Compare/Contrast: Kal-L and KC Superman

[IdiotGod]

Kal-L
http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/8715/superstruggleno0.jpg




Kingdom Come Superman
http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/8308/jsacv10solicitxt9.jpg

how do you think they are alike or not alike in personality, character, look, etc.?

[MaxofSteel]

The most obvious difference between them is the worlds they come from. Kal-L's world was ideal. It may have had it's fair share of problems (Batman dying, etc), but it wasn't necessarily a world filled with angst.

KC Supes on the other hand is the complete opposite. His world sucked hard. "Heroes" fighting "heroes", chaos on the streets, and so on.

Kal-L saw what was going on in the main DC Earth and saw a world filled with problems. KC Supes must see main DC Earth as a paradise compared to his.

One main similarity they happen to share though is that both have lost their Lois Lanes at some point (although KC Supes' Lois was murdered by the Joker, whereas Kal-L's Lois died of old age or something like that).

[lovefist911]

If Kal-L thought Kal-El's earth was bad enough, he would've had a heart attack if he ever saw KC Supe's Earth-22.

[IdiotGod]

but didn't the AoS issue show Kal-L on Earth=1 and reg Supes on E2? and Kal-L ended up imprisoning other metas and stuff?

[lovefist911]

They're too different in my opinoin, KC Supes is way powerful from years of solar exposure and Kal-L grew weaker with age. There's more differences than similarities. I just want to see Prime's reaction to seeing KC Supes for the first time.

[IdiotGod]

so they had different environments and worlds but how are they alike/not alike in personality and actions?

[bethanycabe69]

so they had different environments and worlds but how are they alike/not alike in personality and actions?


I think they are very similar in their concept of what's right & wrong behavior for heroes (no killing).

KC would probably acknowledge the existence of "gray" areas of morality more than E2/GA Superman, but only if pressed.

KC could be said to have a shorter "fuse" (when really pushed) than E2/GA Supes.

All I could think of for now....;)

[lovefist911]

Jessica Rabbit said "I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way."

[IdiotGod]

GA Supes never had anything against killing really. i don't think he was Punisher-style in he'll kill all crooks but if a criminal had to die, he was not fussed about it.

[bethanycabe69]

Jessica Rabbit said "I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way."


DUH! So I changed it to a comic artist term, big deal!:rolleyes:

[bethanycabe69]

GA Supes never had anything against killing really. i don't think he was Punisher-style in he'll kill all crooks but if a criminal had to die, he was not fussed about it.

So why was he so outraged about what Wonder Woman did to Max Lord, etc?

[Buried Alien]

I think they are very similar in their concept of what's right & wrong behavior for heroes (no killing).


Kal-L killed early in his career (check out some of those old Golden Age ACTION and SUPERMAN comics), although he later foreswore needlessly killing. He ended his career with a kill (Anti-Monitor) as well.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[bethanycabe69]

Kal-L killed early in his career (check out some of those old Golden Age ACTION and SUPERMAN comics), although he later foreswore needlessly killing. He ended his career with a kill (Anti-Monitor) as well.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

OK, I stand (somewhat) corrected. Was just my take on the characters.:)

[IdiotGod]

horrible pain and imminent death? oh well. mind if I take this?
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b107/Nik_TehPimpXor/Superdicklol.jpg
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b107/Nik_TehPimpXor/Superdicklol2.jpg

this guy likes electrocuting people. So Supes returns the favor
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b107/Nik_TehPimpXor/LightningDick.jpg

[lovefist911]

DUH! So I changed it to a comic artist term, big deal!:rolleyes:

Well at least you know, still makes you look a bit ignorant.

[NotSuper]

They're too different in my opinoin, KC Supes is way powerful from years of solar exposure and Kal-L grew weaker with age. There's more differences than similarities. I just want to see Prime's reaction to seeing KC Supes for the first time.
Kal-L actually grew stronger from age. He started out leaping and only having limited invulnerability, but by the time of the first Crisis he was almost as strong as the pre-Crisis, Earth-1 Superman. He's even fought him to a stand-still before. He's much stronger than Kingdom Kal.

[NotSuper]

Personally, I never saw Earth-2 as an ideal world. It was certainly darker than Earth-1. Kal-L probably saw some vile stuff during his early career, being in the middle of the war and all. However, in his world the heroes were still pure in the face of great evil. I think that's why the post-Crisis Earth angered him so much, it was a world where the line between hero and villain was less clear.

[Buried Alien]

Kal-L actually grew stronger from age. He started out leaping and only having limited invulnerability, but by the time of the first Crisis he was almost as strong as the pre-Crisis, Earth-1 Superman. He's even fought him to a stand-still before. He's much stronger than Kingdom Kal.

