Is the Muliverse really confusing??

[Jon-El]

I started reading in 76 so I had the multiverse for 10 yrs. Honestly, I never remember it being much of a factor except for JLA/JSA teamups. It just explained how Superman first appeared in 1938. I guess DC could have ignored the older comics but chose this to explain the World War II adventures. I never picked up a comic and wondered what Earth it took place on.

When the first Crisis came out, I was excited to see the other Earths actually used. You never saw the Earth II Superman or Flash much other than in the All Star Squadron title. Crisis was a great story but it screwed up so many things like the Legion. I know it brought alot of needed attention to DC but putting Byrne on Superman would have sold books no matter what!

Here are a few ideas I had on how the original Crisis could have been done.
1. The ideal to me. Use the first Crisis to showcase what the muliverse was and all it's possiblilties. Maybe kill a few characters but don't do away with anything. Just a big story that could still introduce new characters.

2. Start everything over. Completely!! Not crazy about this one but alot of people would have loved it.

3. Do everything just the way it was but don't LOOK BACK!! How long was it before the first homages to the pre-Crisis universe started popping up? The writers were just as nostalgic as many of the fans! For the most part though, until the mid 90's things were going well. Then Alex Ross, Waid, and everybody started talking about the silver age and bam!

My fellings on comics are this. DON'T GET RID OF ANYTHING!! Ignore outdated concepts and add new ones but there will always be somebody wanting to do a Krypto story one day.

And for the record there should have been a Silver/Bronze age Superman entry in Who's Who. ;)

[botch]

Here are a few ideas I had on how the original Crisis could have been done.
1. The ideal to me. Use the first Crisis to showcase what the muliverse was and all it's possiblilties. Maybe kill a few characters but don't do away with anything. Just a big story that could still introduce new characters.


That's pretty much what they're doing now with Final Crisis.

[smoothjokes]

Honestly, DC's new multiverse is convulted and confusing. Its also boring. Marvel does it simple, it explains what the alternate reality is and publishes it in there guides to the marvel universe books. I am not confused by Marvel's alternate worlds because they have a name to them. The Age of Apocalypse earth, the House of M earth, Days of the Future Past earth, Marvel Zombies earth, Ultimate earth, and Earth-616. Those are just a few off the top of my head but it's nothing earth shattering to comprehend if you read direct market comics.

[mandarine]

Well at least they are staying away from any Hawkman stories... That thing with all the reincarnations and etc are really annoying...

[gwor]

Ignore outdated concepts and add new ones

I agree with your post (well said).

The 'confusion' that everyone complained about it in 1985 was non-existent; the multiverse was pretty straight-forward and usually explained clearly when the concept popped up in a typical book. The first Crisis was merely a badly-written marketing ploy to generate some buzz in DC, which had become a bit stagnant at that time.

Continuity works smoothly if writers focus on certain elements of a characters history without bringing up specific stories that might not necessarily jibe with his/her vision.

[BatWayne]

Speaking as a somewhat casual reader I do find the multiverse needlessly confusing. I'm fine with elesworlds stories but theres no reason why they should have to affect the ongoing continuity.
At the moment we have superman, Superman Prime, Cyborg Superman and Kingdom Come Superman all running around together. That is utterly ridiculous especially considering that Kingdom Come Superman is really just Superman except old. I know if I was a first time reader this would all be way to over complicated and confusing.
I grew up on the post crisis and dammit it made sense! Who cares if the Marvels are on the same planet as Batman or whatever. They can still have their own stories unconnected to anything. I really do not understand this endless need to have everything in continuity with each other. Just let the stories be stories.
Comics would be able to get so many more new readers if every issue was easy to pick up without needless exposition (it really does ruin dialogue most of the time) and endless back story.
I'll stop because I'm rambling but the multiverse, silver age, crisis rut DC has been has really been pissing me off. All I'm looking for are fun, well written and drawn tales of people fighting crime in spandex.

[DonC]

Honestly, DC's new multiverse is convulted and confusing.



It's amazing how many people are saying it isn't. Then they're having to explain how that isn't Kal-L from Earth-2, that's the Kingdom Come Superman from Earth-22. They just look, talk and act exactly alike. But they're different.

And it isn't confusing. Just don't ask how Black Canary became her own mom.

[COMIC GEEK]

been reading comics for just under 30 years now and more than ever its confusing as hell

[IamtheRock3]

I can follow it pretty well

52 earths

some are differnt by a lot, some are differnt by a little bit

[Choppa]

1. The ideal to me. Use the first Crisis to showcase what the muliverse was and all it's possiblilties. Maybe kill a few characters but don't do away with anything. Just a big story that could still introduce new characters.

But wasn't the point of the story to unify the multiverse to keep things simple? That idea kind of goes against the whole point of the story.



2. Start everything over. Completely!! Not crazy about this one but alot of people would have loved it.

Didn't they do that? We got a new Batman, Superman, etc with new origins.

[Shellhead]

But wasn't the point of the story to unify the multiverse to keep things simple? That idea kind of goes against the whole point of the story.

Didn't they do that? We got a new Batman, Superman, etc with new origins.

Things were reasonably simple before DC unified the multiverse. For all practical purposes, there was just the mainstream DC universe (Earth-1) and just a few other realities: Earth-2 (golden age DCU), Earth-3 (dominated by evil JLA), Earth-S (the Fawcett characters, including Captain Marvel and Bulleteer), and Earth-C (the Charlton characters, including Blue Beetle and Captain Atom). 99% of the time, the stories were about Earth-1 and its universe. Once or twice a year, the JLA would team up with the JSA and possibly have some adventures on Earth-2. Maybe once a decade, there would be an Earth-3 or Earth-S story. That was it.

