Official All-Star Batman & Robin #8 thread (spoilers)

[Captain Jim]

Since this issue premieres today in Canada and Thursday in the US, I thought I'd go ahead and start a thread for it. Please put all of your comments relative to this issue in this thread.

Also, a plea: Let's try to keep our comments focused to commentary on the story & art and not get off on one of these "This series is a rip-off" tangents. This is supposed to be the end of the first arc, so comments on how the whole arc fits together are certainly appropriate as well (as long as they're more substantial than the above mentioned tangents that we've all heard many times before).

[lukababic]

1st :)

Cant wait to read it! Since its the last one for this year, maybe it will even have Joker in it! Catch ya later, off to the store!

[The Batman]

Stuff is for sure coming out in Canada today?

I might make a special trip to the store then.

[Mia]

Well I guess Miller must have read comments from those of us who’ve decided to pack it in. Because this issue reads less like fan fic by a 15 year old boy on a sugar rush, and is a bit more interesting. Batman is less of a monkey than he is in past issues, and instead sounds more like a poor mock up of Clint Eastwood in Dirty Harry.

The scene with the Joker garroting that woman was sick. I’m pretty open minded and likely to scream ’SEXISM’ at the drop at a hat, but I found it pretty distasteful. But then again this is the Joker. I’ve never understood why so many authors write him as a mad dog. As opposed to the sadist he is supposed to be.

The best stuff in this issue was the artwork and the writing of young Dick. It’s very reminiscent of the interpretation in Robin Year One.

In that Dick is portrayed as a very smart boy yet still a teenager. Unlike Tim who is essentially an adult in a teenage boys body. And Jason was just a brat. Dick actually has more intelligence and wisdom than Batman.

This is supposed to be my last issue. But I may pick it up from issue to issue depending on the quality.

[Batman was taken]

I personally thought it was pretty good. Granted, I haven't hated the series to the extent that others have, I've enjoyed the whole thing...

Anyways, I really, really like the way the Joker was presented. He was sick and creepy, the way he should be. Not a whole lot happened, but it did introduce several big plot threads, which is good. I liked seeing Catwoman show up, nice little surprise there...

The rest of this series seems to be shaping up pretty nicely now. Shame we have to wait what, three months for the next one?

I'd give it a solid 7.5-8/10...

Oh, and the art was beautiful as always... And there was no goddamn Batman!

[Raker616]

Was the JLA in this issue, and if so did they do anything? thanks.

[Batman was taken]

GL (Hal) made a brief cameo. They (him and Batman) set up a meeting for the next issue.

[Infernorhythm]

Whats the Joker like in this issue? I saw a cover of him with a dragon tattoo, whats up with that? Spoilers please.

[Ramiel]

Oh, and the art was beautiful as always... And there was no goddamn Batman!

Seriously, not even one? Wow, never thought I'd see that day

[the goddamn batman]

Well I guess Miller must have read comments from those of us who’ve decided to pack it in.

Somehow I really doubt that. Miller is known for not giving a shit about peoples comments on the internet... well, aside from staying away from them.

The best stuff in this issue was the writing of young Dick.

It's always been. That's the point. This is Dick's story, and it's always seemed to me that it's all filtered through his eyes... even when he's not present, it's about how Dick sees Batman.

Regardless of satire or parody, that's how I've taken most of it. Dick is the straight-man.

[smoothjokes]

Seriously, not even one? Wow, never thought I'd see that day

I just picked up #7 and #8, read both of them. I don't know why people hate on this book so much, it's excellent. Dick Grayson is being handled so well, and Miller's Joker should be a definitive Joker! I've never been so disgusted by the character until now. I mean besides Killing Joke, the Joker is usually written so goofy. This was a great take on the character, he's a serial killing mob-boss, that's how he should be played. He's smart, he's a damn scientist for Christ sakes if you follow his first appearance.

Anyways excellent reads, back on my pull-list. Very excited for the next issue. Couldn't stop laughing at Hal Jordan eating a hot-dog, it's good characterization as Hal is a very free-spirited person. Love the line, "If I had that power, imagine what I could do..." But I hope that Bruce figures that one out, that he's exactly the person that doesn't need the ring, he'd almost act as a dictator with power like that.

Ever since All-Star Batman & Robin returned from there hiatus, it's been great issues ever since. I'm glad Frank or DC didn't buckle under fan-boy pressure. The book still sells over 100,000. I always compare comic fandom to radio talk shows, fan-boys are the "callers" (basically the crazies who take things too serious or are just plain weird in person) and the rest of comic fandom who are the "listeners" (intelligent people who don't go spewing there opinion as if it's coming from God's mouth himself). Anyways, I say buy the book, but I know I'm in the minority on this board.

[the goddamn batman]

I'm glad Frank or DC didn't buckle under fan-boy pressure. The book still sells over 100,000.

Frank would never buckle under pressure from fans.

DC will never change a book that sells as well as All Star. Now imagine the numbers it'd be doing if it didn't have so many delays.

[smoothjokes]

It'd probably still do about the same maybe 120,000. It's natural for a book to decline. I'm still a fan of the All-Star Joker, what an introduction. I'm hoping he puts a bullet through Selina's head. That'd be dope. Oh and Black Canary is sexy! :D

[the goddamn batman]

Decline, sure, but I believe ASB&R had a pretty substantial drop off after the year delay. I might be wrong, but that's what I remember.

[lonewolf23k]

Whats the Joker like in this issue? I saw a cover of him with a dragon tattoo, whats up with that? Spoilers please.

Basically, he's a gangster thug who has sex with women, then kills them for fun, then has his thug female bodyguard who's topless except for swastikas covering her breasts dispose of the body.

...I swear to God, I wish I was making that up.

I barely know where to begin to describe how horribly wrong this portrayal is... Simply put, Miller has reduced Joker to little more then a thug with a white face. Where's the style? The sick, twisted humor? The display of raw insanity?

FOR HEAVEN'S SAKES, HE WASN'T EVEN LAUGHING!! WHAT KIND OF SCREWED UP JOKER DOESN'T LAUGH WHEN HE KILLS?! :mad:

I'm sure as Hell glad I didn't buy that comic. That Frank Miller, who wrote one of the best Batman stories ever in "DKR" would later come out with this crap just sickens me.

[smoothjokes]

Basically, he's a gangster thug who has sex with women, then kills them for fun, then has his thug female bodyguard who's topless except for swastikas covering her breasts dispose of the body.

...I swear to God, I wish I was making that up.

I barely know where to begin to describe how horribly wrong this portrayal is... Simply put, Miller has reduced Joker to little more then a thug with a white face. Where's the style? The sick, twisted humor? The display of raw insanity?

FOR HEAVEN'S SAKES, HE WASN'T EVEN LAUGHING!! WHAT KIND OF SCREWED UP JOKER DOESN'T LAUGH WHEN HE KILLS?! :mad:

I'm sure as Hell glad I didn't buy that comic. That Frank Miller, who wrote one of the best Batman stories ever in "DKR" would later come out with this crap just sickens me.

The bitch with Nazi tits made me laugh out loud along with Hal Jordan eating a hot-dog. No one likes "Ultimate" Batman (which is what they told Frank the All-Star line was suppose to be) right now, and to say that isn't the Joker's character hasn't read many Joker stories, he's not always in a laughing mood and the Joker is still a serial killer, make no mistakes about it.

[Ramiel]

I just picked up #7 and #8, read both of them. I don't know why people hate on this book so much, it's excellent.

Well, just to clarify, I wasn't hating on the book so to speak, I have no real problem with it, but I'm shocked to hear that Goddamn Batman wasn't used once considering how excessively it's been used in the past

[the goddamn batman]

Basically, he's a gangster thug who has sex with women, then kills them for fun, then has his thug female bodyguard who's topless except for swastikas covering her breasts dispose of the body.

That Frank Miller, who wrote one of the best Batman stories ever in "DKR" would later come out with this crap just sickens me.

FOR HEAVEN'S SAKES, HE WASN'T EVEN LAUGHING!!


You've not actually read DKR then, have you?

[the goddamn batman]

No one likes "Ultimate" Batman (which is what they told Frank the All-Star line was suppose to be)

Where'd you get that info?

According to Miller, DC didn't tell him that it was anything like that, or that he had any rules to abide by, except that it must be Dick Grayson as Robin.

According to DC, like, several times, it's not supposed to be their answer to the Ultimate line. It's just stories told outside of current continuity with the original Dynamic Duo and big name creativ teams. That's it.

[lonewolf23k]

The bitch with Nazi tits made me laugh out loud along with Hal Jordan eating a hot-dog. No one likes "Ultimate" Batman (which is what they told Frank the All-Star line was suppose to be) right now, and to say that isn't the Joker's character hasn't read many Joker stories, he's not always in a laughing mood and the Joker is still a serial killer, make no mistakes about it.

Nazitits wasn't funny. And while the Joker may not always be in a funny laughing mood, there's still a rhythm to follow when telling a story. When you introduce a character, his First Impression will generally reflect how he's going to be throughout the entire story. Just look at the First Impressions of Darth Vader, the Dragonball Z androids, or Princess Azula.

A proper introduction for the Joker should... Well, I think the DCAU adaptation of The Laughing Fish (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxiY2x_Ljsg&feature=related) shows it best..

Step one, a showman's introduction.
Step two, a crazy scheme.
Step three, a display of brutal violence. Bonus points if it's actually darkly funny.

This introduction... Nothing, and I mean nothing about it screams "Joker" to me. All of it is crap any common thug could've done. If he'd, at least killed the girl with Joker Venom, or better yet some variant of it he'd put on his rubber, then it might've been Joker-esque, but strangling?!

Like the Joker would say: "Strictly Amateur Hour."

Look, you want to know how the Joker should be written? There's a whole thread on Scans_Daily called "Great Moments in Joker History" (http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/4157482.html#cutid1) that showcases some of the best Joker stories ever written.

In fact, fun quote from that post:
So, my checklist for a good Joker story:

1)Joker's actions should be determined by does whatever makes you chuckle hardest, the darker the humor the better.
2)He has no true origin.
3)There's a black, bitter evil inside the madness that hates everything and that peeks through when he is pushed too hard.
4)His smile is a contortion of his facial muscles, much like his toxin's effects. Maybe some back alley plastic surgery thrown in. It is NOT the result of a poorly thrown batarang or that god awful alteration that took place after Slayride and has been almost immediately discarded by sane writers.
5)Joker Venom is a bit cumbersome. Just call it Smilex; they came up with a good name for the first movie, stick with it.
6) A good Joker story should end with him dying (but with no body being found) much more often then it should end with Batman hauling him back to Arkham.
7)A good Joker story shouldn't have a purely evil and frightening Joker (gassing a daycare center or a stadium full of people, just to make it clear how horrible he is), nor should it have him as just a silly clown (Cesar Romero. 'nuff said). It should have him being both at once, in balance with each other.
8)Most importantly, a good Joker story should have a simple premise. No huge crossover, no giant plot that involves half the Batman rogues gallery, or affects a dozen other superheroes. It doesn't even need to be a plot that endangers all of Gotham. You just gotta stick to what works. The Joker wants to kill off five of his henchmen. The Joker wants to patent fish. The Joker wants to drive Jim Gordon crazy.
9)And if he ever dies, he last thought/words should be him realizing it's not all a joke after all.

Now, just with that first checklist item, we can tell one thing about Frank Miller: apparantly, he thinks dead whores are funny.

[lonewolf23k]

You've not actually read DKR then, have you?

It's been a while since I last read it, true. But for heavens' sakes, ASB&R makes DKR look almost as good as Watchmen...

[the goddamn batman]

Nazitits wasn't funny. And while the Joker may not always be in a funny laughing mood, there's still a rhythm to follow when telling a story. When you introduce a character, his First Impression will generally reflect how he's going to be throughout the entire story. Just look at the First Impressions of Darth Vader, the Dragonball Z androids, or Princess Azula.

A proper introduction for the Joker should... Well, I think the DCAU adaptation of The Laughing Fish (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxiY2x_Ljsg&feature=related) shows it best..

First, nobody is introducing Joker. You're talking about one of the most well known fictional characters in the world.

I mean, the fact that you've noticed that he's not as he "should" be means two things; one: you're well aware of the character, and thus he needs no introduction. two: Frank has sucesfully introduced his version, because you've noticed the difference.

And Whiskey. Tango. Foxtrot. Frank said in an interview before the book even cae out that Joker wouldn't be laughing or funny. he;d be pure evil. The name Joker would be ironic.

I dunno...

[the goddamn batman]

It's been a while since I last read it, true.

Clearly. "Nazitits" (as people are refering to her, and yeah, if you've called her that, you've put a giant VOID stamp on your right to comment on Miller's portrayal/opinion/respect for/or lack of women. ;) ) was in DKR. As was the Joker you're reading in this comic.

So, you might want to brush up on books before you comment on them.

[lonewolf23k]

Okay, fine... It's Miller-Joker. It's just not the real Joker, or even a reasonable adaptation thereof.

As far as I'm concerned, he's just a thug with a white face. Just a cheap knock-off.

[Infernorhythm]

Basically, he's a gangster thug who has sex with women, then kills them for fun, then has his thug female bodyguard who's topless except for swastikas covering her breasts dispose of the body.

...I swear to God, I wish I was making that up.

I barely know where to begin to describe how horribly wrong this portrayal is... Simply put, Miller has reduced Joker to little more then a thug with a white face. Where's the style? The sick, twisted humor? The display of raw insanity?

FOR HEAVEN'S SAKES, HE WASN'T EVEN LAUGHING!! WHAT KIND OF SCREWED UP JOKER DOESN'T LAUGH WHEN HE KILLS?! :mad:

I'm sure as Hell glad I didn't buy that comic. That Frank Miller, who wrote one of the best Batman stories ever in "DKR" would later come out with this crap just sickens me.

To be fair, DKR sucked.

Wow, that Joker sounds bad. And what is with Miller and women with swastikas? I remember seeing them in Sin City, DKR, and now this.

[Ramiel]

As was the Joker you're reading in this comic.

True, I don't even think he smiles till he offs himself

[the goddamn batman]

Okay, fine... It's Miller-Joker. It's just not the real Joker, or even a reasonable adaptation thereof.

As far as I'm concerned, he's just a thug with a white face. Just a cheap knock-off.

Yeah, it's Miller's Joker. Like it's always been. Like he said it would be. Like it always is with every character... in a book staring Miller's Batman.

Miller does his versions of every character he touches. Why you'd be shocked to discover this some 30 years into the man's career, I don't know, but there it is.

[the goddamn batman]

True, I don't even think he smiles till he offs himself

Not that I recall, but my copy is on loan.

[lonewolf23k]

Yeah, it's Miller's Joker. Like it's always been. Like he said it would be. Like it always is with every character... in a book staring Miller's Batman.

Miller does his versions of every character he touches. Why you'd be shocked to discover this some 30 years into the man's career, I don't know, but there it is.

I expected something horribly dark, twisted and lacking in moral values, and rather unlike the real versions of the characters, I'll admit...

...But this version of the Joker is just beyond the pale. You can not have a Joker who's not darkly funny, even if the joke is only funny to him! For heavens' sakes, this guy makes The Batman's Joker look magnificent in comparison!

Look, I can accept that Miller-Batman is a sociopath, that Miller-Black Canary is a skank, that Miller-Diana is a man-hater, that Miller-Superman is some dumb super-powered tool of the Powers that Be...

...But a Joker who doesn't laugh is no Joker at all, no matter who's writing.

[the goddamn batman]

I expected something horribly dark, twisted and lacking in moral values, and rather unlike the real versions of the characters, I'll admit...

