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Assassin Spider
11-28-2007, 12:04 AM
It seems, in the eyes of a lot of fans, that DC Comics editorial is forcing characters they don't like or find no use for down their throats. Yet, there are those of us who happen to like those disliked or "useless" characters and we often wish we could find a way to convince detractors to take a second, closer look at those characters. My idea is that part of the reason those characters are so disliked is that there doesn't seem to be a clear plan in mind for them that makes sense, given their history and characterizations. Thus, I thought we could use this thread to come up with character arcs for them.

Jason Todd: The "misbegotten" second Robin who used to be dead until a temporal flux undid his death, Jason comes from the streets and maintains a certain "street" sensibility when it comes to fighting crime. He's also shown a degree of contempt for adult heroes who preach from their ivory towers about the sanctity of life while insulated from the cruel reality that life is not sacred to most of the scumbags they fight, along with a sense of empathy for some of the modern generation of teen sidekicks. (See Green Arrow 69-72 for more on that.) Combine those things with his often-lethal propensities where fighting crime is concerned and you have an "anti-villainous" neo-Deathstroke in the making.

For those of you who don't know, an anti-villain is an antagonist whose ends may be heroic or noble in intent but whose means are highly morally questionable if not utterly in line with how malevolent villains tend to operate. That's Jason in a nutshell, here: He wants to fight crime by more permanently incapacitating (by maiming or killing) those that would persistently prey on innocent people if not stopped and, on some level, he wants to protect some of the younger sidekicks from going through what he did while thumbing his nose at the sanctimonious and self-righteous adult heroes. Let's show him doing that, fighting crime at the street level in Gotham, in New York, in Metropolis, all over the north end of the East Coast, going after criminals that Batman, Nightwing, Red Arrow, and Superman don't have the testicular fortitude or the inclination --- as Jason sees it --- to bother with. Let's show him acting as a foil to these adult heroes by mocking their idealistic notions, their seeming squeamishness, and what he sees as their hypocrisy. Let's show him as a foil to "successful" sidekicks like Nightwing and Red Arrow who have grown into capable young adult heroes in their own right and the current crop of teen sidekicks, in the sense of reminding Nightwing and Red Arrow of what could happen if they falter in their "big brother" roles toward their successors and in the sense of showing the younger heroes how they could turn out if their relationships with their adult mentors or their heroic careers go sour.

As a further development, let's show Jason developing tense working relationships with the younger heroes and, despite his seeming eagerness to needle and challenge them, reveal through his inner thoughts/monologue that he has some empathy for them because he can see himself in them and, on some level, he wants to protect them from what he went through. Let's see those working relationships create tensions between the adult heroes and the teen heroes while some of the teen heroes start to question the ideals of their adult mentors. In fact, even later down the line, Jason can become a sort of "rebel icon" for the more anti-authoritarian younger heroes like, say, Black Alice.

Throughout it all, Jason should remain as primarily a "dangerous ally" to the hero community (particularly at the street level), someone whose basic goals aren't very far removed from theirs but whose methodology is completely untenable by their standards. As a result, he is largely mistrusted by the hero community, although he does maintain pleasant acquaintance-level relations with a few of the younger heroes here and there, particularly younger heroes who have experienced life on the wrong side of the proverbial tracks.

And no, there will not be a story arc where Jason saves a city or the world and the hero community is left in his debt; that's not how it's going to work. Jason's role is basically as a "friendly antagonist" to the heroes, someone who's there to show them the flaws in their worldview and methodology but who will occasionally deign to help them when he feels they have a common goal or enemy and they'd be better off working together than against each other. (But let's make it clear that they won't come to him first.)

Anyone else have ideas?

stelok
11-28-2007, 01:42 AM
Yes, Zauriel, Crispus Allen/Spectre, Billy Batson, the female Japanese Doctor Light, Mr. Terrific, Talia, Ilsa von Hammer, Deathstroke, Deadshot, Ragdoll and Katana need more character development.

