Has Civil War been tainted? (ILLUMINATI #5 Spoilers)

[mindcrime]

in illuminati #5, iron man has called the illuminati together one last time. there is a skrull problem, & the marvel heroes have to know. doctor strange & iron man are talking, & iron man asks doctor strange how his avengers are doing. strange says fine, but please dont go into his speech. the speech being to register. iron man's response? " i dont care about any of that anymore". WTF????? its not " i dont have time for that right now", no, its "he doesnt care". maybe im jumping the gun, if thats the case, then the writers need to work a little bit harder at HOW someone says something. the marvel universe has been through hell because of civil war, and for tony to just " not care" anymore is wrong. what are your opinions? do you think its a mistake on the writers part? do you think marvel is just saying its not a big deal anymore? they said secret invasion would not invalidate civil war. if this is tony's opinion now, then it has. what do you think?

[Bryson the Red]

I think it was implied he ment "I care more about this right now!".

[matthewaos]

Yeah, me too.

[JesseJay]

I've said since day one that all it would take is one earth-shaking crisis to make the SHRA a moot point. I think the annilation What if did it best. put the entire planet in danger of being wiped out, and see if any governemnt officals are whining about who's registered. "i'm sorry thor, you can't save earth, we don't know your secret identity." The marvel U.'s poplation have been portraied as extremly ungratful.

[Sijo]

I'm more puzzled by the way the two Avengers teams worked together during the symbiote invasion of NYC. Not the part where they help each other, but rather how they worked together for the mop-up afterwards instead of one group trying to arrest the other. I guess that plotline is wearing thin already. Besides, World War Hulk (or should I say Just New York War Hulk) already showed how helpless the Initiative is. If The Hulk and a bunch of aliens is too much for them I'd shudder to think of what would happen when a REAL menace shows up.

[rZi]

I think it was implied he ment "I care more about this right now!".

Correct. He simply ment that registration wasn't on the top of his priority list because he had just found the corpse of an alien

[Alpow]

Stark wasn't written consistently on the issue form the start.

Sometimes he said that Registration was a good thing because people should be accountable, will of the majority etc (in which case he is a hypocrite since he doesn't hold himself to the same standards) and other times he mainly backed it as a pragmatic measure, i.e. this is a bad idea but it better than the alternative (in which case it looks bad that he was willing to go too such lengths after the end of civil war).

Under the former mindset then Stark's actions of late do come off as somewhat dubious but in the latter case it makes perfect sense that he would stop enforcing registration since he doesn't believe in it and it is presumably functioning well enough to prevent that which it was meant to prevent and even if it isn't the Skrulls present a far graver threat.

[The Confessor]

I think it was implied he ment "I care more about this right now!".

Yeah, I think your probably right but mindcrime has a valid point, that's not how it sounded 'on page' so to speak. It really shocked me too when Tony said that, I had exactly that same 'WTF!!' reaction. It's an uncharacteristic slip up from Bendis...he's usually a master of dialogue.

[thronzeblast]

in illuminati #5, iron man has called the illuminati together one last time. there is a skrull problem, & the marvel heroes have to know. doctor strange & iron man are talking, & iron man asks doctor strange how his avengers are doing. strange says fine, but please dont go into his speech. the speech being to register. iron man's response? " i dont care about any of that anymore". WTF????? its not " i dont have time for that right now", no, its "he doesnt care". maybe im jumping the gun, if thats the case, then the writers need to work a little bit harder at HOW someone says something. the marvel universe has been through hell because of civil war, and for tony to just " not care" anymore is wrong. what are your opinions? do you think its a mistake on the writers part? do you think marvel is just saying its not a big deal anymore? they said secret invasion would not invalidate civil war. if this is tony's opinion now, then it has. what do you think?