Anybody who thinks the Multiverse was complicated back then... well, I had no trouble following JLA #100-102 when I was 5 years old, despite the fact that the story involved the JLA and the JSA teaming up to travel through time to rescue the Seven Soldiers of Victory. It was easy. This Green Lantern has brown hair and got his ring from an intergalactic police force, while that Green Lantern has blond hair his ring is magic. Etc.

No, the real mess was the aftermath of Crisis on Infinite Earths. That's when some characters merged, some characters vanished, some characters got a new origin, and some characters got completely messed up. Since then, DC has repeatedly tinkered with their continuity, and the result has unfortunately been even more continuity problems.

The smart thing would have been to start up a new Earth at the end of that first Crisis, but leave at least some of the other Earths around, too. On the new Earth, they could pick and choose what elements to keep and what elements to discard, ala carte. Then they could have had a few stories once in a while that involved the old characters. For example, Infinity Inc got hosed by the first Crisis, because suddenly they became redundant with the Teen Titans (based on age) and also the Outsiders (based on geography). They could have been left out of the new Earth completely, but still showed up once in a while for a big cosmic story that involved Earth-2 as well as the new Earth.

The advantages of this approach are numerous. DC could continue to age both their golden and silver age characters on Earth-1 and Earth-2, allowing them to tell stories involving marriage, kids, getting old and finally dying. At the same time, they could have conveniently younger characters on the new Earth, avoiding the problem of an aging Batman or Wonder Woman. They could experiment with some new ideas, and if fans reacted poorly, DC could retreat to telling new stories with the old Earth-1 characters until they had time to regroup things on the new Earth.

[botch]

Just don't ask how Black Canary became her own mom.

What??????????

[ShaggyB]

At the moment we have superman, Superman Prime, Cyborg Superman and Kingdom Come Superman all running around together. That is utterly ridiculous especially considering that Kingdom Come Superman is really just Superman except old. I know if I was a first time reader this would all be way to over complicated and confusing.

Ummm how is Cyborg Superman a problem to do with the multi-verse? Hes from the death of superman arc. He also has a great deal to do with hal jordon and the lanterns. how is he confusing or out of time/space?

[Anodyne]

And it isn't confusing. Just don't ask how Black Canary became her own mom.

What??????????
http://www.dcuguide.com/who.php?name=blackcanary2prec#history
The daughter of the original Black Canary, Dinah Lance was cursed by the Wizard while still an infant, creating the Canary Cry. As she was unable to control this power, Johnny Thunder's Thunderbolt took her to his own dimension and removed all memories of her existence from her parents. After the original Black Canary was fatally injured during the battle with Aquarius, the Thunderbolt retrieved her daughter and had her take the elder's place. The younger Canary moved to Earth-One and joined the Justice League. For years, she believed that she was her mother.

For the post-Crisis, canonical version of this character, see Black Canary II.
Actually, IIRC, the dying Black Canary I, while being taken from Earth 2 to Earth 1, passed through Thunderbolt's dimension. She found her daughter there, still in suspended animation but now aged to womanhood. When the mother expressed the wish that her daughter could live, the Thunderbolt put the mother's consciousness in the daughter's body, supposedly awakening the daughter.

My problem with that is, DC had previously established that the true identity of a person was determined by the mind within the body, not by the physical body. So it seems to me that, rather than of giving her daughter a chance to live, Dinah Drake Lance was really taking over her daughter's healthy body to continue her own life.

[BatWayne]

Ummm how is Cyborg Superman a problem to do with the multi-verse? Hes from the death of superman arc. He also has a great deal to do with hal jordon and the lanterns. how is he confusing or out of time/space?

He's not but I was using him as an example of a character being repeated over and over again. And just to show that at the moment their is an extreme overflow of supermen.

[IdiotGod]

It's amazing how many people are saying it isn't. Then they're having to explain how that isn't Kal-L from Earth-2, that's the Kingdom Come Superman from Earth-22. They just look, talk and act exactly alike. But they're different.

apart from greying hair, how do they look alike?

and how do they talk alike?

[Shellhead]

And it isn't confusing. Just don't ask how Black Canary became her own mom.

That was one of the very few aspects of the Pre-Crisis Multiverse that was actually confusing. It wasn't until DC got rid of the Multiverse in the mid-80s that we got such messed-up characters as Power Girl, Hawkman, and Donna Troy.

[Babylon23]

I never had any problem with the multiverse pre-Crisis. The first DC story I remember reading was the JLA-JSA-7 Soldiers crossover. The first series I ever collected was All-Star Squadron. In All-Star, It was always clearly stated that these stories were set on a different Earth. That was all I needed to know in order to follow the stories.

I was 7 when I began reading All-Star Squadron, and even at that young age, I understood the multiverse concept just fine.

No, the real mess was the aftermath of Crisis on Infinite Earths. That's when some characters merged, some characters vanished, some characters got a new origin, and some characters got completely messed up. Since then, DC has repeatedly tinkered with their continuity, and the result has unfortunately been even more continuity problems.

Totally agree. As much as I love CoIE, the post-Crisis stories is when things got confusing. Characters like Power Girl, Donna Troy and the Legion were intrinsically tied to characters and worlds that no longer existed, and DC tried to shoehorn them into their new world, causing a lot more confusion than the pre-Crisis multiverse ever did.

