My thoughts on the multiverse, final crisis and DC's problems in general.

[Eclips0]

I think the Multiverse will still be around after final crisis, I think part of the purpose of countdown is to map the new multiverse. Assign numbers to each one thats been done in some elseworlds story or another and hopefully leave some new ones to do more of them.

But I think DC would have to make the choice of etheir keep the Multiverse and just try not to do storylines that convolute and confuse people or if they want to dump the concept, then just turn Final Crisis into one giant reset button with one universe. And never look back no matter how much they want to.

A complete restart, saying exactly what happened in the past and what didn't and leave it at that. I know that would annoy people who are fans of stories and characters in the past that were wiped out for the sake of a stable continuity but I think it's worth it.

If they don't do something like this with Final Crisis, this problem will keep coming up. Because I think we have seen by now there is no real way to fix continuity and keep every event in the past part of it.

Ironically, the best attempt at this was Zero Hour and the creation of hypertime. After Zero Hour they mostly tried to do what I stated above and created the idea of Hypertime, making it no longer a multiverse but just alternate timelines, which is what marvel does basically and it works better that way in my opinion.

But people got upset because this meant throwing away allot of historical DC events, which didn't bother me because I can still go back and read and enjoy them whether they are now an accepted part of the DC timeline or not.

But sometimes DC is it's own worst enemy because they avoid simple solutions to problems and instead find complex and confusing ones to their readers.

Example: The Jason Todd resurrection.

Easy explanation: Someone dug him up and used the Lazarus pit to bring him back to life.

DC's Version: Superboy Prime punched a magic wall which retconned his death, but for some reason he still had to be put into the pit anyways.

See my point here?

The only solution to this problem as I see it is

a)To wipe out the multiverse, it is and always has been the cause of problems and just start fresh. Along with this, publish a book stating what actually happened in the past and what is now just an "alternate timeline" piece.

b)Start going with the easy explanations for things and avoid the Jason Todd type messes that convoluted explanations cause.

Readers will be upset but they will eventually accept it and it will make things easier for DC in the long run.

[Roquefort Raider]

a)To wipe out the multiverse, it is and always has been the cause of problems and just start fresh. Along with this, publish a book stating what actually happened in the past and what is now just an "alternate timeline" piece.

For my part, I see no problem with the multiverse. It even makes a lot of sense and allows us to have classic heroes acting in different eras. The only confusing issue with the multiverse is when efforts are made to tie everything together (like when conflicting continuities are fused, as is apparently the case with Wonder Woman right now).

b)Start going with the easy explanations for things and avoid the Jason Todd type messes that convoluted explanations cause.


For that kind of mess, my advice to writers and editors would be: don't do things that you'll have a hard time living with later. As in "don't kill major characters in a trivial attempt to give gravitas to a stupid summer cross-over event".

[Buried Alien]

I don't think DC has a problem at the moment. They're having a gas with this Multiverse stuff and so are the fans who are following it. Some people don't like the Multverse concept and never will, but is that DC's problem, or the naysayers'?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Eclips0]

It's not that they don't like the multiverse idea it's that if you have it then things start to get convoluted, this was the reason for the original Crisis. The mistake they made was starting over yet keeping the history of the past, instead of simply starting anew with no connection to the past.

[gwor]

It's true that things would've been alot simpler if DC would've stayed with a clean slate once Crisis ended.

As a matter of fact, most of their main titles did reboot without referencing too many prior stories.

The confusion begins when writer A decides to drag some obscure plot or character into a current (relative historically) story. The problem is compounded when writer B uses the exact same plot/character, but written completely differently than A (either because he/she didn't know or didn't care).

If there were alot fewer titles, continuity could stand a chance; editorial guidance would be simpler, and even the multiverse concept could be clear and alot of fun.

[Eclips0]

Exactly, if they had just kept to the post crisis reboot and left the pre-crisis world to die off into memory, it would've solved allot of problems.

[Babylon23]

Personally, I don't think a reboot is necessary. What I'd prefer to see is a History of the DC Universe-style book for all of the major characters and teams. Just do a one-shot in the Wolfman/Perez format for each character/team where all of the important events in their history are clearly laid out.

Then make sure that the writers stick to it. Make them "character bibles" and ensure that both writers and editors know what's in and what isn't.

[kentonindy]

Exactly, if they had just kept to the post crisis reboot and left the pre-crisis world to die off into memory, it would've solved allot of problems.
The problem there is that the post-Crisis world sucked in a lot of ways. Diana's reboot royally screwed up Donna and the Titans, while Superman's reboot did the same to the Legion. Titans and LSH were DC's biggest selling books at the time of COIE. And both of those reboots abandoned several key elements from both characters' commonly known histories. Furthermore, the Hawkworld reboot screwed up JLA continuity, and eliminating Supergirl from existence, one of the big four female characters at DC (Diana, Batgirl, Supergirl, Lois Lane), was a huge mistake also.

