Angel: After The Fall (SPOILERS)

[saintsaucey]

Opening "It All Started With A Girl" It's unclear weather Angel is reffering to Cordi or Fred. But this is the opening sentence of Angel: After The Fall.

He narates the whole book for the most part, much like he did in the opening episode of angel. He is also rushing in to save three helpless victims. One who thinks he's kinda handsome Aiding him in his battle is none other than the giant dragon that he wanted to slay at the end of the series. it drops off one of his cars from the wolfram and hart garage and angel sends the civillians to an address. then he hops on the dragon and flys off.

Upon arriving back at the offices he is accosted by Burge lord of downtown la and his moron son. the moron son really wants to flay angel and wear his skin as a spawning coat. Wesley steps in and reminds Burge that he really doesn't want to piss off wolfram and hart. bruge leaves making wesley promise to keep angel inside for the night and if he steps another toe out of line wolfram and hart be damned he'll be taking angels head as recompense and his nice sturdy metal desk.

burge's son isn't happy and instead of killing angel he attempts to kill wes only to find out that wes isn't coporeal. after they leave wes asks how rounds were. angel tells him he rescued twelve and wes hopes he has enough room.

He happens to be conor, who along with gwen and nina are running a refuge. wes heals angel with some little creepy crawly and tells angel that he needs to start taking control cause if he doesn't then the wrong person might. cue one of the other demon lords a blue translucent being with a yellow globe in its chest his name is kr'ph he's got plenty of hot slave girls. Team Gunn Rushes into save the day and rescue the girls. Gun assures the girls that has all been a bad dream and that if they play their cards right it can turn downright erotic

angel does leave the office and gives burge his desk and a stake to the eye of burges son. he's declaring war.

there is another twist at the end but i'll let you find it out.

the series is pretty fracking cool. it really kicks ass. its gonna be so much fun seeing where they take them. hopefully there will be lots more cameos and returning stars and i just can't wait for the next issue. pick it up trust me you won't regret it

[shades of eternity]

man, I gotta start collecting this series, but I do have a question (you probably want to put it in spoilers tag).

I thought wesley was dead.

edit: oh wesley's gone ghost...nice

[saintsaucey]

yup wesleys a ghosty. like so many of the unfortunant souls who work for wolfram and hart his contract extended beyond the grave. and i put spoiler in the title so i wouldn't have to use spoiler tags. besides i didn't spoil the real surprise at the end of the issue

[edhopper]

I was going to buy this. Then I looked through it at my comic shop and just put it back. The art was that bad. It was so far below the level of a professional that I've seen guys at comic cons giving away their self-published books with better art. I mean they could have just gone to any portfolio review at a convention and picked up an artist who could do a better job.
With all the underemployed comic artist out there, why would they let a high profile property like this have art that's simply atrocious. Maybe they spent too much on the licensing to pay for a decent artist.
For $4 I expect some degree of professional art. It may be written well, but I had to pass.

I should add IMHO

[Samuraixsithlord]

Dman no Illyria. She must be ruling a section of L.A. along with Spike

[saintsaucey]

according to the solicits she and angel have a big throw down in issue three, and spike will be in it in the next issue. spikes been pretty busy since the series ended. read spike asylum, angel auld lang syne and spike shadow puppets

[mindcrime]

wow. thanks for the look ahead. cant wait to pick it up.

[Schuimend Mormel]

Opening "It All Started With A Girl" It's unclear weather Angel is reffering to Cordi or Fred. But this is the opening sentence of Angel: After The Fall.

He was probably referring to Buffy. It all started with Buffy. It all started when Whistler took Angel to see that sunshiney valley girl who would go on to become the Slayer. She's the very reason for and origin of Angel's crusade against evil.

[saintsaucey]

No its deffinantly either Cordy or Fred. he reffered to they killing her so im thinking fred not cordy

[Greg Anderson]

I'd say it was Fred. Remember, if you watch the last few episodes of Angel, he mentions how the death of Fred was what finally opened his eyes in the whole big picture and crap.

[Blueferret]

I was going to buy this. Then I looked through it at my comic shop and just put it back. The art was that bad. It was so far below the level of a professional that I've seen guys at comic cons giving away their self-published books with better art. I mean they could have just gone to any portfolio review at a convention and picked up an artist who could do a better job.
With all the underemployed comic artist out there, why would they let a high profile property like this have art that's simply atrocious. Maybe they spent too much on the licensing to pay for a decent artist.
For $4 I expect some degree of professional art. It may be written well, but I had to pass.

I should add IMHO

I agree about the art. If they had not said that it was Wesley sanding there I wouldn't have any clue it was him. Also, I think I understood the last panel but the art was really off.

[ddqfpluskick]

Wow......this issue was great especilly Nina's little problem with her curse. Anyway the end really took me by surprise. I thinking Angel had something to do with it. Yes I miss seeing Spike in this one. However I wondering what Angel is doing with a broad sword when the entire arsenal in the office. Grenade Launcher, full auto assult rifles, magic artifacts, serious fire power and you bring a sword.

[saintsaucey]

I agree about the art. If they had not said that it was Wesley sanding there I wouldn't have any clue it was him. Also, I think I understood the last panel but the art was really off.

hate to disagree but that looked exactly like wes in season three of buffy and season one of angel.

and

ddqfpluskick

If you think that Angel may have sired Gunn I would almost agree with you except for one thing. Gunn didn't seem as morose as daltan did when he showed up and hes the only vamp that had been sired after angel got his soul back. plus gunn was fighting vamps right before the season finale its very possible that they did it

[Crenshaw]

Saintsaucy, that's a fine point you make, but people that get turned die that day, get buried then come up. Granted, getting buried isn't a necessity, but there's definitely a layover. Stuff in whiteIf Gunn was sired in the campaign office, he'd have been a no show "that night in the alley." Considering that Spike's all in hiding and self-indulgant, I reckon it was him. As to why he wasn't all angsty and nutso like Lawson; Sam just say he didn't get any pleasure out of killing. Considering the way Gunn is presented to us, Evil Gunn would probably through a crew together just to kill them, all the babes, and the gladiators in the hopes that progressively more violent killing might make him feel something. That's my schtick.

[Crenshaw]

Wow......this issue was great especilly Nina's little problem with her curse. Anyway the end really took me by surprise. I thinking Angel had something to do with it. Yes I miss seeing Spike in this one. However I wondering what Angel is doing with a broad sword when the entire arsenal in the office. Grenade Launcher, full auto assult rifles, magic artifacts, serious fire power and you bring a sword.

also, yeah really. if wolfram & hart is supposedly prepared for everything, I want to see an exploding buzzsaw launcher.

[saintsaucey]

Saintsaucy, that's a fine point you make, but people that get turned die that day, get buried then come up. Granted, getting buried isn't a necessity, but there's definitely a layover. Stuff in whiteIf Gunn was sired in the campaign office, he'd have been a no show "that night in the alley." Considering that Spike's all in hiding and self-indulgant, I reckon it was him. As to why he wasn't all angsty and nutso like Lawson; Sam just say he didn't get any pleasure out of killing. Considering the way Gunn is presented to us, Evil Gunn would probably through a crew together just to kill them, all the babes, and the gladiators in the hopes that progressively more violent killing might make him feel something. That's my schtick.

oops its lawson not dalton my bad i sort of see your point but i guess will have to see in a month

[Schuimend Mormel]

No its deffinantly either Cordy or Fred. he reffered to they killing her so im thinking fred not cordy



I'd say it was Fred. Remember, if you watch the last few episodes of Angel, he mentions how the death of Fred was what finally opened his eyes in the whole big picture and crap.

Oy vey. Mormel fall down go boom! I stand corrected once again. :o

[IamtheRock3]

seem like old Angel made a mess of things

kind of like that Wesley still traps. These days breaking a deal with the devil a little to easy for my case, so it adds drama, that wesley still stuck

remember kids making deals with the prince of lies has consquences

So guess this get rid of the whole WORLD doesnt know about demons. Boy LA had a rough time, Possed by Jasmine, and then demon wars

[Blueferret]

Random question. Why is it Angel:After the Fall and not Season 6? LITG said it had to do with legal issue but I never could find out what they were.

[saintsaucey]

Random question. Why is it Angel:After the Fall and not Season 6? LITG said it had to do with legal issue but I never could find out what they were.
not sure really

[rexcase]

good, good stuff. the big reveal at the end was great, although if you read some of the interviews about where they had planned to take the show in the 6th season, it was a little spoiled. if they are sticking to that plan after all, it's possible we'll see the return of oz!

[NimNams]

Put me in the camp that didn't really dig the art. I just found it to be kinda rushed and messy.

I also don't enjoy where the story is going. For me, part of the appeal of shows like Buffy and Angel are seeing these supernatural elements in our own, recognisable world. When they throw L.A. into a post-apocalyptic hell, it stops being the same story to me. I see this more as just a typical moster story, which I never felt the Angel TV show to be.

[saintsaucey]

good, good stuff. the big reveal at the end was great, although if you read some of the interviews about where they had planned to take the show in the 6th season, it was a little spoiled. if they are sticking to that plan after all, it's possible we'll see the return of oz!

remind me where you heard that cause i heard the same rumor that they were gonna have oz come in and train nina and i don't remember where i i heard that

[rexcase]

i read it on whedonesque a while ago. there was the gunn thing, that thing about oz, and they also said that illyria would spend more time as fred and eventually would start to think that she was fred.
i can't wait to see if they stil use any of these concepts.
as for the art, i got used to it on spike:asylum and i quite like it now. it's a little murky at times, but it creates the perfect mood. just my opinion.

[sephirothskiller]

The Nina thing was cool, I hope that we see more interaction between Angel and her and the rest of the old crew in the future. I'm also liking this story alot, it seems to have a pretty good beat to it, at first I was a bit bothered by the fact that the fish talked like a 'Bro but then I realized that not making everything seem uber-dramatic helps the story from becoming high fantasy. The only thing that really bothers me is... The military is worried about Buffy and not the massacre of LA?

Where's Spike?

Illyria isn't friends with Angel anymore? Boo!

I really liked the art. Better than that god-awful Jeanty art which prompted me to drop Buffy.

[saintsaucey]

The Nina thing was cool, I hope that we see more interaction between Angel and her and the rest of the old crew in the future. I'm also liking this story alot, it seems to have a pretty good beat to it, at first I was a bit bothered by the fact that the fish talked like a 'Bro but then I realized that not making everything seem uber-dramatic helps the story from becoming high fantasy. The only thing that really bothers me is... The military is worried about Buffy and not the massacre of LA?

Where's Spike?

Illyria isn't friends with Angel anymore? Boo!