[Michael P]

The multiverse, in its current configuration, is not confusing. It is, however, without purpose. The original multiverse came into being as a way to have Barry Allen and Jay Garrick meet one another. Later this was expanded to allow crossovers between the current line of superhero comics and any line the company had previously published or acquired the rights to. In contrast, the current multiverse exists so that DC can have a multiverse. It's an inorganic and poorly thought-out marketing tool.

[Buried Alien]

The multiverse, in its current configuration, is not confusing. It is, however, without purpose. The original multiverse came into being as a way to have Barry Allen and Jay Garrick meet one another. Later this was expanded to allow crossovers between the current line of superhero comics and any line the company had previously published or acquired the rights to. In contrast, the current multiverse exists so that DC can have a multiverse. It's an inorganic and poorly thought-out marketing tool.

It can still be used to accommodate the interests of younger and older fans alike. The questions that remain are A). whether DC has any interest in using the new Multiverse in this manner and B). whether they have the creative resources at hand to carry it out.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Michael P]

It can still be used to accommodate the interests of younger and older fans alike.

How, exactly? All the characters the Silver Age JLA used to cross over with are living in the same universe as they are, now. And if the sales on the Countdown: Search for Ray Palmer one-shots are any indication, younger fans don't seem to be all that interested in cross-universe adventures. (Assuming there are any younger fans.)

[Buried Alien]

How, exactly?

Ideally, Post-FINAL CRISIS, there will be:

1. New Earth: the DC Earth since 2005. The Post-COIE evolution of characters stands. Dick Grayson is Nightwing. Wally West is the Flash. Tim Drake, Kyle Rayner, and other 1990s/2000s characters are in their familiar, current roles.

2. Earth-1: the classic Silver/Bronze Age DCU as it stood before the mid-1980s. Dick Grayson is Robin. Barry Allen is the Flash. Something resembling the world seen in JUSTICE.

The main challenge will be scheduling enough stories in each of these two universes to keep fans of all ages happy.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[thestrongestonethereis]

Honestly, DC's new multiverse is convulted and confusing. Its also boring. Marvel does it simple, it explains what the alternate reality is and publishes it in there guides to the marvel universe books. I am not confused by Marvel's alternate worlds because they have a name to them. The Age of Apocalypse earth, the House of M earth, Days of the Future Past earth, Marvel Zombies earth, Ultimate earth, and Earth-616. Those are just a few off the top of my head but it's nothing earth shattering to comprehend if you read direct market comics.

Agreed. Who gives them the names? Why is the Superman Prime universe given a name and not a number like all the others? All my DC exposure had been post-crisis and trying to follow some of this stuff now it does get kinda crazy - somebodys description of a story on another board:
"
> The whole thing makes very little sense in terms of plot.

The plot can be condensed into this:

The JLA and the JSA are turned into guest stars in their own comics while a Legion that hasn't been published or been in continuity in more than a decade runs around doing a homage to a story that was kinda crappy in the first place to resurrect a guy they never met in their entire freaking lives. Karate Kid then undermines both stories by jumping out of the way proving that nobody needed to day for the stupid thing to work."

At Marvel a few years ago continuity was a dirty word. And that was a bad thing. At DC now it seems to be an obsession. Quesada and Jemas used to talk about continuity holding back good stories. But in reality it holds the fictional universe together. At DC today, continuity seems to be the story.

After Final Crisis they should have a multiverse or hypertime type thing if only for the fact that if they dont those people who are SA fans are gonna bring it back in 10 years. And then writers who grew up on Byrne Superman are gonna bring him back. And then those who grew up in this "Crisis Crisis" era will bring that back. etc....
hh

[Mon-el]

The multiverse is confusing.

I have to read superhero comics to understand it.

I have to learn stuff.

Oh, the pain of it all.

and yes this message is sarcasm.

[botch]

It can still be used to accommodate the interests of younger and older fans alike. The questions that remain are A). whether DC has any interest in using the new Multiverse in this manner and B). whether they have the creative resources at hand to carry it out.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

New readers will always go for the main universe.

[botch]

Ideally, Post-FINAL CRISIS, there will be:

1. New Earth: the DC Earth since 2005. The Post-COIE evolution of characters stands. Dick Grayson is Nightwing. Wally West is the Flash. Tim Drake, Kyle Rayner, and other 1990s/2000s characters are in their familiar, current roles.

2. Earth-1: the classic Silver/Bronze Age DCU as it stood before the mid-1980s. Dick Grayson is Robin. Barry Allen is the Flash. Something resembling the world seen in JUSTICE.

The main challenge will be scheduling enough stories in each of these two universes to keep fans of all ages happy.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

You mean those in their late teen and 20's and those in their 30's and 40's right. No one else really reads comics, especially DC comics. If any kids and that's a damn small percentage read comics, it will be Marvel and only the big guns like Spidey, X-men and Wolverine books.

[Eric P]

speaking as someone who got into DC regular continuity within the past year or so, it can be confusing, but wikipedia is really helpful if i can't figure something out in context.

