How Many Mutants Were There In the Old Days?

[ToxicTeen]

I was wondering about this while I was reading my trades of X-Men: Dark Phoenix Saga and X-Men: Days Future Past. I read that the reason for Decimation/M-Day was that Mr. Editor Dude Joe thought that the mutant population got way out of hand for the X-Men books during 2000-Present, like over 20 million or so. I'm not sure, I usually don't keep track...

However what was the number of mutants for the X-Men books during the 60s-80s and maybe the early 90s?

[Novaya Havoc]

I was wondering about this while I was reading my trades of X-Men: Dark Phoenix Saga and X-Men: Days Future Past. I read that the reason for Decimation/M-Day was that Mr. Editor Dude Joe thought that the mutant population got way out of hand for the X-Men books during 2000-Present, like over 20 billion or so. I'm not sure, I usually don't keep track...

However what was the number of mutants for the X-Men books during the 60s-80s and maybe the early 90s?

They were way limited. The X-Men, a handful of villains, and like, Jamie Madrox and Dazzler.

There pretty much were no "neutral" mutants. Simply retired villains and the few ex (read: Havok, Polaris, Sunfire) X-Men.

[Omega Alpha]

The number of mutants pre-Decimation was around 16 million, 0,25% of the world's population (and that not even considering that Earth in the MU has much more countries, people living below the surface of oceans, etc, so the population there is likely to be even higher). So, Joe Q saying the number of mutants being too big is absolute bull. But I won't enter in that discussion again.

Anyway, from the 60's to 80's, mutants were basically the X-men (former and active), New Mutants, a few other mutant heroes of the MU, such as Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, etc and villains. The concept of an entire mutant community, while already existed, wasn't really explored before Morrison.

[worstblogever]

The number of mutants pre-Decimation was around 16 million, 0,25% of the world's population (and that not even considering that Earth in the MU has much more countries, people living below the surface of oceans, etc, so the population there is likely to be even higher). So, Joe Q saying the number of mutants being too big is absolute bull. But I won't enter in that discussion again.

Anyway, from the 60's to 80's, mutants were basically the X-men (former and active), New Mutants, a few other mutant heroes of the MU, such as Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, etc and villains. The concept of an entire mutant community, while already existed, wasn't really explored before Morrison.

.25 % is still a lot though. That would mean that a high school with 400 students would have one mutant in it. One with 1200, like the one in my small home town, would have three, by the percentages. A suburb town with a population of 3,000 would have seven or eight mutants in town. That''s a whole X-Team, right there.

It was a little high, but not way too high. But with the slaughter of like millions of mutants in Genosha by Cassandra Nova... that would reduce it significantly. .025% would've been more realistic. Enough for a mutant ruling class in Genosha, anyway, and spreading the rest through the globe. The 198, or few hundred total? That's just hampering the ability to write stories. Then again, New X-Men #44 had a throwaway mutant death, so maybe not. With the new mutant birth... who's to say there won't be like a thousand kids hit puberty next year and become mutants in the X-books?

Editorial gets a bit lax... and we're right back at .25%.

[Metallurgique]

In the very early days, there seem to have been very, very few of them. But by the time of the Roy Thomas/Neal Adams run there seem to be more of them, or at least more "latent" mutants. By the time of the All-new, All-different team they seem to have increased in number again. And then by the time you get to Dark Pheonix there are even more of them. And then they reach sort of a plateau around the time of Dazzler: The Movie.

By that time mutants, while not commonplace, are certainly not unknown to the general population. Dazzler's experience was used to form the basis of the anti-mutant hysteria that Claremont and Simonson used to generate stories from roughly 1983 to the Fall of the Mutants in 1987. There are a number of mutants who come across the path of the X-men and X-factor in this period that are generally not part of the continuing storyline, the most similar of which, to Morrison's construct, is probably Larry Bodine from New Mutants #45 - a stand alone issue about how an individual mutant might feel having to be "closeted" and/or "Hunted" by the then-undercover X-factor.

I think that Mutants increase again in population during the Lobdell era, but not dramatically, and then again under Seagle/Kelly, which segues into the Morrison/Casey era where Mutants are not only commonplace but actually have their own culture, their own country, etc. - a far cry from the state of things during Dark Pheonix, that's for sure.

[matthewaos]

The number of mutants pre-Decimation was around 16 million, 0,25% of the world's population (and that not even considering that Earth in the MU has much more countries, people living below the surface of oceans, etc, so the population there is likely to be even higher). So, Joe Q saying the number of mutants being too big is absolute bull. But I won't enter in that discussion again.

Anyway, from the 60's to 80's, mutants were basically the X-men (former and active), New Mutants, a few other mutant heroes of the MU, such as Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, etc and villains. The concept of an entire mutant community, while already existed, wasn't really explored before Morrison.

I think that JQ's "complain" was more because the first excuse for a new character was that he was a mutant, and that's not a lie.