I really liked the art. Better than that god-awful Jeanty art which prompted me to drop Buffy.

buffy's art is better, spike will be coming in either next issue or the one after, illeria was never friends with angel she tollerated him, buffys season eight takes place durring angel season five so technically this hasn't happened yet in their reality hopefully it will all tie intogether but i doubt it with it being apposing companies

[sephirothskiller]

buffy's art is better,

I've heard quite a few people express the Jeanty love, but no one has ever qualified for what specific reason they actually like it. Can someone do this for me?

Is it the horrible lack of detail whenever the characters aren't getting close up? The generic look of all the faces? The way Buffy looks nothing like SMG? The lack of any nuance in the conveyance of emotion? What do you people like!??

[ddqfpluskick]

Well who knows waht demons occupy the house of the senate I mean no one moved in on the eternal night situation. I get the feeling a quarintine is in effect for LA as of the moment.

As for the Gunn thing i was said he wouldn't last ten minutes in a fight so it stand to reason either Angel or Spike sired him to keep him in the game.

As for Wes......do ghost get wardrobes? Anyway I'm never a big critic on art work. I read reallife so artwork takes a back seat to story and dialogue.

[GRANT!]

Opening "It All Started With A Girl" It's unclear weather Angel is reffering to Cordi or Fred. But this is the opening sentence of Angel: After The Fall.

I thought he was referring to the girl (the blonde one who got killed by that vampire represented by Wolfram and Hart) in the very first Angel episode.

Either way. It's Angel it's always starts with a girl.

Didn't like this book too much. Some cool ideas but the art was pretty bad.

[GRANT!]

I've heard quite a few people express the Jeanty love, but no one has ever qualified for what specific reason they actually like it. Can someone do this for me?

Is it the horrible lack of detail whenever the characters aren't getting close up? The generic look of all the faces? The way Buffy looks nothing like SMG? The lack of any nuance in the conveyance of emotion? What do you people like!??

The faces need work but his storytelling is top notch. Everything looks too muddy in the Angel book. Kid of hard to tell what's going on in a few panels.

[mindcrime]

well, just went on my weekly book run & picked up angel: after the fall #1. have to say i agree with most of you, the art work could be better. i am really likeing the story though. cant wait for #2.

[eon001]

I was going to buy this. Then I looked through it at my comic shop and just put it back. The art was that bad. It was so far below the level of a professional that I've seen guys at comic cons giving away their self-published books with better art. I mean they could have just gone to any portfolio review at a convention and picked up an artist who could do a better job.
With all the underemployed comic artist out there, why would they let a high profile property like this have art that's simply atrocious. Maybe they spent too much on the licensing to pay for a decent artist.
For $4 I expect some degree of professional art. It may be written well, but I had to pass.

I should add IMHO

I feel the same when I read the online Heroes comics on the official nbc website. Some of the stories look so rushed. I'm a freelance illustrators, and I'ld do a better job for free. And I know plenty of sh1t hot artist that would do the same thing for the exposure. It's not hard to find them there all over myspace and the net so why do they settle for this sub standard talent!?

[Deathstroke]

I thought the story was okay but the art was below average.

[ZombieHavoc]

No its deffinantly either Cordy or Fred. he reffered to they killing her so im thinking fred not cordy

Maybe, but like the fella who posted before you, I also think he's referring to Buffy, at least partially. "It all started with a girl..." is directly from the first episode of Angel, wherein he is definitely talking about Buffy.

Though, in the Whedonverse (and I know Lynch isn't an established Whedon writer, but still) most everything is manifold. So, the line could be referring to Buffy, Fred, and Cordelia. And even Darla, you know. Because it really all started with Darla.

But really, I think it was just a throwback to the first episode.

And I thoroughly enjoyed the first issue (not as much as Buffy...but I mean, Joss? BKV? You can't beat those guys). I look forward to seeing what's in store.

[Blueferret]

As for the Gunn thing i was said he wouldn't last ten minutes in a fight so it stand to reason either Angel or Spike sired him to keep him in the game.

.

That doesn't make sense. If they sired him, they can't control him. When someone is sired, they die and a demon takes their place. There might be some way around it though.

[mindcrime]

That doesn't make sense. If they sired him, they can't control him. When someone is sired, they die and a demon takes their place. There might be some way around it though.



i could see angel telling gunn "you start killing innocents, ill have to kill you". wouldnt be the 1st time he has done that.

[Johnny_Luck]

If Harmony shows up I'm in otherwise not caring just yet.

[drwho]

Didn't read this, but do they even talk about the series finale, or do they just ignore that?

[saintsaucey]

If Harmony shows up I'm in otherwise not caring just yet.

Sometimes web boards frustrate the hell out of me.

I came here because I love Gail's work. I read Tony Bedards board for the same reason.

But freakin' gawd people its not about having a negative comment. Its about legitimate criticism.

I don't want to hear another negative voice from someone that hasn't read the damn issue.

I don't want to post my excitement just for some a-hole to write they passed up the issue entirely with no reason.

Gail made any entry that I can't find now and I wanted to post that I don't comment as much as I read. Some of you are amazing people and some of you are just hateful bitches. I have to mentally set some of you to ignore comments.

If you don't like the topic or the issue or the comment, don't just throw a comment in there to be hateful or to be contrary.

JohnnyYou Realize this is about you don't you. If you aren't caring just yet then stay the fuck out of my thread

[Angelus II]

He was probably referring to Buffy. It all started with Buffy. It all started when Whistler took Angel to see that sunshiney valley girl who would go on to become the Slayer. She's the very reason for and origin of Angel's crusade against evil.

You are wrong. It's Fred. Cuz he went on to say that Wolfram & Hart killed her.

It all started with a girl.
Fred
I joined a corporation that was quite literally, evil incarnate. I thought I could channel their resources into something postive.
Angel took over Wolfram & Hart
I didn't change them. They changed me
Angel became a member of the circle
Then they killed her.
Fred died when Illyria took over her body
I took a stand.
Angel attacked members of the circle
That was a while ago. And ever since then...I've been trying to make up for it.
Now Angel is fighting the demon army that the senior partners had sent

[Angelus II]

As for the Gunn thing i was said he wouldn't last ten minutes in a fight so it stand to reason either Angel or Spike sired him to keep him in the game.


I was thinking he came to alley as a vampire. Got in a fight with a vamp before hand. At the end of season 5, Spike made a remark to Gunn saying "shouldn't you be wearing that in the inside", regarding to Gunn's boodly shirt.

[chickrockguitar]

FINALLY got my issue today, lol.

Not liking it at all. AT ALL. *sigh* I don't like the art, its really bad, for such a hyped up thing. And, I'm not liking the story either... LA as a kind of hell? No.

There was a hell of a lot of Fanfic and online Season 6's, after S5 ended. And most of the ideas people had where much better than this IMHO.

However, I'll feel like an "Angel Traitor" if I don't pick up #2, lol. As I was a massive, massive fan of the show. So, I'll give it a go for a while, I guess.

I was thinking he came to alley as a vampire. Got in a fight with a vamp before hand. At the end of season 5, Spike made a remark to Gunn saying "shouldn't you be wearing that in the inside", regarding to Gunn's boodly shirt.That's a seriously good theory! Athough, I'm guessing Angel or Spike, even Illyria would have said somthing.

[Ryan Day]

You are wrong. It's Fred. Cuz he went on to say that Wolfram & Hart killed her.

But Wolfram & Hart didn't kill Fred. A couple people who worked there were involved, but W&H didn't want Illyria around at all - she was too powerful and unpredictable.

[Angelus II]

But Wolfram & Hart didn't kill Fred. A couple people who worked there were involved, but W&H didn't want Illyria around at all - she was too powerful and unpredictable.

You misunderstood the show than. Wolfram & Hart sent the Illyria's tomb, which killed Fred and Illyria took over her body. Wes, Gunn, and Spike thought she was too powerful and unpredictable, not the senior partners. They work with all race of demons--Illyria was just a tool.

But unseen by the senior partners, Illyria join Angel's side. Also, Angel had his son, Connor attacked the circle.

These two reasons are why the senior partners sent a demon army.


Those people wasn't worker. They just delivering the tomb to Wolfram & Hart. They had nothing to do with it.

[Angelus II]

I re-read the comic and watched some Angel episodes. And I figure out who sired Gunn. No, it not Angel nor Spike.

First a little history lesson.

In season 2, Darla came back to life as a human, with the same illness she had back in the late 1600's. She went to Angel in hope he will sire her back into a vamp, saving her from her illness. Angel refused to sire her.

On Buffy the vampire slayer, Spike was gaving a chip in him head so he won't hurt humans. I pretty sure the chip is still in him.

Now for who sired Gunn.
On page 22 of issue #1, Gunn made a remark.

You may have been togher before I joined, but I trained you. Plus I coordinated the outfits.

Gunn's new hunting crew are vamps. On page 26, Gunn's crew are writing something on the walls with blood.

[Ryan Day]

You misunderstood the show than. Wolfram & Hart sent the Illyria's tomb, which killed Fred and Illyria took over her body. Wes, Gunn, and Spike thought she was too powerful and unpredictable, not the senior partners. They work with all race of demons--Illyria was just a tool.

Watch Shells again. Wolfram & Hart had put a lock on Illyria's temple so she couldn't get in, and Knox had to "pick the lock". There's no evidence the senior partners were involved in resurrecting Illyria - if it was part of their plan, why did they leave it all to Knox and the doctor? It was all Knox's idea - he spoke of worshipping Illyria as a child. Illyria never had any contact with the senior partners or their liason before she started helping Angel.

Also, remember that part of Angel's scheme to infiltrate the Circle of the Black Thorn was convincing others that he had sacrificed Fred. That would be a useless bluff if Wolfram & Hart had masterminded the whole thing.

On Buffy the vampire slayer, Spike was gaving a chip in him head so he won't hurt humans. I pretty sure the chip is still in him.

The chip was removed in season 7, in The Killer In Me.

[Johnny_Luck]

JohnnyYou Realize this is about you don't you. If you aren't caring just yet then stay the fuck out of my thread

Nope its not, He said without Legit criticism, I never posted something negitive without a good legit reason behind it.

[Johnny_Luck]

JohnnyYou Realize this is about you don't you. If you aren't caring just yet then stay the fuck out of my thread

Nope its not, He said without Legit criticism, I never posted something negative without a good legit reason behind it.

Though I pretty sure there tons of threads about how not be be an ahole for the sake it like you did there.

and if you wanted a thread just for yourself where you couldn't handle comments you didn't like you should have posted it on your blog or myspace page.

and I find it funny you don't flip out like a child about comments you don't like until I come along even though plenty of previous people knocked the story and the art of this book before I came along.