[MythicBrawn]

DC's problem is that it has tried to tie the past, present, and future all together into one reality. Look at the LoSH. Originally, LoSH was inspired by Superboy. Once CoIE occurred, DC had to retcon LoSH so it fit with post-CoIE. Of course, this only made it more confusing. The more DC tries to fix its universes/continuities, the more it messes them up. Eliminating the multiverse (CoIE) was the problem that caused this mess. Changing Superman's origin whenever a popular incarnation (Smallville, Birthright, etc.) comes along also makes it confusing. DC needs to revive the multiverse, establish a single reality that mainline DC follows, and leave the rest to alternate uni/multiverses. Why in the world does there need to only be 52 realities? You don't see Marvel having Crisis events every 20 years, or even annually, because the management can't keep its continuities straight. I guess this is DC trying to set itself apart from its competition. Fans of Marvel may complain about aspects of Marvel but I don't believe they're complaining about its mixed-up continuities.

[Shellhead]

DC's problem is that it has tried to tie the past, present, and future all together into one reality. Look at the LoSH. Originally, LoSH was inspired by Superboy. Once CoIE occurred, DC had to retcon LoSH so it fit with post-CoIE. Of course, this only made it more confusing. The more DC tries to fix its universes/continuities, the more it messes them up. Eliminating the multiverse (CoIE) was the problem that caused this mess. Changing Superman's origin whenever a popular incarnation (Smallville, Birthright, etc.) comes along also makes it confusing. DC needs to revive the multiverse, establish a single reality that mainline DC follows, and leave the rest to alternate uni/multiverses. Why in the world does there need to only be 52 realities? You don't see Marvel having Crisis events every 20 years, or even annually, because the management can't keep its continuities straight. I guess this is DC trying to set itself apart from its competition. Fans of Marvel may complain about aspects of Marvel but I don't believe they're complaining about its mixed-up continuities.

The Crisis on Infinite Earths didn't mess up Legion continuity. DC could have easily declared that it was unaffected, because it reflected the future of the post-Crisis Earth. The real problem was that John Byrne wanted to retcon Superboy out of existence and used the Crisis as an excuse. That decision has caused endless pain for Legion fans ever since.

[Choppa]

I am not confused by Marvel's alternate worlds because they have a name to them. The Age of Apocalypse earth, the House of M earth, Days of the Future Past earth, Marvel Zombies earth, Ultimate earth, and Earth-616.

Didn't House of M happen on Earth 616?

[Choppa]

What confuses me is whether or not the new universe is teh same as the old one. Is it?

[davros42]

I am not confused by Marvel's alternate worlds because they have a name to them. The Age of Apocalypse earth, the House of M earth, Days of the Future Past earth, Marvel Zombies earth, Ultimate earth, and Earth-616. Those are just a few off the top of my head but it's nothing earth shattering to comprehend if you read direct market comics.

What's the name of the Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane Earth? What's the name of the Earth that the Marvel Adventures line takes place in? What about the Power Pack and Whoever series? Is the Franklin Richards series in 616 or is it in some other universe? Is Astonishing X-Men non-canon or just running really behind? Since Ultimate and 616 are supposed to be seperate but equal, does that mean all the alternate Ultimate realities are exclusive and folks from 616 can't visit them?

[davros42]

What confuses me is whether or not the new universe is teh same as the old one. Is it?

Yes. But the new multiverse is not the same as the old one.

Wrap your head around that!

I say they're the same because in CoIE, Zero Hour, and to a certain extent Infinite Crisis, the universe was rebooted from scratch and overwrote the existing universe. There is no other universe, but there are other multiverses...

But the long and the short of it is: yes, once you move too much further beyond Earth-2 is the Golden Age, Earth-3 is evil, Earth-S is Shazam, Earth-Prime is the "real world" and start addressing the physics and metaphysics of a multiverse it gets confusing real quick.

[Choppa]

^What? I really don't understand what you're saying. They aren't the same b/c when the Earth was restarted new universes were created? But they are the same because of what?

Also, in those restarts, didn't the universe have to restart exactly the way it had so that things could go back to normal?

[Shellhead]

Honestly, DC's new multiverse is convulted and confusing. Its also boring. Marvel does it simple, it explains what the alternate reality is and publishes it in there guides to the marvel universe books. I am not confused by Marvel's alternate worlds because they have a name to them. The Age of Apocalypse earth, the House of M earth, Days of the Future Past earth, Marvel Zombies earth, Ultimate earth, and Earth-616. Those are just a few off the top of my head but it's nothing earth shattering to comprehend if you read direct market comics.

Marvel at least has an impressive number of alternate realities. You may have forgotten a few:

Earth-9,-12,-15,-27,-33,-36,-65,-98,-108,-110,-111,-127,-148,-172,-181,
-238,-253,-295,-305,-311,-312,-313,-355,-371,-374,-398,-460,-520,-522,
-523,-541,-552,,-555,-597,-616,-617,-653,-665,-689,-691,-700,-712,
-714,-715,-717,-721,-723,-741,-744,-772,-774,-794,-797,-808,-811,-829,
-839,-846,-861,-873,-886,-892,-907,-912,-917,-920,-921,-924,-928,-929,
-932,-938,-943,-944,-952,-967,-969,-982,-989,-998,-999,

[skipping all the ones with 4- and 5-digit designations]

Earth-105709,-120185,-148611,-187319, and -818793.

Needless to say, this numbering system implies many more alternate realities that we haven't even been shown (yet) in actual Marvel comics.

Also, there have been a couple of Counter-Earths, the Darkforce Dimension (not to be confused with Dormammu's Dark Dimension), Limbo (not to be confused with True Limbo), the Microverse, the Mojoverse, the Negative Zone, Otherworld, and the Void, a pocket dimension that exists inside Shaman's medicine bag (not to be confused with Sentry's other identity, The Void).

