Why is Uchiha Sasuke contreversial? [Archive]

Ghost

11-15-2007, 07:05 PM

Kage Kisaragi

11-15-2007, 07:29 PM

All Awesome Super Stars are preceived as contraversal. Name any really big star and you'll see that they are always surrounded by some rumor or whatever. Sasuke is just doing the samething. Awesome = Contraversy, especially since the name of the show isn't Sasuke.

Maikofan

11-15-2007, 07:30 PM

I think a lot of people have simply misunderstood Sasuke's character and his role in the story. They didn't expect him to decide to betray Konoha, nor did they expect him to actually succeed. I suspect the people who got upset about that are the same people who loved to see Naruto beat up people on a higher tier then himself and make them better people in the process. (People love an underdog, you know.)

Then came Shippuden, which revealed the Sasuke had managed to become insanely powerful, far outclassing Naruto. A lot of people hated this because they see Sasuke as Naruto's destined rival.

See, the general idea is that Sasuke isn't "supposed" to be an antagonist, nor is he "supposed" to be stronger then Naruto. They're "supposed" to be equals, working together to fight the bad guys while growing stronger, trying to top each other. This is probably because many fans innitially mistook him for a hero rather then the anti-hero he actually is.

The second instalment of they story also lead to another misunderstanding: one of storytelling methodology. As I see it, Naruto (the manga, not the character) is currently in the "Second Act." In storytelling, acts are a kind of "emotional rollercoaster" that normally work like this:

Act 1: Introduces the characters and their motivations; who they are, what they do, what they want and why they can't have it.

Act 2: Introduces a major conflict, typically putting the heroes in deep shit and stacking the odds against them. (If you look at Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back is a typical second act.)

Act 3: Big Finale! The heroes strike back, slays the dragon, saves the princess and makes all their dreams come true. Happy ending!

See, Naruto is currently in the "stacking odds against the hero's favour" phase. Sasuke, who is now an antagonist (though not exactly a villain) gets tons of powerups and is nearly invincible, while Naruto, who is the hero, barely gets anything useful at all. This is probably just a way to build suspence for the big finale. Only, a lot of people don't see it like that. They think that Sasuke is somehow "taking over the manga." Which is silly, because he's not actually designed to be a main protagonist at all.

Furthermore, Sasuke seems to sort of represent and antithesis of what Shonen is all about. He doesn't care about friends (commiting the Shonen Cardinal Sin of betraying his nakama) he was born with his special powers and steals his abilities rather then achieving them through hard work. He's primarily motivated by revenge and have vaguely defined morals outside of this motivation. These thing might also be part of the reason why fans resent him.Wow, thank you this is what I've been looking for, but heres my take on it, I read an interview with Mitsuo Fukuda, the director for Gundam Seed Destiny. In it he talked about why Shinn was so hated in Japan. He said Shinn was the Japanese children of today. He doesn't have guilt, but a sense of entitlement. And he was hated because they don't want to see the adverse parts they have themselves. And Sasuke does very much the same.

There are times when Sasuke would freeze up because he was scared. That's a natural human emotion. But Naruto is romanticized. No matter the danger, he faces it head on. Everyone likes to feel that if they were in that situation, they would act like Naruto where the fear is no big thing. But in reality they would behave as Sasuke does, where it's gets to be too much for them.

Sasuke also doesn't mind taking the quick or easy way. He's like most people, the ends justify the means. If there's a way to get over, we'll take it. But we don't like to admit it.

Sasuke shows us all the ugly emotions we try to deny. Where Naruto's jealousy is spun as being fiercely competitive, Sasuke shows it for what it truly is. Irrational insecurity. It's something undesirable and people lash out at Sasuke for putting something they try to ignore in their face.

Not only that, but people on these forums are so arrogant about their opinions and theories and predictions, they can't stand when they're wrong. And no one throws those predictions and opinions off more than Sasuke. Even his fans are dead wrong when they think they have him figured out.

So I think Sasuke is contreversal because he's the only shonen character with self entitlement. Which pretty much strenghthens my love for this character even more, Sasuke defies and breaks the obvious formula and rearranges it with his own role.

He's one of a kind. In a sense.

Ghost

11-15-2007, 07:43 PM

Wow, thank you this is what I've been looking for, but heres my take on it, I read an interview with Mitsuo Fukuda, the director for Gundam Seed Destiny. In it he talked about why Shinn was so hated in Japan. He said Shinn was the Japanese children of today. He doesn't have guilt, but a sense of entitlement. And he was hated because they don't want to see the adverse parts they have themselves. And Sasuke does very much the same.

Isn't Sasuke pretty much the number one fan favourite in Japan, though?

I was under the impression that he's incredibly popular over there.

There are times when Sasuke would freeze up because he was scared. That's a natural human emotion. But Naruto is romanticized. No matter the danger, he faces it head on. Everyone likes to feel that if they were in that situation, they would act like Naruto where the fear is no big thing. But in reality they would behave as Sasuke does, where it's gets to be too much for them.

Sasuke also doesn't mind taking the quick or easy way. He's like most people, the ends justify the means. If there's a way to get over, we'll take it. But we don't like to admit it.

Sasuke shows us all the ugly emotions we try to deny. Where Naruto's jealousy is spun as being fiercely competitive, Sasuke shows it for what it truly is. Irrational insecurity. It's something undesirable and people lash out at Sasuke for putting something they try to ignore in their face.

Well, this is only natural. People want to see the things they admire in a hero, not the things they hate. That's what makes them heroes in the first place. There's nothing wrong with that.

Not only that, but people on these forums are so arrogant about their opinions and theories and predictions, they can't stand when they're wrong. And no one throws those predictions and opinions off more than Sasuke. Even his fans are dead wrong when they think they have him figured out.

Well, except me, of course.

'Cause I'm never wrong. ;) :p

So I think Sasuke is contreversal because he's the only shonen character with self entitlement. Which pretty much strenghthens my love for this character even more, Sasuke defies and breaks the obvious formula and rearranges it with his own role.

He's one of a kind. In a sense.

Eh, I wouldn't go that far. Too me, it seems like you are describing the average anti-hero, maybe with a splash of Tradgic Hero thrown in. I wouldn't say he's especially unique, or even as interesting as he could have been.

Maikofan

11-15-2007, 08:05 PM

Isn't Sasuke pretty much the number one fan favourite in Japan, though?

I was under the impression that he's incredibly popular over there.

Well, this is only natural. People want to see the things they admire in a hero, not the things they hate. That's what makes them heroes in the first place. There's nothing wrong with that.

Well, except me, of course.

'Cause I'm never wrong. ;) :p

Eh, I wouldn't go that far. Too me, it seems like you are describing the average anti-hero, maybe with a splash of Tradgic Hero thrown in. I wouldn't say he's especially unique, or even as interesting as he could have been.He's gotta be unique for a character of his stucture and his reaction.

Well Sasuke is my hero, he's something I want to be, and thats a popular guy. What people probably hate about sasuke, I probably admire and respect.

I don't know what sasuke's is so hated for, he's doing these things only to survive, which is pretty much human.

Inkthinker

11-15-2007, 08:40 PM

he's doing these things only to survive, which is pretty much human.

"Survival" is Sasuke's excuse... "Vengeance" is Sasuke's reason.

There's not a lot that's admirable about Sasuke's actions. Understandable, sure, but that's the not the same thing.

Maikofan

11-15-2007, 08:57 PM

"Survival" is Sasuke's excuse... "Vengeance" is Sasuke's reason.

There's not a lot that's admirable about Sasuke's actions. Understandable, sure, but that's the not the same thing.Well, he never gives up and always stays focused on what he wants to achive in life. Other than that, yes some of his actions are admirable. Vague, but admirable.

Ghost

11-15-2007, 09:34 PM

He's gotta be unique for a character of his stucture and his reaction.

Heck no. He's the Avenger archetype. That's, like, one of the oldest in the book. Mythology is full of those guys, for crying out loud.

If he'd decided not to avenge his clan by slaying his brother and not giving up everything in for the sake of revenge, now that would have made him unique.

Well Sasuke is my hero, he's something I want to be, and thats a popular guy. What people probably hate about sasuke, I probably admire and respect.

Er, if Sasuke was ever "popular", it was either in a very shallow way (as in the case of the girls like Sakura and Ino, who seemed attracted to him because he was "cool" and "mysterious") or in directly opportunistic and creepy way (Oroichimaru, and anyone else wanting to exploit the fact that he's a Uchiha.)

Other then that, the only one who currently seems to give a damn about him on a personal level is, ironically, Naruto. Even Sakura doesn't seem that concerned about him anymore.

I don't know what sasuke's is so hated for, he's doing these things only to survive, which is pretty much human.

Huh? :confused:

Sasuke has been firmly established as a character who cares about nothing but killing his brother, who is incidentally one of the baddest mofoes ever.

If he was concerned with his survival at all he'd stay the hell away from Itachi. Instead he puts his body at stake by joining Orochimaru and then goes out picking fights with the Akatsuki. Sasuke's motivation is revenge, and only revenge.

Alex L

11-15-2007, 10:56 PM

Well Sasuke's build up is slower and more complitcated than naruto's his true orgins were always a mystery and his heritage is more a mystery since Madara is the Sharigan's true creator.

Thats not a reason to hate Sasuke, because he has a mysterious powers only Madara knows about.

Sharigan did evolve from the Byukkgan, it's probably more advance, Kishi alwyas kept Sasuke's character in the dark until he met Itachi.

And Itachi words probably forshawed such a incredible feat, his words hold more merit since he's forshadowed as the biggest threat to Sasuke.

Plus I don't see anyone complaining about Peins eye, why is Sasuke the one who gets all the shunning?

Because:

- Pein's eye hasn't really done anything yet. Well, let me take that back: It seems to grant him triple-vision, but nothing else.

- The Sharingan can now do pretty much everything except make its user a tuna sandwich (and even then, just give it time...)

Of the three main jutsu styles, it can predict and auto-process a counter for taijutsu, it can break any genjutsu except for one created by another haXor-eye, and it can read and provide a counter for ninjutsu. Its only weakness (Zabuza's mist) has since been retconned out (Sasuke could see the ninja in the forest).

That's fairly boring, and if there's ever a situation that Sasuke apparently can't get out of, some new Sharingan power like sealing the Kyuubi will magically appear.

tipo4thesoul

11-15-2007, 11:02 PM

I personally don't like Saskue's eyes. They seem so advanced for someone so young. I mean, how much could Ochimo know about the eyes without possessing them. But after three years Saskue's eyes can pretty much do anything (including making a tuna sandwich, considering you never see him stop to eat). Itachi can make super illuisions and project fire from his eyes and even freeze. That took him most of his life. Saskue's original teacher just learned how to transport matter. In three years Saskue learns how to look at molecules and Chakra? That crazy. What next? Being able to master all the elements?

His eyes are too strong and he has become a sort of a Dues-Ex-Machina.

The Xenos

11-16-2007, 01:32 AM

I gave up on Naruto a long time ago. Still, I kinda liked Sasuke and I think that's an interesting path for the character. Meanwhile, I can't stand either the rapid haters or the rapid fans of im. Though mainly I can't stand the slash fans. Ugh. Itachi-cest? What's wrong with you?

The Xenos

11-16-2007, 01:34 AM

The Xenos

11-16-2007, 01:36 AM

Kage Kisaragi

11-16-2007, 08:48 AM

*turns into Rapid Neji/Rock Lee/Sasuke/Tenten/Ino/Hinata fan.*
Raghh! They beat all, they eat all, they be all powerful Ragh!!

Ghost

11-16-2007, 09:48 AM

Hm. Phantom post.

Quilt

11-16-2007, 10:07 AM

Ghost

11-16-2007, 11:12 AM

I just don't like Sasuke because he's a depressing little douche-bag.

"Waaaa, my life isn't perfect like everybody else! Noone understands my pain! WAAAA."

Quit your crying and get over it you whiny little piece of sh*t. Seriously, he's almost as bad as an emo-kid.

To be fair, though, he doesn't really angst anymore. These days he's going for kind of a Stone Cold Stoic Samurai style.

Besides, you try having every single relative killed, seeing your parents murdered before your eyes, and getting mentally tortured in general by your psycho older brother and see how chipper you are after that.

Maikofan

11-16-2007, 11:42 AM

Heck no. He's the Avenger archetype. That's, like, one of the oldest in the book. Mythology is full of those guys, for crying out loud.

If he'd decided not to avenge his clan by slaying his brother and not giving up everything in for the sake of revenge, now that would have made him unique.No it wouldn't. And no it wouldn't make him any more unique, it would make him predictible and boring.

Er, if Sasuke was ever "popular", it was either in a very shallow way (as in the case of the girls like Sakura and Ino, who seemed attracted to him because he was "cool" and "mysterious") or in directly opportunistic and creepy way (Oroichimaru, and anyone else wanting to exploit the fact that he's a Uchiha.)

Other then that, the only one who currently seems to give a damn about him on a personal level is, ironically, Naruto. Even Sakura doesn't seem that concerned about him anymore.Sakura still cares for him she punched Sai for talking bad about him. And Madara who is the real leader care about his potenial.

Huh? :confused:

Sasuke has been firmly established as a character who cares about nothing but killing his brother, who is incidentally one of the baddest mofoes ever.

If he was concerned with his survival at all he'd stay the hell away from Itachi. Instead he puts his body at stake by joining Orochimaru and then goes out picking fights with the Akatsuki. Sasuke's motivation is revenge, and only revenge.Have you read the chapters, Sasuke had planned this before he left the village. He's not taking no chances by mulling it over. And Sasuke cut bonds with his former friends so they wouldn't be in danger, so no stop procrastinatingOriginally Posted by Quilt
I just don't like Sasuke because he's a depressing little douche-bag.

"Waaaa, my life isn't perfect like everybody else! Noone understands my pain! WAAAA."

Quit your crying and get over it you whiny little piece of sh*t. Seriously, he's almost as bad as an emo-kid.See this why I'm not much of a Naruto fan, hyporcrites with shallow short sighted opinions.

Guy1

11-16-2007, 12:00 PM

See this why I'm not much of a Naruto fan, hyporcrites with shallow short sighted opinions.

Yeah, because you saying everyone else is a 'hypocrites with shallow short sighted opinions' is sooooo much better right?

And, about Sasuke supposedly 'cutting ties to protect his friends' statement of yours, I suppose this was for Naruto's own good then?
http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0WgDJDucbDw5uR0F0StOgzvlau2!rXfw!Vh*dt7Ce6zS8Q8xmT bcLIC7uHc8v*MYRt*JmvxxbdTA4w7S5oQo6bzmtBb74HfuwaT8 RkVj6pdEQRY3OjZPU3wwYvzq8stFgfvIFTQ*G*r0/P?dc=4675544362472877010
Sasuke flat out going the kill on Naruto, and in case you bring out the fact that Naruto regenerated, Sasuke had no way of knowing he would do that.
http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0VwAMGVsb9NRuR0F0StOgzvlau2!rXfw!I1zdorzfCZJ1NHZWC 1q15Bn8g1YbuCFOl27MdpYS7duOWHxKQb1rXvZ93Bmj508iK9K apKhLeDoe1AnTY1yo3UMwj7Zdtvdi/naruto_ch228_p13.png?dc=4675544362483641470
He was flat out trying to kill the guy who he admitted was his best friend all for the chance to get more power.

Guy1

11-16-2007, 12:47 PM

Anyway, to get back on topic, I guess it's just depends on how people view the character.
You have the people who hate him and run with that hate, the fans of him who try to defend him which inevitably causes an argument, which eventually gets out of control.
Neither side is soley to blame. The way I see it, just try to accept it and eventually it will go away and people will find something else to rant about. I myself am getting my hate for the character gradually.

Daemon

11-16-2007, 01:21 PM

As much as pre-timeskip i disliked jerkface i still at least respected him. He stuck to his ideals and goals and set out to do it no matter what it took.

I can give props to that.

Then in Part two he suddenly does a 180 and goes...hrm i need a team, Bwa? He also takes on a fangirl which he previously also avoided like the plague when he could.

I also despise the fact that after three years Jerkface can do everything while Naruto spent that time perfecting his use of Kyuubi Chakra and then suddenly he's 1, forbidden to use it and 2, Jerkface has a counter to it because of the Sharingan. Which means if the Sharigan can shut down the Kyuubi...um why didn't the whole Uchiha Corps kinda like Gang Tackle the Kyuubi 12 years ago?

So I dislike the huge Disparage in power between the two main characters. They upto the end of the first part were relatively equal in power.

Cleric of Hell's Brigade

11-16-2007, 01:28 PM

While I don't hate Sasuke, I do dislike how he's been portrayed in the manga/anime.

For the most part, he and Naruto were equals throughout the first part of the manga, and yet, now Sasuke seems to be capable of beating anyone and anything, while Naruto can barely beat anyone anymore it seems.

The distance between teh two of them is too great now, and I have a feeling that when the conflict between the two finally arises, Naruto will have to pull some sort of Deus ex Machina out just to beat Sasuke's Deus ex Machina.

Guy1

11-16-2007, 01:29 PM

Cleric of Hell's Brigade

11-16-2007, 01:29 PM

Dark Soul # 7

11-16-2007, 01:41 PM

See this why I'm not much of a Naruto fan, hyporcrites with shallow short sighted opinions.Unlike yourself then.

That's sarcasm by the way.
Have you read the chapters, Sasuke had planned this before he left the village. He's not taking no chances by mulling it over. And Sasuke cut bonds with his former friends so they wouldn't be in danger, so no stop procrastinatingPlanned what? To hook up with three persons he didn't even know existed yet? The only thing going through his mind when he left Konoha was to get more power by training with Orochimaru. He didn't have any grand scheme.

The reason he cut the bonds with Naruto and Sakura was that they wouldn't be in his way.

Maikofan

11-16-2007, 02:38 PM

That's pretty the same reason I hate him, also because as of the fight with Deidara he's officially pulling out powers for it from no where. (Micro/X-Ray Vision? WTF?) Add that to the way he survived the fight was total BS.Um most of you aren't being logical, you say Sasuke has Deus ex machina while you should of known Sasuke was going to become a better more versitile ninja in part 2, and Sharigan for the last time isn't wanked, it's at it's peak in power in Sasuke which Itachi throughly explained over in part one.

I don't see why you all dislike Sasuke for being what he naturally is in the first place the manga portrayed him as, a powerful ninja who's a prodigy and a total badass.

Sharigan having mircroscopic abilties and chakra surpressing is one of the reasons Sasuke is portrayed a genius in the first place. Its no different from Itachi's Tsukiyomi.

Some of you are to judgemental on the last of the Uchiha's, I suggest you re read the fights he's been in currently, his progress in Orochimaru's eyes, and Kakashi's forshadowing in the Zombie Bros. Arc.

Sasuke is not a cheater, or a un fair haxed character at all, Naruto still has the most powerful Bijuu and plot device and he still is the main lead.

I can't believe you hate him for living up to his hype like he said he would, hyporcrites much?

Dark Soul # 7

11-16-2007, 02:45 PM

Sasuke is not a cheater, or a un fair haxed character at all, Naruto still has the most powerful Bijuu and plot device and he still is the main lead.Naruto is currently trainin to not be as reliant on the fox's chakra as he used to be. Even when he uses it the kyuubi's powers hurt him in several ways.

That and despite being the main character he's leaps and bounds behind Sasuke in terms of skill.

Quilt

11-16-2007, 03:25 PM

Guy1

11-16-2007, 03:31 PM

Quilt

11-16-2007, 03:44 PM

He's still a freaking douche-bag, and it's a bullcrap reason, but he had one.

That's what I'm saying. I know he had a reason. It just wasn't a good one. Frankly, I think he's a pretty weak character all around. Let the flame-war begin.

AllisterH

11-16-2007, 05:14 PM

Um most of you aren't being logical, you say Sasuke has Deus ex machina while you should of known Sasuke was going to become a better more versitile ninja in part 2, and Sharigan for the last time isn't wanked, it's at it's peak in power in Sasuke which Itachi throughly explained over in part one.

I don't see why you all dislike Sasuke for being what he naturally is in the first place the manga portrayed him as, a powerful ninja who's a prodigy and a total badass.

Sharigan having mircroscopic abilties and chakra surpressing is one of the reasons Sasuke is portrayed a genius in the first place. Its no different from Itachi's Tsukiyomi.

?

Explain to me what the weakness of the Sharingan then is. There seems to be no counter to it AND the fact that it has powers it shouldn't seem to escape you.

In part one, at what point does the Sharingan gain microscopic vision which everyone believes should by rights be the province of the Byagukan? If Hinata or Neji devloped that ability, I doubt anyone would say anything given their style of fighting and evidence pre-Timeskip.

The sharingan? Nope, way too overpowered compared to any other bloodline ability we've seen.

JillyBilly

11-16-2007, 07:19 PM

Um most of you aren't being logical, you say Sasuke has Deus ex machina while you should of known Sasuke was going to become a better more versitile ninja in part 2, and Sharigan for the last time isn't wanked, it's at it's peak in power in Sasuke which Itachi throughly explained over in part one.

I don't see why you all dislike Sasuke for being what he naturally is in the first place the manga portrayed him as, a powerful ninja who's a prodigy and a total badass.

Sharigan having mircroscopic abilties and chakra surpressing is one of the reasons Sasuke is portrayed a genius in the first place. Its no different from Itachi's Tsukiyomi.

Some of you are to judgemental on the last of the Uchiha's, I suggest you re read the fights he's been in currently, his progress in Orochimaru's eyes, and Kakashi's forshadowing in the Zombie Bros. Arc.

Sasuke is not a cheater, or a un fair haxed character at all, Naruto still has the most powerful Bijuu and plot device and he still is the main lead.

I can't believe you hate him for living up to his hype like he said he would, hyporcrites much?

I agree with you. Sasuke turning out to be a weakling would be like Adrian Peterson turning out to be another Ryan Leaf. Anyway, he wasn't that good in pre-timeskip so at least he actually lives up to the hype as a genius now.

Totoro Man

11-16-2007, 07:48 PM

To be fair, though, he doesn't really angst anymore. These days he's going for kind of a Stone Cold Stoic Samurai style.

Besides, you try having every single relative killed, seeing your parents murdered before your eyes, and getting mentally tortured in general by your psycho older brother and see how chipper you are after that.

yeah... but Sasuke acts like his pain is so much greater than Naruto--who was pretty much hated, despised, and ostracized from the day he was born.

I'm honestly not convinced that Sasuke's singular horrific experience outstrips Naruto's lifetime of misery (roughly 12-14 years) and being despised should be weighed against each other like video game points. Sasuke, whenever confronted with other people's problems pretty much ignores them or acts like his experience is exponentially worse.

look at the time when he threatened Kakashi with "what if somebody killed all of your loved ones?" and Kakashi quietly said, "all of the people I cared for the most have ALREADY been murdered". or something like that.

Sasuke is self-centered, competitive, monomaniacal, and simply uses everybody around him to get what he wants. in this sense, he's just as manipulative and ego-centric as Orochimaru; just as treacherous and malicious as Kabuto... and, well....

add to the fact that his use of the Sharingan has none of the drawbacks that Itachi or Kakashi have to contend with. he gets a lot of "freebies"... for example, mastering the taijutsu that Lee learned in just a month? it took Lee YEARS to master that style--and Sasuke gets it all done in one month? to make matters worse he also learns Kakashi's trademark chidori (from the creator himself, I'll grant). if he'd attained Lee's level in one month, but lacked the stamina, I could accept that. but then getting the Chidori as well?!?!?

Naruto and Sasuke both have this bad habit of pulling wins out of thin air, even when they're "all out of chakra". at least Naruto has a demonic plot device in his chest--so it's, sorta believable... but when Sasuke's sharingan can copy "Orochimaru's healing powers" it gets kinda ridiculous. particularly since Orochimaru didn't have those powers--it was Kabuto, right?