[Sentinel K]

I was wondering about this while I was reading my trades of X-Men: Dark Phoenix Saga and X-Men: Days Future Past. I read that the reason for Decimation/M-Day was that Mr. Editor Dude Joe thought that the mutant population got way out of hand for the X-Men books during 2000-Present, like over 20 billion or so. I'm not sure, I usually don't keep track...

However what was the number of mutants for the X-Men books during the 60s-80s and maybe the early 90s?

You do know the population of the Earth is only about 6 Billion right?

[Pro]

I think that JQ's "complain" was more because the first excuse for a new character was that he was a mutant, and that's not a lie.

Still nonsense, most of the non-x related books didn't feature mutants by the bucketloads. And personally i prefer the simple origin of mutancy over someone being bitten by a radioactive spider/blasted by gamma rays or being bombarded by cosmic rays.

Seriously 16 million is not much. Certainly not enough to warrant the complaint that there were so many mutants they needed to be included in every background shot even in non-x related books. The population of the netherlands is 16 million. How many people from the netherlands have you met personally (that's a question for americans more than anyone in europe)?

But 16 million gave the mutant race a bite it sorely lacks these days. They were a genuine threat to the stability of human civilisation. That potential threat is all but gone now and it shows. Mutants are now a handfull of freaks who happen to have a gene sequence in common, they're not a race, they're not a threat, they won't inherit the world ever and there won't be surprising new mutant characters ever. It's boring.

[ToxicTeen]

You do know the population of the Earth is only about 6 Billion right?

I meant to say 20 million not 20 billion. I get those two words mixed up...:o Like I said, I usually don't keep track of those high numbers...

And it's weird that back in the 60s-80s, the only mutants so far in the world were just the X-Men and the evil mutants. Probably that changed once 2000 came around, still in the early 90s books, it didn't look there were still not that many mutants around.

[jarrod]

I dunno, it always seemed that there were more than just the X-Men and their adversaries... backgrounders or neutral mutants weren't as prominent as they were under Morrison sure, but they still popped up from time to time (the Morlocks, Madrox, Alchemy, Colin McKay, Lili Cheney & Guido, etc, etc).

[Omega Alpha]

.25 % is still a lot though. That would mean that a high school with 400 students would have one mutant in it. One with 1200, like the one in my small home town, would have three, by the percentages. A suburb town with a population of 3,000 would have seven or eight mutants in town. That''s a whole X-Team, right there.

So what? If you take this same suburban town, high school, etc and look how many gays, for example, are there the number would be significant higher, and no one says they aren't a minority. Plus, no one knows for sure if that number includes latent mutants too.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

In the old days? Well they were horrible times. Every mutant had to use their powers by candle light, and work 20 hour days, down the pit. Poverty was rife and food was scarce. Ant their parents used to beat the,

Hard it was, in the old days... :rolleyes:

[Schuimend Mormel]

The population numbers of the Morlocks are interesting. They were a large crowd before the Massacre, and seemed to bounce back later in terms of numbers. Also, didn't the Morlocks abduct children from baseline humans simply for the purpose of swelling their ranks? After which Masque deformed them so they thought they were mutants or something?

[Matthew K.]

The population numbers of the Morlocks are interesting. They were a large crowd before the Massacre, and seemed to bounce back later in terms of numbers. Also, didn't the Morlocks abduct children from baseline humans simply for the purpose of swelling their ranks? After which Masque deformed them so they thought they were mutants or something?

I hate Masque! He's such a twisted ugly bastard...but that story has some depth there.

[Schuimend Mormel]

I hate Masque! He's such a twisted ugly bastard...but that story has some depth there.

Heh, well... I'm not sure if it was ever confirmed on panel that Masque actually did that, but... in Storm's first speech to the Morlocks she says 'You will no longer abduct the humans' children to swell your ranks,' and Masque and Annalee HAVE tried to make Morlocks out of the non-mutant Power Pack.

[Matthew K.]

Heh, well... I'm not sure if it was ever confirmed on panel that Masque actually did that, but... in Storm's first speech to the Morlocks she says 'You will no longer abduct the humans' children to swell your ranks,' and Masque and Annalee HAVE tried to make Morlocks out of the non-mutant Power Pack.

I wouldn't put it past him (& his horde)...they're pretty scrumbag...or sad/pathetic/crazy.

[jmc247]

Seriously 16 million is not much. Certainly not enough to warrant the complaint that there were so many mutants they needed to be included in every background shot even in non-x related books. The population of the netherlands is 16 million. How many people from the netherlands have you met personally (that's a question for americans more than anyone in europe)?

But 16 million gave the mutant race a bite it sorely lacks these days. They were a genuine threat to the stability of human civilisation. That potential threat is all but gone now and it shows. Mutants are now a handfull of freaks who happen to have a gene sequence in common, they're not a race, they're not a threat, they won't inherit the world ever and there won't be surprising new mutant characters ever. It's boring.

I certainly agree. It effects Magneto's fight as much or more then the X-Men because I can't see him trying to collect all the mutant babies and put them in a giant incubator in space or create an island nursery for mutant babies.