Don't believe me? Curious to find out what some of these numbered realities represent? Wikipedia can help:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_Multiverse

[Captain Smith]

The aftermath of COIE was screwed once it was decided to have folks forget the Crisis. If the Crisis happened and it was remembered then all might have been well. PG would have been the alternate cousin. But it was thought to redo Supes away from the Silver Age one into weakling Mullet Man for example.

They just should have had one Earth with survivor heroes who remembered the song and dance of COIE and go on. Instead, they forgot like Supes or repressed it like Shazam.

I think the current system is a mess. Too many Supes flying around. In the MU, there are infinite everybodies - so that they can have a Kang Convention. That might be the way to go. Instead we have one crappy little planet being the hinge for 52 13.7 billion light year wide universes that all disappear if SPB destroys one crappy planet? Huh?

[Babylon23]

What confuses me is whether or not the new universe is teh same as the old one. Is it?

Simple answer. The current DCU is almost identicle to the pre-Infinite Crisis DCU with some minor changes. Lex luthor and Clark Kent knew each other as children, Wonder Woman was a member of the original JLA lineup, etc.

All the other universes are alternate realities.

[Eumenides]

I got into DC in the '90s, after being a comics fan for a few years (especially devoted to Marvel) and I still feel more comfortable reading their stuff from the early '80s and mid '90s: Suicide Squad, JLI, Mr Miracle, Dr Fate, Wonder Woman, Starman, Hawk & Dove, Checkmate... DC was so wonderfully straightforward back then, I loved it.

But I can't get into anything DC writes these days: it seems all the top writers who are old enough to remember the old continuity they read as kids(Morrison, Waid, Johns, Ross, etc.), use their influence to shove this crap down the throats of people like me who couldn't care less about a new Legion of Superheroes showing up in JLA, or 3 different versions of Superman, Power Girl being from Earth-2 (I think; is she? I couldn't care less) and dozens of parallel earths, plus crossovers after crossovers to explain and fix inconsistencies.

Maybe 20 years from now we'll have a generation of top writers influenced by the clear storytelling of Giffen, Perez, DeMatteis, Byrne, etc., that we had in the '80's, and things will get straightforward again. As it is right now, I mostly read DC's Showcase Presents volumes. Now that's good fun!

[kentonindy]

How could you people possibly find DC's multiverse confusing?

Do you understand that the Adam West Batman and the SuperFriends Batman are different? How about the Timmverse and "The Batman" Batmen? Do you get that Michael Keaton and Christian Bale aren't playing the exact same character?

If you can grasp all of that, then there's little reason why you should find the DC multiverse confusing. Hells, this stuff should be *exciting* you, not *confusing* you. The JLA/JSA crossovers were my favorite books as a kid.

At least 50% of this "confusion" crap comes from people who like anything when Marvel does it and dislike it when DC does it. There's *no* infraction, real or imagined, that can be leveled against DC which doesn't also apply equally to Marvel, and vice versa. *You* try having a thousand-plus people writing stories in a shared universe for a few decades and see if you don't have some continuity issues

The only thing more baffling than this "DC's multiverse confuses me" attitude is this whole DC vs. Marvel debate itself. When I was a kid I read both, and I still do today. Both universes have their pluses and minuses, and both are capable of generating amazing stories. If you don't "get" the LSH currently guest-starring in ACTION, then read SUPES or ALL-STAR SUPES. If you don't follow Marvel's multiverse, then stick with either regular books or Ultimate books exclusively, and forget about EXILES.

[Eumenides]

Superfriends, Adam West, Keaton and Bale... you're talking about television; why should people feel confused about it? It won't cross into the comics, it's meaningless.

The idea of multiple Earths doesn't particularly bother me... just the annoying nostalia attached to it; I can't stand this pre-1986 love. Everything DC does now has to reference obscure comics from the '70s, that may or may not be in continuity anymore... why? It's like the writers are all locked up in a room and forced to read all the Showcase Presents volumes to come up with obscure trivia from 30 years ago. I hate the multiverse because it's a big part of this nostalgic trend in DC right now, and I wish it'd be gone fast.

[DonC]

apart from greying hair, how do they look alike?

and how do they talk alike?


They look like Superman with grey hair. And they talk like Superman. With Grey hair.

Go to the JSA and Superman threads and look at how many people are asking if Kingdom Come Superman is Earth-1 Superman. It isn't an epidemic or anything, but there are two or three people who have asked.

[Rik Sunn]

It's not confusing. Because multiverse characters often interact together in DC, in a way that's rare at Marvel (or in other, similar fiction), it seems a little more daunting to some outsiders (the "multiple Supermen" issue mentioned above, for example), but that's one of the reasons that having numbered universes and slight costume tweaks and all that helps out.

[Rik Sunn]

They look like Superman with grey hair. And they talk like Superman. With Grey hair.

Go to the JSA and Superman threads and look at how many people are asking if Kingdom Come Superman is Earth-1 Superman. It isn't an epidemic or anything, but there are two or three people who have asked.

Well, first off anyone who hasn't read "Kingdom Come" needs to, and then that question will be answered.

Second, I think the main reason that the question comes up is because Power Girl is wrestling with the question herself. And she's allowed, since she can't read "Kingdom Come." :D

[tony ingram]

Superfriends, Adam West, Keaton and Bale... you're talking about television; why should people feel confused about it? It won't cross into the comics, it's meaningless.