Drift
11-29-2007, 07:08 AM
Deathstroke doesn't need development if you ask me, he needs less exposure.
Plus last time they tried some CD on him they came up with the Deathstroke: The Terminator series which was awful. "Am I a hero? Am I a villain? I just don't know." and then straight back to being a bad guy mercenary and the series was never mentioned again.

I am glad they have decided to concentrate on some of the lesser known guys like Booster Gold though. Bring back Ted Kord and I can be happy again.

Slaughter
11-29-2007, 08:02 AM
DC has been good with character development lately. Sinestro, Black Adam and Booster Gold are some of the best examples.

I think that Power Girl needs some character development, through. The end of the entire origin mess enhanced it.

hangmanjury
11-29-2007, 08:23 AM
Batwoman, obviously, since she hadn't had any yet.

handOFfate
11-29-2007, 10:10 AM
Yes, Zauriel, Crispus Allen/Spectre, Billy Batson, the female Japanese Doctor Light, Mr. Terrific, Talia, Ilsa von Hammer, Deathstroke, Deadshot, Ragdoll and Katana need more character development.

Deathstroke is badly overexposed. Also, his current personality is pretty well fleshed out.

Mr. Terrific's character is well-defined. Johns has done a terrific (pun intended) job with him. Same with Power Girl.

Deadshot needs a mini written by Gail Simone.

Agree with everyone else.

Robin3
12-02-2007, 09:00 PM
It's funny, I was thinking about this topic when I came to the board today. DC has a lot of B and C-list heroes that they don't get rid of. I think DC tends to be more conservative with its storytelling and character management. With marvel, you imagine that there's some sort of survival-of-the-fittest mentality with respect to characters and even writing staff: everything has to stay popular or it goes. DC seems to try to protect its old guard heroes, and for some reason, doesn't seem to get the best artists.

That said, the topic is how to develop B-list characters, which yes, DC loves to try. I think what they did with Black Adam was awesome. BA is now an A-list character, and he's more useful than even the character he was designed to be a villain for, Captain Marvel.

The thing is, BA's personality fits very well with his popularity. Generally, only alpha characters can hold their own book unless it's a humor book. The problem then is that a lot of DC's B-list characters are on B-list teams. They need some alphas to hold them together.

For example, instead of having the all B-list Metal Men, have one or two metal men on a team with some alpha characters leading them. The outsiders is a good example of this: Nightwing is necessary because Metamorpho and Black Lightning just aren't going to hold the team together, nor keep the sales up.

Eclips0
12-03-2007, 04:20 AM
Firestorm- My god can they finally give him real control over his powers? When Stein became Elemental Firestorm at last we had someone who could kick some real ass cosmicly. Now he's become the Old Dr Light of the DC Heroes.

botch
12-03-2007, 04:28 AM
It's funny, I was thinking about this topic when I came to the board today. DC has a lot of B and C-list heroes that they don't get rid of. I think DC tends to be more conservative with its storytelling and character management. With marvel, you imagine that there's some sort of survival-of-the-fittest mentality with respect to characters and even writing staff: everything has to stay popular or it goes. DC seems to try to protect its old guard heroes, and for some reason, doesn't seem to get the best artists.

That said, the topic is how to develop B-list characters, which yes, DC loves to try. I think what they did with Black Adam was awesome. BA is now an A-list character, and he's more useful than even the character he was designed to be a villain for, Captain Marvel.

The thing is, BA's personality fits very well with his popularity. Generally, only alpha characters can hold their own book unless it's a humor book. The problem then is that a lot of DC's B-list characters are on B-list teams. They need some alphas to hold them together.

For example, instead of having the all B-list Metal Men, have one or two metal men on a team with some alpha characters leading them. The outsiders is a good example of this: Nightwing is necessary because Metamorpho and Black Lightning just aren't going to hold the team together, nor keep the sales up.