I don't like Sasuke because he doesn't have any weaknesses. he's actually more boring than Superman/Clark Kent for me--at least Clark Kent has people that he truly loves and cares for that can be used as leverage against him. Sasuke doesn't even have that. just imagine Superman not having a weakness towards kryptonite AND not caring about anybody else.

super-dick, indeed!

Totoro Man

11-16-2007, 07:52 PM

Kage Kisaragi

11-16-2007, 09:18 PM

Please feel free to skip over all of this, its me just speaking my opinion after all. :)

okay im gonna jump in here and be serious for a second.

I don't see this equal thing pre-timeskip people are talking about. Naruto had nothing on Sasuke. Fact everyone knew Kyuubi was in Naruto except Naruto, so its not like Sasuke didn't know how that might influence or would eventually influence Naruto, hell anyone with half a brain should have seen that coming. Yet for the benefit of the doubt let's assume no one but Jiraiya and the other higher ups could see this little slight.

Sasuke was still better than Naruto in Taijutsu and Ninjutsu. Naruto spent most of his time pre-timeskip learning half finished techniques and coming up with useless ones. The only saving grace he had and still heavily relys on is the Kage Bushin and we all saw how effective that was against Sasuke.

While the Rasengan is definitely a more powerful technique that the baseline Chidori its the fact that the Chidori is a mobile technique while the Rasengan unless modified (like by having a clone form it for you while your in motion or last minute.) isn't. This atleast gave Sasuke at least one tactical advantage over Naruto's signiture powerhouse technique. The two times Naruto formed a Rasengan ala his own power seem to be synoumous with using Kyuubi and Sasuke still over came that with Cursed Seal 2.

I really don't see the hate for Sasuke here as something Sasuke brought about on his own. The guy had a teacher who pretty much gave him free reign in terms of honing his abilities, who would have taught him anything he wanted to learn so as to help increase his power, who would give him the utmost skill/power/speed enhancing training he could handle and then some. Jiraiya as it has been said before helpped Naruto control as much of his power from Kiyuubi as he could, and for all intensive purposes he is very powerful for it. So Sasuke came up with a counter measure, there is no way of saying that Counter measure will always be available or will work 100% of the time, not to mention we are only talking about one character here. It's not like Sasuke told every ninja he came across how to stop Naruto (not that they could even if he did.) yet everyone is making it sound like Sasuke is actting out of character because of his ability to come up with something on the spot. (Hello that's been his trademark since part 1.)

Sure I admit, he has gone under some changes, but did he actually go looking for Naruto in the first place during those 2 1/2 years? No, Did he ask for anyone to come save him? No, is it impossible for a kid who mimiced Rock Lee's Technique/Speed almost perfectly within the same time period he saw it to further prove that he will stop at nothing until he becomes as strong as possible? I don't think its out of the question that under Orochimaru's training Sasuke became a beastly powerful character. Look at what Orochimaru was able to do with the Sound Genin, who besides the Sand Genin were obviously the next most dangerous group during the examines. Then look at what he did with the sound 4, especially what he must have helpped Kimimaro accomplish, especially since Kimimaro would have been dead on the night the rest of his clan dead had he not been spared and what was it? Get buried under the corpses of his clansmen? How about Kabuto anyone? Whatever Orochimaru does to people whether its personal tutelage or not, he helps people become very powerful.

The difference between Naruto's abilities and Sasuke has always been huge, Do you think Kakashi is stupid? He saw the difference the first time he tested them during the bell examine. Samething during there first mission too. Outside of the movies it was pretty much always Sasuke who had the either the right idea or got the ball rolling in the right direction and then comes Naruto following up with Kyuubi obviously to steal the win and the glory. Honestly I don't see how Sasuke put up with it as long as he did. I'd say Naruto was more of a hinderance to Sasuke than anything else, had it not been for Itachi's scorning him and his smack down on Sasuke, Sasuke would have never grown as much as he has. Why? Because Naruto has dumbing down effect on people. Sure it has its positive side effect like as Tsunade puts it. "the power of bringing people together." or "Making you want to place your hopes on him." It's generally because he's dumbed you down to the point where you aren't component enough to do it yourself so have to rely on him being the main character to save the day.

Instead of trying to compare apples to oranges, why not compare Naruto to people who are obviously meant to be in his current league. He's obviously heads above the class compared to the other Chunnins though he isn't one himself. I'm not exactly sure what the manga has down for Naruto as of right now, but even with the all awesome stuff Sasuke is doing in it supposedly, I don't see any of it making Sasuke look worse, if anything it only illustrates how different the two are when it comes to progressing forward. Sasuke goes up quicker but doesn't have the obvious safety net of "it's my show." to fall back on, or in fiction terms "Kyuubi!" and yes im considering the fact that people are mentioning that Sasuke countered this deus ex machina some how. Still that just further proves that the author is more than likely setting Naruto up for lots of growth else wise in his own abilities. Is this a good thing? Probably, and was it timed well? More than likely considering its a on going Manga moving into the second stage of the story.

I think Sasuke deserves more praise than hate considering he's pushing his abilities to heights others in his clan were either to stupid to realize or were just to affraid to attempt. Itachi might have known about the Mangekyo and wanted its power but how far has he really pushed the other abilities of his clan? We don't know for sure but at least through Sasuke we can see that the Sharingan even without using the Mangekyo is something to be feared. This is probably the same reason why Orochimaru wanted them as well.

If anyone in Naruto deserves some hate it should be .... Konohamaru. :p

Kage Kisaragi

11-16-2007, 09:22 PM

that reminds me, that Naruto has this special power to make friends with people--yes, it indeed is very lame. Nausicaa also has this same tendency--and it's equally lame. I hate characters who are so good natured, loyal, and kind-hearted that they naturally tend to earn everybody's admiration and respect-- they suck! ;)

and you know what I hate more?

emo bastards who don't care about anybody but themselves. I think Kakashi even says, that people who abandon their comrades are the biggest losers and douche-bags in the world... that's a paraphrase, mind you! :rolleyes:

actually Kakashi was the other way around until a friend died for him.
Kakashi wanted nothing more than to follow rules and regulations, even if it meant abandoning his Teammates, (which consequently almost happend when Rin got captured and Kakashi wanted to leave her. Of course Obito wanted to hear nothing of this.) anyway Kakashi eventually learned his lesson. Sasuke on the other hand didn't have any such tragedies befall his team and I doubt in comparison to what he had already seen it would have made much difference.

Also I wish people would stop calling him Emo, because he isn't. People are seeing something that isn't there, he isn't depressed and whining pathically about his plight, he's being very much proactive and wants nothing more than pay back for whats been dealt to him at the hands of Itachi. a Emo kid would have quit being a ninja and just sat around depressed. Crying and telling everyone who'd listen about the very same thing that is making the real Sasuke determined and strong. A emo kid wouldn't do much anything but depress everyone around him which obviously isn't Sasuke's intention since he isn't bragging about his problems to everyone within ear shot range. Sasuke might be a Vindictive Batman-lite with a hint of ruthlessness but thats all the more credit to his character.

Sasuke is just being exactly what most people have come to recognize as a perfect arch-hero type. He's basically a anything goes instrument of vengence and I think he's become a little bit conceded in the process, but then again he beat people who others in his age range never stoud chance of defeating, so I guess that comes with the territory.

Guy1

11-16-2007, 09:28 PM

Please feel free to skip over all of this, its me just speaking my opinion after all. :)

okay im gonna jump in here and be serious for a second.

I don't see this equal thing pre-timeskip people are talking about. Naruto had nothing on Sasuke seriously. Fact Everyone knew Kyuubi was in Naruto except Naruto, so its not like Sasuke didn't know how that might influence or would eventually influence Naruto, hell anyone with half a brain should have seen that coming. Yet for the benefit of the doubt that assume no one but Juraiya and the other higher ups figured this out.

Sasuke was still better than Naruto in Taijutsu and Ninjutsu. Naruto spent most of his time pre-timeskip learning half finished techniques and coming up with useless ones. The only saving Grace he had and still heavily relys on is the Kage Bushin and we all saw how effective that was against Sasuke.

While the Rasengan is definitely a more powerful technique that the baseline Chidori its the fact that the Chidori is a mobile technique while the Rasengan unless modified (like by having a clone form it for you while your in motion or last minute.) isn't. This atleast gave Sasuke atleast one tactical advantage over Naruto's signiture powerhouse technique. The two times Naruto formed a Rasengan ala his own power seem to be synomous with using Kyuubi and Sasuke still over came that with Cursed Seal 2.

I really don't see the hate for Sasuke here as being something Sasuke brought about on his own. The guy had a teacher who pretty much gave him free reign in terms of honing his abilities, would have taught him anything he wanted to learn so as to help increase his power, would give him the utmost skill/power/speed enhancing training he could handle and then some. Jiraiya as it has been said before helpped Naruto control as much of his power from Kiyuubi as he could, and for all intensive purposes he is very powerful for it. So Sasuke came up with a counter measure, there is no way of saying that Counter measure will always be available or will work 100% of the time, not to mention we are only talking about one character here. It's not like Sasuke told every ninja he came across how to stop Naruto (not that they could even if he did.) yet everyone is making it sound like Sasuke is actting out of character.

Sure I admit, he has gone under some changes, but did he actually go looking for Naruto in the first place during those 2 1/2 years? No, Did he ask for anyone to come save him? No, is it impossible for a kid who mimiced Rock Lee's Technique/Speed almost perfectly within the same time period he saw it? I don't think its out of the question that under Orochimaru's training Sasuke became a beastly powerful character, look at what Orochimaru was able to do with the Sound Genin, who besides the Sand Genin was obviously the next most dangerous group during the examines. Then look at what he did with the sound 4, especially what he must have helpped Kimimaro. Kabuto anyone? Whatever Orochimaru does to people whether its personal tutelage or not, he helps people become very powerful.

The difference between Naruto's abilities and Sasuke has always been huge, you think Kakashi is stupid? He saw the difference the first time he tested them during the bell examines, samething during there first mission, outside of the moves it was pretty much always Sasuke who had the either the right idea or got the ball rolling in the right direction and then Naruto following up with Kyuubi obviously to steal the win and the glory. Honestly I don't see how Sasuke put it with it as long as he did, I'd say Naruto was more of a hinderance to Sasuke than anything else, had it not been for Itachi scorning and his smack down on Sasuke, would have never grown as much as he has because Naruto has dumbing down effect on people. Sure it has its positive side effect like as Tsunade puts it. "the power of bringing people together." or "placing on your hopes on him." it generally because he's dumbed you down to the point where you aren't compotent enough to do it yourself so you gonna rely on his being the main character to save the day.

Instead of trying to compare Apples to Oranges, why not compare Naruto to people who are obviously meant to be in his current league.. he's obviously head of the class compared to the other Chunnins though he isn't one himself. I'm not exactly sure what the manga has down for naruto as of right now, but even with the all awesome stuff Sasuke is doing in it supposedly now, I don't see any of it making Sasuke look worse, if anything it only illustrates how different the two are when it comes to progressiing forward. Sasuke goes up quicker but doesn't have the obvious safety net of "it's my show." to fall back on, or in fiction version "Kyuubi!" and yes im consider the fact that people are mentioning that Sasuke countered this deus exmachina some how, but that just furthere proves that the author is more than likely setting Naruto up for lots of growth else wise in his own abilities. Is this a good thing? Probably, and was it timed well? More than likely considering its a on going Manga moving into the second stage of the story.

I think Sasuke deserves more praise than hate, considering he's pushing his abilities to heights others in his clan were either to stupid to realize or were just to affraid to attempt. Itachi might have known about Mangekyo and wanted its power but how far has he really pushed the other abilities of his clan? ... We don't know for sure but atleast through Sasuke we can see that the Sharingan even without using the Mangekyo is something to be feared. This is probably the exactly same reason why Orochimaru wanted them as well.

If anyone in Naruto deserves some hate it should be .... Konohamaru. :p

Putting my distate for Sasuke aside, you win the internet.

superbatman86

11-16-2007, 10:31 PM

superbatman86

11-16-2007, 10:37 PM

yeah... but Sasuke acts like his pain is so much greater than Naruto--who was pretty much hated, despised, and ostracized from the day he was born.

I'm honestly not convinced that Sasuke's singular horrific experience outstrips Naruto's lifetime of misery (roughly 12-14 years) and being despised should be weighed against each other like video game points. Sasuke, whenever confronted with other people's problems pretty much ignores them or acts like his experience is exponentially worse.

look at the time when he threatened Kakashi with "what if somebody killed all of your loved ones?" and Kakashi quietly said, "all of the people I cared for the most have ALREADY been murdered". or something like that.

Sasuke is self-centered, competitive, monomaniacal, and simply uses everybody around him to get what he wants. in this sense, he's just as manipulative and ego-centric as Orochimaru; just as treacherous and malicious as Kabuto... and, well....

add to the fact that his use of the Sharingan has none of the drawbacks that Itachi or Kakashi have to contend with. he gets a lot of "freebies"... for example, mastering the taijutsu that Lee learned in just a month? it took Lee YEARS to master that style--and Sasuke gets it all done in one month? to make matters worse he also learns Kakashi's trademark chidori (from the creator himself, I'll grant). if he'd attained Lee's level in one month, but lacked the stamina, I could accept that. but then getting the Chidori as well?!?!?

Naruto and Sasuke both have this bad habit of pulling wins out of thin air, even when they're "all out of chakra". at least Naruto has a demonic plot device in his chest--so it's, sorta believable... but when Sasuke's sharingan can copy "Orochimaru's healing powers" it gets kinda ridiculous. particularly since Orochimaru didn't have those powers--it was Kabuto, right?

I don't like Sasuke because he doesn't have any weaknesses. he's actually more boring than Superman/Clark Kent for me--at least Clark Kent has people that he truly loves and cares for that can be used as leverage against him. Sasuke doesn't even have that. just imagine Superman not having a weakness towards kryptonite AND not caring about anybody else.

super-dick, indeed!Naruto was never really alone.He always had the 3rd hokage and Iruka there for him.And yes having everyone you've ever known and loved killed by the person you loved the most is way worse than going a few years alone.And even Kakashi's crappy past isn't as bad as Sasuke's.Only Gaara can claim to have had it as bad or worse than Sasuke.

Kage Kisaragi

11-16-2007, 11:04 PM

Putting my distate for Sasuke aside, you win the internet.

I'm surprised anyone even made heads of tails out of that, I went back and edited it so that its a little more readable.

Ghost

11-17-2007, 02:01 AM

No it wouldn't. And no it wouldn't make him any more unique, it would make him predictible and boring.

How so? I would have been surprised. I don't think I've ever seen that happen, and I've seen a lot.

Face it, Sasuke is a lot of things, but he isn't special as far as his archetype goes.

Have you read the chapters, Sasuke had planned this before he left the village. He's not taking no chances by mulling it over. And Sasuke cut bonds with his former friends so they wouldn't be in danger, so no stop procrastinating

Procrastinating? :confused:

Are you sure that's the word you meant to use?

Well by the end of Naruto, he's still acting like a douche-nozzle. In Shippuden he hasn't even made enough of an appearance to tell if he's the "stoic samurai", which I'm sure he won't be. He'll still be a whiny bitch.

Good to know you're not biased, eh? :rolleyes:

Nah he had a reason. The people of Konoha wanted him to work and actually train for his power.
Orochi's group just said 'pledge loyalty to Orochimaru and you'll get power ups quicker.'
He's still a freaking douche-bag, and it's a bullcrap reason, but he had one.

That's what I'm saying. I know he had a reason. It just wasn't a good one. Frankly, I think he's a pretty weak character all around. Let the flame-war begin.

What do you mean, it wasn't a good reason? It worked, didn't it?

So far, Sasuke has achived exactly what he wanted to achieve. No one can argue that leaving Konoha and joining Orochimaru didn't make him stronger.

Please feel free to skip over all of this, its me just speaking my opinion after all. :)

okay im gonna jump in here and be serious for a second.

I don't see this equal thing pre-timeskip people are talking about. Naruto had nothing on Sasuke. Fact everyone knew Kyuubi was in Naruto except Naruto, so its not like Sasuke didn't know how that might influence or would eventually influence Naruto, hell anyone with half a brain should have seen that coming. Yet for the benefit of the doubt let's assume no one but Jiraiya and the other higher ups could see this little slight.

Sasuke was still better than Naruto in Taijutsu and Ninjutsu. Naruto spent most of his time pre-timeskip learning half finished techniques and coming up with useless ones. The only saving grace he had and still heavily relys on is the Kage Bushin and we all saw how effective that was against Sasuke.

While the Rasengan is definitely a more powerful technique that the baseline Chidori its the fact that the Chidori is a mobile technique while the Rasengan unless modified (like by having a clone form it for you while your in motion or last minute.) isn't. This atleast gave Sasuke at least one tactical advantage over Naruto's signiture powerhouse technique. The two times Naruto formed a Rasengan ala his own power seem to be synoumous with using Kyuubi and Sasuke still over came that with Cursed Seal 2.

I really don't see the hate for Sasuke here as something Sasuke brought about on his own. The guy had a teacher who pretty much gave him free reign in terms of honing his abilities, who would have taught him anything he wanted to learn so as to help increase his power, who would give him the utmost skill/power/speed enhancing training he could handle and then some. Jiraiya as it has been said before helpped Naruto control as much of his power from Kiyuubi as he could, and for all intensive purposes he is very powerful for it. So Sasuke came up with a counter measure, there is no way of saying that Counter measure will always be available or will work 100% of the time, not to mention we are only talking about one character here. It's not like Sasuke told every ninja he came across how to stop Naruto (not that they could even if he did.) yet everyone is making it sound like Sasuke is actting out of character because of his ability to come up with something on the spot. (Hello that's been his trademark since part 1.)

Sure I admit, he has gone under some changes, but did he actually go looking for Naruto in the first place during those 2 1/2 years? No, Did he ask for anyone to come save him? No, is it impossible for a kid who mimiced Rock Lee's Technique/Speed almost perfectly within the same time period he saw it to further prove that he will stop at nothing until he becomes as strong as possible? I don't think its out of the question that under Orochimaru's training Sasuke became a beastly powerful character. Look at what Orochimaru was able to do with the Sound Genin, who besides the Sand Genin were obviously the next most dangerous group during the examines. Then look at what he did with the sound 4, especially what he must have helpped Kimimaro accomplish, especially since Kimimaro would have been dead on the night the rest of his clan dead had he not been spared and what was it? Get buried under the corpses of his clansmen? How about Kabuto anyone? Whatever Orochimaru does to people whether its personal tutelage or not, he helps people become very powerful.

The difference between Naruto's abilities and Sasuke has always been huge, Do you think Kakashi is stupid? He saw the difference the first time he tested them during the bell examine. Samething during there first mission too. Outside of the movies it was pretty much always Sasuke who had the either the right idea or got the ball rolling in the right direction and then comes Naruto following up with Kyuubi obviously to steal the win and the glory. Honestly I don't see how Sasuke put up with it as long as he did. I'd say Naruto was more of a hinderance to Sasuke than anything else, had it not been for Itachi's scorning him and his smack down on Sasuke, Sasuke would have never grown as much as he has. Why? Because Naruto has dumbing down effect on people. Sure it has its positive side effect like as Tsunade puts it. "the power of bringing people together." or "Making you want to place your hopes on him." It's generally because he's dumbed you down to the point where you aren't component enough to do it yourself so have to rely on him being the main character to save the day.

Instead of trying to compare apples to oranges, why not compare Naruto to people who are obviously meant to be in his current league. He's obviously heads above the class compared to the other Chunnins though he isn't one himself. I'm not exactly sure what the manga has down for Naruto as of right now, but even with the all awesome stuff Sasuke is doing in it supposedly, I don't see any of it making Sasuke look worse, if anything it only illustrates how different the two are when it comes to progressing forward. Sasuke goes up quicker but doesn't have the obvious safety net of "it's my show." to fall back on, or in fiction terms "Kyuubi!" and yes im considering the fact that people are mentioning that Sasuke countered this deus ex machina some how. Still that just further proves that the author is more than likely setting Naruto up for lots of growth else wise in his own abilities. Is this a good thing? Probably, and was it timed well? More than likely considering its a on going Manga moving into the second stage of the story.

I think Sasuke deserves more praise than hate considering he's pushing his abilities to heights others in his clan were either to stupid to realize or were just to affraid to attempt. Itachi might have known about the Mangekyo and wanted its power but how far has he really pushed the other abilities of his clan? We don't know for sure but at least through Sasuke we can see that the Sharingan even without using the Mangekyo is something to be feared. This is probably the same reason why Orochimaru wanted them as well.

If anyone in Naruto deserves some hate it should be .... Konohamaru. :p

If I'm to nitpic: Sasuke didn't know about the Kyuubi. It was stated that only the adults who'd survived the attack knew about it. The younger generation hated Naruto mostly only because the adults did.

Other then that, you're pretty spot on.

Kage Kisaragi

11-17-2007, 04:08 AM

How so? I would have been surprised. I don't think I've ever seen that happen, and I've seen a lot.

Face it, Sasuke is a lot of things, but he isn't special as far as his archetype goes.

Procrastinating? :confused:

Are you sure that's the word you meant to use?

Good to know you're not biased, eh? :rolleyes:

What do you mean, it wasn't a good reason? It worked, didn't it?

So far, Sasuke has achived exactly what he wanted to achieve. No one can argue that leaving Konoha and joining Orochimaru didn't make him stronger.

If I'm to nitpic: Sasuke didn't know about the Kyuubi. It was stated that only the adults who'd survived the attack knew about it. The younger generation hated Naruto mostly only because the adults did.

Other then that, you're pretty spot on.

You're right, I forgot about that part.

Maikofan

11-17-2007, 06:20 AM

Well by the end of Naruto, he's still acting like a douche-nozzle. In Shippuden he hasn't even made enough of an appearance to tell if he's the "stoic samurai", which I'm sure he won't be. He'll still be a whiny bitch. (I don't read the comic, btw)

"Waaa, I wanna kill my brother. I don't want any help from anybody. Waaaa. I'm just going to run off on my own and eat worms. WAAAA!"

And I'm not saying the guy has to be all sunshine and lollipops after what his character has been through. I'm just saying the character is a totally whiny, weak-ass bitch about the whole thing. He's just a fool. He had a number of people ready to step up and help him with his problems, and he shuns them FOR NO GOOD REASON.

What kind of guy is that? A douche-bag. That's what.

Edit: Come to think of it, there's a running theme of whiny characters with "tragic" back stories in Naruto. Does every evil character have to have some kind of F'd up parental issues? It's getting really tired. Oh, and this whole thing where Naruto has this "special ability" to make people his friends is ridiculous and lame as hell.When has Sasuke ever whined to anybody about his problems, I why does Sasuke have to be some sort of morally up tight cunt like the rest, because it makes you feel better or something, Sasuke always lived in the shadows he's a byronic hero and a anti thesis to Naruto.

If your expecting some sort of happy ending in this story your wrong, in Sasuke's base he lost everything, plus your bwing totally unfair and baised on the Character Sasuke gives everything up including his life to kill his traitous brother, and thats not something whiny ass bitches to, thats something Badass Mcawesome people do, he's an avenging shinobi with his own sense of justice, and being a douchebag is part of that trait.

I don't why you hate Sasuke for take his own iniatitive. I don't why you guys hate Sasuke for being a free moral agent.

Plus he worked for his Sharigan skills, he was born with potenial talent, and you shun him for it, he was born with intelliegence and you despise him for it, he was born with popularity and you hate him for it. Sometimes I wonder, do you all hate Sasuke because he repressents all the jerks and popular people that walked all over you all when you were growing up thus relate to Lee and Naruto much more?

