Beast, Dark Beast, and Emma Frost

[grampa doowop]

Has Beast ever found out that Emma helped "repair" the fractured mind of Dark Beast upon his entry into our reality? Something tells me that that could make for an interesting conversation in the Astonishing book. I've only read bits and pieces of "Endangered Species," and do know that Hank and Dark Beast forged a temporary alliance, but I assume that it didn't end well?

I just think it's interesting that out of all the X-Men that Emma's had to interact with during her affiliation with them (Lobdell's Generation X, Morrison's New X-Men, Claremont's X-Treme, and now Whedon's Astonishing) she's received nothing but friction from most of her teammates (Banshee, Jubilee, M, Kitty, Storm, Rachel), but Hank has (on several occasions as I recall) been shown in various panels/stories to be very cordial to Emma.

I wonder if this piece of information came to light, how he'd feel. After all this time, you'd think she'd have maybe felt compelled to bring it up. Nah, that'd be too...morally right!

[frog]

Has Beast ever found out that Emma helped "repair" the fractured mind of Dark Beast upon his entry into our reality? Something tells me that that could make for an interesting conversation in the Astonishing book. I've only read bits and pieces of "Endangered Species," and do know that Hank and Dark Beast forged a temporary alliance, but I assume that it didn't end well?

I just think it's interesting that out of all the X-Men that Emma's had to interact with during her affiliation with them (Lobdell's Generation X, Morrison's New X-Men, Claremont's X-Treme, and now Whedon's Astonishing) she's received nothing but friction from most of her teammates (Banshee, Jubilee, M, Kitty, Storm, Rachel), but Hank has (on several occasions as I recall) been shown in various panels/stories to be very cordial to Emma.

I wonder if this piece of information came to light, how he'd feel. After all this time, you'd think she'd have maybe felt compelled to bring it up. Nah, that'd be too...morally right!

Beast may very well know already. He's just usually more laid back and accepting of things than the other X-Men.

And no, working with Dark Beast did not go well - naturally!

[chemicalx]

Would anyone really care though? I mean compared with some of the other stuff Emma has done in the past i would think that would be the least thing to worry about

[Pro]

Has Beast ever found out that Emma helped "repair" the fractured mind of Dark Beast upon his entry into our reality?

Didn't Dark Beast enter the 616 timeline some 20 years ago? How old IS Emma?!

[frog]

Didn't Dark Beast enter the 616 timeline some 20 years ago? How old IS Emma?!

I don't know. We need Beast - the poster, not the character - to weigh in because I'm sure he knows!

[Pro]

I don't know. We need Beast - the poster, not the character - to weigh in because I'm sure he knows!

From wiki:

With the end of the Age of Apocalypse, the Dark Beast was able to escape into Earth-616 through the M'Kraan Crystal. He was believed to have died due to Quicksilver's interference in his set trajectory. However, the only damage was that he landed twenty years in the past in the Morlock Tunnels. Upon his arrival he was met by a young Emma Frost, who helped him to regain some of his scattered memories. The Dark Beast was responsible for the creation of the Morlocks.

[streator]

From wiki:

With the end of the Age of Apocalypse, the Dark Beast was able to escape into Earth-616 through the M'Kraan Crystal. He was believed to have died due to Quicksilver's interference in his set trajectory. However, the only damage was that he landed twenty years in the past in the Morlock Tunnels. Upon his arrival he was met by a young Emma Frost, who helped him to regain some of his scattered memories. The Dark Beast was responsible for the creation of the Morlocks.

generation x -1 is the issue that explains this stuff.

http://www.uncannyxmen.net/covers/genx/genx-1.jpg

[Rubicant]

I just remembered Generation X# -1. From the narration, Emma is referred to as "sweet 16 and never been kissed". The question on her age can be answered if anyone knows how many years passed between Dark Beast arriving in the 616 reality and his meeting with Emma Frost. From what I recall of this issue, not many, so I'd say she's in her early to mid-30s.

[grampa doowop]

Didn't Dark Beast enter the 616 timeline some 20 years ago? How old IS Emma?!

See, this has always puzzled me too. Different facets of her early appearances always made me think that she was at least early 40s if not late 30s.