The only fight I could see Magneto undertaking is trying to undo M-Day, and editoral mandate won't let him succeed. Otherwise, I could see him hanging out with Xavier and playing the role he played on the Animated Series most of the time.

[Matthew K.]

The only fight I could see Magneto undertaking is trying to undo M-Day, and editoral mandate won't let him succeed. Otherwise, I could see him hanging out with Xavier and playing the role he played on the Animated Series most of the time.

That was a good role...most of the time. I liked when he took over after Xavier fell.

[worstblogever]

So what? If you take this same suburban town, high school, etc and look how many gays, for example, are there the number would be significant higher, and no one says they aren't a minority. Plus, no one knows for sure if that number includes latent mutants too.

It just seemed less plausible that mutants weren't dominating the world. Genosha had what... about 6.5 million? Now, mind you, some of them had flat out useless mutations. But there had to be enough there that they could be ready to conquer most things in their way. Especially when led by a lynchpin like Magneto.

Meanwhile, the suburban U.S would have like 500,000 mutants in it. It really starts to make the whole X-Men team seem like they're doing a crappy job of teaching the next generation what they know, since they have, at most, a few hundred kids at Academy X. 500 would be a kind estimation. So, the .25% minority withing the U.S. alone only has .1% of that receiving aid from the X-Men, the supposed defenders of their race?

What's wrong with that, is the population got bigger than the X-Men could ever hope to police, or ensure that they are the lynchpin of.

[DDM]

The population numbers of the Morlocks are interesting. They were a large crowd before the Massacre, and seemed to bounce back later in terms of numbers. Also, didn't the Morlocks abduct children from baseline humans simply for the purpose of swelling their ranks? After which Masque deformed them so they thought they were mutants or something?

No. Callisto used Caliban, who has the mutant power to detect other mutants, to forcefully abduct young mutant children to swell their ranks. Most of the adult Morlocks willingly submitted themselves to Masque's transformations as a symbol that they are outsiders. Skids refused Masque though.

[DDM]

I wouldn't put it past him (& his horde)...they're pretty scrumbag...or sad/pathetic/crazy.

Callisto kept Masque under control. It was after the Mutant Massacre Masque's own inner demons caused him to go insane since Callisto became Moira MacTaggert's unofficial bodyguard on Muir Island.

[Schuimend Mormel]

No. Callisto used Caliban, who has the mutant power to detect other mutants, to forcefully abduct young mutant children to swell their ranks. Most of the adult Morlocks willingly submitted themselves to Masque's transformations as a symbol that they are outsiders. Skids refused Masque though.

Okay, thanks. They're a large group, though, and I suppose they only 'recruit' in New York (but correct me if I'm wrong). It's peculiar that they've managed to form a colony of hundreds, even if there were more mutants than the general public suspected (and more being born every year).

[Bricolo]

The only fight I could see Magneto undertaking is trying to undo M-Day, and editoral mandate won't let him succeed. Otherwise, I could see him hanging out with Xavier and playing the role he played on the Animated Series most of the time.

Magneto's goal is clear, destroy the editor and save the mutants. He must team with the Exiles and find a way into this world to save mutant kind.

[Pro]

What's wrong with that, is the population got bigger than the X-Men could ever hope to police, or ensure that they are the lynchpin of.

No, that's not what's wrong with that, that's exactly what was right about Morrisson's run. It was the inevitable turning point where mutants grew out from under the x-men's umbrella and were trying to find a place in a society that didn't welcome them but had little choice but to tolerate them lest a race war truly would break out. It was the culmination of over 30 years of stories leading up to this situation where human society was faced with the true consequences of a new race emerging from among them. Not a handfull of freaks hidden in the shadows, not a minor threat squashed every time they reared their heads but a true mutant race, with an emerging culture, fighting for the right to be part of humano-centric society. It was refreshing, it was bold and it was what all those 30+ years of storytelling had led up to.

And then Joe Quesada turned back the clock, crapped all over the x-franchise in favor of avengers and shoved his brand of storytelling down our collective throats.

[jmc247]

And then Joe Quesada turned back the clock, crapped all over the x-franchise in favor of avengers and shoved his brand of storytelling down our collective throats.

You hit the nail on the head.

[worstblogever]

No, that's not what's wrong with that, that's exactly what was right about Morrisson's run. It was the inevitable turning point where mutants grew out from under the x-men's umbrella and were trying to find a place in a society that didn't welcome them but had little choice but to tolerate them lest a race war truly would break out. It was the culmination of over 30 years of stories leading up to this situation where human society was faced with the true consequences of a new race emerging from among them. Not a handfull of freaks hidden in the shadows, not a minor threat squashed every time they reared their heads but a true mutant race, with an emerging culture, fighting for the right to be part of humano-centric society. It was refreshing, it was bold and it was what all those 30+ years of storytelling had led up to.

And then Joe Quesada turned back the clock, crapped all over the x-franchise in favor of avengers and shoved his brand of storytelling down our collective throats.

