neal Adams started drawing Batman in Brave and the Bold, turning the campy character (at the time) into a creature of the night.
Neal certainly drew a very nice Batman. But I don't think you can give him the primary credit for turning Batman into a "creature of the night." That credit goes primarily to Julie Schwartz, who mandated that decision editorially in Batman and Detective, and to a lesser extent, Denny O'Neil and Frank Robbins, who were the primary scripters in those books.
Considering how Batman has been mishandled in his own title for decades,
Decades? Really? I haven't been thrilled to death with things the last few years, but up to then I've been pretty satisfied. A little too heavy on the "bat-jerk" aspects from time to time perhaps, but overall I can't complain.
I was pleasantly surprised by the recent Brave and the Bold storyline with the Luck Lords.
Suddenly, I was reading about my Batman again; intelligent, resourceful, able to overcome overwelming odds with a slight grin on his face.
DC, please get Mark Waid on a Batman book, pronto. Have Ryan Sook draw it, and you won't need any gimmicks... it'll sell.
I read that initial arc and personally felt it was just okay (which is my usual reaction to Waid's writing). I know there are people who feel otherwise, but I've never been able to get overly excited about his stuff--no matter what he was writing. And personally, cosmic menaces are not where I think Batman works best.
In any case, since Waid has now become editor at another company and is greatly limiting his writing (it looks like he might even be leaving Flash), I doubt that this scenario is likely to happen anytime in the near future.
That credit goes primarily to Julie Schwartz, who mandated that decision editorially in Batman and Detective
I've read in interviews that Schwartz was not going to give Adams the major Batman titles until positive fan response to Brave and the Bold started trickling in. I agree that Denny O'Neil also deserves credit for shifting the character in a new direction, his collaboration with Neal was perfect.
Looking back on the main title over the last few decades, we have the uneven 1980s (after Conway left and Don Newton passed away), the badly drawn 1990s (including Norm Bregfoyle and Kelley Jones, who style was a bit too much), the crappy Bane saga, and the lame gimmicks of the last few years (Bruce Wayne: Fugitive, Contagion, the earthquake disaster, and so on). The Loeb/Lee run was OK, but quickly forgotten (it seems).
I let the 'cosmic menace' aspect of the Waid story slide because I found myself thoroughly entertained. It felt like an 'old school' tale, which is probably why it isn't regarded highly: today's reader demands talking heads and decompression, it appears.
I agree that my 'dream team' will never happen, which is unfortunate.
I guess I'll amend this post to ask: What would you consider a perfect current creative team to tackle Batman?
"What would you consider a perfect current creative team to tackle Batman?"
It is kind of obvious jump as it has been done before, but after reading some of Brian Bendis and Alex Maleev's run on Daredevil, I have to think they could do some interesting Batman stories.
Ilash
12-05-2007, 04:26 PM
Well, I've been loving Morrison's Batman since the issue after the, in my honest opinion, awful Joker prose issue and while Dini hasn't lived up to his work the brilliance of the animated series, Detective has been a very solid read.
Now, would Mark Waid be good for Batman? Yes, definitely. Thing is though that Mark Waid would be a good fit for any DC superhero. He really understands these characters like no other current writer.
Ilash
12-05-2007, 04:34 PM
Looking back on the main title over the last few decades, we have the uneven 1980s (after Conway left and Don Newton passed away), the badly drawn 1990s (including Norm Bregfoyle and Kelley Jones, who style was a bit too much), the crappy Bane saga, and the lame gimmicks of the last few years (Bruce Wayne: Fugitive, Contagion, the earthquake disaster, and so on). The Loeb/Lee run was OK, but quickly forgotten (it seems).
Oh I don't know... First Breyfogle is one of the best Batman artists ever and looking at how much his art has improved over the years (or at least the more solid production has removed much of the scratchiness of his art), I would love to see him drawing a Batman book again. Kelley Jones is only a good fit for specific types of stories but Alan Grant's Batman did very much play to his strengths.
Ending aside, I really liked Loeb and Lee's take on Batman. Rucka and Brubaker both had very good runs on Detective and Batman. And No Man's Land seems like a good read but I've only read parts of it (something I really should fix) so I could be wrong. Add to all that Dixon's really good run on Detective with Graham Nolan and I really don't can't agree with your assessment of Batman in the 90s, early 2000s.
I agree I'm being a bit harsh on several creative teams, and generalizing a bit too much. Whatever the time period, there tend to be good Batman tales and clunkers as well.
I think Bendis and Maleev would produce a very interesting take, but I'm not sure DC upper management would be comfortable with it.
