Civil War: Directors' Commentary

[Dr. Chaos]

http://www.wizarduniverse.com/magazine/wizard/006443758.cfm?page=1

Pretty cool and interesting read.

It's almost funny to hear how Millar was trying to make Iron Man look like the good guy, he could not have missed the mark any further than he did.

[XPac]

http://www.wizarduniverse.com/magazine/wizard/006443758.cfm?page=1

Pretty cool and interesting read.

It's almost funny to hear how Millar was trying to make Iron Man look like the good guy, he could not have missed the mark any further than he did.

Yeah. He goes on and on about how Cap throws the first punch and screws Tony, yet kind of ignores the fact that Cap acts after Tony shoots at Caps people.

If Millar's agenda was to make Tony more sympathetic by having Tony lure the Secret Avengers there with a fake emergency before shooting at them, he really needed to go back to the drawing board there. The resulting fan reaction was really what he should have expected. There are ways to make Tony come off as more sympathetic... but that wasn't it.

[mindcrime]

Yeah. He goes on and on about how Cap throws the first punch and screws Tony, yet kind of ignores the fact that Cap acts after Tony shoots at Caps people.

If Millar's agenda was to make Tony more sympathetic by having Tony lure the Secret Avengers there with a fake emergency before shooting at them, he really needed to go back to the drawing board there. The resulting fan reaction was really what he should have expected. There are ways to make Tony come off as more sympathetic... but that wasn't it.





tried to make tony look like the good guy. mmm.....i would be truly scared if he tried to make tony look like the bad guy. ( what is this guy thinking )? as far as who shot 1st, are you talking about the fight in civil war #3?

[XPac]

tried to make tony look like the good guy. mmm.....i would be truly scared if he tried to make tony look like the bad guy. ( what is this guy thinking )? as far as who shot 1st, are you talking about the fight in civil war #3?

I think Millar's problem was that he made the character act to hyper extreme to the point of making them almost unrecognizable.

Cap and Tony were able to meet and talk to each other without lies or manipulation on two seperate after this. It's only Millars version of their meeting where they are completely incapable of not acting like 2 descent human beings for more than 2 seconds.

[GreenLantern85]

Wow all i can say is that millar and mcniven could possibly be the biggest tool bags in the world after reading the part about kids wanking off to the pics, and how all these parts of the series were great they just seem like some really big d bags

[SquidSquod]

Cap side: Joy buzzer, going against the law, hmm... that's all?

IM side: CLOR, Thunderbolts, War-profiteering, NZ Prison, seek Spidey with force, cape killer.

It just doesn't match. Marvel's taking Cap side and painting Iron Man as Doom as obvious as the 12 pm sun.

[Love Machine]

I think Millar's problem was that he made the character act to hyper extreme to the point of making them almost unrecognizable.

Cap and Tony were able to meet and talk to each other without lies or manipulation on two seperate after this. It's only Millars version of their meeting where they are completely incapable of not acting like 2 descent human beings for more than 2 seconds.

Yep, exactly my problem with Civil War...

[XPac]

Cap side: Joy buzzer, going against the law, hmm... that's all?

IM side: CLOR, Thunderbolts, War-profiteering, NZ Prison, seek Spidey with force, cape killer.

It just doesn't match. Marvel's taking Cap side and painting Iron Man as Doom as obvious as the 12 pm sun.

Caps done a little more than that. He made a deal with Kingpin and perhaps was going to work with villians (I'm not sure they ever flat out said he was going to do it before Punisher killed themO.

But I do think Tony did a lot more things deserving of criticism than Cap. And for all Caps mistakes, he did admit them and was willing to hold himself accountable in the end. Tony did not. So if you judge them solely on the books, I think Cap came off looking better than Tony at least in the end.

But Marvems commentary on it seems to be a bit different. SOme writers have flat out said Tony is a bit of a badguy. But other writers and editors have defended Tony pretty vigorously. Though I wonder if that isn't just an issue of balance... they know a good percentage of the fan base is more sympathetic to Caps plight, so they're going the other way. Not sure though... that's just speculation.

[SquidSquod]

Caps done a little more than that. He made a deal with Kingpin and perhaps was going to work with villians (I'm not sure they ever flat out said he was going to do it before Punisher killed themO.

But I do think Tony did a lot more things deserving of criticism than Cap. And for all Caps mistakes, he did admit them and was willing to hold himself accountable in the end. Tony did not. So if you judge them solely on the books, I think Cap came off looking better than Tony at least in the end.


Tony did deal with Kingpin and Zemo, too. That's even before both villains dealt with Cap in CW War Crimes.