1. When Emma was first introduced, John Byrne seemed to draw her with a pointed chin suggesting a crone or witch like appearance. Not necessarily making her an older woman, but as comics are a static visual medium, you have limited tools to work with. I always took that as Claremont/Byrne's way of establishing Emma as an older woman. But we could chalk that up to Byrne's artistic interpretation.

2. She apparently has some educational degree or background (never read her ongoing so don't know what it touched on), as she started the Massachusetts Academy. And regardless of it being a front for the Hellions, I believe it was always shown as a legitimate school. She was running the school during the X-Men's first encounters with her, which I assume she founded after obtaining said degree.

3. She has always been paired romantically before Cyclops with men around that age bracket. Most especially Sebastian Shaw and then later, after her reformation, Banshee. Not that she couldn't have a thing for older men.

4. She amassed a somewhat substantial business empire with Frost Enterprises (?). Not that you can't be a young businessman, and it has been shown that she obtained investment advice telepathically to amass her wealth. This was shown in Generation X -1, the same issue where...

5. As you said, 20 years ago Marvel U. time, they revealed that she helped put Dark Beast's fractured mind back together. And yes I believe this is stated canon, that Dark Beast, Sugar Man, and Holocaust (?) all came over from AoA 20 years ago in Marvel time.

This was another reason I "fought" the Scott/Emma romance initially. Again, not that Scott coudn't have a thing for older women, but it seemed too convenient to use the romance as a way to "de-age" Emma for new readers. Again, not that she had to be de-aged in order for the romance to play out. She herself has admitted to plastic surgery and in the case of the telepathic affair, it wouldn't matter what she looked like in reality, she could become whatever Scott wanted.

Morrison also had one of the Stepford Cuckoos insult Emma I believe about her age during his run. And she said something like "I'm not a day over 27," but I don't think that was meant to be taken literally. I took it as a sarcastic retort to the comment.

[Beast]

I don't know. We need Beast - the poster, not the character - to weigh in because I'm sure he knows!
She'd be around 39. Since Dark Beast's arrival was 20 years before the Age of Apocalypse.

16 + 20 = 36. Then at a rate of roughly 1:4 for Marvel Time after that, 1994 - 2007 = 13 / 4 = 3.

Which of course means that Dark Beast is roughly around 50 years old at this point.

[Pro]

Morrison also had one of the Stepford Cuckoos insult Emma I believe about her age during his run. And she said something like "I'm not a day over 27," but I don't think that was meant to be taken literally. I took it as a sarcastic retort to the comment.

Yea that's kinda how i interpreted it as well, more like :"I don't look like a day over 27" rather than the words she actually used because i really can't see her as a 27 year old given all the history she had before hooking up with Cyclops. I always assumed she was about 30-35 when the Hellfire Club was first introduced. Which isn't that old (i'm 35 so shut up!) but older than the x-men themselves were at the time.

[Beast]

Yea that's kinda how i interpreted it as well, more like :"I don't look like a day over 27" rather than the words she actually used because i really can't see her as a 27 year old given all the history she had before hooking up with Cyclops. I always assumed she was about 30-35 when the Hellfire Club was first introduced. Which isn't that old (i'm 35 so shut up!) but older than the x-men themselves were at the time.
That was the intent at the time, certainly. Both writer and artist have confirmed that. That Emma and the rest of the Hellfire Club were older and more experienced with their powers than the X-Men.

[Rubicant]

2. She apparently has some educational degree or background (never read her ongoing so don't know what it touched on), as she started the Massachusetts Academy. And regardless of it being a front for the Hellions, I believe it was always shown as a legitimate school. She was running the school during the X-Men's first encounters with her, which I assume she founded after obtaining said degree.


5. As you said, 20 years ago Marvel U. time, they revealed that she helped put Dark Beast's fractured mind back together. And yes I believe this is stated canon, that Dark Beast, Sugar Man, and Holocaust (?) all came over from AoA 20 years ago in Marvel time.

Morrison also had one of the Stepford Cuckoos insult Emma I believe about her age during his run. And she said something like "I'm not a day over 27," but I don't think that was meant to be taken literally. I took it as a sarcastic retort to the comment.


2. It was most certainly a legitimate school, as Janet vanDyne mentioned in New Mutants #38 that it was one of the most prestigious schools in Massachusetts and almost attended it herself.

5. Holocaust arrived in the 616 at the exact moment he left AOA (forgot the designation). Dark Beast was the retconned explanation for the Morlocks and Sugar Man was the retconned reason for the Genoshan mutate bonding process. Both were trying to avoid the Sinister of the 616.

