Official All-Star Batman & Robin #8 thread (spoilers)

[Captain Jim]

Since this issue premieres today in Canada and Thursday in the US, I thought I'd go ahead and start a thread for it. Please put all of your comments relative to this issue in this thread.

Also, a plea: Let's try to keep our comments focused to commentary on the story & art and not get off on one of these "This series is a rip-off" tangents. This is supposed to be the end of the first arc, so comments on how the whole arc fits together are certainly appropriate as well (as long as they're more substantial than the above mentioned tangents that we've all heard many times before).

[lukababic]

1st :)

Cant wait to read it! Since its the last one for this year, maybe it will even have Joker in it! Catch ya later, off to the store!

[The Batman]

Stuff is for sure coming out in Canada today?

I might make a special trip to the store then.

[Mia]

Well I guess Miller must have read comments from those of us who’ve decided to pack it in. Because this issue reads less like fan fic by a 15 year old boy on a sugar rush, and is a bit more interesting. Batman is less of a monkey than he is in past issues, and instead sounds more like a poor mock up of Clint Eastwood in Dirty Harry.

The scene with the Joker garroting that woman was sick. I’m pretty open minded and likely to scream ’SEXISM’ at the drop at a hat, but I found it pretty distasteful. But then again this is the Joker. I’ve never understood why so many authors write him as a mad dog. As opposed to the sadist he is supposed to be.

The best stuff in this issue was the artwork and the writing of young Dick. It’s very reminiscent of the interpretation in Robin Year One.

In that Dick is portrayed as a very smart boy yet still a teenager. Unlike Tim who is essentially an adult in a teenage boys body. And Jason was just a brat. Dick actually has more intelligence and wisdom than Batman.

This is supposed to be my last issue. But I may pick it up from issue to issue depending on the quality.

[Batman was taken]

I personally thought it was pretty good. Granted, I haven't hated the series to the extent that others have, I've enjoyed the whole thing...

Anyways, I really, really like the way the Joker was presented. He was sick and creepy, the way he should be. Not a whole lot happened, but it did introduce several big plot threads, which is good. I liked seeing Catwoman show up, nice little surprise there...

The rest of this series seems to be shaping up pretty nicely now. Shame we have to wait what, three months for the next one?

I'd give it a solid 7.5-8/10...

Oh, and the art was beautiful as always... And there was no goddamn Batman!

[Raker616]

Was the JLA in this issue, and if so did they do anything? thanks.

[Batman was taken]

GL (Hal) made a brief cameo. They (him and Batman) set up a meeting for the next issue.

[Infernorhythm]

Whats the Joker like in this issue? I saw a cover of him with a dragon tattoo, whats up with that? Spoilers please.

[Ramiel]

Oh, and the art was beautiful as always... And there was no goddamn Batman!

Seriously, not even one? Wow, never thought I'd see that day

[the goddamn batman]

Well I guess Miller must have read comments from those of us who’ve decided to pack it in.

Somehow I really doubt that. Miller is known for not giving a shit about peoples comments on the internet... well, aside from staying away from them.

The best stuff in this issue was the writing of young Dick.

It's always been. That's the point. This is Dick's story, and it's always seemed to me that it's all filtered through his eyes... even when he's not present, it's about how Dick sees Batman.

Regardless of satire or parody, that's how I've taken most of it. Dick is the straight-man.

[smoothjokes]

Seriously, not even one? Wow, never thought I'd see that day

I just picked up #7 and #8, read both of them. I don't know why people hate on this book so much, it's excellent. Dick Grayson is being handled so well, and Miller's Joker should be a definitive Joker! I've never been so disgusted by the character until now. I mean besides Killing Joke, the Joker is usually written so goofy. This was a great take on the character, he's a serial killing mob-boss, that's how he should be played. He's smart, he's a damn scientist for Christ sakes if you follow his first appearance.

Anyways excellent reads, back on my pull-list. Very excited for the next issue. Couldn't stop laughing at Hal Jordan eating a hot-dog, it's good characterization as Hal is a very free-spirited person. Love the line, "If I had that power, imagine what I could do..." But I hope that Bruce figures that one out, that he's exactly the person that doesn't need the ring, he'd almost act as a dictator with power like that.

Ever since All-Star Batman & Robin returned from there hiatus, it's been great issues ever since. I'm glad Frank or DC didn't buckle under fan-boy pressure. The book still sells over 100,000. I always compare comic fandom to radio talk shows, fan-boys are the "callers" (basically the crazies who take things too serious or are just plain weird in person) and the rest of comic fandom who are the "listeners" (intelligent people who don't go spewing there opinion as if it's coming from God's mouth himself). Anyways, I say buy the book, but I know I'm in the minority on this board.

[the goddamn batman]

I'm glad Frank or DC didn't buckle under fan-boy pressure. The book still sells over 100,000.

Frank would never buckle under pressure from fans.

DC will never change a book that sells as well as All Star. Now imagine the numbers it'd be doing if it didn't have so many delays.

[smoothjokes]

It'd probably still do about the same maybe 120,000. It's natural for a book to decline. I'm still a fan of the All-Star Joker, what an introduction. I'm hoping he puts a bullet through Selina's head. That'd be dope. Oh and Black Canary is sexy! :D

[the goddamn batman]

Decline, sure, but I believe ASB&R had a pretty substantial drop off after the year delay. I might be wrong, but that's what I remember.

[lonewolf23k]

Whats the Joker like in this issue? I saw a cover of him with a dragon tattoo, whats up with that? Spoilers please.

Basically, he's a gangster thug who has sex with women, then kills them for fun, then has his thug female bodyguard who's topless except for swastikas covering her breasts dispose of the body.

...I swear to God, I wish I was making that up.

I barely know where to begin to describe how horribly wrong this portrayal is... Simply put, Miller has reduced Joker to little more then a thug with a white face. Where's the style? The sick, twisted humor? The display of raw insanity?

FOR HEAVEN'S SAKES, HE WASN'T EVEN LAUGHING!! WHAT KIND OF SCREWED UP JOKER DOESN'T LAUGH WHEN HE KILLS?! :mad:

I'm sure as Hell glad I didn't buy that comic. That Frank Miller, who wrote one of the best Batman stories ever in "DKR" would later come out with this crap just sickens me.

[smoothjokes]

Basically, he's a gangster thug who has sex with women, then kills them for fun, then has his thug female bodyguard who's topless except for swastikas covering her breasts dispose of the body.

...I swear to God, I wish I was making that up.

I barely know where to begin to describe how horribly wrong this portrayal is... Simply put, Miller has reduced Joker to little more then a thug with a white face. Where's the style? The sick, twisted humor? The display of raw insanity?

FOR HEAVEN'S SAKES, HE WASN'T EVEN LAUGHING!! WHAT KIND OF SCREWED UP JOKER DOESN'T LAUGH WHEN HE KILLS?! :mad:

I'm sure as Hell glad I didn't buy that comic. That Frank Miller, who wrote one of the best Batman stories ever in "DKR" would later come out with this crap just sickens me.

The bitch with Nazi tits made me laugh out loud along with Hal Jordan eating a hot-dog. No one likes "Ultimate" Batman (which is what they told Frank the All-Star line was suppose to be) right now, and to say that isn't the Joker's character hasn't read many Joker stories, he's not always in a laughing mood and the Joker is still a serial killer, make no mistakes about it.

[Ramiel]

I just picked up #7 and #8, read both of them. I don't know why people hate on this book so much, it's excellent.

Well, just to clarify, I wasn't hating on the book so to speak, I have no real problem with it, but I'm shocked to hear that Goddamn Batman wasn't used once considering how excessively it's been used in the past

[the goddamn batman]

Basically, he's a gangster thug who has sex with women, then kills them for fun, then has his thug female bodyguard who's topless except for swastikas covering her breasts dispose of the body.

That Frank Miller, who wrote one of the best Batman stories ever in "DKR" would later come out with this crap just sickens me.

FOR HEAVEN'S SAKES, HE WASN'T EVEN LAUGHING!!


You've not actually read DKR then, have you?

[the goddamn batman]

No one likes "Ultimate" Batman (which is what they told Frank the All-Star line was suppose to be)

Where'd you get that info?

According to Miller, DC didn't tell him that it was anything like that, or that he had any rules to abide by, except that it must be Dick Grayson as Robin.

According to DC, like, several times, it's not supposed to be their answer to the Ultimate line. It's just stories told outside of current continuity with the original Dynamic Duo and big name creativ teams. That's it.

[lonewolf23k]

The bitch with Nazi tits made me laugh out loud along with Hal Jordan eating a hot-dog. No one likes "Ultimate" Batman (which is what they told Frank the All-Star line was suppose to be) right now, and to say that isn't the Joker's character hasn't read many Joker stories, he's not always in a laughing mood and the Joker is still a serial killer, make no mistakes about it.

Nazitits wasn't funny. And while the Joker may not always be in a funny laughing mood, there's still a rhythm to follow when telling a story. When you introduce a character, his First Impression will generally reflect how he's going to be throughout the entire story. Just look at the First Impressions of Darth Vader, the Dragonball Z androids, or Princess Azula.

A proper introduction for the Joker should... Well, I think the DCAU adaptation of The Laughing Fish (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxiY2x_Ljsg&feature=related) shows it best..

Step one, a showman's introduction.
Step two, a crazy scheme.
Step three, a display of brutal violence. Bonus points if it's actually darkly funny.

This introduction... Nothing, and I mean nothing about it screams "Joker" to me. All of it is crap any common thug could've done. If he'd, at least killed the girl with Joker Venom, or better yet some variant of it he'd put on his rubber, then it might've been Joker-esque, but strangling?!

Like the Joker would say: "Strictly Amateur Hour."

Look, you want to know how the Joker should be written? There's a whole thread on Scans_Daily called "Great Moments in Joker History" (http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/4157482.html#cutid1) that showcases some of the best Joker stories ever written.