Instead of me going on about those points since they were already pointed out I just said that if Harmony doesn't come along I am not interested, maybe I should have hit them again just so you could actually have a bigger reason to be angry with me even if I make valid points.


Though I think maybe you need to take a chill pill.

P.S. I loved Angel, season 5 most of all but some of the stuff in the book is too silly, Wesley should have stayed dead and Buffys book is so much better its not even funny.

[Angelus II]

Watch Shells again. Wolfram & Hart had put a lock on Illyria's temple so she couldn't get in, and Knox had to "pick the lock". There's no evidence the senior partners were involved in resurrecting Illyria - if it was part of their plan, why did they leave it all to Knox and the doctor? It was all Knox's idea - he spoke of worshipping Illyria as a child. Illyria never had any contact with the senior partners or their liason before she started helping Angel.

Also, remember that part of Angel's scheme to infiltrate the Circle of the Black Thorn was convincing others that he had sacrificed Fred. That would be a useless bluff if Wolfram & Hart had masterminded the whole thing.

Episode Title: A Hole In The World


WB Synopsis: WRITTEN AND DIRECTED BY JOSS WHEDON -- When Fred (Amy Acker) opens up an ancient sarcophagus that was anonymously sent to her, she is infected by a mysterious parasitic demon called Illyria. Angel (David Boreanaz) and Spike (James Marsters) learn that Illyria is an ancient demon who existed before recorded time, and they must race to return her to an ancient demon burial ground before she kills Fred and thousands of other innocent victims.


The sarcophagus was sent by Wolfram & Hart. It hint that in the comic.

Then they killed her

It didn't say then he killed her.




The chip was removed in season 7, in The Killer In Me.

Didn't Spike get a replacement chip in that episode because his old chip was misfiring?

The Killer in Me 7ABB13 Feb. 04, 2003
Courtesy of a bitter Amy, Willow turns into Warren after kissing Kennedy; Buffy contacts the government to get help with Spike's misfiring chip.

[Johnny_Luck]

Didn't Spike get a replacement chip in that episode because his old chip was misfiring?

No Buffy had it taken out, she felt he was safe now.

Giles had a blow out with her afterwards for it and tried to help the principal kill Spike. He didn't have the chip in season 5, thank god.

[Crowley]

No Buffy had it taken out, she felt he was safe now.

Giles had a blow out with her afterwards for it and tried to help the principal kill Spike. He didn't have the chip in season 5, thank god.

No he had the chip from season 4 until it was removed in Season 7.

[Ryan Day]

I think he means Angel Season 5.

[Crowley]

Ah. My mistake, then.

[Johnny_Luck]

No he had the chip from season 4 until it was removed in Season 7.

If I saying he got it removed in an episode from season 7 in the first part of the sentence then you can probably bet I don't think he lost it before season 5 of Buffy. The person above kept saying he had it put back and had it during season 5 of angel I was saying that wasn't the case at all.

[Angelus II]

If I saying he got it removed in an episode from season 7 in the first part of the sentence then you can probably bet I don't think he lost it before season 5 of Buffy. The person above kept saying he had it put back and had it during season 5 of angel I was saying that wasn't the case at all.Correction:I didn't say he had it on season 5 of Angel, I said I wasn't sure if he still got the chip.

No Buffy had it taken out, she felt he was safe now.

Giles had a blow out with her afterwards for it and tried to help the principal kill Spike. He didn't have the chip in season 5, thank god.

Now that's what I'm looking for, details.




I still think one of the member of Gunn's "new" crew sired him. They're the only ones near him. And if you notice the vamp who sired the other vamp stay with that vamp. Darla sired Angelus, they stay together for a while.
The same thing with Dru and Spike. If Spike sired Gunn he would've been far from him. And I didn't see Spike anywhere near Gunn in the 1st issue.


But Wolfram & Hart didn't kill Fred. A couple people who worked there were involved, but W&H didn't want Illyria around at all - she was too powerful and unpredictable.
Issue #1, page 15

Angel: gotta hand it to them. Wolfram & Hart is prepared for anything. Most likely because they're also the cause of it.

[KJS1982]

I still think one of the member of Gunn's "new" crew sired him. They're the only ones near him. And if you notice the vamp who sired the other vamp stay with that vamp. Darla sired Angelus, they stay together for a while.
The same thing with Dru and Spike. If Spike sired Gunn he would've been far from him. And I didn't see Spike anywhere near Gunn in the 1st issue.

Doesn't really mean anything.

Loads of vamps in the Buffyverse were sired and then left for dead. Such as the hundreds that rose out of graves in the TV episodes.

And Spike/Angel may have sired him to keep him alive, but why would Gunn have stayed with them based on the fact that he would now be evil and they aren't?

Also, I'm confused as to why/how Gunn would ever have been hanging around with vamps after that battle, given that he was dying. It had to either be Angel, Spike or one of those that he killed in the Senator's office - the last suggestion makes no sense, because he wouldn't have been sired and then gone to help team Angel, so I'm making an educated guess that it had to be one of either Angel or Spike.

[Crowley]

If I saying he got it removed in an episode from season 7 in the first part of the sentence then you can probably bet I don't think he lost it before season 5 of Buffy. The person above kept saying he had it put back and had it during season 5 of angel I was saying that wasn't the case at all.
Do you understand how this:

No Buffy had it taken out, she felt he was safe now.

Giles had a blow out with her afterwards for it and tried to help the principal kill Spike. He didn't have the chip in season 5, thank god.

grammatically, could lead me to misunderstand?

Typically in a paragraph... you name subjects before you change them.

[Angelus II]

Doesn't really mean anything.

Loads of vamps in the Buffyverse were sired and then left for dead. Such as the hundreds that rose out of graves in the TV episodes.

And Spike/Angel may have sired him to keep him alive,It wasn't Angel. He refused to sire Darla back into a vamp when she was dying from the same illness she got in the late 1600's. Angel wouldn't sire anyone for any reason. but why would Gunn have stayed with them based on the fact that he would now be evil and they aren't? um, because they aren't the one who sired him. Why would vamp Gunn hang out with normal humans and not killed them, answer:because they're all vamps.
Also, I'm confused as to why/how Gunn would ever have been hanging around with vamps after that battle, given that he was dying. It had to either be Angel, Spike or one of those that he killed in the Senator's office - the last suggestion makes no sense, because he wouldn't have been sired and then gone to help team Angel, so I'm making an educated guess that it had to be one of either Angel or Spike.

Gunn got attacked by vamps beforehand. Read the script. It never said that Gunn killed ALL those vamps in the Senator's office. That happen before the ally thing. He wasn't dying, he was become a vamp. So. It can't be Angel or Spike. They would already at the ally before Gunn.

Angel Episode #110 "Not Fade Away" script
http://www.twiztv.com/scripts/angel/season5/angel-522.htm

[KJS1982]

It wasn't Angel. He refused to sire Darla back into a vamp when she was dying from the same illness she got in the late 1600's. Angel wouldn't sire anyone for any reason.

Yeah, but Angel didn't require her to stay alive to fight alongside him in the ultimate battle of his entire life.

Or perhaps Gunn survived the battle, but was dying afterwards, so one of them sired him as a kind of "reward", or simply felt he was worthy of life after such a brave fight.

Odds are on them siring him to keep him alive in the hope of keeping him under control until they could get him ensouled in some way. It didn't work out and he went out on his own.

um, because they aren't the one who sired him. Why would vamp Gunn hang out with normal humans and not killed them, answer:because they're all vamps.

That doesn't answer my question. You've either worded it completely wrong or misread/misinterpreted what I was getting at.

Gunn got attacked by vamps beforehand. Read the script. It never said that Gunn killed ALL those vamps in the Senator's office. That happen before the ally thing. He wasn't dying, he was become a vamp. So. It can't be Angel or Spike. They would already at the ally before Gunn.

Quote Illyria, who can sense such things;

"You're fading. You'll last 10 minutes at best."

Hence he was dying.

She would know if he was turning.

Angel Episode #110 "Not Fade Away" script
http://www.twiztv.com/scripts/angel/season5/angel-522.htm

As I've watched the episode 100 times, I don't think I'll bother.

And it doesn't suggest anything of Gunn being sired beforehand. As far as we're meant to know, Gunn killed all of the vamps in the Senator's office ("My game was tight") and suffered mortal wounds in the process. The fatal wound is clearly in his stomach.

Does anyone see a wound on his neck at that point? Nope. Does he have blood around his mouth? Nope (Just to make sure, I have just watched the scene again on DVD and paused it on a closeup of Gunn's face and neck at the scene. There is no evidence whatsoever of him being bitten, or having drank blood himself. I even brightened up a darkened area of his neck that could arguably have been hiding a wound - the skin is unblemished).

In order for Gunn to have been turning into a vamp in the alley, he would have to have been bitten hours before. In the Buffyverse you don't become a vamp immediately. Look at all the ones that had been buried i.e. had funerals.

Odds are on either Angel or Spike siring him, or him being sired during the final battle or in the aftermath, having somehow survived. He may also have been sired in the hell that L.A. had become. I would imagine it was a vampire haven at that point.

[Angelus II]

Yeah, but Angel didn't require her to stay alive to fight alongside him in the ultimate battle of his entire life.

Or perhaps Gunn survived the battle, but was dying afterwards, so one of them sired him as a kind of "reward", or simply felt he was worthy of life after such a brave fight.

Odds are on them siring him to keep him alive in the hope of keeping him under control until they could get him ensouled in some way. It didn't work out and he went out on his own.

That make no sense. Why would Angel and Spike sired Gunn, that one more thing they got to fight.



That doesn't answer my question. You've either worded it completely wrong or misread/misinterpreted what I was getting at.



Quote Illyria, who can sense such things;

"You're fading. You'll last 10 minutes at best."

Hence he was dying.

She would know if he was turning.


As I've watched the episode 100 times, I don't think I'll bother.

And it doesn't suggest anything of Gunn being sired beforehand. As far as we're meant to know, Gunn killed all of the vamps in the Senator's office ("My game was tight") and suffered mortal wounds in the process. The fatal wound is clearly in his stomach. I got some inside new. They were planning on Gunn becoming a vamp for a very long time. I also heard that Spike is thinking about changing sides. So, if Gunn is still fighting the demons and Spike thinking about working with the demons, it appear that Spike didn't sired Gunn.

Does anyone see a wound on his neck at that point? Nope. Does he have blood around his mouth? Nope (Just to make sure, I have just watched the scene again on DVD and paused it on a closeup of Gunn's face and neck at the scene. There is no evidence whatsoever of him being bitten, or having drank blood himself. I even brightened up a darkened area of his neck that could arguably have been hiding a wound - the skin is unblemished).
Oh my god. That statement was just weak. You really think they going to show proof of that back then.