Oh, and I took Emma's "27" comment the same way you're supposed to take Patsy on Ab Fab saying she's 42 and using a passport photo from the 1960s.

[ExodusCloak]

1. When Emma was first introduced, John Byrne seemed to draw her with a pointed chin suggesting a crone or witch like appearance. Not necessarily making her an older woman, but as comics are a static visual medium, you have limited tools to work with. I always took that as Claremont/Byrne's way of establishing Emma as an older woman. But we could chalk that up to Byrne's artistic interpretation.

All Evil female characters were drawn as crones back then. Even possessed heroines were drawn as crones.(Wanda) Back then all evil women were butt ugly.


5. As you said, 20 years ago Marvel U. time, they revealed that she helped put Dark Beast's fractured mind back together. And yes I believe this is stated canon, that Dark Beast, Sugar Man, and Holocaust (?) all came over from AoA 20 years ago in Marvel time.



A Dark Beast with amnesia wondered around for an unknown period of time after he landed in the 616 universe before he met Emma. So we cannot know how much time passed since it was never stated in the Gen X issue. So for all we know he could have wondered around for 10 years with amnesia. I also believe that Jean Greys tombstone displayed the year of her birth and death IRRC so either way dates have been retconned before.
That 20 years ago was never stated in the Gen X -1 issue. We know that Dark Beast entered 616 20 years ago thanks to the Legion arc but we don't know how long it took him to wonder into Emma due to his amnesia.

Siryn was born before Banshee joined interpol. Banshee met Emma for the first time at the end of his 10 year career during an exchange programme. Emma was stated to be 16 then Syrin would have been turning 10 or would have been 10. Syrin is somewhere in her 20's...10+16 = 26 add 3-4 years just because we can and she'd be 29/30 now.

In the Emma Frost series Emma who was 15 and younger saw Xaviers X-Men appear on T.V for the first time.

[DDM]

All Evil female characters were drawn as crones back then. Even possessed heroines were drawn as crones.(Wanda) Back then all evil women were butt ugly.

However, Emma Frost is not a crone & never was represented as a crone. She was depicted as externally beautiful & physically perfect in every way as a masque to hide her own true evil nature (originally, Claremont had intended for Emma Frost to have natural ashe blonde hair, perfect beautfiul face & body without the plastic surgery presented by Morrison). The same goes for Selene.

Emma Frost may have been older than the X-Men, but not much older say a 5 year age difference between herself than Phoenix & Storm.

Furthermore, to be a billionaire by her 30's is an extraordinary feet in itself.

[worstblogever]

Furthermore, to be a billionaire by her 30's is an extraordinary feet in itself.

Not when you're stealing stock tips out of the heads of inside traders when you're in your teens. Then it's just being resourceful. I gave Emma serious props for thinking of that at her age.

[Swashbuckler]

However, Emma Frost is not a crone & never was represented as a crone. She was depicted as externally beautiful & physically perfect in every way as a masque to hide her own true evil nature (originally, Claremont had intended for Emma Frost to have natural ashe blonde hair, perfect beautfiul face & body without the plastic surgery presented by Morrison). The same goes for Selene.

Emma Frost may have been older than the X-Men, but not much older say a 5 year age difference between herself than Phoenix & Storm.

Furthermore, to be a billionaire by her 30's is an extraordinary feet in itself.

Not when she earned all her money through stealing thoughts and commiting crimes. She's an evil whench who'd be a tramped up whore without her powers. Agewise I place her around the same age as Cyclops. It's too much to get detailed when it comes to character's ages and they really don't matter in the long run. I hate when people argue about it.

[Kage Kisaragi]

i thought i remembered a issue of New X-Men or something related to New X-Men, maybe Academy X, where Emma scolds who I assume were the x-teens that she is only 27 or 28.

[Beast]

i thought i remembered a issue of New X-Men or something related to New X-Men, maybe Academy X, where Emma scolds who I assume were the x-teens that she is only 27 or 28.
It's New X-Men. And it wasn't meant to be taken as fact.

[Phil Hunn]

It's New X-Men. And it wasn't meant to be taken as fact.

She's only 27, you ungrateful wretches!

Her plastic surgeon said so :p

[Beast]

She's only 27, you ungrateful wretches!