In fact, fun quote from that post:
So, my checklist for a good Joker story:

1)Joker's actions should be determined by does whatever makes you chuckle hardest, the darker the humor the better.
2)He has no true origin.
3)There's a black, bitter evil inside the madness that hates everything and that peeks through when he is pushed too hard.
4)His smile is a contortion of his facial muscles, much like his toxin's effects. Maybe some back alley plastic surgery thrown in. It is NOT the result of a poorly thrown batarang or that god awful alteration that took place after Slayride and has been almost immediately discarded by sane writers.
5)Joker Venom is a bit cumbersome. Just call it Smilex; they came up with a good name for the first movie, stick with it.
6) A good Joker story should end with him dying (but with no body being found) much more often then it should end with Batman hauling him back to Arkham.
7)A good Joker story shouldn't have a purely evil and frightening Joker (gassing a daycare center or a stadium full of people, just to make it clear how horrible he is), nor should it have him as just a silly clown (Cesar Romero. 'nuff said). It should have him being both at once, in balance with each other.
8)Most importantly, a good Joker story should have a simple premise. No huge crossover, no giant plot that involves half the Batman rogues gallery, or affects a dozen other superheroes. It doesn't even need to be a plot that endangers all of Gotham. You just gotta stick to what works. The Joker wants to kill off five of his henchmen. The Joker wants to patent fish. The Joker wants to drive Jim Gordon crazy.
9)And if he ever dies, he last thought/words should be him realizing it's not all a joke after all.

Now, just with that first checklist item, we can tell one thing about Frank Miller: apparantly, he thinks dead whores are funny.

[lonewolf23k]

You've not actually read DKR then, have you?

It's been a while since I last read it, true. But for heavens' sakes, ASB&R makes DKR look almost as good as Watchmen...

[the goddamn batman]

Nazitits wasn't funny. And while the Joker may not always be in a funny laughing mood, there's still a rhythm to follow when telling a story. When you introduce a character, his First Impression will generally reflect how he's going to be throughout the entire story. Just look at the First Impressions of Darth Vader, the Dragonball Z androids, or Princess Azula.

A proper introduction for the Joker should... Well, I think the DCAU adaptation of The Laughing Fish (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxiY2x_Ljsg&feature=related) shows it best..

First, nobody is introducing Joker. You're talking about one of the most well known fictional characters in the world.

I mean, the fact that you've noticed that he's not as he "should" be means two things; one: you're well aware of the character, and thus he needs no introduction. two: Frank has sucesfully introduced his version, because you've noticed the difference.

And Whiskey. Tango. Foxtrot. Frank said in an interview before the book even cae out that Joker wouldn't be laughing or funny. he;d be pure evil. The name Joker would be ironic.

I dunno...

[the goddamn batman]

It's been a while since I last read it, true.

Clearly. "Nazitits" (as people are refering to her, and yeah, if you've called her that, you've put a giant VOID stamp on your right to comment on Miller's portrayal/opinion/respect for/or lack of women. ;) ) was in DKR. As was the Joker you're reading in this comic.

So, you might want to brush up on books before you comment on them.

[lonewolf23k]

Okay, fine... It's Miller-Joker. It's just not the real Joker, or even a reasonable adaptation thereof.

As far as I'm concerned, he's just a thug with a white face. Just a cheap knock-off.

[Infernorhythm]

Basically, he's a gangster thug who has sex with women, then kills them for fun, then has his thug female bodyguard who's topless except for swastikas covering her breasts dispose of the body.

...I swear to God, I wish I was making that up.

I barely know where to begin to describe how horribly wrong this portrayal is... Simply put, Miller has reduced Joker to little more then a thug with a white face. Where's the style? The sick, twisted humor? The display of raw insanity?

FOR HEAVEN'S SAKES, HE WASN'T EVEN LAUGHING!! WHAT KIND OF SCREWED UP JOKER DOESN'T LAUGH WHEN HE KILLS?! :mad:

I'm sure as Hell glad I didn't buy that comic. That Frank Miller, who wrote one of the best Batman stories ever in "DKR" would later come out with this crap just sickens me.

To be fair, DKR sucked.

Wow, that Joker sounds bad. And what is with Miller and women with swastikas? I remember seeing them in Sin City, DKR, and now this.

[Ramiel]

As was the Joker you're reading in this comic.

True, I don't even think he smiles till he offs himself

[the goddamn batman]

Okay, fine... It's Miller-Joker. It's just not the real Joker, or even a reasonable adaptation thereof.

As far as I'm concerned, he's just a thug with a white face. Just a cheap knock-off.

Yeah, it's Miller's Joker. Like it's always been. Like he said it would be. Like it always is with every character... in a book staring Miller's Batman.

Miller does his versions of every character he touches. Why you'd be shocked to discover this some 30 years into the man's career, I don't know, but there it is.

[the goddamn batman]

True, I don't even think he smiles till he offs himself

Not that I recall, but my copy is on loan.

[lonewolf23k]

Yeah, it's Miller's Joker. Like it's always been. Like he said it would be. Like it always is with every character... in a book staring Miller's Batman.

Miller does his versions of every character he touches. Why you'd be shocked to discover this some 30 years into the man's career, I don't know, but there it is.

I expected something horribly dark, twisted and lacking in moral values, and rather unlike the real versions of the characters, I'll admit...

...But this version of the Joker is just beyond the pale. You can not have a Joker who's not darkly funny, even if the joke is only funny to him! For heavens' sakes, this guy makes The Batman's Joker look magnificent in comparison!

Look, I can accept that Miller-Batman is a sociopath, that Miller-Black Canary is a skank, that Miller-Diana is a man-hater, that Miller-Superman is some dumb super-powered tool of the Powers that Be...

...But a Joker who doesn't laugh is no Joker at all, no matter who's writing.

[the goddamn batman]

I expected something horribly dark, twisted and lacking in moral values, and rather unlike the real versions of the characters, I'll admit...

...But this version of the Joker is just beyond the pale. You can not have a Joker who's not darkly funny, even if the joke is only funny to him! For heavens' sakes, this guy makes The Batman's Joker look magnificent in comparison!

Look, I can accept that Miller-Batman is a sociopath, that Miller-Black Canary is a skank, that Miller-Diana is a man-hater, that Miller-Superman is some dumb super-powered tool of the Powers that Be...

...But a Joker who doesn't laugh is no Joker at all, no matter who's writing.

Dude, you're not the authority on... well, anything. You do understand the concpet of irony, right? So, a character named JOKER, who's an evil homicidal maniac with an ironic name would be just what you've seen in this issue. That's what Miller wants Joker to be in his Milelr-verse. Get over it.

[ultramandingo]

........ im nota jim lee fan . and the last millerthing i like'd was daredevil , but i kinda liked this one for some reason . " damn , the brats starting to GET to me " - or its all the vodka tonics ive been drinkin and GRINDERMAN in listing to

[Choppa]

I thought this was crap. Joker's a pimp now? Hal is eating a hot dog and drinking soda? Batman sounds like a retard himself with all the stupid comments he's making. What's with the girl with the swastikas on her breasts? This was another issue where nothing happend. So far the first 8 issues have all been setup. That's ridiculous.

[GRANT!]

What was up with Joker's body builder physique and Asian Dragon tat?

[lonewolf23k]

Dude, you're not the authority on... well, anything. You do understand the concpet of irony, right?

I get Irony. It just doesn't work in this case.

[lonewolf23k]

What was up with Joker's body builder physique and Asian Dragon tat?

Miller's writing. That's what's up.

[TROUBLEZ]

Lonewolf, in that checklist you linked, what comic is that animated style Joker story from? The one where he's telling Harley about his dad?

[lonewolf23k]

Lonewolf, in that checklist you linked, what comic is that animated style Joker story from? The one where he's telling Harley about his dad?

That's from "Mad Love", a one-shot DCAUverse comic that was later on adapted to an episode of the series.

[the goddamn batman]

What was up with Joker's body builder physique and Asian Dragon tat?

Miller's writing. That's what's up.

Actually? The Dragon tat was Lee's idea... I'll assume that the physique is Lee as well. Considering Alfred was built like Batman and Jim Lee can really only draw one or two body types.

How you equate things on the artists end of things to the responsibility of the writer, I'll never know.

[TROUBLEZ]

That's from "Mad Love", a one-shot DCAUverse comic that was later on adapted to an episode of the series.

Thanks. That's a good list of Joker moments.

Just checked Mile High, it's 28 dollars. Damn.

Maybe Dini should have been paired up with Jim Lee.

[Dr. Chaos]

Green Lantern chilling on a Gotham rooftop eating a hotdog? The Emerald Imbecile?

Yes! Sock it to me, Miller!

*marks*

[lonewolf23k]

Actually? The Dragon tat was Lee's idea... I'll assume that the physique is Lee as well. Considering Alfred was built like Batman and Jim Lee can really only draw one or two body types.

How you equate things on the artists end of things to the responsibility of the writer, I'll never know.

Okay, fine... Miller and Lee ****** up the Joker, then.

[Dr. Chaos]

And now, for your enjoyment, stolen directly from Frank's laptop, a brief preview of Issue #9:

Joker: Well, you're pretty damn crazy, aren't you, Batman? Care for some calm Non-joking dialogue? Cause I don't do that.

Batman: HAHAHAHAHA!!

*bites off Joker's ear and howls at the moon*

[Captain Jim]

Dude, you're not the authority on... well, anything. You do understand the concpet of irony, right? So, a character named JOKER, who's an evil homicidal maniac with an ironic name would be just what you've seen in this issue. That's what Miller wants Joker to be in his Milelr-verse. Get over it.

Simmer down, GD.

[Violently Apathetic]

And now, for your enjoyment, stolen directly from Frank's laptop, a brief preview of Issue #9:

Joker: Well, you're pretty damn crazy, aren't you, Batman? Care for some calm Non-joking dialogue? Cause I don't do that.

Batman: HAHAHAHAHA!!

*bites off Joker's ear and howls at the moon*

Great, now I have Pepsi all over my computer screen. Thanks a lot. I was doing okay until that last line...

[beetheb]

I'll sum up.

Writing = Bad.

Art = Awesome, as always.

Topless swastika-pastied henchwoman = Unintentionally laugh inducing.

The Joker = Miller and Lee trying too hard to be edgy.

Dialogue = Way too repetitive.

The Series = Wishes it could be a quarter as good as All-Star Superman, but isn't.

WIll I buy it again next month (year)? = Probably. Lee's art is too good to miss.

Topless swastika-pastied henchwoman = Still unintentionally laugh inducing.

[GRANT!]

