My problem with Final Crisis.

[Green Lantern wannabe]

I got back into comics after I picked up on Infinite Crisis, and, now, a year later, there's yet another universe/multiverse shaking Crisis. As I've posted before, after awhile, it gets boring.

The other thing I also don't like in the DC Universe is the dead coming back. Kal-L, the first superman, came back from the dead, and so did the Anti-Monitor. In fact, the entire GL Corps is back. Not only that, the JSA was supposed to be retired after COIE, twenty years ago, and they went off to a nice end by fighting for all time the evil demons so as to prevent the twilight of the Nordic Gods; but then they were brought out of that loop and back into the regular universe, so they could continue fighting regular bad guys; and, now, almost 60 years after WWII, when they were first active, they're still active.

If they can just come back, there's no feelings towards anyone passing away or even facing a tragedy, because that can just be undone. And that takes away a lot of value in fiction, because you're supposed to care about the characters, but, if their problems are just temporary, there's no point caring about their problems.

Am I making too much out of nothing?

[Froggy]

I'm not sure you are. There's plenty of fans with your same viewpoint I think

[Green Lantern wannabe]

Long time no see, pal. :)

[Buried Alien]

Probably. Twenty years is a long time for a comic book character to be away. Any character that hasn't been published in that many years is, for all intents and purposes, as good as dead, and his revival is a momentous event. I nearly pissed my pants when I saw Kal-L and the others on the final page of INFINITE CRISIS # 1.

I'm hoping FINAL CRISIS will provide other moments during which I will nearly need a change of underwear.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Froggy]

Long time no see, pal. :)
I know right? (still tyrign to get settled in new home)

but I think you've reached this certain peak with comics....well a certain ASPECT of comics. Your at the poitn where no death will shock you cause you KNOW they'll be back.......somehow or someway. heck only person STILL dead is uncle ben.....the deaths are just desensitized for you. Some writers I'm sure can help you out, and make you feel for that character if he does die. I think you just need a real good story....not sure what that story WILL be, but, you'll find it

[Green Lantern wannabe]

Probably. Twenty years is a long time for a comic book character to be away. Any character that hasn't been published in that many years is, for all intents and purposes, as good as dead, and his revival is a momentous event. I nearly pissed my pants when I saw Kal-L and the others on the final page of INFINITE CRISIS # 1.

I'm hoping FINAL CRISIS will provide other moments during which I will nearly need a change of underwear.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

You're right - twenty years is a long time. But Kal-L was sent to the other dimension for a reason ... because his time had come. What's the point of resurrecting him? In fact, what's the point of getting rid of the JSA if they were going to come back anyway?

[Buried Alien]

You're right - twenty years is a long time. But Kal-L was sent to the other dimension for a reason ... because his time had come. What's the point of resurrecting him? ?



Actually, the question is why did DC bring him back from limbo just to REALLY kill him? I wasn't expecting to see Kal-L again, was delighted that I did, but then disappointed that DC decided to do away with him more definitively.

The First Superhero deserved better.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Froggy]

You're right - twenty years is a long time. But Kal-L was sent to the other dimension for a reason ... because his time had come. What's the point of resurrecting him? In fact, what's the point of getting rid of the JSA if they were going to come back anyway? "It seemed like a good idea at the time"-random dc exec

bt I liked his ending in COIE, Kal L's.....he was given a slice of heaven.that was pretty respectful

Actually, the question is why did DC bring him back from limbo just to REALLY kill him? I wasn't expecting to see Kal-L again, was delighted that I did, but then disappointed that DC decided to do away with him more definitively.

The First Superhero deserved better.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

He got rodney dangerfield'ed?

maybe final crisis rectifies this?

[Green Lantern wannabe]

Kal-L's back - just go through the recent issues of the JSA.

[Buried Alien]

Kal-L's back - just go through the recent issues of the JSA.

That's not Kal-L; that's his look-alike, the Earth-22 (i.e. KINGDOM COME) Superman, whose youthful years resembled those of the Post-COIE Superman's more than Kal-L's.

All they really have in common is the greying hair.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Green Lantern wannabe]

That's not Kal-L; that's his look-alike, the Earth-22 (i.e. KINGDOM COME) Superman, whose youthful years resembled those of the Post-COIE Superman's more than Kal-L's.

All they really have in common is the greying hair.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Well, they all sorta look alike. But what's your source for saying that? I have to catch up with what's going on.

Froggy, you're right - I have to find the right story, especially at my age, LOL.

[Buried Alien]

Well, they all sorta look alike. But what's your source for saying that?