In order for Gunn to have been turning into a vamp in the alley, he would have to have been bitten hours before. In the Buffyverse you don't become a vamp immediately. Look at all the ones that had been buried i.e. had funerals.You really think a normal dying Gunn would make it from the Senator's office to the ally without end up dead on a sidewalk. Gunn was sired before the ally. He was at the Senator's office for some time. Got sired, fall, then woke back up and went to the ally. It fit. Unlike your reason. Yeah, like Angel going to sire Gunn, he was about to attack a demon when the show end. It really doesn't fit. If he got sired in the ally a demon would just killed his helpless body. Really dosen't fit.

Odds are on either Angel or Spike siring him, or him being sired during the final battle or in the aftermath, having somehow survived. He may also have been sired in the hell that L.A. had become. I would imagine it was a vampire haven at that point.
It not Angel or Spike, you wanna bet on that.

Moving on.....to anyone know the release date for issue #2. tfaw.com say it come out on December 19, 2007. But for issue #1 they say it was come out on November 28, 2007 then change the date to November 21, 2007 a few day before the issue came out. So. Did anyone heard of any release date besided December 19, 2007.

[KJS1982]

You just said they were planning on making Gunn a vamp for some time, then said that my reasoning was weak in saying that he didn't have neck wounds. Surely they would if that was the case.

And I already knew that, it's not "inside news", incidentally. I saw an Amy Acker interview a couple of years ago where she stated it. And Joss. Gunn was going to be a villain in the season 6 TV series, had it been aired.

I'm not saying Angel sired him during the fight as in made him turn into a vamp there and then. I'm saying he may have bitten him after Gunn somehow survived that fight to prolong his life in the long run, in the hope that he could remain an ally in the future.

And yes, I believe he could have made it from the office to the alley. In the same way he made it through the final battle when Illyria said he had 10 minutes left to live.

And I reiterate, given that Illyria can sense what kind of being is in her presence, she didn't sense anything other than the fact he was dying.

She knew Spike was a "half breed", she knew Wesley was dying, and she knew Gunn was dying.

And you really think Gunn wouldn't have mentioned something? If he was becoming the very thing he despised most in the world? He would, at the very least, have told them. My guess is that he would actually ask to be killed if he knew.

I also question why on Earth a fully conscious Gunn would voluntarily suck a vampire's blood, which he would need to do to be turned. Simple fact is he wouldn't. He'd need to be practically unconscious to do that. There is no way he drank a vampire's blood and then ran back to his friends. It makes no sense.

[Stagier]

And if you notice the vamp who sired the other vamp stay with that vamp. Darla sired Angelus, they stay together for a while.
The same thing with Dru and Spike.


didn't spike EARLY on say that angel sired him? but then i remember the alley with dru. retcon?

raising an eye brow to how they are going to plausibly explain gunn the vamp. i wish they knew what to do with him. They kill cordy cause her character ran the gamet, but keep gunn and change his character per season.

I WANT CORDY BACK! they even killed her on veronica mars! dammit!

[KJS1982]

Spike did say that yeah (meaning Angelus). He called him his "Yoda".

[Angelus II]

You just said they were planning on making Gunn a vamp for some time, then said that my reasoning was weak in saying that he didn't have neck wounds. Surely they would if that was the case.
Because it was. They not going to show vampire holes on Gunn's neck unless he become a vampire in that episode. They want to shock the fans. So, just because Gunn didn't had any holes on his neck on the final show dosen't mean he turning into a vampire afterwards. Like I said it a weak reason. And I just heard about the planning of Gunn becoming a vampire a few week before issue #1 came out. So it was old new just being told for the first time.

And I already knew that, it's not "inside news", incidentally. I saw an Amy Acker interview a couple of years ago where she stated it. And Joss. Gunn was going to be a villain in the season 6 TV series, had it been aired. That's what I'm talking about. It inside news because it came from a actor/actress or someone working on the project. If it didn't come from them it isn't inside news.

I'm not saying Angel sired him during the fight as in made him turn into a vamp there and then. I'm saying he may have bitten him after Gunn somehow survived that fight to prolong his life in the long run, in the hope that he could remain an ally in the future. Yeah, Angel going to stop battling evil so he can create a new evil, an evil vampire called Gunn. I don't see it happen due to the fact that he didn't sired Darla back into a vampire when Wolfram & Hart brought her back as a human dying from the same illness she had in the 1600s.

And yes, I believe he could have made it from the office to the alley. In the same way he made it through the final battle when Illyria said he had 10 minutes left to live.

And I reiterate, given that Illyria can sense what kind of being is in her presence, she didn't sense anything other than the fact he was dying.

She knew Spike was a "half breed", she knew Wesley was dying, and she knew Gunn was dying. She was talking about Gunn's heartbeat, it was fading away. Vampires don't have a heartbeat. And if Gunn got a stomach wound he would be in a wheelchair like Wes was that time he got a stomach wound. That mean he couldn't have made it from the the office to the alley if he was a normal human.

And you really think Gunn wouldn't have mentioned something? If he was becoming the very thing he despised most in the world? He would, at the very least, have told them. My guess is that he would actually ask to be killed if he knew. That my point. That why he went to Angel and acted like he was normal because he believe he was...normal. But he isn't.
And one more point, why would Gunn let Angel or Spike turn him into something he hate. He would kill them if they try.

I also question why on Earth a fully conscious Gunn would voluntarily suck a vampire's blood, which he would need to do to be turned. Simple fact is he wouldn't. He'd need to be practically unconscious to do that. There is no way he drank a vampire's blood and then ran back to his friends. It makes no sense.The vampire force it down his throat. You think every vamp that be sired suck the vampire blood willingly.


didn't spike EARLY on say that angel sired him? but then i remember the alley with dru. retcon?


Angel didn't sired Spike.


The Master sired Darla
Darla sired Angelus and Dru
Dru sired Spike
Spike sired Harmony
Dru sired Darla back into a vampire

Don't see when Spike sired Angelus. Angelus was a vampire longer than Spike was. Angelus became a vampire in the 1700s, Spike became a vamp in the 1800s. I don't see than Spike would sired Angelus.

Maybe he was talking about that he learn from Angelus. In the 1800's Spike was a poet named Willam, not so evil. Over the years he dye his hair and drop doing poems and became evil thanks to Angelus.

[KJS1982]

Mate, it's all speculation. I'm just going by the evidence I've seen.

There is no point in arguing about it - it's just a comic! Let's just see what happens and enjoy it as it unfolds.

[Angelus II]

Some new artwork. Angel and Illyria showdown
http://www.slayaliveforums.proboards50.com/index.cgi?board=angelseason6&action=display&thread=1195753838



Angel: After the Fall #4


As the first chapter in this epic tale reaches its penultimate point, Angel issues a challenge to someone—a lot of someones, actually—that he can’t possibly win. Meanwhile, Spike considers changing sides as this hellish new status quo presents some opportunities he can’t pass up. And we promise a shock ending more explosive than even those of the first three issues. Joss Whedon, Brian Lynch and Franco Urru continue their march through a Los Angeles truly gone to hell.
Andrew Robinson comes aboard to provide a special painted cover, too!



ADDED:12/16/07
Gunn and the Fish
http://www.idwpublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=40731#40731

[Vulgar]

I want to like this series, I really do. I loved the show. Just something about it just isn't clicking with me yet. Hopefully it will by the end of the arc. If LA's in hell does that mean the world knows about vampires, demons, and magic?

[Angelus II]

First printing sold out...third printing on the way

http://www.idwpublishing.com/news/pressreleases/angel-atf.shtml

check out the new covers

[CrossoverManiac]

Is it possible that, during the fight, Gunn got infected by vampire blood that seeped into his wounds? It maybe possible to be sired by mixing blood directly into the blood stream, and not just through ingestion through the mouth. It's only a theory.

[mindcrime]

Is it possible that, during the fight, Gunn got infected by vampire blood that seeped into his wounds? It maybe possible to be sired by mixing blood directly into the blood stream, and not just through ingestion through the mouth. It's only a theory.




i dont think that could happen, because the vamp has to drink your blood, & then you have too drink thiers. i think angel or spike turned him, cause gunn was going to die in that alley fight, & they didnt want to lose him. if thats the case, i could also see angel warning him, that if he gets out of hand, angel will have to stop him. (wouldnt be the 1st time angel's done that, see the why we fight episode).

[Angelus II]

i dont think that could happen, because the vamp has to drink your blood, & then you have too drink thiers. i think angel or spike turned him, cause gunn was going to die in that alley fight, & they didnt want to lose him. if thats the case, i could also see angel warning him, that if he gets out of hand, angel will have to stop him. (wouldnt be the 1st time angel's done that, see the why we fight episode).

It was in issue #2. Gunn got sired by some others vampires. Not Angel or Spike. I was right.

There the link to issue #2

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=202328

[Holacik]

Because it was. They not going to show vampire holes on Gunn's neck unless he become a vampire in that episode. They want to shock the fans. So, just because Gunn didn't had any holes on his neck on the final show dosen't mean he turning into a vampire afterwards. Like I said it a weak reason. And I just heard about the planning of Gunn becoming a vampire a few week before issue #1 came out. So it was old new just being told for the first time.

That's what I'm talking about. It inside news because it came from a actor/actress or someone working on the project. If it didn't come from them it isn't inside news.

Yeah, Angel going to stop battling evil so he can create a new evil, an evil vampire called Gunn. I don't see it happen due to the fact that he didn't sired Darla back into a vampire when Wolfram & Hart brought her back as a human dying from the same illness she had in the 1600s.

She was talking about Gunn's heartbeat, it was fading away. Vampires don't have a heartbeat. And if Gunn got a stomach wound he would be in a wheelchair like Wes was that time he got a stomach wound. That mean he couldn't have made it from the the office to the alley if he was a normal human.

That my point. That why he went to Angel and acted like he was normal because he believe he was...normal. But he isn't.
And one more point, why would Gunn let Angel or Spike turn him into something he hate. He would kill them if they try.

The vampire force it down his throat. You think every vamp that be sired suck the vampire blood willingly.



Angel didn't sired Spike.


The Master sired Darla
Darla sired Angelus and Dru
Dru sired Spike
Spike sired Harmony
Dru sired Darla back into a vampire

Don't see when Spike sired Angelus. Angelus was a vampire longer than Spike was. Angelus became a vampire in the 1700s, Spike became a vamp in the 1800s. I don't see than Spike would sired Angelus.

Maybe he was talking about that he learn from Angelus. In the 1800's Spike was a poet named Willam, not so evil. Over the years he dye his hair and drop doing poems and became evil thanks to Angelus.

In season 2 of Buffy, Angel says that he sired Spike but they change that in Angel and say that Dru sired him. Spike didn't sire Harmony.