Well when the hulk attacked he did offer the unregistered hero's a full pardon when it was over if they turned themselves in.The threat the earth faced warranted him making an exception as he needed there help and support.Now I do believe the wording was a little too stronge I mean "I dont care about any of that anymore".He still cares but its not on the top of his list first there is a good chance that the illumanuti are the reason the skrulls have been able to invade and go undetected.Second even though the reason's for civil war were valid who knows if strings were being pulled and from when and how long.Third if Spiderman, Wolverine, Strange could not detect electra was a skrull and then Xavier over in issue #5 thier in serious trouble.Hell the president could be a skrull even one of the Mighty Avengers anybody really so this take's priority over everything.

[captain_unimpressive]

Maybe's he trying to ease up on being to harsh during Civil War. I wouldn't be so surprised if he decided to compensate for being the angry metal face on propaganda posters that he's been lately by being a really nice guy. He knows that he arrested your pals and put them in an alternate-dimension prison, but he's totally past that now, he says. Also, he got you a candygram, just "for being you". So you're conflicted.


It's an uncharacteristic slip up from Bendis...he's usually a master of dialogue.

If a baker makes cookies that are off-tasting and somewhat soggy, but they're big and he makes a whole lot of them, does that make him a master of cookies?

Or maybe if he makes a cookie that is in a sort of strip, then another, then another, because if you buy a baker's dozen they make one big cookie, does that make the cookie better?

(I could keep doing this all day)

[matthewaos]

I just hope that they will not just continue this way. I mean "OMG, a worldwide threat!!! I give pardon to everyone!!!" all the time is a little stupid. I would like to see what happens after CW and there was no follow up anywhere I think.

[XPac]

in illuminati #5, iron man has called the illuminati together one last time. there is a skrull problem, & the marvel heroes have to know. doctor strange & iron man are talking, & iron man asks doctor strange how his avengers are doing. strange says fine, but please dont go into his speech. the speech being to register. iron man's response? " i dont care about any of that anymore". WTF????? its not " i dont have time for that right now", no, its "he doesnt care". maybe im jumping the gun, if thats the case, then the writers need to work a little bit harder at HOW someone says something. the marvel universe has been through hell because of civil war, and for tony to just " not care" anymore is wrong. what are your opinions? do you think its a mistake on the writers part? do you think marvel is just saying its not a big deal anymore? they said secret invasion would not invalidate civil war. if this is tony's opinion now, then it has. what do you think?

I don't think it's a mistake. It's Stark just being sensible.

We have to first remember that Stark was actually against the notion of registration. He's going along with it not because he believes it's right, but because he thinks it's inevitable and they're better off controlling it than fighting it.

Secondly, he knows the New Avengers aren't any real threat. So locking them up really shouldn't be THAT important.

Lastly, he's trying to get Dr. Strange's cooperation. He's more likely to say things that will earn Strange's trust. Telling Strange he still wants to hunt him down likely won't achieve that goal.

[PamGrierOverdrive]

In Transformers #2 (or maybe it was #3 or #4), Spider-Man makes a guest appearance. Now if G.I. Joe has been seen to exist in the Transformers Universe, and Superman has been seen to exist in the Marvel Universe (Spider-Man vs Superman, ca. 1976), one could hypothesize that G.I. Joe also exists in the Masters Of The Universe universe (Exhibit A: DC Comics Presents #47).

[XPac]

In Transformers #2 (or maybe it was #3 or #4), Spider-Man makes a guest appearance. Now if G.I. Joe has been seen to exist in the Transformers Universe, and Superman has been seen to exist in the Marvel Universe (Spider-Man vs Superman, ca. 1976), one could hypothesize that G.I. Joe also exists in the Masters Of The Universe universe (Exhibit A: DC Comics Presents #47).

I'm not sure how DC handles cross overs (sometimes they count), but in marvel pretty much all of them occur in alternate realities. So none of that occurs in the 616 universe.

DC might be a different story. They sometimes do count cross overs.

[Magneto X]

Inherently, calling a meeting of unaccountable secret heroes -- the Illuminati -- goes against Tony's side of Civil War.