Marvel people just don't know how to handle Iron Man, and I think it's their loss for not able to lift the heroes without zero sum game where other heroes need to take bullets. I can't criticize IM because CW is not even handed at all.

[SquidSquod]

But other writers and editors have defended Tony pretty vigorously. Though I wonder if that isn't just an issue of balance... they know a good percentage of the fan base is more sympathetic to Caps plight, so they're going the other way. Not sure though... that's just speculation.

Editors defended Tony because deep down they know CW is never balanced and the end is just a better alternative to going back to ho-hum status quo.
Writers on the other hand pander on Tony hatred.

[Eallison]

Man, I don't know about anyone else, but this really shows an incredible disconnect between what was actually written and produced, and the (claimed) intent behind it.

Love the utterly nasty comment about Kirby's artwork by Millar (page 2 of the interview) - because, joke or not, it's a tasteless statement to make. Then to go on about the CW artwork (and Susan Richards' breasts) ... really classy ...

I'm still torn. Either these are some of the most clueless and skill-less creators ever to set pencil to paper, or we're getting a brilliant snow-job of epic proportions. I honestly don't know which, anymore.

Are they toeing the party line about Tony, knowing full-well how they wrote him? Are they completely oblivious to what they wrote? YOU decide!

It's a Choose-Your-Own-Adventure book from the 80's.

I will quote one bit;

"BEYOND CIVIL WAR
MILLAR: I didn’t look at a single thing after we finished." and;

"MILLAR: I love all the guys, but I just got too close. After all that time I had to go away and do something else. It would have felt like we were still working on the book if we read the new stuff."

Well, Mr Millar, if I had to judge by what I read, you didn't look at much BEFORE you wrote Civil War, either ...

Yeah, probably a cheap shot, but there's only so much arrogance I can take in one sitting.

Some day, the story will be told :D We'll hear who had incriminating pictures of who, and it will all fall into place :p

Take it and run.

[rZi]

Cool find, i always wondered if millar was going to have cap kill stark in that last panel you see in #cw 7...uhm i don't have the image to provide but it's cap raising his shield right before the civilians jump on him but his fight with tony has ended and shellhead something along the lines of "finish it steve"

Always made me wonder....

[The Master Meglomaniac]

Wow, they really don't care Jack O Lantern, do they?

[Mark_S]

MILLAR: We were kind of slightly shocked by some of the reaction because a lot of people saw Tony as the über-villain, and really if you read the core book, we really do play a balance.

That about says it all, the man has no idea what was written.

Mark_S

[BYC]

It's sad this is still being asked, but does Millar know Civil War was 616, not Ultimates with old costumes?

[Shellhead]

During the first Armor Wars storyline in Iron Man, Cap and Iron Man clashed, but it was written really well. Iron Man found out that a villain had stolen his technology years ago and then sold it to various other villains. So Tony became obsessed with destroying all of that tech, and went to increasingly extreme lengths to do so. After some early incidents, Tony publicly "fired" Iron Man, but Steve knew that Tony was Iron Man, so he confronted him.

They met face to face, out of costume, and discussed their conflicting viewpoints. Tony emphasized that, in this case, he believed that the ends justified the means. Steve firmly disagreed, and stood against that on principle.

So when Iron Man broke into the Vault (special prison for holding supervillains) to disable the Guardian suits that he designed, Cap was there to stop him. In physical terms, Iron Man easily won the fight, and used minimum force to beat Cap. But as a character, Tony really struggled with the situation. He knew that he was crossing a line that he never wanted to cross, but didn't think he had a choice.

Civil War could have been just as compelling a story as Armor Wars I. But writers like Millar got it backwards. Instead of starting with who the characters really are and what they stand for, they came up with an arbitrary story and just forced the characters to fit by ignoring characterization. The results were predictably bad, but the sales were so strong that we can expect more of the same in coming years.

[XPac]

Just so this doesn't totally become a Millar bashing thread, I DO think Millar is a great writer. And I do think the story, if looked at in a void seperate from the rest of the 616 continuity would be a fine read.

But his characterization was bad. He forced square pegs into round holes to make the story work, and the end result was quite a few recognizable characters.

I suppose the biggest difference (from a Cap and Tony perspective) is that other writers ignored Millars poor characterization of Cap for the most part (not unlike how Millar ignored Caps characterization for the past few decades), while in Tony's case they took the other extreme and in many cases made Tony WORSE than Millars already extreme potrayal.

Can't say it's necessariy a bad thing, since I do honestly believe it helped the Iron Man character become a true A lister in marvel. For all the criticism of the character, I honestly think he's a bigger star now than before. Can't say the same thing for Cap... but again, most other writers largely ignored Millars bad potrayal of the character, so no harm done there.