See, it was right that they achieved that point... but it meant the mutant race had large enough numbers that they weren't threatened in the same way. They had, despite being a minority, powerful enough to be the dominant species. And if the mutants are accepted by the humans, who have to recognize their importance, and the weight they can pull... well, where's the conflict anymore? House of M was meant to show you what that would look like, I guess. A taste of a mutant-centric world... and then yank the carpet out from under you, because it wouldn't ever be close to that again.

So, where did they go from there? It would either be an Earth X scenario, or a culling of mutants in a genocidal war. The further would mean the Avengers would become the secondary characters in the Marvel Universe.

Quesada didn't want either story, so he made Wanda into a Deux Ex Machina so that mutants were back to the levels of oppression that they had when X-Men debuted, and the Avengers still looked like the big kids on the block.

It sucks, in a way, but it creates so much more conflict for Marvel's mutants to deal with then be on the teetering edge of acceptance.

[Pro]

It sucks, in a way, but it creates so much more conflict for Marvel's mutants to deal with then be on the teetering edge of acceptance.

I politely disagree, i was far far more interested in seeing the conflicts arising from Morisson's ideas than anything marvel published since. If they'd wanted to cull the mutant numbers the way Morrison did it was ten times more shocking than the designated deux ex machina simply turning their powers off. It utterly bores me to see the same basic chewed out concept all over again, especially given the editorial reasoning behind it. It is cowardly storytelling, never wanting to go forward with your story. It is uncreative storytelling, forcing yourself within the constraints set over 30 years ago and it is downright rude of marvel to force that pathetic writing on its readers just to make a few extra bucks on the upcoming avenger themed movies.

[worstblogever]

I politely disagree, i was far far more interested in seeing the conflicts arising from Morisson's ideas than anything marvel published since. If they'd wanted to cull the mutant numbers the way Morrison did it was ten times more shocking than the designated deux ex machina simply turning their powers off. It utterly bores me to see the same basic chewed out concept all over again, especially given the editorial reasoning behind it. It is cowardly storytelling, never wanting to go forward with your story. It is uncreative storytelling, forcing yourself within the constraints set over 30 years ago and it is downright rude of marvel to force that pathetic writing on its readers just to make a few extra bucks on the upcoming avenger themed movies.

I politely agree with you, because I was interested in a lot of Morrisons, take, but I regret knowing that if Joe Q has to choose between two fandoms, he'll make the decision that lines his pockets more, and have to understand he's become a businessman first, and a storyteller second. And that's what the stockholders pay him to do. Making the number so low was supposed to reinvigorate the franchise by giving them a conflict, and urgency they hadn't known in a long time, if ever.

Good hashing all this out with you, though, Pro. I can't say enough that you're one of the best X-Forums people to actually have a civil debate with.

[Pro]

So, where did they go from there? It would either be an Earth X scenario, or a culling of mutants in a genocidal war. The further would mean the Avengers would become the secondary characters in the Marvel Universe.

Nah plenty of ways to go. It just takes a little more guts and creativity.
Mutant ghettoes would have contained most mutants within those communities, mutants seeking ways to co-exist with humans now that they can't hide their numbers anymore, the x-treme x-team building out its ranks to police mutantkind, x-corp settlements finding themselves in conflict with local authorities, a rise in anti mutant sentiments due to the rise in mutant numbers, mutants seeking to take over traditionally human roles and finding themselves dealing with human opposition to their efforts, mutant schools being raised that don't conform or even reject Xavier's ideals, mutants finding themselves having to deal with the SHRA and the Initiative, other countries kidnapping mutants to win the superhuman weapons race etc, etc.
So many storyconcepts that would be more refreshing than turning back the clock.

And 16 million mutants is not enough to take over the world by far, not when a large portion of mutants have powers that couldn't save the 16 million that died in Genosha. If 16 million mutants was enough to take over the world then 16 million mutants would have been enough to save them from a mega sentinel during the destruction of Genosha. And it wasn't, 16 million mutants were wiped out in minutes. Most mutants are not on the scale of Xavier or Magneto. Most mutants are on the scale of Beak.

[Pro]

I regret knowing that if Joe Q has to choose between two fandoms, he'll make the decision that lines his pockets more, and have to understand he's become a businessman first, and a storyteller second. And that's what the stockholders pay him to do.

And that's comicdom's biggest threat at the moment i believe. Movies make more money than comics and thus comics are in danger of becoming nothing more than promotion material and a proving ground for movie concepts, in the process endangering the validity of comics as a medium in itself.

Good hashing all this out with you, though, Pro. I can't say enough that you're one of the best X-Forums people to actually have a civil debate with.

Thank you, and likewise. :)

[Zombienorthstar]

They were way limited. The X-Men, a handful of villains, and like, Jamie Madrox and Dazzler.

There pretty much were no "neutral" mutants. Simply retired villains and the few ex (read: Havok, Polaris, Sunfire) X-Men.


I dunno isn't that just the mutants they were aware of. I mean there could have been loads more that just weren't visiting new york to attack things.