Her plastic surgeon said so :p
Maybe 27 in Dog years. :p

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Yes..Dark Beast arrived 20 years in the past when he came through the M'Kraan and set up the foundation of the Morlocks. That's why Marrow is always in such awe around him. "The First One".

[xmanson]

In the Emma Frost series Emma who was 15 and younger saw Xaviers X-Men appear on T.V for the first time.

Which didn't make much sense, if that was really the case she would be running the Mass Academy when she was around 20-21, and I really don't believe that was the intent when she was created.

I'm guessin she's in her early 40's now.

[Omega Alpha]

Yea that's kinda how i interpreted it as well, more like :"I don't look like a day over 27" rather than the words she actually used because i really can't see her as a 27 year old given all the history she had before hooking up with Cyclops. I always assumed she was about 30-35 when the Hellfire Club was first introduced. Which isn't that old (i'm 35 so shut up!) but older than the x-men themselves were at the time.

Or Dark Beast didn't entered the timeline 20 years ago, in the same way Reed Richards and Ben Grimm did not went to WWII with Nick Fury.

Which didn't make much sense, if that was really the case she would be running the Mass Academy when she was around 20-21, and I really don't believe that was the intent when she was created.


She was running the Academy with 20-24 years old. And the intent at the time she was created is completely irrelevant. If Claremont's abandoned origins were relevant, Wolverine wouldn't be a mutant, but rather a wolf turned human by the High Evolutionary.

[Slung]

All Evil female characters were drawn as crones back then. Even possessed heroines were drawn as crones.(Wanda) Back then all evil women were butt ugly.




A Dark Beast with amnesia wondered around for an unknown period of time after he landed in the 616 universe before he met Emma. So we cannot know how much time passed since it was never stated in the Gen X issue. So for all we know he could have wondered around for 10 years with amnesia. I also believe that Jean Greys tombstone displayed the year of her birth and death IRRC so either way dates have been retconned before.
That 20 years ago was never stated in the Gen X -1 issue. We know that Dark Beast entered 616 20 years ago thanks to the Legion arc but we don't know how long it took him to wonder into Emma due to his amnesia.

Siryn was born before Banshee joined interpol. Banshee met Emma for the first time at the end of his 10 year career during an exchange programme. Emma was stated to be 16 then Syrin would have been turning 10 or would have been 10. Syrin is somewhere in her 20's...10+16 = 26 add 3-4 years just because we can and she'd be 29/30 now.

In the Emma Frost series Emma who was 15 and younger saw Xaviers X-Men appear on T.V for the first time.
No, it has been implied that Siryn was born not long before Banshee's move to New York City. There is nothing stating that Siryn was 10 (I'm pretty sure, she was a toddler) when he went to New York. He left the service shortly after the death of Maeve (which was shortly after the birth of Theresa). And Dark Beast hadn't been around the sewers for that long either. Theresa is roughly 23-24 (being the oldest in X-Force) and even if we stretched it that she was four when Shawn left for his short leave in NYC, that would still make it 20 years ago that he met 16 year old Emma. Also, Byrne and Claremont have both stated that Emma was older than the other X-Men and lines from her appearances support that. Emma is over 36 for sure.


She was running the Academy with 20-24 years old. And the intent at the time she was created is completely irrelevant. If Claremont's abandoned origins were relevant, Wolverine wouldn't be a mutant, but rather a wolf turned human by the High Evolutionary.
That was Len Wein that wanted Wolverine to be a mutated Wolf, NOT CC.

[jarrod]

That was Len Wein that wanted Wolverine to be a mutated Wolf, NOT CC.
It was also never shown on panel, while Emma was pretty clearly more Xaiver or Shaw's peer age wise than Scott or Ororo. Emma being in her 20s now is a retcon pure and simple, and a relatively recent one at that... comparaing Wein's intended Wolverine origin to it is disingenious at the very best. :/

[Slung]

It was also never shown on panel, while Emma was pretty clearly more Xaiver or Shaw's peer age wise than Scott or Ororo. Emma being in her 20s now is a retcon pure and simple, and a relatively recent one at that... comparaing Wein's intended Wolverine origin to it is disingenious at the very best. :/

Wait, are you telling me? I wasn't using Wein's intention to justify anything. Just pointing out it was Wein and not Claremont whose idea never saw fruition.

Emma's not a day younger than 38 in my book.