...But this version of the Joker is just beyond the pale. You can not have a Joker who's not darkly funny, even if the joke is only funny to him! For heavens' sakes, this guy makes The Batman's Joker look magnificent in comparison!

Look, I can accept that Miller-Batman is a sociopath, that Miller-Black Canary is a skank, that Miller-Diana is a man-hater, that Miller-Superman is some dumb super-powered tool of the Powers that Be...

...But a Joker who doesn't laugh is no Joker at all, no matter who's writing.

Dude, you're not the authority on... well, anything. You do understand the concpet of irony, right? So, a character named JOKER, who's an evil homicidal maniac with an ironic name would be just what you've seen in this issue. That's what Miller wants Joker to be in his Milelr-verse. Get over it.

[ultramandingo]

........ im nota jim lee fan . and the last millerthing i like'd was daredevil , but i kinda liked this one for some reason . " damn , the brats starting to GET to me " - or its all the vodka tonics ive been drinkin and GRINDERMAN in listing to

[Choppa]

I thought this was crap. Joker's a pimp now? Hal is eating a hot dog and drinking soda? Batman sounds like a retard himself with all the stupid comments he's making. What's with the girl with the swastikas on her breasts? This was another issue where nothing happend. So far the first 8 issues have all been setup. That's ridiculous.

[GRANT!]

What was up with Joker's body builder physique and Asian Dragon tat?

[lonewolf23k]

Dude, you're not the authority on... well, anything. You do understand the concpet of irony, right?

I get Irony. It just doesn't work in this case.

[lonewolf23k]

What was up with Joker's body builder physique and Asian Dragon tat?

Miller's writing. That's what's up.

[TROUBLEZ]

Lonewolf, in that checklist you linked, what comic is that animated style Joker story from? The one where he's telling Harley about his dad?

[lonewolf23k]

Lonewolf, in that checklist you linked, what comic is that animated style Joker story from? The one where he's telling Harley about his dad?

That's from "Mad Love", a one-shot DCAUverse comic that was later on adapted to an episode of the series.

[the goddamn batman]

What was up with Joker's body builder physique and Asian Dragon tat?

Miller's writing. That's what's up.

Actually? The Dragon tat was Lee's idea... I'll assume that the physique is Lee as well. Considering Alfred was built like Batman and Jim Lee can really only draw one or two body types.

How you equate things on the artists end of things to the responsibility of the writer, I'll never know.

[TROUBLEZ]

That's from "Mad Love", a one-shot DCAUverse comic that was later on adapted to an episode of the series.

Thanks. That's a good list of Joker moments.

Just checked Mile High, it's 28 dollars. Damn.

Maybe Dini should have been paired up with Jim Lee.

[Dr. Chaos]

Green Lantern chilling on a Gotham rooftop eating a hotdog? The Emerald Imbecile?

Yes! Sock it to me, Miller!

*marks*

[lonewolf23k]

Actually? The Dragon tat was Lee's idea... I'll assume that the physique is Lee as well. Considering Alfred was built like Batman and Jim Lee can really only draw one or two body types.

How you equate things on the artists end of things to the responsibility of the writer, I'll never know.

Okay, fine... Miller and Lee ****** up the Joker, then.

[Dr. Chaos]

And now, for your enjoyment, stolen directly from Frank's laptop, a brief preview of Issue #9:

Joker: Well, you're pretty damn crazy, aren't you, Batman? Care for some calm Non-joking dialogue? Cause I don't do that.

Batman: HAHAHAHAHA!!

*bites off Joker's ear and howls at the moon*

[Captain Jim]

Dude, you're not the authority on... well, anything. You do understand the concpet of irony, right? So, a character named JOKER, who's an evil homicidal maniac with an ironic name would be just what you've seen in this issue. That's what Miller wants Joker to be in his Milelr-verse. Get over it.

Simmer down, GD.

[Violently Apathetic]

And now, for your enjoyment, stolen directly from Frank's laptop, a brief preview of Issue #9:

Joker: Well, you're pretty damn crazy, aren't you, Batman? Care for some calm Non-joking dialogue? Cause I don't do that.

Batman: HAHAHAHAHA!!

*bites off Joker's ear and howls at the moon*

Great, now I have Pepsi all over my computer screen. Thanks a lot. I was doing okay until that last line...

[Brad Barton]

I'll sum up.

Writing = Bad.

Art = Awesome, as always.

Topless swastika-pastied henchwoman = Unintentionally laugh inducing.

The Joker = Miller and Lee trying too hard to be edgy.

Dialogue = Way too repetitive.

The Series = Wishes it could be a quarter as good as All-Star Superman, but isn't.

WIll I buy it again next month (year)? = Probably. Lee's art is too good to miss.

Topless swastika-pastied henchwoman = Still unintentionally laugh inducing.

[GRANT!]

I'm also kind wondering why a pretty young prosecuter decided to have a one night stand with some creepy dude in clown makeup. I know girls make some mistakes but c'mon you don't have one night stands with the Joker.

[Dr. Chaos]

You do in Gotham city, baby.

(it's something in the water, I think)

[Brad Barton]

I'm also kind wondering why a pretty young prosecuter decided to have a one night stand with some creepy dude in clown makeup. I know girls make some mistakes but c'mon you don't have one night stands with the Joker.Well, when she says "If I didn't know better I'd think you slipped something into my drink", I think it's alluded to that the Joker probably slipped something into her drink.

[GRANT!]

Well, when she says "If I didn't know better I'd think you slipped something into my drink", I think it's alluded to that the Joker probably slipped something into her drink.

Missed that bit.

[GRANT!]

You do in Gotham city, baby.

(it's something in the water, I think)

Maybe I'm just depressed that the Joker gets more action then I do. And I don't strangle women to death.

[Batman was taken]

I have a question. All the people hating on this. WHY are you still reading it? We're 8 issues in, you know damn well what you're getting. If you haven't liked the first 7 issues, you're not gonna like the rest.

[pariah-1972]

God this was so funny i think almost died or somethin.:D
i don't think this book should be taken seriously at all now i had my doubts before but this is Frank doing black comedy which is not something hes known for .
i did think the nazitits thing was so over the top stupid,
but unfortunately from what i have seen and read about Frank Millers writing he has a lot of issues with females unfortunately.
i would suggest therapy but then it would just be Frank Miller lite and probably not very entertaining.
The Joker was completely different and out of character but then nobody in this comic is like they were they are usually written so it's kind of weird to complain about it now.

[DoctorNemesis]

I have a question. All the people hating on this. WHY are you still reading it? We're 8 issues in, you know damn well what you're getting. If you haven't liked the first 7 issues, you're not gonna like the rest.

It's the comedy value, speaking personally. I pick it up in the shop, have a good little chuckle, and then put it back again. Sets me up for the rest of the day. :)

Although maybe I'm missing something and I may be misremembering, but I'm a bit surprised that the Joker didn't even crack a smile when he was throttling that woman; say what you will about Miller's interpretation and what have you, but isn't the whole point of the Joker that he's a sick little psycho who gets off on this kind of thing - that he finds this sort of thing utterly hilarious? Isn't that part of what's so disturbing about the character? I mean, I can understand Batman but making the Joker dour and grim kind of suggests that the writer's missed the whole point of the character. But then, as Pariah says above, that's not exactly out of the ordinary for this book.

I did like Batman's little burst of petulance when he was thinking of the 'Green Retard' (or whatever he calls Hal Jordan) and what he'd do with the Green Lantern ring if it'd been given to him, though.

[Smokeyjay]

Anyone else find the dragon tattoo of Joke pretty cool? It doesn't really fit the Joker though.

But I like the character design behind this Joker.

Well I'm reading it because I enjoy it. I think there's a lot of things that are cheezy about it, but its still a fun read. Your not bogged down in continuity like in other comics.

[Jon Vinson]

This is the strangest, most f'd-up Batman I've ever read. And Godamit I've read alot of Batman stories. I can appreciate the utter audacity of it. Even the groan-inducing moments, and there've been a few.
This isn't Miller's best work, but it's been alot of fun so far. Just as long as you don't take it too seriously.
And Jim Lee's artwork is always a joy to behold.
www.theapplicants.com

[pariah-1972]

It's really ironic that Robin is the only real sympathetic person in this comic right now.
to be honest i never really liked him until he grew up right before he became Nightwing.

question: could this dragon tattoo be related to yakuza? somehow? don't they wear similar things like that?

[Dr. Chaos]

Isn't that part of what's so disturbing about the character?
Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure this guy isn't the same character as the main universe Joker.

It's fine I think if people don't like the characters, think its crappy writing or whatever, thats completely understandable but I always find it weird when characters in the All Star title are referred to as being out of character or something along those lines considering this is hardly the same world.

I have no problem with Frank's Joker, if he wants to play him for sadism and artistic irony, thats fine with me.

That doesn't mean I have to like him but he's certainly not breaking any rules, this isn't exactly Batman or Detective Comics.

Not crazy about the tat though, every psycho and their mom seems to have one that looks like that these days.

[filthysize]

Man, Captain Jim is right. All the "this book is supposed to be different/no, this is a parody/it's supposed to be silly" discussions are so bo-ring. Come on, we're 8 issues in. Shouldn't we all know the book enough by now to move on? Why are we still talking about it like it's issue 1 or 2?

For the record, this issue isn't the funniest, but it has the best writing yet. Joker's Crying Freeman characterization and opening narration are fabulous, and Batman's captions are getting more deliberately entertaining. "Whoa. Here comes a big flashlight. Very inventive." made me laugh. I never really wished for anyone to make Hal Jordan an intergalactic idiot before, but I'm liking it. His hot dog face was priceless.

Love the stuff with Robin choosing his costume, too.

[the goddamn batman]

It's really ironic that Robin is the only real sympathetic person in this comic right now.
to be honest i never really liked him until he grew up right before he became Nightwing.


I don't think it's at all ironic. It's deliberate.

[DoctorNemesis]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure this guy isn't the same character as the main universe Joker.

It's fine I think if people don't like the characters, think its crappy writing or whatever, thats completely understandable but I always find it weird when characters in the All Star title are referred to as being out of character or something along those lines considering this is hardly the same world.

I have no problem with Frank's Joker, if he wants to play him for sadism and artistic irony, thats fine with me.

That doesn't mean I have to like him but he's certainly not breaking any rules, this isn't exactly Batman or Detective Comics.

Not crazy about the tat though, every psycho and their mom seems to have one that looks like that these days.

True enough, this isn't the mainstream Bat-verse - but then again, with these characters even in different universes and Elseworlds and what have you, there's certain core fundamentals you'd expect to show up in some form or another, certain key elements about the Joker that uniquely identify him as 'The Joker'. Otherwise, what's the point of doing him at all - why not just create a new character?

To take one example, ASB&R Batman isn't like the mainstream Batman at all, but there's certain characteristics that appear which nevertheless say (to me, anyway) that this is still a Batman we're talking about. Granted, they might not be characteristics I necessarily enjoy or think are interesting (but that's another discussion), but they're at least recogniseable as being part of Batman. That just didn't happen with his Joker - his actions in the comic were certainly sadistic and evil, but they could have been performed by just any random psycho. Even granting that this is an alternate continuity there was still nothing particularly 'Jokerish' about this Joker other than the fact that he was made-up like a clown. For me, anyway.

I mean, to be honest I don't particularly give a toss about ASB&R one way or the other - it's the kind of book I just pick up in the store and flip through to see what's happened and then put it back down again - so if this Joker floats your boat then that's fine with me. The character who appeared just didn't particularly strike me as being the Joker, that's all.

[Mia]

I have a question. All the people hating on this. WHY are you still reading it? We're 8 issues in, you know damn well what you're getting. If you haven't liked the first 7 issues, you're not gonna like the rest.


Jim Lee's artwork and a love of Batman that's why. If it had been a less talented artist (ie. Javier Pullido) or the story had featured another superhero I wouldn't have bothered with the book.

[pariah-1972]

I don't think it's at all ironic. It's deliberate.Its ironic to me that this kid is more of a grown up than all the Justice League put together.
it's also ironic that i never liked him as a kid before and i would have thought that Frank Miller would hate Robin since he seems to dislike anything Silver Age related and Robin is probably the biggest.

[Schmakt]

This was the best issue yet. Easily.
So glad that he avoided the "goddamn Batman" joke as that got REALLY irritating last time. The Joker is a BADASS. And Batman's insane, and Hal is an idiot. Fantastic fun. This issue saved the series for me. I was kind of on the fence about sticking through 'til the end, but now I'm definitely staying around. Good times. :)

(Although that little editor's note about anatomical impossibilities or whatever was stupid... I can forgive that tho)

[ZombieHavoc]

I thought this was supposed to be the final issue of the first story arc, but I wouldn't really say that any sort of arc has been finished here.

That being said, I did enjoy the issue. I love this book.

[Ramiel]

Jim Lee's artwork and a love of Batman that's why. If it had been a less talented artist (ie. Javier Pullido) or the story had featured another superhero I wouldn't have bothered with the book.

There are like 4 other ongoing Batman titles out there, surely if you truly are disgusted with this title or hate the portrayal of the characters it'd be ok to drop and get your fix elsewhere.

[lukababic]

The best issue ever, or at least so far. I laughed my ass off! Things like: editorial's note, how do you know my name, mouse trap/flash light moron, pulling the hood down... and none of the "goddamness"! Although, I think Jim Lee's shorthand and perspective weren't as good as they are usually, some of those bird-eye views distorted the body proportions and some limbs positions.

But, one thing i didn't get: Since when does Joker has tattoos and Nazi girl sidekick with swastika-nipples? And for what purpose? Also, this may be the first proof ever that Joker isn't gay... just maybe a necrophile :) And whats the deal with Selina, shes a Joker's biatch now?

I can't wait to see the next issue and how will Miller explain why does Joker needs two circus trapeze artists dead. No wait, even more than that I can't wait to see what will happen when the Bats and GL meet! Jim already showed some of the pages on gametap videos section, also available on his gelatometi blog. Maybe WW will show up and cheat Supes with the Bat in front of everybody in Black Canary style!

I don't know about you, but these 20 or so pages read awfully fast!

[pariah-1972]

The best issue ever, or at least so far. I laughed my ass off! Things like: editorial's note, how do you know my name, mouse trap/flash light moron, pulling the hood down... and none of the "goddamness"! Although, I think Jim Lee's shorthand and perspective weren't as good as they are usually, some of those bird-eye views distorted the body proportions and some limbs positions.

But, one thing i didn't get: Since when does Joker has tattoos and Nazi girl sidekick with swastika-nipples? And for what purpose? Also, this may be the first proof ever that Joker isn't gay... just maybe a necrophile :) And whats the deal with Selina, shes a Joker's biatch now?

I can't wait to see the next issue and how will Miller explain why does Joker needs two circus trapeze artists dead. No wait, even more than that I can't wait to see what will happen when the Bats and GL meet! Jim already showed some of the pages on gametap videos section, also available on his gelatometi blog. Maybe WW will show up and cheat Supes with the Bat in front of everybody in Black Canary style!

I don't know about you, but these 20 or so pages read awfully fast!

I think the Nazi girl is supposed to be his version of Captain Nazi since they both have blonde crewcuts, for what purpose?
obviously eye candy since so far so shows no real purpose so far,
i wouldn't call Selina Jokers "biatch" especially to her face , unless you like being whipped?
the reason it reads so fast is because of all the splash pages.

[swedishmeatballs]

The best issue ever, or at least so far. I laughed my ass off! Things like: editorial's note, how do you know my name, mouse trap/flash light moron, pulling the hood down... and none of the "goddamness"! Although, I think Jim Lee's shorthand and perspective weren't as good as they are usually, some of those bird-eye views distorted the body proportions and some limbs positions.