We got a brief glimpse of the power differential between Kal-L and New Earth Kal-El in the final issue of INFINITE CRISIS. During the battle against Doomsday in Metropolis, Doomsday was able to knock down and bloody Kal-El with his knuckles, as Doomsday has always been able to do in his past encounters with Kal-El. Against Kal-L, however, Doomsday's knuckles *broke* on contact with Kal-L, and Kal-L dispatched Doomsday with far greater ease than Kal-El ever has.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[NotSuper]

We got a brief glimpse of the power differential between Kal-L and New Earth Kal-El in the final issue of INFINITE CRISIS. During the battle against Doomsday in Metropolis, Doomsday was able to knock down and bloody Kal-El with his knuckles, as Doomsday has always been able to do in his past encounters with Kal-El. Against Kal-L, however, Doomsday's knuckles *broke* on contact with Kal-L, and Kal-L dispatched Doomsday with far greater ease than Kal-El ever has.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
Indeed. When Kal-L envisioned himself defeating Doomsday WITHOUT dying (during the mind-meld between the Supermen), I don't think he was being arrogant. He's both stronger than the New Earth Superman (who I see as being stronger than the post-Crisis version) and probably a better fighter too. He did start off with relatively limited powers and probably had to develop better combat skills.

[Buried Alien]

Indeed. When Kal-L envisioned himself defeating Doomsday WITHOUT dying (during the mind-meld between the Supermen), I don't think he was being arrogant. He's both stronger than the New Earth Superman (who I see as being stronger than the post-Crisis version) and probably a better fighter too.

I loved how Kal-L caved in Doomsday's skull with his knee. That was just a classic Golden Age Superman move. You could tell that Kal-L wasn't afraid...wasn't even intimidated by Doomsday. He was completely confident that he could defeat the monster.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[NotSuper]

I loved how Kal-L caved in Doomsday skull with his knees. That was just a classic Golden Age Superman move. You could tell that Kal-L wasn't afraid...wasn't even intimidated by Doomsday. He was completely confident that he could defeat the monster.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
Both Kal-L and the pre-Crisis Kal-El were extremely confident. But while Kal-El was confident because he was unbelievably powerful and didn't need to fight much, Kal-L was just a bad-ass (albeit one with a heart of gold). He was willing to do things the other heroes wouldn't, and would gladly sacrifice himself to achieve a greater good. It was appropriate that he stopped the Anti-Monitor (who makes Doomsday look like nothing).

[IdiotGod]

well, it says it in the AoS issue where the two Supermen swap woelrds. E2 is supposed to be a black-and-white world. evil is evil and good is good.

but somehow when Kal-L attempts to introduce this idea in E1 and lead by example as he says, it leads to failure and other heroes turnin gon him. "no one should have the power Superman has" is the exact quote IIRC

[superfriend]

they are both Dissapointed Supermen.

[PatrickG]

Did anybody else think that throwing post-COIE Lex in the Phantom Zone was okay?

I mean, regular Superman tossed his buddy Mon-El in there to save his life.

I see nothing wrong with tossing Lex in there. It's the problem with making him too big of a threat and too persistent of a threat.

I don't think Superman should be an executioner. I also don't think he should tolerate evil just because juries and judges are too corrupt to convict.

If Lex killed one, two or even ten people then I can see letting it stay within the justice system. But Lex has killed hundreds of humans. Technically millions if you count THE SILVER AGE: JUSTICE LEAGUE by Mark Millar which is set in post-COIE continuity.

I don't think Superman should take a life but I also don't think Superman put a cape and costume on to be a legally appointed police officer. At the point where somebody is a mass murderer and more specifically a mass murderer who's inspired to more and more heinous crimes by a rivalry with Superman... I think Superman should break his toys, lock him away personally and challenge the world to disagree with him.

And if Superman has considered these kinds of actions and stopped because he wants the approval of his fellow heroes and earth, because he believes it would it would be counterproductive, then I think that makes his friends and his world out to be a pretty miserable if they don't want Superman to stop a mass murderer.

Super-heroes exist to circumvent the system's failings and Superman should be no exception.

He doesn't need to abide by police rules of evidence discovery because he's a civilian. He should be able to illegally obtain evidence against a corrupt businessman and it should stand up in court. He gets a slap on the wrist for breaking and entering and Lex goes down for murder.

And if the court wouldn't convict with hard evidence then the system is flawed and Superman should oppose it and super-heroes should stand with him in flagrant defiance of the law. They exist to promote justice in SPITE of the law as vigilantes and it's only because they're good and honorable people that they TRY to uphold the law. But when the law is broken, they should ignore it for the greater good.