DC obviously learned their lesson here and reintroduced their current multiverse so that they could avoid just such a mess this time around. They are surely going to introduce a brand new universe during or after Final Crisis which they will slowly populate with new versions of their classic characters. Clark and Lois won't be married. Dick will be Robin to Bruce's Batman. Diana will again be new to Man's World.

None of these reboots, however, will interfere with the continuity of the current New Earth. More legacy characters will emerge (like Renee as the Question and Freddy as Captain Marvel). Perhaps even Batman and Wonder Woman will be replaced.

And given the natural cycle of periodic reboots of established second-tier titles, these reboots will now take place on the Brand New Earth. The next Hawkman and Aquaman books will obviously take place here and not on New Earth.

[Mr.50]

1) Have Final Crisis

2) Have the multiverse survive in some form

3) Publish a separate "Histry of the DC Universe" for each surviving world (incorporating whatever prior continuity events into each separate world so they are all still continuity).

This allows readers to know which worlds survived; the history of each world; select the worlds they are interested in and only read those;

the big caveat is that DC can then only rarely allow crossovers between worlds to occur.

Mr.50

[Karl O'Neill]

I love the multiverse,

so much potential.

[Sandy Hausler]

Exactly, if they had just kept to the post crisis reboot and left the pre-crisis world to die off into memory, it would've solved allot of problems.

They couldn't really do that. At the time, the most popular books were Teen Titans and the Legion of Super Heroes, which had too many links to pre-Crisis stuff. The only real way to have made Crisis work would have been to start each hero from his origin. And they couldn't do that.

Sandy Hausler

[Eclips0]

They couldn't really do that. At the time, the most popular books were Teen Titans and the Legion of Super Heroes, which had too many links to pre-Crisis stuff. The only real way to have made Crisis work would have been to start each hero from his origin. And they couldn't do that.

Sandy Hausler

Yes they could've, it's wouldn't have been easy but they could done something similar to Zero Hour, just put out an issues explaining the new history of the character and go from there.

[xnef1025]

Yes they could've, it's wouldn't have been easy but they could done something similar to Zero Hour, just put out an issues explaining the new history of the character and go from there.
Remember though, you are saying that with the experience of a 2007 comics fan. Official reboots, retcons and origin retellings are old hat to us now. In '85 that kind of thing was a new idea. Adherring so strictly to continuity was still relatively new. Marvel still gave no-prizes for fanwanking fixes to continuity mistakes, afterall.

[Lord Trigon]

it would have been easy if we never got the new earth but some how got a few characters back.


no you know there was an anti matter earth well they could have made about five other earths that had the same people on it but not the same.

why not just have more earths in the style of anti-matter earth two that ultraman lived on.

[gwor]

At the time of Post-Crisis, I wondered why there was such a problem with Superman reboot. Legion should've just gone on without referencing Superboy (saying that Superman was their inspiration is too simple a solution, I guess). Donna Troy should've simply disappeared, with a new Wondergirl eventually introduced (like Byrne ended up doing).

Continuity is only a problem when writers think too hard to come up with convoluted solutions to simple inconsistencies.

[Shellhead]

At the time of Post-Crisis, I wondered why there was such a problem with Superman reboot. Legion should've just gone on without referencing Superboy (saying that Superman was their inspiration is too simple a solution, I guess). Donna Troy should've simply disappeared, with a new Wondergirl eventually introduced (like Byrne ended up doing).

Continuity is only a problem when writers think too hard to come up with convoluted solutions to simple inconsistencies.

Good ideas. And logically, DC shouldn't have authorized that Hawkworld idea except as an Elseworld. There were some neat ideas, and the story itself was great, but it caused a lot of problems with Hawkman.

[Rattlehead]

The problem with DC is that they really never had a problem to begin with. They've been convincing themselves that they have a problem ever since CoIE. Just launch an Ultimate style line, but not crappy like the UU, call it Earth 2, and play around with the characters there. That way everybody gets what they want.

[Eclips0]

Thats exactly my point, DC's problem is that it's trying so hard to please everyone. When what they should do is simply pick a direction and stick with it. There will always be complainers, they need to learn to ignore them.

[BoosterBronze]

The problem with DC is that they really never had a problem to begin with. They've been convincing themselves that they have a problem ever since CoIE.

I agree indubitably.

Would Hawkman have been an worse character if half his stories weren't desperatly trying to make his post COIE origin(s) make sense?

Would Donna Troy be better if the mystery of her existence (which I believe was a publishing fluke) just wasn't worried about as much?

I don't think it's a problem. I just wish they'd let the dead horse alone.