Because that seems the case.

And for the people who said Sasuke had it better when he whole family was killed in his eyes, no he did no, Naruto at least never experiend loss, Sasuke did and thats far more tramatic than being alone and shunned for no reason, Sasuke has had figuritively lost everything and everyone he cares about, because his family was his pride and joy you think he;s going to open up and start hanging with shallow people he doesn't know about, surely you jest.

yeah... but Sasuke acts like his pain is so much greater than Naruto--who was pretty much hated, despised, and ostracized from the day he was born.You seem to not get the meaning of loss over lonelyness, naruto had it bad but it didn't scar Naruto for life. Naruto never knew what it was like to expereince personal loss, Sasuke has and that holds more ground since Sasuke was raised as someones trophy for the village.

I'm honestly not convinced that Sasuke's singular horrific experience outstrips Naruto's lifetime of misery (roughly 12-14 years) and being despised should be weighed against each other like video game points. Sasuke, whenever confronted with other people's problems pretty much ignores them or acts like his experience is exponentially worse.Nobody gave a shit about Sasuke's problems, all Sasuke did was train and get strong for himself, he had no bonds and was constanly praised for the wrong reasons, superficial reasons. Again Itachi killed his whole clan including his mom and dad, in his eyes and that scared him and screwed him up emotionally. How can you not feel sorry for him you heartless douche bag!!!!! LOL. He lost his mom, not by a random stranger but his own flesh and blood, and don't say you'd get over it, you won't because you'd be raring to go out and kill your brother too.

look at the time when he threatened Kakashi with "what if somebody killed all of your loved ones?" and Kakashi quietly said, "all of the people I cared for the most have ALREADY been murdered". or something like that.Sasuke had parents and cousins and relatives, Kakashi has friends and thats that, which carries more weight, Sasuke has every right to carry out his revenge since nothing beats the love of a mothers embrace IMO.

Sasuke is self-centered, competitive, monomaniacal, and simply uses everybody around him to get what he wants.Sasuke's a ninja, and this is a problem how? He's only doing what he needs to survive. Thats originally a real ninja's purpose. in this sense, he's just as manipulative and ego-centric as Orochimaru; just as treacherous and malicious as Kabuto... and, well....Well that why I love him, because he's not a sterotype like the others and a morally corupted smuck, he's better than the best tougher than the rest and will do what ever he wants when he wants.

add to the fact that his use of the Sharingan has none of the drawbacks that Itachi or Kakashi have to contend with.Itachi has no drawbacks either with his sharigan, stop being so judgemental and read the fucking manga, your posts are purely irrational to bash one character negative flaws. he gets a lot of "freebies"... for example, mastering the taijutsu that Lee learned in just a month?It's part of his bloodline, why wouldn't he use it, you act like ninja originally have a code of honor, pride and values that they have to abide by in order to prove there worth, Sasuke bending the rules for his own advantage is the reason he's a ninja in the first place, if everybody place fair like Lee or Naruto, they'd wouldn't be ninja's. it took Lee YEARS to master that style--and Sasuke gets it all done in one month?Duh, Sasuke's genius, Lee has no talent or brains. I don't see how this is a bad thing. to make matters worse he also learns Kakashi's trademark chidori (from the creator himself, I'll grant).Now your just being a incredible sore loser, Sasuke learned Chidori just like Naruto learned Rasangan which was Jiraya's original Jutsu, why your saying Sasuke is lame for knowing a jutsu his sensei knows? if he'd attained Lee's level in one month, but lacked the stamina, I could accept that. but then getting the Chidori as well?!?!?I see, your a big ass hyporcrite, Sasuke character is always growing and expanding, it what makes the character Sasuke, well Sasuke. He worked for those jutsu, why he's a genius, a prodigy and a incredible fighter. Plus he has one of the most famous bloodlines in konoha.

Naruto and Sasuke both have this bad habit of pulling wins out of thin air, even when they're "all out of chakra". at least Naruto has a demonic plot device in his chest--so it's, sorta believable... NO it's pure PNJ, like him regenerating and going feral and destroying everything even the most concertrared attacks and bypassing them by sheer force of habit. but when Sasuke's sharingan can copy "Orochimaru's healing powers" it gets kinda ridiculous. particularly since Orochimaru didn't have those powers--it was Kabuto, right?How is Sasuke's copying Oro's Jutsu, rediculous? It was mainly designed that way. Oro has the "whit snake" abilty which is a jutsu that allows him to regenerate and heal himself, and since Sasuke is Orochimaru's desiple, it makes alot of sense him using it's properties.

I don't like Sasuke because he doesn't have any weaknesses.Yes he does, all character have a weaknessm it's just that Sasuke's so good and exceptional in his profession and is a total genius he's seem invincible, he's lucky and doesn't screw the fuck up like some others, don't mean he's omnipotent and flawless, he's like Itachi and true Genius Shinobi. Plus have you read Part One and the Dei fight at all? I have to say he struggled more than he ever did in part 2, he was trying to keep himself and Deidara alive and that proved most difficult, I don't know where you get the assumption Sasuke's invincible. Or your just being irrational because you just hate Sasuke again. he's actually more boring than Superman/Clark Kent for me--at least Clark Kent has people that he truly loves and cares for that can be used as leverage against him.Superman is not boring neither is Sasuke, both are just a awe inspiring characters with tons of surprises and total wonder. Sasuke doesn't even have that.Ahem, Naruto, Sakura, Kakashi, his mom his dad. You are so wrong buddy, or you just are so egotistical you refuse to see the good points of this character. just imagine Superman not having a weakness towards kryptonite AND not caring about anybody else.Whatever, it seem most of you who dislike Sasuke, have either self moralistic values you grew up with or Jealous or simply don't care, either way I still don't get why Sasuke is unfairly hated, all I've seen is baised and non infomative answers, which make you no different from the character you hate.

For the record, I think Sasuke is a exciting character and wouldn't read the manga if he didn't exist.

Naruto is a boring main character, and I rather have Sasuke and his stric, linear personaltiy as the main protagonist than a character that uses pokemon for fighting.

super-man, indeed!fixed and I agree.

Alex L

11-17-2007, 07:25 AM

I don't why you hate Sasuke for take his own iniatitive. I don't why you guys hate Sasuke for being a free moral agent.

Plus he worked for his Sharigan skills, he was born with potenial talent, and you shun him for it, he was born with intelliegence and you despise him for it, he was born with popularity and you hate him for it. Sometimes I wonder, do you all hate Sasuke because he repressents all the jerks and popular people that walked all over you all when you were growing up thus relate to Lee and Naruto much more?

Because that seems the case.

Yep.

I hate Sasuke because I was picked on in high school by all the jocks. Good to know you've got me all figured out. :rolleyes:

Is it that hard a concept, that his Sharingan eyes are a deus-ex-machina plot device and people don't like that?

I consider it bad writing, when you have to add herefore-unmentioned powers this late in the game to save the character. His chakra microvision, his Kyuubi-sealing abilities, I don't remember the circumstances of his beating Orochimaru but IIRC it was once again OMG Sharingan Auto Wins.

It's like writing Superman to get by a weakness using his New Turn-Red-Suns-Into-Yellow power he was given by Mr. Mxypzptlk. Sure, within the confines of the story the granting of the power makes sense, but it's still insipid.

Bakasama

11-17-2007, 07:41 AM

super-dick, indeed!

Sasuke on parody superdickery covers? You may be on to something!

With all this discussion about it's starting to remind me about the complaints about Eragon.

Maikofan

11-17-2007, 07:45 AM

Yep.

I hate Sasuke because I was picked on in high school by all the jocks. Good to know you've got me all figured out. :rolleyes:

Is it that hard a concept, that his Sharingan eyes are a deus-ex-machina plot device and people don't like that?

I consider it bad writing, when you have to add herefore-unmentioned powers this late in the game to save the character. His chakra microvision, his Kyuubi-sealing abilities, I don't remember the circumstances of his beating Orochimaru but IIRC it was once again OMG Sharingan Auto Wins.

It's like writing Superman to get by a weakness using his New Turn-Red-Suns-Into-Yellow power he was given by Mr. Mxypzptlk. Sure, within the confines of the story the granting of the power makes sense, but it's still insipid.Not bad writing, just vague build up, every manga has this like Luffy's Gears or Ichigo's Viazard. Even Naruto has this, I mean since when could the Kyuubi shoot black orbs from it's mouth?

Sharigan eyes are Sharigan eyes, and Itachi and Sasuke are the last of their kind, which is way the Uchiha is extinct, because there bloodline dwarfs thw other Kekei Genkai.

Rememer when itachi beat Oro with his genjutsu, same with Sasuke, they're one of a kind, powerful geniuses.

Plus, your being kinda of ignnorant, you should have known that Sasuke could do stuff like this due to his role in this manga and being a successor of old school ninja's. It's called a plot build up.

And it's most likely Sasuke had these powers and could use them to his advantage before he knew about them, I'm sure he could have invented these Techniques over time skip. Chakra Surpression and Microcopic sight is probably something he invented with the sharigan like his variations.

It's just like Naruto molding Futton with his wind based jutsu to create FRS, his own creation and inventive prowess, Kakashi said that Naruto's generation would surpass the old. Why can't it be applied for Sasuke, why does it have to be out of the ass PIS to you.

Of coruse Sasuke's Part2 databook hasn't come out so this is all speculation. Only kishi knows why Sasuke can use all these sharigan powers.

Kage Kisaragi

11-17-2007, 08:01 AM

Yep.

I hate Sasuke because I was picked on in high school by all the jocks. Good to know you've got me all figured out. :rolleyes:

Is it that hard a concept, that his Sharingan eyes are a deus-ex-machina plot device and people don't like that?

I consider it bad writing, when you have to add herefore-unmentioned powers this late in the game to save the character. His chakra microvision, his Kyuubi-sealing abilities, I don't remember the circumstances of his beating Orochimaru but IIRC it was once again OMG Sharingan Auto Wins.

It's like writing Superman to get by a weakness using his New Turn-Red-Suns-Into-Yellow power he was given by Mr. Mxypzptlk. Sure, within the confines of the story the granting of the power makes sense, but it's still insipid.

If his Sharingan is a Deus Ex-Machina then so is every other Kekkei Genkei the story. Who says any of this stuff is new? Itachi main reason for what he did is that he felt his clan because to complacent with themselves, no one was striving to better than selves, to push their abilities higher. Itachi saw only one other Uchiha who might break this habit and that was Sasuke hence he spared him. So Sasuke uncovering new applications for his Kekkei Genkei isn't exactly Making up new stuff on the authors part. Since there were no Uchiha clan members in the village to fully explain ALL the potiental as well as documented abilities of the Sharingan. Kakashi isn't an authority because his isn't tied to his bloodline and he can only comment on what he himself has experienced. Hell it wasn't until part two he even began trying to improve his eye. So who's to say what the abilities of the Sharingan are. The point is, no one but Sasuke and maybe Madara who have pushed their abilities this far. It's not late in the game, its a midway point. Also There kids of course they are gonna grow and learn more things as they get older, but the best ones will learn a lot more a lot sooner.

Ghost

11-17-2007, 08:17 AM

When has Sasuke ever whined to anybody about his problems, I why does Sasuke have to be some sort of morally up tight cunt like the rest, because it makes you feel better or something, Sasuke always lived in the shadows he's a byronic hero and a anti thesis to Naruto.

Byronic hero? Hah! Try anti-hero.

His credentials for heroism pretty much got tossed out the window when he decided to challange Naruto for nothing but selfish reasons and then join Konohagakura's greatest enemy.

Sasuke is not a suffering, misunderstood outcast, he's exactly what he appears to be: a very angry individual who became so consumed by his desire for revenge that he willingly shunned love, friendship and loyalty in his quest for power.

I don't why you hate Sasuke for take his own iniatitive. I don't why you guys hate Sasuke for being a free moral agent.

You don't quite a lot of things, don't you?

Plus he worked for his Sharigan skills, he was born with potenial talent, and you shun him for it, he was born with intelliegence and you despise him for it, he was born with popularity and you hate him for it. Sometimes I wonder, do you all hate Sasuke because he repressents all the jerks and popular people that walked all over you all when you were growing up thus relate to Lee and Naruto much more?

Oi. That's bellow the belt, Maikofan. Settle down.

Let's be serious here: this is a comic book forum. If you think you'll find a lot of people here who share your admiration for "the popular ones", you are very, very wrong.

Hell, even if you're right, what does that say? That he represents people who wronged us and possess traits we dislike? Why the hell would we ever admire someone like that?

You seem to not get the meaning of loss over lonelyness, naruto had it bad but it didn't scar Naruto for life. Naruto never knew what it was like to expereince personal loss, Sasuke has and that holds more ground since Sasuke was raised as someones trophy for the village.

Naruto wasn't just lonely. He had an actual stigma. People hated him for his entire life and refused to let him know why. That's the kind of thing that chrushes the soul of a human being.

If anything, I say this makes Naruto stronger then Sasuke. At least he defined his existance according to what he wanted to be, not what someone else tried to make him.

Nobody gave a shit about Sasuke's problems,

Except, you know, Naruto.

Once Sasuke decided to let him close enough, anyway.

Sasuke's a ninja, and this is a problem how? He's only doing what he needs to survive. Thats originally a real ninja's purpose. Well that why I love him, because he's not a sterotype like the others and a morally corupted smuck, he's better than the best tougher than the rest and will do what ever he wants when he wants.

Ergo, an anti-hero of questionable morals. Glad we got that sorted out.

Whatever, it seem most of you who dislike Sasuke, have either self moralistic values you grew up with or Jealous or simply don't care, either way I still don't get why Sasuke is unfairly hated, all I've seen is baised and non infomative answers, which make you no different from the character you hate.

First: Did you just refer to Sasuke as a biased, uniformed and unfair hater?

Second: Will you cut down on the antagonism? You might have more success in convincing these people of your standpoint if you weren't so darn judgemental.

For the record, I think Sasuke is a exciting character and wouldn't read the manga if he didn't exist.

Yes, you have made this abundantly clear.

Is it that hard a concept, that his Sharingan eyes are a deus-ex-machina plot device and people don't like that?.

Eh. I'd have an easier time buying this reasoning if the Sasuke hate didn't go all the way back to pre-timeskip.

Again, stacking the odds against the hero = common storytelling practice. As for bad writing, i admit that the whole deal about summoning Manda despite being critically low on chakra was pretty bad, but I'm fairly okay with the rest of his feats.

Alex L

11-17-2007, 08:25 AM

Not bad writing, just vague build up, every manga has this like Luffy's Gears or Ichigo's Viazard. Even Naruto has this, I mean since when could the Kyuubi shoot black orbs from it's mouth?

Sharigan eyes are Sharigan eyes, and Itachi and Sasuke are the last of their kind, which is way the Uchiha is extinct, because there bloodline dwarfs thw other Kekei Genkai.

Rememer when itachi beat Oro with his genjutsu, same with Sasuke, they're one of a kind, powerful geniuses.

Plus, your being kinda of ignnorant, you should have known that Sasuke could do stuff like this due to his role in this manga and being a successor of old school ninja's. It's called a plot build up.

And it's most likely Sasuke had these powers and could use them to his advantage before he knew about them, I'm sure he could have invented these Techniques over time skip. Chakra Surpression and Microcopic sight is probably something he invented with the sharigan like his variations.

It's just like Naruto molding Futton with his wind based jutsu to create FRS, his own creation and inventive prowess, Kakashi said that Naruto's generation would surpass the old. Why can't it be applied for Sasuke, why does it have to be out of the ass PIS to you.

Of coruse Sasuke's Part2 databook hasn't come out so this is all speculation. Only kishi knows why Sasuke can use all these sharigan powers.

Naruto's creating FRS is him taking a technique he already has, taking some new knowledge, and working to improve something existing.

Tailed-Beast Chakra Suppression has ZERO Sharingan precedent, and in fact has zero precedent from anything. It was invented out of nothing. The only forcible chakra suppression ever seen in the series has been the Byakugan by allowing its user to target and attack special points.

This is not him tweaking Chidori into whatever-it's-called full body Chidori.

If his Sharingan is a Deus Ex-Machina then so is every other Kekkei Genkei the story. Who says any of this stuff is new? Itachi main reason for what he did is that he felt his clan because to complacent with themselves, no one was striving to better than selves, to push their abilities higher. Itachi saw only one other Uchiha who might break this habit and that was Sasuke hence he spared him. So Sasuke uncovering new applications for his Kekkei Genkei isn't exactly Making up new stuff on the authors part. Since there were no Uchiha clan members in the village to fully explain ALL the potiental as well as documented abilities of the Sharingan. Kakashi isn't an authority because his isn't tied to his bloodline and he can only comment on what he himself has experienced. Hell it wasn't until part two he even began trying to improve his eye. So who's to say what the abilities of the Sharingan are. The point is, no one but Sasuke and maybe Madara who have pushed their abilities this far. It's not late in the game, its a midway point. Also There kids of course they are gonna grow and learn more things as they get older, but the best ones will learn a lot more a lot sooner.

So if Kimimaro was able to use his bone techniques to travel through time, it would be okay.

I mean, no one ever said he CAN'T do that, right?

Ghost

11-17-2007, 08:32 AM

Tailed-Beast Chakra Suppression has ZERO Sharingan precedent, and in fact has zero precedent from anything. It was invented out of nothing.

But on the other hand, the Kyuubi itself has been implied to have connections to Madara and the Uchiha clan. That counts for something, I think.

Kage Kisaragi

11-17-2007, 09:48 AM

So if Kimimaro was able to use his bone techniques to travel through time, it would be okay.

I mean, no one ever said he CAN'T do that, right?

Yes and you know why? Because it's a fictional story with make believe characters. Just like He-Man spinning castle greyskull around until it reached a speed so fast he was able to send it back to the present day Eternia.

Also We don't have to worry about Kimi doing that because 1.) He's dead, 2.) He was already using his bone techniques in ways that the rest of his clan had never displayed argo "He started doing new stuff, never before seen." Neji and his Byukugan went from being able to see chakra points and multipule types of long range vision, to being able to project invisible force palm strikes, filler Hinata can shoot chakra beams out of hands in a 360 degree rotation without spinning her body, all do to extremely flexibility apparently. Point is there is no established science to the things that happen in naruto, when a new idea presents itself the author adds it as he sees fit. All in a attempt to amaze and excite readers, stop holding Naruto up to whatever ideals you have because at the end of the day its just a man-childs fantasy.

another point is why are you trying to argue a limitation that was never mentioned?

Also I don't know if the time travel stuff is true or whatever, but you do see the possible connection with Kakashi's dimesional dumping powers with the Sharingan and how it relates to this supposed time traveling/dimensional traveling like ability Sasiuke apprently has right?

Totoro Man

11-17-2007, 11:23 AM

But on the other hand, the Kyuubi itself has been implied to have connections to Madara and the Uchiha clan. That counts for something, I think.

hmm, I wonder how much of that was planned in advance--and how much of it was, "oops! I just wrote myself into a corner and have so many plot-holes piling up I have to think of something FAST!"

I mean most stories have some (small or gaping) plot-holes in them.

my favorite author mistake/plot hole has to be from Lone Wolf and Cub where the author tells us that Daigoro had never shed a single tear before in his entire life when about 6 volumes ago Daigoro did, in fact, cry over the death of a puppy! Lone Wolf and Cub is a great comic, and this doesn't detract from the fact that both the stories where Daigoro cries are really good stories--however, the fact is, that there's still a plot-hole inconsistency in the writing.

Maikofan-- it's very obvious that you love Sasuke to death, and then some. I suppose I should have known this was flame-bait from the very beginning.

you're the one who's being irrational, moreso than anybody else on this thread.

most of your arguments have amounted to "Sasuke's better than you! deal with it!"

of COURSE a completely imaginary super-powered anti-hero is better than me. but that's NOT why I find him to be a contemptible character. Gaara was a super-powered anti-hero/villain and I thought he was awesome (still do).

Holland Novac (from Eureka Seven) is an even bigger loser and a jerk than Sasuke-- he's an insecure, child-abusing, bossy jerk--and yet, I still like him because he has real weaknesses and vulnerabilities. what's more, once Holland figures out how much of a dick he's been to everybody he cares about he tries to change.

Sasuke is much more popular with Japanese fans than he is in the West... and I'm sure there are good reason for that--but, I just can't see it. I liked him, even up until the time-skip. but post time-skip Sasuke is just... he's got a character shield, he gets waay too many victories with his Sharingan. I mean I hated Deidara's microscopic bombs MORE than I hated Sasuke's sharingan!

case in point, the title of one of the more recent issues was called "the death of sasuke" and I could already tell that it was a fake-out. I figured that Sasuke would simply magically heal himself a couple of issues later--even though I would have personally found it more interesting if Sasuke self-destructed or got himself killed long before he could ever successfully avenge his parents.

Quilt

11-17-2007, 11:59 AM

Alright, I see I've been quoted a bit here and there in the thread since I last posted. Lots of questions in terms of me justifying my statements a little.

Long story short, I'm not going to go in depth trying to justify anything I say about Naruto. I think Sasuke is a douche-bag of a character. That's it. Naruto is just a show I watch every now and then to pass some time and relax. I have no motivation to delve deep into all that is Naruto. Picking it apart for all the secrets that it may (or probably doesn't) contain.

Sasuke's a douche. If I met a guy like him on the street, I wouldn't bother with him. Sooooo depressing.

Maikofan

11-17-2007, 12:15 PM

Byronic hero? Hah! Try anti-hero.Nope he's a Byronic Hero.

From Wikipedia
The Byronic hero has the following characteristics:

conflicting emotions, bipolar tendencies, or moodiness
self-critical and introspective
struggles with integrity
a distaste for social institutions and social norms
being an exile, an outcast, or an outlaw
has "dark" attributes not normally associated with heroes
struggle with sexual identity (homosexual, sleeps with many women, etc.)
a lack of respect for rank and privilege
a troubled past
being cynical, demanding, and/or arrogant
often self-destructive
loner, often rejected from society

His credentials for heroism pretty much got tossed out the window when he decided to challange Naruto for nothing but selfish reasons and then join Konohagakura's greatest enemy.Um, have you read the chapters, Itachi ruined his life and killed his parents, he wants to avenge his clan and surpass his brother. I hardly call that selfish. And Itachi came back to the village, mind fucked him, and then left him for dead. I say, thats every right for him to leave the village, not only did Oro give him the curse seal of heaven which he didn'y want, but Itachi forced and provoked him and made him his bitch. Are you that ignorant?

Sasuke is not a suffering, misunderstood outcast, he's exactly what he appears to be: a very angry individual who became so consumed by his desire for revenge that he willingly shunned love, friendship and loyalty in his quest for power.Sasuke only wants power to kill his brother to avenge his clan. He's not a typical power hungry asshole who shun and destroys everyone one to get strong, I don't know where you got this claim from, but Sasuke always wanted to kill his brother, I don't see where this leads to him being shallow, conceited and short sighted. This is a path towards his clans avengement. Plus he didn't do anything wrong, he just fought Naruto so he wouldn't bare the burden of being weaker in front of his brother, and he knocked out Sakura because she would blow his cover and she would get killed, so he did her the favor, other than that I don't see him being a selfish prick for being a once again a free moral agent with a job to do.

You don't quite a lot of things, don't you?Can say the same to you.

Oi. That's bellow the belt, Maikofan. Settle down.

Let's be serious here: this is a comic book forum. If you think you'll find a lot of people here who share your admiration for "the popular ones", you are very, very wrong.

Hell, even if you're right, what does that say? That he represents people who wronged us and possess traits we dislike? Why the hell would we ever admire someone like that?I thought this was a person you would relate to considering he shares the same flaws as most of dudes do, self independance and logical thinking.