But, one thing i didn't get: Since when does Joker has tattoos and Nazi girl sidekick with swastika-nipples? And for what purpose? Also, this may be the first proof ever that Joker isn't gay... just maybe a necrophile :) And whats the deal with Selina, shes a Joker's biatch now?

I can't wait to see the next issue and how will Miller explain why does Joker needs two circus trapeze artists dead. No wait, even more than that I can't wait to see what will happen when the Bats and GL meet! Jim already showed some of the pages on gametap videos section, also available on his gelatometi blog. Maybe WW will show up and cheat Supes with the Bat in front of everybody in Black Canary style!

I don't know about you, but these 20 or so pages read awfully fast!

Geez, did people already forget about Bruno?

[the goddamn batman]

Its ironic to me that this kid is more of a grown up than all the Justice League put together.
it's also ironic that i never liked him as a kid before and i would have thought that Frank Miller would hate Robin since he seems to dislike anything Silver Age related and Robin is probably the biggest.

Again, it's not ironic. Frank is doing that on purpose. He's writing Robin as straight as possible. it's Robin's origin, it's his story, it's his book, he's the one that's going to shine.

Didn't Frank say that he'd been pretty shitty to Robin in the past and it was time to show him some love?

Then agin, Frank said that Dick comes up with the name 'Robin'... yet, clearly Batman did at the end there.

And, The girl with the Swastika's on her breasts is Bruno from DKR. And Joker mentions poisioning the water, like at the end of Year One. Frank's nodding to his other work.

[pariah-1972]

A girl named Bruno?

[Violently Apathetic]

A transvestite named Bruno.

[Deadpooligan]

The straight faced Joker is obviously a lead-in to later development of the character. He's going to snap, and be really really crazy. We're talking about the same writer who had him laugh as his neck got spun around.

He'll come around. I have faith in Miller to keep me entertained.

And Jim Lee to be continuously awesome, now that they've put him on a schedule.

[pariah-1972]

A transvestite named Bruno.

This may be the scariest strangest thing i have ever seen in a comic.

[spidervenom]

Isnt the swastika women from dkr?

[the goddamn batman]

Isnt the swastika women from dkr?

And, The girl with the Swastika's on her breasts is Bruno from DKR.

;)

This may be the scariest strangest thing i have ever seen in a comic.

Yeah, it happened over 20 years ago. And it's far from the scariest or strangest thing I've seen in a comic, but maybe after 20 years the shock of Bruno has worn off.

[OverMaster]

Isnt the swastika women from dkr?

Well, she is called Bruno, but we don't know if that's her real name (as a born-man) or just a nickname (because she's a butch, maybe?). So we don't know for sure if she's a transvestite. After all, in Frank Miller's world, where tough-guy bikers can be named 'Dorothy', why not a girl named 'Bruno'?

I wonder if we will see the huge and dumb toymaker from DKR, too. I liked that guy, even though his freaky flying robot kids were way too creepy.

[filthysize]

The straight faced Joker is obviously a lead-in to later development of the character. He's going to snap, and be really really crazy. We're talking about the same writer who had him laugh as his neck got spun around.

I don't know. That's kind of redundant of DKR if he's just going to start laughing again because of Bats. I like the whole "the name Joker is ironic" angle (which I had a hunch would be like this, given that splash page hint at the end of #7).

The reason this works is because he's not just another mob boss/serial killer with a clown face, but he's a clown who seems to actually be sad and gloomy all the time, calling himself Joker. It's the sad clown cliche, but there's something romantic about it... Has anyone read Crying Freeman? Joker's really giving me a very similar vibe. That's probably why Miller had him bedding a woman in his first scene. I want to see Miller milk this character dry.

[Deadpooligan]

After rereading DKR, it's pretty obvious that Miller's leading us right into it.

We get Bruno the neo-nazi tranny as a nod right? Would any of you have guessed that Jocko Boy is a nod?

http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/6973/jockodkren8.jpg

In DKR Book 3, it became clear, because the plot of the ish follows the Joker. The Joker / Catwoman scene is there. Joker is pretty stern and stoic through the whole thing. In fact, the only time he laughs manically is when Batman breaks his neck.

I'm waiting for Rob and Don as the next nod, personally.

[the goddamn batman]

But in #8 Batman tells Jocko Boy he'll never stop seeing the bugs... but internally says it's a lie.

But he's contradicted DKR several times already. And Selina isn't black like in Year One, but he's nodded to the end of Year One.

But Miller contradicted DKR in DKSA so... you know. Take it for what it is.

And Joker snapped his own neck in DKR.

[Deadpooligan]

But in #8 Batman tells Jocko Boy he'll never stop seeing the bugs... but internally says it's a lie.

And Joker snapped his own neck.

1) Irony! He's wrong! And it's not like Bats hasn't been wrong before, ever.

2) Fine. But! Batman paralyzed him first, so there's that. And the Joker was still stoic as in ASBAR #8 until his very last moment, where he just kinda cracked.

[the goddamn batman]

1) Irony! He's wrong! And it's not like Bats hasn't been wrong before, ever.

Ok... I'll go along with that.

2) Fine. But! Batman paralyzed him first, so there's that. And the Joker was still stoic as in ASBAR #8 until his very last moment, where he just kinda cracked.

Sure, and he wanted to kill him, he sat there debating it, but in the end, Joker snapped his own neck to frame Batman.

And yeah, it's the same Joker as in DKR, no argument here on that one.

[Mia]

There are like 4 other ongoing Batman titles out there, surely if you truly are disgusted with this title or hate the portrayal of the characters it'd be ok to drop and get your fix elsewhere.

Thank you I am well aware of what I can and can not do.

But really this has nothing to do with the question at hand.


I have a question. All the people hating on this. WHY are you still reading it? We're 8 issues in, you know damn well what you're getting. If you haven't liked the first 7 issues, you're not gonna like the rest.

And I responded by saying:

Jim Lee's artwork and a love of Batman that's why. If it had been a less talented artist (ie. Javier Pullido) or the story had featured another superhero I wouldn't have bothered with the book.

[matt_hatyber]

man that girl is stupid. you know the girl who had sex with the joker. Yea.

ok i think robin would be better of as the hood. with the hood reminded me of damian. and i love damians costume.

[Ramiel]

Thank you I am well aware of what I can and can not do.

But really this has nothing to do with the question at hand.


Yeah, I know exactly what you said, you don't have to do quotes and re-quotes :rolleyes: All I ever see from you is complaining about this book pretty much from the beginning and you answer by saying Well, it's Batman, as if there's some shortage of him in comics

I'm sorry, but it makes no sense to me to continuously shell out 3 dollars for a comic from the start when you hate it just because you know, it's Batman. Just drop it. I'd understand if this series was just starting, but this has been around for over a year.

And yes, it did have to do with the question at hand, if you hate it so much why keep going, I'd understand if Batman was at a shortage, but he's not, 4 other ongoings (which probably going to suit your tastes of the character).

[IamtheRock3]

Somehow I really doubt that. Miller is known for not giving a shit about peoples comments on the internet... well, aside from staying away from them.



It's always been. That's the point. This is Dick's story, and it's always seemed to me that it's all filtered through his eyes... even when he's not present, it's about how Dick sees Batman.

Regardless of satire or parody, that's how I've taken most of it. Dick is the straight-man.


he may not care, but he deffintly been playing it up and having fun with people comments

by adding Jokes, and say god damm more then ever last issue

And the EDITOR note he put in there

[Deadpooligan]

Sure, and he wanted to kill him, he sat there debating it, but in the end, Joker snapped his own neck to frame Batman.

And yeah, it's the same Joker as in DKR, no argument here on that one.

It's times like this that I really really enjoy rereading it.

Hey! You guys! Eyes open for any more nods! I'm counting on you to find Rob and Don for me! And the first sign of mutants, for that matter!

For all the gripes people are giving about this book, I put all the nonsense behind me to just enjoy it. The art's fantastic, it's a prelude to DKR, and it's just pure comic book. Like, Nextwave, but with A-List Bat-family characters.

It's just so lovable. I mean, come on, Hal Jordan eating a hot dog? Unnecessarily using his ring for gesticulation? Brilliant.

[pariah-1972]

Does anyone think Bats might be jealous of Hal in some ways?
i mean Bats has worked most of his life to be the best he can be and then some freaking alien comes down and gives him the most powerful weapon in the universe?
and Hal didn't have to work for it or earn it it was just handed to him !
i could see where Bats might be a little resentful of that.

[lukababic]

Oh Mia, you truelly are Pretty and Pernicious :)

[RowdyRodimus]

This was my first issue of this series and it has quickly become one of my favorites. Not hard to do with the Ra's, OMD and Mesiah Complex crap going on.

[GRANT!]

This was my first issue of this series and it has quickly become one of my favorites. Not hard to do with the Ra's, OMD and Mesiah Complex crap going on.

Got the wrong book. This one had a serious Joker stangle a women to death after a one night stand. And the Green Lantern eating a hot dog.

[Dr. Chaos]

I really hope Frank has more plans for The Justice League.

I really do, his Wonder Woman & stooge Green Lantern are pure greatness.

[the goddamn batman]

All I ever see from you is complaining about this book pretty much from the beginning

I'm sorry, but it makes no sense to me to continuously shell out 3 dollars for a comic from the start when you hate it


The first part is the answer to the second part.;) :D

[the goddamn batman]

CBR's very own Rich Johnston on All Star:

The series is possibly the most successful superhero satire of the moment. It targets a fanboy's inner self-hate and rips it screaming onto the page. They hate it. And then buy two copies. A quite wonderful, deliberate, achievement.

[mattx110]

I can't believe a book notorious for being late, and I'm still behind 3 issues... I feel so dim.

[RowdyRodimus]

Got the wrong book. This one had a serious Joker stangle a women to death after a one night stand. And the Green Lantern eating a hot dog.

The Serious Joker works...Let's say that's how he is in Dark Knght, all the fanboys will be drooling over Ledgers perfomance. The thing is, it doesn't work for you in the comics, but have you read the first appearance of the Joker? He wasn't using guns that said "bang" or electrical joy buzzers. His entire thing was to KILL people. Not tell jokes.

And what if Hal just happens to eat hot dogs? I've seen Superman eat rocks before.

[TROUBLEZ]

catwoman was black in year one?

[GRANT!]

The Serious Joker works...Let's say that's how he is in Dark Knght, all the fanboys will be drooling over Ledgers perfomance. The thing is, it doesn't work for you in the comics, but have you read the first appearance of the Joker? He wasn't using guns that said "bang" or electrical joy buzzers. His entire thing was to KILL people. Not tell jokes.

And what if Hal just happens to eat hot dogs? I've seen Superman eat rocks before.

I wasn't making a critique. I was just stating what happened in the book because somebody was talking about another Batman comic that came out this week.

[filthysize]

I wasn't making a critique. I was just stating what happened in the book because somebody was talking about another Batman comic that came out this week.

Confusion! He was saying that it's easy to love this book because the stuff in other books suck. You misinterpreted it the first time around.

[filthysize]

CBR's very own Rich Johnston on All Star:

:D

Now we know why he was paired with Jim Lee.

[TROUBLEZ]

The first part is the answer to the second part.;) :D

Maybe they are buying it for the good art. Besides atleast they bought it and earned the right to criticize it. I stopped buying at issue #2 and I still bitch about it.

[pariah-1972]

I sympathize with Mia, theres as much bad as there is good with this book and its somewhat addictive especially when we are not getting much of a story developing.

i guess noone has any comments about my idea that Bats is jealous of Hal?

[RowdyRodimus]

I wasn't making a critique. I was just stating what happened in the book because somebody was talking about another Batman comic that came out this week.

No problem. Sorry if I came off rude.

[GRANT!]

Confusion! He was saying that it's easy to love this book because the stuff in other books suck. You misinterpreted it the first time around.

Ah... I got it. Sorry bout that.

[GRANT!]

Its ironic to me that this kid is more of a grown up than all the Justice League put together.
it's also ironic that i never liked him as a kid before and i would have thought that Frank Miller would hate Robin since he seems to dislike anything Silver Age related and Robin is probably the biggest.

I don't think that's true. DK2 treats Silver Age characters like Ray Palmer, Barry Allen and Hal Jordan pretty lovingly. Even Captain Marvel is treated with a fair amount of respect. I think Miller loves this stuff but he still likes acknowledge the absurdity of it all.


i don't think this book should be taken seriously at all now i had my doubts before but this is Frank doing black comedy which is not something hes known for .

People seem to forget that a lot of this stuff was suppose to be funny and he's been doing this for years. Sin City has a a lot of black comedy. Especially the first story with Marv. Ditto Martha Washington and the first Dark Knight as well. There's usually been an element of farce in his work. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

Does anyone think Bats might be jealous of Hal in some ways?
i mean Bats has worked most of his life to be the best he can be and then some freaking alien comes down and gives him the most powerful weapon in the universe?
and Hal didn't have to work for it or earn it it was just handed to him !
i could see where Bats might be a little resentful of that.

It's pretty obvious in the narration. The Goddamned Batman is kind of petty. Which I kind of find endearing.

[pariah-1972]

I don't know if i would call it endearing but it is pretty interesting.

[OverMaster]

2) Fine. But! Batman paralyzed him first, so there's that. And the Joker was still stoic as in ASBAR #8 until his very last moment, where he just kinda cracked.

Tiny nitpicking; actually, DKR's Joker was stoic not until his death, but until he killed the couple at the boat and then escaped into the Love Tunnel. Then he did the classic Joker Mad Laughter for the first time in DKR.

[Kid Kyoto]

Could someone post the famous Hal Jordan eating a hot dog scene?

Here in Red China I can't even look at the comic in a store and I just can't grasp what would be so funny.

[OverMaster]

Could someone post the famous Hal Jordan eating a hot dog scene?

Here in Red China I can't even look at the comic in a store and I just can't grasp what would be so funny.

In Communist China, comics look at YOU in stores!

OK, bad jokes aside, here it is...

http://pics.livejournal.com/espanolbot/pic/000ppb87

[Kid Kyoto]

Thanks man! This is kind of cool, I mean the dog's just there. It's nice to see a hero on a stakeout acting like a human being.

[Alex Dragon]

As more issues come out and I understand what Miller is doing I'm becoming a bigger fan of his writing on the book. At first it was only for Jim Lee's art but Miller is winning me over more and more with every issue. I'm really digging this version of Dick Grasyson and think this version makes more sense than the original. I like that this version seems to both respect Batman and not be afraid to call him on his BS.

I wish this book could go on for a few years because I'd love to see more of Miller's take on more of DC's characters and I'd love to see more Wonder Woman and JLA from Miller and Lee especially.

Right now the thing I'm most curious about is how Miller is going to justify Dick ending up in the ridiculous Robin costume he's destined to end up with. If Batman is pointing out how impractical Dick's first attempt is I don't see how he can give the thumbs up to the costume Dick will eventually end up wearing.

[filthysize]

Re: the whole Batman jealous of Hal thing... I remember Kessel's World's Finest mini where Batman meets Superman for the first time, and he thought almost verbatim what Miller wrote in that Hal scene, about how he could clean up Gotham quick if he was the one with superpowers because he would actually use it right.

[Punch]

I wouldn't say it's jealousy, Batman just thinks that Hal is not smart enough to use all the power he's given to it's full effect.
And whoever said that Miller isn't known for dark humor hasn't read a lot of his work or didn't understand it.