Check out the costume, and the events that the elder Superman from the current JUSTICE SOCIETY OF AMERICA issues is describing to the JSA members. That's the KINGDOM COME Superman costume, and those are KINGDOM COME events that Superman is describing. Greying hair aside, there's no mistaking this Superman for Kal-L of Earth-Two.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Angelo2113]

Well it's interesting because with the Justice Society I believe in the 1990's they explain they sent an "alternate" version of the JSA to Asgard so the real team can stay on Earth. Now during Zero Hour I believe they kill off a couple of main characters and ages the remaining JSA member. But now, the JSA is mostly part of the children of the orignal members, except Alan Scott, Jay Garett, and Ted Grant.

[smoothjokes]

Look up Kingdom Come on Wikipedia.org. it's an Elseworlds story by Mark Waid & Alex Ross, which became Earth-22 after 52 the series which created 51 Earths based-off New Earth when Mister Mind eat parts of the timestream to alter events to make the Earth's what they are now. Pretty much I believe Final Crisis will eliminate all but 10 earths at most, I'm think more of 5, a New Earth and an Antimatter New Earth, Wildstorm and two other Earths (I would go with the Vertigo Earth and an Earth 1 which would be a Silver Age Earth).

[Angelo2113]

Well I think the whole thing about bringing people back is because they'd play a big part later on in Final Crisis. Jason Todd and Donna Troy came back and are big parts in Countdown. It's like they brought the old Robin and Wonder Girl back, but killed off Superboy and Impulse.

[Choppa]

1. Final Crisis is the third part of a three part act. So complaining that it's getting boring right in the middle is like complaining about a middle issue of an arc that's not finished. You gotta appreciate the way it's all coming together.

2. We don't know for sure that this is the same Anti-Monitor. With the new multiverse being different than the old, it makes sense that this would be a new AM. IIRC this Green Lantern Corps isn't the old one brought back to life but a new generation spawned when Kyle gave up his Ion powers to reignite the central battery. The only lanterns that were brought back from the "dead" were the missing ones who turned out to not be dead at all.

3. Comics run in serial form, hence they are constantly getting reset to the status quo. Just look at the history of the DCU. For a while you will have some radical new changes, but eventually they always go back to normal. Hal is Green Lantern again, Superman is alive, etc.

[Christopher Cross Is God]

Check out the costume, and the events that the elder Superman from the current JUSTICE SOCIETY OF AMERICA issues is describing to the JSA members. That's the KINGDOM COME Superman costume, and those are KINGDOM COME events that Superman is describing. Greying hair aside, there's no mistaking this Superman for Kal-L of Earth-Two.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

All he needs to do is check out Justice Society of America #9 & 10 to know it's KC Superman and not Kal-L of Earth-Two.

It's an excellent series, so there's no loss in him checking it out.

[Aubergine~!]

[QUOTE=Green Lantern wannabe;5874076The other thing I also don't like in the DC Universe is the dead coming back. Kal-L, the first superman, came back from the dead, and so did the Anti-Monitor. In fact, the entire GL Corps is back. Not only that, the JSA was supposed to be retired after COIE, twenty years ago, and they went off to a nice end by fighting for all time the evil demons so as to prevent the twilight of the Nordic Gods; but then they were brought out of that loop and back into the regular universe, so they could continue fighting regular bad guys; and, now, almost 60 years after WWII, when they were first active, they're still active. [/quote]

I agree that death's taken too lightly in comics, but OTOH, you'll never be able to convince me that the DCU is worse off with the presence of the JSA & the GLC, both of whom have featured in fantastic stories over the past few years. And the thing is, no other entities could've stood in for those guys. Part of what made the recent stories about them great is their history.

So yeah, deaths' treated too lightly, but I can't complain when the stories are great.

[ShaggyB]

Look up Kingdom Come on Wikipedia.org. it's an Elseworlds story by Mark Waid & Alex Ross, which became Earth-22 after 52 the series which created 51 Earths based-off New Earth when Mister Mind eat parts of the timestream to alter events to make the Earth's what they are now. Pretty much I believe Final Crisis will eliminate all but 10 earths at most, I'm think more of 5, a New Earth and an Antimatter New Earth, Wildstorm and two other Earths (I would go with the Vertigo Earth and an Earth 1 which would be a Silver Age Earth).

hmm. it is possible but i really think youd loose some good stories. Ive enjoyed the search for ray palmer as they travel to the different worlds. Gotham by Gaslight and Red Rain were good. I look forward to Red Son. (my fav elseworld story) Id hate to see these done away with. Why not sperate the 51 worlds and Final Crisis create One Universe thats independent from the other 51. Ie no more jumping or crossing. Have 1 earth and 51 variants to tell stories with.