[xmanson]

Exactly, since all new mutants introduced after that were not teens, the re were plnety around back then, just they didn't really "exist".

[DDM]

Only the big name mutants in the various mutant titles such as Uncanny X-Men, X-Factor, The New Mutants, & various one-off limited series such as Magik, Wolverine, Fallen Angels, Firestar, & X-Terminators. A few mutants appeared in other books such as the mutant werewolf Lobo Brothers in Spectacular Spider-Man & the mysterious Typhoid Mary in Daredevil.

[MarvelGirlBoy]

Nah plenty of ways to go. It just takes a little more guts and creativity.
Mutant ghettoes would have contained most mutants within those communities, mutants seeking ways to co-exist with humans now that they can't hide their numbers anymore, the x-treme x-team building out its ranks to police mutantkind, x-corp settlements finding themselves in conflict with local authorities, a rise in anti mutant sentiments due to the rise in mutant numbers, mutants seeking to take over traditionally human roles and finding themselves dealing with human opposition to their efforts, mutant schools being raised that don't conform or even reject Xavier's ideals, mutants finding themselves having to deal with the SHRA and the Initiative, other countries kidnapping mutants to win the superhuman weapons race etc, etc.
So many storyconcepts that would be more refreshing than turning back the clock.

And 16 million mutants is not enough to take over the world by far, not when a large portion of mutants have powers that couldn't save the 16 million that died in Genosha. If 16 million mutants was enough to take over the world then 16 million mutants would have been enough to save them from a mega sentinel during the destruction of Genosha. And it wasn't, 16 million mutants were wiped out in minutes. Most mutants are not on the scale of Xavier or Magneto. Most mutants are on the scale of Beak.

I was unlucky enough to only catch the tail-end of Morrison's run, which was decent enough to start get me interested in X-Men properly, so I am a huge fan of what he did.

That said, I think that there were issues with the status quo that was left, for the comics - X-Men is both a social commentary in story form, that experiments with ideas of society and identity, and a superhero comic. The dynamics of the various X-Corporations and mutant population at large, stories like District X, that explored the mutant ghettos - they weren't superhero books. X-Men has worked in its ability to shift between the two strands of its makeup - if the X-Men became, completely, the X-Corps - or, worse, if the X-Men became simply a go-between of the various X-Corp groups - we would still be left with a minority group within the Mu but we wouldn't be left with a minority comic. X-Men has to function within the MU, and if suddenly mutants become much more the norm, the X-Men simply become the Avengers, as I see it. Plus, if mutants were so numerous, then they would infringe on the other titles on the Marvel Universe - it would move the entire MU away from a recognisable Earth to a science fiction universe. It could be written very well, but we are still left with the problems that a) it doesn't connect as easily with new, and some old, readers, b) the X-Men are no longer unique, they perhaps even become somewhat redundant, Buffy-of-the-Slayers style, c) we lose interest in the characters because they are replaceable, and d) everyone who doesn't read X-Men would have to deal with the themes in that title.

I severely dislike the way that M-Day and the Decimation were handled, but I don't think that the concept was a bad one, in fact I think in some ways it was necessary for the comics' survival. I'll admit that I'm not even finding Messiah Complex as satisfying as I hoped, but again, for a character-based storyline, and for business, its a good concept - a sense of urgency, of team-work, of mutant solidarity and separatism, a focus on the relationships of the characters - those are some core X-themes, and mutant solidarity would simply be a unrealisable political idea rather than a dramatic technique. Good writers might have been able to continue what Morrison started, but that's irrelevant if what they are writing well isn't the X-Men.

Obviously something needs to be done to correct the fact that new mutants are impossible, but as part of a process, I think Decimation and Messiah Complex are clever and needed.

(I apologise for the bits of that where I rambled).

[Fuji]

I was unlucky enough to only catch the tail-end of Morrison's run, which was decent enough to start get me interested in X-Men properly, so I am a huge fan of what he did.

That said, I think that there were issues with the status quo that was left, for the comics - X-Men is both a social commentary in story form, that experiments with ideas of society and identity, and a superhero comic. The dynamics of the various X-Corporations and mutant population at large, stories like District X, that explored the mutant ghettos - they weren't superhero books. X-Men has worked in its ability to shift between the two strands of its makeup - if the X-Men became, completely, the X-Corps - or, worse, if the X-Men became simply a go-between of the various X-Corp groups - we would still be left with a minority group within the Mu but we wouldn't be left with a minority comic. X-Men has to function within the MU, and if suddenly mutants become much more the norm, the X-Men simply become the Avengers, as I see it. Plus, if mutants were so numerous, then they would infringe on the other titles on the Marvel Universe - it would move the entire MU away from a recognisable Earth to a science fiction universe. It could be written very well, but we are still left with the problems that a) it doesn't connect as easily with new, and some old, readers, b) the X-Men are no longer unique, they perhaps even become somewhat redundant, Buffy-of-the-Slayers style, c) we lose interest in the characters because they are replaceable, and d) everyone who doesn't read X-Men would have to deal with the themes in that title.