[pariah-1972]

I wouldn't say it's jealousy, Batman just thinks that Hal is not smart enough to use all the power he's given to it's full effect.
And whoever said that Miller isn't known for dark humor hasn't read a lot of his work or didn't understand it.But why would he think that? how much does he know about Hal anyways?
Maybe there is a reason he doesn't use it to it's "full effect" for all he knows.


and i'm pretty im the one who said that about Frank Miller and i readily admit i haven't read a lot of his work.:p
it was just my impression.

Hal may not be as smart as Batman but then again Bats is bending over backwards trying to intimidate some kid and the kid isn't even buying it,
so i wouldn't exactly call this version all that bright either.
:p

[Punch]

But why would he think that? how much does he know about Hal anyways?
Maybe there is a reason he doesn't use it to it's "full effect" for all he knows.Hal may not be as smart as Batman but then again Bats is bending over backwards trying to intimidate some kid and the kid isn't even buying it,
so i wouldn't exactly call this version all that bright either.
:p

I think the idea is that Batman has already started to keep tabs on the other heroes and done his homework in regards to their abilities. In regards to Robin, Batman is already starting to realize that Dick is smarter than he thought and

and i'm pretty im the one who said that about Frank Miller and i readily admit i haven't read a lot of his work.:p
it was just my impression.

Fair enough, but I'm wondering what you have read because, off the top of my head, his Daredevil runs are the only things I can think of that don't have that absurdist undertone. Even something as dark as Elektra Lives Again (an overlooked gem) has a lot of playfulness going on.

[pariah-1972]

I think the idea is that Batman has already started to keep tabs on the other heroes and done his homework in regards to their abilities. In regards to Robin, Batman is already starting to realize that Dick is smarter than he thought and

Fair enough, but I'm wondering what you have read because, off the top of my head, his Daredevil runs are the only things I can think of that don't have that absurdist undertone. Even something as dark as Elektra Lives Again (an overlooked gem) has a lot of playfulness going on.Hmmm lets see his first Daredevil issue i think (the one where Bullseye kills Elektra)
Batman Year one i'm pretty sure and this one right here.
i watched Sin City the movie but haven't read the comic really since i'm not a big fan of black and white comics (i'm picky about artwork)

[JoeCool]

I don't know. Being a huge Frank Miller fan I picked up this series at the get-go but have just had my problems with it. Even so, I decided to stick with it through the LOOOOONG delay and even an issue after.

But that was it. I decided enough was enough, even though I still read the new issues at the store because I am hoping to see something to bring me back. But it isn't happening. Yeah, Jim Lee's cover with the Joker and the Dragon Tat was ALMOST enough but I never buy anything JUST for art.

There is something seriously wrong with this series and i just cannot put my finger on it.

Maybe I am being spoiled by the INCREDIBLE freaking run on All-Star Superman, maybe I am being too nitpicky, but this storyline is choppy, the dialogue boring and the series just plain uninteresting.

I am hoping that they pull me back but right now I am enjoying the regular Batman and Detective series 10x more than this.

[Punch]

Hmmm lets see his first Daredevil issue i think (the one where Bullseye kills Elektra)
Batman Year one i'm pretty sure and this one right here.
i watched Sin City the movie but haven't read the comic really since i'm not a big fan of black and white comics (i'm picky about artwork)

Ok Yeah I see how you would have that opinion then. Besides All-Star, those are his most straight-forward works.

The Sin City comics, the early ones that is, have some truly amazing art work, but to each his own. The movie was OK, as a huge Miller fan though,( and no fan of Robert Rodriguez to begin with) I must say that it doesn't come close to the book. That absurdist tone I brought up in the earlier post is much harder to capture in film. I've said this before, but Tarantino captures that tone perfectly in his films. No surprise that I thought his segment in Sin City was more interesting than the rest of the film.

If you like what you've read I suggest you dig deeper. Miller is much more versatile than he gets credit for, some fans have extremely short memory spans.

[pariah-1972]

Ok Yeah I see how you would have that opinion then. Besides All-Star, those are his most straight-forward works.

The Sin City comics, the early ones that is, have some truly amazing art work, but to each his own. The movie was OK, as a huge Miller fan though,( and no fan of Robert Rodriguez to begin with) I must say that it doesn't come close to the book. That absurdist tone I brought up in the earlier post is much harder to capture in film. I've said this before, but Tarantino captures that tone perfectly in his films. No surprise that I thought his segment in Sin City was more interesting than the rest of the film.

If you like what you've read I suggest you dig deeper. Miller is much more versatile than he gets credit for, some fans have extremely short memory spans.I don't know how i feel about his work really it's critically acclaimed, but its also heavily misogynistic and violent and he has a tendency towards shock tactics and his artwork or the artists he usually chooses to work with i personally think are crappy.
and i think a lot of that acclaim has gone to his head to where he feels he can do whatever he wants.

[Punch]

I don't know how i feel about his work really it's critically acclaimed, but its also heavily misogynistic and violent and he has a tendency towards shock tactics and his artwork or the artists he usually chooses to work with i personally think are crappy.
and i think a lot of that acclaim has gone to his head to where he feels he can do whatever he wants.
whoa, wait I have to disagree with just about everything you've stated. I don't find anything misogynistic about Miller's work. Violent, yes, but what superhero book isn't?
As for the artists he's worked with, they may not be your taste, but they are some of the most respected and influential artists to work in the field.

Sienkiewicz
Mazzuchelli
Darrow
Gibbons
Bisley
and now Jim Lee, who is the weakest of the list, and if Lee is your weak link, that's a damn good list.
what do you find crappy about them?

also, what shock tactics are you referring to?

[pariah-1972]

whoa, wait I have to disagree with just about everything you've stated. I don't find anything misogynistic about Miller's work. Violent, yes, but what superhero book isn't?
As for the artists he's worked with, they may not be your taste, but they are some of the most respected and influential artists to work in the field.

Sienkiewicz
Mazzuchelli
Darrow
Gibbons
Bisley
and now Jim Lee, who is the weakest of the list, and if Lee is your weak link, that's a damn good list.
what do you find crappy about them?

also, what shock tactics are you referring to?Hate Sienkiewicz with a passion, i am not into abstract artwork and i don't think it belongs in a comic(but thats just my opinion.
theres a lot of comic books that aren't violent and i don't have a problem with violence if it is there for a reason and not just as a shock tactic.
aren't most of Frank Millers female characters hookers or prostitutes?
and when they aren't they are usually slutty or full of raging hormones (Elektra may be the exception)
shock tactics like putting a swastika on a girls naked boobs for no reason is a shock tactic to me.
i have yet to find a female that is a big fan of Millers work and i think that is pretty telling, my girlfriend got interested in this book because i was talking about it, but she read this issue and swore she wouldn't read this series again.
i don't want to come off sounding like a conservative,
but i have limits to what i can handle by one person, but i don't think it should be banned or anything it's just my opinions and views.

[Punch]

Hate Sienkiewicz with a passion, i am not into abstract artwork and i don't think it belongs in a comic(but thats just my opinion.
theres a lot of comic books that aren't violent and i don't have a problem with violence if it is there for a reason and not just as a shock tactic.
aren't most of Frank Millers female characters hookers or prostitutes?
and when they aren't they are usually slutty or full of raging hormones (Elektra may be the exception)
shock tactics like putting a swastika on a girls naked boobs for no reason is a shock tactic to me.
i have yet to find a female that is a big fan of Millers work and i think that is pretty telling, my girlfriend got interested in this book because i was talking about it, but she read this issue and swore she wouldn't read this series again.
i don't want to come off sounding like a conservative,
but i have limits to what i can handle by one person, but i don't think it should be banned or anything it's just my opinions and views.

Your entitled to our opinion( and so is your girlfriend) but you yourself said you haven't read much of his work. It is geared towards a male mentality, but is that wrong really? Like I said, I don't find anything he's done as outright offensive. There's also a backlash by some women against Alan Moore's The Killing Joke.(I myself find it a bit odd that DC made an action figure out of the TKJ Joker. How do you pose that thing? That's ok but the MJ statue isn't?)

Bruno(nazi transvestite)-shock tactics? Ok I'll give you that, but it's supposed to be absurd and that comes across much better in DKR. But it's hard to say most of his women are prostitutes. It may be technically true, but that's still a bit unfair, because a majority of his work is now Sin City stuff, which is partly about a town run by prostitutes. Also worth noting that he hardly ever actually shows them, um prostituting.

You should really try Give Me Liberty, even your girlfriend will like it. Female protagonist and not a hooker in sight! Seriously, it's an outstanding book.

(Gotta say this was the wrong issue to introduce your girlfriend to the series!)

[pariah-1972]

Your entitled to our opinion( and so is your girlfriend) but you yourself said you haven't read much of his work. It is geared towards a male mentality, but is that wrong really? Like I said, I don't find anything he's done as outright offensive. There's also a backlash by some women against Alan Moore's The Killing Joke.(I myself find it a bit odd that DC made an action figure out of the TKJ Joker. How do you pose that thing? That's ok but the MJ statue isn't?)

Bruno(nazi transvestite)-shock tactics? Ok I'll give you that, but it's supposed to be absurd and that comes across much better in DKR. But it's hard to say most of his women are prostitutes. It may be technically true, but that's still a bit unfair, because a majority of his work is now Sin City stuff, which is partly about a town run by prostitutes. Also worth noting that he hardly ever actually shows them, um prostituting.

You should really try Give Me Liberty, even your girlfriend will like it. Female protagonist and not a hooker in sight! Seriously, it's an outstanding book.

(Gotta say this was the wrong issue to introduce your girlfriend to the series!)Well most comic books are geared towards a "male mentality" but it's becoming more and more insular,
and that is why most women or girls prefer to read stuff like Manga.

i don't have a problem with Killing Joke at all really it made sense what Joker did and it wasn't gory at all.
i didn't even know she was a transvestite at first i thought it was supposed to be his version of Captain Nazi,
but there was no real reason for her to be there and dressing as she does and it was horrible distasteful and offensive.

and i didn't introduce her to this book mostly cause i didn't think she would get it or like it.
but she read the last issue and i told her the joker was coming up and she wanted to read this one.

[the goddamn batman]

I jsut want to start this off by saying that this post isn't an attack on you personally. Please don't take it that way. I'm simply tired of watching the internet accuse Frank Miller of things he isn't guilty of because a lot of people have decided to ignore the things that don't support their opinions.

I don't know how i feel about his work really it's critically acclaimed, but its also heavily misogynistic

It's actually not mysogynistic at all. Most superhero comic books are more mysogynistic than Miller's work, but we see what we want to see.

I guess when Miller writes strong, smart, independent, individual women who exist for reasons other than forwarding the male leads plot by being the damsel in distress... or refrigerator (your choice) it's somehow misogynistic.

I mean, the list of books starring black women is pretty small, and Miller's got a book on that list. He's probably written more female characters that aren't one note bimbo's than most other writers. But I guess when you put hookers in a town called SIN City, it's just him being an asshole. Despite the complete pieces of shit that are his male characters, and wheny ou really look at it, the only characters worth respecting in his books are often the women.

But, you know, it's got nothing to do with how we as a society judge peole. It's clearly Frank Miller's problems. :rolleyes:

Hate Sienkiewicz with a passion, i am not into abstract artwork and i don't think it belongs in a comic(but thats just my opinion.

1. What? Bill is one of the finest artist working in comics today. He's actually not an 'abstract' artist. He draws people. That's kind of the opposite of 'abstract art'. You'd know thatt if yuou knew anything about hte art you were knocking.

If you knew anything about the artist you "HATE" you'd know that he's so completely capable of other styles, has worked in them many times in his career, and has done recent work with Neal Adams, and you could barely tell who did what. Also? Bill's a freaking genious. Check out some of his work, you might be surprised at the things he's done in his amazing career. And he's not done yet.

2. It's such a completely bullshit comment to say that an art style doesn't belong in comic books (even if it is just your opinion). But, I'm just going to leave it alone because you've already shown that you simply do not know what you're talknig about. And it's just your opinion, which you're entitled to. Like how you like Kelly Clarkson's 'music'. :p

theres a lot of comic books that aren't violent

But we're talking about superhero comics and crime comics which are almost completely violent. Shit, superhero comics are endlessly violent. That's jsut what they're made of. Always have been, and always will be.

and i don't have a problem with violence if it is there for a reason and not just as a shock tactic.

How is Frank's use of violence simply a shock tactic? Examples please?

Also? Being a shock tactic is a reason. You might not like the reason, but that doesn't change that it is a reason.

aren't most of Frank Millers female characters hookers or prostitutes?

Most? No. I don't even think it's a 50/50 split. I think more of them aren't. Punch and I have had to do this beffore, probably when the last issue of this book came out, but no they aren't all hookers. Turns out the internet likes to forget/omit everything that doesn't support their argument.

Would like me to go over the list?

And, hookers are the same thing as prostitutes. ;)

and when they aren't they are usually slutty or full of raging hormones (Elektra may be the exception)

Ok... let's take a step back here and recount how many of Frank Miller's books you've even read. Are you just repeating shit you read on the interent? It's like you've jsut taken comments from past ALL STAR threads and reitterated them.

So, let me ask you to again, list examples of these 'slutty/hormonal' women you're referencing here.

shock tactics like putting a swastika on a girls naked boobs for no reason is a shock tactic to me.

I have a hard time taking this comment seriously when you refer to breasts as BOOBS.

I don't think it's a shock tactic. maybe for you it was shocking, but the rest of the world saw it back in 86. It's hardly shocking 21 years later.

i have yet to find a female that is a big fan of Millers work and i think that is pretty telling, my girlfriend got interested in this book because i was talking about it, but she read this issue and swore she wouldn't read this series again.

Dude, most women don't read COMICS! Trying to put his lack of female readership (which is only based the women you know? That's not much to go on... unless you know, like, all the women who read comics.) as an example of some profound statement about treatment of women in a male dominated industry like comics is pretty telling.

I think that comics as a whole are more guilty of the things your'e trying to put on Miller. Which is why most women don't read comics. They are by and for men.

But Frank Miller's editor at Dark Horse is a woman. His wife was his colorist on most of his books. I think that's pretty telling too. They didn't seem to have problems with his books. But maybe you, women who actually read comics, and the rest of the internet are unable to look past the word hooker to see the person that exists beyond it.

Also? I know women who like Frank Miller's books.

i don't want to come off sounding like a conservative,

Well, you do come off as sounding like you don't know what you're talking about, so, yeah, kinda like a conservative.

but i have limits to what i can handle by one person, but i don't think it should be banned or anything it's just my opinions and views.

It's not your opinion. You've stated already how little of the man's work you've read, so it's not you're opinion. It's the opinions of others that you're regurgetating on the internet. Be careful of that. The internet isn't as smart a place as it thinks it is.

[the goddamn batman]

i didn't even know she was a transvestite at first i thought it was supposed to be his version of Captain Nazi,
but there was no real reason for her to be there and dressing as she does and it was horrible distasteful and offensive.


1. She might and she might not be a transvestite. That's never been covered on a page. Someone said it here, and now it's being taken as true. We can assume based on her name and that she's got breasts, but all that is is us assuming things. That's never going to get anyone anywhere useful.

2. There was totally a reason for her to be there; She was in DKR and Miller was nodding to that. Given that DKR is the book that got Jim Lee interested iin seriously drawing comics, and he's working with his hero here, I think it was perfectly fitting to make that nod.

3. Keep in mind here that this is Gotham City. Frank Miller's Gotham City. It's a complete shit hole. It's the crappiest place on Earth. Depraved lunatics with Swastikas on their breasts walk around the streets in Miller's Gotham.

4. DKR was inspired by New York in the 80's and I wouldn't be surprised if that's something Frank actually saw on the street. He did live in Hell's Kitchen.