The traits you say you dislike about him, what does that mean exactly, you don't like Sasuke because you don't like yourself?

Naruto wasn't just lonely. He had an actual stigma. People hated him for his entire life and refused to let him know why. That's the kind of thing that chrushes the soul of a human being.He still formed bonds with Iruka and the Hokage, Sasuke had no one, no direction and no moralitisc father figure, he was alone and people left him alone because Sasuke had a father and he was murdered before his own eyes. Plus he didn't observe death or self infiction at all, Naruto had it good. Sasuke needed a psychologist.

If anything, I say this makes Naruto stronger then Sasuke. At least he defined his existance according to what he wanted to be, not what someone else tried to make him.Actually Naruto is the way he is by the bonds he had, if Sasuke had bonds he would of been like Naruto, but all of his bonds were destroyed that night, and his childhood was ruined, Sasuke is something we call a tragic byronic hero who's past reflects on who he is now. Sasuke regaurdless doesn't feel sorry for himself, he gets strong and has vengence as a ambition in his life. Sasuke's stronger than Naruto through ambition, not love. And vice verse to naruto.

Except, you know, Naruto.

Once Sasuke decided to let him close enough, anyway.Naruto doesn't count, he's the default character everyone mst like, including Sasuke. He had no wise father figure, like naruto did.

Ergo, an anti-hero of questionable morals. Glad we got that sorted out.Okay.

First: Did you just refer to Sasuke as a biased, uniformed and unfair hater?

Second: Will you cut down on the antagonism? You might have more success in convincing these people of your standpoint if you weren't so darn judgemental.I'm just saying, Sasuke gets unfair critism, when there are other characters just as guilty as he is.

Yes, you have made this abundantly clear.

Eh. I'd have an easier time buying this reasoning if the Sasuke hate didn't go all the way back to pre-timeskip.

Again, stacking the odds against the hero = common storytelling practice. As for bad writing, i admit that the whole deal about summoning Manda despite being critically low on chakra was pretty bad, but I'm fairly okay with the rest of his feats.Still how does Sasuke having Microscopic Eye Sight, make his character rediculous, what about Kyuubi's Hax Tailed form?And Sasuke for the last time, isn't unfair. Read the Chapter where Orochimaru claimed him to be better than he was.

Naruto's creating FRS is him taking a technique he already has, taking some new knowledge, and working to improve something existing.

Tailed-Beast Chakra Suppression has ZERO Sharingan precedent, and in fact has zero precedent from anything. It was invented out of nothing. The only forcible chakra suppression ever seen in the series has been the Byakugan by allowing its user to target and attack special points.

This is not him tweaking Chidori into whatever-it's-called full body Chidori.Naruto never had knowledge of Mixing Elementals, Hell Jiraya and Minato couldn;t acheive such a feat. But kakashi knew it and would teach naruto how to pull it off.

The same is said with Sasuke, his sharigan was said to posses more Sharigan potenial than Itachi or any other Uchiha in history.

And Sharigan is like a said a potenially vague plot device, for characters like Sasuke he always had the abilty to make a new use for the Sharigan, rather than Itachi.

And for the rest prove, give me the page out of the databook where it says Sharigan is only limited to Genjutsu and Sharigan foresighting and mimic.

Plus like I said, Kishi's databook on Sasuke's feats hasn't been reveled.

Ahem, Chidori Mace? Thats called manipulation.

The Real Nemo

11-17-2007, 12:25 PM

I don't particularly hate Sasuke, and I don't mind his being so powerful. But I don't see anything admirable about him, not even as an "end justifies the means" type (which is something I don't agree with but can respect in some characters). In Sasuke's case the ends don't justify the means at all, there's nothing lofty or noble about his goal even in his own mind. He's willing to use and betray anyone based entirely on his own purely selfish (if understandable) hatred for his brother and desire for revenge at any cost. In the end he's not much better than Enishi from Rurouni Kenshin.

Maikofan

11-17-2007, 12:25 PM

Sasuke is much more popular with Japanese fans than he is in the West... and I'm sure there are good reason for that--but, I just can't see it. I liked him, even up until the time-skip. but post time-skip Sasuke is just... he's got a character shield, he gets waay too many victories with his Sharingan. I mean I hated Deidara's microscopic bombs MORE than I hated Sasuke's sharingan!Again you refuse to see the good points and Flaws of this character, or you just a lazy to even try. Sasuke's weakness is his brother and it has always been this, Sasuke will do anything to get sweet justice on his brother, and thats no reason to hate Sasuke, plus Sasuke is strong and almost unbeatable because he worked for it and Itachi is his driving force.

There are tons of flaws and quirks Sasuke has, it's just that your picky to not care.

I don't particularly hate Sasuke, and I don't mind his being so powerful. But I don't see anything admirable about him, not even as an "end justifies the means" type (which is something I don't agree with but can respect in some characters). In Sasuke's case the ends don't justify the means at all, there's nothing lofty or noble about his goal even in his own mind. He's willing to use and betray anyone based entirely on his own purely selfish (if understandable) hatred for his brother and desire for revenge at any cost. In the end he's not much better than Enishi from Rurouni Kenshin.You do know it's not entirely his fault and people like Orochimaru forced his hand. Sasuke has a reason and a excuse and thats all that takes for him to be justified and admired. IMO.

I think avenging one of the strongest clans in his time and reviving an extinct clan is more admirable than being Hokage.

Totoro Man

11-17-2007, 12:38 PM

"Whatever, it seem most of you who dislike Sasuke, have either self moralistic values you grew up with or Jealous or simply don't care, either way I still don't get why Sasuke is unfairly hated, all I've seen is baised and non infomative answers, which make you no different from the character you hate. "

so Sasuke is jealous, biased, and uninformed.. just like me? I guess that counts as a weakness. :D

you've started a thread asking why Sasuke was so controversial and then spend the entire thread criticizing and ridiculing anybody who disagrees with you. making numerous insults, personal attacks, and categorically ignoring any evidence presented that contradicts your interpretation of the character.

if you were merly interested in "learning" why, you wouldn't have needed to make so many impassioned defense of his characters. you simply could have read people's replies and "learned" why people hate him. how hard is that to do?

WOW, what a troll. just because you refuse to understand why so many people HATE that character--even after ostensibly reading thousands of words carefully explaining WHY they hate the guy you still "don't get why"?!?!

what a liar. and they say that self-deception is the worst kind. at least Sasuke was honest about his intentions and motivations.

The Real Nemo

11-17-2007, 12:44 PM

You do know it's not entirely his fault and people like Orochimaru forced his hand. Sasuke has a reason and a excuse and thats all that takes for him to be justified and admired. IMO.
Having an excuse for or being forced into something doesn't make it admirable.
I think avenging one of the strongest clans in his time and reviving an extinct clan is more admirable than being Hokage.
Sorry but I don't see anything to admire in revenge for its own sake. Reviving the clan is a worthy enough goal, but that's always been secondary in Sasuke's mind to his vengeance against Itachi. Frankly I don't think he really expects to survive to achieve it once that's complete, though that could be another reason for Karin's presence...

Guy1

11-17-2007, 12:49 PM

Having an excuse for or being forced into something doesn't make it admirable.

Sorry but I don't see anything to admire in revenge for its own sake. Reviving the clan is a worthy enough goal, but that's always been secondary in Sasuke's mind to his vengeance against Itachi. Frankly I don't think he really expects to survive to achieve it once that's complete, though that could be another reason for Karin's presence...

Yeah, I think it was Suigetsu that mentioned she did something to Sasuke, so he probably just did her to ensure that even if both him and his brother died in battle, there would still be an Uchiha.

Of coruse, this assumes Karin doesn't get killed off either, but hey.

literally exaggerated

11-17-2007, 02:30 PM

you know Sasuke really is the sort of bastard who would impregnant a girl merely to continue his bloodline. If he lives to be a father, he'll be a complete Gendo type douche I bet. Manipulative and totally distant.

I don't get why he's controversial, because I think he's just being turned into the villain. If Sasuke is redeemed, it will be in some final vader type act. Until then, I fully expect him to be the antagonist, and in that respect he is an incredibly well done character. Much like Griffith, he is written as a friend at first. A flawed person to be true, but flawed in the way that tends to slant towards redemption (like most badass rival types). But when his full history was revealed, it was completely organic in his character to just end up an evil bastard, while still being really hurtful to see. Nothing Sasuke has done is out of character, and yet he has seamlessly transitioned from protagonist 1A to antagonist A.

And the antagonist *should* be more powerful. I agree that Naruto should be more powerful than he is, but I have no problems with Sasuke being a level up on him for now. That way its more satisfying when Naruto beats him. If any characterization should be criticized it is Naruto's. He's done nothing to improve, nothing to get smarter or learn anything at all about, well, anything. I'm one who hated Sakura pre-timeskip, and right now if they got together I would say Naruto's just not good enough for her. Thats not a good sign, given the amount of time that has passed. Were Naruto smarter in some ways but rasher in others, like a lot of teenagers, that might make sense, but he's really no different at all.

Nega Knight

11-17-2007, 03:06 PM

And the antagonist *should* be more powerful. I agree that Naruto should be more powerful than he is, but I have no problems with Sasuke being a level up on him for now. That way its more satisfying when Naruto beats him. If any characterization should be criticized it is Naruto's. He's done nothing to improve, nothing to get smarter or learn anything at all about, well, anything. I'm one who hated Sakura pre-timeskip, and right now if they got together I would say Naruto's just not good enough for her. Thats not a good sign, given the amount of time that has passed. Were Naruto smarter in some ways but rasher in others, like a lot of teenagers, that might make sense, but he's really no different at all.

I agree that Naruto should be better than he is right now, but I wouldn't say that he hasn't improved at all. His go-to solution is no longer "throw a ton of clones at 'em", he uses three or four and uses them strategically, probing his opponent for weakness. His fight with Kakuzu showed a kind of strategic thinking that he never exhibited before the time-skip. Granted, after two years of training with frickin' Jiraiya, he should have a lot more to show for it than "no longer fights like a complete dumbass."

Len Ikari145

11-17-2007, 03:14 PM

I agree that Naruto should be better than he is right now, but I wouldn't say that he hasn't improved at all. His go-to solution is no longer "throw a ton of clones at 'em", he uses three or four and uses them strategically, probing his opponent for weakness. His fight with Kakuzu showed a kind of strategic thinking that he never exhibited before the time-skip. Granted, after two years of training with frickin' Jiraiya, he should have a lot more to show for it than "no longer fights like a complete dumbass."

As I've said before, he should have accomplished more than he did after being trained by Jiraiya. But Jiraiya's training consisted only of teaching Naruto's to harness the Kyuubi. Not that I can't understand that being a necessity as it is his trump card, but he also should improved *himself* to the point where he won't always be dependent on Kyuubi.

superbatman86

11-18-2007, 12:00 AM

He's contoversial because he won.He stood against the main character who got two power-ups during the fight,has all the power of freindship and justice and won.And that's why I love Naruto because it's a manga where the main charater can lose not because he isn't right but because the guy he's fighting is stronger and wanted it more.That's why Sasuke is one of my favorite characters because he was shown 3 roads but made his own.

Deskad

11-18-2007, 12:33 AM

Sasuke is a Gary Stu.

A really badly written character. That's why people dislike him.

Actually, in my honest opinion, post time-skip Naruto [the manga not the character] suffers from bad writing on a lot of levels.

master of read

11-18-2007, 03:40 AM

damn. i knew this thread would be a friggin' flame war. and i think this is what maikofan wanted.

personally, i liked sasuke pre timeskip. he was on his way to being the sesshomaru or vegeta of naruto: the quiet foil to the loud hero who is strong and a loner but he's really a nice guy under it all. sadly, it didnt turn out that way.

i think the reason for all the sasuke hate is his actions, although understandable, are crap. he was so bent on revenge for his family who is dead that he threw away his new family, team 7. i think someone in a fanfic wrote some words that fit revenge:

"revenge is like a bitter drink: at first you hate the taste of it and it burns your throat. but you keep drinking it and you get use to the taste. then over time, you start to like it. and then one day, you find yourself loving it, craving it, wanting more of it until it's all you taste and want to drink. and you'd do anything to keep drinking it."

that's sasuke right now. he only tastes the revenge and he's thrown away any chance at happiness for it. at this rate, even if he kills his brother, sasuke will never be happy. well, unless he changes his tune quick.

and maikofan, revenge is a better goal than being hokage?

really?

let's use the battle with gaara as a prime example:

sasuke battle gaara not for any real reason other than to prove his own strength and superiority as a ninja. he came at gaara with his hate of his brother. and we all know what happened to him afterwards. naruto fought gaara out of his willingness to protect those he cares for, particularly sakura. and look what happened. he not only beat gaara but he changed him for the better. this coming from a kid who had no family and was hated and ignored for the first years of his life.

and you claim that sasuke's hate and need for revenge makes him better than a hokage? the same kind of person who would give his life at the drop of a hat for his village (the 3rd and 4th hokage)?

also i believe sasuke does what he does because of a subconscious need to prove himself better than naruto. look at how much naruto has done in his short time as ninja:

taught konohamaru that the path to greatness comes from hard work.
inspired a county to stand up and believe in heroes again (and got a bridge named after him to boot)
changed the outlook of two sasuke like charactors and turned them into two comrades and friends.
got tsunade to leave her lifestyle behind and come back to the village as the 5th hokage.
earned the admiration and respect of the sand village for saving their kazekage.
turn a emotionless prick into close but weird friend.

naruto's desired to change and become hokage is changing the world and the people around for the better. while sasuke's tunnel vision of revenge has earned him power but that;s all. remember when he and suigetsu arrive at the land of waves and he sees the naruto bridge? he instantly gets this look of distain on his face, almosst jealous. none of the other genin, save sakura and naruto, know him or even like him. basiclly, his thinking is boiled down to "power and revenge are all that matters. anything else that doesnt giving him power or helps him achieve his goal is useless and therefor, expendable."

for me, sasuke's desire for revenge was at first a decent reason to train and get stronger. but now, it's just a excuse for him to do what ever he wants?

betraying his village? it's ok cause it's for revenge.

nearly getting his fellow ninja nearly killed and almost killing his best friend? the revenge?

killing orochimaru? for his village. no! for revenge!

so what if he kills his brother in the next few chapters? what's next? nothing. cause that will be it. maybe he and karin have a kid or two and the uchihas might be restored but there wont be a day he wont hear of the golden age of konoha, lead by the 6th hokage, naruto uzumaki and his talented wife, sakura (crosses fingers.) and how the tension between the villages is ended and peace reighs.

but hey. sasuke's got his revenge.

so in conclusion, i'll just say this: i like who sasuke was, and i would've loved who sasuke could've been but i hate who is now.

Darth Joker

11-18-2007, 06:15 AM

I haven't watched much of the Naruto anime (partly because of what I've heard/read about "Wanksuke", ironically, though also because I didn't like how big a jobber Rock Lee was turning into), and I've read none of the manga, but there's a few points I've gleaned from reading CBR discussions on Sasuke (which tends to be the hottest discussions on CBR, so they draw me in though I haven't seen much of the anime).

I think I know what may be at the heart of the disagreement between Sasuke fans, and Sasuke detractors/haters, and it relates a great deal to a possible reason for why Sasuke is, according to another poster here, much more popular in Japan than he is in the west.

A very common facet in many Japanese animes is clan/guild/tribe warfare. Japan's history includes a vibrant feudal era which continues to influence Japanese culture and thought to this day. A viewpoint held by many Japanese people is that honour is central - that a man with out honour has nothing. Another viewpoint that originates from feudal era Japan is the centrality of the clan, the guild, or the tribe. This is part of the reason why Japan has a more collectivist mindset in general than we in the west do - loyalty to the group that one comes from is paramount. It is essential, and of the highest ethic. This line of thinking is very difficult for many of us in the west to relate to.

By our western sensibilities, one's family members and personal friends are the appropriate people for us to hold our greatest loyalty and love to. This reflects our individualistic mode of thinking. However, there is a somewhat prominent belief/philosophy in Japan that the greatest loyalty is not owed to personal friends, but to the clan or tribe that one comes from. That one is honour-bound to defend the clan, stick up for the clan, and, yes, take revenge on behalf of the clan.

By our western minds, Sasuke completely turning his backs on his personal friends to persue a vendetta of revenge for the sake of his clan is sheer moral insanity. It is a sign of clouded thinking, very poor priorities, and/or detestable character.

However, by some Japanese thinking, this act by Sasuke is right in line with the complete loyalty to the clan line of thinking. Thus, from the perspective of a Japanese fan of Naruto who's knowledgeable about his/her own country's history, Sasuke's actions are somewhat understandable.

This is a genuine cultural difference, I think, and hence if you judge Sasuke purely by western cultural norms and values you're simply not going to get the full picture of him. He's a Japanese-created character first and foremost, let's not forget.

Beyond that, from the animes that I've watched, I've come to the conclussion that the Japanese anime/manga fans have a much higher tolerance level for Gary Stus/Mary Sues than we do. This is reflected in their incredibly high number of vaguely "omnipotent" characters in fiction ( Tenchi, Haruhi Suzumiya, Haruka, Lain, etc...). Gary Stus/Mary Sues simply don't bother the Japanese like they do many western fans. Indeed, I often think that the Japanese revel in such rediculiously powerful reality-warping fictional characters.

Finally, if Sasuke has truly become an antagonist, then we need to start approaching him as an antagonist.

This is something that a lot of folks in general get wrong, in my opinion - they judge characters (all characters) purely on the basis of likeability. Likeability is a good measure of a protagonist, I'd agree - which incidentally is why I very much disliked "jerkface" (a name that I felt was quite deserving) when I did watch Naruto... because at the time, Sasuke was a protagonist who treated Naruto with supreme contempt and like he was absolute garbage. Such behavior in a protagonist typically turns me off. In an antagonist, however, I often expect it, and can even appreciate it if finely tuned.

You don't judge an antagonist by how nice a guy he is - you judge him by things like threat level, screen presence, competency, intelligence, and personal flair and style. If he has an understandable motivation for his antagonistic deeds and/or goals, that's usually a bonus... but he sure as heck doesn't need to be admirable, in the moral/ethical sense of the term.

So, from a Japanese perspective, Sasuke may be a honour-bound feudal era throwback with extreme bad assitude going for him, and with great antagonist qualities. He's not that different from Rukia's brother (Bleach) or Shesshomaru (InuYasha) if that's the case - in fact, from the Japanese perspective, he may be a better antagonist of that honour-bound type than they are. It's not that hard to see why the Japanese love him.

From what I've read on this thread, and some others, it sounds like Sasuke may be an excellent antagonist. Perhaps a bit too power-wanked, though it wouldn't shock me if most Japanese didn't think so.

However, in our western minds, we judge him by likeability even though he's an antagonist, and we judge him by our cultural norms and values, and we judge him by our general dislike of Gary Stus/Mary Sues.

All of that is quite understandable, of course, but it shouldn't be too hard for us to understand where the fans are coming from.

Just some ideas I wanted to throw out there. :)

Alex L

11-18-2007, 09:17 AM

Finally, if Sasuke has truly become an antagonist, then we need to start approaching him as an antagonist.

This is something that a lot of folks in general get wrong, in my opinion - they judge characters (all characters) purely on the basis of likeability. Likeability is a good measure of a protagonist, I'd agree - which incidentally is why I very much disliked "jerkface" (a name that I felt was quite deserving) when I did watch Naruto... because at the time, Sasuke was a protagonist who treated Naruto with supreme contempt and like he was absolute garbage. Such behavior in a protagonist typically turns me off. In an antagonist, however, I often expect it, and can even appreciate it if finely tuned.

I agree. Actually, I didn't mind it as much even when Sasuke was Naruto's teammate because they were, in a sense, always rivals. Sasuke with the skill, Naruto with the sheer power. And it makes sense to me that the one with skill looks down on the one without, especially when the teachers flat-out said they paired the top of the class with the bottom of the class. Sasuke, at least in the early times, did have ample reason to look down at the class clown.

Naruto never had knowledge of Mixing Elementals, Hell Jiraya and Minato couldn;t acheive such a feat. But kakashi knew it and would teach naruto how to pull it off.

But how did Naruto pull it off? By using clones -- one would focus on form, one would focus on manipulation.

Existing technique (two of them, in fact), new information, new addition.

[A] leads to [A+].

Chidori leads to Full-Body Chidori.

Fireball leads to Giant Fireball.

The same is said with Sasuke, his sharigan was said to posses more Sharigan potenial than Itachi or any other Uchiha in history.

And Sharigan is like a said a potenially vague plot device, for characters like Sasuke he always had the abilty to make a new use for the Sharigan, rather than Itachi.

And for the rest prove, give me the page out of the databook where it says Sharigan is only limited to Genjutsu and Sharigan foresighting and mimic.

Plus like I said, Kishi's databook on Sasuke's feats hasn't been reveled.
Absence of Proof logical fallacy.

- Prove that God does not exist
- Since you cannot, that means that God does exist

- Prove that the Sharingan cannot do this thing
- Since you cannot, that means the Sharingan can do this thing

Again, refer to Kimimaro and time travel. If you can't prove that he can't, then it means that he can (even though it would be asinine to suggest he could do so).

superbatman86

11-18-2007, 11:49 AM

I agree. Actually, I didn't mind it as much even when Sasuke was Naruto's teammate because they were, in a sense, always rivals. Sasuke with the skill, Naruto with the sheer power. And it makes sense to me that the one with skill looks down on the one without, especially when the teachers flat-out said they paired the top of the class with the bottom of the class. Sasuke, at least in the early times, did have ample reason to look down at the class clown.

But how did Naruto pull it off? By using clones -- one would focus on form, one would focus on manipulation.

Existing technique (two of them, in fact), new information, new addition.

[A] leads to [A+].

Chidori leads to Full-Body Chidori.

Fireball leads to Giant Fireball.

Absence of Proof logical fallacy.

- Prove that God does not exist
- Since you cannot, that means that God does exist

- Prove that the Sharingan cannot do this thing
- Since you cannot, that means the Sharingan can do this thing

Again, refer to Kimimaro and time travel. If you can't prove that he can't, then it means that he can (even though it would be asinine to suggest he could do so).You do know that the only boudries given on the sharingan are they can't copy bloodlines and they can't copy summons unless they have the same contract as the summoner.That's it.That's the problem a lot of people have is that they place personal limits on the sharingan that were never there.Kishi didn't put limits on it so he could add things later if he felt like it.

Guy1

11-18-2007, 04:14 PM

You do know that the only boudries given on the sharingan are they can't copy bloodlines and they can't copy summons unless they have the same contract as the summoner.That's it.That's the problem a lot of people have is that they place personal limits on the sharingan that were never there.Kishi didn't put limits on it so he could add things later if he felt like it.

I don't know, as of the fight with Deidara, he seems to be doing everything the Byakugan does.

Kage Kisaragi

11-18-2007, 04:41 PM

AllisterH

11-18-2007, 06:39 PM

Again, if kakashi can open dimensional warps, which within the premise of comicbook science is as close as a relation as space/time manipulation I fail to see why a real Uchiha shouldn't be able to do anything similiar if not superior. Itachi can control space and time within the limits of his genjutsu, and kakashi has demonstrated control of space within the real world, why can't Sasuke control time within the real world?

Is it because Sasuke's detractors have no imagination or because they were Kakashi and Itachi fans for the sheer power those two demonstrated pre-timeskip?

Um, please note many of us said "Bullshit" when Kakashi busted out the dimension-warping effect.

Furthermore, you still don't factor in how the fight with Deidara, Sasuke was pulling off moves that by rights should be the property of the Byagukan.