It seems that Marc Guggenheim (hopefully spelled correctly <g>) and Dan Slott are two very interesting writers working today. I dunno if they'd be a good fit for Bats...
Rabid Trekkie
12-06-2007, 11:38 PM
Oh I don't know... First Breyfogle is one of the best Batman artists ever and looking at how much his art has improved over the years (or at least the more solid production has removed much of the scratchiness of his art), I would love to see him drawing a Batman book again. Kelley Jones is only a good fit for specific types of stories but Alan Grant's Batman did very much play to his strengths.
Ending aside, I really liked Loeb and Lee's take on Batman. Rucka and Brubaker both had very good runs on Detective and Batman. And No Man's Land seems like a good read but I've only read parts of it (something I really should fix) so I could be wrong. Add to all that Dixon's really good run on Detective with Graham Nolan and I really don't can't agree with your assessment of Batman in the 90s, early 2000s.
For No Man's Land I suggest reading the novelization by Greg Rucka. The second best Batman prose work I've had the benefit to read and Joker is, in my humble opinion, at a consistantly great level only realized in DC animated.
Babylon23
12-07-2007, 06:55 AM
Kelley Jones is only a good fit for specific types of stories but Alan Grant's Batman did very much play to his strengths.
It was Moench, not Grant, who wrote Batman during Jones' run. Personally, I loved that period of Batman (post-Knightquest).
As for Waid/Perez, they're a creative pairing that I'd be happy to see on just about any book. I've been impressed by their handling of Batman. PLacing the character outside of his elment and int a more superhero/sci-fi setting reminds me of Barr's handling of the Bats in Outsiders, which is a good thing.
Ilash
12-07-2007, 08:00 AM
For No Man's Land I suggest reading the novelization by Greg Rucka. The second best Batman prose work I've had the benefit to read and Joker is, in my humble opinion, at a consistantly great level only realized in DC animated.
Yeah but I just have next to no interest in reading superhero novels. They work better in visual mediums.
I never realy liked Moench's take on Batman, which is weird because his Moon Knight was interesting.
Hmm, come to think of it, Bill Sienkiewicz (spelled incorrectly, I'm sure <g>) would be a pretty cool choice for Batman artist....
Ilash
12-07-2007, 08:02 AM
It was Moench, not Grant, who wrote Batman during Jones' run. Personally, I loved that period of Batman (post-Knightquest).
.
Ah yes, you're right. I stand corrected. And yeah, I liked it too (Dixon was on Detective then, right?).
Captain Jim
12-07-2007, 07:41 PM
Yes, Moench was on Batman, Dixon on Detective and Grant on Shadow of the Bat.
geejtopia
12-07-2007, 08:00 PM
I loved the Moench/Jones run in the 90's.
For me it's always a treat when Matt Wagner writes and draws Batman.
I believe Sienkiewicz did some art in Batman: Black and White.
Moving around some comics last night, I had forgotten or never realized that Alex Maleev did an issue of Detective (#730) during No Man's Land.
I opened it up and checked it out, his style has really developed quite a bit in the past few years.
Captain Jim
12-09-2007, 12:54 PM
Moving around some comics last night, I had forgotten or never realized that Alex Maleev did an issue of Detective (#730) during No Man's Land.
I opened it up and checked it out, his style has really developed quite a bit in the past few years.
He actually did the whole first arc, IIRC.
Babylon23
12-09-2007, 08:04 PM
I believe Sienkiewicz did some art in Batman: Black and White.
Sienkiewicz has done bits and pieces of Batman work over the years. IIRC, he inked Aparo on some issues during the Moench/Jones period.
IMHO, Batman is not reaching its potential as a title.
Now, of course, many folk enjoy what Morrisson and Dini have been doing, which is swell.
I'm just standing on my rickety soap box for a minute or two...
I think ads released at the time of Batman Year One summed up the character perfectly: a cunning fighter, the world's greatest detective.
My Batman (which may not be yours, of course) is about solving mysteries and fantastic crimes. He should be seen using CSI inspired techniques (with a utility belt that is actually used) as well as his deductive abilities to determine suspects and be at the scene of the next crime before it happens (as described wonderfully by Stephen King in Batman 400).
His use of violence should be restrained, relying more on suggestion and intimidation. He should face common thugs as well as diabolical costumed villains, using his wits and indomitable will to escape from flamboyant traps and predicaments.
He should have romantic interests and friends that assist him in his quest for justice.
This is not the guy running around All Star Batman or today's books, which is too bad.
I miss him.
Sienkiewicz has done bits and pieces of Batman work over the years. IIRC, he inked Aparo on some issues during the Moench/Jones period.
I think that was around issue 533 of Batman - during Contagion.