Offensive? No. Not really. Or even at all. Not for any reason I can find. I'm curious why you were so offended though. Do breasts offend you?

[lukababic]

I think the real question is when will TPB come out? Or will there be an Absolute edition like Hush, with Frank's and Jim's inscription saying: Goddamn!

[Paul Dee]

The bit where Batman says "Aww nuts, I'm talking to myself again - that's not good" or whatever was a Marv line straight out of Sin City wasn't it? Which of course doesn't make much sense considering the amount of monologues we've seen Batman do in this comic

[pariah-1972]

Goddamn Batman i am not going to respond to all you're posts cause you and i clearly disagree on lots of things and i don't really appreciate the personal attacks.
but i will say this.. you keep obsessing over my Kelly Clarkson comment from another thread where i didn't even say i liked her in the first place,
so i really don't know what you're deal is but it's becoming annoying i used one of her songs as an example of a song that i find really depressing and i even called it whiny and said i didn't like it,
now i do think she has some decent catchy pop rock singles from what i've heard and she can sing which clearly makes her better than 90% of the crap on the radio but i am not her biggest fan and i don't own any of her records so you really need to cut that out.


as far as breasts are concerned i don't have a problem with them at all i watch porn all the time,
but to have some chick walking around topless except for some swastika on her boobs and her having no purpose in this book is obviously used a shock tactic.
i have more of a problem with that than Joker strangling a woman and being written differently cause i can at least reasonably justify why those things happened.
i'm sorry if you have issues with me and my opinions wither they are right or wrong,
but i wish you would be a little more respectful we should learn to agree to disagree and sing kumbaya and shit personally.

and i am not a conservative but some people think that if you object to anything in the media that you somehow must be a conservative,

[CassandraL]

It's actually not mysogynistic at all. Most superhero comic books are more mysogynistic than Miller's work, but we see what we want to see.

I guess when Miller writes strong, smart, independent, individual women who exist for reasons other than forwarding the male leads plot by being the damsel in distress... or refrigerator (your choice) it's somehow misogynistic.

I mean, the list of books starring black women is pretty small, and Miller's got a book on that list. He's probably written more female characters that aren't one note bimbo's than most other writers. But I guess when you put hookers in a town called SIN City, it's just him being an asshole. Despite the complete pieces of shit that are his male characters, and wheny ou really look at it, the only characters worth respecting in his books are often the women.

But, you know, it's got nothing to do with how we as a society judge peole. It's clearly Frank Miller's problems. :rolleyes:


Just because Miller does or does not have female characters that doesn't make his work misogynistic, his work is misogynistic because he writes shallow, and 2-dimensional female characters.
He doesn't even try to write a female character well, it's always the same thing over, and over. I was appalled at how brainlessly his new Wonder Woman was written, and how un-believable she was.
I mean sure, he's turned Batman into a violent lunatic, and Superman into an overly-obsessive character, and of course that leaves Wonder Woman. Now because she's an amazon, I guess the obvious conclusion for Miller was that this automatically means that 'she hates men.' End of characterization, because that is her character. (To Miller any way.)
Now I wouldn't have a problem with Wonder Woman hating men, and being played-up as a bra-burning, feminist; but Miller has written Wonder Woman so bad that it makes my insides hurt. Okay she hates men, so what does Miller have her doing? She walks around the city all day TALKING TO HERSELF about how much she hates men. (Because obviously the more times you say it, the more developed your character becomes, and the more true it is.)
Miller wouldn't know how to write a good female character is someone wrote a book on 'The Idiots Guide to How to Write a Believable Female Character' was shoved down his gullet.
I am also reminded of a Batman comic from the start of the year that featured nothing but Black Canary looking rather sultry working as a bar waitress who did nothing but steam about how she hates men through-out the entire comic.
How is that good writing? Two words, it isn't.

I don't have a problem with prostitute characters, I really don't; the problem I have is that Miller always takes one of his re-used formulas for a female character, and slaps a face to it.

[pariah-1972]

I would also like to argue that he doesn't seem to understand insanity very well.
insane people don't go "oh am i talking to myself again? i must be crazy"
especially when he wasn't actually talking to himself in the first place:rolleyes:

[CassandraL]

Agreed. That was a rehash of an old joke of his any way, proving again that Miller is incapable of writing anything new, and stepping away from his comfort zone.

[pariah-1972]

Agreed. That was a rehash of an old joke of his any way, proving again that Miller is incapable of writing anything new, and stepping away from his comfort zone.I didn't know it was a joke:confused:

[the goddamn batman]

Goddamn Batman i am not going to respond to all you're posts cause you and i clearly disagree on lots of things and i don't really appreciate the personal attacks.

I jsut want to start this off by saying that this post isn't an attack on you personally. Please don't take it that way.

;)

but i will say this.. you keep obsessing over my Kelly Clarkson comment from another thread where i didn't even say i liked her in the first place,

Dude, it was just a joke. Lighten up a little. Jeez.

as far as breasts are concerned i don't have a problem with them at all i watch porn all the time,

That's a strange comment from someone complaining about misogyny in comic books.

but to have some chick walking around topless except for some swastika on her boobs and her having no purpose in this book is obviously used a shock tactic.

Again, maybe 20 years ago it was, but the shock has worn off. It was a nod to DKR. Plain and simple. There is nothing else there. It wasn't shocking, nor was it intended to be. It was a nod.

i'm sorry if you have issues with me and my opinions wither they are right or wrong,

I don't have a problem with you. I said that my problem is Miller getting accused of things he's not guilty of. My only problem with you personally isi that you're talking out of your ass about a body of work you haven't even read.

Your comments about Seinkeiwicz bothered me. To say that the art style of a living legend who's influenced a generation of artists, who did shit 20 years ago that peple still can't match, but who's effects are still being felt today, who's palce in comics has been earned, and will never be forgotten doesn't have a place in comics is just flat out wrong. Your opinion or not. It's absolutely wrong.

Anyway, I don't have a problem with you personally.... I tried to make that clear. I thought we could just argue about comics or whatever, but I guess not.

Just because Miller does or does not have female characters that doesn't make his work misogynistic, his work is misogynistic because he writes shallow, and 2-dimensional female characters.

Ummm... hat eto burst your bubble, but that's not at all what misogyny is. Misogyny is a HATERED of women, not a lack of good character development.

Like I said though, the internet likes to ignore what doesn't support its argument.

He doesn't even try to write a female character well, it's always the same thing over, and over.

One could argue that he does the same of his male characters... so, does Miller hate men too? That would kind of cancel out the misogyny, wouldn't it?

Miller wouldn't know how to write a good female character is someone wrote a book on 'The Idiots Guide to How to Write a Believable Female Character' was shoved down his gullet.

Two words; Martha Washington.

I am also reminded of a Batman comic from the start of the year that featured nothing but Black Canary looking rather sultry working as a bar waitress who did nothing but steam about how she hates men through-out the entire comic.
How is that good writing? Two words, it isn't.

I never said it was. But I'm not willing to base a 20 year career and countless books on one 22 page issue of an obvious parody (good or not).

I don't have a problem with prostitute characters, I really don't; the problem I have is that Miller always takes one of his re-used formulas for a female character, and slaps a face to it.

I'm assuming you've not really read all of Miller's work. Because that just simply isn't true.

Agreed. That was a rehash of an old joke of his any way, proving again that Miller is incapable of writing anything new, and stepping away from his comfort zone.

I thought the problem with this book, and DKSA was that they weren't like Miller's older work.

[Corrina]

I give you Gail Simone's take on Frank Miller's characters:

"they run the gamut from whore to dead whore."

I like his Sarah Essen in "Year One" and Carrie Kelly in DKR, but those were about twenty years ago.

Then again, most of the characters in this book are two-dimensional and uninteresting, save for the comedy aspect. Which I do find very funny some of the time.

Others, the boob Nazi and the Joker snuff scene are just...well...dull and uninspired.

ETA: Martha Washington was created in the early 1990s, and Elektra even before DKR. Both of those good characters but so were the men in those stories. He seems to have settled into a template and degenerated. Which is too bad because Year One is my favorite Batman story ever.

[CassandraL]

Okay then I guess Miller is more of a horrifically bad writer than a misogynist then; either way I don't like his work.

[Captain Jim]

Let's all try to take it easy and work hard not to make personal attacks on other posters.

GD Batman, maybe you need to take a break from this thread. You always seem very passionate about your defense of Miller (nothing wrong with that), but it always seems to result in personal attacks on other posters. Enough of that. I don't want to start deleting posts again.

[the goddamn batman]

I give you Gail Simone's take on Frank Miller's characters:

"they run the gamut from whore to dead whore."

I like his Sarah Essen in "Year One" and Carrie Kelly in DKR, but those were about twenty years ago.

Then again, most of the characters in this book are two-dimensional and uninteresting, save for the comedy aspect. Which I do find very funny some of the time.

Others, the boob Nazi and the Joker snuff scene are just...well...dull and uninspired.

Jeez, even Gail SImone likes to ignore things that don't support her argument when she gets on the internet.

Then again, I find Gail Simone (as a person) to be rather full of herself most of the time I read anything she's said.

Also? I don't really care for her comics. They, to me, really seem to jsut be the other extreme, which isn't the solution.

Her Batgirl pitch sounded great though. (That was her wasn't it... the angel of the bat thing?)

[CassandraL]

So... you like Frank Miller, and don't think he's full of himself, but you think Gail Simone is...?

[the goddamn batman]

So... you like Frank Miller, and don't think he's full of himself, but you think Gail Simone is...?

I don't think we need to put words in my mouth, thanks.

I never said Miller isn't full of himself. I did say that I don't find his work to be full of misogyny. Thos are different things.;)

[CassandraL]

Sorry I did not mean to put words in your mouth. :)

[the goddamn batman]

It's ok.

I appreciate Gail's intent, I just don't think her work is the answer that she does.

I don't find one extreme to be any better than the other. WHile I may enjoy one more than the other, one isn't the answer to the other. It's balance, and I don't feel it's there in Gail's work. But I'll admit I've not read much of her work, so my opinion is based on pretty limited experience. It never appealed to me, so I've not followed her work.

[mattx110]

Sienkevitz isn't an abstract artist!

[pariah-1972]

Jeez, even Gail SImone likes to ignore things that don't support her argument when she gets on the internet.

Then again, I find Gail Simone (as a person) to be rather full of herself most of the time I read anything she's said.

Also? I don't really care for her comics. They, to me, really seem to jsut be the other extreme, which isn't the solution.

Her Batgirl pitch sounded great though. (That was her wasn't it... the angel of the bat thing?)So it's ok to have one extreme and not the other?
it wouldn't be so bad if everyone and there mom tried to be like Frank Miller i suppose.
i don't think Gail is full of herself anymore than any other comic book writer who has had success.
i wish more writers would be like Gail and not throw in stuff that seems to me to be nothing but shock tactics i would like a balance between the "grim and gritty" and whatever style Gail is doing which i assume is a modern take on the silver age maybe?
and gd batman i don't think we should be comparing comic books and porn they are two different things.
Sienkiewicz may be the greatest artist alive but i can't stand his work.


and most writers i have seen on here ignore things that don't support there arguement.
and i'm saying this as a person who wasn't that crazy about her first issue of Wonder Woman so i think i am impartial.

[the goddamn batman]

Abstract art:

http://images.google.com/images?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=abstract+art&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi

Bill Sienkiewicz:

http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&um=1&hl=en&client=safari&rls=en-us&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=Bill+Sienkiewicz&spell=1

Yeah, not at all the same.

[the goddamn batman]

So it's ok to have one extreme and not the other?

It's ok to be the other extreme. It's NOT ok to think that one extreme is better than the other, or that it's the answer to the other.

it wouldn't be so bad if everyone and there mom tried to be like Frank Miller i suppose.

I dunno.... I think the last 20 years of Batman comics have been rather shitty.

and gd batman i don't think we should be comparing comic books and porn they are two different things.

If you don't see what I was getting at there, or how weird of a comment that was considering your previous comments, then I don't really know what to say.

Sienkiewicz may be the greatest artist alive but i can't stand his work.

I never said you had to like his work. But to say that it has no place in comics? That's like... I dunno.... weird. Your entitled to your opinions, but when they border on trying to exclude something just because you personally don't like it? Man, that's not ok.

and most writers i have seen on here ignore things that don't support there arguement.

Doesn't make it ok. Everyone might be jumping off a bridge today at 5pm, but it's still stupid.

[pariah-1972]

If you don't see what I was getting at there, or how weird of a comment that was considering your previous comments, then I don't really know what to sayI only watch lesbian or playboy type stuff so theres nothing misogynistic about those.
and like i was saying you can't compare the two there different mediums.
all i'm saying about Sienkiewicz is that in my personal opinion i don't think it belongs in a comic book especially a mainstream super hero one.

[mattx110]

all i'm saying about Sienkiewicz is that in my personal opinion i don't think it belongs in a comic book especially a mainstream super hero one.
I like my comics boring and artistically derivative too.

[pariah-1972]

I like my comics boring and artistically derivative too.isn't all art derivative of something else?

[Captain Jim]

Pariah, enough of making fun of Sienkiewicz's name!

[pariah-1972]

Pariah, enough of making fun of Sienkiewicz's name!Sorry Jim i just thought it was funny but i will stop now.
:o

[mattx110]

isn't all art derivative of something else?
not necessarily self-derivative. There's more to art than comics, and it's nice for someone to go "hey, this Will Eisner chap and this Gustav Klimpt guy could make a nice style if someone smushed em together!"

Not "well, i like Neal Adams, Barry Windsor-Smith etc." There's enough guys doing that in comics. If we want to be accepted as serious art because we know we're better than 90% of the art world, we need to be able to cite Leonardo and Giacometti as well as Jack Kirby and Leo O'Mealia.

As an artist though.

[pariah-1972]

not necessarily self-derivative. There's more to art than comics, and it's nice for someone to go "hey, this Will Eisner chap and this Gustav Klimpt guy could make a nice style if someone smushed em together!"

Not "well, i like Neal Adams, Barry Windsor-Smith etc." There's enough guys doing that in comics. If we want to be accepted as serious art because we know we're better than 90% of the art world, we need to be able to cite Leonardo and Giacometti as well as Jack Kirby and Leo O'Mealia.

As an artist though.I don't think comics are ever going to be seen as serious art i'm afraid.

not like a picasso painting.

[the goddamn batman]

Pariah, enough of making fun of Sienkiewicz's name!

:D

Dix caractères au maximum

[the goddamn batman]

I don't think comics are ever going to be seen as serious art i'm afraid.

not like a picasso painting.

Not if we try to exclude actual artists making actual art.

(I think Bill is endlesslly more interesting than Picasso...)

[pariah-1972]

Not if we try to exclude actual artists making actual art.

(I think Bill is endlesslly more interesting than Picasso...)So you don't consider most comic book artists real artists? but Bill is the exception?

[the goddamn batman]

So you don't consider most comic book artists real artists? but Bill is the exception?

When did I say that? They're artists. I'm an artist. The last thing I'd do is slight someone based on style.

What I'm saying is that Bill's art is much more 'fine art' than most people working in comics. Most comic art is 'pop art'. Bill's art, while it certainly has it's roots in comic art, also has a much heavier influence from fine art than most.

[pariah-1972]

When did I say that? They're artists. I'm an artist. The last thing I'd do is slight someone based on style.

What I'm saying is that Bill's art is much more 'fine art' than most people working in comics. Most comic art is 'pop art'. Bill's art, while it certainly has it's roots in comic art, also has a much heavier influence from fine art than most.Like possibly abstract art?;)

[mattx110]

I don't think comics are ever going to be seen as serious art i'm afraid.

not like a picasso painting.
Picasso did some sequential work.