There seems to be no rhyme or reason to what the Sharingan can do. Many of us at the beginning actually liked the sharingan. The ability to copy any non-bloodline ninja move _IS_ already a STRONG bloodline power.

Given what we've seen of bloodline abilities, the sharingan seemed to be the best by far and the thing is, many of us were ok with that, in fact, many of us I'd argue actually loved it.

We liked how powerful it was but we also liked how people could get around it
(don't look into their eyes, use mist to obscure their vision, simply move faster than the copier can move etc..)

Now though, everyone of those seems to be stripped away. Its like reading Silver Age superman without kryptonite being readily available. BORING...

Ghost

11-18-2007, 09:19 PM

Nope he's a Byronic Hero.

Quote:
From Wikipedia
The Byronic hero has the following characteristics:

conflicting emotions, bipolar tendencies, or moodiness

Moodiness perhaps, but Sasuke has never shown bipolar tendencies, or conflicting emotions. He's very sure of what he wants.

self-critical and introspective

Sasuke is hardly self-critical, arrogance and pride being his defining features. And he's no more introspective then anyone else.

struggles with integrity

Lol!

a distaste for social institutions and social norms

Only when they stand in the way of his goals. You don't exactly see him rebel against his teachers as long as they can teach him anything usefull, do you?

being an exile, an outcast, or an outlaw

He has exiled himself. Naruto and Sakura alone offered him enough love and companionship to make this point null, and he basically told them to shove it.

has "dark" attributes not normally associated with heroes

This is true. Because he ain't really a hero.

struggle with sexual identity (homosexual, sleeps with many women, etc.)

Sasuke has no sexual identity. He doesn't seem interested in women or men, so if anything he's asexual. Plus, he doesn't actually care.

a lack of respect for rank and privilege

Sasuke suffers a lack of respect for nearly anything. Again, he is not a rebel, he's an opportunist who'll get along fine with any authorative figure as long as he can get something out of it.

a troubled past

True. Same can be said about most anti-heroes, though.

And most bona fide heroes, actualy.

And quite a lot of villains, come to think of it.

being cynical, demanding, and/or arrogant

True, but that's hardly endearing, and absolutely not enough to make him a byronic hero.

often self-destructive
'
Untrue. Sasuke is a survivor who's primary motivation is to better himself and grow stronger. That's the opposite of self-destructiveness.

loner, often rejected from society

Again, no one has ever rejected Sasuke. The entire Save Sasuke arc is a testament to this.

Um, have you read the chapters, Itachi ruined his life and killed his parents, he wants to avenge his clan and surpass his brother. I hardly call that selfish. And Itachi came back to the village, mind fucked him, and then left him for dead. I say, thats every right for him to leave the village, not only did Oro give him the curse seal of heaven which he didn'y want, but Itachi forced and provoked him and made him his bitch.

No, no. I meant challenging Naruto mostly because he couldn't stand the idea of him beating Gaara mostly on his own. You cannot deny that was an act of blatant jealousy.

Are you that ignorant?

Again with the personal attacks, huh?

Sasuke only wants power to kill his brother to avenge his clan. He's not a typical power hungry asshole who shun and destroys everyone one to get strong, I don't know where you got this claim from, but Sasuke always wanted to kill his brother, I don't see where this leads to him being shallow, conceited and short sighted.

I never said he was. But his reasons for doing what he did hardly changes or excuses that fact that he did or changes what he is.

What I'm trying to get to is that Sasuke is an anti-hero. He does what he does for himself, and serves no heroic ideals. There's nothing wrong with this, the anti hero is a perfectly acceptable archetype. I just don't think you should admire Sasuke for traits he doesn't have. That is just as unfair as hating him for the same reasons.

Can say the same to you.

Oh really. So far I think my opinion of Sasuke has been rather objective. I don't hate him, but neither do I adore him. And I actually strive to understand your opinions. Tell me, do you strive to understand me?

I thought this was a person you would relate to considering he shares the same flaws as most of dudes do, self independance and logical thinking.

The traits you say you dislike about him, what does that mean exactly, you don't like Sasuke because you don't like yourself?

Please, I am nothing like Sasuke. In fact, the reason I admire Naruto so much is because I see my own ideals in him.

Try again.

He still formed bonds with Iruka and the Hokage, Sasuke had no one, no direction and no moralitisc father figure, he was alone and people left him alone because Sasuke had a father and he was murdered before his own eyes. Plus he didn't observe death or self infiction at all, Naruto had it good. Sasuke needed a psychologist.

Naruto formed bonds because he activaly tried to. Sasuke got tons of chances to bond but said no to them.

Actually Naruto is the way he is by the bonds he had, if Sasuke had bonds he would of been like Naruto, but all of his bonds were destroyed that night, and his childhood was ruined, Sasuke is something we call a tragic byronic hero who's past reflects on who he is now. Sasuke regaurdless doesn't feel sorry for himself, he gets strong and has vengence as a ambition in his life. Sasuke's stronger than Naruto through ambition, not love. And vice verse to naruto.

You have it backwards. When the story starts, Naruto only has a single person who actually gives a damn about him and that's Iruka. And even then, it was only beacause Iruko saw good in Naruto and admired his sipirit. Naruto didn't become the person he is because of his bonds, he gained his bonds because of who he is.

And again, Sasuke is no byronic hero. See, in order to be a byronic hero you must have some traits of actual heroism, or at least avoid opperating on decitions that have destinct anti-heroic traits.

The only time Sasuke showed actual heroic traits was way back in the start, when he did stuff like taking Haku's attacks to save Naruto, etc. Back then he was a byronic hero, but he's fallen quite a bit since then.

Naruto doesn't count, he's the default character everyone mst like, including Sasuke. He had no wise father figure, like naruto did.

Everyone doesn't have to like Naruto. They just happen to do because he's, you know, an almost ridiculously likable character. And even if you're right, you can't dismiss the fact that Naruto does care about Sasuke and does want to help him. So saying that no one ever gave a damn about Sasuke is not true.

Again, Sasuke's failure to build anything resembling a surrugate family is due to his own decitions. He was never shunned, he just didn't want to depend on people.

I'm just saying, Sasuke gets unfair critism, when there are other characters just as guilty as he is.

That's beside the point. I may not agree with you, Maikofan, but I understand that you belive in your opinion and I respect that. But I can't abide the disrespect you show for other people's opinions, or your petty attacks and poorly hidden insults.

In the end, wether or not we are right or wrong has little to do with winning a debate. The only way for you to get anywhere in a discussion it by convincing your opponent that you are right, and you simply cannot do that if you anger him. It's that simple.

Devil_LeonX

11-18-2007, 10:15 PM

whoa this forum could go on and on!!! One question guys where did the thing about Saskue getting whats her face pregnant come from?? DOnt remember anything like that in the manga?

Guy1

11-18-2007, 10:17 PM

whoa this forum could go on and on!!! One question guys where did the thing about Saskue getting whats her face pregnant come from?? DOnt remember anything like that in the manga?

It's a theory that I tossed out there.

Chrosis

11-18-2007, 10:28 PM

Not bad writing, just vague build up, every manga has this like Luffy's Gears or Ichigo's Viazard. Even Naruto has this, I mean since when could the Kyuubi shoot black orbs from it's mouth?

We've never even seen the Kyuubi in combat before. We have no idea what it's actually capable of. On the other hand, we've seen the Sharingan in combat numerous times, and recently, it's been doing different and more bizarre things that go against past showings completely.

Sharigan eyes are Sharigan eyes, and Itachi and Sasuke are the last of their kind, which is way the Uchiha is extinct, because there bloodline dwarfs thw other Kekei Genkai.

No... their clan is extinct because Itachi slaughtered them all like pigs. He's an asshole.

Rememer when itachi beat Oro with his genjutsu, same with Sasuke, they're one of a kind, powerful geniuses.

Honestly, I contribute Itachi beating Orochimaru to skill. Sasuke beating Orochimaru... I like to think that it's just because Orochimaru would have probably died in the night had Sasuke not come to fight him them.

Plus, your being kinda of ignnorant, you should have known that Sasuke could do stuff like this due to his role in this manga and being a successor of old school ninja's. It's called a plot build up.

He's the betrayer and possibly the final villain. That is his role in the manga.

However, I don't see how "Completely Unexplained, Wacky, Plot Device Powers" has to fit into this. I can have an ultimate villain and still not give him completely unexplained, wacky, plot device powers.

And it's most likely Sasuke had these powers and could use them to his advantage before he knew about them, I'm sure he could have invented these Techniques over time skip. Chakra Surpression and Microcopic sight is probably something he invented with the sharigan like his variations.

Only the Rinengan or whatever it's called can actually 'Create' ninjutsu, from what I hear. They invented all ninjutsu.

Sasuke cannot "Invent" Jutsus. He can change, improve upon, or possibly combine jutsus, yes.

But as far as invention goes... no.

It's just like Naruto molding Futton with his wind based jutsu to create FRS, his own creation and inventive prowess, Kakashi said that Naruto's generation would surpass the old. Why can't it be applied for Sasuke, why does it have to be out of the ass PIS to you.

Because that was combining to techniques that worked similarly.

Not the complete invention of a new technique.

Of coruse Sasuke's Part2 databook hasn't come out so this is all speculation. Only kishi knows why Sasuke can use all these sharigan powers.

Because he makes them up as he goes, depending on what makes Sasuke look "cooler" in his eyes. He even flat out admitted that Sasuke was his favorite character.

Ghost

11-18-2007, 10:59 PM

We've never even seen the Kyuubi in combat before. We have no idea what it's actually capable of. On the other hand, we've seen the Sharingan in combat numerous times, and recently, it's been doing different and more bizarre things that go against past showings completely.

Keep in mind that the sharingan is inherently mysterious. There's only three characters in the whole series who have them:

-Kakashi, who isn't a Uchiha and can't be expected to know all its secrets.
-Itachi, who we hardly see doing much except genjutsuing people silly and who so far hasn't really gone all out.
-Sasuke, who started out without the Sharingan and had to learn how to use them as the story progressed.

In short, the sharingan's limits have never been stated, so who's to say what it can and can't do?

He's the betrayer and possibly the final villain. That is his role in the manga.

However, I don't see how "Completely Unexplained, Wacky, Plot Device Powers" has to fit into this. I can have an ultimate villain and still not give him completely unexplained, wacky, plot device powers.

Oh please. Sasuke is so not the final villain. He doesn't have the motivation, he doesn't have the history, and nothing he's ever done or thought supports this theory.

He's going to face Itachi and resolve their differances -one way or another- and then he'll do a Heel Face Turn right back again and help Naruto clobber the real main villain. (Whom I currently assume is Madara.)

Only the Rinengan or whatever it's called can actually 'Create' ninjutsu, from what I hear. They invented all ninjutsu.

Um, no. The original Rin'egan user, whatshisname, "invented" ninjutsu in the sense that he created the organized Shinobi society of Naruto's world. That's not the same thing as creating the art of ninjutsu as a whole.

So far, we don't really know what the rin'egan actually does.

Sasuke cannot "Invent" Jutsus. He can change, improve upon, or possibly combine jutsus, yes.

But as far as invention goes... no.

Says who?

Because he makes them up as he goes, depending on what makes Sasuke look "cooler" in his eyes. He even flat out admitted that Sasuke was his favorite character.

Just because one has a favourite character, it doesn't mean one has to mess up the characterisation. If anything, it should be the other way around: because Sasuke is Kishimoto's favourite character, he should stay true to the character outline because to a writer, that's what a character is.

At any rate, Kishimoto is one of the few writers who's skills I actively admire and envy. I do not belive he would put his personal favourite before the requirements of the story itself. He's far too skilled for that.

Chrosis

11-18-2007, 11:19 PM

Keep in mind that the sharingan is inherently mysterious. There's only three characters in the whole series who have them:

-Kakashi, who isn't a Uchiha and can't be expected to know all its secrets.
-Itachi, who we hardly see doing much except genjutsuing people silly and who so far hasn't really gone all out.
-Sasuke, who started out without the Sharingan and had to learn how to use them as the story progressed.

In short, the sharingan's limits have never been stated, so who's to say what it can and can't do?

I'm treating this like a rumble, so I'm using Rumbles Forum rules regarding Sasuke's abilities.

Oh please. Sasuke is so not the final villain. He doesn't have the motivation, he doesn't have the history, and nothing he's ever done or thought supports this theory.

He's going to face Itachi and resolve their differances -one way or another- and then he'll do a Heel Face Turn right back again and help Naruto clobber the real main villain. (Whom I currently assume is Madara.)

I said possibly. Get off my back. :D

And he'll just be forgiven, right? Nope. I'm thinking imprisonment. Maybe execution. ;)

Because if they don't, then it pretty much becomes, "Oh, sure. You can leave the village on your personal vendetta to kill your brother while simultaneously aiding our greatest enemy. Don't you worry about it."

Um, no. The original Rin'egan user, whatshisname, "invented" ninjutsu in the sense that he created the organized Shinobi society of Naruto's world. That's not the same thing as creating the art of ninjutsu as a whole.

So far, we don't really know what the rin'egan actually does.

The "Original Rin'egan" user has never been named. Ever. Pein is younger than Jiraya, so it can't be him.

And I thought it did. Until one of use provides scans proving the other wrong, we're at an impass.

Says who?

Why can't Kimimaro come back from the dead and use time travel? He never showed he couldn't do that! :rolleyes:

God, I'm gonna end up using that over and over. :D

Just because one has a favourite character, it doesn't mean one has to mess up the characterisation. If anything, it should be the other way around: because Sasuke is Kishimoto's favourite character, he should stay true to the character outline because to a writer, that's what a character is.

Actually, I think it would effect the plot of the story and what happens to the character in question. It already has. The story has focused much more on Sasuke than it has in any previous story arc, and when doing any research paper, one must always think, "Is my source biased?"

In this situation, when researching "Why does this character have this, this, and this?" we have to think, "Okay, this is the author's favorite character. Thats probably a reason why he's so good."

At any rate, Kishimoto is one of the few writers who's skills I actively admire and envy. I do not belive he would put his personal favourite before the requirements of the story itself. He's far too skilled for that.

Up until the end of the "Save Gaara" Arc, I would have believed you.

Ghost

11-18-2007, 11:59 PM

I'm treating this like a rumble, so I'm using Rumbles Forum rules regarding Sasuke's abilities.

You really shouldn't. Seeing as this isn't Rumbles, I mean.

(Hell, if we do go by Rumbles Rules, then we have to accept Sasuke's feats since he actually performed them. Wether we like them or not doesn't factor in.)

I said possibly. Get off my back. :D

And he'll just be forgiven, right? Nope. I'm thinking imprisonment. Maybe execution. ;)

Because if they don't, then it pretty much becomes, "Oh, sure. You can leave the village on your personal vendetta to kill your brother while simultaneously aiding our greatest enemy. Don't you worry about it."

He killed Orochimaru and pretty much dismantled Hidden Sound. That should win him back some points. He's also killed an Akatsuki member, indirectly helping Naruto and Konohagakure.

In fact, the only crime he's actually guilty of is defecting. There's nothing to suggest he gave Orochimaru any valuable information, and he has only acted aggressively towards Konoha once. (Which was basically to tell them to back off and leave him alone.) Ever since then he's been avoiding any kind of conflict with them.

At worst, I see them giving him the Fate Testarossa treatment: a formal trial followed by a light slap on the fingers due to special circumstances, redeeming qualities and his status as a very, very powerul and valuable shinobi.

Thought, to be honest, I suspect that when he does turn back to being a protagonist again, Madara will have already have started his Master Plan to take over/destroy the world, and punishing Sasuke will suddenly have a very low priority since they'll need him and any other help they can get if they want to win.

The "Original Rin'egan" user has never been named. Ever. Pein is younger than Jiraya, so it can't be him.

Yeah he was. He was called the Sage of the Eight Paths or something like that. Jiraiya mentioned him.

Why can't Kimimaro come back from the dead and use time travel? He never showed he couldn't do that! :rolleyes:

Well, there you go: if he could do that, he would have. :p

You can't say a character should be able to do something he has never been shown to do. But on the other hand, you can't say a character can't do something when he has clearly shown the ability to do just that.

Actually, I think it would effect the plot of the story and what happens to the character in question. It already has. The story has focused much more on Sasuke than it has in any previous story arc, and when doing any research paper, one must always think, "Is my source biased?"

In this situation, when researching "Why does this character have this, this, and this?" we have to think, "Okay, this is the author's favorite character. Thats probably a reason why he's so good."

Well, I am a writer, and I like to think that I have a good grasp of the methodology of storytelling and an understanding of how writers think and reason.

And to be quite honest, even though I don't actually like Sasuke, I would probably have done the same thing that Kishimoto is doing, had I written Naruto. It's common practice, not to mention common sense.

Up until the end of the "Save Gaara" Arc, I would have believed you.

What's wrong with the Save Gaara Arc?

Sasuke wasn't even in that.

Kage Kisaragi

11-19-2007, 01:19 AM

.. wo woah! Who can't invent Jutsu? Are we all watching/reading the same series?

How many times has it been stated that most of the older characters have created and advanced this and that?

Kakashi: Created the Chidori.
Yondaime: Created the Rasengan, and that Teleport technique.
Naruto: Created sexy no jutsu.
Tsunade: Created her regeneration seal.

Isn't stated at some point every ninja is supposed to develope their own technique?

As far as being creative and inventing thing goes its apparent you don't need anyones permission, rather that some invented techniques might be prohibited depending on the nature of said jutus.

Darth Joker

11-19-2007, 05:58 AM

Ghost - You yourself have frequently stated that one of the reasons that Sasuke recieves so much hatred is because the character doesn't do what he's "supposed" to do; that he breaks from a lot of reader/watcher-anticipated conventions (the turn to becoming outright antagonist instead of competitive, but allied, rival).

With that in mind, how can you be so confidant that Sasuke will flow into the path that you expect him to?

Certainly, I've read a lot of people state that at this juncture, main villain is as likely a role for Sasuke as any. Certainly, that's the most justifiable reason to have Sasuke be so much more competent/powerful than the titular character/main protagonist.

Ghost

11-19-2007, 07:28 AM

Naruto: Created sexy no jutsu.

Well, let's be fair: it's not so much a new jutsu as it is an innovative way of using an old one. Any ninja in Naruto can henge into a naked woman if they feel like it.

Hell, the girls don't even need to use henge. :p

Ghost - You yourself have frequently stated that one of the reasons that Sasuke recieves so much hatred is because the character doesn't do what he's "supposed" to do; that he breaks from a lot of reader/watcher-anticipated conventions (the turn to becoming outright antagonist instead of competitive, but allied, rival).

Correction, I have frequnetly stated that the reason Sasuke recieves so much hatred is because the readers have misunderstood his role in the story. That's not quite the same thing.

With that in mind, how can you be so confidant that Sasuke will flow into the path that you expect him to?

Joke Answer: 'Cause I'm just that damn good! ;)

Serious Answer: I'm not saying Sasuke couldn't surprise me, but I'm making educaded guesses based on what I know about his character, Kishimoto's over-all style and the predictions I'm able to make regarding the plot.

I'm naturally hoping that everyone else in the debate is doing the same, but I really don't understand how they keep coming to these wildly unlikely conclusions. Especially since the only motivations I keep hearing go along the lines of: "OMFG Kishi is totally haxxing Sasuke!" :confused:

Seriously, if you have any decent reason for why you think Sasuke will end up the main big bad, go ahead and tell me. If it find it more likely then my own conclusion I'll gladly change my mind!

Certainly, I've read a lot of people state that at this juncture, main villain is as likely a role for Sasuke as any. Certainly, that's the most justifiable reason to have Sasuke be so much more competent/powerful than the titular character/main protagonist.

Well, he's an important character, one of the driving forces behind the plot, the counter balance of Naruto and over-all the current key antagonist. But main villain? Sasuke doesn't have what it takes!

In order to be the main villain, Sasuke needs propper motivation and he just plain doesn't. Sasuke doesn't want to do any harm to Konohagakure. He doesn't want to kill Naruto. He doesn't want to control the Tailed Beasts. He doesn't want to rule the world with an iron fist or rain destruction from the heavens or anything like that.

Sasuke wants only one thing: to kill his brother. That is the alpha and omega of his character and his sole motivation for doing anything at all.

Sure, there will be a confrontation between him and Naruto eventually, that's pretty much a given. But therein lies the crucial point: as a character, Sasuke exists only for one single purpouse and that is to spur Naruto to fight harder and grow stronger, and not out of hatred but out of love. Naruto and Sasuke represent clashing, dynamically opposite ideals and redeeming Sasuke is the only way for Naruto to finally prove, once and for all, that his ideology is the true and superior one.

But, again, I may be wrong. You're free to offer your own theory on the matter and I'll gladly listen to it. :)

Kage Kisaragi

11-19-2007, 08:16 AM

Certainly, I've read a lot of people state that at this juncture, main villain is as likely a role for Sasuke as any. Certainly, that's the most justifiable reason to have Sasuke be so much more competent/powerful than the titular character/main protagonist.

For what reason? At this point in the story Naruto has nothing Sasuke wants, so why would he need to become the main villain?

I mean if other peoples opinions and theories are driving this idea that Sasuke is going to be the main villain then let me throw out some theories as to why Sasuke is powerful as well.

1.) Because Sasuke doesn't have a entire village backing him so obviously he has to be powerful enough to survive outside the villages protection. Especially to pursue his goal of finding Itachi and killing him. Itachi being a extraordinarly powerful Rogue Shinobi who a group of Jounin can't even stop. He himself isnt even the most powerful member of Akatsuki and yet Sasuke needs for the purpose of not being left in character limbo, has to go up against these guys at some point or another.

2.) Because Sasuke had better training than Naruto did. The kid learns at a acceptionally fast rate, and adepts with or without the Sharingan more or less depending on the situation. Now looking at the fact that he does indeed have the Sharingan, which atleast by the detractors view can allow body reading, jutsu copying, Seeing chakra flows, (not as well as the Byukugan which sees the actual points as well as were it leaks out. Kakashi points this out during the exams.) just stopping there and not even going on the post timeskip stuff. Is it really that hard to see why Sasuke might have gained a lot more power within a 2 1/2 year time jump than say Naruto? I mean we aren't talking about physical strength, we are talking about number of skills learned, as well as the brains to utilize these new skills in ways that at best show ones cunning/creativity. Also to go back to the being of this point, it's questionable but not inconceivable that Orochimaru overall is more powerful than Jiraiya. I mean from what we've seen Orochimaru has insane levels of strength as well as regenerative abilities, and incredible durability, topped with intelligence in the form of cunning, guile, and strategic know how as well as being highly skilled enough to develope unique jutsus and seals of his own. Orochimaru seems far more likely to be superior to Tsunade and Jiraiya outside of eithers field of expertise. So assuming Orochi was better than Jiraiya, why wouldn't a better teacher and his better student, come out stronger than weaker teacher and his weaker student? I'm sure its a very grey view of the actual situation but it doesn't change the idea. That idea being that Naruto will need more than just equal training to keep up with Sasuke skill wise, he's gonna need something to

A.) Over come the Sharingan,
B.) Someone who can teach him even more than Orochimaru could ever teach Sasuke and what Sasuke could ever come up with on his own.
C.) Become a lot more clever/intelligent himself.
D.) Better control over his own given secret power.

I'm sure making light of the situation compared to you die die die hard Naruto fans. Yet there is nothing to disprove that what Ghost said wont come to pass. Sasuke has one goal and it doesn't include Naruto at the moment. Sasuke hasn't done anything to Konoha that prevents him returning to it. Sasuke doesn't necessarily have to return to Konoha either, since apparently there can be entire gangs of rogue ninjas that just travel about doing as they please. Unless the Emperor (Daiymo) or Fire country becomes an unbearable Tyrant (Dark Sidious) and takes Sasuke under his wing and leads some kind of Ninja cleansing, I don't see how he and Naruto have to come to pass in some kind of destined showdown to the death. At the very best they might fight each other one last time in the same manner as how Goku fought Vegeta one last time during the Majin Saga, instead however it'll be Naruto who wants to prove that he has surpassed the almighty Sasuke, and more than likely will.