[kentonindy]

Good ideas. And logically, DC shouldn't have authorized that Hawkworld idea except as an Elseworld. There were some neat ideas, and the story itself was great, but it caused a lot of problems with Hawkman.
A simpler explanation would've been to place the Hawkworld series 10 years in the past. Many of us who read the book in real time assumed the book was a flashback at first.

[gwor]

The thing that makes me laugh nowadays is how DC keeps piling stuff onto the reader and releasing zillions of titles that aren't 'reader friendly' (some footnote captions sure would help).

For example, they have a Teen Titans book sollicited with cool, weird art (by Kerschel, probably spelled incorrectly <g>) that features the pre-C team.

I wish they could take the time to let us know how their books fit into an overall tapestry. It all seems so random, like 'Oh, go ahead and publish that' without considering the Big Picture.

I whine because I've been a DC fan forever, and am dismayed by the apparent disarray behind the scenes....

[DayWing]

This is what they should have done post-COIE -

1. Wonder Woman - maintain that she started out around Superman's time and that she co-found the JLA. Just update her origin like Superman's. Leave Donna alone, she was too good a charcter at the time and still is. Loved "Who is Wonder Girl" which was one of the best Dick GRayson stories ever.
2. Hawkman - the writers should have admitted that they made the mistake between Hawkworld the mini and the ongoing and made the ongoing an elseworld title later on. I now can't think of the JLA's original HAwkman stories (including Giffen's) without getting a headache...sort off. This despite what Geoff did. What about the Katar Hol fans?????!! Ironically, I only started liking HAwkman (Carter) after reading Geoff's "Return of Hawkman".

3. Supergirl - They should not have brought her back recently. Before this and IC, I always imagined the post-COIE earth as a merged earth as how it was supposed to have been before the multiverse formed. Meaning that all aspects of the previous Earths (1, 2, X) combined. So there is still something of silver-age Kara in Power Girl and something of the GA Robin in Nightwing. Its silly, but so much simpler to digest. And I really liked Matrix too. :(

The worst to me was Wonder Woman. Despite a good run by Perez, having WW start in the present time post-COIE was not necessary and ruined a lot of things, particularly with Donna and the JLA. At least most of the other characters history flowed properly from pre-COIE to post (except HAwkman of course).

My point of view of course. I am one of those that only got into DC after COIE.

[TROUBLEZ]

I liked the story "Who Is Wonder Girl," and "Who is Donna Troy."

Yeah, it doesn't make sense that Wonder Woman rescued a baby girl that later became her sidekick because: Wonder Woman and Batman started fighting crime at around the same time. How can Donna and Dick be around the same age if Batman had a 10-11 year old sidekick a little after he became the Batman? If WW rescued Donna as a baby, either way their would be a large age gap between Robin and Wonder Girl.

For me, I DON'T CARE!

Maybe when Donna got purple ray'd in Themyscira she aged faster there because time works a little differently there, or maybe the effects of that process on her body made her age rapidly at first, with it slowing down to a regular rate after her body had adjusted to her powers. Or if that doesn't work oh well. If Batman can still be slightly under middle aged and yet have had Robin I grown up into a mid to late 20s man, have had Robin II trained and then die, and now have a Robin III, surely Donna's age/time discrepencies can be pleasantly ignored.

After reading some Teen Titans trades Donna Troy is a very likeable character, but everything after her red and yellow costume era seems way too confusing for me to follow.

[TROUBLEZ]

They should just go back to the the multi-verse but no 52 Earths.

Just the way things were before Crisis on Infinite Earths, and style it after Marvel's Ultimate Line. Have it be the alternative to DC's regular titles (JLA, BATMAN, WW, Superman, etc).

DC-2 Lineup:

JSA
Infinity Inc. (never read the original but the name is cool and has interesting characters)
The Huntress
...well, more, I'm not too familiar with the original Earth 2 titles.

But yeah, something like that. I would keep Earth 2 Superman and Batman (was WW there too?) appearances as supporting characters because in my opinion, the real attractions aren't the E2 counterparts, but the original heroes of that Earth like Power Girl, Huntress, Infinity Inc, and of course JSA.

The only bad thing is that all the Helena Bertinelli fans, Speedster Family fans, time displaced Power Girl fans, etc., will be pissed, but I think it's an interesting concept. Maybe if they introduced this new Terra in this DC-2/Earth 2 concept, it would be better, and not piss on stories like the Judas Contract. And it would be alot easier too follow.

[Jon-El]

I've said it before in another post. Had they left the Multiverse alone in 1985, we wouldn't be in this mess!! However, had they moved forward and never looked back (referencing pre-Crisis concepts like Krypto, Phantom Zone etc....) things might have worked as well also. I know I had moved on but everytime someone brought back something from way back I got excited.

I got no answer. It's too messed up. I do hope some sort of multiverse exists. I don't want continuity set in stone. Just me. Marvel does a great job of evolving and moving forward but I don't enjoy their work (much of which is good) anymore.