At the same time, given an invasion, it is a necessary call.

But Tony can't be a hypocrit so badly that he can fight both opposite positions at once ("the only illegal unaccountable secret heroes are the ones I say we need!")

[Alan2099]

Civil War tainited? That's kind of like saying somebody messed up a nice horrible train wreck. I mean, how exactly do you mess up something that was already a complete disaster?

[mindcrime]

Civil War tainited? That's kind of like saying somebody messed up a nice horrible train wreck. I mean, how exactly do you mess up something that was already a complete disaster?



ill tell you how. lets say that im right & that is how tony feels now. "whats done is done & its just not a big deal anymore". if thats how he feels, then what was the point? what did bill foster have to die for? or cap? so tony put himself through all this personal hell, lost cap, lost thor, half the heroes in the marvel u dislike him & dont trust him, he did all this for nothing. just so a year later, he can say "nevermind, lets all be pals again". civil war had to MEAN something. if it doesnt, then you might as well spit on caps grave, because his death meant nothing. " yeah, lets make tony stark the most contriversal person in the marvel universe, for the hell of it. its a disservice to cap, to tony & to all of us. so i just spent a year of my life defending tony stark, for the hell of it. people just spent a year attacking tony stark, because they had nothing better to do. if this how it turns out to be, then marvel just cheated every single fan. if the fans who read civil war & enjoyed it & debated over it, would have known that the heroes were just gonna make it go away & get along in the end, well i cant speak for everyone else, but i wouldnt have wasted my time.

[XPac]

ill tell you how. lets say that im right & that is how tony feels now. "whats done is done & its just not a big deal anymore". if thats how he feels, then what was the point? what did bill foster have to die for? or cap? so tony put himself through all this personal hell, lost cap, lost thor, half the heroes in the marvel u dislike him & dont trust him, he did all this for nothing. just so a year later, he can say "nevermind, lets all be pals again". civil war had to MEAN somthing. if it doesnt, then you might as well spit on caps grave, because his death meant nothing. " yeah, lets make tony stark the contriversal person in the marvel universe, for the hell of it. its a disservice to cap, to tony & to all of us. so i just spent a year of my life defending tony stark, for the hell of it. people just spent a year attacking tony stark, because they had nothing better to do. if this how it turns out to be, then marvel just cheated every single fan. if the fans who read civil war & enjoyed it & debated over it, would have known that the heroes were just gonna make it go away & get along in the end, well i cant speak for everyone else, but i wouldnt have wasted my time.

From Tony's perspective, I think the point was to get him in a positon of power where he could have some level of control over things. Now that he's achieved that, I doubt he cares about the rest.

Again, he was initially against the idea of the registration. And I don't think he believes putting the New Avengers behind bars would truelly serve the greater good.

The registration hasn't gone away... it's not swept under the rug. It's just that Tony now is going to focus on other matters (as he should). The government will still be after the registered heroes even if Tony is not. Remember, the TBolts aren't directly under Starks command anymore. And the Initiaitve is still this big corrupt monstrosity again not under Starks control. So Stark deciding that he's not going to waste his time on this anymore really doesn't change everything... it's just one less thing for the unregistered heroes to have to worry about (assuming of course Stark was being honest and not just trying to con Strange).

[Alan2099]

ill tell you how. lets say that im right & that is how tony feels now. "whats done is done & its just not a big deal anymore". if thats how he feels, then what was the point? what did bill foster have to die for? or cap? so tony put himself through all this personal hell, lost cap, lost thor, half the heroes in the marvel u dislike him & dont trust him, he did all this for nothing. just so a year later, he can say "nevermind, lets all be pals again". civil war had to MEAN something. if it doesnt, then you might as well spit on caps grave, because his death meant nothing. " yeah, lets make tony stark the most contriversal person in the marvel universe, for the hell of it. its a disservice to cap, to tony & to all of us. so i just spent a year of my life defending tony stark, for the hell of it. people just spent a year attacking tony stark, because they had nothing better to do. if this how it turns out to be, then marvel just cheated every single fan. if the fans who read civil war & enjoyed it & debated over it, would have known that the heroes were just gonna make it go away & get along in the end, well i cant speak for everyone else, but i wouldnt have wasted my time.
Let's look at the flipside of that.