The real artists are already convinced. In my University experience, the best student artists are those with cartooning or comics in their backgrounds. Some teachers are less than accepting, but their overall mentality is such a misunderstanding of what makes something "Cartoony" that we just have to try to educate them, or ignore them. Oddly enough, it may stem from a "modern arti" inferiority complex that causes this current art establishment generation to see more abstract things as needing validation, while maybe Lichtenstein is ok, becuase he supposedly took the best of popular art, and did something to it, when really the opposite is true. Cartooning made him who he was, and is becoming a larger influence on draughtsman every decade, while the current post-modern art attitude is really about stretching medium, and non-representational sculpture, and patterning. Massive geometricism.

Personally, I think compositional analogues to language and music make it evident that comic artist are pulling ahead based on the fact that a "page" is itself a montage that shows time, and spacial relationships. We have "cognates" and "tangent lines" to blend shapes and the ability to dynamically compose on a page something that has a very advanced descriptive grammar.

Repetitive themes, hidden imagery, figurative use of color.
IE: The artist uses circles in multiple ways within the page, and draws a point of relationship where the second instance of the circle has a subject within the first, while there is also a diagonal structure that makes the object of the page the final panel, which is of course a cliff-hanger/suspension That leads to the next splash-page which continues the Circular lens theme, and contains complements to the colors within the previous two instances of this thematic device.

I know, what I'm saying isn't that clear and may be a bit convuluted, but this is something I am developing to understand composition. It can either be a modern treatise on thematic development in art, or suck. I make no guarantees either way.

[pariah-1972]

I don't understand why someone like Scott Kolins is not as heavily praised as Sienk but is obviously influenced by him.

[the goddamn batman]

Like possibly abstract art?;)

He might have an influence from abstract art, but that doens't make him an abstract artist who works in an abstract style.

If you're going to talk about art styles, you should probably know a thing or two about them. The simple fact that Bill draws people pretty much excludes him from the "abstract" category.;)

[pariah-1972]

So that makes him an abstract comic book artist instead of a regular Abstract artist.

[mattx110]

So that makes him an abstract comic book artist instead of a regular Abstract artist.
No, it doesn't! It makes him an expressionist if anything.

edit: the exclamation isn't in anger or anything. It can come off as that, but it's not.

[the goddamn batman]

I don't understand why someone like Scott Kolins is not as heavily praised as Sienk but is obviously influenced by him.

Are you saying that Scott is influenced by Bill or Bill by Scott?

I've never heard Scott mention Bill as an influence, and I don't really see it in his work.

[the goddamn batman]

So that makes him an abstract comic book artist instead of a regular Abstract artist.


Dude... seriously? You don't know ANYTHING about art. I mean, Whickey Tango Foxtrot!?!

Bill isn't an abstract artist. He just isn't. There is no way that Bill's work can be taken as abstract art. Abstract art by nature does NOT depict objects. It's color and mood. It isn't sequential. It doesn't depict people.

Bill would be expressionist or impressionist, but not abstract. Do you even know what abstract means?

Seriously, you're giving me a headache.

[pariah-1972]

Are you saying that Scott is influenced by Bill or Bill by Scott?

I've never heard Scott mention Bill as an influence, and I don't really see it in his work.I see the similarities and other people have too.
scott is pretty new so i imagine he was influenced by bill.
unless he learns to time travel.:p

[pariah-1972]

Dude... seriously? You don't know ANYTHING about art. I mean, Whickey Tango Foxtrot!?!

Bill isn't an abstract artist. He just isn't. There is no way that Bill's work can be taken as abstract art. Abstract art by nature does NOT depict objects. It's color and mood. It isn't sequential. It doesn't depict people.

Bill would be expressionist or impressionist, but not abstract. Do you even know what abstract means?

Seriously, you're giving me a headache.you devised my evil plans:evilsmile

[filthysize]

Damn, this thread is weird.

[Corrina]

I never said Miller isn't full of himself. I did say that I don't find his work to be full of misogyny. Thos are different things.;)

Well, it is full of misogyny. It's just that he tends to write men just as one-note and bad too, lately.

And, you know, saying "I disagree with Gail Simone" or "I don't like her writing" is different from "she's too full of herself."

I don't know about Frank Miller. Won't begin to judge the man. I have no idea if what he writes translates to how he behaves in real life.

But I can judge the writing.

[mattx110]

Well, it is full of misogyny. It's just that he tends to write men just as one-note and bad too, lately.

And, you know, saying "I disagree with Gail Simone" or "I don't like her writing" is different from "she's too full of herself."

I don't know about Frank Miller. Won't begin to judge the man. I have no idea if what he writes translates to how he behaves in real life.

But I can judge the writing.
From what I've seen, he might like to use anachronistic terms occasionally ("doll"), but I've got no evidence one way or the other it translates to male pig-headedness. He seems like a nice polite guy who loves comics, and that's how i'll view him until he starts putting up youtube videos about how women belong in the home.

[the goddamn batman]

Well, it is full of misogyny. It's just that he tends to write men just as one-note and bad too, lately.

Examples, please. Specific ones. Like, actual shit from his books that shows a complete hatred for women. Poorly developed one note female characters does not translate to HATRED.

I have never in my entire time reading Frank Miller's comics seen anything that would suggest he HATES women.

I have never in my entire time hearing about Frank's supposed misogyny seen anyone produce an example that actually backed up the claim either.

And, you know, saying "I disagree with Gail Simone" or "I don't like her writing" is different from "she's too full of herself."

Yes, I do know that. Thank you.

[GRANT!]

Well, it is full of misogyny. It's just that he tends to write men just as one-note and bad too, lately.

And, you know, saying "I disagree with Gail Simone" or "I don't like her writing" is different from "she's too full of herself."

I don't know about Frank Miller. Won't begin to judge the man. I have no idea if what he writes translates to how he behaves in real life.

But I can judge the writing.

I think there's sexism in his work. Women are still defined by how the men in the stories see them but I don't get the impression he thinks women are inferior to men or any sort of hostility towards women. Frank seems to have a genuine love for his female characters even if he's looking at them through a what Laura Mulvey would call a "Male gaze."

So while not the most progressive guy when it comes to women issues he's far from Dave Sim.

[pariah-1972]

Ok sticking my neck out here a bit,
i really had to roll my eyes when during Sin City the little girl that Bruce Willis saved turned out to be a hot stripper that was all hot for his old man bones just for saving her life.
i'm not sure if she just wanted to "thank him" sexually for saving her life or she was actually in love with a cop she didn't even know,
but either way it came across as being written by someone who doesn't really understand females at all and it sort of came across as a juvenile male fantasy to be honest.

[GRANT!]

Ok sticking my neck out here a bit,
i really had to roll my eyes when during Sin City the little girl that Bruce Willis saved turned out to be a hot stripper that was all hot for his old man bones just for saving her life.
i'm not sure if she just wanted to "thank him" sexually for saving her life or she was actually in love with a cop she didn't even know,
but either way it came across as being written by someone who doesn't really understand females at all and it sort of came across as a juvenile male fantasy to be honest.

Nancy was in love with Hartigan. I agree there's a male fantasy aspect about it but I don't think it's completely unreasonable to believe that a woman to fall for a man she met as a child. Especially since this man saved her from a really horrible fate.

[pariah-1972]

Nancy was in love with Hartigan. I agree there's a male fantasy aspect about it but I don't think it's completely unreasonable to believe that a woman to fall for a man she met as a child. Especially since this man saved her from a really horrible fate.Well considering in real life how old he must have been it's kinda creepy.
i don't think too many women fall in love with a guy just for rescuing them when they were a child..

[OverMaster]

I like his Sarah Essen in "Year One" and Carrie Kelly in DKR, but those were about twenty years ago.

Don't forget the new female comissioner. To me, she and Martha Washington are the two best female characters Miller has ever invented.

A shame he's fallen so low after those times...

[Violently Apathetic]

Well considering in real life how old he must have been it's kinda creepy.
i don't think too many women fall in love with a guy just for rescuing them when they were a child..

My father is only a few years younger than Hartigan and I remember when watching the Sin City movie with him he actually said 'Oh, gross. Don't do that!' aloud when Hartigan returned Nancy's kiss. I don't think Nancy's crush on Hartigan was out there at all, really, but having him reciprocate, even momentarily, really upped the creepy factor. Nancy viewed him as a sort of savior, almost a paragon of heroism and masculinity, her crush on him made sense. He thought of her as a victim, a little girl and possibly even a daughter, which makes any sexual attraction look awkward and sick. I feel the same way about the sexual relationship implied between Carrie and Bats in DKSA.

Not that I think it's misogyny, or even sexism, I just thought it was...icky (I need a thesaurus).

[Mia]

Yeah, I know exactly what you said, you don't have to do quotes and re-quotes :rolleyes: All I ever see from you is complaining about this book pretty much from the beginning and you answer by saying Well, it's Batman, as if there's some shortage of him in comics.

I'm sorry, but it makes no sense to me to continuously shell out 3 dollars for a comic from the start when you hate it just because you know, it's Batman. Just drop it. I'd understand if this series was just starting, but this has been around for over a year.

And yes, it did have to do with the question at hand, if you hate it so much why keep going, I'd understand if Batman was at a shortage, but he's not, 4 other ongoings (which probably going to suit your tastes of the character).


No you couldn't possibly have known or read what I said, otherwise you would have not have questioned me to begin with. I clearly mentioned that a big factor as to why I buy the book is because of Jim Lee's artwork. I'm a big fan of Mr. Lee's artwork and I specifically enjoy his rendition of Batman.

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=4830444&postcount=19

Also I don't know where you came up with that non-sense that 'I've been criticising the book from 'the begining'. What that is not at all true.


Why DC gave WW to Gail Simone when Frank Miller clearly should be writing her is beyond me.



Frankly why I buy this book (or any other book for that matter) is really none of your business or concern. And why you've made it so is beyond me.

[Mia]

I think there's sexism in his work. Women are still defined by how the men in the stories see them but I don't get the impression he thinks women are inferior to men or any sort of hostility towards women. Frank seems to have a genuine love for his female characters even if he's looking at them through a what Laura Mulvey would call a "Male gaze."

So while not the most progressive guy when it comes to women issues he's far from Dave Sim.

I think it depends on the woman. I think there are some he treats carefully. But others whom are dispensible. I still maintain I enjoyed his WW even if it was over the top.

[pariah-1972]

Didn't he kill off Elektra in her first appearance?

[The Batman]

My father is only a few years younger than Hartigan and I remember when watching the Sin City movie with him he actually said 'Oh, gross. Don't do that!' aloud when Hartigan returned Nancy's kiss. I don't think Nancy's crush on Hartigan was out there at all, really, but having him reciprocate, even momentarily, really upped the creepy factor. Nancy viewed him as a sort of savior, almost a paragon of heroism and masculinity, her crush on him made sense. He thought of her as a victim, a little girl and possibly even a daughter, which makes any sexual attraction look awkward and sick. I feel the same way about the sexual relationship implied between Carrie and Bats in DKSA.

Not that I think it's misogyny, or even sexism, I just thought it was...icky (I need a thesaurus).

If that's anything, it's misandry since it portrays men as willing to toss any sense of morality or propriety out the window at the sight or hot young flesh. Really though, it's not even that. It just a way of humanizing Hartigan and poking fun at almost 60 years of hero/sidekick innuendo.

Reading through this thread though I've come away with the impression that ASB&R #8 is probably as fun as the rest of the series has been so far and that alot of people are either unfamiliar with the idea of misogyny, Frank Miller's work, or both.

As someone that's read damn near everything Miller's ever written, I'd be pretty hard pressed to find an example of straight-faced honest mysogny. Alot of his women are strong and capable. Even the hookers in Sin City are tough broads who aren't being exploited or pushed around. If people can't get past sex worker = weak in their own heads, I'm not sure how that's Miller's problem. If you read his stuff, the fact that these aren't weak characters is all pretty obvious which is why I think that there's a lack of understanding or knowledge somewhere along the line.

[The Batman]

I think it depends on the woman. I think there are some he treats carefully. But others whom are dispensible. I still maintain I enjoyed his WW even if it was over the top.

So then he's like most every writer who treats some characters carefully and others as disposable regardless of their gender.

[Punch]

Didn't he kill off Elektra in her first appearance?

Nope. She was around for about a year or so in the Daredevil comic.

As for Hartigan, Nancy was in love with him, but it was in an immature way. She was in love with the ideal of Hartigan. Remember all she knew of him was that he saved her life. She then started writing letters to him every week, but obviously couldn't get any back. It was more like a crush, For his part he was in jail, solitary confinement, for a very long time. Considering he only kissed her, I think he handled himself pretty damn well.

I'm still waiting for the examples of misogyny.

[Punch]

If that's anything, it's misandry since it portrays men as willing to toss any sense of morality or propriety out the window at the sight or hot young flesh. Really though, it's not even that. It just a way of humanizing Hartigan and poking fun at almost 60 years of hero/sidekick innuendo.

Reading through this thread though I've come away with the impression that ASB&R #8 is probably as fun as the rest of the series has been so far and that alot of people are either unfamiliar with the idea of misogyny, Frank Miller's work, or both.

As someone that's read damn near everything Miller's ever written, I'd be pretty hard pressed to find an example of straight-faced honest mysogny. Alot of his women are strong and capable. Even the hookers in Sin City are tough broads who aren't being exploited or pushed around. If people can't get past sex worker = weak in their own heads, I'm not sure how that's Miller's problem. If you read his stuff, the fact that these aren't weak characters is all pretty obvious which is why I think that there's a lack of understanding or knowledge somewhere along the line.
Great post. People do equate stripper/hooker with victim. I do believe that people dismiss Miller because they just don't understand what he's doing, or why.

[the goddamn batman]

Excellent post The Batman. I've said the same thing a lot of times... but as we're still going over this, it's probably (as my comments have) falling on deaf ears.

I'm still waiting for the examples of misogyny.

As am I. But I don't suggest we hold our breaths.

It really deeply saddens me that these women (and men for that matter) accusing Frank Miller of misogyny don't seem to know what misogyny actually is. That's a crying shame.

But, shitting on Frank Miller is the new cool. Everybody's doing it.

[the goddamn batman]

I feel the same way about the sexual relationship implied between Carrie and Bats in DKSA.


I've never felt there was any sexual relationship or tension between them. I think that one scene where she hugs him and he's naked... it's the nudity that freaks people out. Because we're only naked when we're being sexual. At least, in this country... as far as media is concerned. It's how we've been trained to look at things. It's an ingrained filter through which we view things. Out of habit, you know? But I've never taken that tone from that scene.

Batman, even Miller's Batman wouldn't do something like that. It's just not something in the character, and you've got to understand that to read the scene properly. It's not a sexual scene.

[The Batman]

I think that they're talking about DKSA, where she's a little more grown up and he's known her longer, not the Batman/Carrie stuff from DKR.

[the goddamn batman]

Oh... I'll have to look that over when I get home tonight. I don't recall anything in that book either. But I haven't read that in some time.

[The Batman]

I think it was the parts at the end when Dick roughed her up and then Batman saved her that are leading people in that direction. Personally I didn't read it that way, I figure by that point in his career Miller-Bats is too consumed by his war to care about sex.

[mattx110]

Oh... I'll have to look that over when I get home tonight. I don't recall anything in that book either. But I haven't read that in some time.
The badguy seemed rather upset that Bruce treated Carrie like his child.

I don't think Bruce at that point bothered with sexual desires and all that. He had a fricken world to save.