The idea of multiple Earths doesn't particularly bother me... just the annoying nostalia attached to it; I can't stand this pre-1986 love. Everything DC does now has to reference obscure comics from the '70s, that may or may not be in continuity anymore... why? It's like the writers are all locked up in a room and forced to read all the Showcase Presents volumes to come up with obscure trivia from 30 years ago. I hate the multiverse because it's a big part of this nostalgic trend in DC right now, and I wish it'd be gone fast.

You hate it because it's meaningless to you. Older fans love it because it's not meaningless to them. Why should we be denied a layer to the stories that we appreciate because you weren't reading pre 1986?

[Eumenides]

You hate it because it's meaningless to you. Older fans love it because it's not meaningless to them. Why should we be denied a layer to the stories that we appreciate because you weren't reading pre 1986?

And with that type of reasoning, the superhero audience just keeps getting thinner and thinner. Why attract new readers with fresh, straightforward stories, when you can cater to fans from 20 years ago by revisiting the same stuff with more violence and cheesecake, alienating new readers with obscure continuity trivia?

Don't you people have the Showcase Presents series already? What more do you want? You have no reason to complain; you can get all your favourite stories. I can't - DC doesn't seems too interested in printing their series from the '80s in cheap tpbs. I have to wait for them to actually create good modern stories, which doesn't happen too often either; so who's being denied something here?

[Shellhead]

They look like Superman with grey hair. And they talk like Superman. With Grey hair.

Go to the JSA and Superman threads and look at how many people are asking if Kingdom Come Superman is Earth-1 Superman. It isn't an epidemic or anything, but there are two or three people who have asked.

And in the Spider-man forum here at CBR, there was a guy complaining that he couldn't understand how people could reconcile the existence of both Spider-man and Ultimate Spider-man. And there are still people who think that the earth is flat because it looks flat. I'm not losing sleep over their problems, and I'm confident that DC and Marvel won't be writing comics for them.

EDIT: Link to Spider-thread:

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=199456

"How do you guys rationalize the existense of Earth 616 and the Ultimate stuff? What do you tell yourselves???"

[Shellhead]

And with that type of reasoning, the superhero audience just keeps getting thinner and thinner. Why attract new readers with fresh, straightforward stories, when you can cater to fans from 20 years ago by revisiting the same stuff with more violence and cheesecake, alienating new readers with obscure continuity trivia?

Don't you people have the Showcase Presents series already? What more do you want? You have no reason to complain; you can get all your favourite stories. I can't - DC doesn't seems too interested in printing their series from the '80s in cheap tpbs. I have to wait for them to actually create good modern stories, which doesn't happen too often either; so who's being denied something here?

There are at least a couple of reasons why modern writers keep re-hashing a lot of old stories. First, they enjoyed the old stories. Second, they are having trouble coming up with completely original new stories of any quality.

[tony ingram]

And with that type of reasoning, the superhero audience just keeps getting thinner and thinner. Why attract new readers with fresh, straightforward stories, when you can cater to fans from 20 years ago by revisiting the same stuff with more violence and cheesecake, alienating new readers with obscure continuity trivia?

Don't you people have the Showcase Presents series already? What more do you want? You have no reason to complain; you can get all your favourite stories. I can't - DC doesn't seems too interested in printing their series from the '80s in cheap tpbs. I have to wait for them to actually create good modern stories, which doesn't happen too often either; so who's being denied something here?
What more do we want? Perhaps to be rewarded for our loyalty by continuing to have stories aimed at us? Continuity doesn't alienate new readers unless they're of a very unenquiring turn of mind;when i was getting into comics (about 1976) i was delighted to find these characters had this huge backstory-it left me eager to learn more! And given that a huge chunk of the current readership, like it or not, consists of long term fans, to abandon the nostalgia ellement would be very silly, commercially. The trick is to write stories that have something for everyone, not to alienate one section of the audience in order to appease another.

[Slaughter]

I like the multiverse. I think they should explore more the whole "Twilight Zone Feeling" that multiversal travel brings. Remeber JLA: Earth 2 where Luthor called the positive Earth "Earth 2?" Yes, that's what I'm talking about. People does't like their universes being called "Earth 15, Earth 794", they want to be THE NUMBER ONE!!

[tony ingram]

I like the multiverse. I think they should explore more the whole "Twilight Zone Feeling" that multiversal travel brings. Remeber JLA: Earth 2 where Luthor called the positive Earth "Earth 2?" Yes, that's what I'm talking about. People does't like their universes being called "Earth 15, Earth 794", they want to be THE NUMBER ONE!!
The JLA and JSA used to bicker over the naming of Earth 1 and Earth 2 all the time, yet Captain Britain and the X Men have never objected to Roma referring to their world as Earth 616. Maybe Marvel characters are less insecure?

[Rik Sunn]

The JLA and JSA used to bicker over the naming of Earth 1 and Earth 2 all the time, yet Captain Britain and the X Men have never objected to Roma referring to their world as Earth 616. Maybe Marvel characters are less insecure?

Well, in fairness, isnt' Roma kind of extradimensional and goddessy? If someone who could see the universe for what it was, told me I was 616 I'd probably believe them. If it was just a different version of me from a few universes over, we might have words. ;)

[tony ingram]

Well, in fairness, isnt' Roma kind of extradimensional and goddessy? If someone who could see the universe for what it was, told me I was 616 I'd probably believe them. If it was just a different version of me from a few universes over, we might have words. ;)
Oh, i know. My Earth 33.3 counterpart is such an arrogant b*****d, i won't let him in the house, these days...