I'm also kind wondering why a pretty young prosecuter decided to have a one night stand with some creepy dude in clown makeup. I know girls make some mistakes but c'mon you don't have one night stands with the Joker.

[Dr. Chaos]

You do in Gotham city, baby.

(it's something in the water, I think)

[beetheb]

I'm also kind wondering why a pretty young prosecuter decided to have a one night stand with some creepy dude in clown makeup. I know girls make some mistakes but c'mon you don't have one night stands with the Joker.Well, when she says "If I didn't know better I'd think you slipped something into my drink", I think it's alluded to that the Joker probably slipped something into her drink.

[GRANT!]

Well, when she says "If I didn't know better I'd think you slipped something into my drink", I think it's alluded to that the Joker probably slipped something into her drink.

Missed that bit.

[GRANT!]

You do in Gotham city, baby.

(it's something in the water, I think)

Maybe I'm just depressed that the Joker gets more action then I do. And I don't strangle women to death.

[Batman was taken]

I have a question. All the people hating on this. WHY are you still reading it? We're 8 issues in, you know damn well what you're getting. If you haven't liked the first 7 issues, you're not gonna like the rest.

[pariah-1972]

God this was so funny i think almost died or somethin.:D
i don't think this book should be taken seriously at all now i had my doubts before but this is Frank doing black comedy which is not something hes known for .
i did think the nazitits thing was so over the top stupid,
but unfortunately from what i have seen and read about Frank Millers writing he has a lot of issues with females unfortunately.
i would suggest therapy but then it would just be Frank Miller lite and probably not very entertaining.
The Joker was completely different and out of character but then nobody in this comic is like they were they are usually written so it's kind of weird to complain about it now.

[DoctorNemesis]

I have a question. All the people hating on this. WHY are you still reading it? We're 8 issues in, you know damn well what you're getting. If you haven't liked the first 7 issues, you're not gonna like the rest.

It's the comedy value, speaking personally. I pick it up in the shop, have a good little chuckle, and then put it back again. Sets me up for the rest of the day. :)

Although maybe I'm missing something and I may be misremembering, but I'm a bit surprised that the Joker didn't even crack a smile when he was throttling that woman; say what you will about Miller's interpretation and what have you, but isn't the whole point of the Joker that he's a sick little psycho who gets off on this kind of thing - that he finds this sort of thing utterly hilarious? Isn't that part of what's so disturbing about the character? I mean, I can understand Batman but making the Joker dour and grim kind of suggests that the writer's missed the whole point of the character. But then, as Pariah says above, that's not exactly out of the ordinary for this book.

I did like Batman's little burst of petulance when he was thinking of the 'Green Retard' (or whatever he calls Hal Jordan) and what he'd do with the Green Lantern ring if it'd been given to him, though.

[Smokeyjay]

Anyone else find the dragon tattoo of Joke pretty cool? It doesn't really fit the Joker though.

But I like the character design behind this Joker.

Well I'm reading it because I enjoy it. I think there's a lot of things that are cheezy about it, but its still a fun read. Your not bogged down in continuity like in other comics.

[Jon Vinson]

This is the strangest, most f'd-up Batman I've ever read. And Godamit I've read alot of Batman stories. I can appreciate the utter audacity of it. Even the groan-inducing moments, and there've been a few.
This isn't Miller's best work, but it's been alot of fun so far. Just as long as you don't take it too seriously.
And Jim Lee's artwork is always a joy to behold.
www.theapplicants.com

[pariah-1972]

It's really ironic that Robin is the only real sympathetic person in this comic right now.
to be honest i never really liked him until he grew up right before he became Nightwing.

question: could this dragon tattoo be related to yakuza? somehow? don't they wear similar things like that?

[Dr. Chaos]

Isn't that part of what's so disturbing about the character?
Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure this guy isn't the same character as the main universe Joker.

It's fine I think if people don't like the characters, think its crappy writing or whatever, thats completely understandable but I always find it weird when characters in the All Star title are referred to as being out of character or something along those lines considering this is hardly the same world.

I have no problem with Frank's Joker, if he wants to play him for sadism and artistic irony, thats fine with me.

That doesn't mean I have to like him but he's certainly not breaking any rules, this isn't exactly Batman or Detective Comics.

Not crazy about the tat though, every psycho and their mom seems to have one that looks like that these days.

[filthysize]

Man, Captain Jim is right. All the "this book is supposed to be different/no, this is a parody/it's supposed to be silly" discussions are so bo-ring. Come on, we're 8 issues in. Shouldn't we all know the book enough by now to move on? Why are we still talking about it like it's issue 1 or 2?

For the record, this issue isn't the funniest, but it has the best writing yet. Joker's Crying Freeman characterization and opening narration are fabulous, and Batman's captions are getting more deliberately entertaining. "Whoa. Here comes a big flashlight. Very inventive." made me laugh. I never really wished for anyone to make Hal Jordan an intergalactic idiot before, but I'm liking it. His hot dog face was priceless.

Love the stuff with Robin choosing his costume, too.

[the goddamn batman]

It's really ironic that Robin is the only real sympathetic person in this comic right now.
to be honest i never really liked him until he grew up right before he became Nightwing.


I don't think it's at all ironic. It's deliberate.

[DoctorNemesis]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure this guy isn't the same character as the main universe Joker.

It's fine I think if people don't like the characters, think its crappy writing or whatever, thats completely understandable but I always find it weird when characters in the All Star title are referred to as being out of character or something along those lines considering this is hardly the same world.

I have no problem with Frank's Joker, if he wants to play him for sadism and artistic irony, thats fine with me.

That doesn't mean I have to like him but he's certainly not breaking any rules, this isn't exactly Batman or Detective Comics.

Not crazy about the tat though, every psycho and their mom seems to have one that looks like that these days.

True enough, this isn't the mainstream Bat-verse - but then again, with these characters even in different universes and Elseworlds and what have you, there's certain core fundamentals you'd expect to show up in some form or another, certain key elements about the Joker that uniquely identify him as 'The Joker'. Otherwise, what's the point of doing him at all - why not just create a new character?

To take one example, ASB&R Batman isn't like the mainstream Batman at all, but there's certain characteristics that appear which nevertheless say (to me, anyway) that this is still a Batman we're talking about. Granted, they might not be characteristics I necessarily enjoy or think are interesting (but that's another discussion), but they're at least recogniseable as being part of Batman. That just didn't happen with his Joker - his actions in the comic were certainly sadistic and evil, but they could have been performed by just any random psycho. Even granting that this is an alternate continuity there was still nothing particularly 'Jokerish' about this Joker other than the fact that he was made-up like a clown. For me, anyway.

I mean, to be honest I don't particularly give a toss about ASB&R one way or the other - it's the kind of book I just pick up in the store and flip through to see what's happened and then put it back down again - so if this Joker floats your boat then that's fine with me. The character who appeared just didn't particularly strike me as being the Joker, that's all.

[Mia]

I have a question. All the people hating on this. WHY are you still reading it? We're 8 issues in, you know damn well what you're getting. If you haven't liked the first 7 issues, you're not gonna like the rest.


Jim Lee's artwork and a love of Batman that's why. If it had been a less talented artist (ie. Javier Pullido) or the story had featured another superhero I wouldn't have bothered with the book.

[pariah-1972]

I don't think it's at all ironic. It's deliberate.Its ironic to me that this kid is more of a grown up than all the Justice League put together.
it's also ironic that i never liked him as a kid before and i would have thought that Frank Miller would hate Robin since he seems to dislike anything Silver Age related and Robin is probably the biggest.

[Schmakt]

This was the best issue yet. Easily.
So glad that he avoided the "goddamn Batman" joke as that got REALLY irritating last time. The Joker is a BADASS. And Batman's insane, and Hal is an idiot. Fantastic fun. This issue saved the series for me. I was kind of on the fence about sticking through 'til the end, but now I'm definitely staying around. Good times. :)

(Although that little editor's note about anatomical impossibilities or whatever was stupid... I can forgive that tho)

[ZombieHavoc]

I thought this was supposed to be the final issue of the first story arc, but I wouldn't really say that any sort of arc has been finished here.

That being said, I did enjoy the issue. I love this book.

[Ramiel]

Jim Lee's artwork and a love of Batman that's why. If it had been a less talented artist (ie. Javier Pullido) or the story had featured another superhero I wouldn't have bothered with the book.

There are like 4 other ongoing Batman titles out there, surely if you truly are disgusted with this title or hate the portrayal of the characters it'd be ok to drop and get your fix elsewhere.

[lukababic]

The best issue ever, or at least so far. I laughed my ass off! Things like: editorial's note, how do you know my name, mouse trap/flash light moron, pulling the hood down... and none of the "goddamness"! Although, I think Jim Lee's shorthand and perspective weren't as good as they are usually, some of those bird-eye views distorted the body proportions and some limbs positions.

But, one thing i didn't get: Since when does Joker has tattoos and Nazi girl sidekick with swastika-nipples? And for what purpose? Also, this may be the first proof ever that Joker isn't gay... just maybe a necrophile :) And whats the deal with Selina, shes a Joker's biatch now?

I can't wait to see the next issue and how will Miller explain why does Joker needs two circus trapeze artists dead. No wait, even more than that I can't wait to see what will happen when the Bats and GL meet! Jim already showed some of the pages on gametap videos section, also available on his gelatometi blog. Maybe WW will show up and cheat Supes with the Bat in front of everybody in Black Canary style!

I don't know about you, but these 20 or so pages read awfully fast!

[pariah-1972]

The best issue ever, or at least so far. I laughed my ass off! Things like: editorial's note, how do you know my name, mouse trap/flash light moron, pulling the hood down... and none of the "goddamness"! Although, I think Jim Lee's shorthand and perspective weren't as good as they are usually, some of those bird-eye views distorted the body proportions and some limbs positions.

But, one thing i didn't get: Since when does Joker has tattoos and Nazi girl sidekick with swastika-nipples? And for what purpose? Also, this may be the first proof ever that Joker isn't gay... just maybe a necrophile :) And whats the deal with Selina, shes a Joker's biatch now?

I can't wait to see the next issue and how will Miller explain why does Joker needs two circus trapeze artists dead. No wait, even more than that I can't wait to see what will happen when the Bats and GL meet! Jim already showed some of the pages on gametap videos section, also available on his gelatometi blog. Maybe WW will show up and cheat Supes with the Bat in front of everybody in Black Canary style!