Damn.

His heart couldn't take that kind of strain anyway. His first stop after DKSA was probably to get a pacemaker.
edit:
was still typing my post at the time, but The Batman is correct.

[pariah-1972]

I have given you examples of his misogyny earlier if you don't want to accept that that's fine doesn't really bother me.
there are lots of times my favorite creators get dissed and i don't go around attacking people or even most of the time defending them,
so i really don't understand why some of you people act like Miller can do no wrong.
nobody is perfect we all have faults even people who we consider "genius" artists.
but then i have been defending Burton right and left lately so maybe i am not as immune as i would like to think i am?

[The Batman]

No one is saying Miller can do no wrong, we're just asking that if you are going to go after the guy at least have some firsthand knowledge of his body of work and a decent grasp on what mysogyny is. I'm sorry but alot of your examples show neither.

Franly, saying "Emma is a cow" demonstrates a more mysogynistic attitude than anything Miller's ever done in his work.

[pariah-1972]

No one is saying Miller can do no wrong, we're just asking that if you are going to go after the guy at least have some firsthand knowledge of his body of work and a decent grasp on what mysogyny is. I'm sorry but alot of your examples show neither.

Franly, saying "Emma is a cow" demonstrates a more mysogynistic attitude than anything Miller's ever done in his work.But see that was just a joker cause i got into it with some people over some outfits Emma used to wear.

but i love how you tried to turn that around on me, good job !

[The Batman]

Right, you joke around about women being cows while Miller writes stories about strong beautful independent women and you want us to believe that he's the mysogynist?

[pariah-1972]

Right, you joke around about women being cows while Miller writes stories about strong independent women and you want us to believe that he's the mysogynist?I joked about one woman being a cow not ALL women maybe you need to look up what misogyny is?
and i really don't know why you are making this personal but i really don't appreciate it.

[IamtheRock3]

Excellent post The Batman. I've said the same thing a lot of times... but as we're still going over this, it's probably (as my comments have) falling on deaf ears.



As am I. But I don't suggest we hold our breaths.

It really deeply saddens me that these women (and men for that matter) accusing Frank Miller of misogyny don't seem to know what misogyny actually is. That's a crying shame.

But, shitting on Frank Miller is the new cool. Everybody's doing it.

The Fact that most women in His books are either WHORES or DEAD whores

I dont mean whores as it open their legs wide, but actual whores. With very few acception

And most are insane.

I mean I LOVE miller stuff, but come on

[The Batman]

Yup, in Sin City, alot of his female characters are involved in sex work. Almost all of his male characters are involved in crime too. Thing is those "whores" are also strong capable women who are often calling the shots.

That you can't see past the "whore" label to the strong person underneath is your hang up, not Miller's.

[IamtheRock3]

Yup, in Sin City, alot of his female characters are involved in sex work. Almost all of his male characters are involved in crime too. Thing is those "whores" are also strong capable women who are often calling the shots.

That you can't see past the "whore" label to the strong person underneath is your hang up, not Miller's.

Thing is how many strong capable Women he write
How many weak Women he write


It either about even right, Or more strong women then weak

Now ask how many with EITHER of those traits he writes that are NOT whores

he even made women whores that orginly werent

like Typhoid mary
And Catwoman

how about writine a strong women that also NOT A WHORE

Very few of those in miller books

It not my hang up...serious dude writes a LOT of whores. Dont feel bad about calling that out


even in sin City

Harrigan, Dwight, and MARV

more varried then any women miller writers, and those character werent exactly DEEP

[The Batman]

Yeah he does. Given that most of his stories are set in a hyper-seedy noir world it's not too surprising that there's alot of crime and corruption going on. The problem isn't him writing alot of characters that are involved in sex work, it's ignoring how tough and smart and independent these characters are and just going right from "hooker" to mysogyny.

Sure he made Catwoman a hooker but he made her a hooker who beat the crap out of her pimp and took herself and Holly out of the life. Is that more or less mysogynist than her other origin as an amnesiac flight attendent turned jewel thief? How is she weaker for having been a prostitute who beat up her pimp and got her and herself out of the life than when she was just a jewel thief?

How about we look at some of Miller's other female characters. Casey McKenna (she's the female lead from Ronin), Martha Washington, Wonder Woman (or is she a whore because she had sex with Superman?), Carrie Kelly, Miko, Elektra - all strong, all capable.

[pariah-1972]

I don't know why people think all prostitutes are weak.

and Frank Miller is not the only comic book writer with misogynist tendencies hell you could throw that accusation against most of them.

so i am not singling him out even tho i think he is one of the most extreme.

[IamtheRock3]

Yeah he does. Given that most of his stories are set in a hyper-seedy noir world it's not too surprising that there's alot of crime and corruption going on. The problem isn't him writing alot of characters that are involved in sex work, it's ignoring how tough and smart and independent these characters are and just going right from "hooker" to mysogyny.

Sure he made Catwoman a hooker but he made her a hooker who beat the crap out of her pimp and took herself and Holly out of the life. Is that more or less mysogynist than her other origin as an amnesiac flight attendent turned jewel thief? How is she weaker for having been a prostitute who beat up her pimp and got her and herself out of the life than when she was just a jewel thief?

How about we look at some of Miller's other female characters. Casey McKenna (she's the female lead from Ronin), Martha Washington, Wonder Woman (or is she a whore because she had sex with Superman?), Carrie Kelly, Miko, Elektra - all strong, all capable.


Thing though Catwoman was a TOUGH as nails IDENEPENT woman BEFOR she made her a Hooker

but for some reason he felt the need to SHOE horn that in.

Yes seedy world of noir has hookers. Has pimps to. But he doesnt choose to make all the men PIMPS and Jons now does he. I watch a lot of noir movies. Not ALL the chick was a whore. Some were. But not everyone. Some were reporter, thies, murders, temptress, rich dad daughter, wife, gangster girlfriend, writers, girl who knew to much, singer, and yes and occasional theif. Jewl theif was part of Catwoman's character for years, He actully didnt change that part. Just has an extra orgin to it. Hooker wasnt part of her orgin at the start. He added that part. He kind of forced it in

And yes making her a Hooker...is more sexist then a flight attendernt. both can be sexist...but yea...hooker a bit more sure

I wouldnt bring it up a lot if he didnt do it so often

First of WONDER Woman not his character. So it much harder to shoe horn the whore thing in, sense she on the JLA (Although sure the Amazons will have some whore type buisness going) But He did make her an INSANE man hating lunatic. Who only calm down and got hot after good smack by Superman. Or stomp that made her nose bleed. Apparently that all she needs to shut up up and get her hot. Which a lot of his women are. Either damsels or loons


Hey I LIKE miller

Just for (besides a few acception) he makes his women crazed whores


Thats good for him

I like MACHO men and hot women stories

I also LIKE hot...HOT porn

Doesnt change the fact both can be sexist

[IamtheRock3]

I don't know why people think all prostitutes are weak.

and Frank Miller is not the only comic book writer with misogynist tendencies hell you could throw that accusation against most of them.

so i am not singling him out even tho i think he is one of the most extreme.

Oh dont think All are weak

just saying dude write a lot of women that mostly in the LADIES OF THE NIGHT proffesion

and think that worth mentioning in this little debate

[pariah-1972]

Oh dont think All are weak

just saying dude write a lot of women that mostly in the LADIES OF THE NIGHT proffesion

and think that worth mentioning in this little debate

I agree completly.

[The Batman]

Once again, why does prostitution lead automatically to mysogyny?

Can someone take me through that train of thought? Maybe then I can see where it goes completely off the rails.

You're ignoring the world that Miller sets his stories in (a seedy underworld where prostitution is going to be common) and you're putting the character in a box based on their profession. That's not something Miller has done at all. For him prostitution is what they do, not who they are. If you can't get past that, that's not Miller's bag, that's yours.

[filthysize]

I generally forget about 5 minutes into reading any Sin City story that the women are prostitutes, because that's not even what they do in the stories. It's just something they have to take on behind the scenes to make a living. I don't recall any Sin City story where the girls do any actual whoring.

[pariah-1972]

Once again, why does prostitution lead automatically to mysogyny?

Can someone take me through that train of thought? Maybe then I can see where it goes completely off the rails.

You're ignoring the world that Miller sets his stories in (a seedy underworld where prostitution is going to be common) and you're putting the character in a box based on their profession. That's not something Miller has done at all. For him prostitution is what they do, not who they are. If you can't get past that, that's not Miller's bag, that's yours.i give up i'm tired of arguing about this and i'm tired of the personal attacks and i am tired of having to defend my point of view with facts and then when those facts aren't good enough they get dismissed or follow it up with more name calling.

[The Batman]

Where exactly are these personal insults and where exactly are these supposed facts?

Pointing out all the stuff you're ignoring to jump from prostitute to mysogyny isn't an insult and saying there's a prostitute in a story doesn't make it a fact that the guy's a mysogynist.

[IamtheRock3]

i give up i'm tired of arguing about this and i'm tired of the personal attacks and i am tired of having to defend my point of view with facts and then when those facts aren't good enough they get dismissed or follow it up with more name calling.

In fainress while I agree with you. I havent really heard name Calling






TO OTHERS


ok, not putting him in the box. Maybe he NOT all mysogyn


But the fact that he writes 70 percent of women (being generous) As hookers and turns charcters into HOOKERS, kind of least lead to what I and other saying about it being Sexist. Enough where the claims he mysonistic not COMPLETLY taken out of air

Can you AT least see, why might least have an argument that is mysonitic is they read miller works and not be have the argument COMPLETLY taking out of your booty area

What I ask can you at least see why someone make think these things

Cause I am willing to just agree to disagree at this point

[GRANT!]

Well considering in real life how old he must have been it's kinda creepy.
i don't think too many women fall in love with a guy just for rescuing them when they were a child..

Well he still looked pretty good in the movie (though he was seventy or something in the comic). And women have fallen for men much older then them for various reasons. It's not that out of the ordinary.

I think the point was Hartigan was the only example Nancy had of a decent heroic guy (and she really didn't meet too many of those) who sacrificed everything to protect her. He sort of exemplified to her what a man should be. So I don't think it's unreasonable to expect she would develop feelings for him.

[The Batman]

Yup, if you ignore how the characters are portrayed in the actual stories and just go from the incorrect and exaggerated statement that "the majority of women in Frank Miller's stories are whores" then I guess I could see why someone might think he's a bit of a mysogynist.

Given the fact that that opinion is based on ignorance, preconceptions that Miller likely doesn't share and some down right bad facts I hope you can understand why I think that calling Frank Miller a mysogynist is completely wrong.

[pariah-1972]

Where exactly are these personal insults and where exactly are these supposed facts?

Pointing out all the stuff you're ignoring to jump from prostitute to mysogyny isn't an insult and saying there's a prostitute in a story doesn't make it a fact that the guy's a mysogynist.U have been called a misogynist and a republcan/conservative in this thread and then being harrased for liking kelly clarkson.
i have posted my opinions and facts as have others but you keep changing the goal or subject and ignoring what everyone has said so i am tired of the bs on this thread.
he turned Wonder Woman who is a feminist icon to many women into a man hating shrew who instantly jumped Supermans bones the minute he slapped her if thats not enough for you then i am sorry

ignoring Sin City which was 90% hookers the other one was a hot lesbian with perfect tits and the other was a exotic dancer/stripper
the latest Batman had two women one who was drugged and raped and the other with a crewcut and swastika's on her boobs these maybe "strong" women to you but they scream to me as someone who has a lot of personal issues with women
just like a lot of people speculate that with Chuck Austen who makes all of his women into cut out characters who are either insane or horny as hell and slutty.
if this doesn't fit your definition of misogyny then i don't know what to tell you i guess me and i am the rock all the females and everyone else who has agreed are just plumb crazy and wrong and you who are Frank Miller apologists are in the right.:rolleyes:

[pariah-1972]

Oh and i am officially done with this thread cause im tired the b.s on this thread and i don't want to get reprimanded again.

[IamtheRock3]

Yup, if you ignore how the characters are portrayed in the actual stories and just go from the incorrect and exaggerated statement that "the majority of women in Frank Miller's stories are whores" then I guess I could see why someone might think he's a bit of a mysogynist.

Given the fact that that opinion is based on ignorance, preconceptions that Miller likely doesn't share and some down right bad facts I hope you can understand why I think that calling Frank Miller a mysogynist is completely wrong.

Let me explain most miller POWERFULL women.

Lets take character like GAIL

There mostly DOMINATRIX type fantasy, with a HINT of switch, can be tame by HARD MAN

And he does it well. There good stories

Rap is good music

both can be mysogynist



Ummm are the MAJORITY of miller girls...NOT whores or least in the sex trade, when you add them up. Think they are


heck dont think you even DENIED that was a case, there whore. Just argu that fact doesnt make it sexist

[The Batman]

I'm not saying that they're not sex workers, I'm saying that being a sex worker is just what they do (barely since it doesn't appear much in the stories really), not who they are. That's the problem with the Frank Miller is a mysogynist argument, it slaps a label on his female characters, mostly the ones in Sin City, and then does look past that label to see how those characters are actually protrayed in the story.


Sex work doesn't automatically equal mysogyny. Gail doing what Dwight asks, because she loves him and would do anything for him, isn't mysogyny.

[IamtheRock3]

I'm not saying that they're not sex workers, I'm saying that being a sex worker is just what they do (barely since it doesn't appear much in the stories really), not who they are. That's the problem with the Frank Miller is a mysogynist argument, it slaps a label on his female characters, mostly the ones in Sin City, and then does look past that label to see how those characters are actually protrayed in the story.


Sex work doesn't automatically equal mysogyny. Gail doing what Dwight asks, because she loves him and would do anything for him, isn't mysogyny.


I doesnt ALWAYS lead to it

But when you have MOST of the women in the sex trade (INCLUDING charcter that werent in it befor miller started writing them) then yea say it a bit sexist

Doesnt mean miller going home slapping his wife, or that it should be banned, or it even a bad book

but it sexist

Dude write from a Horny action loving man point of views, aint nothing wrong with it actully

just stating what I think is true about the story


I mean they had Wonder Woman a MAN hater, who gets off by being slapped

I mean COME ON

[The Batman]

U have been called a misogynist and a republcan/conservative in this thread and then being harrased for liking kelly clarkson.
i have posted my opinions and facts as have others but you keep changing the goal or subject and ignoring what everyone has said so i am tired of the bs on this thread.
he turned Wonder Woman who is a feminist icon to many women into a man hating shrew who instantly jumped Supermans bones the minute he slapped her if thats not enough for you then i am sorry

ignoring Sin City which was 90% hookers the other one was a hot lesbian with perfect tits and the other was a exotic dancer/stripper
the latest Batman had two women one who was drugged and raped and the other with a crewcut and swastika's on her boobs these maybe "strong" women to you but they scream to me as someone who has a lot of personal issues with women
just like a lot of people speculate that with Chuck Austen who makes all of his women into cut out characters who are either insane or horny as hell and slutty.
if this doesn't fit your definition of misogyny then i don't know what to tell you i guess me and i am the rock all the females and everyone else who has agreed are just plumb crazy and wrong and you who are Frank Miller apologists are in the right.:rolleyes:

Can I assume you think Frank Miller is a misandrist too? I ask because nearly all the male characters in his stories are criminals, thugs, psychos or some combination of the three. They're often portrayed as greedy, lecherous, weak, selfish, corrupt, and evil. Alot of them get beat up and some of them even get killed. Hell, he's portraying men as creatures who will rape people to death.

So, do you think Frank Miller is a misandrist?