Alex L

11-19-2007, 10:20 AM

Kage Kisaragi

11-19-2007, 11:47 AM

superbatman86

11-19-2007, 01:47 PM

I don't know, as of the fight with Deidara, he seems to be doing everything the Byakugan does.Which was never stated that the sharingan couldn't do.Kakashi said he couldn't do what the Byakugan can do but he isn't an Uchia plus he has inferior eyes.Like how Neji has the best Byakugan,Sasuke has a better sharingan than Kakashi.

The Cool Thatguy

11-19-2007, 02:39 PM

Which was never stated that the sharingan couldn't do.Kakashi said he couldn't do what the Byakugan can do but he isn't an Uchia plus he has inferior eyes.Like how Neji has the best Byakugan,Sasuke has a better sharingan than Kakashi.

I'd hardly say that. He created his own variation of the Mangekyo, something we haven't seen either Uchiha do.

Quilt

11-19-2007, 04:23 PM

Wow. This thread has turned into a graduate level Naruto Interpretations and Explorations course. You guys going to go on to write your Naruto Master's Thesis?

AllisterH

11-19-2007, 05:21 PM

^ I thought we were debating Why is Sasuke Contraversal? Not why didin't Kishimoto come up with a scientific textbook to explain everything he's wrote about and will write about in the past, present and future of the Naturoverse.

Which is the sticking point.

Your side believes that if say the Sharingan allows for one to do ANYTHING a la the Molecule Man, since Kishimoto never stated its limitations, this is ok.

My side believes that abilities should have a logical progression from what they were first stated. We're not against NEW abilities just ones that make no sense,

Notice how many of us don't have a problem with say the Byagukan giving microscopic vision yet many of us think the dimension dump ability is just plain hooky.

Totoro Man

11-19-2007, 06:21 PM

Kage Kisaragi

11-19-2007, 08:45 PM

hey, did anybody ever come up with Sasuke's weakness?

I know somebody said "it's Itachi, Itachi is Sasuke's weakness."

does Sasuke suddenly lose all of his powers and skills in the presence of Itachi? does Sasuke lose battles because of Itachi's proximity? apart from being more powerful and experienced in the realms of combat--just what is it about Itachi that could be considered "Sasuke's weakness"?

the real answer would probably be, "Sasuke has no weaknesses--and Itachi is merely stronger than Sasuke--and Sasuke is always seeking to overpower and kill his elder brother. in short, Itachi is Sasuke's MOTIVATION. but he is far from being Sasuke's weakness.

so Sasuke doesn't have any weaknesses then... does he?

You kind of answered you own question. The fact that he tried to over power Itachi with the Chidori the first time he had the chance to fight him is a classic example of Sasuke losing his cool, and thus losing the fight before it even began. So yes Sasuke's weakness could be seen as Itachi.

Also this whole side thing is meh, the series never said that techniques have to start out as a lesser function of another technique. It never said that to make technique B you have to start with technique A. It's just that for the most part we haven't seen anyone develope a technique that wasn't similiar to something else on camra. Yet we know Kakashi made the Chidori and there was no precurser to that move. If you say it was the Rasengan, that what was the precurser to that?

What your side is failing to see is that all these new techniques that you are swearing were developed from A arent new techniques they are just variations of old ones, that isn't a new jutsu its just a different way of executing it. Like Sasuke creating the Shishi Rendan (though it was inspired by the Primary Lotus.) and Naruto trying to copying that in his own way, still doesnt make it new rather its just a even worse copy of what Lee does and then Sasuke's screwed up combo.

The thing is new jutsu are made by individuals when they have a clever enough idea, and figure out away to execute it, the fact that we didn't see Sasuke's train of thought in developing his new jutsus or how he uses existing ones shouldn't have this kind of impact of readers. It shouldn't make them immeditately jump to the conclusion that he is receiving special favors and so on. It's like your punishing him for being creative/intelligent and doing some NEW as oppose to something old with a new coat on it. It's called progress.

Ghost

11-20-2007, 05:45 AM

Who's to say that Kakashi won't open up the dimensional portal and pull out a spaceship with thermal tracking and lasers and a Romulan cloaking device? Because no one said he...
...
...
... you know, I think I should just step out of this thread. It appears that the two sides in this debate are at an impasse.

My closing point -- there should be limitations on the Sharingan. In the beginning, it established that the eye could read and copy jutsu. From that, you could see a connection to Itachi's ability to defeat genjutsu (since, if he could read and copy it, he probably understands the inner workings of the jutsu and how to defeat it). A -> A+ (sort of).

Even though it's not a bloodline ability, Shikamaru's shadow control became a shadow bind. A -> A+.

Meat Tank -> Spiked Meat Tank.

50 meter 360º vision -> 100 meter 360º vision.

New abilities should generally be built on top of existing abilities. A -> A+. To do otherwise is essentially the writer giving the character new abilities for the hell of it, or because the author can't think of any other way to get the character out of this bind, which I consider to be sloppy.

Giving the Sharingan anti- <insert situation here> vision may make sense within the confines of the Narutoverse, but that doesn't make it particularly clever writing.

Well, let's look at Sasuke's Sharingan abilties, then:

Pre-Time Skip:

Jutsu Copy
Super Perception (Includes the ability to track super fast opponents, seeing through genjutsu, and seeing chakra flows at a lesser level then the Byakugan.)
Analytical Boost
Doujutsu (Hypnosis, and on higher levels, outright genjutsu via eye contact.)

Post-Time Skip:

Seeing the Kyuubi: Most likely a variant of the Super perception (chakra flow) ability, apparently restricted to the Kyuubi Jinchuriki. Requires high level mastery of the Sharingan, according the Kyuubi.
Suppressing the Kyuubi: May or may not be a Sharingan power. Either way, the Kyuubi hints at a connection between itself and the Uhicha (specifically, Madara) which will probably be explained in the future.
Telescopic, microscopic and x-ray vision: Variant of super perception. Note that the Sharingan in basically an evolved/mutated Byakugan, so this isn't really a stretch.

Am I forgetting something?

Which is the sticking point.

Your side believes that if say the Sharingan allows for one to do ANYTHING a la the Molecule Man, since Kishimoto never stated its limitations, this is ok.

My side believes that abilities should have a logical progression from what they were first stated. We're not against NEW abilities just ones that make no sense,

Notice how many of us don't have a problem with say the Byagukan giving microscopic vision yet many of us think the dimension dump ability is just plain hooky.

I also have a hard time getting my head around the dimension dumping thing, but that's Kakashi's wierdo hax jutsu, not Sasuke's, so I don't really see what it has to do with this debate.

Dark Soul # 7

11-20-2007, 09:19 AM

Well, let's look at Sasuke's Sharingan abilties, then:

Pre-Time Skip:

Jutsu Copy
Super Perception (Includes the ability to track super fast opponents, seeing through genjutsu, and seeing chakra flows at a lesser level then the Byakugan.)
Analytical Boost
Doujutsu (Hypnosis, and on higher levels, outright genjutsu via eye contact.)

Post-Time Skip:

Seeing the Kyuubi: Most likely a variant of the Super perception (chakra flow) ability, apparently restricted to the Kyuubi Jinchuriki. Requires high level mastery of the Sharingan, according the Kyuubi.
Suppressing the Kyuubi: May or may not be a Sharingan power. Either way, the Kyuubi hints at a connection between itself and the Uhicha (specifically, Madara) which will probably be explained in the future.
Telescopic, microscopic and x-ray vision: Variant of super perception. Note that the Sharingan in basically an evolved/mutated Byakugan, so this isn't really a stretch.

Am I forgetting something?He didn't actually start using genjutsu with his sharingan until part 2. But that's a minor note since genjutsu was always an established part of the sharingan power-set. Sasuke just didn't use it.

Totoro Man

11-20-2007, 01:09 PM

You kind of answered you own question. The fact that he tried to over power Itachi with the Chidori the first time he had the chance to fight him is a classic example of Sasuke losing his cool, and thus losing the fight before it even began. So yes Sasuke's weakness could be seen as Itachi.

um, yeah.

except even if Sasuke hadn't lost his cool he was hopeless out-matched against Itachi at the time. there's simply no way he could have possibly defeated him. that's simply being outclassed in every way. that doesn't mean that you have any inherent weaknesses, does it?

I merely "kind of" asnwered my own question. yes, Sasuke can get overcome by emotions and fight in an irrational manner against Itachi. he certainly did that once, because he probably imagined that the Chidori was so effective against the quite powerful Gaara that it would have a similar effect on Itachi. and it simply didn't.

but he hasn't done that lately, has he? if the most recent rematch between Itachi and Sasuke is worth remembering then current Sasuke has no known weaknesses. just because Dedeira could flatten nearly everything within a 10 kilometer radius (clearly narrative hyperbole) doesn't mean that Sasuke's "weak" against that. and it obviously didn't hurt him THAT much anyways! :rolleyes:

SAMAS

11-20-2007, 04:01 PM

Considering that to survive it, he had to summon the biggest snake he could and hide inside of it while escaping, and still got hurt (and Manda killed), I'd say it did. :D

Ghost

11-21-2007, 04:32 AM

He didn't actually start using genjutsu with his sharingan until part 2. But that's a minor note since genjutsu was always an established part of the sharingan power-set. Sasuke just didn't use it.

Hm. You are correct, my mistake.

Considering that to survive it, he had to summon the biggest snake he could and hide inside of it while escaping, and still got hurt (and Manda killed), I'd say it did. :D

Over-all a strange way to end that fight. I suppose that with someone like Deidara, a giant explosion as a finale is to be expected, but still...

Anyway, why does Sasuke even need weaknesses? He's an antagonist now, after all. It's not like the Akatsuki come with easily exploitable Achillies heels or anything.

Nik Hasta

11-21-2007, 08:58 AM

Anyway, why does Sasuke even need weaknesses? He's an antagonist now, after all. It's not like the Akatsuki come with easily exploitable Achillies heels or anything.

*muttermutterKazukushouldhavebeenawesomebutwasn't! muttermutter*

Dark Soul # 7

11-21-2007, 09:12 AM

Anyway, why does Sasuke even need weaknesses? He's an antagonist now, after all. It's not like the Akatsuki come with easily exploitable Achillies heels or anything.Ehm...

Deidara: He was about as sucky at taijutsu as Gaara, and one of the most unstable characters in the series.
Sasori: He had a big slabb of meat that was basically a target sign once you knew about it.
Konan: Use water or fire jutsus and she seems to be easy pickings.
Pein: All his bodies only have one ability each. While all are kage-level that can be exploited, like Jiraiya showed.
Itachi: He's going blind from his bloodline.

Kisame, Kakuzu and Hidan doesn't have any appearant weaknesses. When it comes to Zetsu and Tobara we know too little about them.

I'm not saying that the stuff I've listed is like kryptonite for them. But they did/do have a weakness that could be exploited by skilled ninjas

literally exaggerated

11-21-2007, 01:02 PM

in that sense Sasuke has weaknesses too. I mean, cut off *his* head and you've just gone headless corpse and one dead head, which is even better than Hidan

superbatman86

11-21-2007, 01:04 PM

Ehm...

Deidara: He was about as sucky at taijutsu as Gaara, and one of the most unstable characters in the series.
Sasori: He had a big slabb of meat that was basically a target sign once you knew about it.
Hidan: Cut of his head and you have one immobile body and one trash-talking severed head.Konan: Use water or fire jutsus and she seems to be easy pickings.
Pein: All his bodies only have one ability each. While all are kage-level that can be exploited, like Jiraiya showed.
Itachi: He's going blind from his bloodline.

Kisame doesn't have any appearant weaknesses. When it comes to Zetsu and Tobara we know too little about them.

I'm not saying that the stuff I've listed is like kryptonite for them. But they did/do have a weakness that could be exploited by skilled ninjasUhh I think cutting ANYONES head off would be a weakness.

GrampaGen

11-21-2007, 03:08 PM

Konan: Use water or fire jutsus and she seems to be easy pickings.

QFT. Heck she was defeated by what essentially amounts to a loogie.

A Hokage-sized loogie, but a loogie nonetheless.

DAMMIT WOMAN!!!

Dark Soul # 7

11-21-2007, 04:09 PM

in that sense Sasuke has weaknesses too. I mean, cut off *his* head and you've just gone headless corpse and one dead head, which is even better than HidanUhh I think cutting ANYONES head off would be a weakness.Yeah, I did not think that one through very much. I just thought that the sentence was funny. I should change that.

The Real Nemo

11-21-2007, 08:03 PM

Konan: Use water or fire jutsus and she seems to be easy pickings.
Water doesn't seem to effect her abilities, and fire is unknown since we've never seen it used against her. The only thing we've seen so far that's able to stop them is being covered in oil.
Itachi: He's going blind from his bloodline.
Has that ever been firmly established? I though it was just a fan theory based on vague statements...

Kage Kisaragi

11-21-2007, 08:59 PM

Water doesn't seem to effect her abilities, and fire is unknown since we've never seen it used against her. The only thing we've seen so far that's able to stop them is being covered in oil.

Has that ever been firmly established? I though it was just a fan theory based on vauge statements...

As far Itachi goes, yeah in the anime they were a little more elabrate about it. Something about how Itachi missed the fact that Kakashi had used a clone to avoid the Mangekyo. However its kind of irrelevant since that was a clone who was at 33% or less real power of the actual Itachi.

Ghost

11-22-2007, 12:59 AM

Deidara: He was about as sucky at taijutsu as Gaara, and one of the most unstable characters in the series.

I dunno. He was specialized/imbalanced, but that kinda comes with being a long-range fighter.

Sasori: He had a big slabb of meat that was basically a target sign once you knew about it.

Being vulnerable to getting stabbed through the heart just means he wasn't completely invulnerable. Same can be said for Sasuke.

Konan: Use water or fire jutsus and she seems to be easy pickings.

Has she actually done anything, though?

Pein: All his bodies only have one ability each. While all are kage-level that can be exploited, like Jiraiya showed.

Again, "not being more awesome" is hardly a weakness.

Itachi: He's going blind from his bloodline.

Has that ever been firmly established? I though it was just a fan theory based on vague statements...

I thought he was going blind from overusing the MS?

Kisame, Kakuzu and Hidan doesn't have any appearant weaknesses. When it comes to Zetsu and Tobara we know too little about them.

I'm not saying that the stuff I've listed is like kryptonite for them. But they did/do have a weakness that could be exploited by skilled ninjas

Still, it's not like Sasuke is invincible and infallible; he's just extremely fast, balanced and versetile. Deidara still came very close to killing him.

SAMAS

11-23-2007, 05:56 AM

Hm. You are correct, my mistake.

Over-all a strange way to end that fight. I suppose that with someone like Deidara, a giant explosion as a finale is to be expected, but still...

Anyway, why does Sasuke even need weaknesses? He's an antagonist now, after all. It's not like the Akatsuki come with easily exploitable Achillies heels or anything.

Because everyone has weaknesses. Especially antagonists. How do you think the hero beats him?

Nik Hasta

11-23-2007, 07:08 AM

Deidara still came very close to killing him.

If we ignore the annoying;

Sasuke: "Wow, that was a hard fight I'm like totally out of Chakra so I can barely move,"

Deidara: "Well time to use my awesome 10km engulfing suicide bomb attack so at least I take you down with me,"

Sasuke: "Wait! What?"

Deidara: "It's a good thing you're totally out of Chakra to the point where moving is difficult otherwise this would all be pointless,"

Sasuke: "... Oh, look some Chakra I had forgotten about, Manda look into my eyes!"

Manda: "WTF?! ALL HAIL THE HYPNO-SASUKE!" *Eats Sasuke and swooshes into Time/Space Vortex of Summonage*

Deidara: "Well my death is entirely pointless right now,"

*BOOM*

If we ignore that; yes Deidara got close.

Kage Kisaragi

11-23-2007, 07:11 AM

Sasuke is the awesome Super Ninja and a convincing liar.. hahahah, even fooled the readers. lol

Ghost

11-23-2007, 09:56 AM

Because everyone has weaknesses. Especially antagonists. How do you think the hero beats him?

The Power of Friendship? ;)

Sasuke: "... Oh, look some Chakra I had forgotten about, Manda look into my eyes!"

Manda: "WTF?! ALL HAIL THE HYPNO-SASUKE!" *Eats Sasuke and swooshes into Time/Space Vortex of Summonage*

LOL! :D

Yes, yes. Even I have admited that incident was downright strange.

Len Ikari145

11-23-2007, 04:03 PM

The Power of Friendship? ;)

LOL! :D

Yes, yes. Even I have admited that incident was downright strange.

I second that LOL!.:D

In fact, I'm sigging it.

Maikofan

11-25-2007, 05:07 PM

I think it's time for an essay on Sasuke whole meaning of contreversy and how his way is either admirable or disguesting but effective and justisfiable, some of you really undermine and underestimate Sasuke’s character sometimes, and if anything Sasuke has good interests at hand from time to time,, like at the vote fight, Some people are saying that Sasuke was trying to attain the Mangekyou by attempting to kill Naruto in 308-309. What I'm saying is that it wasn't the case. The truth is, Sasuke didn't believe he could achieve Mangekyou by killing Naruto. Let me explain.

First of all, let's see what Sasuke was saying pre-timeskip in the Valley of the End, so that we can properly compare it to his mindset and actions post-timeskip.

Originally Posted by Chapter 225, page 19
Sasuke-
"It was not meaningless. To me, you have become my closest friend."

Originally Posted by Chapter 226, page 4
Sasuke-
"That is why it is worth killing you."

Sasuke acknowledges that Naruto is a very important person in his life, and carries the bond of a closest friend with him. Even when he says it's worth killing Naruto, he still acknowledges that they are closest friends. In fact, it's because they're closest friends, that he says that.

It's further shown even in the flashback to the VotE fight:

Originally Posted by Chapter 307, page 10
(Flashback)
Naruto-
"Because to me... you represent bonds I've waited so long to make."

....
(Flashback)
Sasuke-
"In that case, I only need sever those bonds!"

Again confirms that he holds a bond with Naruto, yet believes that he will cut it. And what's the basis of acquiring the Mangekyou Sharingan? That's right: having a particular type of bond with someone.

However post-timeskip, we do see a difference, though a few may not understand it quite yet:

Originally Posted by Chapter 307, page 16
.. you're going to end up losing your life, all at a whim of mine.

Pretty different from "it is worth killing you" and "you are my closest friend", right? But let's not stop there. Let's look a bit earlier in the chapter.

Originally Posted by Chapter 307, page 6-7
Sai-
In order to prevent their bonds with you from breaking...
In order to keep them intact, they're doing everything they can...
I still don't have a very good understanding of it myself. But you, Sasuke-kun, you should know why.

Sasuke-
Sure, I did know. And that's why I severed them.

Sasuke believes that he cut all bonds, including his bond as a best friend to Naruto after leaving the Valley of the End, which confirms what he said about "I'll sever those bonds" pretimeskip.
And later:

Originally Posted by Chapter 307, page 11
Naruto-
"Why didn't you kill me back then!? Is that what you call severing bonds!? Sasuke!!"

Sasuke-
"... The reason is simple... And it isn't that I wasn't able to sever my bonds with you..."

He again clarifies that he not only cut his bonds with Team 7 as a whole, but also with Naruto specifically.

Originally Posted by Chapter 307, page 12
Sasuke-
"I simply didn't want to give *him* the pleasure of seeing me attain power by submitting to his plans."

And this pretty much confirms that Sasuke doesn't believe he could get the Mangekyou by killing Naruto as of now, but he did back then. The reason is because we see that Sasuke still holds the same disgust of achieving power the way that Itachi has layed out for him. If Sasuke believed he would attain the MS by killing Naruto at this time, then he wouldn't try to kill him. This is exemplified perfectly with how he already explained that he cut his bonds with Konoha, Team 7, and Naruto. If he already cut his bonds with Naruto, and Team 7, then there's no danger of achieving power the way that Itachi has layed out for him, since in this case, it would be impossible to achieve the Mangekyou. And it's a clear contrast to even his behavior in the Valley of the End when he said that there's "worth" in killing Naruto, because he acknowledged that he still had an important bond with him, and cutting that bond would make him stronger. Post-timeskip he believes (or has fooled himself into believing) that he has cut those bonds, and thus cannot achieve Mangekyou.

So, why try to kill Naruto and Team 7 you ask? It was to prove both to himself and to them that he no longer had any ties to Konoha that would hold him back in his goal. Killing Naruto but not attaining the Mangekyou would be the affirmation that he was succeeding in his attempts of becoming a true avenger, unhindered by the weakening that comes with excessive bonds.

Now this wasn't for the people who already believed this; it was for those who were arguing the opposite and/or were unsure. Regardless, I'd like to know what people actually think. I know many don't even read the opening post and just vote in polls, but I'd like to know what people believed he was saying. If you disagree, please try to make an argument based upon the facts. And if you vote the opposite, I'd like to hear why.

And note, I'm not arguing if Sasuke did cut all his bonds; I'm arguing that he believes or has fooled himself into believing that he did. Two separate things entirely.

CONTINUED.......

Maikofan

11-25-2007, 05:13 PM

Sasuke’s isn’t a total jerk, because he feels his emotions and bonds make him weaker towards the opposition, that causes him to do these things that most of you would find unforgivable. But it’s in his views, and better interests and they work. Plus, some of you like you said hate sasuke because he’s somewhat of a big player in this manga in terms of power.

Once you really look at it, isn't that one of the top real reasons that people don't say, but influences them to not like or like his character? I believe that Kishimoto created too strong of a character in Sasuke, meaning that his very presence in the story equals and even at times overpowers the main character, Naruto. I'm not saying that Sasuke is the main character of the series "NARUTO" (um no, everyone already knows this), but I'm saying that he could easily be a main character for another series, and is obviously the second most important character in the show. He has his own goals which are totally different from Naruto's which means they don't intersect with each other. I don't know if any of you noticed, but every important person's goal in the series so far has something to do with Naruto, or is similar/same to Naruto's dream of wanting to protect everybody.

Sasuke has alot of things which make him main character material, and therefore too strong of a character:

1. Has a special ability, making it shown as the strongest natural (bloodline) ability that you can have (Sharingan); not talking about demons

2. Has his own sub-story and dreams which are still ongoing, separate, and completely different from the main character's. This is an anomaly since usually secondary main characters have their main conflict resolved soon (i.e: Vegeta with Frieza in DBZ), or else they don't really have a main conflict except for a growing rivalry with the main character(i.e: Rukawa and Sakuragi in 'Slam Dunk')

3. Has a main 'boss' type antagonist who wants him for his abilities and potential. I mean think about it, in a typical shonen manga both Orochimaru and the Akatsuki would want Naruto. But in this one, Sasuke is given equal importance and is in the same type of danger as Naruto if they're taken over/extracted.

4. Has a special seal which allows him to unlock his 'hidden' powers, and allows him to transform into a being with more power. He is the only one now, currently living, who has that seal of those we know of.

5. Stated as the only one who can defeat a certain person's techniques

6. Already has a possible main love interest by one of the main characters.

7. Trained personally by two of the arguably greatest geniuses currently living; With Kakashi, Sasuke recieved his one unique jutsu (at that time), and now he trains with one of the ninjas most people here believe is one of the strongest in the world.

Now seriously, if people who had never seen the series before were to look at these points objectively, who would you think they would pick as the main character? My guess is that it would be 50/50 personally, and I'm being conservative with it. Not even Vegeta from DBZ (of which is Kishimoto's greatest inspiration) has such a central and independent role as Sasuke.