I don't know about you, but these 20 or so pages read awfully fast!

I think the Nazi girl is supposed to be his version of Captain Nazi since they both have blonde crewcuts, for what purpose?
obviously eye candy since so far so shows no real purpose so far,
i wouldn't call Selina Jokers "biatch" especially to her face , unless you like being whipped?
the reason it reads so fast is because of all the splash pages.

[swedishmeatballs]

The best issue ever, or at least so far. I laughed my ass off! Things like: editorial's note, how do you know my name, mouse trap/flash light moron, pulling the hood down... and none of the "goddamness"! Although, I think Jim Lee's shorthand and perspective weren't as good as they are usually, some of those bird-eye views distorted the body proportions and some limbs positions.

But, one thing i didn't get: Since when does Joker has tattoos and Nazi girl sidekick with swastika-nipples? And for what purpose? Also, this may be the first proof ever that Joker isn't gay... just maybe a necrophile :) And whats the deal with Selina, shes a Joker's biatch now?

I can't wait to see the next issue and how will Miller explain why does Joker needs two circus trapeze artists dead. No wait, even more than that I can't wait to see what will happen when the Bats and GL meet! Jim already showed some of the pages on gametap videos section, also available on his gelatometi blog. Maybe WW will show up and cheat Supes with the Bat in front of everybody in Black Canary style!

I don't know about you, but these 20 or so pages read awfully fast!

Geez, did people already forget about Bruno?

[the goddamn batman]

Its ironic to me that this kid is more of a grown up than all the Justice League put together.
it's also ironic that i never liked him as a kid before and i would have thought that Frank Miller would hate Robin since he seems to dislike anything Silver Age related and Robin is probably the biggest.

Again, it's not ironic. Frank is doing that on purpose. He's writing Robin as straight as possible. it's Robin's origin, it's his story, it's his book, he's the one that's going to shine.

Didn't Frank say that he'd been pretty shitty to Robin in the past and it was time to show him some love?

Then agin, Frank said that Dick comes up with the name 'Robin'... yet, clearly Batman did at the end there.

And, The girl with the Swastika's on her breasts is Bruno from DKR. And Joker mentions poisioning the water, like at the end of Year One. Frank's nodding to his other work.

[pariah-1972]

A girl named Bruno?

[Violently Apathetic]

A transvestite named Bruno.

[Deadpooligan]

The straight faced Joker is obviously a lead-in to later development of the character. He's going to snap, and be really really crazy. We're talking about the same writer who had him laugh as his neck got spun around.

He'll come around. I have faith in Miller to keep me entertained.

And Jim Lee to be continuously awesome, now that they've put him on a schedule.

[pariah-1972]

A transvestite named Bruno.

This may be the scariest strangest thing i have ever seen in a comic.

[spidervenom]

Isnt the swastika women from dkr?

[the goddamn batman]

Isnt the swastika women from dkr?

And, The girl with the Swastika's on her breasts is Bruno from DKR.

;)

This may be the scariest strangest thing i have ever seen in a comic.

Yeah, it happened over 20 years ago. And it's far from the scariest or strangest thing I've seen in a comic, but maybe after 20 years the shock of Bruno has worn off.

[OverMaster]

Isnt the swastika women from dkr?

Well, she is called Bruno, but we don't know if that's her real name (as a born-man) or just a nickname (because she's a butch, maybe?). So we don't know for sure if she's a transvestite. After all, in Frank Miller's world, where tough-guy bikers can be named 'Dorothy', why not a girl named 'Bruno'?

I wonder if we will see the huge and dumb toymaker from DKR, too. I liked that guy, even though his freaky flying robot kids were way too creepy.

[filthysize]

The straight faced Joker is obviously a lead-in to later development of the character. He's going to snap, and be really really crazy. We're talking about the same writer who had him laugh as his neck got spun around.

I don't know. That's kind of redundant of DKR if he's just going to start laughing again because of Bats. I like the whole "the name Joker is ironic" angle (which I had a hunch would be like this, given that splash page hint at the end of #7).

The reason this works is because he's not just another mob boss/serial killer with a clown face, but he's a clown who seems to actually be sad and gloomy all the time, calling himself Joker. It's the sad clown cliche, but there's something romantic about it... Has anyone read Crying Freeman? Joker's really giving me a very similar vibe. That's probably why Miller had him bedding a woman in his first scene. I want to see Miller milk this character dry.

[Deadpooligan]

After rereading DKR, it's pretty obvious that Miller's leading us right into it.

We get Bruno the neo-nazi tranny as a nod right? Would any of you have guessed that Jocko Boy is a nod?

http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/6973/jockodkren8.jpg

In DKR Book 3, it became clear, because the plot of the ish follows the Joker. The Joker / Catwoman scene is there. Joker is pretty stern and stoic through the whole thing. In fact, the only time he laughs manically is when Batman breaks his neck.

I'm waiting for Rob and Don as the next nod, personally.

[the goddamn batman]

But in #8 Batman tells Jocko Boy he'll never stop seeing the bugs... but internally says it's a lie.

But he's contradicted DKR several times already. And Selina isn't black like in Year One, but he's nodded to the end of Year One.

But Miller contradicted DKR in DKSA so... you know. Take it for what it is.

And Joker snapped his own neck in DKR.

[Deadpooligan]

But in #8 Batman tells Jocko Boy he'll never stop seeing the bugs... but internally says it's a lie.

And Joker snapped his own neck.

1) Irony! He's wrong! And it's not like Bats hasn't been wrong before, ever.

2) Fine. But! Batman paralyzed him first, so there's that. And the Joker was still stoic as in ASBAR #8 until his very last moment, where he just kinda cracked.

[the goddamn batman]

1) Irony! He's wrong! And it's not like Bats hasn't been wrong before, ever.

Ok... I'll go along with that.

2) Fine. But! Batman paralyzed him first, so there's that. And the Joker was still stoic as in ASBAR #8 until his very last moment, where he just kinda cracked.

Sure, and he wanted to kill him, he sat there debating it, but in the end, Joker snapped his own neck to frame Batman.

And yeah, it's the same Joker as in DKR, no argument here on that one.

[Mia]

There are like 4 other ongoing Batman titles out there, surely if you truly are disgusted with this title or hate the portrayal of the characters it'd be ok to drop and get your fix elsewhere.

Thank you I am well aware of what I can and can not do.

But really this has nothing to do with the question at hand.


I have a question. All the people hating on this. WHY are you still reading it? We're 8 issues in, you know damn well what you're getting. If you haven't liked the first 7 issues, you're not gonna like the rest.

And I responded by saying:

Jim Lee's artwork and a love of Batman that's why. If it had been a less talented artist (ie. Javier Pullido) or the story had featured another superhero I wouldn't have bothered with the book.

[matt_hatyber]

man that girl is stupid. you know the girl who had sex with the joker. Yea.

ok i think robin would be better of as the hood. with the hood reminded me of damian. and i love damians costume.

[Ramiel]

Thank you I am well aware of what I can and can not do.

But really this has nothing to do with the question at hand.


Yeah, I know exactly what you said, you don't have to do quotes and re-quotes :rolleyes: All I ever see from you is complaining about this book pretty much from the beginning and you answer by saying Well, it's Batman, as if there's some shortage of him in comics

I'm sorry, but it makes no sense to me to continuously shell out 3 dollars for a comic from the start when you hate it just because you know, it's Batman. Just drop it. I'd understand if this series was just starting, but this has been around for over a year.

And yes, it did have to do with the question at hand, if you hate it so much why keep going, I'd understand if Batman was at a shortage, but he's not, 4 other ongoings (which probably going to suit your tastes of the character).

[IamtheRock3]

Somehow I really doubt that. Miller is known for not giving a shit about peoples comments on the internet... well, aside from staying away from them.



It's always been. That's the point. This is Dick's story, and it's always seemed to me that it's all filtered through his eyes... even when he's not present, it's about how Dick sees Batman.

Regardless of satire or parody, that's how I've taken most of it. Dick is the straight-man.


he may not care, but he deffintly been playing it up and having fun with people comments

by adding Jokes, and say god damm more then ever last issue

And the EDITOR note he put in there

[Deadpooligan]

Sure, and he wanted to kill him, he sat there debating it, but in the end, Joker snapped his own neck to frame Batman.

And yeah, it's the same Joker as in DKR, no argument here on that one.

It's times like this that I really really enjoy rereading it.

Hey! You guys! Eyes open for any more nods! I'm counting on you to find Rob and Don for me! And the first sign of mutants, for that matter!

For all the gripes people are giving about this book, I put all the nonsense behind me to just enjoy it. The art's fantastic, it's a prelude to DKR, and it's just pure comic book. Like, Nextwave, but with A-List Bat-family characters.

It's just so lovable. I mean, come on, Hal Jordan eating a hot dog? Unnecessarily using his ring for gesticulation? Brilliant.

[pariah-1972]

Does anyone think Bats might be jealous of Hal in some ways?
i mean Bats has worked most of his life to be the best he can be and then some freaking alien comes down and gives him the most powerful weapon in the universe?
and Hal didn't have to work for it or earn it it was just handed to him !
i could see where Bats might be a little resentful of that.

[lukababic]

Oh Mia, you truelly are Pretty and Pernicious :)

[RowdyRodimus]

This was my first issue of this series and it has quickly become one of my favorites. Not hard to do with the Ra's, OMD and Mesiah Complex crap going on.

[GRANT!]

This was my first issue of this series and it has quickly become one of my favorites. Not hard to do with the Ra's, OMD and Mesiah Complex crap going on.

Got the wrong book. This one had a serious Joker stangle a women to death after a one night stand. And the Green Lantern eating a hot dog.

[Dr. Chaos]

I really hope Frank has more plans for The Justice League.

I really do, his Wonder Woman & stooge Green Lantern are pure greatness.

[the goddamn batman]

All I ever see from you is complaining about this book pretty much from the beginning

I'm sorry, but it makes no sense to me to continuously shell out 3 dollars for a comic from the start when you hate it


The first part is the answer to the second part.;) :D

[the goddamn batman]

CBR's very own Rich Johnston on All Star:

The series is possibly the most successful superhero satire of the moment. It targets a fanboy's inner self-hate and rips it screaming onto the page. They hate it. And then buy two copies. A quite wonderful, deliberate, achievement.