[IamtheRock3]

Can I assume you think Frank Miller is a misandrist too? I ask because nearly all the male characters in his stories are criminals, thugs, psychos or some combination of the three. They're often portrayed as greedy, lecherous, weak, selfish, corrupt, and evil. Alot of them get beat up and some of them even get killed. Hell, he's portraying men as creatures who will rape people to death.

So, do you think Frank Miller is a misandrist?

I tell you one thing they got more VARIED Jobs by your OWN statments you just made right now

He didnt turn RIDDLER and KINGPIN into MALE prositutes

but did Catwoman and Typhoid


Both scenario would fit the SEEDY city as well. But he aint going to do that now is he.

Heck of all the heroes he started writing that he didnt create, I bet not one was turn into a male prositute

but 2 of the women he started writing did

[The Batman]

I doesnt ALWAYS lead to it

But when you have MOST of the women in the sex trade (INCLUDING charcter that werent in it befor miller started writing them) then yea say it a bit sexist

Doesnt mean miller going home slapping his wife, or that it should be banned, or it even a bad book

but it sexist

Dude write from a Horny action loving man point of views, aint nothing wrong with it actully

just stating what I think is true about the story


I mean they had Wonder Woman a MAN hater, who gets off by being slapped

I mean COME ON


Wonder Woman didn't hate men, just weak willed men who didn't do anything more than drool over her or try to squirm their way into her star-studded panties. Miller's Diana is a warrior woman who respects will and force and assertion. It wasn't that she got off on being slapped, it was that she liked having someone who was willing to stand up to her. It fits right in with Miller's characterization of Wonder Woman from DKSA where she got ticked off by Superman acting all broken and weak. She's a strong woman who wants an equally strong man. Again, I'm sure how that's mysogyny.

[IamtheRock3]

She saw a man pushed them aside and called them walking SPERM banks

And was talking down the mans worlds


REGULAR WW is not like that. She broke orders of the Amazons and went to the man world cause it worth saving, even thoug she had some promblems with the mans world


Miller a bit more one note


A true Warrior wouldnt let someone get away with raising thier hand to them. Cause they know if they let them, it will happen again.

But hey neither of us are warriors so who knows

[The Batman]

The guy she pushed aside, IIRC, was fat and a little sloppy looking wasn't he? Probably not a good candidate to win any will power or assertiveness awards? Probably not a match for a WONDER Woman you might say?

That's why Superman got away with it and why it got the reaction that it did. She knows that she's met her match, someone who not only can stand up to her, but will. Someone worthy of her respect and companionship.

ASB&R is seven different kinds of over-the-top and the case can be made that there's some out of character for the regular DCU portrayals there but again, over-the-top and out of character is not the same as mysogyny.

Neither in being a bit one note for that matter.

[IamtheRock3]

The guy she pushed aside, IIRC, was fat and a little sloppy looking wasn't he? Probably not a good candidate to win any will power or assertiveness awards? Probably not a match for a WONDER Woman you might say?

That's why Superman got away with it and why it got the reaction that it did. She knows that she's met her match, someone who not only can stand up to her, but will. Someone worthy of her respect and companionship.

ASB&R is seven different kinds of over-the-top and the case can be made that there's some out of character for the regular DCU portrayals there but again, over-the-top and out of character is not the same as mysogyny.

Neither in being a bit one note for that matter.

Most Abused women can say THEY MET there match, getting off a Guy fantasy

it a JUSTIFICATION for some dude Fantasy of TAMING THE WILD BEAST

That what a HOT BAD/wild GIRL really wants is some bad ass, to come around being bad ass and grab her by the wrist and BANG her brains out

Aint nothing wrong with that FANTASY

but that what the fantasy is

it over the top in mysogmy way

really dont see how you can see how that can be viewed as Sexy, That What I dont understnad

I can see how YOU can think it not
But now how you cant see how others might think so

Given the bits of evidence, that alone damaging, but put together VERY damaging

[The Batman]

Oh and about that Catwoman as hooker thing. The more I think about it the better I think it makes her character. Before that, she was someone who was either too lazy or too bored to make an honest living so she decided to be a jewel thief. A fine origin I guess but hardly a ringing endorsement for the virtues of woman. With the Miller prostitute origin, not only does Selina seem stronger because she has to over come a good deal of adversity - once again she beats the crap out of her pimp and takes her and Holly out of the life - but the life of crime she progresses to makes more sense since she'd probably have alot of doors closed to her (she might not have even been able to get a job as a flight attendent) because of her past.

I'm not sure where the contempt for women is in that story.

[The Batman]

Most Abused women can say THEY MET there match, getting off a Guy fantasy

it a JUSTIFICATION for some dude Fantasy of TAMING THE WILD BEAST

That what a HOT BAD/wild GIRL really wants is some bad ass, to come around being bad ass and grab her by the wrist and BANG her brains out

Aint nothing wrong with that FANTASY

but that what the fantasy is

it over the top in mysogmy way

really dont see how you can see how that can be viewed as Sexy, That What I dont understnad

I can see how YOU can think it not
But now how you cant see how others might think so

Given the bits of evidence, that alone damaging, but put together VERY damaging

Except that's not the case. Wonder Woman's at least as much an aggressor in the relationship as Superman is. Read DKSA to see more of the dynamics of this relationship. Miller being self-referential but not self contained isn't good, it also isn't mysogyny.

Again, I can see why people jump to this conclusion. It's because they're basing it on bad facts, incomplete evidence, and some real misunderstandings.

[the goddamn batman]

@ The Batman... awesome. I was at work all day and out with friends all night. Obviously I missed some action here. Glad someone is fighting the good fight.

[Captain Jim]

seems to me we're just going around in circles here and generating more heat than light. i think it's time to move on. does anyone have anything else to say specifically about #8, or is it time to close the thread?

[The Batman]

Specifically about #8, I think that Miller ay have made a mistake introducing the idea of practical concerns surrounding superhero costumes in this world. I mean, if Batman is worried about a hood, how does he excuse the bare legs? I know in Year One the Batsuit wasn't that advanced and Batman took a couple of bullets, but here we've seen that the suit has been upgraded. In #2 it had sleeping gas vents and I don't think it's unreasonable to think that there's been some sort of bulletproofing added.

Do we think that All-Star Batman is so far gone that he'd purposefully use Dick as a target or tell him to suck it up because getting shot is part of the job?

[Darth Joker]

I don't think that having some female characters as prostitutes is a problem in and of itself. I think the problem is that Miller sometimes has an overabundance of such characters to the point where you suspect/think that...

1) The fictional world that these prostitutes live in is very patriarchial since you have a hard time finding many notable female characters who aren't prostitutes. In a world where women have exactly the same career opportunities as men, I wouldn't expect to see this many prostitutes.

2) Miller has a hard time writing female characters outside of a certain very limited range.

Now, this could be an issue of writer range, and not mysogyny, per se, but I can see where some would find it mysogynystic.

[The Batman]

You've got to take into account the kind of world Sin City is. It's a world that's supposed to be full of criminals, cops, and prostitutes. That's one of those facts that I keep mentioning people are ignoring. One of the other ones is that even though the characters are ostensibly prostitutes, they seem to do everything but actual prostitution in the stories. If all you're going to do is react to that inaccurate label, you're doing the character, the story, Miller, and yourself a disservice.

How about Miller's other stuff? How many female characters are prostitutes in the gritty world of Miller's Batman stuff? One? Two if we count Holly? And the case can be made that Catwoman becomes a stronger character for it.

How about when Miller gets away from the gritty underworld stuff. Was Ronin full of prostitutes? The female lead in that was security chief Casey McKenna. She was as strong and independent as any of the boys. How about Big Guy and Rusty the Boy Robot? Hardboiled? The Martha Washington stuff? Was Martha a prostitute? Was she weak?

It seems that people are just over-reacting to Miller's work without actually reading it, or thinking about what they've read at least. The connection between prostitute and mysogynist just doesn't make sense when you read the way those characters are actually portrayed in the story. That's the readers hang up, that's their mysogynist impulse, not Miller's.

[Punch]

A case could be made that Catwoman isn't a prostitute in Year One but a dominatrix, but Jim is right this thread is off track.

I love this series, but unless Miller plans to stay on it for a long time, it needs to start moving. Hopefully The Joker is the last of the major character introductions.

[The Batman]

Yeah it has and I owe Jim an apology for my part in running this thread off the rails.

Sorry Jim.

[king911]

It's quite "easy to see how Grayson might end up hating Batman, in DKR2 after the way that he is treated in All-Star Batman and Robin #2." . Batman could be held responsible for Grayson's madness of which the "radical gene therapy" provided by Luthor is just an extra feature.

there is a metod to millers madness

[Nefarius]

Well,Miller introduced the Goddamn Joker.While i don't like this version(is so unjokerish)i have to agree that his costume is cool.

[the goddamn batman]

seems to me we're just going around in circles here and generating more heat than light. i think it's time to move on. does anyone have anything else to say specifically about #8, or is it time to close the thread?

I think this series is largely wasted potential. That's about it.

[ni8shadow]

Don't know if this was mentioned, but I was reading DKR and I think I found the "origin" the infamous "g#@Da#$" Batman quote. It's where we see the mutants about to kill, or whatever, that missing heir to the chewing gum throne, and they hear the door creek and they shoot at it, only to realize it was a giant bat. That said bat attacks one of the mutants and while he is being attatcked the other mutants says "it's only a g#@ Da@# bat.."

The appearance of Bruno got me looking for more nods to DKR and I think this might be one. Or maybe not :confused:

I hope the series keeps going. I kinda think I know where Miller is taking this. Young Batman realizing he can kick @$$ and letting that get the better of him and Robin will be the cause of him changing attitudes. He already is making a small switch from glorified @$$ to father figure in #8. Small change, but change none the less.

Great forum here with great opinions and discussions.

[Captain Jim]

Welcome aboard, ni8shadow. :)

[Sizzle]

This was probably my favorite issue so far. I think Dick is definetly wearing down Bruce. Though I also think Bruce is laying it on tough on Dick trying to prepare him for "the war."

Dick is kind of a little dick. Maybe it's a reaction to Batman, maybe it's just because he's been thrust into this adult world all of a sudden. I more prefer Dick as the Peter Parker of the DCU attitudewise.

I liked the Joker. Insane guys need luvin' too.

I thought Miller was laying it on pretty thick with Bruce's treatment and opinions of Hal. I can buy that Hal is all bravado, will, and confidence, and not the brightest guy, but Miller almost made him out to be mentally handicapped. I geeked out big time at Bruce's comment on being the smartest kid in class.

[Laughing Mask]

frank miller has gone mad!!!

mad i tell you!!!!!!

mad!!!!!!!!

[ni8shadow]

Madnesss?! THIS!!!!! IS!!!!! MILLLLEEEERRRRR!!!!!! :evilsmile

Had to do it. Especially after watching those "I'm a Marvel and I'm a DC" Parodies on youtube!!! Luthor rocks!!

*On another note...may sound like a newb thing...but then again. I am one here...how can you make it so everytime you post you can leave a quote at the bottom?

[Ironman2978]

I like book

Batman being more of a fatherfigure

diick actually being robin

fearless and brainless Hal

and serious yet tolly insane and perverted Joker

[the goddamn batman]

*On another note...may sound like a newb thing...but then again. I am one here...how can you make it so everytime you post you can leave a quote at the bottom?

It's in your user control panel... click "User CP" at the top of the page, and on the left is the "Edit Signature" option.:)

[Ramiel]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the original Joker, like his first few appearances or so like a grim kind of guy? Not to this extreme, but I always thought he was like a grim individual

[TROUBLEZ]

I haven't bought an issue since #2 but after flipping through this one I decided to buy it.

This issue was like a breath of fresh air. The Jokers seriousness was a little creepy, Bruno is back!, the Little Nemo line was funny, editors note, "Nuts I'm talking to myself," a Catwoman who seems like an actual villain...

I also liked how he says, "I've never been all that good with people." I know it only makes sense with the previous crazy ish he said, but he finally sounds like Batman (mostly).

very good issue to get back any readers who, like myself, gave up on All Star Bats earlier on.

[Nefarius]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the original Joker, like his first few appearances or so like a grim kind of guy? Not to this extreme, but I always thought he was like a grim individual

You are right.Joker in Batman 1 was a grim individual but he smiled when he felt that his plans managed to trick the police.The Goddamn Joker is too grim and a common phycho for my taste but somehow i manage to tolerate him(as long this version would never appear in mainstream series).

[Ramiel]

You are right.Joker in Batman 1 was a grim individual but he smiled when he felt that his plans managed to trick the police.The Goddamn Joker is too grim and a common phycho for my taste but somehow i manage to tolerate him(as long this version would never appear in mainstream series).

So, it could be said this adaption is actually closer to the original then just more to the extreme?

[PamGrierOverdrive]

I think this series is largely wasted potential. That's about it.


Ditto. I understand the idea that Miller may be playing this book as an irreverent deconstruction of Batman, but that doesn't appeal to me. I feel as though DC had initially sold the audience a false bill of goods with the idea of Miller taking seriously the character, when in fact he seems to be pissing on everything for kicks.

[the goddamn batman]

Ditto. I understand the idea that Miller may be playing this book as an irreverent deconstruction of Batman, but that doesn't appeal to me. I feel as though DC had initially sold the audience a false bill of goods with the idea of Miller taking seriously the character, when in fact he seems to be pissing on everything for kicks.

I think DC wanted on ething, but didn't force Miller to do that one thing. That's their fault. They should be able to look at Miller's more recent work and see that he's just no interested in doing the same kind of work he was 20 years ago.

But I don't think Miller is 'pissing' on anything. He's simply having fun playing with toys. And Batman is a toy to be played with. People have played with batman for damn near 70 years. How Miller doing it now is 'pissing' on anything, I don't know.

[Batman was taken]

How are people still talking about the premis and charactorizations after 8 issues? I thought that would be played out by now...

Sorry if I killed some spelling... I miss Firefoxes spell checker:)

[Choppa]

How are people still talking about the premis and charactorizations after 8 issues? I thought that would be played out by now...

Sorry if I killed some spelling... I miss Firefoxes spell checker:)

What else is there to talk abuot? The story has gone nowhere, there's nothin else particularly redeeming about the book except the art, and all of the other elements are the same things that are usually discussed.

[Nefarius]

So, it could be said this adaption is actually closer to the original then just more to the extreme?

Close only in the part that they are both grim persons,but killing a woman with his bare hands.Geez,there's no fun in this.Use joker venom or a deadly trap.That's the Joker(at least for me).

[ni8shadow]

Well it is a "young" Joker getting his start. Maybe Miller will have his style develop.

I haven't been a long time Batman reader (first issue I actually bought was the one with AzBat's new costume) and I actually enjoy this book and perhaps that is why I can enjoy it more than some. But I try to look at the characters as being somewhat "green" and Miller giving them some experiences that will change them, for better or worse. With Bruce, Robin could be the guy to straighten out his attitude and give him a new perspective on his role. With the the Joker, Batman will "help" him develop his criminal style to meet this new challenge.

I share kinda the same attitude on ASB as this guy

http://comics.ign.com/articles/685/685820p1.html

Made sense to me as a "newb" to comic Batman.

[Ramiel]

Close only in the part that they are both grim persons,but killing a woman with his bare hands.Geez,there's no fun in this.Use joker venom or a deadly trap.That's the Joker(at least for me).

That seems to be what All Star Batman is character-wise, a more extreme version of their original counterparts. Well, with some characters anyway.

[Captain Jim]

Sorry if I killed some spelling... I miss Firefoxes spell checker:)

If you install Google's toolbar on your browser, there's a simple and easy spellcheck on it. I use it all the time. :)