For decades heroes have ben doing their own thing. They've grown to be allies, friends, accepted by the public, and they always struiggled to do the right thing, no matter how hard it was.

Then suddenly, bang. None of that matters anymore, because some Z-grade villain killed some kinds. Perfect reason for everybody to forget who the heroes were and for the heroes to forget where their morals where and who their friends were.

If something that stupid is going to change everything, why should anybody have wasted their time on the heroes to begin with? Obviously, as Tony Stark has proven, being a good guy means stabbing your friends in the back the first time things get rough and saving the day means sitting back and doing what the Government tells you to do.

Heroism in the Marvel Universe these days means nothing more than "did you sign this little piece of paper?"

[Mark_S]

It is both an indication that Tony operates on a one-problem-at-a-time principle of life. In cw he fixed the problem, the heroes are mostly registered and those who aren't are beneath his notice when a new problem shows up. Tony won civil war, and as he told She-Hulk once when he is in a struggle winning is all that matters to him.

Also marvel may have gotten tired of having the anger from cw turn fan against fan and all of the boards on the net into a very nasty war zone. They might figure that it's time to turn the anger off by showing a really big crossover where the heroes aren't actually fighting each other. In many ways it is the Ghidorah principle. Godzilla and Rodan could fight all they wanted and lay waste to Tokyo in the process, but when Ghidorah showed up they teamed up with Mothra, beat him and became heroes. When you want to make a bad guy look good you introduce a bigger bad guy. Tony was the bad guy to many in cw, so introduce some skrulls and Tony might not seem so bad anymore.

For myself it might not work because I don't see a lot of difference between cw/frontline Tony and the skrulls.

Mark_S

[mindcrime]

From Tony's perspective, I think the point was to get him in a positon of power where he could have some level of control over things. Now that he's achieved that, I doubt he cares about the rest.

Again, he was initially against the idea of the registration. And I don't think he believes putting the New Avengers behind bars would truelly serve the greater good.

The registration hasn't gone away... it's not swept under the rug. It's just that Tony now is going to focus on other matters (as he should). The government will still be after the registered heroes even if Tony is not. Remember, the TBolts aren't directly under Starks command anymore. And the Initiaitve is still this big corrupt monstrosity again not under Starks control. So Stark deciding that he's not going to waste his time on this anymore really doesn't change everything... it's just one less thing for the unregistered heroes to have to worry about (assuming of course Stark was being honest and not just trying to con Strange).





i see your point. but on the other hand, tony has been telling every one about the 50 state initiaitive. HIS 50 state initiaitive. HIS plan. in "one more day" pt 1, he tells peter he cant help him because it would undermind HIS plan. what he is trying to accomplish. in nova #3, he tells the t-bolts to back off, go home, & he would deal with norman. i dont know. if i were tony, i would watch it, because if all this doesnt work out, the goverment has him to use for a fall guy. he needs to be keeping an eye on the initiaitive, because it was his idea. i know the skrull invasion is a big deal. but civil war has to mean something to tony. he lost too much for it not to. he is the face of registration after all.

[XPac]

i see your point. but on the other hand, tony has been telling every one about the 50 state initiaitive. HIS 50 state initiaitive. HIS plan. in "one more day" pt 1, he tells peter he cant help him because it would undermind HIS plan. what he is trying to accomplish. in nova #3, he tells the t-bolts to back off, go home, & he would deal with norman. i dont know. if i were tony, i would watch it, because if all this doesnt work out, the goverment has him to use for a fall guy. he needs to be keeping an eye on the initiaitive, because it was his idea. i know the skrull invasion is a big deal. but civil war has to mean something to tony. he lost too much for it not to. he is the face of registration after all.