I mean, if super-heroes don't exist to bend or break the law then "Secret Identities" just become a crutch to shield family from celebrity and you should start questioning why most actors or politicians don't have them.

A secret identity IS a violation of public trust and its purpose, dramnatically, is to allow a hero to go against the system and use their powers with impunity. To have a normal life in spite of using powers and abilities outside the system to promote justice.

The idea of a super-hero is meaningless if you don't presuppose that the world is wrong and the system is wrong and that an individual guided by their own principles is the solution to cutting through complicated societal ills.

I think that should apply to Superman as well.

[Devil_LeonX]

I loved how Kal-L caved in Doomsday's skull with his knee. That was just a classic Golden Age Superman move. You could tell that Kal-L wasn't afraid...wasn't even intimidated by Doomsday. He was completely confident that he could defeat the monster.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

A scan of this marvelous event anyone?

[Mon-el]

A scan of this marvelous event anyone?

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/6970/icsupesfg7.th.jpg (http://img246.imageshack.us/my.php?image=icsupesfg7.jpg)http://img471.imageshack.us/img471/448/icsupes2mk9.th.jpg (http://img471.imageshack.us/my.php?image=icsupes2mk9.jpg)

.................

[hYPE]

If Kal-L thought Kal-El's earth was bad enough, he would've had a heart attack if he ever saw KC Supe's Earth-22.

This is so true my friend. Would have had a heart attack!

[CYOTI]

Against Kal-L, however, Doomsday's knuckles *broke* on contact with Kal-L, and Kal-L dispatched Doomsday with far greater ease than Kal-El ever has. Didn't the same thing happen when Supes fought Doomsday shortly after OWAW?

[PatrickG]

Didn't the same thing happen when Supes fought Doomsday shortly after OWAW?

Doomsday killed Superman again but this time Black Lightning revived Superman successfully and Superman argued to Doomsday that any fight would end with Doomsday dying again. And since Doomsday had acquired intelligence, he realized that avoiding dying was better than beating an opponent when given the choice.

[marshal99]

Doomsday killed Superman again but this time Black Lightning revived Superman successfully and Superman argued to Doomsday that any fight would end with Doomsday dying again. And since Doomsday had acquired intelligence, he realized that avoiding dying was better than beating an opponent when given the choice.

Eh ? :confused:

No idea what you are talking about ?!

Doomsday simply doesn't pose much of a threat anymore to superman nowadays , not after his first initial appearances and his 2 mini series.

I found it strange that they depicted Kal-L in infinite crisis as seeing things as so black and white , it was never as simple as that on earth 2. E2 was never that "perfect" , i think like superboy prime , his views became askew over time being isolated in that bubble dimension.

On earth 2 , the JSA were brought before congress in the 50s on charges and were told to reveal their civilian identity. They disbanded rather than exposed their identities and later after the JSA reformed , they were arrested and went on trial after the lost "diary" of E2 batman accused them of being spies.

[PatrickG]

Eh ? :confused:

No idea what you are talking about ?!


Superman #175, collected in the Doomsday omnibus.

[Khan Zor-El]

Earth-1 Superman: Inferior

KC Superman: Superior

[NotSuper]

Earth-1 Superman: Inferior

KC Superman: Superior
The Earth-1 Superman was the Silver/Bronze Age version. We're talking about the Earth-2 version, who by the time of the first Crisis was almost as strong as his Earth-1 counterpart.

Unless Kingdom Kal can move planets and travel through time, which Kal-L CAN do, he's NOT superior. Period.

[Khan Zor-El]

Ooops, I meant Earth-2. Well if he was so strong why was he leaping 1/8 of a mile instead of flying?

[NotSuper]

Ooops, I meant Earth-2. Well if he was so strong why was he leaping 1/8 of a mile instead of flying?
That was when he was first started his career. As Kal-L got older, his powers increased. Eventually he gained the ability to fly, to survive blasts greater than a bursting shell, and his speed increased as well. He could even travel through time under his own power.

By the time of the Crisis, he was ALMOST ("almost" because he was elderly at the time) as powerful as the pre-Crisis, Earth-1 Kal-El.

[Khan Zor-El]

He seemed weaker, if anything else by the time Infinite Crisis took place.

[NotSuper]

He seemed weaker, if anything else by the time Infinite Crisis took place.
I'm talking about the original Crisis on Infinite Earths, NOT Infinite Crisis. And he only seemed weaker because (as shown in the Superman titles) he and Kal-L were melding minds. (Basically, they switched lives in their own minds and lived them out differently, due to their different personalities--but this was only in their minds.) Kal-L is capable of moving planets and traveling through time, something our Superman could never do. In fact, Kal-L first learned about HIS Krypton by going back in time.