[mattx110]

I can't believe a book notorious for being late, and I'm still behind 3 issues... I feel so dim.

[RowdyRodimus]

Got the wrong book. This one had a serious Joker stangle a women to death after a one night stand. And the Green Lantern eating a hot dog.

The Serious Joker works...Let's say that's how he is in Dark Knght, all the fanboys will be drooling over Ledgers perfomance. The thing is, it doesn't work for you in the comics, but have you read the first appearance of the Joker? He wasn't using guns that said "bang" or electrical joy buzzers. His entire thing was to KILL people. Not tell jokes.

And what if Hal just happens to eat hot dogs? I've seen Superman eat rocks before.

[TROUBLEZ]

catwoman was black in year one?

[GRANT!]

The Serious Joker works...Let's say that's how he is in Dark Knght, all the fanboys will be drooling over Ledgers perfomance. The thing is, it doesn't work for you in the comics, but have you read the first appearance of the Joker? He wasn't using guns that said "bang" or electrical joy buzzers. His entire thing was to KILL people. Not tell jokes.

And what if Hal just happens to eat hot dogs? I've seen Superman eat rocks before.

I wasn't making a critique. I was just stating what happened in the book because somebody was talking about another Batman comic that came out this week.

[filthysize]

I wasn't making a critique. I was just stating what happened in the book because somebody was talking about another Batman comic that came out this week.

Confusion! He was saying that it's easy to love this book because the stuff in other books suck. You misinterpreted it the first time around.

[filthysize]

CBR's very own Rich Johnston on All Star:

:D

Now we know why he was paired with Jim Lee.

[TROUBLEZ]

The first part is the answer to the second part.;) :D

Maybe they are buying it for the good art. Besides atleast they bought it and earned the right to criticize it. I stopped buying at issue #2 and I still bitch about it.

[pariah-1972]

I sympathize with Mia, theres as much bad as there is good with this book and its somewhat addictive especially when we are not getting much of a story developing.

i guess noone has any comments about my idea that Bats is jealous of Hal?

[RowdyRodimus]

I wasn't making a critique. I was just stating what happened in the book because somebody was talking about another Batman comic that came out this week.

No problem. Sorry if I came off rude.

[GRANT!]

Confusion! He was saying that it's easy to love this book because the stuff in other books suck. You misinterpreted it the first time around.

Ah... I got it. Sorry bout that.

[GRANT!]

Its ironic to me that this kid is more of a grown up than all the Justice League put together.
it's also ironic that i never liked him as a kid before and i would have thought that Frank Miller would hate Robin since he seems to dislike anything Silver Age related and Robin is probably the biggest.

I don't think that's true. DK2 treats Silver Age characters like Ray Palmer, Barry Allen and Hal Jordan pretty lovingly. Even Captain Marvel is treated with a fair amount of respect. I think Miller loves this stuff but he still likes acknowledge the absurdity of it all.


i don't think this book should be taken seriously at all now i had my doubts before but this is Frank doing black comedy which is not something hes known for .

People seem to forget that a lot of this stuff was suppose to be funny and he's been doing this for years. Sin City has a a lot of black comedy. Especially the first story with Marv. Ditto Martha Washington and the first Dark Knight as well. There's usually been an element of farce in his work. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

Does anyone think Bats might be jealous of Hal in some ways?
i mean Bats has worked most of his life to be the best he can be and then some freaking alien comes down and gives him the most powerful weapon in the universe?
and Hal didn't have to work for it or earn it it was just handed to him !
i could see where Bats might be a little resentful of that.

It's pretty obvious in the narration. The Goddamned Batman is kind of petty. Which I kind of find endearing.

[pariah-1972]

I don't know if i would call it endearing but it is pretty interesting.

[OverMaster]

2) Fine. But! Batman paralyzed him first, so there's that. And the Joker was still stoic as in ASBAR #8 until his very last moment, where he just kinda cracked.

Tiny nitpicking; actually, DKR's Joker was stoic not until his death, but until he killed the couple at the boat and then escaped into the Love Tunnel. Then he did the classic Joker Mad Laughter for the first time in DKR.

[Kid Kyoto]

Could someone post the famous Hal Jordan eating a hot dog scene?

Here in Red China I can't even look at the comic in a store and I just can't grasp what would be so funny.

[OverMaster]

Could someone post the famous Hal Jordan eating a hot dog scene?

Here in Red China I can't even look at the comic in a store and I just can't grasp what would be so funny.

In Communist China, comics look at YOU in stores!

OK, bad jokes aside, here it is...

http://pics.livejournal.com/espanolbot/pic/000ppb87

[Kid Kyoto]

Thanks man! This is kind of cool, I mean the dog's just there. It's nice to see a hero on a stakeout acting like a human being.

[Alex Dragon]

As more issues come out and I understand what Miller is doing I'm becoming a bigger fan of his writing on the book. At first it was only for Jim Lee's art but Miller is winning me over more and more with every issue. I'm really digging this version of Dick Grasyson and think this version makes more sense than the original. I like that this version seems to both respect Batman and not be afraid to call him on his BS.

I wish this book could go on for a few years because I'd love to see more of Miller's take on more of DC's characters and I'd love to see more Wonder Woman and JLA from Miller and Lee especially.

Right now the thing I'm most curious about is how Miller is going to justify Dick ending up in the ridiculous Robin costume he's destined to end up with. If Batman is pointing out how impractical Dick's first attempt is I don't see how he can give the thumbs up to the costume Dick will eventually end up wearing.

[filthysize]

Re: the whole Batman jealous of Hal thing... I remember Kessel's World's Finest mini where Batman meets Superman for the first time, and he thought almost verbatim what Miller wrote in that Hal scene, about how he could clean up Gotham quick if he was the one with superpowers because he would actually use it right.

[Punch]

I wouldn't say it's jealousy, Batman just thinks that Hal is not smart enough to use all the power he's given to it's full effect.
And whoever said that Miller isn't known for dark humor hasn't read a lot of his work or didn't understand it.

[pariah-1972]

I wouldn't say it's jealousy, Batman just thinks that Hal is not smart enough to use all the power he's given to it's full effect.
And whoever said that Miller isn't known for dark humor hasn't read a lot of his work or didn't understand it.But why would he think that? how much does he know about Hal anyways?
Maybe there is a reason he doesn't use it to it's "full effect" for all he knows.


and i'm pretty im the one who said that about Frank Miller and i readily admit i haven't read a lot of his work.:p
it was just my impression.

Hal may not be as smart as Batman but then again Bats is bending over backwards trying to intimidate some kid and the kid isn't even buying it,
so i wouldn't exactly call this version all that bright either.
:p

[Punch]

But why would he think that? how much does he know about Hal anyways?
Maybe there is a reason he doesn't use it to it's "full effect" for all he knows.Hal may not be as smart as Batman but then again Bats is bending over backwards trying to intimidate some kid and the kid isn't even buying it,
so i wouldn't exactly call this version all that bright either.
:p

I think the idea is that Batman has already started to keep tabs on the other heroes and done his homework in regards to their abilities. In regards to Robin, Batman is already starting to realize that Dick is smarter than he thought and

and i'm pretty im the one who said that about Frank Miller and i readily admit i haven't read a lot of his work.:p
it was just my impression.

Fair enough, but I'm wondering what you have read because, off the top of my head, his Daredevil runs are the only things I can think of that don't have that absurdist undertone. Even something as dark as Elektra Lives Again (an overlooked gem) has a lot of playfulness going on.

[pariah-1972]

I think the idea is that Batman has already started to keep tabs on the other heroes and done his homework in regards to their abilities. In regards to Robin, Batman is already starting to realize that Dick is smarter than he thought and

Fair enough, but I'm wondering what you have read because, off the top of my head, his Daredevil runs are the only things I can think of that don't have that absurdist undertone. Even something as dark as Elektra Lives Again (an overlooked gem) has a lot of playfulness going on.Hmmm lets see his first Daredevil issue i think (the one where Bullseye kills Elektra)
Batman Year one i'm pretty sure and this one right here.
i watched Sin City the movie but haven't read the comic really since i'm not a big fan of black and white comics (i'm picky about artwork)

[JoeCool]

I don't know. Being a huge Frank Miller fan I picked up this series at the get-go but have just had my problems with it. Even so, I decided to stick with it through the LOOOOONG delay and even an issue after.

But that was it. I decided enough was enough, even though I still read the new issues at the store because I am hoping to see something to bring me back. But it isn't happening. Yeah, Jim Lee's cover with the Joker and the Dragon Tat was ALMOST enough but I never buy anything JUST for art.

There is something seriously wrong with this series and i just cannot put my finger on it.

Maybe I am being spoiled by the INCREDIBLE freaking run on All-Star Superman, maybe I am being too nitpicky, but this storyline is choppy, the dialogue boring and the series just plain uninteresting.

I am hoping that they pull me back but right now I am enjoying the regular Batman and Detective series 10x more than this.

[Punch]

Hmmm lets see his first Daredevil issue i think (the one where Bullseye kills Elektra)
Batman Year one i'm pretty sure and this one right here.
i watched Sin City the movie but haven't read the comic really since i'm not a big fan of black and white comics (i'm picky about artwork)

Ok Yeah I see how you would have that opinion then. Besides All-Star, those are his most straight-forward works.

The Sin City comics, the early ones that is, have some truly amazing art work, but to each his own. The movie was OK, as a huge Miller fan though,( and no fan of Robert Rodriguez to begin with) I must say that it doesn't come close to the book. That absurdist tone I brought up in the earlier post is much harder to capture in film. I've said this before, but Tarantino captures that tone perfectly in his films. No surprise that I thought his segment in Sin City was more interesting than the rest of the film.

If you like what you've read I suggest you dig deeper. Miller is much more versatile than he gets credit for, some fans have extremely short memory spans.

[pariah-1972]

Ok Yeah I see how you would have that opinion then. Besides All-Star, those are his most straight-forward works.