[Holacik]

It was in issue #2. Gunn got sired by some others vampires. Not Angel or Spike. I was right.

There the link to issue #2

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=202328

No you were wrong, as it happened in the final battle and not in the senator's office. Which should have been obvious as everything that happened in 'Not fade away' happened during the same night, there was no where near enough time for Gunn to come back as a vamp.

[KJS1982]

It was in issue #2. Gunn got sired by some others vampires. Not Angel or Spike. I was right.


Haha! How dare you? I was happy to keep quiet after I tried to tone our little debate down, but what you just said there was ridiculous.

You only had one argument - that Gunn was turned before the final battle.

I had 2 arguments. 1 was that Angel or Spike sired him, the other was that he was turned during or after the battle, or in L.A. by vamps lurking in the hell it had become. See below.

Odds are on either Angel or Spike siring him, or him being sired during the final battle or in the aftermath, having somehow survived. He may also have been sired in the hell that L.A. had become. I would imagine it was a vampire haven at that point.

So, basically, your guess was totally wrong, whereas one of my 2 possible guesses was 100% correct.

The main point being that he wasn't sired before the battle, exactly like I said. Something you were adamant wasn't the case. Turns out you were wrong.

I can't even begin to imagine how you interpreted that as you being "right".

[saintsaucey]

btw for those that said a fully conscience gunn would never drink, angel him self admited you can't really fight it when darla was resired by dru

[Spider69]

oh nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo\\



didnt log out

[Flawless P]

In season 2 of Buffy, Angel says that he sired Spike but they change that in Angel and say that Dru sired him. Spike didn't sire Harmony.
Angel never says anything about sireing spike....

Spike says that Angel was his sire...."his yoda" The way that was explained was that Dru could turn him but she wasnt even close to sane enough to teach him the ropes of vampirism. Which is why there are so many flash backs of spike and angel hanging out

[CrossoverManiac]

In season 2 of Buffy, Angel says that he sired Spike but they change that in Angel and say that Dru sired him. Spike didn't sire Harmony.

Siring can also mean a specific bloodline. Because Angelus sired Drusilla and Drusilla sired Spike, it could be said Angelus is Spike's sire or, more specifically, his grandsire. And in a sense, all of them were sired by the Master.

[Angelus II]

Haha! How dare you? I was happy to keep quiet after I tried to tone our little debate down, but what you just said there was ridiculous.

You only had one argument - that Gunn was turned before the final battle.

I had 2 arguments. 1 was that Angel or Spike sired him, the other was that he was turned during or after the battle, or in L.A. by vamps lurking in the hell it had become. See below.



So, basically, your guess was totally wrong, whereas one of my 2 possible guesses was 100% correct.

The main point being that he wasn't sired before the battle, exactly like I said. Something you were adamant wasn't the case. Turns out you were wrong.

I can't even begin to imagine how you interpreted that as you being "right".
No, I was right...on my part. I only say that Angel or Spike didn't sired Gunn. Then I listed some reason why. The debate was over who sired Gunn, not where. So, you aren't right since that wasn't the dabate over where Gunn was sired. I only was debating over who sired Gunn. Plus we got a new thread for ANGEL: After the Fall #2, so pay attetion.

[Angelus II]

In season 2 of Buffy, Angel says that he sired Spike but they change that in Angel and say that Dru sired him. Spike didn't sire Harmony.
They didn't change anything. They just worded it to sound like Angelus sired Spike. Angelus taught Spike how to be be evil. Spike called Angelus/Angel his Yoda. The story ever changed. You are just misunderstand it.

[Angelus II]

No you were wrong, as it happened in the final battle and not in the senator's office. Which should have been obvious as everything that happened in 'Not fade away' happened during the same night, there was no where near enough time for Gunn to come back as a vamp.
I ever say it happen in the Senator's office, I just use that as a guide. Gunn wasn't sired by Angel or Spike like ya guys say he was. That's was the debate, not where....who sired Gunn? And I was right...I'm was the only one who say it wasn't Angel or Spike. If you know anything about ANGEL you would know that he wouldn't do that.

And the fact that only you guys are using the old ANGEL:After the Fall thread when a new one for issue #2 has been up just so ya guys are in denial.

Face it, ya guys loss the "who sired Gunn" debate.
ciao

[Holacik]

I ever say it happen in the Senator's office, I just use that as a guide. Gunn wasn't sired by Angel or Spike like ya guys say he was. That's was the debate, not where....who sired Gunn? And I was right...I'm was the only one who say it wasn't Angel or Spike. If you know anything about ANGEL you would know that he wouldn't do that.

And the fact that only you guys are using the old ANGEL:After the Fall thread when a new one for issue #2 has been up just so ya guys are in denial.

Face it, ya guys loss the "who sired Gunn" debate.
ciao

Ha read your own posts.




Gunn got attacked by vamps beforehand. Read the script. It never said that Gunn killed ALL those vamps in the Senator's office. That happen before the ally thing. He wasn't dying, he was become a vamp. So. It can't be Angel or Spike. They would already at the ally before Gunn.



She was talking about Gunn's heartbeat, it was fading away. Vampires don't have a heartbeat. And if Gunn got a stomach wound he would be in a wheelchair like Wes was that time he got a stomach wound. That mean he couldn't have made it from the the office to the alley if he was a normal human.


You really think a normal dying Gunn would make it from the Senator's office to the ally without end up dead on a sidewalk. Gunn was sired before the ally. He was at the Senator's office for some time. Got sired, fall, then woke back up and went to the ally. It fit. Unlike your reason. Yeah, like Angel going to sire Gunn, he was about to attack a demon when the show end. It really doesn't fit. If he got sired in the ally a demon would just killed his helpless body. Really dosen't fit.

[Angelus II]

Ha read your own posts.
Read my post over, I say I was using it as a guide. Did Angel or Spike sired Gunn, Nooooooooooooooooooo. Therefore I'm right. My guide was wrong, but I still come up with the right answer, Angel or Spike DID NOT SIRED GUNN. Ya guys say that Angel or Spike sired Gunn, sorry but you loss the debate.

And now you are attacking me just because my guide was wrong. That doesn't change anything. I'm still right, Angel or Spike didn't sired Gunn.
End of story.


I'm just going by the evidence I've seen.




Well, I guess you miss the evidence that Angel will ever sired a human for any reasons. Just look that season 2, Darla was dying and Angel didn't sired her to save her. Angel wanted to take her to a hospital to get help. If he wasn't busy fighting the dragon he would taken Gunn to a hospital, not sire him. Angel say that Darla damned him, why the hell would Angel damn a friend. Obvious you don't have the right evidence and you don't understand the story. Angel is trying to redeem himself from his past. Damning someone isn't helping that.

[Holacik]

Read my post over, I say I was using it as a guide. Did Angel or Spike sired Gunn, Nooooooooooooooooooo. Therefore I'm right. My guide was wrong, but I still come up with the right answer, Angel or Spike DID NOT SIRED GUNN. Ya guys say that Angel or Spike sired Gunn, sorry but you loss the debate.

And now you are attacking me just because my guide was wrong. That doesn't change anything. I'm still right, Angel or Spike didn't sired Gunn.
End of story. Ha, whatever you say. You said he got sired at the senator's office and he didn't, so your wrong too, accept it. Oh and for the record you can stop using plurals, as I never said that Spike or Angel sired Gunn.





Well, I guess you miss the evidence that Angel will ever sired a human for any reasons. Just look that season 2, Darla was dying and Angel didn't sired her to save her. Angel wanted to take her to a hospital to get help. If he wasn't busy fighting the dragon he would taken Gunn to a hospital, not sire him. Angel say that Darla damned him, why the hell would Angel damn a friend. Obvious you don't have the right evidence and you don't understand the story. Angel is trying to redeem himself from his past. Damning someone isn't helping that. So just a question, are you saying that Angel with a soul has never sired anyone?

[Holacik]

Read my post over, I say I was using it as a guide. Did Angel or Spike sired Gunn, Nooooooooooooooooooo. Therefore I'm right. My guide was wrong, but I still come up with the right answer, Angel or Spike DID NOT SIRED GUNN. Ya guys say that Angel or Spike sired Gunn, sorry but you loss the debate.

And now you are attacking me just because my guide was wrong. That doesn't change anything. I'm still right, Angel or Spike didn't sired Gunn.
End of story.



Odds are on either Angel or Spike siring him, or him being sired during the final battle or in the aftermath, having somehow survived. He may also have been sired in the hell that L.A. had become. I would imagine it was a vampire haven at that point.



You really think a normal dying Gunn would make it from the Senator's office to the ally without end up dead on a sidewalk. Gunn was sired before the ally. He was at the Senator's office for some time. Got sired, fall, then woke back up and went to the ally. It fit. Unlike your reason. Yeah, like Angel going to sire Gunn, he was about to attack a demon when the show end. It really doesn't fit. If he got sired in the ally a demon would just killed his helpless body. Really dosen't fit.

Was KJS wrong about either Spike or Angel sireing Gunn? Yes but he had another scenario that you shot down.

If he got sired in the ally a demon would just killed his helpless body. Really dosen't fit
Learn to deal with the fact that you were wrong. You stated multiple times that Gunn had to have been sired in the senator's office as he couldn't have possibly had made it to the alley. That was wrong.

[Angelus II]

Was KJS wrong about either Spike or Angel sireing Gunn? Yes but he had another scenario that you shot down.

Learn to deal with the fact that you were wrong. You stated multiple times that Gunn had to have been sired in the senator's office as he couldn't have possibly had made it to the alley. That was wrong.

Reread issue #2. Gunn wasn't sired in the ally, like KJS say he was. Gunn was dragged away and sired.

ANGEL:After the Fall #2 GUNN:Led me into a battle that ended with me being DRAGGED AWAY and turned while he played goddamn dragon-whisperer.





Yeah, like Angel going to sire Gunn, he was about to attack a demon when the show end. It really doesn't fit. If he got sired in the ally a demon would just killed his helpless body. Really dosen't fit.


I nail it. Angel or Spike didn't sired Gunn, and Gunn wasn't sired in the ally.




My only debate was on who sired Gunn. I was just debunking KJS claims that Gunn was sired in the ally. And he got scared and say that Gunn got sired in the hell of LA. Duh, he gonna get sired in the hell of LA, but that not a location. KJS first say it was the ally, so we sticking with that. And apparently it was wrong. KJS loss both.

[Wild Card13]

I nail it. Angel or Spike didn't sired Gunn, and Gunn wasn't sired in the ally.


It's "sire," not "sired." Mein gott, that's been bugging me throughout all of your posts.