Though it's true that a lot of what we see is Tony's plan, I think a lot of the stuff he's said was also just PR.

He said MANY times the law is the law... all the while he was breaking whatever law he dam well pleased behind everyone's back. So just because Stark says something doesn't mean he necessarily means it. And of course, that also applies to him telling Strange that he doesn't care about that anymore... it's possible he's just telling Strange what he wants to hear to get his cooperation in the here and now.

Also, a lot of things that were HIS plan ended up falling under the control of others. The TBolts are a perfect example of that. Clearly there are things going on in camp Hammond that Stark isn't aware of. A lot of things have predictably spun out of Starks control. But because a lot of it was HIS idea, and because he became the public face of the SHRA, and because he took responsibility and power that came with all of this, he WILL be the fall guy if anything goes wrong. He sought power and control, but that comes with a price even if he's seeking it for what he believes are selfless reasons.

[mindcrime]

i dont know guys. iron man has always been my favorite hero. for 35 years, he has been my hero. but the more i dig, & the more i find ( frontline #6), im really starting to resent marvel & what they have done to my hero..:mad:

[XPac]

i dont know guys. iron man has always been my favorite hero. for 35 years, he has been my hero. but the more i dig, & the more i find ( frontline #6), im really starting to resent marvel & what they have done to my hero..:mad:

I guess if you're an Iron Man fan, you'll just have to take the good with the bad.

There's no getting around the fact that he's a character readers will often attack. And he at times does come off like a complete douche bag.

But the upside is that he's got more books and exposure than he's ever gotten before. On a given week he can appear in more books than even Wolverine or Spiderman. And that's not even counting his movie.

So on one hand I do feel bad for the Iron Man fans. But on another I'm actually kind of envious... there are characters I really like who don't get a fraction of the exposure Iron Man is getting.

[mcgaffer]

I think that Tony has started to realise what the price of Civil War really is and he's more than willing to ignore heros that don't register. He does'nt want to throw any more friends in 42 and he most definately does'nt want another Cap incident. Tony only did what he thought was right, he knew it had a price and now i feel that his character does'nt like that anymore. He looks like he's subtly trying to make the SHRA irrelevant. Also he still has some presidential pardons left. He got 12 he's used about 4 to my knowledge, Invisible Woman, Human Torch, Falcon and Spider-Woman. Im unsure whether Thing got pardoned or whether he did'nt need to be (also has he got his money back). So Tony has got about 8 pardons left, Wolvie does'nt need one because as a mutant he's automatically registered, Tony seems to be waiting for the New Avengers to just come and collect their pardons.

[mindcrime]

I guess if you're an Iron Man fan, you'll just have to take the good with the bad.

There's no getting around the fact that he's a character readers will often attack. And he at times does come off like a complete douche bag.

But the upside is that he's got more books and exposure than he's ever gotten before. On a given week he can appear in more books than even Wolverine or Spiderman. And that's not even counting his movie.

So on one hand I do feel bad for the Iron Man fans. But on another I'm actually kind of envious... there are characters I really like who don't get a fraction of the exposure Iron Man is getting.





true, the exposure is nice. he has never been more popular. but at what cost? im used to iron man not being that popular, & him being a hero. & im just 1 fan, but i would rather have him that way.

[Rock It Raccoon]

true, the exposure is nice. he has never been more popular. but at what cost? im used to iron man not being that popular, & him being a hero. & im just 1 fan, but i would rather have him that way.

yeah, i see where you're coming from, and last year made it especially hard to say you like iron man.

but on the flipside, all this negative press IM's been getting, plus his presence in SO DAMN MANY books seems to indicate that he's slated for a big martyrdom. his whole "responsibility" schtick can only lead to him creating an unfathomable mess and solving it, but that will probably happen by him removing himself from his priviledged position in a grand act of heroism, probably in time for the 2008 movie.

so yes, iron man's been a weak link in the MU chain for some time, but that's only going to come back around to him, eventually setting him up for something new and exciting.