I severely dislike the way that M-Day and the Decimation were handled, but I don't think that the concept was a bad one, in fact I think in some ways it was necessary for the comics' survival. I'll admit that I'm not even finding Messiah Complex as satisfying as I hoped, but again, for a character-based storyline, and for business, its a good concept - a sense of urgency, of team-work, of mutant solidarity and separatism, a focus on the relationships of the characters - those are some core X-themes, and mutant solidarity would simply be a unrealisable political idea rather than a dramatic technique. Good writers might have been able to continue what Morrison started, but that's irrelevant if what they are writing well isn't the X-Men.

Obviously something needs to be done to correct the fact that new mutants are impossible, but as part of a process, I think Decimation and Messiah Complex are clever and needed.

(I apologise for the bits of that where I rambled).

I see your point about mutants interfering with all the other non-X titles, but I liked the fact that there were millions of mutants and it was a large scale issue in society. I think they could've kept the 20 million or whatever mutants and just not touched on the subject in other comics, however unlikely that would be. I mean c'mon, it is fiction, lol.

[Alan2099]

Sometimes I feel like I'm the only person that hated what Morrison did. It completley aboloished the hated and feared aspect and the paranoia associated with mutants.

People weren't afraid that somebody was a mutant anymore or that they might be a mutant. Mutants had their own little subculture. They were a part of sociaiety as a whole, not hidden strugling to fit in.

The problem with that is it makes the world not even sem like ours anymore, if it's considered perfectly alright for blue skinned and green finned kids to walk around town like normal people. There's imply too many mutants, and with numbers that huge, it's hard to see that mutants are persecuted if so many of them have so much power.

Also, it makes the X-men into a joke themselves. The X-men, the big name in mutants is hardly even a prescence in the new mutant centric world. How can they be involved with mutant rights and training the next generation of mutants if they don't even get to see more than 1 or 2 out of every thousand out there.

Basically, the X-men are minimilized in their own book and the world becomes to foreign from the world it's meant to represent. Both of which take me completley out of the story.

That, and those horrible leather costumes that just sucked.

[Fuji]

The thing is, even though they didn't discuss it, there were always an increasing number of mutants. it wasn't all of a sudden 16 million. Think about how easy it was for Xavier to find the new team in Giant Size X-Men #1. There were more mutants around back then than just the people he picked.

[Faded]

Sometimes I feel like I'm the only person that hated what Morrison did. It completley aboloished the hated and feared aspect and the paranoia associated with mutants.

People weren't afraid that somebody was a mutant anymore or that they might be a mutant. Mutants had their own little subculture. They were a part of sociaiety as a whole, not hidden strugling to fit in.

The problem with that is it makes the world not even sem like ours anymore, if it's considered perfectly alright for blue skinned and green finned kids to walk around town like normal people. There's imply too many mutants, and with numbers that huge, it's hard to see that mutants are persecuted if so many of them have so much power.

Also, it makes the X-men into a joke themselves. The X-men, the big name in mutants is hardly even a prescence in the new mutant centric world. How can they be involved with mutant rights and training the next generation of mutants if they don't even get to see more than 1 or 2 out of every thousand out there.

Basically, the X-men are minimilized in their own book and the world becomes to foreign from the world it's meant to represent. Both of which take me completley out of the story.

That, and those horrible leather costumes that just sucked.

I kinda liked how the world the X-Men lived in was so much bigger than they were. Now, they are the mutants. They have like, 10 different teams and only a couple hundred mutants overall.

I think there are huge flaws in both the Morrison Expansion as well as Decimation that could never work out in the long run, but either way its really just a mess that I don't think can sustain my readership if there isn't a Carey or a PAD or a Morrison to ease my mind from the conceptual madness.

I really don't think I could survive another ReLoad (in quality). Hell I don't think we could survive another ReLoad period, but that wasn't my point.

The concept itself just isn't as strong to string me along.

[ZNOP]

Sometimes I feel like I'm the only person that hated what Morrison did. It completley aboloished the hated and feared aspect and the paranoia associated with mutants.

People weren't afraid that somebody was a mutant anymore or that they might be a mutant. Mutants had their own little subculture. They were a part of sociaiety as a whole, not hidden strugling to fit in.

The problem with that is it makes the world not even sem like ours anymore, if it's considered perfectly alright for blue skinned and green finned kids to walk around town like normal people. There's imply too many mutants, and with numbers that huge, it's hard to see that mutants are persecuted if so many of them have so much power.

Also, it makes the X-men into a joke themselves. The X-men, the big name in mutants is hardly even a prescence in the new mutant centric world. How can they be involved with mutant rights and training the next generation of mutants if they don't even get to see more than 1 or 2 out of every thousand out there.

Basically, the X-men are minimilized in their own book and the world becomes to foreign from the world it's meant to represent. Both of which take me completley out of the story.

That, and those horrible leather costumes that just sucked.

Hmmmmmm.......