The Sin City comics, the early ones that is, have some truly amazing art work, but to each his own. The movie was OK, as a huge Miller fan though,( and no fan of Robert Rodriguez to begin with) I must say that it doesn't come close to the book. That absurdist tone I brought up in the earlier post is much harder to capture in film. I've said this before, but Tarantino captures that tone perfectly in his films. No surprise that I thought his segment in Sin City was more interesting than the rest of the film.

If you like what you've read I suggest you dig deeper. Miller is much more versatile than he gets credit for, some fans have extremely short memory spans.I don't know how i feel about his work really it's critically acclaimed, but its also heavily misogynistic and violent and he has a tendency towards shock tactics and his artwork or the artists he usually chooses to work with i personally think are crappy.
and i think a lot of that acclaim has gone to his head to where he feels he can do whatever he wants.

[Punch]

I don't know how i feel about his work really it's critically acclaimed, but its also heavily misogynistic and violent and he has a tendency towards shock tactics and his artwork or the artists he usually chooses to work with i personally think are crappy.
and i think a lot of that acclaim has gone to his head to where he feels he can do whatever he wants.
whoa, wait I have to disagree with just about everything you've stated. I don't find anything misogynistic about Miller's work. Violent, yes, but what superhero book isn't?
As for the artists he's worked with, they may not be your taste, but they are some of the most respected and influential artists to work in the field.

Sienkiewicz
Mazzuchelli
Darrow
Gibbons
Bisley
and now Jim Lee, who is the weakest of the list, and if Lee is your weak link, that's a damn good list.
what do you find crappy about them?

also, what shock tactics are you referring to?

[pariah-1972]

whoa, wait I have to disagree with just about everything you've stated. I don't find anything misogynistic about Miller's work. Violent, yes, but what superhero book isn't?
As for the artists he's worked with, they may not be your taste, but they are some of the most respected and influential artists to work in the field.

Sienkiewicz
Mazzuchelli
Darrow
Gibbons
Bisley
and now Jim Lee, who is the weakest of the list, and if Lee is your weak link, that's a damn good list.
what do you find crappy about them?

also, what shock tactics are you referring to?Hate Sienkiewicz with a passion, i am not into abstract artwork and i don't think it belongs in a comic(but thats just my opinion.
theres a lot of comic books that aren't violent and i don't have a problem with violence if it is there for a reason and not just as a shock tactic.
aren't most of Frank Millers female characters hookers or prostitutes?
and when they aren't they are usually slutty or full of raging hormones (Elektra may be the exception)
shock tactics like putting a swastika on a girls naked boobs for no reason is a shock tactic to me.
i have yet to find a female that is a big fan of Millers work and i think that is pretty telling, my girlfriend got interested in this book because i was talking about it, but she read this issue and swore she wouldn't read this series again.
i don't want to come off sounding like a conservative,
but i have limits to what i can handle by one person, but i don't think it should be banned or anything it's just my opinions and views.

[Punch]

Hate Sienkiewicz with a passion, i am not into abstract artwork and i don't think it belongs in a comic(but thats just my opinion.
theres a lot of comic books that aren't violent and i don't have a problem with violence if it is there for a reason and not just as a shock tactic.
aren't most of Frank Millers female characters hookers or prostitutes?
and when they aren't they are usually slutty or full of raging hormones (Elektra may be the exception)
shock tactics like putting a swastika on a girls naked boobs for no reason is a shock tactic to me.
i have yet to find a female that is a big fan of Millers work and i think that is pretty telling, my girlfriend got interested in this book because i was talking about it, but she read this issue and swore she wouldn't read this series again.
i don't want to come off sounding like a conservative,
but i have limits to what i can handle by one person, but i don't think it should be banned or anything it's just my opinions and views.

Your entitled to our opinion( and so is your girlfriend) but you yourself said you haven't read much of his work. It is geared towards a male mentality, but is that wrong really? Like I said, I don't find anything he's done as outright offensive. There's also a backlash by some women against Alan Moore's The Killing Joke.(I myself find it a bit odd that DC made an action figure out of the TKJ Joker. How do you pose that thing? That's ok but the MJ statue isn't?)

Bruno(nazi transvestite)-shock tactics? Ok I'll give you that, but it's supposed to be absurd and that comes across much better in DKR. But it's hard to say most of his women are prostitutes. It may be technically true, but that's still a bit unfair, because a majority of his work is now Sin City stuff, which is partly about a town run by prostitutes. Also worth noting that he hardly ever actually shows them, um prostituting.

You should really try Give Me Liberty, even your girlfriend will like it. Female protagonist and not a hooker in sight! Seriously, it's an outstanding book.

(Gotta say this was the wrong issue to introduce your girlfriend to the series!)

[pariah-1972]

Your entitled to our opinion( and so is your girlfriend) but you yourself said you haven't read much of his work. It is geared towards a male mentality, but is that wrong really? Like I said, I don't find anything he's done as outright offensive. There's also a backlash by some women against Alan Moore's The Killing Joke.(I myself find it a bit odd that DC made an action figure out of the TKJ Joker. How do you pose that thing? That's ok but the MJ statue isn't?)

Bruno(nazi transvestite)-shock tactics? Ok I'll give you that, but it's supposed to be absurd and that comes across much better in DKR. But it's hard to say most of his women are prostitutes. It may be technically true, but that's still a bit unfair, because a majority of his work is now Sin City stuff, which is partly about a town run by prostitutes. Also worth noting that he hardly ever actually shows them, um prostituting.

You should really try Give Me Liberty, even your girlfriend will like it. Female protagonist and not a hooker in sight! Seriously, it's an outstanding book.

(Gotta say this was the wrong issue to introduce your girlfriend to the series!)Well most comic books are geared towards a "male mentality" but it's becoming more and more insular,
and that is why most women or girls prefer to read stuff like Manga.

i don't have a problem with Killing Joke at all really it made sense what Joker did and it wasn't gory at all.
i didn't even know she was a transvestite at first i thought it was supposed to be his version of Captain Nazi,
but there was no real reason for her to be there and dressing as she does and it was horrible distasteful and offensive.

and i didn't introduce her to this book mostly cause i didn't think she would get it or like it.
but she read the last issue and i told her the joker was coming up and she wanted to read this one.

[the goddamn batman]

I jsut want to start this off by saying that this post isn't an attack on you personally. Please don't take it that way. I'm simply tired of watching the internet accuse Frank Miller of things he isn't guilty of because a lot of people have decided to ignore the things that don't support their opinions.

I don't know how i feel about his work really it's critically acclaimed, but its also heavily misogynistic

It's actually not mysogynistic at all. Most superhero comic books are more mysogynistic than Miller's work, but we see what we want to see.

I guess when Miller writes strong, smart, independent, individual women who exist for reasons other than forwarding the male leads plot by being the damsel in distress... or refrigerator (your choice) it's somehow misogynistic.

I mean, the list of books starring black women is pretty small, and Miller's got a book on that list. He's probably written more female characters that aren't one note bimbo's than most other writers. But I guess when you put hookers in a town called SIN City, it's just him being an asshole. Despite the complete pieces of shit that are his male characters, and wheny ou really look at it, the only characters worth respecting in his books are often the women.

But, you know, it's got nothing to do with how we as a society judge peole. It's clearly Frank Miller's problems. :rolleyes:

Hate Sienkiewicz with a passion, i am not into abstract artwork and i don't think it belongs in a comic(but thats just my opinion.

1. What? Bill is one of the finest artist working in comics today. He's actually not an 'abstract' artist. He draws people. That's kind of the opposite of 'abstract art'. You'd know thatt if yuou knew anything about hte art you were knocking.

If you knew anything about the artist you "HATE" you'd know that he's so completely capable of other styles, has worked in them many times in his career, and has done recent work with Neal Adams, and you could barely tell who did what. Also? Bill's a freaking genious. Check out some of his work, you might be surprised at the things he's done in his amazing career. And he's not done yet.

2. It's such a completely bullshit comment to say that an art style doesn't belong in comic books (even if it is just your opinion). But, I'm just going to leave it alone because you've already shown that you simply do not know what you're talknig about. And it's just your opinion, which you're entitled to. Like how you like Kelly Clarkson's 'music'. :p

theres a lot of comic books that aren't violent

But we're talking about superhero comics and crime comics which are almost completely violent. Shit, superhero comics are endlessly violent. That's jsut what they're made of. Always have been, and always will be.

and i don't have a problem with violence if it is there for a reason and not just as a shock tactic.

How is Frank's use of violence simply a shock tactic? Examples please?

Also? Being a shock tactic is a reason. You might not like the reason, but that doesn't change that it is a reason.

aren't most of Frank Millers female characters hookers or prostitutes?

Most? No. I don't even think it's a 50/50 split. I think more of them aren't. Punch and I have had to do this beffore, probably when the last issue of this book came out, but no they aren't all hookers. Turns out the internet likes to forget/omit everything that doesn't support their argument.

Would like me to go over the list?

And, hookers are the same thing as prostitutes. ;)

and when they aren't they are usually slutty or full of raging hormones (Elektra may be the exception)

Ok... let's take a step back here and recount how many of Frank Miller's books you've even read. Are you just repeating shit you read on the interent? It's like you've jsut taken comments from past ALL STAR threads and reitterated them.

So, let me ask you to again, list examples of these 'slutty/hormonal' women you're referencing here.

shock tactics like putting a swastika on a girls naked boobs for no reason is a shock tactic to me.

I have a hard time taking this comment seriously when you refer to breasts as BOOBS.

I don't think it's a shock tactic. maybe for you it was shocking, but the rest of the world saw it back in 86. It's hardly shocking 21 years later.

i have yet to find a female that is a big fan of Millers work and i think that is pretty telling, my girlfriend got interested in this book because i was talking about it, but she read this issue and swore she wouldn't read this series again.

Dude, most women don't read COMICS! Trying to put his lack of female readership (which is only based the women you know? That's not much to go on... unless you know, like, all the women who read comics.) as an example of some profound statement about treatment of women in a male dominated industry like comics is pretty telling.

I think that comics as a whole are more guilty of the things your'e trying to put on Miller. Which is why most women don't read comics. They are by and for men.

But Frank Miller's editor at Dark Horse is a woman. His wife was his colorist on most of his books. I think that's pretty telling too. They didn't seem to have problems with his books. But maybe you, women who actually read comics, and the rest of the internet are unable to look past the word hooker to see the person that exists beyond it.