Children. Should we really be arguing this passionately about a bunch of drawings? Honestly, you're all fulfilling every negative stereotype they've got about our fandom. As a fellow enthusiast, allow me to say, politely: DROP IT. JOSS F*CKING WHEDON DIDN'T PUT THIS MUCH THOUGHT INTO WHO SIRED GUNN, AND NEITHER SHOULD YOU.

Now, then, I thought the second issue was really great. Spike's exactly where I expected him to be, living the high life while he can. I thought he'd be a bit different, though, what with having a soul and everything, but there are some things about a man that you just can't change, I suppose. He's my favorite character, and I'll be intrigued to see what role he plays After The Fall.

[KJS1982]

Reread issue #2. Gunn wasn't sired in the ally, like KJS say he was. Gunn was dragged away and sired.

Are you even reading what Holacik is saying?

I had TWO, yes TWO (that's 2), possible arguments.

They were never both going to be right now, were they?

One was wrong. One was right.

Odds are on either Angel or Spike siring him, or him being sired during the final battle or in the aftermath, having somehow survived. He may also have been sired in the hell that L.A. had become. I would imagine it was a vampire haven at that point.

So that particular ONE of my TWO arguments was 100% correct. 100%. Correct.

You said he arrived at the alley as a vamp. He didn't. I knew this. You were wrong. 100% wrong. So I gave 2 possible ways other than that for him to have become a vamp.

I reiterate that one of them was 100% correct.

My only debate was on who sired Gunn.

No it wasn't! LIAR.

You said he arrived at the alley as a vamp. Which was WRONG.

[KJS1982]

I was thinking he came to alley as a vampire. Got in a fight with a vamp before hand. At the end of season 5, Spike made a remark to Gunn saying "shouldn't you be wearing that in the inside", regarding to Gunn's boodly shirt.

Gunn got attacked by vamps beforehand. Read the script. It never said that Gunn killed ALL those vamps in the Senator's office. That happen before the ally thing. He wasn't dying, he was become a vamp. So. It can't be Angel or Spike. They would already at the ally before Gunn.

You really think a normal dying Gunn would make it from the Senator's office to the ally without end up dead on a sidewalk. Gunn was sired before the ally. He was at the Senator's office for some time. Got sired, fall, then woke back up and went to the ally. It fit. Unlike your reason. Yeah, like Angel going to sire Gunn, he was about to attack a demon when the show end. It really doesn't fit. If he got sired in the ally a demon would just killed his helpless body. Really dosen't fit.

She was talking about Gunn's heartbeat, it was fading away. Vampires don't have a heartbeat. And if Gunn got a stomach wound he would be in a wheelchair like Wes was that time he got a stomach wound. That mean he couldn't have made it from the the office to the alley if he was a normal human.

...........

[Wild Card13]

Oy. Seriously, you two are ruining this whole thread.

And Angelus II, it's "alley," not "ally."

[HOLD DAT]

It's "sire," not "sired." Mein gott, that's been bugging me throughout all of your posts.

Children. Should we really be arguing this passionately about a bunch of drawings? Honestly, you're all fulfilling every negative stereotype they've got about our fandom. As a fellow enthusiast, allow me to say, politely: DROP IT. JOSS F*CKING WHEDON DIDN'T PUT THIS MUCH THOUGHT INTO WHO SIRED GUNN, AND NEITHER SHOULD YOU.

Now, then, I thought the second issue was really great. Spike's exactly where I expected him to be, living the high life while he can. I thought he'd be a bit different, though, what with having a soul and everything, but there are some things about a man that you just can't change, I suppose. He's my favorite character, and I'll be intrigued to see what role he plays After The Fall.

I mirror your thoughts on Spike. He and Angel are my two favorites in the Buffyverse. I'm interested in knowing what made Spike go into "high life" mode with all that happening around him

Whedon has done a good job of bringing angel back to his "season 1" self so to speak

After the fall also made me realize something else, Angel is not a good leader. Especially when you look at his stats. He's lost Doyle, Cordelia, Winifred, Wesley and Gunn. Lorne walked away, LA is overun by demons and i wont even get into Connor.


I'm looking forward to how soulboy handles this all moving forward

[KJS1982]

I just wish it was on TV.

I am really struggling to imagine how they could make it work on screen, and in a sense that sort of makes it almost unrealistically far removed from the TV series, but still think it would have been cool as heck.

[Angelus II]

or him being sired during the final battleThere still demons running round LA. Plus, Angel and Connor was in a battle in issue #2. So, Gunn wasn't sired after the final battle. The final battle didn't even happen yet. The battle in the ally was the first battle. That when the army first appear.


or in the aftermath, having somehow survived. He may also have been sired in the hell that L.A. had become. I would imagine it was a vampire haven at that point.Gunn was sired before Wolfram & Hart sent Los Angeles to Hell.

ANGEL:After the Fall #1

Wolfram & Hart sent an army
There were losses on both sides
And then Wolfram & Hart sent Los Angeles to Hell

KJS was wrong on all accounts.

The correct answer was Gunn was dragged away and sired just before Wolfram & Hart sent Los Angeles to Hell.

And don't even try to said that the "losses" were other humans. Wes proved that wasn't the case in issue #1.

Now Angel, I'm sure they weren't trying to kill the humans. They were trying to enslave them



One was wrong. One was right.



So that particular ONE of my TWO arguments was 100% correct. 100%. Correct.
Where exactly did you said Gunn was dragged away and sired before Wolfram & Hart sent Los Angeles to hell, you didn't. You are 100% wrong.

[Wild Card13]

There still demons running round LA. Plus, Angel and Connor was in a battle in issue #2. So, Gunn wasn't sired after the final battle. The final battle didn't even happen yet. The battle in the ally was the first battle. That when the army first appear.


Gunn was sired before Wolfram & Hart sent Los Angeles to Hell.



KJS was wrong on all accounts.

The correct answer was Gunn was dragged away and sired just before Wolfram & Hart sent Los Angeles to Hell.

And don't even try to said that the "losses" were other humans. Wes proved that wasn't the case in issue #1.




Where exactly did you said Gunn was dragged away and sired before Wolfram & Hart sent Los Angeles to hell, you didn't. You are 100% wrong.

Angelus II, I just want you to know that your persistence has made me care less about you and your opinions and make me lose so much respect for you that in conversation I would probably give deference to an unborn fetus before I deigned to hear what you had to say. You, being the twelve-year-old you are, really don't seem to be able to drop this. No. One. Cares. Stop, before I ask a mod to settle this argument for both of you.

As for the comments about Angel's leadership, you're absolutely right. Actually, I wouldn't say quite that. Angel can come up with good plans. Angel's problem is that he's not a good team player. His teams always fall apart because he's too much of a loner. The only person he can really collaborate with on a long-term basis is Spike, and that's because Spike's the only one who's 1) immortal like him and 2) has that same delicious craving for violence.

[Holacik]

I mirror your thoughts on Spike. He and Angel are my two favorites in the Buffyverse. I'm interested in knowing what made Spike go into "high life" mode with all that happening around him

Whedon has done a good job of bringing angel back to his "season 1" self so to speak

After the fall also made me realize something else, Angel is not a good leader. Especially when you look at his stats. He's lost Doyle, Cordelia, Winifred, Wesley and Gunn. Lorne walked away, LA is overun by demons and i wont even get into Connor.


I'm looking forward to how soulboy handles this all moving forward

Well in all fairness Conner wasn't really his fault. He was screwed by Sahjhan f'ing with prophices and Holtz's twisted game of revenge. Then after that was completely mind screwed by evil cordelia. Angel wasn't perfect but i'd hardly blame him for Conner.

[Holacik]

As for the comments about Angel's leadership, you're absolutely right. Actually, I wouldn't say quite that. Angel can come up with good plans. Angel's problem is that he's not a good team player. His teams always fall apart because he's too much of a loner. The only person he can really collaborate with on a long-term basis is Spike, and that's because Spike's the only one who's 1) immortal like him and 2) has that same delicious craving for violence.

I really think it has more to do with, Angel can smack him around if he wants. It's kind of how they roll.

[HOLD DAT]

Well in all fairness Conner wasn't really his fault. He was screwed by Sahjhan f'ing with prophices and Holtz's twisted game of revenge. Then after that was completely mind screwed by evil cordelia. Angel wasn't perfect but i'd hardly blame him for Conner.

the fact that connor was even born is why i judge angel kinda harshly. the guy f*cked Darla...willingly. that led to him being born and all that other drama in season 3 and 4. and all that happened during the time he fired his team and Wes got seriously injured. He sucks a s a leader.

but you are right about angel not having to do with Connor's, uh....psyche lol



I really think it has more to do with, Angel can smack him around if he wants. It's kind of how they roll.

they seemed to be a little closer at the end of season 5...especially when the slayer cut off Spike's hand and when they were trying to save Fred. It seems they have reverted back to their old ways though.

I dont want a bumbling baffoon spike anymore. i like the way he was written in season 5 and of course season 7 of angel

[KJS1982]

Where exactly did you said Gunn was dragged away and sired before Wolfram & Hart sent Los Angeles to hell, you didn't. You are 100% wrong.

a) It doesn't say whether or not he was sired before they sent it to hell. It's just an order of words. Wes was lost before the final battle, but "losses" includes him. Regardless, this is an irrelevent point because...
b) I wasn't explicitly referring to the hell it became after they specifically, literally sent it to hell. I was kinda referring to the fact that there were thousands of demons/monsters/dragons/vampires already there in the final battle.
c) I also see you clipped off the start of one of my quotes. Fortunately, you still left the part where I said "or in the aftermath". I said that just before I said the hell thing. He was sired in the aftermath, which is correct anyway.

You just seem to ignore the points that I'm right about, and highlight the parts that I've already admitted were incorrect.

I know that some of what I said was wrong. I have accepted that. But I also know that not everything that I said could have been right, as they were different guesses about differing possibilities. They simply couldn't all have been right.

All I know is that one of them was right. He was sired in the aftermath and not before the alley, which I already told you and simply gave you a couple of alternative possibilities because I knew your guess was not the correct case.

You said he was sired before, because he "arrived in the alley as a vamp", "couldn't possibly have got to the alley if he wasn't a vamp" etc etc. All of that you were adamant about, all of which was wrong.

Just get on with the thread.

Well in all fairness Conner wasn't really his fault. He was screwed by Sahjhan f'ing with prophices and Holtz's twisted game of revenge. Then after that was completely mind screwed by evil cordelia. Angel wasn't perfect but i'd hardly blame him for Conner.

I 100% agree. I understand why Angel would blame himself, but I can't understand why anyone else would see it that way - reader or character. It was totally out of his control.

the fact that connor was even born is why i judge angel kinda harshly. the guy f*cked Darla...willingly. that led to him being born and all that other drama in season 3 and 4. and all that happened during the time he fired his team and Wes got seriously injured. He sucks a s a leader.