Now once you think through all of that, consider all the times that Naruto recieved the majority of the spotlight:

1. Obviously first couple of chapters, Sasuke wasn't there.
2. The end of the Haku fight, which ironically for the most part, focused on Sasuke during the fight. It was when Sasuke was knocked out that Naruto showed his true powers and the focus shifted briefly back onto him (with his whole speech to Zabuza and emergence of Kyuubi), until Sasuke woke up again after Zabuza was dead.
3. The Neji fight, but that was treated as second-fiddle in importance to Sasuke's fight against Gaara. And they were all waiting for Sasuke even during that time.
4. The Gaara fight in the forest. This I think, was an honest representation of Naruto getting the spotlight.
5. Tsunade arc, but remember that Sasuke was in the hospital
6. Beginning of the Sasuke arc, but even then Sasuke was in a barrel
7. So far, much of Part 2. But even then Sasuke hasn't shown up yet.

*note: preliminary chuunin exam fights don't count since it focused on everyone. And even then, Sasuke was knocked out from the sealing.

Notice a pattern here? Judging from all this, the only way Kishimoto could have a way for Sasuke to not take away the story from the main character or affect it, is when Sasuke is either incapacitated in any way (mostly by being unconcious), or else he's just not there. The only time when Naruto definitely takes the spotlight away from him when their both there at their capacities is during the Gaara fight in the forest.

Kishimoto said himself that he needed to create a rival for Naruto, but it seems the character he's created has grown bigger than imagined. I believe that Kishimoto, by making such a strong rival character, has bitten off more than he wanted to chew and probably has changed alot of his original idea to accommodate Sasuke.

And that's why I think so many people hate him on this and other boards. He's just too strong of a character, and he's his own person who's independent of the main character. I notice that many people use the reasoning that he betrayed his village and almost killed Naruto as something to hate him alot for. Yet I notice these same people say that Gaara, Neji, and Itachi are their favorite characters. Those people use the argument for Gaara and Neji that "they changed and became badass while Sasuke is still acting like a bitch." While that may be true to a certain extent, I believe there's more to it than that. These people are angry that Sasuke doesn't glorify Naruto like Neji and Gaara have come to do. Sasuke is Naruto's equal in every sense of the word, so he doesn't try to emulate Naruto. What I believe is that even though Sasuke has already done so many times, these people want him to acknowledge Naruto. But they want it so that it's the same situation with Gaara and Neji. That as soon as does this, he loses his *own* uniqueness and *separate* story, and becomes merged into the general overall theme/story of the series. Thereby solidifying Naruto as the central and *only* main character, which is not the case right now.

*Btw, won't talk about the Itachi fans since it's most likely just because of the fact that he's a cool, cold-blooded killer that he's so popular. But I find it strange for those who actually compare Sasuke's actions to Itachi's actions, or somehow say that Sasuke is worse than him in any way. That's just idiot talk and not credible at all.

Obviously this doesn't apply to all the Sasuke haters, as some actually don't like him just because they dislike his character, which is cool since we can't all like the same thing. Yet characteristics of the "OMG! Sauce-kay is lyke gay!" type people seem to be that they want him removed permanently from the story, and/or wishing for things like Naruto kills Itachi and "beats Sasuke for lyke 10 chapters str8!!11" thereby removing Sasuke's separate existence and his own independence from the main character and making Sasuke just a Neji clone.

Therefore, I've concluded that Sasuke is too strong of a character which is the reason why there are so many topics and controversies around him. When he's on the scene, he usually shares the spotlight or dominates, as the trend has proven.

CONTINUED...

Maikofan

11-25-2007, 05:15 PM

Without a character like this, this manga would have a boring fanbase, because this dude generates so much mixed emotions and reactions, it’s a total conundrum, that one of Kishi’s most favorite characters has turned out to be the most controversial Japanese character in this generation, people are simply not used to this character since they are used to the standard and the classic themes incorperated in so many fictions since hamlet and Beowulf. The moral way, but characters like Sasuke break the trend and create a new concept of story writing. Besides, Sasuke’s still has holes to fill if he’s ever going to complete his character and live up to his Hype, For instance,

Madara states in 371 (Hisshoubouraiken):
Things are moving right along...

I look forward to watching you develop, Sasuke...
Will you remain a snake? Or shed your serpentine scales and become a hawk?

If Madara's words are to be taken into account, Sasuke can be either the snake or the hawk.

This of course, is not the first reference. This analogy allusion was already made previously post-timeskip in chapter 344 which I'm sure everyone still remembers. In the confrontation with Orochimaru, Sasuke first likened himself to a hatchling hawk:

Chapter 344, page 13 (Hisshoubouraiken translation):

Sasuke: Though the snake dreams of soaring through the sky,
he is forever doomed to crawl on his belly.

You stalked the nest, trying to single out the runt of the litter...
but in the end, your intended prey came after you.
---
He then completes the analogy by indicating he's a matured hawk, one who's capable of defending itself from the "snake":

Chapter 344, page 14+15 (Hisshoubouraiken)
Sasuke: You'll have your chance to fly, snake...in the talons of a hawk.

An interesting note is the particular word usage Sasuke used in the original Japanese in this case (which is one of the things lost in translation). What he stated to Orochimaru was the Japanese idiom: 鷹の目 ("taka no me"), literally meaning "the eyes of a hawk". This idiomatic expression has the connotation of a predator bearing down on its prey; the actual words chosen are meant to refer to the gleam in a hawk's eyes once it has spotted its next meal. If this is taken into account, the previous statement of Sasuke being the baby hawk who was targeted by the snake, transforming into the matured hawk who targets it in return, can really be quite ironic.

Of course these aren't the only hawk/bird symbolism seen within the story. We all know about Chidori (Thousand Birds) as well as its Habataku form ("habataku" is a verb referring to a fluttering [of wings]), Sasuke's hairstyle, and of course the images of him flying on a bird or his cursed seal of heaven, level 2 form. There is also Sasuke's connection to Itachi who himself is known for using crows as symbolism, and not to mention the Uchiha clan secret meeting which has phoenix-like paintings on the wall (perhaps hinting at an Uchiha connection with birds in general)

On the other hand, the snake connection is quite heavy as well. Not only have we actually seen him use snake summons, or the few covers out there with Sasuke riding a large snake as representation of the neo-Sannin, but Sasuke has also named his team "Snake" in order to fulfill his life's purpose. The snake symbolism is quite evident even if you take a look at mythological influences, if you are inclined to think Sasuke represents Susanoo. Susanoo is not only known as the master of snakes, but in the legend, he defeated the snake demon, Yamata no Orochi, and retrieved the Sword of Kusanagi; One of the other translations for the Kusanagi means "sword of the snake" (this can refer to both the origin of the name and the original ownership of the blade). The Susanoo and Orochi analogies are pretty evident if you examine both Sasuke and Orochimaru, and take note of just how much Kishimoto is influenced by mythology.

If we are to take into account all the symbolism, I believe we can begin to narrow down what the implication of the "hawk" versus "snake" refers to. The few concrete things we can reasonably assume is that:
-the snake can only aspire to what the hawk achieves ("flying" in this case can be symbolism for something else)
-one cannot be both a hawk and a snake
-It can refer to being a predator or the prey: Matured hawk>snake>baby hawk

I also believe that another valid point of view to think about is what exactly a "snake" and a "hawk" would connotate. Snakes in mythology represent many things, however I will quote wikipedia in a few particularly interesting cases:

Originally Posted by wiki
Serpents are connected with poison and medicine. The snake's venom is associated with the chemicals of plants and fungi[1][2] [3] that have the power to either heal, poison or provide expanded consciousness (and even the elixir of life and immortality) through divine intoxication.

White snake ability.

Originally Posted by wiki
Serpents are connected with renewal or regeneration. This trait is connected with the practice of snakes of shedding their old skin and growing a new one.

Originally Posted by wiki
Serpents are connected with vengefulness and vindictiveness. This connection depends in part on the experience that poisonous snakes often deliver deadly defensive bites without giving prior notice or warning to their unwitting victims. Although a snake is defending itself from the encroachment of its victim into the snake's immediate vicinity, the unannounced and deadly strike may seem unduly vengeful when measured against the unwitting victim's lack of blameworthiness.
The serpent is also connected with legends indicating it to be as the "deceiver" and is typically the evil antagonist. There is also a legend in referring to the Midgard serpent which grasped its own tail (or the ourobouros which swallowed its own), encircling the world and representing the totality of existence (could represent the influence of the snake upon its surrounding environment or in the plotline in this case.) The Midgard serpent's rival is Thor, coincidentally, known as the god of war and thunder in Norse mythology.

And also, with the Susanoo and Midgard serpent aspect as well, the snake is associated with the element of thunder (perhaps hinting at Sasuke's skill with lightning nature).

While most of the serpent symbolism seems to apply to Orochimaru's character (as it should), quite a few parts do apply to Sasuke as we can see for ourselves.

Admittedly there's not as much surrounding the symbolization of the "hawk" in mythology, however there are a few things the hawk is known for. Here's some important symbolism:

As a high-flying raptor, the hawk shares much of the symbolism of the eagle. It is associated with light, royalty, power, the sun, watchfulness, and the heavens. Many solar gods have the hawk as an attribute or messenger. Gods portrayed in the form of hawks or as being hawk-headed are almost always sun gods. Like the eagle, the true hawk was thought capable of staring directly into the sun.

In ancient Egypt, the hawk was considered a royal bird and a symbol of the soul (ba). Egyptians believed that the ba of a mummy walked the earth, visiting the body from time to time, until eventually being reunited with the resurrected body. The Egyptian sphinx is sometimes hawk-headed. According to Egyptian mythology Isis, in the shape of a hawk, fluttered above the body of her dead husband while she conceived Horus (the son who would avenge his death). Almos, the founder of Hungary, was believed to have been sired by a hawk named Turel while his mother, Emese, was dreaming.

In Greco-Roman mythology, the hawk is the 'swift messenger of Apollo,' and is associated with the sorceress, Circe. Aztecs also considered the hawk a messenger of the gods. Gayatri is the Hindu hawk who brought an intoxicating drink of immortality known as 'soma' from heaven. He is also a vehicle of Indra. Polynesians endowed the hawk with the powers of prophecy and healing. The Chinese associated this bird with war.

Because of the hawk's swiftness in darting down and grasping its prey, this raptor is a symbol of death, injustice, violence, and those people who prey upon the weak. In Christian symbolism this bird is the antithesis of the dove. However, Lactantius taught that at Christ's return "the dove shall be united with the hawk" (The Epitome of the Divine Institutes, Chapt. 72 - Early Church Fathers, Ante-Nicene).

More

I find it interesting that the most famous hawk symbolism is the connection with Horus, the one who was created to get vengeance for his father (having a connection with the serpent in terms of being a creature known for vengeance). The Japanese view on vengeance is influenced by the concept of Bushido, which itself is heavily in-line with the story of Isis, Osiris, and Horus where it states that avenging your parents is the highest honor anyone can have. This falls in line with the hawk being seen as a symbol for an "avenger" or "protector" (much like Sasuke). And unlike the case with the serpent, it would seem as if hawks are associated with sun or fire, much like the Uchiha clan was associated with having fire-natured chakras.

With Madara's statement in 371, it would seem as if the hawk and snake represent not only two symbols, but two different paths Sasuke as a character can take. Whether it's a literal meaning in that we'll maybe see some hawk summons in the future (like we do with the snake summons), or a symbolical one representing a fulfillment of a certain destiny, I have no doubt this will characterize the type of character Sasuke is in the future. There are hints enough already on how things are meant to go however:

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/4620/80734688nf3.jpg

He’s flying high…

Maikofan

11-25-2007, 05:23 PM

Sasuke is too vague but it’s justified, his arrogance and overconfidence pisses off people but it’s just a quirk of his to cope with life, since he could be like Shinji and feel sorry for himself, but hey he just disses people and inflates his own ego, like Kanye West. Is that really a hateble trait, to be arrogant? Because it’s a human emotion that millions of people use to hide their deepest insecurities in Sasuke’s case he’s a insecure theme park, that’s why like Naruto he fucking gets serious and kick ass anytime any place, plus it’s his character which again I’ll establish for you all….It's always been apparent that this was the case, but I feel that the latest chapter can only do one thing but confirm that Sasuke is not the traditional hero character, and he is most definitely not an evil character or villain. He's the only representation in this series of the "grey character"; or more precisely, an anti-hero.

Originally Posted by Chapter 342, page 18
Orochimaru: You didn't kill any of them. You're still too soft.
Sasuke: They aren't the ones I want to kill.

Originally Posted by Chapter 344 translation by hisshoubouraiken
Page 4:
Sasuke: And as someone who carries that name, from my point of view
your attempts to obtain our power are so disgusting they're almost funny. Saturating yourself with drugs and medicines? Transferring bodies?
Your methods are pointless. Do you even have a goal anymore?
You claim to be seeking the reason behind existance,
yet all you do is make petty excuses for playing God with people's lives.

Page 5:
Sasuke: Brother...
Why?

Itachi: To measure my capability.

Sasuke: Measure...your capability?
That's...it?
You killed...everyone...for that?

Itachi: It was very important that I did.

Page 6:
Sasuke: You sicken me.

Anti-heroes are almost characteristically defined for being driven by pain, loss, tragedy, and are pursuant upon a noble or tragic purpose with perhaps questionable means. They almost always make hard choices and walk on both paths of light and darkness.

And for those who want a source:

Originally Posted by wiki- anti-hero
In literature and film, an anti-hero has widely come to mean a fictional character who has some characteristics that are antithetical to those of the traditional hero. An anti-hero in today's books and films will perform acts generally deemed "heroic," but will do so with methods, manners, or intentions that may not be heroic. The actual use of the word, however, is fairly recent, and its primary meaning has somewhat changed. As recently as 1940, the 600,000-word Merriam-Webster New International Dictionary, Second Edition, listed it but without a definition. By 1992 the American Heritage Dictionary of the American Language defined an anti-hero only as "a main character in a dramatic or narrative work who is characterized by a lack of traditional heroic qualities, such as idealism or courage," not as a person who nevertheless performs heroic acts.

....

In other words, an anti-hero is a protagonist that lives by the guidance of their own moral compass, striving to define and construe their own values as opposed to those recognized by the society in which they live. Additionally, the work may depict how their character alters over time, either leading to punishment, un-heroic success, or redemption.

Sasuke is a clear example of an anti-hero, as this has shown:

*He not only abhors ALL people like Itachi (instead of just), but also set boundaries on what he would and would not do. He would never allow himself to become like Itachi or Orochimaru for that matter, nor would he fall to their level. He considers those things such as taking drugs or playing with people's lives as pathetic.

*He doesn't want to involve his former friends (Team 7) into his ambition and tries to make them forget about him (such as lying to them that he'll give his body to Oro, just so they see their task of bringing him back is hopeless). He won't kill others for his amusement (as seen from chapter 342-343) despite Orochimaru's goading, and in fact would prefer that he doesn't kill at all, unless if it's Itachi or people like Itachi. In fact he has never killed anyone through Orochimaru's prodding even after all this time, judging from the comment, "You're still too soft".

*His goal of avenging his fallen clan is both noble and tragic from the Japanese culture's point of view, and we can see in this chapter that he obviously has great pride for their memory and is doing it for their memory (and that's an understatement xD). In fact, I already believed this as soon as Sasuke made an appearance after timeskip on him still wearing the Uchiha emblem on his clothing (see thread). That indicated that he still kept their memory in mind and knew why exactly he was doing things, instead of being lost in the forest of revenge. Basically, if he felt that he was shaming the Uchiha honor, then he wouldn't dare wear the Uchiha fan emblem at all, like Itachi.

And not only that, but regardless of the prior criticism of being "selfish", it is shown that the effects of Sasuke's ambition do not have worse consequences for the world at large. In fact his ambition would only help the world through his plans, since he planned on killing both Orochimaru and Itachi (Konoha's and even the world's biggest threats) regardless of whether he actually succeeds at it or not.

A sidenote is that this also dispells the former criticism that Sasuke is too "flat" or lost his flair as a character from what happened in 309. We now see that it was all a front and that Sasuke continues to remain the character he always was.

On the other hand, this also greatly hints and foreshadows that Sasuke will not be another Gaara, Neji, or Sai clone, only following Naruto's path (basically a pure "light" path). Unlike the prior version of Gaara for example, Sasuke as he is right now is in a balance; basically he already has a clear boundary on what he will and will not do. He already shares the important characteristics of good characters, such as the disdain for using other people as tools, or being unnecessarily evil. He doesn't want to involve others because he sees this as a personal duty, and he will not kill others if it's not necessary (basically if they don't threaten his vengeance). His stubbornness is among the greatest in the series, which has been proven time and time again (to even using the cursed seal without losing his individuality and free will). His true ambition is to achieve vengeance for his clan; not to cause chaos or destruction. The only reason he's against Konoha in any case was basically due to affiliation with Orochimaru and nothing more. He has no ill will towards them or anyone else besides Itachi and people like him. Considering all of this, Sasuke has shown that he can find his own path different from others, and if he were to change his path, it would be to his efforts (as he's doing right now, going against Orochimaru).

With all of this, and with Naruto, Sakura, and Kakashi having this faith in Sasuke, it's quite clear that Kishimoto has given Sasuke a unique place as the anti-hero of the story. Sasuke has shown why he deserves that distinction, and has shown that he hasn't lost himself in his path.

Basically Sasuke lives by the code of "The ends justify the means" Some people are upset right now because currently it looks like Sasuke was totally justified in leaving the village and joining Orochimaru for power. Sasuke seems to have completely gotten away with it without paying any real price at all.

CONTINUED....

Maikofan

11-25-2007, 05:30 PM

Obviously those of you who agreed with Sasuke from the beginning and supported his decision to go to Orochimaru don't have a problem with this, but nearly everything in the story itself made that out to be the wrong decision. In particular, Naruto, Sakura and everyone who participated in a rescue mission will be shown to have been misguided fools who should never have gotten in Sasuke's way from the beginning. That's pretty bizarre. I don't see how it was a wrong decision since looking at the big picture he is taking out (or trying to take out ) one of the biggest threats to Konoha ever. He left the village in search of power. He hasn't directly harmed/killed anyone from the village except for Naruto (and Sai but no one cares about that homo), and now he's going to use that power and take out a threat in his life. After that, he'll go after Itachi - another threat to Konoha.

He's doing what the ANBU root does, except while not being affiliated with the village. I don't see people crying about the way Danzou works anywhere.

We were led to believe that he was in the wrong, we were led to believe he had made a huge mistake and put Konoha in a lot of trouble by giving Oro the Sharingan. But the guy is trying to take care of that very problem himself. How is he in the wrong here?

No matter what happens now, win or lose, Sasuke is not going to be miraculously taught a lesson for leaving everyone behind.....because there is no lesson to be taught.

Remember what Kakashi said about revenge? That Sasuke should stop it, because even if he succeeds, there would be nothing but emptiness?

That's the only thing that you can really argue for, that Kishimoto is trying to portray. Kishimoto never said or hinted in the story that going into the "darkness" would not give you power (or even that it wouldn't give you enough power). In fact, it's the contrary. After all, the Akatsuki/Orochimaru are among the strongest in the series. Even when Yamato said to Naruto that he should try to save Sasuke with his own eyes, he acknowledged (at that time period) that using the Kyuubi would work as well (even faster even). He just said the reason why he shouldn't use it was because it would do more harm than good, for the purpose they're trying to achieve. Even Kakashi acknowledged that Sasuke could kill Itachi by following revenge.

Even when Kyuubi states, "Don't kill Naruto...you'll regret it", it's showing that yes Sasuke could achieve his objective, but it won't bring any happiness.

I'm just saying that Sasuke may change his heart in the future, but I sincerely doubt it would have anything to do with actual power or lack there-of from going to the dark-side. If Kishimoto really wanted that to be the message, then Sasuke would never be as strong as he is now, and he definitely wouldn't be able to challenge Orochimaru at this point, or do the feats that he did.

The question is not about, "You should have been in Konoha to get stronger", but rather, "You need to understand for yourself what's important and what truly matters." Don't be seriously surprised if Sasuke does achieve vengeance in this way, but then realizes for himself what's important to him afterwards (and thereby fulfilling Kakashi's statement). And besides, Sasuke already payed the price to himself when he made himself cut his bonds, and he acknowledged that he won't have any future happiness. Sasuke does know the meaning of sacrifice. And he knows the meaning of pain considering that he's already lost everything once, so it's not like he's never "payed the price".

Regardless, this is just about him being an anti-hero, which he's proven himself to be.

nobility: in running the police force and having the powerful Sharingan on their side. Life was great for Sasuke having a caring family, great future and an older brother. But after Itachi killed his family, which made Sasuke want to kill his brother almost making Sasuke become evil itself.

* Hero must be noble in nature, but imperfect so that the audience can see themselves in him.
* Hero must suffer more than he deserves.
* Hero's story should arouse fear and empathy.

He lost his family, lost some respect from leaving the village and now in the latest chapter lands him against a Sannin. Only to get power in which he is told is still not close to Itachi, whom has likely got stronger over the time-skip. Yeah it looks 'honorable' for Sasuke to kill Itachi but now with all these problems left for Itachi we can see he is in a jam.

* Hero must have discovered his fate by his own actions, not by things happening to him.
* Hero must be physically or spiritually wounded by his experiences, often resulting in his death.

he is learning what is good and bad. He might soon get caught by all these spiritual and soon-to-be physically, with fighting Oro, wounds he has taken. I don't know about death but he might die in the end fighting Itachi or beating Itachi and dying from his past mistakes.

* The hero must be intelligent so he may learn from his mistakes.

I don't know if Sasuke will follow this. He is intelligent but I think he is pushing all of his problem's other than Itachi/Orochimaru/Naruto in a chest and might feel the ramifications after his problems are somewhat resolved.

listen to the wise words of shake spear
"there's nor good or evil, only thoughts that make it so"

Sasuke is Neutral, and that makes him the most human out of all the characters, IMO.

Sasuke is almost an exotic tropical fish in a totally mundane pond full of gold fish, he breaks the trends and rules for the sake of individuality. His flaws only appear when he doesn’t believe in his own philosohopies, in Part one he tried to protect the village and save everyone, but it failed him, while Naruto came out victorious, his weakness in his eyes is his bonds, because the more he falls apart is when he wears his heart to his chest in inapropiate times, notice this formula Sasuke protects the people, he always gets defeated, while Naruto gets stronger from those bonds, it not coiencidence, Sasuke has always lost battle due to his emotional output for people other than himself, so Sasuke feels in order to feel more compatible he breaks bonds and cuts off contact to people that make him feel he’s growing weaker. If he has a weakness, it’s being to emotional attached to things that make him feel weak, it works for Naruto and Lee, but not Sasuke because he loses his unique style and establishment he’s developed over 300 chapters.

Sasuke not that bad and pathetic, Sasuke's not any more different than Eric Draven, Frank Castle, or Al Simmons. (All names from the movies, may or may not be cannon to comic books.) Each of these men took up their path and their power after an extreme tragedy. Sasuke may come off as arrogant, cocky, or an asshole, if you will, but he has his reasons and they're justified in my opinion. He's fighting for a good cause. Hence, anti-hero. He's very much a good and heroic person at heart, but his methods and his obsession with his goal cause him to do evil things. It's not that Sasuke's evil, nor deserves half the bullshit he gets from this forum, he's more... Pardon the expression, misunderstood. I don't think many people understand... What if Sasuke showed feelings towards someone other than himself? What would stop Itachi from reappearing and killing those people as well? Then where would Sasuke be? Back in the same boat, but with more people to avenge. Would Sasuke still be a jerk, or whatever you chose to call him, if Itachi had killed Naruto and Sasuke was swearing vengeance for Naruto? I think that just made people think... "Wait a second, but that's different... They were best friends." And Itachi murdered Sasuke's whole family... That doesn't deserve redemption? I'm sorry, but if someone murdered my whole family, I'd want to see them dead as well... By my own hands if possible. Sasuke's just out to avenge his family... Once that's done I'm sure he'll return to Konoha and, my personal hope, confess his feelings for Sakura and reform his clan. And if you want to get technical, he laugh for once in his life.'