[Choppa]

I still haven't gotten a straight answer. If the new multiverse is just like the old one but with minor difference, as someone said, then you're saying that it's new and different than the previous multiverse and characters, correct? Then wouldn't that mean that there is another Earth Prime where another Superboy Prime lives? And why would Powergirl and Superman be missing from this Earth 2? If it's a new multiverse, then there should be another version of them for that Earth. The fact that there isn't implies that it's the same multiverse brought back. But that doesn't make any sense since there are differences and it doesn't make sense how something that was wiped out of existence can exist again. How is this not confusing??

[Shellhead]

I still haven't gotten a straight answer. If the new multiverse is just like the old one but with minor difference, as someone said, then you're saying that it's new and different than the previous multiverse and characters, correct? Then wouldn't that mean that there is another Earth Prime where another Superboy Prime lives? And why would Powergirl and Superman be missing from this Earth 2? If it's a new multiverse, then there should be another version of them for that Earth. The fact that there isn't implies that it's the same multiverse brought back. But that doesn't make any sense since there are differences and it doesn't make sense how something that was wiped out of existence can exist again. How is this not confusing??

The new multiverse (post-Infinite Crisis) is not just like the old multiverse (pre-Crisis on Infinite Earths). The new multiverse consists of just 52 universes, while the old multiverse consisted of an infinite number of universes. However, for the most part, New Earth is almost exactly the same as Earth just before Infinite Crisis.

Superboy Prime's Earth-Prime was destroyed in the Crisis on Infinite Earths. It's possible that one of the current set of 52 Earths strongly resembles his Earth, but that would just be a coincidence, since the additional 51 Earths were apparently identical to New Earth until Mister Mind's rampage inflicted massive changes in continuity to those Earths. The fact that Power Girl and Superman are missing from the new Earth-2 is simply another coincidental effect of Mister Mind's changes.

I admit that the current state of the Multiverse is confusing. Not because a Multiverse is inherently confusing, but because of the following factors:

1. The Crisis on Infinite Earths resulted in a whole slew of retcons to reconcile all these heroes now co-existing on one Earth.
2. Two of DC's most popular titles at that time, Teen Titans and Legion of Super-Heroes, were affected heavily by those retcons, and not for the better.
3. Varying editorial stances towards the older heroes of the JSA have some serious upheavals and retcons involving those characters, especially the "death" of the Justice Society and the vicious housecleaning of Zero Hour.
4. Infinite Crisis brought back the Multiverse in a sloppy and thoughtless manner, then left it undefined until after OYL.
5. Some of the OYL revelations about the new Multiverse have misleading concepts, like the "missing" Power Girl and Superman of Earth-2.
6. DC apparently doesn't plan on doing much to clarify the 52 Earths and the overall Multiverse until Final Crisis.
7. Final Crisis may not give that necessary clarity, either. Grant Morrison will be writing it, and while he is fantastically creative, some of his concepts are strange and difficult to understand. Hypertime, for example.

[Shellhead]

One distinct difference between DC and Marvel is how they handle time travel.

Marvel almost always treats potential changes by time travellers as merely creating a new divergent reality. The original reality remains unchanged, but the attempt creates an additional reality where the change takes place. Although this means that Marvel now has a large number of identified and distinct realities, it doesn't cause much confusion because there isn't much interaction between the various alternate realities, and the most popular ones are considered separate product lines.

DC has usually gone with the traditional minor time travel paradox result, but has unfortunately allowed major retroactive changes to happen during various major crossover stories. This approach has caused considerable problems. Rather than just offering more alternate realities for writers to use or ignore, the retroactive choices create confusion and take away choices from writers.

[tony ingram]

7. Final Crisis may not give that necessary clarity, either. Grant Morrison will be writing it, and while he is fantastically creative, some of his concepts are strange and difficult to understand. Hypertime, for example.

I still don't understand Hypertime. Surely, it's basically the multiverse under a different name, which means there was still a multiverse pre-IC? If not, where did the Kingdom crowd come from? And why is Kingdom Come's Earth now part of the new multiverse? And why, in Kingdom 2, did Kal-L look so cheerful if, by that time, he was already becoming disillusioned with the state of affairs on New Earth? What happened to the presumably illusory Metropolis seen in Kingdom 2, which was not subsequently seen in IC? Arghh!

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

I have been reading DC comics off and on since the early 1970s and I am confused as all get-out. I cannot keep up with all the changes and revisions. I sometimes go years without reading anything and when I return, I can't follow who's who.

[IRONY...]

Of course the Multi-verse is confusing...

That is why in Great Year 1985 DC did the COIE in order to simplify the 55 years of 1,000,000 parallel earths

And now it is back for the next 50 years...

[Sijo]

The difference between Parallel Earths and Alternate Realities is not easy to see, but it is important: the latter depends on alterations to time, and can be erased that way as well. A Parallel Earth, on the other hand, exists independently.

I'll give you an example: Let's assume the Earth-1 Superman has many possible futures. He might retire happily married or he might die in battle, for example. Now assume Luthor or somebody else goes back in time and prevents Superman from being born. All of a sudden, Superman 1 ceases to exist, and nobody remembers he existed except Luthor. All of his possible futures also cease to exist. However, the Earth 2 Superman would STILL exist, because it's a separate universe. To eliminate ALL the universes, you would have to go to the point they were created and prevent THAT from happening. (Which is what happened in Crisis, sort of.)

Hypertime added a hard-to-accept idea to the Alternate Realities concept, in that timelines affected each other for no reason: in other words, reality rebooted without warning, and suddenly dead people would be alive, like Jason Todd. This was eventually explained as being *groan* Superboy Prime hitting the Wall of Reality or whatever. Makes you wonder how nobody noticed (even if only beings like The Spectre) and acted upon it.