Also? I know women who like Frank Miller's books.

i don't want to come off sounding like a conservative,

Well, you do come off as sounding like you don't know what you're talking about, so, yeah, kinda like a conservative.

but i have limits to what i can handle by one person, but i don't think it should be banned or anything it's just my opinions and views.

It's not your opinion. You've stated already how little of the man's work you've read, so it's not you're opinion. It's the opinions of others that you're regurgetating on the internet. Be careful of that. The internet isn't as smart a place as it thinks it is.

[the goddamn batman]

i didn't even know she was a transvestite at first i thought it was supposed to be his version of Captain Nazi,
but there was no real reason for her to be there and dressing as she does and it was horrible distasteful and offensive.


1. She might and she might not be a transvestite. That's never been covered on a page. Someone said it here, and now it's being taken as true. We can assume based on her name and that she's got breasts, but all that is is us assuming things. That's never going to get anyone anywhere useful.

2. There was totally a reason for her to be there; She was in DKR and Miller was nodding to that. Given that DKR is the book that got Jim Lee interested iin seriously drawing comics, and he's working with his hero here, I think it was perfectly fitting to make that nod.

3. Keep in mind here that this is Gotham City. Frank Miller's Gotham City. It's a complete shit hole. It's the crappiest place on Earth. Depraved lunatics with Swastikas on their breasts walk around the streets in Miller's Gotham.

4. DKR was inspired by New York in the 80's and I wouldn't be surprised if that's something Frank actually saw on the street. He did live in Hell's Kitchen.

Offensive? No. Not really. Or even at all. Not for any reason I can find. I'm curious why you were so offended though. Do breasts offend you?

[lukababic]

I think the real question is when will TPB come out? Or will there be an Absolute edition like Hush, with Frank's and Jim's inscription saying: Goddamn!

[Paul Dee]

The bit where Batman says "Aww nuts, I'm talking to myself again - that's not good" or whatever was a Marv line straight out of Sin City wasn't it? Which of course doesn't make much sense considering the amount of monologues we've seen Batman do in this comic

[pariah-1972]

Goddamn Batman i am not going to respond to all you're posts cause you and i clearly disagree on lots of things and i don't really appreciate the personal attacks.
but i will say this.. you keep obsessing over my Kelly Clarkson comment from another thread where i didn't even say i liked her in the first place,
so i really don't know what you're deal is but it's becoming annoying i used one of her songs as an example of a song that i find really depressing and i even called it whiny and said i didn't like it,
now i do think she has some decent catchy pop rock singles from what i've heard and she can sing which clearly makes her better than 90% of the crap on the radio but i am not her biggest fan and i don't own any of her records so you really need to cut that out.


as far as breasts are concerned i don't have a problem with them at all i watch porn all the time,
but to have some chick walking around topless except for some swastika on her boobs and her having no purpose in this book is obviously used a shock tactic.
i have more of a problem with that than Joker strangling a woman and being written differently cause i can at least reasonably justify why those things happened.
i'm sorry if you have issues with me and my opinions wither they are right or wrong,
but i wish you would be a little more respectful we should learn to agree to disagree and sing kumbaya and shit personally.

and i am not a conservative but some people think that if you object to anything in the media that you somehow must be a conservative,

[CassandraL]

It's actually not mysogynistic at all. Most superhero comic books are more mysogynistic than Miller's work, but we see what we want to see.

I guess when Miller writes strong, smart, independent, individual women who exist for reasons other than forwarding the male leads plot by being the damsel in distress... or refrigerator (your choice) it's somehow misogynistic.

I mean, the list of books starring black women is pretty small, and Miller's got a book on that list. He's probably written more female characters that aren't one note bimbo's than most other writers. But I guess when you put hookers in a town called SIN City, it's just him being an asshole. Despite the complete pieces of shit that are his male characters, and wheny ou really look at it, the only characters worth respecting in his books are often the women.

But, you know, it's got nothing to do with how we as a society judge peole. It's clearly Frank Miller's problems. :rolleyes:


Just because Miller does or does not have female characters that doesn't make his work misogynistic, his work is misogynistic because he writes shallow, and 2-dimensional female characters.
He doesn't even try to write a female character well, it's always the same thing over, and over. I was appalled at how brainlessly his new Wonder Woman was written, and how un-believable she was.
I mean sure, he's turned Batman into a violent lunatic, and Superman into an overly-obsessive character, and of course that leaves Wonder Woman. Now because she's an amazon, I guess the obvious conclusion for Miller was that this automatically means that 'she hates men.' End of characterization, because that is her character. (To Miller any way.)
Now I wouldn't have a problem with Wonder Woman hating men, and being played-up as a bra-burning, feminist; but Miller has written Wonder Woman so bad that it makes my insides hurt. Okay she hates men, so what does Miller have her doing? She walks around the city all day TALKING TO HERSELF about how much she hates men. (Because obviously the more times you say it, the more developed your character becomes, and the more true it is.)
Miller wouldn't know how to write a good female character is someone wrote a book on 'The Idiots Guide to How to Write a Believable Female Character' was shoved down his gullet.
I am also reminded of a Batman comic from the start of the year that featured nothing but Black Canary looking rather sultry working as a bar waitress who did nothing but steam about how she hates men through-out the entire comic.
How is that good writing? Two words, it isn't.

I don't have a problem with prostitute characters, I really don't; the problem I have is that Miller always takes one of his re-used formulas for a female character, and slaps a face to it.

[pariah-1972]

I would also like to argue that he doesn't seem to understand insanity very well.
insane people don't go "oh am i talking to myself again? i must be crazy"
especially when he wasn't actually talking to himself in the first place:rolleyes:

[CassandraL]

Agreed. That was a rehash of an old joke of his any way, proving again that Miller is incapable of writing anything new, and stepping away from his comfort zone.

[pariah-1972]

Agreed. That was a rehash of an old joke of his any way, proving again that Miller is incapable of writing anything new, and stepping away from his comfort zone.I didn't know it was a joke:confused:

[the goddamn batman]

Goddamn Batman i am not going to respond to all you're posts cause you and i clearly disagree on lots of things and i don't really appreciate the personal attacks.

I jsut want to start this off by saying that this post isn't an attack on you personally. Please don't take it that way.

;)

but i will say this.. you keep obsessing over my Kelly Clarkson comment from another thread where i didn't even say i liked her in the first place,

Dude, it was just a joke. Lighten up a little. Jeez.

as far as breasts are concerned i don't have a problem with them at all i watch porn all the time,

That's a strange comment from someone complaining about misogyny in comic books.

but to have some chick walking around topless except for some swastika on her boobs and her having no purpose in this book is obviously used a shock tactic.

Again, maybe 20 years ago it was, but the shock has worn off. It was a nod to DKR. Plain and simple. There is nothing else there. It wasn't shocking, nor was it intended to be. It was a nod.

i'm sorry if you have issues with me and my opinions wither they are right or wrong,

I don't have a problem with you. I said that my problem is Miller getting accused of things he's not guilty of. My only problem with you personally isi that you're talking out of your ass about a body of work you haven't even read.

Your comments about Seinkeiwicz bothered me. To say that the art style of a living legend who's influenced a generation of artists, who did shit 20 years ago that peple still can't match, but who's effects are still being felt today, who's palce in comics has been earned, and will never be forgotten doesn't have a place in comics is just flat out wrong. Your opinion or not. It's absolutely wrong.

Anyway, I don't have a problem with you personally.... I tried to make that clear. I thought we could just argue about comics or whatever, but I guess not.

Just because Miller does or does not have female characters that doesn't make his work misogynistic, his work is misogynistic because he writes shallow, and 2-dimensional female characters.

Ummm... hat eto burst your bubble, but that's not at all what misogyny is. Misogyny is a HATERED of women, not a lack of good character development.

Like I said though, the internet likes to ignore what doesn't support its argument.

He doesn't even try to write a female character well, it's always the same thing over, and over.

One could argue that he does the same of his male characters... so, does Miller hate men too? That would kind of cancel out the misogyny, wouldn't it?

Miller wouldn't know how to write a good female character is someone wrote a book on 'The Idiots Guide to How to Write a Believable Female Character' was shoved down his gullet.

Two words; Martha Washington.

I am also reminded of a Batman comic from the start of the year that featured nothing but Black Canary looking rather sultry working as a bar waitress who did nothing but steam about how she hates men through-out the entire comic.
How is that good writing? Two words, it isn't.

I never said it was. But I'm not willing to base a 20 year career and countless books on one 22 page issue of an obvious parody (good or not).

I don't have a problem with prostitute characters, I really don't; the problem I have is that Miller always takes one of his re-used formulas for a female character, and slaps a face to it.

I'm assuming you've not really read all of Miller's work. Because that just simply isn't true.

Agreed. That was a rehash of an old joke of his any way, proving again that Miller is incapable of writing anything new, and stepping away from his comfort zone.

I thought the problem with this book, and DKSA was that they weren't like Miller's older work.

[Corrina]

I give you Gail Simone's take on Frank Miller's characters:

"they run the gamut from whore to dead whore."

I like his Sarah Essen in "Year One" and Carrie Kelly in DKR, but those were about twenty years ago.

Then again, most of the characters in this book are two-dimensional and uninteresting, save for the comedy aspect. Which I do find very funny some of the time.

Others, the boob Nazi and the Joker snuff scene are just...well...dull and uninspired.

ETA: Martha Washington was created in the early 1990s, and Elektra even before DKR. Both of those good characters but so were the men in those stories. He seems to have settled into a template and degenerated. Which is too bad because Year One is my favorite Batman story ever.

[CassandraL]

Okay then I guess Miller is more of a horrifically bad writer than a misogynist then; either way I don't like his work.

[Captain Jim]

Let's all try to take it easy and work hard not to make personal attacks on other posters.

GD Batman, maybe you need to take a break from this thread. You always seem very passionate about your defense of Miller (nothing wrong with that), but it always seems to result in personal attacks on other posters. Enough of that. I don't want to start deleting posts again.

[the goddamn batman]

I give you Gail Simone's take on Frank Miller's characters:

"they run the gamut from whore to dead whore."

I like his Sarah Essen in "Year One" and Carrie Kelly in DKR, but those were about twenty years ago.