[mindcrime]

yeah, i see where you're coming from, and last year made it especially hard to say you like iron man.

but on the flipside, all this negative press IM's been getting, plus his presence in SO DAMN MANY books seems to indicate that he's slated for a big martyrdom. his whole "responsibility" schtick can only lead to him creating an unfathomable mess and solving it, but that will probably happen by him removing himself from his priviledged position in a grand act of heroism, probably in time for the 2008 movie.

so yes, iron man's been a weak link in the MU chain for some time, but that's only going to come back around to him, eventually setting him up for something new and exciting.




that would be nice.

[RangerNec]

When Bendis said that secret invasion would not invalidate Civil War he meant that they won't retcon all the events of civil war to be a skrull plot. This does not mean that the secret invasion will or will not change the marvel U back to pre-civil war status quo, or even something else entirely.

[PamGrierOverdrive]

I think I'm almost clear on this, but let me pose one last question: If Archie met The Punisher, and Archie met the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, and The Punisher met the X-Men, who also met Star Trek, and if the Savage Dragon met the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, and Spawn met the Savage Dragon, then how can we reconcile David Hine's recreated Earth storyline in Spawn with the future that is seen within the Star Trek mythos? Is Spock destined to become a Hellspawn of Vulcan?

[bulbasteve]

Just because it is what Tony might think doesn't mean it is what the pro-regs in general think. Heck Reed and Pym were arguing a few issues ago in FF about BP. You shouldn't assume that Tony is the monolithic voice of the pro-regs. Much less real radicals Gyrich who knows Slott will be trying to depower people for years to come.

[mindcrime]

I think I'm almost clear on this, but let me pose one last question: If Archie met The Punisher, and Archie met the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, and The Punisher met the X-Men, who also met Star Trek, and if the Savage Dragon met the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, and Spawn met the Savage Dragon, then how can we reconcile David Hine's recreated Earth storyline in Spawn with the future that is seen within the Star Trek mythos? Is Spock destined to become a Hellspawn of Vulcan?



oh my god....my head hurts now.

[Alan2099]

I think I'm almost clear on this, but let me pose one last question: If Archie met The Punisher, and Archie met the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, and The Punisher met the X-Men, who also met Star Trek, and if the Savage Dragon met the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, and Spawn met the Savage Dragon, then how can we reconcile David Hine's recreated Earth storyline in Spawn with the future that is seen within the Star Trek mythos? Is Spock destined to become a Hellspawn of Vulcan?

Yes, but that's okay because Vulcan later gets their very own Green Lantern as well.

I'm not making that up. There used to be a Green Lantern called Vulcan. He had pointy ears and once gave that Vulcan live long and prosper hand gesture.

[foxley]

yeah, i see where you're coming from, and last year made it especially hard to say you like iron man.

but on the flipside, all this negative press IM's been getting, plus his presence in SO DAMN MANY books seems to indicate that he's slated for a big martyrdom. his whole "responsibility" schtick can only lead to him creating an unfathomable mess and solving it, but that will probably happen by him removing himself from his priviledged position in a grand act of heroism, probably in time for the 2008 movie.

so yes, iron man's been a weak link in the MU chain for some time, but that's only going to come back around to him, eventually setting him up for something new and exciting.

Well, based on Tony Stark's past ways of dealing with problems with the Iron Man identity, he will continue wearing the armour but announce that there is a new person wearing the Iron Man armour who had no connection at all with the SHRA. And maybe fake his death.

[Red Orion]

Yes, but that's okay because Vulcan later gets their very own Green Lantern as well.

I'm not making that up. There used to be a Green Lantern called Vulcan. He had pointy ears and once gave that Vulcan live long and prosper hand gesture.

He wasn't called Vulcan he was called the Green Lantern OF Vulcan.

[Alan2099]

My mistake then, but I know I've seen him referred to as Vulcan in at least one issue.