[MarvelGirlBoy]

Sometimes I feel like I'm the only person that hated what Morrison did. It completley aboloished the hated and feared aspect and the paranoia associated with mutants.

People weren't afraid that somebody was a mutant anymore or that they might be a mutant. Mutants had their own little subculture. They were a part of sociaiety as a whole, not hidden strugling to fit in.

The problem with that is it makes the world not even sem like ours anymore, if it's considered perfectly alright for blue skinned and green finned kids to walk around town like normal people. There's imply too many mutants, and with numbers that huge, it's hard to see that mutants are persecuted if so many of them have so much power.

Also, it makes the X-men into a joke themselves. The X-men, the big name in mutants is hardly even a prescence in the new mutant centric world. How can they be involved with mutant rights and training the next generation of mutants if they don't even get to see more than 1 or 2 out of every thousand out there.

Basically, the X-men are minimilized in their own book and the world becomes to foreign from the world it's meant to represent. Both of which take me completley out of the story.

That, and those horrible leather costumes that just sucked.

That's some of what I meant (only more coherent :D ). But I don't think it was a bad way for the X-Men to go, and I liked what I've read of what Morrison wrote, but it just couldn't remain the status quo, because that too heavily moves the comics away from their very core principles. Which is why M-Day wasn't a bad solution, in concept.

(Oh, and I agree about the costumes. They looked like bikers in lifejackets).

[Pro]

There's imply too many mutants, and with numbers that huge, it's hard to see that mutants are persecuted if so many of them have so much power.

Because thousands of tutsi weren't exterminated fairly recently simply because they belonged to a different tribe than the hutu majority while the world stood by and let it happen? Because thousands of homosexuals do not suffer persecution in dozens of countries,getting beaten, imprisoned, hanged? Because there aren't any hate crimes against homosexuals in the west despite their large number? Need I continue? Numbers do not stop hate crimes, certainly not a mere 16 million. Stalin killed 20000000 russians. Hitler killed 6000000 jews. 500000 tutsi were killed, the total death toll of tutsi and moderate hutu is estimated at around 800000 to 1000000.

And as mentioned before most mutants aren't that powerfull. Look at Xavier's students when mutants numbers were at their highest. The vast majority of students wouldn't stand a chance against a small group of racists and that was proven more than once during Morrison's run. 16 million mutants died because they weren't powerfull enough to defend a nation of primarily mutants.

I seem to recall plenty of persecution themes when it came to mutants in Morrison's period.

One problem with comics is that they are americano-centric. Regardless of how mutants were treated in the states they were no doubt persecuted and executed in dozens of other countries. And the vast majority of those 16 million mutants weren't living in the states. Despite what americans want to believe the USA is not the only country in the world.

Like i asked before, how many of the 16 million people living in the netherlands have you personally met? How many would you be able to pick out of a background crowd? The notion that mutants slanted the entire marvel universe toward mutant presence in all books is utter bull, sorry.

The reason for killing off the mutant race had nothing to do with them tainting other books with their presence. It was because the Avengers needed the spotlight and the storyline to accomplish that was a storyline that had defined the x-men for decades and Joe Q had to get rid of them to make Avengers Marvel's flagship and the reason for that is simply money, because avenger themed movies are the next movie franchise marvel wants to bleed dry.

[jarrod]

Well, all minorities have to get somewhere at some point with the mainstream... as a gay man, I'm certainly glad my minority isn't in the same state it was in the 1960s or even 1980s, even if a vocal minority may still outwardly "fear and hate" us.

Sure some things in the culture may be lost in gaining more general public acceptance, but it still opens more doors than it closes... and I felt it did the same for mutants in 616 honestly.



edit- discalimer: my position (much like the comic book industry) is probably too problematically americano-centric (sorry).

[Alan2099]

Because thousands of tutsi weren't exterminated fairly recently simply because they belonged to a different tribe than the hutu majority while the world stood by and let it happen? Because thousands of homosexuals do not suffer persecution in dozens of countries,getting beaten, imprisoned, hanged? Because there aren't any hate crimes against homosexuals in the west despite their large number? Need I continue? Numbers do not stop hate crimes, certainly not a mere 16 million. Stalin killed 20000000 russians. Hitler killed 6000000 jews. 500000 tutsi were killed, the total death toll of tutsi and moderate hutu is estimated at around 800000 to 1000000.
None of those people could control armies with their minds, of throw fireballs, or shoots lasers from their ears or withstand pointblank 50 cal machinegun fire, could they?

[jarrod]

None of those people could control armies with their minds, of throw fireballs, or shoots lasers from their ears or withstand pointblank 50 cal machinegun fire, could they?
Being fair, neither could Ugly John, Beak or Angel...

[Pro]

Being fair, neither could Ugly John, Beak or Angel...

Exactly, and they represent the average mutant. If that was not the case then genosha would not have been destroyed. If all mutants were as powerfull as Alan makes them out to be 16000000 mutants would not have died.

None of those people could control armies with their minds, of throw fireballs, or shoots lasers from their ears or withstand pointblank 50 cal machinegun fire, could they?