The Darla thing... again, I do think that is a very harsh view (as you said yourself, so fair enough), because Angel couldn't possibly have known that could happen. And it wasn't even actually anything to do with the fact that they slept together, it was a higher power (Jasmine) who made it happen. I get the feeling it would have happened whether it was Darla, Cordelia, Nina, a random one-off character, or even Buffy who he had slept with that night.

they seemed to be a little closer at the end of season 5...especially when the slayer cut off Spike's hand and when they were trying to save Fred. It seems they have reverted back to their old ways though.

The hand thing was interesting. I get the feeling that Spike would have laughed his head off if it had happened to Angel.

The Fred thing... that's more understandable - they both had affection for her so it was more about putting her first than anything else. It was cool to see.

I dont want a bumbling baffoon spike anymore. i like the way he was written in season 5 and of course season 7 of angel

I like a good mix. I like Spike being competent when it comes to the serious stuff (fighting, love, figuring stuff out), but I like his incompetencies and his comedic side when it comes to the lesser things in life (dreaming of "drowning in footwear", discussing onion blossoms) - I think that's what makes him likeable.

[Holacik]

the fact that connor was even born is why i judge angel kinda harshly. the guy f*cked Darla...willingly. that led to him being born and all that other drama in season 3 and 4. and all that happened during the time he fired his team and Wes got seriously injured. He sucks a s a leader.

but you are right about angel not having to do with Connor's, uh....psyche lol Oh I completely agree that he was, well a scumbag in season two. Leaving the hotel for the Demon to feed , and one of the best scenes in all of Angel, locking the lawyers in Holand Manners wine cellar with Dru and Darla. A definite a holy s**t moment.





they seemed to be a little closer at the end of season 5...especially when the slayer cut off Spike's hand and when they were trying to save Fred. It seems they have reverted back to their old ways though.

I dont want a bumbling baffoon spike anymore. i like the way he was written in season 5 and of course season 7 of angel
Really I guy who bumbed off two slayers, shouldn't be made to look like a chump.



The Darla thing... again, I do think that is a very harsh view (as you said yourself, so fair enough), because Angel couldn't possibly have known that could happen. And it wasn't even actually anything to do with the fact that they slept together, it was a higher power (Jasmine) who made it happen. I get the feeling it would have happened whether it was Darla, Cordelia, Nina, a random one-off character, or even Buffy who he had slept with that night.
. I'm sorry but I completely disagree, the only reason he slept with Darla was to lose his soul, but he was too filled with self loathing to have a perfect moment of happiness, kept it from being one.

[KJS1982]

I'm sorry but I completely disagree, the only reason he slept with Darla was to lose his soul, but he was too filled with self loathing to have a perfect moment of happiness, kept it from being one.

I'm not arguing against that point.

I am saying that Jasmine's long term plan was to have someone give birth to Angel's child. If Angel hadn't slept with Darla that night, Connor would have had to be born to someone else. All I mean is that it's not Angel's fault that it was specifically Darla that he slept with which caused Connor to be born.

Obviously I know that he chose to sleep with Darla willingly, and for selfish reasons.

[HOLD DAT]

thats why we propably love the character so much...he does make mistakes.

he's far from your typical good guy

and i still want to know if he's still powered up from Hamilton's blood...

[KJS1982]

and i still want to know if he's still powered up from Hamilton's blood...

Obviously we can't prove anything yet, but I would doubt that very much.

If a vampire's "digestive system" works anything like our own (which I assume it does, because vampires do get hungry), then that blood will be long gone from his system now.

Be interesting if he was somehow still powered up, though.

Would explain how he one-punched Spike. Although Spike did claim he was inebriated.

[Angelus II]

a) It doesn't say whether or not he was sired before they sent it to hell. It's just an order of words. Wes was lost before the final battle, but "losses" includes him. Regardless, this is an irrelevent point because...
Angel view Gunn as a loss. He thought that Gunn was dragged away and killed. That why he said "there were losses on both sides.

ANGEL:After the Fall #2
Spike: Still can't believe Wesley had to go and die, Gunn had to be a four-course buffet without asking Boss-Man to sign off on-

Angel: Spike--quiet

b) I wasn't explicitly referring to the hell it became after they specifically, literally sent it to hell. I was kinda referring to the fact that there were thousands of demons/monsters/dragons/vampires already there in the final battle.Too bad you didn't say that. You said that Gunn may had some how survive after the final battle battle, and got sired in the hell that LA became. That's wrong. 1) it's wasn't after the final battle. After the final battle a vampire with a soul will shanshu. The final battle didn't happen yet...that's why you are wrong.

c) I also see you clipped off the start of one of my quotes. Fortunately, you still left the part where I said "or in the aftermath". I said that just before I said the hell thing. He was sired in the aftermath, which is correct anyway. You are still wrong. Gunn wasn't sired during the aftermath. He was sired before Wolfram & Hart sent LA to hell.

You just seem to ignore the points that I'm right about, and highlight the parts that I've already admitted were incorrect.

I know that some of what I said was wrong. I have accepted that. But I also know that not everything that I said could have been right, as they were different guesses about differing possibilities. They simply couldn't all have been right.

All I know is that one of them was right. He was sired in the aftermath and not before the alley, which I already told you and simply gave you a couple of alternative possibilities because I knew your guess was not the correct case. Both of your was wrong. Angelus 1 out of 2, KJS 0 out of 2.
You are soooooooo wrong. We was both wrong on the second, I was right on the first. Face that fact.

You said he was sired before, because he "arrived in the alley as a vamp", "couldn't possibly have got to the alley if he wasn't a vamp" etc etc. All of that you were adamant about, all of which was wrong. Yeah, but you was wrong on all of them.

Fact, Gunn was sired before Wolfram & Hart sent LA to hell.
The fact you say that it happen after the final battle is wrong, that's when a vampire with a soul will shanshu (rewatch ANGEL season 1, episode 22).
Also, you say that Gunn was sired in the hell of LA.
That to was wrong since Angel view Gunn as a loss, unaware he is now a vamp. And that was before Wolfram & Hart sent LA to hell, not after like you say happen.

We were both wrong on where Gunn was sired.
But I was right on who sired Gunn.

Face it.

Angelus 1 out of 2

KJS 0 out of 2

[Angelus II]

If a vampire's "digestive system" works anything like our own (which I assume it does, because vampires do get hungry), then that blood will be long gone from his system now.

Oh jeez. Don't you know anything about vampires. Their digestive system doesn't works like a living human. Vampires are dead. They don't need to breath, they don't need to eat. They just drink....that it.

Why are you so interested in ANGEL? Apparently you don't know anything about the them.



and i still want to know if he's still powered up from Hamilton's blood...

You still wondering about why Angel reeks of magic?

Well, I was thinking about it. It could because his soul was put back in by a spell. That could explain why he reek of magic.


Angelus II, I just want you to know that your persistence has made me care less about you and your opinions and make me lose so much respect for you that in conversation I would probably give deference to an unborn fetus before I deigned to hear what you had to say. You, being the twelve-year-old you are, really don't seem to be able to drop this. No. One. Cares. Stop, before I ask a mod to settle this argument for both of you.
If you really don't care about my opions, then just ignore me.

[KJS1982]

You are still wrong. Gunn wasn't sired during the aftermath. He was sired before Wolfram & Hart sent LA to hell.

"Led me into a battle that ended with me being dragged away and turned".

That's after, which is what I said. Simple.

You said he arrived there as a vamp. How were you right?

Oh jeez. Don't you know anything about vampires. Their digestive system doesn't works like a living human. Vampires are dead. They don't need to breath, they don't need to eat. They just drink....that it.

Stop being pedantic and ludicrously childish.

Obviously I know everything you just mentioned. But they need to feed fairly regularly, meaning that the blood they suck is used up i.e. digested. I'm talking about the principle, not the physicality. That is all I meant.

The way you talk suggests you are around 12 years old. I don't want to keep arguing with a petty little boy.

Why are you so interested in ANGEL? Apparently you don't know anything about the them.

"The them?" Apparently you know very little of the English language. I can barely understand a word you type. Please put some thought into what you are typing.

I knew Gunn didn't arrive at the alley as vamp. I knew he was sired after the battle.

You didn't.

You claimed it was impossible for him to have made it back to the alley if he hadn't already been sired. I knew this was not the case. I didn't know exactly how he was sired, I just knew it was after the battle, and certainly not before the alley, so I merely stated a number of alternate possibilities, one which turned out to be right - he was sired in the aftermath.

If you really don't care about my opions, then just ignore me.

Don't worry. We all will. End.

[Angelus II]

"Led me into a battle that ended with me being dragged away and turned".

That's after, which is what I said. Simple. He meant that the battle ended for him, meaning Gunn. But the it wasn't the final battle like you say it was. Angel is still battling, Gunn is still battle (now as a vamp). You are wrong. Plus, at the end of the final battle a vampire with a soul will shanshu. You keep on ignoring that fact. That proof that Gunn wasn't sired after the final battle. Plus, the battle didn't end.

ANGEL:After the Fall #1
Angel: I wish I could have taken the lords down one-by-one as they popped up, but fighting wasn't really an option.Moving wasn't really an opition. Your superiors saw to that

This arrest my case. You say that he was sired in the aftermath of the battle. That's wrong. The battle is still on. It didn't end, it was just delay.

You said he arrived there as a vamp. How were you right?
Aparently you didn't read my last post. I didn't say I was right about that.
Both of us was wrong on that part.

Angelus:1 out of 2 KJS:0 out of 2
Face that fact.



Stop being pedantic and ludicrously childish.
I'm not the one acting like a child. I admit I was wrong on the part I got wrong. You got everything wrong. And is acting like it a tie, when it isn't.


I knew Gunn didn't arrive at the alley as vamp. I knew he was sired after the battle. He wasn't sired after the battle, he was sired during the battle.

Angel:After the Fall #2

Gunn:Led me into a battle that ended with me being dragged away and turned while he played goddamn dragon-whisperer.
The fact that Gunn have Angel battling the dragon, put it during the battle.
Face the fact that you are wrong.



You claimed it was impossible for him to have made it back to the alley if he hadn't already been sired. I knew this was not the case. I didn't know exactly how he was sired,
Do I need to break this down for you so you can understand. Yes, I was wrong on the last part....but so was you.

I just knew it was after the battle, and certainly not before the alley, so I merely stated a number of alternate possibilities, one which turned out to be right - he was sired in the aftermath. And that why you are wrong. Gunn was sired during the battle when Angel was fighting the dragon. Gunn even say it in issue #2. You are 100% wrong.