IIRC this Green Lantern Corps isn't the old one brought back to life but a new generation spawned when Kyle gave up his Ion powers to reignite the central battery. The only lanterns that were brought back from the "dead" were the missing ones who turned out to not be dead at all.

Wasnt Kilowag dead? I though hal killed him when he became paralax?

[Babylon23]

I got back into comics after I picked up on Infinite Crisis, and, now, a year later, there's yet another universe/multiverse shaking Crisis. As I've posted before, after awhile, it gets boring.

[QUOTE=Green Lantern wannabe;5874076] The other thing I also don't like in the DC Universe is the dead coming back. Kal-L, the first superman, came back from the dead, and so did the Anti-Monitor. In fact, the entire GL Corps is back. Not only that, the JSA was supposed to be retired after COIE, twenty years ago, and they went off to a nice end by fighting for all time the evil demons so as to prevent the twilight of the Nordic Gods; but then they were brought out of that loop and back into the regular universe, so they could continue fighting regular bad guys; and, now, almost 60 years after WWII, when they were first active, they're still active.

Some of your examples don't quite work. The JSA only has 4 original members left, and only one of those (Hawkman) actually died and was resurrected. Also, the team's goals and reasons for existence are very different now to what they were during WWII. Basically, their membership and purpose have changed, and the name is more of a legacy.

Most of the GLC members are new characters, not resurrected ones. Obviously, Hal has been resurrected, but most of the other members are new or returning members who never died.

Plus, I see no reason why the return of these great concepts diminishes the DCU in any way.

Kal-L was gone, but he never actually died. Technically, it isn't a resurrection.

You're right about the Anti-Monitor. Jason Todd and Donna Troy are another couple of good examples.

If they can just come back, there's no feelings towards anyone passing away or even facing a tragedy, because that can just be undone. And that takes away a lot of value in fiction, because you're supposed to care about the characters, but, if their problems are just temporary, there's no point caring about their problems.

Am I making too much out of nothing?

Possibly. Death is a joke in mainstream superhero comics. Marvel is as guilty of this as DC is, so I wouldn't lay the blame purely on DC's doorstep (hell, even Bucky came back to life). Best thing to do is just accept it and appreciate the stories for what they are.

[ZNOP]

[QUOTE=Green Lantern wannabe;5874076] Some of your examples don't quite work. The JSA only has 4 original members
Possibly. Death is a joke in mainstream superhero comics. Marvel is as guilty of this as DC is, so I wouldn't lay the blame purely on DC's doorstep (hell, even Bucky came back to life). Best thing to do is just accept it and appreciate the stories for what they are.

Or, don't buy anymore.

[David Atkins]

Wasnt Kilowag dead? I though hal killed him when he became paralax?

Hal fried Kilowog moments before becoming Parallax. Kilowog was then temporarily revived as a 'Dark Lantern' in order to seek vengeance against Jordan. (That's as much as I knew, prior to a little research that says that he was later fully revived by Kyle and Ganthet)

[Green Lantern wannabe]

1. Final Crisis is the third part of a three part act. So complaining that it's getting boring right in the middle is like complaining about a middle issue of an arc that's not finished. You gotta appreciate the way it's all coming together.

2. We don't know for sure that this is the same Anti-Monitor. With the new multiverse being different than the old, it makes sense that this would be a new AM. IIRC this Green Lantern Corps isn't the old one brought back to life but a new generation spawned when Kyle gave up his Ion powers to reignite the central battery. The only lanterns that were brought back from the "dead" were the missing ones who turned out to not be dead at all.

3. Comics run in serial form, hence they are constantly getting reset to the status quo. Just look at the history of the DCU. For a while you will have some radical new changes, but eventually they always go back to normal. Hal is Green Lantern again, Superman is alive, etc.

I'm not sure Final Crisis is the final part of a three-part act; it seems more like the latest crisis in an annual event of universal crises - I started a thread on that, actually. (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=156639)

The point is that, if they're always going back to normal, then there's no feelings involved, because you know they'll ALWAYS be back to normal.

[Buried Alien]

The point is that, if they're always going back to normal, then there's no feelings involved, because you know they'll ALWAYS be back to normal.

Barry Allen is *still* dead. :(

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[king mob]

Look up Kingdom Come on Wikipedia.org. it's an Elseworlds story by Mark Waid & Alex Ross, which became Earth-22 after 52 the series which created 51 Earths based-off New Earth when Mister Mind eat parts of the timestream to alter events to make the Earth's what they are now. Pretty much I believe Final Crisis will eliminate all but 10 earths at most, I'm think more of 5, a New Earth and an Antimatter New Earth, Wildstorm and two other Earths (I would go with the Vertigo Earth and an Earth 1 which would be a Silver Age Earth).

And there lies the reason why the whole thing is a big mess.