We follow the story of extraordinary mutants and their extraordinary enemies who are capable of "controlling armies with their minds". Most mutants aren't that strong and you bloody well know it. You just use a crooked statement to win a discussion. Your point was that their sheer numbers would make it next to impossible to persecute them. You haven't made your point. All you've shown is that some mutants are powerfull.

[Alan2099]

We follow the story of extraordinary mutants and their extraordinary enemies who are capable of "controlling armies with their minds". Most mutants aren't that strong and you bloody well know it.
Most aren't, but if only one out of every hundred mutants is that powerful, and there are now a million or so mutants,. yoy still have hundreds of mutants that can take out hundreds of people by themselves.

You just use a crooked statement to win a discussion.
I wasn't aware this was a contest. Who's keeping score?

Exactly, and they represent the average mutant.
And the average mutant? Even just looking at the students at Xaviers (not any of the big team members) most of them aren't just ugly. Even the Morlocks had more to them than just being ugly.

[Pro]

Most aren't, but if only one out of every hundred mutants is that powerful, and there are now a million or so mutants,. yoy still have hundreds of mutants that can take out hundreds of people by themselves.

So now we're only talking about a few hundred mutants who have enough power to affect human society. Certainly puts a dent in the theory that 16000000 mutants throws the whole marvel universe into imbalance.

Even the Morlocks had more to them than just being ugly.

Talk about mutants who had next to no effect whatsoever on human society or any of the other marvel books for that matter, except perhaps powerpack.

[CaptainCanada]

Most aren't, but if only one out of every hundred mutants is that powerful
So it isn't one in a hundred, it's one in a thousand, or ten thousand, or hundred thousand, or million. Morrison made a big point of showing that most mutants had useless or otherwise banal powers.

The idea that the "hated and feared" aspect is gone just because there are more mutants doesn't hold water at all; there are millions of African-Americans living in the USA, and we're only a generation or so removed from violent, systemic racism with legal backing. In fact, it's statistically proven that anti-whatever tendencies tend to become elevated due to closeness to whatever it is question. That's why Fascist parties get the most votes from areas with large populations of immigrants/Jews/what-have-you. And a rising mutant population is a demographic demonstration of the threat to population that they pose, rather than a rather hazy idea of a few thousand people who might some day dominate the planet.

Relating back to the idea that more and more powerful mutants are being born, then that makes more work for the X-Men. A large mutant population means more potential stories.

Now, I didn't like all of Morrison's ideas (the human extinction gene, for example, was just dumb, and unnecessary), but he had the right idea for mutant population.

[MarvelGirlBoy]

Because thousands of tutsi weren't exterminated fairly recently simply because they belonged to a different tribe than the hutu majority while the world stood by and let it happen? Because thousands of homosexuals do not suffer persecution in dozens of countries,getting beaten, imprisoned, hanged? Because there aren't any hate crimes against homosexuals in the west despite their large number? Need I continue? Numbers do not stop hate crimes, certainly not a mere 16 million. Stalin killed 20000000 russians. Hitler killed 6000000 jews. 500000 tutsi were killed, the total death toll of tutsi and moderate hutu is estimated at around 800000 to 1000000.

And as mentioned before most mutants aren't that powerfull. Look at Xavier's students when mutants numbers were at their highest. The vast majority of students wouldn't stand a chance against a small group of racists and that was proven more than once during Morrison's run. 16 million mutants died because they weren't powerfull enough to defend a nation of primarily mutants.

Well, quite - if X-Men titles focused on the "average mutant", it would not be a superhero comic - we'd just have realism, and I don't believe that X-Men sells for its realism any more than it sells for its science-fiction. It sells because of the connections it makes between social commentary and storyline - a balance that was out of whack as Morrison left it.

[Omega Alpha]

Well, quite - if X-Men titles focused on the "average mutant", it would not be a superhero comic - we'd just have realism, and I don't believe that X-Men sells for its realism any more than it sells for its science-fiction. It sells because of the connections it makes between social commentary and storyline - a balance that was out of whack as Morrison left it.

No one suggested for the X-men books to be focused only on the average mutants with powers which are useless offensively. In fact, Beak, Angel, etc, were all supporting characters. The spotlight was on Scott, Jank, Logan, and other X-men.

[MarvelGirlBoy]

No one suggested for the X-men books to be focused only on the average mutants with powers which are useless offensively. In fact, Beak, Angel, etc, were all supporting characters. The spotlight was on Scott, Jank, Logan, and other X-men.

But in a world which continued the road of expanded mutants as a subculture, who needs the X-Men? They aren't that numerous. They would either be redundant or they would become this new society's Avengers - which devalues their core concept of a superhero team that's a discriminated against minority, because their work would be amongst the mutants, who would idolise them.

A mutant society would form a mutant police force, and that wouldn't be exciting superhero work, it would be the mutant equivalent of NYPD Blue/The Bill. X-Corps made in-universe sense, but it could never hold the X-Men concept by itself because it changes the premise.