[KJS1982]

When I'm using the term "final battle" it refers to the final visible battle of the TV series. Did you seriously think I meant the last battle ever in the history of time? Even I doubt that you really thought that. Probably pedantic idiocy again, though.

You have a silly habit of picking out "faults" that are neither the topic in question or even there at all (vampire digestion, final battle, dragon WHISPERER). You're less bright than I thought.

The fact that you interpret things wrong (or twist them to make yourself feel better) does not somehow translate into you being right.

And the fact that you feel the need to keep resorting to such desperate attempts to get something right proves how low you're prepared to go. It's just a shame you keep getting them all wrong and making yourself look silly and, may I say, very immature.

[KJS1982]

Oh and "Dragon WHISPERER" refers to whilst Angel was relating to the dragon in a vocal sense. Not when he was fighting it. Angel found that he and the dragon saw eye-to-eye. Hardly gonna find that out when he's sticking a sword in its neck is he? Or when he's fighting thousands of other demons et al? When the fight ended, Angel was communicating with the dragon, some vamps turned up and exploited the situation by taking Gunn away and siring him.

There is also no way that a group of regular vampires would dare to show up among so many powerful demons. Standard vampires have shown themselves to be, among other things, cowards in the Buffyverse - unless they are preying on the weak. Hence they showed up *after* the big scrap, whilst Angel was *communicating with* (NOT fighting) the dragon.

By using the "Dragon Whisperer" quote to somehow prove yourself right, you've done exactly the opposite.

Jesus.

Oh, and I've asked you to type properly once, yet you're still typing like you have paws as opposed to hands.

Make it easier on yourself - please type properly.

[Angelus II]

KJS, I want you to read the last page of FADE IN by Chris Ryall, the editor of ANGEL:After the Fall.

FADE IN page 2

Now, I can hear some of you--this issue picks up at a point after the climactic battle in the ally, but not right after

Calling me a liar, you are also calling the Editor of the book a liar.

Gunn wasn't sired in the aftermath of the battle like you say.

[KJS1982]

KJS, I want you to read the last page of FADE IN by Chris Ryall, the editor of ANGEL:After the Fall.

Calling me a liar, you are also calling the Editor of the book a liar.

Gunn wasn't sired in the aftermath of the battle like you say.

You're doing it again. This is one of your irrelevent, off-topic posts that makes it look as though I have said something that I haven't actually said.

What is your point here?

Where did I say that the episode in question picks up right after the climatic battle? I simply didn't. And that's not relevent anyway.

It's almost as if you are arguing with yourself.

[Angelus II]

You're doing it again. This is one of your irrelevent, off-topic posts that makes it look as though I have said something that I haven't actually said. How is it off-topic? Oh, jeez KJS is wrong so now he got to come up with some deceive plan to made it look like I don't know what I talking about.

What is your point here?


or him being sired during the final battle or in the aftermath, having somehow survived.


Where did I say that the episode in question picks up right after the climatic battle? I simply didn't.



or him being sired during the final battle or in the aftermath, having somehow survived.

And that's not relevent anyway.

Chris Ryall is the Editor of the book. He say that the Angel:After the Fall doesn't come exactly after the battle in the ally. If you read FADE IN in issue #1 you would had known that.

The fact that you said that Gunn was sired in the aftermath of the battle, and Chris stated in FADE IN that this book (Angel:After the Fall) doesn't come exactly after the climactic battle in the ally. Mean you were wrong.

You can't argue against that. Chris Ryall is an employee of IDWpublishing.

Chris Ryall shot your last hope down.

[KJS1982]

So, let me get this straight, you are trying to tell me that Angel: After the Fall (Season SIX) comes BEFORE the end of Angel: Season FIVE?

Now I've seen it all.

Someone ban this chump.

[Angelus II]

So, let me get this straight, you are trying to tell me that Angel: After the Fall (Season SIX) comes BEFORE the end of Angel: Season FIVE?

Now I've seen it all.

Someone ban this chump.No, Angel:After the Fall come after Season 5. But the battle in the ally didn't end there,like Chris say.

So, the battle started at the end of season 5

the battle is continuing in Angel: After the Fall

The battle will be over when Angel: After the Fall end.

[KJS1982]

No, Angel:After the Fall come after Season 5. But the battle in the ally didn't end,like Chris say.

So, the battle started at the end of season 5

the battle is continuing in Angel: After the Fall

The battle will be over when Angel: After the Fall end.

Chronology of events:-

Angel and co. show up at the alley.

They fight in that specific place, with those specific combatants for a while.

They escape or overcome that particular wave of opponents.

Angel talks to dragon.

Gunn gets sired.

Battle continues in the long run.

Some time later, maybe days, maybe weeks, maybe months, Angel: After the Fall begins.

I don't know what makes you think I thought anything different, but you seem to think that the exact same fight that Angel and co. were involved in down that alley is still happening now, when it isn't.

Obviously (and I do mean OBVIOUSLY) the big fight - the war, so to speak - is still ongoing, but that particular battle in the alley ended, probably on that night. That's why Gunn said it "ended with him getting dragged away and turned".

Like I said, you're arguing with yourself, because no one has said anything different to the completely obvious point you are making.

[Angelus II]

Chronology of events:-

Angel and co. show up at the alley.

They fight in that specific place, with those specific combatants for a while.

They escape or overcome that particular wave of opponents.

Angel talks to dragon.

Gunn gets sired.

Battle continues in the long run.

Some time later, maybe days, maybe weeks, maybe months, Angel: After the Fall begins.

I don't know what makes you think I thought anything different, but you seem to think that the exact same fight that Angel and co. were involved in down that alley is still happening now, when it isn't.

Obviously (and I do mean OBVIOUSLY) the big fight - the war, so to speak - is still ongoing, but that particular battle in the alley ended, probably on that night. That's why Gunn said it "ended with him getting dragged away and turned".

Like I said, you're arguing with yourself, because no one has said anything different to the completely obvious point you are making.
KJS, you aren't an employee of IDWpublishing. You don't know how everything happen. So just drop it. You are 100% wrong.

Thank you Chris Ryall. A genuine employee of IDWpublishing.

[Holacik]

At this point KJS he seems like a troll who's flamebaiting. Stop responding to him and just ignore him.

[KJS1982]

KJS, you aren't an employee of IDWpublishing. You don't know how everything happen. So just drop it. You are 100% wrong.

Thank you Chris Ryall. A genuine employee of IDWpublishing.

So you are telling me that they are still fighting in the alley, despite the fact that, 2 episodes in, there's no sign of it?

What are you even implying that Ryall said?

The quote you've used, which I've read myself, is that the comic picks up "AFTER" the battle, but not "RIGHT AFTER", which simply means that it could have picked up 3 weeks after, or 5 days after, or 2 months after, as opposed to seconds after it ended.

Either way, it's AFTER.

So yes, thank you Chris Ryall for confirming that it (quite obviously) occurs AFTER the battle in the alley, but I didn't actually need you to tell me.

[KJS1982]

At this point KJS he seems like a troll who's flamebaiting. Stop responding to him and just ignore him.

Yes, thank you - a flamebaiting troll indeed.

Let me just ask; Do you actually understand his point? Or does he really look as stupid as he seems to me?

[Holacik]

Yes, thank you - a flamebaiting troll indeed.

Let me just ask; Do you actually understand his point? Or does he really look as stupid as he seems to me?

I stopped reading his posts.

[KJS1982]

I stopped reading his posts.

That pretty much answers my question. Thanks.

[Brandon Hanvey]

This is where I put my mod hat on and ask people to be civil.

[MadBastard]

Is Angel in Hell again? Is he wanted by a lord of Hell? Is he in more trouble than we thought?

Yes (http://madbastard.hypersites.com/site/page/pg3388-pn_Angel_3.html).

[Madama Butterfly]

Anybody has spoilers for issue #3?

[bfrank]

Anybody has spoilers for issue #3?

yes......riight above you.......

[Samuraixsithlord]

big spoilers


Illyria and the Dragon fight and Angel is revealed to be human, he got shanshued. It looks like his abilities are similar to Connor's. He's got the abilities of his vampire slef but without his limitations or thirst for blood

[Angelus II]

big spoilers


Illyria and the Dragon fight and Angel is revealed to be human, he got shanshued. It looks like his abilities are similar to Connor's. He's got the abilities of his vampire slef but without his limitations or thirst for blood

That a lie, he got no vamp abilites. And we don't know if he got shanshued. They could be going with something like in season 1, "I Will Remember You". We just don't know right now. It still up in the air.

I recently e-mailed Chris Ryall about Gunn status, and got this back...

We'll definitely answer the question of when and how Gunn was sired in the pages of the comic... in the two-part "First Night" we're doing in Angel 6 and 7, actually.


Chris

So, all the questions we have about ANGEL: After the Fall won't be answer untill ANGEL: First Night.

[Holacik]

That a lie, he got no vamp abilites. And we don't know if he got shanshued.


I thought Angel forfeited his chance to become human(as a reward from the prophecy) when he signed his name in blood on the shanshue Prophecy.

[Jack]

That a lie, he got no vamp abilites.Well, he clearly can't heal like a vampire anymore... but when he punched Ilyria she said "you are half of what you once were", which kind of suggests he at least has some powers, rather than being utterly human. Unless she was being weird and speaking metaphysically, that he's half of what he was because he's now just a human, not a human bonded with a demon spirit.

[CrossoverManiac]

I thought Angel forfeited his chance to become human(as a reward from the prophecy) when he signed his name in blood on the shanshue Prophecy.

Also, don't going to other dimensions change the rules like sunlight doesn't kill vamps or that they cast reflections and turn into ferral demons when they try vamping out.

[Taskmaster]

Wow, as a recent convert to the Buffyverse/Angleverse fandom who just watched both shows in the last year or so I was really disappointed by the first two issues of After the Fall, but this third issue....WOW! That was awesome, I really didn't see that coming with Angel and i'm glad to see Spike being...well....Spike as he's my favorite character in this universe. I also just want to put out that as much as I love Gunn I really don't want him to get a soul anytime soon because Angel with one was cool, Spike with one was AWESOME, but Gunn with one? It's getting a little played out

[Jack]

Also, don't going to other dimensions change the rules like sunlight doesn't kill vamps or that they cast reflections and turn into ferral demons when they try vamping out.
From what we know, in this dimension vamps constantly feel a mixture between euphoria and burning skin, but their healing works fine. It's just that Angel then says he isn't a vampire anymore.

[HOLD DAT]

Angel's what???

Holy Sh....

*knocks down old lady while running to the comic store*

[Holacik]

Also, don't going to other dimensions change the rules like sunlight doesn't kill vamps or that they cast reflections and turn into ferral demons when they try vamping ou