He also gave Doomsday a severe beating in Infinite Crisis, as has been shown in this thread.

[Khan Zor-El]

I'm talking about the original Crisis on Infinite Earths, NOT Infinite Crisis. And he only seemed weaker because (as shown in the Superman titles) he and Kal-L were melding minds. (Basically, they switched lives in their own minds and lived them out differently, due to their different personalities--but this was only in their minds.) Kal-L is capable of moving planets and traveling through time, something our Superman could never do. In fact, Kal-L first learned about HIS Krypton by going back in time.

He also gave Doomsday a severe beating in Infinite Crisis, as has been shown in this thread.

Please explain then, your supposedly "stronger" Kal-L in this pre-crisis(COIE) story:
http://comicspriceguide.com/cover2.asp?tid=456&cid=494

He was pretty weak for being the older, stronger Superman.

[NotSuper]

Please explain then, your supposedly "stronger" Kal-L in this pre-crisis(COIE) story:
http://comicspriceguide.com/cover2.asp?tid=456&cid=494

He was pretty weak for being the older, stronger Superman.
He traveled through time under his own power in Superman #61. No version of Superman since the Crisis could do that. He could also fly from planet to planet with ease, something our Superman has always had trouble with.

As I said, Kal-L first discovered his Kryptonian heritage by going back in time under his own power. If Superman Through the Ages was still around then I could show you this story.

[Khan Zor-El]

You're talking about a Superman who killed nazis and juggled planets and was later "powered down" due to slow sales and too much superness way before John Byrne furthered his power down in 1987, the result, the Kal-L who became weaker with age and died in IC. And you still didn't expain DC comics presents Annual #1.
http://comicspriceguide.com/cover2.asp?tid=456&cid=494

[NotSuper]

Another good example to show Kal-L's closeness in power to his Earth-1 counterpart is JLA #74 (first series).

[NotSuper]

You're talking about a Superman who killed nazis and juggled planets and was later "powered down" due to slow sales and too much superness way before John Byrne furthered his power down in 1987, the result, the Kal-L who became weaker with age and died in IC. And you still didn't expain DC comics presents Annual #1.
http://comicspriceguide.com/cover2.asp?tid=456&cid=494
I'm not sure what Byrne's reboot has to do with anything (also, it happened in 1986). We're talking about the pre-Crisis DCU. Kal-L grew stronger with age. He could fly to different planets and stars, use heat vision, and time travel by the time his powers had built up.

As for the annual, it all depends on interpretation of the writers. However, there are far more comics showing Kal-El and Kal-L as near equals than as being far apart in powers, and that includes the Crisis itself. I've already cited some of those.

[Khan Zor-El]

You're talking about writer's interpretation, all writers wrote his strenth the same after the first power down, it was not the same planet juggling Superman in terms of strenth, but still the same Kal-L none the less that "first appeared" in Justice League of America #73, . The same Superman your talking about from the 70's was still weak in other stories compared to the Bronze age/Modern age Superman (Kal-El). Kal-L was weaker in DC Comics Presents Annual #1 and in the 1980's All Star Squadron.

[Iroquois]

Kal-L's power aside, let's not forget KC Superman's power. The guy survived a multi-megaton nuclear blast "capable of wiping out a county" with not so much as a scratch. It's not exactly a walk in the park.

[NotSuper]

You're talking about writer's interpretation, all writers wrote his strenth the same after the first power down, it was not the same planet juggling Superman in terms of strenth, but still the same Kal-L none the less that "first appeared" in Justice League of America #73, . The same Superman your talking about from the 70's was still weak in other stories compared to the Bronze age/Modern age Superman (Kal-El). Kal-L was weaker in DC Comics Presents Annual #1 and in the 1980's All Star Squadron.
And he was stronger than in both of those interpretations in the Crisis. In Crisis he was keeping up with the Bronze Age Superman, and certainly didn't need to leap instead of fly; in fact, he had all of the same powers. And if he was written as being stronger in Crisis, then clearly his power level was not consistent after the supposed power down. And since this was his last canonical appearance, his powers should be the same now as they were then. Unless being in limbo affected him, but I doubt that.

[Khan Zor-El]

See the thing that gets me is in IC he seemed weaker while Prime was strong as hell once he touched some yellow sunlight. Kal-L should've torn Kal-El apart in their fight after his Lois died. Don't get me wrong, I liked Kal-L, but his power was never consistant, that was wrong.