He not only drew the cover to Batman 400, but also pencilled about 6 pages as well. Other artists you might not expect to find inside are Brian Bolland - who drew the final chapter, Joe Kubert, and Art Adams.
I also think Sienkiewicz was initially slated to draw the storyline that occupied Detective 801-812 (or thereabouts). In fact, if it was him, then he did finish some of the artwork since I recall seeing some of the pages posted prior to the story's release.
Rabid Trekkie
12-10-2007, 09:26 PM
IMHO, Batman is not reaching its potential as a title.
Now, of course, many folk enjoy what Morrisson and Dini have been doing, which is swell.
I'm just standing on my rickety soap box for a minute or two...
I think ads released at the time of Batman Year One summed up the character perfectly: a cunning fighter, the world's greatest detective.
My Batman (which may not be yours, of course) is about solving mysteries and fantastic crimes. He should be seen using CSI inspired techniques (with a utility belt that is actually used) as well as his deductive abilities to determine suspects and be at the scene of the next crime before it happens (as described wonderfully by Stephen King in Batman 400).
His use of violence should be restrained, relying more on suggestion and intimidation. He should face common thugs as well as diabolical costumed villains, using his wits and indomitable will to escape from flamboyant traps and predicaments.
He should have romantic interests and friends that assist him in his quest for justice.
This is not the guy running around All Star Batman or today's books, which is too bad.
I miss him.
While I can agree with you somewhat, that one about more romantic interests sounds more like Bond than Batman.
Haven't read Morrison's Batman yet (I only get trades and haven't had enough money for the hardback of B & Son, hoping for Christmas though) but the first collection of Dini had some detective work, and one of my favorite interrogation scenes ever.
Of course I prefer my Batman more noirish, like in Long Halloween or City of Crime. Funnily enough though I didn't like Broken City even though it was probably the most noir of any Bat story, of course in my opinion he seemed more like a clone of Mike Hammer than Batman. But when I really need my definitive Batman, I plug in my BTAS and Justice League DVDs.
I mentioned romantic interest because I found Silver St Cloud a really interesting character, back in the day. The strain of their relationship really spiced up the stories she appeared in.
As a matter of fact, the Englehart/Rogers run is hailed by many (including myself) as perhaps the finest ever. Looking at the issues closely, Steve used elements that make the character great, simply updated. Rogers provided clean and interesting art, with a nice sense of design and style.
My point is, the Batman title shouldn't have to rely on dumb gimmicks to be successful; put a good writer paired with a talented artist on the title, and it'll sell gangbusters.
Jeff Cope
12-11-2007, 05:35 PM
His use of violence should be restrained, relying more on suggestion and intimidation.
I remember a quote from Kelley Jones back in the 90s (funny the things that stick in your head, eh?) where he said something to the effect of, "If Batman has to throw a punch, he's failed."
Jeff
I haven't collected the main titles regularly since about Cataclysm. Because I didn't like any of the major crossover stories following Knightfall I would with increasing regularity buy the titles only sporadically throughout the late 90's. I'd buy the issues that came between the crossovers - usually one or two part stories that DC seemed to regard as filler - and have to stop when the next 20 part storyline began. Even though DC was far more interested in pushing Contagion, Cataclysm, etc, it was the one shot issues that I liked the best.
I've tried getting into Batman again after so long an absence and I've noticed the same thing. I'll play it safe and pick a storyline that I'm sure almost everyone on here disliked as my example: Hush Returns. Now, this story was so awful that the author didn't even bother writing an ending for it. If you read issues 50-whatever the last issue was it's obvious why it was cancelled. But in between the Hush stories, there was a standalone Mr Freeze tale (issue 59 I think) written by someone other than the regular writer. No fanfare, no big name artist or characters (other than Batman) - just a standalone story that was one of the best Batman stories I've read this decade. The same was true for Legends of the Dark Knight - while the main titles were doing Leslie Thompkins: Child Killer or whatever, it seemed that because this title was being ignored (DC may have had plans to cancel the series at this point) we were getting some pretty good stories - ie. the three-parter that preceeded issue 200.
I guess in short, it seems that if DC isn't following what you're doing there are some writers who will be able to write some really good Batman stories, but if you're working on the main titles, sooner or later they'll want to increase sales and start asking why Morrison or Dini hasn't yet written that 10 part story that reveals the Joker is really Batman's father.
Good call. I wonder how many really talented writers and/or artists aren't getting their chance because editors are looking for 'safe' creative teams.
Laughing Mask
12-19-2007, 06:09 PM
yes brave & the bold is a good read.
i bought it today.
Brave and the Bold is a book the market needs: a rotating cast, which alows DC to produce stories showcasing less popular characters.
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