Then again, most of the characters in this book are two-dimensional and uninteresting, save for the comedy aspect. Which I do find very funny some of the time.

Others, the boob Nazi and the Joker snuff scene are just...well...dull and uninspired.

Jeez, even Gail SImone likes to ignore things that don't support her argument when she gets on the internet.

Then again, I find Gail Simone (as a person) to be rather full of herself most of the time I read anything she's said.

Also? I don't really care for her comics. They, to me, really seem to jsut be the other extreme, which isn't the solution.

Her Batgirl pitch sounded great though. (That was her wasn't it... the angel of the bat thing?)

[CassandraL]

So... you like Frank Miller, and don't think he's full of himself, but you think Gail Simone is...?

[the goddamn batman]

So... you like Frank Miller, and don't think he's full of himself, but you think Gail Simone is...?

I don't think we need to put words in my mouth, thanks.

I never said Miller isn't full of himself. I did say that I don't find his work to be full of misogyny. Thos are different things.;)

[CassandraL]

Sorry I did not mean to put words in your mouth. :)

[the goddamn batman]

It's ok.

I appreciate Gail's intent, I just don't think her work is the answer that she does.

I don't find one extreme to be any better than the other. WHile I may enjoy one more than the other, one isn't the answer to the other. It's balance, and I don't feel it's there in Gail's work. But I'll admit I've not read much of her work, so my opinion is based on pretty limited experience. It never appealed to me, so I've not followed her work.

[mattx110]

Sienkevitz isn't an abstract artist!

[pariah-1972]

Jeez, even Gail SImone likes to ignore things that don't support her argument when she gets on the internet.

Then again, I find Gail Simone (as a person) to be rather full of herself most of the time I read anything she's said.

Also? I don't really care for her comics. They, to me, really seem to jsut be the other extreme, which isn't the solution.

Her Batgirl pitch sounded great though. (That was her wasn't it... the angel of the bat thing?)So it's ok to have one extreme and not the other?
it wouldn't be so bad if everyone and there mom tried to be like Frank Miller i suppose.
i don't think Gail is full of herself anymore than any other comic book writer who has had success.
i wish more writers would be like Gail and not throw in stuff that seems to me to be nothing but shock tactics i would like a balance between the "grim and gritty" and whatever style Gail is doing which i assume is a modern take on the silver age maybe?
and gd batman i don't think we should be comparing comic books and porn they are two different things.
Sienkiewicz may be the greatest artist alive but i can't stand his work.


and most writers i have seen on here ignore things that don't support there arguement.
and i'm saying this as a person who wasn't that crazy about her first issue of Wonder Woman so i think i am impartial.

[the goddamn batman]

Abstract art:

http://images.google.com/images?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=abstract+art&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi

Bill Sienkiewicz:

http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&um=1&hl=en&client=safari&rls=en-us&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=Bill+Sienkiewicz&spell=1

Yeah, not at all the same.

[the goddamn batman]

So it's ok to have one extreme and not the other?

It's ok to be the other extreme. It's NOT ok to think that one extreme is better than the other, or that it's the answer to the other.

it wouldn't be so bad if everyone and there mom tried to be like Frank Miller i suppose.

I dunno.... I think the last 20 years of Batman comics have been rather shitty.

and gd batman i don't think we should be comparing comic books and porn they are two different things.

If you don't see what I was getting at there, or how weird of a comment that was considering your previous comments, then I don't really know what to say.

Sienkiewicz may be the greatest artist alive but i can't stand his work.

I never said you had to like his work. But to say that it has no place in comics? That's like... I dunno.... weird. Your entitled to your opinions, but when they border on trying to exclude something just because you personally don't like it? Man, that's not ok.

and most writers i have seen on here ignore things that don't support there arguement.

Doesn't make it ok. Everyone might be jumping off a bridge today at 5pm, but it's still stupid.

[pariah-1972]

If you don't see what I was getting at there, or how weird of a comment that was considering your previous comments, then I don't really know what to sayI only watch lesbian or playboy type stuff so theres nothing misogynistic about those.
and like i was saying you can't compare the two there different mediums.
all i'm saying about Sienkiewicz is that in my personal opinion i don't think it belongs in a comic book especially a mainstream super hero one.

[mattx110]

all i'm saying about Sienkiewicz is that in my personal opinion i don't think it belongs in a comic book especially a mainstream super hero one.
I like my comics boring and artistically derivative too.

[pariah-1972]

I like my comics boring and artistically derivative too.isn't all art derivative of something else?

[Captain Jim]

Pariah, enough of making fun of Sienkiewicz's name!

[pariah-1972]

Pariah, enough of making fun of Sienkiewicz's name!Sorry Jim i just thought it was funny but i will stop now.
:o

[mattx110]

isn't all art derivative of something else?
not necessarily self-derivative. There's more to art than comics, and it's nice for someone to go "hey, this Will Eisner chap and this Gustav Klimpt guy could make a nice style if someone smushed em together!"

Not "well, i like Neal Adams, Barry Windsor-Smith etc." There's enough guys doing that in comics. If we want to be accepted as serious art because we know we're better than 90% of the art world, we need to be able to cite Leonardo and Giacometti as well as Jack Kirby and Leo O'Mealia.

As an artist though.

[pariah-1972]

not necessarily self-derivative. There's more to art than comics, and it's nice for someone to go "hey, this Will Eisner chap and this Gustav Klimpt guy could make a nice style if someone smushed em together!"

Not "well, i like Neal Adams, Barry Windsor-Smith etc." There's enough guys doing that in comics. If we want to be accepted as serious art because we know we're better than 90% of the art world, we need to be able to cite Leonardo and Giacometti as well as Jack Kirby and Leo O'Mealia.

As an artist though.I don't think comics are ever going to be seen as serious art i'm afraid.

not like a picasso painting.

[the goddamn batman]

Pariah, enough of making fun of Sienkiewicz's name!

:D

Dix caractères au maximum

[the goddamn batman]

I don't think comics are ever going to be seen as serious art i'm afraid.

not like a picasso painting.

Not if we try to exclude actual artists making actual art.

(I think Bill is endlesslly more interesting than Picasso...)

[pariah-1972]

Not if we try to exclude actual artists making actual art.

(I think Bill is endlesslly more interesting than Picasso...)So you don't consider most comic book artists real artists? but Bill is the exception?

[the goddamn batman]

So you don't consider most comic book artists real artists? but Bill is the exception?

When did I say that? They're artists. I'm an artist. The last thing I'd do is slight someone based on style.

What I'm saying is that Bill's art is much more 'fine art' than most people working in comics. Most comic art is 'pop art'. Bill's art, while it certainly has it's roots in comic art, also has a much heavier influence from fine art than most.

[pariah-1972]

When did I say that? They're artists. I'm an artist. The last thing I'd do is slight someone based on style.

What I'm saying is that Bill's art is much more 'fine art' than most people working in comics. Most comic art is 'pop art'. Bill's art, while it certainly has it's roots in comic art, also has a much heavier influence from fine art than most.Like possibly abstract art?;)

[mattx110]

I don't think comics are ever going to be seen as serious art i'm afraid.

not like a picasso painting.
Picasso did some sequential work.

The real artists are already convinced. In my University experience, the best student artists are those with cartooning or comics in their backgrounds. Some teachers are less than accepting, but their overall mentality is such a misunderstanding of what makes something "Cartoony" that we just have to try to educate them, or ignore them. Oddly enough, it may stem from a "modern arti" inferiority complex that causes this current art establishment generation to see more abstract things as needing validation, while maybe Lichtenstein is ok, becuase he supposedly took the best of popular art, and did something to it, when really the opposite is true. Cartooning made him who he was, and is becoming a larger influence on draughtsman every decade, while the current post-modern art attitude is really about stretching medium, and non-representational sculpture, and patterning. Massive geometricism.

Personally, I think compositional analogues to language and music make it evident that comic artist are pulling ahead based on the fact that a "page" is itself a montage that shows time, and spacial relationships. We have "cognates" and "tangent lines" to blend shapes and the ability to dynamically compose on a page something that has a very advanced descriptive grammar.

Repetitive themes, hidden imagery, figurative use of color.
IE: The artist uses circles in multiple ways within the page, and draws a point of relationship where the second instance of the circle has a subject within the first, while there is also a diagonal structure that makes the object of the page the final panel, which is of course a cliff-hanger/suspension That leads to the next splash-page which continues the Circular lens theme, and contains complements to the colors within the previous two instances of this thematic device.

I know, what I'm saying isn't that clear and may be a bit convuluted, but this is something I am developing to understand composition. It can either be a modern treatise on thematic development in art, or suck. I make no guarantees either way.

[pariah-1972]

I don't understand why someone like Scott Kolins is not as heavily praised as Sienk but is obviously influenced by him.

[the goddamn batman]

Like possibly abstract art?;)

He might have an influence from abstract art, but that doens't make him an abstract artist who works in an abstract style.

If you're going to talk about art styles, you should probably know a thing or two about them. The simple fact that Bill draws people pretty much excludes him from the "abstract" category.;)

[pariah-1972]

So that makes him an abstract comic book artist instead of a regular Abstract artist.

[mattx110]

So that makes him an abstract comic book artist instead of a regular Abstract artist.
No, it doesn't! It makes him an expressionist if anything.

edit: the exclamation isn't in anger or anything. It can come off as that, but it's not.

[the goddamn batman]

I don't understand why someone like Scott Kolins is not as heavily praised as Sienk but is obviously influenced by him.

Are you saying that Scott is influenced by Bill or Bill by Scott?

I've never heard Scott mention Bill as an influence, and I don't really see it in his work.

[the goddamn batman]

So that makes him an abstract comic book artist instead of a regular Abstract artist.


Dude... seriously? You don't know ANYTHING about art. I mean, Whickey Tango Foxtrot!?!

Bill isn't an abstract artist. He just isn't. There is no way that Bill's work can be taken as abstract art. Abstract art by nature does NOT depict objects. It's color and mood. It isn't sequential. It doesn't depict people.

Bill would be expressionist or impressionist, but not abstract. Do you even know what abstract means?

Seriously, you're giving me a headache.

[pariah-1972]

Are you saying that Scott is influenced by Bill or Bill by