I don't think it's a popularity thing, it's more of a relevant thing. example. Who knew Iron fist only needed the words of Ed Brubaker and it's now one of the best comics Marvel has released in the decade.

Taskmaster
12-03-2007, 09:50 AM
Deathstroke is badly overexposed. Also, his current personality is pretty well fleshed out.

Deadshot needs a mini written by Gail Simone.

Agree with everyone else.

I agree he's over exposed, but Deathstroke's current personality is horrible and runs contrary to his personality in everything since the Judas Contract including his own series and many Titans appearances, heck I could never see Superman asking this Deathstroke to lead the heroes in a war. I wish we could get some explanation why Deathstroke changed so much, at least at the start we could say he was infected by Jericho, but what's his excuse now.

Yes please on the Deadshot mini by Gail, too bad DC seems to be ignoring everything Secret Six (see Deadshot's countdown profile for what I mean)

Fatguy
12-03-2007, 11:24 AM
Batwoman and the new Spectre, really needs to happen!

Choppa
12-03-2007, 12:00 PM
At the end of Jason's arc he needs to be killed by the Joker again.

blckng
12-03-2007, 02:31 PM
I agree he's over exposed, but Deathstroke's current personality is horrible and runs contrary to his personality in everything since the Judas Contract including his own series and many Titans appearances, heck I could never see Superman asking this Deathstroke to lead the heroes in a war. I wish we could get some explanation why Deathstroke changed so much, at least at the start we could say he was infected by Jericho, but what's his excuse now.

Yes please on the Deadshot mini by Gail, too bad DC seems to be ignoring everything Secret Six (see Deadshot's countdown profile for what I mean)

Deathstroke made sense up until Infinite Crisis. I mean, while the clients were different and the stakes were higher after Identity Crisis, and in the IC buildup, it wasn't until he decided "lol, let's bomb Bludhaven" that he really went off the deep end. And when you look at the stuff leading up to it: Starfire killing Adeline, Joey killing Wintergreen, the idea that he would kill a hundred thousand people just to get back at Nightwing for making Rose question her motives is patently absurd. I was hoping that would be something Tomasi would cover once he got on Nightwing, but a Deathstroke mini would work too.

Power Girl needs more. JSA is juggling too many characters to focus in on any single one for more than a few pages. Mr. Terrific may not get that much panel-time in JSA, but he's got a lot going for him in Checkmate. Still, I wouldn't say no to a solo mini, or a buddy book with Dr. Mid-Nite.

I REALLY want to see some of the Seven Soldiers characters appear elsewhere. Frankenstein, Shilo-Miracle, Bulleteer, Misty Killgore, etc.

Taskmaster
12-05-2007, 11:44 AM
Deathstroke made sense up until Infinite Crisis. I mean, while the clients were different and the stakes were higher after Identity Crisis, and in the IC buildup, it wasn't until he decided "lol, let's bomb Bludhaven" that he really went off the deep end. And when you look at the stuff leading up to it: Starfire killing Adeline, Joey killing Wintergreen, the idea that he would kill a hundred thousand people just to get back at Nightwing for making Rose question her motives is patently absurd. I was hoping that would be something Tomasi would cover once he got on Nightwing, but a Deathstroke mini would work too..

That would be awesome if somebody would take on Deathstroke and explain why he's acting so psychotic, because before he was a mercenary, but he had a sense of honor, he once stopped Cheshire from doing basically the same thing that he now did to Bludhaven. This is a guy who once saved a senator and led the heroes in battle against an alien threat and now he's a stereotypical (although still bad ass) mustache twirling villain. Can we get some explanation PLEASE?

Sean Izaakse
12-11-2007, 02:36 AM
I just wanna go on record as saying that Roy Harper needs to get some time to shine. The Arsenal mini series was awsome and he's a great character but doesn't get any credit. I mean the guys fought Deathstroke on his own and survived as well as Vandal Savage and the KGBeast!