[Omega Alpha]

It was also never shown on panel, while Emma was pretty clearly more Xaiver or Shaw's peer age wise than Scott or Ororo. Emma being in her 20s now is a retcon pure and simple, and a relatively recent one at that... comparaing Wein's intended Wolverine origin to it is disingenious at the very best. :/

Nope, it's the same thing. And you actually have hints on panel about the Wolverine thing: on Uncanny #100, Wolverine is not recognized as a mutant by the Sentinels, for example.

Anyway, regardless of it is a retcon or not (which is debatable, since you never had her age mentioned on-panel), it is a fact that Emma isn't as old as Xavier, Magneto, Shaw, etc, and it's irrelevant what the idea was originally.

[Slung]

Nope, it's the same thing. And you actually have hints on panel about the Wolverine thing: on Uncanny #100, Wolverine is not recognized as a mutant by the Sentinels, for example.

Anyway, regardless of it is a retcon or not (which is debatable, since you never had her age mentioned on-panel), it is a fact that Emma isn't as old as Xavier, Magneto, Shaw, etc, and it's irrelevant what the idea was originally.

Except for that pesky Generation X -1 story, the panels where Emma is calling all of the X-Men young people, and Shaw telling Emma that though stuck in Storm's body she traded her own for one of youth and beauty.

[jarrod]

Nope, it's the same thing. And you actually have hints on panel about the Wolverine thing: on Uncanny #100, Wolverine is not recognized as a mutant by the Sentinels, for example.
Except that, in itself, doesn't imply Wein's "evolved Wolverine" origin. Besides, a "single" throwaway reference isn't quite on level with Emma's solid 2 decades of being portrayed as an "older" woman.



Anyway, regardless of it is a retcon or not (which is debatable, since you never had her age mentioned on-panel)
We have widespread milestones and references for the character's first two on panel decades, nevermind specific timeline events like the contested Dark Beast incident. We might not have a direct age laid down until Morrison, but c'mon... this is a big fat retcon if we've ever seen one. It's like saying Sage as Xaiver's spy isn't a retcon because it was never explicitly stated she wasn't his spy on panel or some nonsense. Try harder.


it is a fact that Emma isn't as old as Xavier, Magneto, Shaw, etc, and it's irrelevant what the idea was originally.
I dunno... as evidenced in the thread, it seems quite debatable I'd say. ;)

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Emma has been draw younger since Gen X got popular but back in the old days, she looked like she could be Storm or Jean's mother in age.

[Dagger]

I always thought of Emma being the Samantha of the group. Slightly older, and much sluttier than the rest of the girls. I'm eagerly awaiting to when she thinks she's beginning menopause, and has sex with some dried out old fart, and then has her period and runs out screaming and shouting!

[Omega Alpha]

Emma has been draw younger since Gen X got popular but back in the old days, she looked like she could be Storm or Jean's mother in age.

Yep, it didn't really begun with Morrison.

And yes, it's a fact Emma isn't as old as Shaw, Wolverine, etc. It was clearly shown in Morrison's run, Brubaker did it too in Deadly Genesis, etc. It's not a coincidence that her haters are usually the ones that insist on it, or the ones saying "Morrison raped my childhood and destroyed Gen. X Emma, that BASTARD!".

[Slung]

Emma has been draw younger since Gen X got popular but back in the old days, she looked like she could be Storm or Jean's mother in age.

It isn't like Sean was drawn like some grandpa either though and he is around Shaw, Xavier age.

[jarrod]

Yep, it didn't really begun with Morrison.
Her being in her 20s, or peers with the O5, certainly did though. There was no even slight hint of Emma being that young until he had her blurt it out.


It's not a coincidence that her haters are usually the ones that insist on it, or the ones saying "Morrison raped my childhood and destroyed Gen. X Emma, that BASTARD!".
Well, the problem with making sweeping generalizations, especially in an argument to try and discredit your opposition, is that they inevitably have exceptions and end up making you out to look a bit foolish.

Take me for example, I happen to love Emma, Morrison's Emma specifically, and thought she really hasn't been handled well since (barring a few moments of subversive Milligan brilliance). And I pretty much hated Lobdell's castrated den mother interpretation to boot. But c'mon.... that bitch is old. ;)

[frog]

35 posts and only maybe two have actually addressed the original question - we really are good at thread derailment!