Oh and no, the Multiverse was never that confusing. I was around buying comics at the time and I can tell you that Parallel Earths were referenced so rarely that it didn't confuse most people. But DC needed a justification for the big universal reboot; the REAL reason was that keeping track of 50 years of continuity was getting too hard to do (this was before the Net) but claiming it was to ease things for the reader sounded better.

[Shellhead]

Oh and no, the Multiverse was never that confusing. I was around buying comics at the time and I can tell you that Parallel Earths were referenced so rarely that it didn't confuse most people. But DC needed a justification for the big universal reboot; the REAL reason was that keeping track of 50 years of continuity was getting too hard to do (this was before the Net) but claiming it was to ease things for the reader sounded better.

DC continuity wasn't that hard to keep track of back then, either. The golden age stuff was all done-in-one with minimal continuity to worry about, because the fanbase was so young at the time. The silver age was fairly straight-forward, except for the Black Canary fiasco.

I firmly believe that the real reason for the first Crisis was to merge several realities so that all their best characters lived in the same setting. Otherwise, Captain Marvel and the Charlton characters would have been stuck in limbo, relegated to rare guest appearances. Only the Earth-2 characters were doing okay, though mostly confined to the pages of Infinity, Inc.

Exhibit A:

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/large/45004343634.1.gif

That cover included Batman, Martian Manhunter, and Guy Gardner of Earth-1.

*Doctor Fate and Black Canary of Earth-2.
*Blue Beetle of Earth-4 (Charlton Comics)
*Captain Marvel of Earth-S (Fawcett Comics)
*Mister Miracle and Oberon of the Fourth World, a setting that was originally independent of the DCU, but later integrated with the Earth-1 universe.
*and Doctor Light II, a character who first appeared during Crisis on Infinite Earths.

Prior to COIE, these characters would never have formed a team together.

[Carter Hall]

I don't think the Multiverse is necessarily confusing but I hate the current way they've brought it back. I hate the 52 earths thing, and doing it immediately after Infinite Crisis which I thought was a great story.

The Multiverse made sense 20 years ago. It feels like a forced, tacked-on idea to me now.

[TROUBLEZ]

I think the 52 Earths is way overdoing it.

An Earth 1 (JLA) and Earth 2 (JSA) make sense, and an Anti-Matter Earth for the exact opposite of Earth 1 (Crime Syndicate of America) and maybe Earth-S (Captain Marvel is too big to share most powerful superhero role with Superman).

After that I don't see the point. Does the Kyptonian Batman from Elseworlds "Speeding Bullets," really need another Earth? Red Rain has it's own Earth?

And I don't think that there should be multiple versions of Superman, Wonder Woman, etc. It makes them less unique, and confuses possible new readers. My friend was interested in getting into comics and the whole Countdown and Infinite Crisis stuff with multiple Supermen put him off.

[vinnie77]

Pros and cons ... A multiverse is great, but not when it's the scapegoat. Something doesn't work, then assign it to a parallel world. It came in handy in the original Wonder Woman run when they needed a Steve Trevor. But I prefer a single universe. Wasn't there an idea kicked around during the original crisis for 4-5 existing earths and that's that. It'd be nice to have an earth with the golden age stuff; an earth for the Fawcett materials; one for Quality; etc.

[Jon-El]

Bottom line!! Had the first Crisis not got rid of the original Multiverse and DC simply told great stories with new creative teams, we wouldn't be in this mess! Everybody has "their" Superman now. I loved the Byrne version but deep down I'm a Bronze age guy. Now you have a Birthright version and maybe another one? This isn't confusing now?

[TROUBLEZ]

Bottom line!! Had the first Crisis not got rid of the original Multiverse and DC simply told great stories with new creative teams, we wouldn't be in this mess! Everybody has "their" Superman now. I loved the Byrne version but deep down I'm a Bronze age guy. Now you have a Birthright version and maybe another one? This isn't confusing now?

yeah. It's cool from a sci-fi angle, going into parallel dimensions and seeing different versions of characters, but actually having a golden age, silver age, earth-prime, Kingdom Come, blahblahblaha etc would be confusing.

[Claret & Blue]

I agree with the need to do away with at least 45 of the 52 earths.

[jadehorde]

I think the 52 Earths is way overdoing it.

An Earth 1 (JLA) and Earth 2 (JSA) make sense, and an Anti-Matter Earth for the exact opposite of Earth 1 (Crime Syndicate of America) and maybe Earth-S (Captain Marvel is too big to share most powerful superhero role with Superman).

After that I don't see the point. Does the Kyptonian Batman from Elseworlds "Speeding Bullets," really need another Earth? Red Rain has it's own Earth?

And I don't think that there should be multiple versions of Superman, Wonder Woman, etc. It makes them less unique, and confuses possible new readers. My friend was interested in getting into comics and the whole Countdown and Infinite Crisis stuff with multiple Supermen put him off.

Yeah that was my problem with some of the worlds. I would have liked the major Elseworlds to be included, but the minor ones to just be amalgamated where clever or logical.

You want a Victorian Batman? Then combine it with other stories of anachronistic JLA's, etc.

No reason Red Sun couldn't have been combined with Liberty Files with some moderate jury rigging. Zod could still be the Kansas raised Kryptonian, and Kal-El the Russian....makes for an even more interesting confrontation in fact.