FINISHED....

Maikofan

11-25-2007, 05:32 PM

Oh and for the last time, he's not a Jerkface.:mad:

Cut him some slack.

The Cool Thatguy

11-25-2007, 05:46 PM

Maikofan

11-25-2007, 05:51 PM

He would have killed Naruto were it not for Sai and Yamoto. So it's not for a lack of trying.

And you really misunderstood the point of the Rescue Sasuke arc. The emphasize was how Sasuke was going against everything his village and team stood for. It wasn't that they shouldn't stop Sasuke, the arguement that the Sound made was that they couldn't save Sasuke, because he willingly went to O. Big difference.

He's assuming authority he doesn't have for the sake of an agenda only he knows and supports in an effort to undermine the legitmate rulers of the village. How is that not wrong?He's trying to make a statement, Sasuke belives his blood is unique and rare, so he steps over authority and makes his own sense of harsh Justice. That makes him a Jewel in the rough, in his eyes.

Actually the whole arc was to save Sasuke from the sound 4, not to straigten Sasuke out, that was Naruto's personal goal, not the others.

And Sasuke could never kill Naruto, he stated he doesn't want to be his brothers puppet.

Plus how is he wrong for being self independant and aware? Danzou and Sai are the same.

You need to read the essay again because I explained why Sasuke has a reason for his self conquest.

The Cool Thatguy

11-25-2007, 06:48 PM

He's trying to make a statement, Sasuke belives his blood is unique and rare, so he steps over authority and makes his own sense of harsh Justice. That makes him a Jewel in the rough, in his eyes.

Actually the whole arc was to save Sasuke from the sound 4, not to straigten Sasuke out, that was Naruto's personal goal, not the others.

And Sasuke could never kill Naruto, he stated he doesn't want to be his brothers puppet.

Plus how is he wrong for being self independant and aware? Danzou and Sai are the same.

You need to read the essay again because I explained why Sasuke has a reason for his self conquest.

In order...

Sasuke's a poor judge of justice as he's thrown away his current life in memory of the past. It's not as if anyone in his village would have stopped him from killing his brother in time. Sasuke was just jealous of Naruto's power and was scared he was falling behind.

The emotional emphasize was that what Sasuke was doing was wrong, and the rookies had to save him because they were of the same village.

Sasuke stated straight up he was willing to kill Naruto. He simply stated that he spared Naruto in the past to defy his brother, but because of things like friendship or being loyal to his village. Even his reasoning for sparing Naruto's life was selfish.

Danzou (who is using Sai) is running his own agenda for the village in defiance of the legitmate authority of the village leaders, just like Sasuke. They have no right, legally or morally, to do what they do. That's why they've resorted to underhanded methods to accomplish their goals. That's what makes them villains.

And lastly, I don't need to read your essay. I don't deny that Sasuke has a legit reason to be pissed off. I was simply addressing several points within. I've no desire whatsoever to rebut the entire thing.

Chrosis

11-25-2007, 07:08 PM

Well, let's look at Sasuke's Sharingan abilties, then:

Pre-Time Skip:

Jutsu Copy
Super Perception (Includes the ability to track super fast opponents, seeing through genjutsu, and seeing chakra flows at a lesser level then the Byakugan.)
Analytical Boost
Doujutsu (Hypnosis, and on higher levels, outright genjutsu via eye contact.)

Post-Time Skip:

Seeing the Kyuubi: Most likely a variant of the Super perception (chakra flow) ability, apparently restricted to the Kyuubi Jinchuriki. Requires high level mastery of the Sharingan, according the Kyuubi.
Suppressing the Kyuubi: May or may not be a Sharingan power. Either way, the Kyuubi hints at a connection between itself and the Uhicha (specifically, Madara) which will probably be explained in the future.
Telescopic, microscopic and x-ray vision: Variant of super perception. Note that the Sharingan in basically an evolved/mutated Byakugan, so this isn't really a stretch.

Am I forgetting something?

I also have a hard time getting my head around the dimension dumping thing, but that's Kakashi's wierdo hax jutsu, not Sasuke's, so I don't really see what it has to do with this debate.

The thing the dimension dump has to do with the debate is that it is only usable through the Sharingan, thus making it an ability of the sharingan.

That branches specifically into the "WTF the Sharingan = Hax" debate, which incorporates Sasuke.

Maikofan

11-25-2007, 07:46 PM

Sasuke's a poor judge of justice as he's thrown away his current life in memory of the past.No, because it establishes his character as a anti hero with a sense of self idividuality and efficientcy. His justice is just right, it's self suffient and effective, and thats all that matters for a character like him.

not as if anyone in his village would have stopped him from killing his brother in time.I doubt anyone could stop Uchiha Itachi, the guy took down sannins when he was elven. Sasuke has a big responsibilty wiping him out since his problems, character development and tragedies revolve around him. Sasuke would have no story or build up if he didn't get revenge.

Sasuke was just jealous of Naruto's power and was scared he was falling behind.Thats opinated and biased, more it's because of Naruto he's falling behind in his quest to kill his brother and restore his clan, not jealousy, Naruto was just a reminder he wasn't progressing any faster.

The emotional emphasize was that what Sasuke was doing was wrong, and the rookies had to save him because they were of the same village.And yet, in part 2 his plans are working effortlessly and flawlessly without provocation, and Naruto had to be save two times by Yamato and Kakashi when if fought Sasuke again. Plus I really think you should re read my essay, and see where your whole arguement is broken up by mines, The Anti Hero part is all thats needed to refute this.

Sasuke stated straight up he was willing to kill Naruto. He simply stated that he spared Naruto in the past to defy his brother, but because of things like friendship or being loyal to his village. Even his reasoning for sparing Naruto's life was selfish.Originally Posted by Chapter 225, page 19
Sasuke-
"It was not meaningless. To me, you have become my closest friend."

I don't see that as selfish, I see that as nobilty.

Danzou (who is using Sai) is running his own agenda for the village in defiance of the legitmate authority of the village leaders, just like Sasuke. They have no right, legally or morally, to do what they do. That's why they've resorted to underhanded methods to accomplish their goals. That's what makes them villains.

And lastly, I don't need to read your essay. I don't deny that Sasuke has a legit reason to be pissed off. I was simply addressing several points within. I've no desire whatsoever to rebut the entire thing.Danzou defeated 3 of the Sannin, and he's a anti hero who allies with Naruto. Please read my essasy, because these are just contridictive arguements that are already stating the obvious, and I simply have a legit logic to refute these arguements.

That branches specifically into the "WTF the Sharingan = Hax" debate, which incorporates Sasuke.If the Sharigan=Hax, then why does Sasuke seem to not achieve MS then?

The Cool Thatguy

11-25-2007, 09:08 PM

No, because it establishes his character as a anti hero with a sense of self idividuality and efficientcy. His justice is just right, it's self suffient and effective, and thats all that matters for a character like him.

No, he's selfish because he puts his own wants above the needs of the village. Yes, it reflects his character, but not in a positive manner.

He left the village, with no authorization, to complete two things. But you'll remember, the village had just been attacked by both the Sand and the Sound. They were at their relative weakest. Anyone who leaves their country in a time of need for the sake of a personal grudge is selfish. No other way about it.

I doubt anyone could stop Uchiha Itachi, the guy took down sannins when he was elven. Sasuke has a big responsibilty wiping him out since his problems, character development and tragedies revolve around him. Sasuke would have no story or build up if he didn't get revenge.

Funny, I seem to recall both Kisame and Itachi running from the J Man, utterly convinced that they could not beat him and survive.

Thats opinated and biased, more it's because of Naruto he's falling behind in his quest to kill his brother and restore his clan, not jealousy, Naruto was just a reminder he wasn't progressing any faster.

And how exactly did Naruto hold Sasuke back? Oh yeah, by saving his life. The bastard.

And yet, in part 2 his plans are working effortlessly and flawlessly without provocation, and Naruto had to be save two times by Yamato and Kakashi when if fought Sasuke again. Plus I really think you should re read my essay, and see where your whole arguement is broken up by mines, The Anti Hero part is all thats needed to refute this.

Originally Posted by Chapter 225, page 19
Sasuke-
"It was not meaningless. To me, you have become my closest friend."

I don't see that as selfish, I see that as nobilty

And later Sasuke says he spared Naruto's life because he didn't want to be his brother's puppet and then tries to kill Naruto.

And Sasuke's 'flawless' plan ain't done yet. All he's done so far is recruit a few people. Itachi is still alive

Danzou defeated 3 of the Sannin, and he's a anti hero who allies with Naruto. Please read my essasy, because these are just contridictive arguements that are already stating the obvious, and I simply have a legit logic to refute these arguements..

I don't have to read anything. The above tells all I need to know, that you're barely following the series and reading only what suits your opinion.

It was Hanzo who defeated the 3 Sannin. He was in turn utterly wiped out by Pein. He has never, and likely never will, meet Naruto. He's not an anti-hero, he's a corpse.

Nor is Danzo some misunderstood ninja. He runs Root and is described as a war monger. He's a villain who's running his own agenda. He's a bad guy through and through.

Really, if you can't keep that much straight, why should I bother with the essay?

Chrosis

11-25-2007, 09:39 PM

If the Sharigan=Hax, then why does Sasuke seem to not achieve MS then?

Because he hasn't killed his best friend. You and I both know that.

And FYI, if you're cold hearted enough to do it, it's the easiest means of gaining tremendous power ever.

Ghost

11-25-2007, 11:01 PM

Some people are saying that Sasuke was trying to attain the Mangekyou by attempting to kill Naruto in 308-309.

Well, even if he did momentarily, he obviously changed his mind. I see no point in debating that.

Sasuke’s isn’t a total jerk, because he feels his emotions and bonds make him weaker towards the opposition, that causes him to do these things that most of you would find unforgivable. But it’s in his views, and better interests and they work. Plus, some of you like you said hate sasuke because he’s somewhat of a big player in this manga in terms of power.

Once you really look at it, isn't that one of the top real reasons that people don't say, but influences them to not like or like his character? I believe that Kishimoto created too strong of a character in Sasuke, meaning that his very presence in the story equals and even at times overpowers the main character, Naruto. I'm not saying that Sasuke is the main character of the series "NARUTO" (um no, everyone already knows this), but I'm saying that he could easily be a main character for another series, and is obviously the second most important character in the show. He has his own goals which are totally different from Naruto's which means they don't intersect with each other. I don't know if any of you noticed, but every important person's goal in the series so far has something to do with Naruto, or is similar/same to Naruto's dream of wanting to protect everybody.

Actually, Sasuke never overpowers Naruto. Quite the contrary, Sasuke is what empowers Naruto. Without Sasuke, Naruto would be much, much less because Sasuke is the very person who spurs him to become stronger and keep fighting. Sasuke is important as the driving force of the main character, and thus the story, though I doubt he'd make much of a main character himself.

Sasuke has alot of things which make him main character material, and therefore too strong of a character:

1. Has a special ability, making it shown as the strongest natural (bloodline) ability that you can have (Sharingan); not talking about demons

Problem: Unlike Naruto's Kyuubi it comes without significant drawbacks. The only negative aspect of the Sharingan is the loss of eyesight associated with the Mangekyo Sharingan, which Sasuke so far hasn't developed.

3. Has a main 'boss' type antagonist who wants him for his abilities and potential. I mean think about it, in a typical shonen manga both Orochimaru and the Akatsuki would want Naruto. But in this one, Sasuke is given equal importance and is in the same type of danger as Naruto if they're taken over/extracted.

Problem: Itachi is Sasuke's driving force the same way Sasuke is Naruto's. However, note that Sasuke's relationship with his brother is entirely aggressive on Sasuke's side; Sasuke hunts Itatchi, not the other way around. So far Itatchi has show very little actual interest in Sasuke, which makes him limited as a main villain.

In short, there are no high stakes. You'd end up with a story about a guy obsessing to kill his brother for no other reasons then revenge, which is an issue many readers find it hard to relate to.

5. Stated as the only one who can defeat a certain person's techniques

Note that this is not fact: there is too much diversity among the fighters of Naruto's world to say any single character can only ever be defeated by any other single character.

6. Already has a possible main love interest by one of the main characters.

Three, actually, but who's counting?

Also, the big problem with Sasuke's love interest is that they are heads over heel for him. He doesn't really have to struggle to win them over; in fact, he just needs to pick one. In order for his love life to be interesting at all, he'd have to represent the challenge, much like he already does. And that'd really piss off the male fanbase. (Because nothing is more aggravating then a guy who disdainfully turns down multiple beautiful and likable women who adore him.)

Now seriously, if people who had never seen the series before were to look at these points objectively, who would you think they would pick as the main character? My guess is that it would be 50/50 personally, and I'm being conservative with it.

Yeah, but you skip over a lot of information. Non of these points illustrate Naruto's strenghts as a character or any of Sasuke's shortcomings. You can't say two characters are of equal strenght as potential main characters based only on the things they have in common.

Notice a pattern here? Judging from all this, the only way Kishimoto could have a way for Sasuke to not take away the story from the main character or affect it, is when Sasuke is either incapacitated in any way (mostly by being unconcious), or else he's just not there. The only time when Naruto definitely takes the spotlight away from him when their both there at their capacities is during the Gaara fight in the forest.

I disagree. Quite the contrary: its the interaction between the two of them, and the relationship between them, that really brings out the best -or worst- in them.

All good stories have a relationship between two or more people at its core, and is then built around the tensions within this relationship. That's the power of Naruto and Sasuke; one cannot be said to be a stronger character then the other because both give the other strenght.

Kishimoto said himself that he needed to create a rival for Naruto, but it seems the character he's created has grown bigger than imagined. I believe that Kishimoto, by making such a strong rival character, has bitten off more than he wanted to chew and probably has changed alot of his original idea to accommodate Sasuke.

Not at all. Sasuke's entire history in the story has so far been geared towards empowering Naruto.

Sasuke is too vague but it’s justified, his arrogance and overconfidence pisses off people but it’s just a quirk of his to cope with life, since he could be like Shinji and feel sorry for himself, but hey he just disses people and inflates his own ego, like Kanye West. Is that really a hateble trait, to be arrogant? Because it’s a human emotion that millions of people use to hide their deepest insecurities in Sasuke’s case he’s a insecure theme park, that’s why like Naruto he fucking gets serious and kick ass anytime any place, plus it’s his character which again I’ll establish for you all….It's always been apparent that this was the case, but I feel that the latest chapter can only do one thing but confirm that Sasuke is not the traditional hero character, and he is most definitely not an evil character or villain. He's the only representation in this series of the "grey character"; or more precisely, an anti-hero.

Anti-heroes are almost characteristically defined for being driven by pain, loss, tragedy, and are pursuant upon a noble or tragic purpose with perhaps questionable means. They almost always make hard choices and walk on both paths of light and darkness.

In other words, an anti-hero is a protagonist that lives by the guidance of their own moral compass, striving to define and construe their own values as opposed to those recognized by the society in which they live. Additionally, the work may depict how their character alters over time, either leading to punishment, un-heroic success, or redemption.

No argument here. I'd like to point out, however, that because an anti-hero is guided by his own moral compass, he is just as likely to come off as selfish, unempathic and antisocial. Anti-heroes can be admirable, and often are, but they don't have to be.

On the other hand, this also greatly hints and foreshadows that Sasuke will not be another Gaara, Neji, or Sai clone, only following Naruto's path (basically a pure "light" path).

I disagree. As I have pointed out before, Sasuke pretty much has to come around to Naruto's point of view, since that's what the entire story is about when you get right down to it.

Ghost

11-25-2007, 11:02 PM

Sasuke's a poor judge of justice as he's thrown away his current life in memory of the past. It's not as if anyone in his village would have stopped him from killing his brother in time. Sasuke was just jealous of Naruto's power and was scared he was falling behind.

I'd rather say he wasn't satisfied with his own growth. He was the equal of the guy notorious for his lack of talent and who failed to graduate from the Ninja Academy multiple times. And even if his growth was to be as exceptional as, say, Kakashi, it would still takes years and would still not be a gaurantee that he'd succeed in killing Itachi.

Basically, he was dissatisfied with his "current life," so one can't say throwing it away wasn't jusitfied from his point of view.

The emotional emphasize was that what Sasuke was doing was wrong, and the rookies had to save him because they were of the same village.

I think th emotional emphasize was that "Sasuke doesn't know what he's getting himself into and we need to stop him and talk some sense into him."

Of course, turns out Sasuke knew exactly what he was getting himself into. It's a question of values. Specifically: Naruto's values vs Sasuke's values.

Danzou (who is using Sai) is running his own agenda for the village in defiance of the legitmate authority of the village leaders, just like Sasuke. They have no right, legally or morally, to do what they do. That's why they've resorted to underhanded methods to accomplish their goals. That's what makes them villains.

I don't think I'd go as far as calling them villains, and Sasuke in particular, since they have yet to resort to actual villainy, but they are definitely antagonists.

What Sasuke did was perhaps wrong from a legal standpoint, but his intent was never to harm his village. It takes more then that to make him a villain.

The thing the dimension dump has to do with the debate is that it is only usable through the Sharingan, thus making it an ability of the sharingan.

That branches specifically into the "WTF the Sharingan = Hax" debate, which incorporates Sasuke.

Could be that Kakashi's own abilities has mutated his Sharingan, what with not being an Uchiha. (From what I know of Kekkei Genkai, that's not all the improbable.)

Or, Obito was just a freak that way. :p

The Immortal Watch Dog

11-27-2007, 12:12 AM

snipped because frankly thats to long to qoute

and alot of it is non sense

one, thing i want to point out to you maikofan is that the entire time you have gone off into this basically loud mouthed rant about how biased and ingorent posters are acting because they dislike Sasuke

that you concluded he is too strong and thus earns ire from the forum, you've then procceeded to take comments and stuff in your essay completely out of context with the situation at hand and what was going on to use it as evidence of why Sasuke should be like

Thats called warping and thats against the rules it's also a potentially bannable offense

i dont have a problem with debating rationally why people dslike or like a character

but so far you have not been Rational from the very first post you have made insulting comments

while glorifying Sasuke

you;ve basically flaimebaited while being incredably rude which is another infraction of the Rules

that a moderator has not actually come in here and given you a warning is pretty amazing.

especially since you;ve done your best to basically mock and offend the posters who disagree with you.

Bye the way this is not a lecture i am not trying to lecture you i am just pointing out what your doing wrong

so you can avoid it and you and me can disagree alot more on rumbles-and you can be a productive member here

now that being said i am usually the one to get vulgar and blunt when dicussing certain characters that suffer from author over hyping

i wont do that here..you;ve articulated well and i'll argue as professionally as i would..have back in the day

alright lets start with a character evalutation

Naruto: he was made fun of treated basically like garbage as if he where a walking weapon of mass destruction-no one even gave him a notie save to basically mock derisevly and toss aside

he endured this nasty prejudice for years..until eruka came along and even then he had very few defining and postive forces in his life certainly not enough to keep him on the right track..

not only that but every one sees him as an idiot with no talent at all so worse still he is basically mocked and hated

now he had two choices, he have become withdrawn and hateful dedicating his entire life to destroying that which caused him so much pain just like Sasuke

he could have melded all of his effort into basically gaining strength to bring konoha down one day.

much like sasuke decided to do so with itachi

now did he give into the anger and angst?

no he choose to better himself to do everything within his power to enhance his lifestyle

to show these poeple that hated and despised him that he was worth their admiration and respect

he fought risked his life and nearly died on numerious ocasion and once actually did only to be saved by Tsunade

for the sake of this end..

he has time and time again..proven that no matter how bad things..get he will never ever..become like Orochimaru or Itachi

ever

he's had the easy way out thrusted upon him time and time again..he's had the chance to take it

he never has.

and even to this day he's going out of his way to save the guy who totally messed him over..because of his beliefs

he's the embodyment of effort and will power.

now..i'll look at sasuke

Sasuke uchiha was born with enormious talent and a stable eviorment for the majority of his childhood-two things naruto was not.

he had been shown threw example of his family how to live, how the easy way out isent always best.

he saw the value of hard work and the like..and he saw his aloof brother grow more and more withdrawn until finally he murdered the entire clan

Sasuke becomes Truamatised he is alone he has no one..

now he;s going threw a fraction of what naruto's going threw

now at this point in time he could have chosen two things he could tough it up put his head high in the air..and endure the greif and angst..weather it and give evertything he has to the city and to gaining strength

not to avenge his family but to make sure the Uchiha legacy was not one of a crazy uchha whiping them out and then betraying konoha

to make sure to care for those members of his team because their the only family he has

he could have chosen never to become itachi never to live that life

never to take the easy way out.

what did he do?

he went down the exact path itachi wanted him too he became vengeful spiteful hateful

betreyed his best freinds..no his surrogate family..and went with one of the most violent and brutal people on earth (orochimaru)

and did anything he could to gain power

then not only does he totally take the easy path and do exactly what his brother wanted

but he becomes a petty murderer and goes back on everything he believes and forms a team to hunt his brother down

in the name of revenge..he sold out his surrogate family..and home town

he sold out his..own views...

and will likely..use his new team like pawns..and call them useless bonds

again selling himself out

all this in the name of revenge

when he could have done the right thing..which would have been the exact oposite

so yeah-you wonder why people hate Sasuke?

just look at what he;s done

he's not an indapdenent strong force

he;s a tool-a pathetic little puppet..who became EXACTLY what his brother wanted

as oposed to ya know.doing the right thing

thats basically it in a nut shell

the character went form being a depressed anti hero

to a predictable little sociopathic tool who is so consumed by revenge he's basically just..hallow..nothingess

as oposed to..the main character who;s an example of the underdog overcoming great odds...despite being able to choose to be like sasuke

never doing so

and yet you sitll dont understand why we dislike him?

master of read

11-27-2007, 01:42 AM

one, thing i want to point out to you maikofan is that the entire time you have gone off into this basically loud mouthed rant about how biased and ingorent posters are acting because they dislike Sasuke

that you concluded he is too strong and thus earns ire from the forum, you've then procceeded to take comments and stuff in your essay completely out of context with the situation at hand and what was going on to use it as evidence of why Sasuke should be like

Thats called warping and thats against the rules it's also a potentially bannable offense

i dont have a problem with debating rationally why people dslike or like a character

but so far you have not been Rational from the very first post you have made insulting comments

while glorifying Sasuke

you;ve basically flaimebaited while being incredably rude which is another infraction of the Rules

that a moderator has not actually come in here and given you a warning is pretty amazing.

especially since you;ve done your best to basically mock and offend the posters who disagree with you.

Bye the way this is not a lecture i am not trying to lecture you i am just pointing out what your doing wrong

so you can avoid it and you and me can disagree alot more on rumbles-and you can be a productive member here

now that being said i am usually the one to get vulgar and blunt when dicussing certain characters that suffer from author over hyping

i wont do that here..you;ve articulated well and i'll argue as professionally as i would..have back in the day

alright lets start with a character evalutation

Naruto: he was made fun of treated basically like garbage as if he where a walking weapon of mass destruction-no one even gave him a notie save to basically mock derisevly and toss aside

he endured this nasty prejudice for years..until eruka came along and even then he had very few defining and postive forces in his life certainly not enough to keep him on the right track..

not only that but every one sees him as an idiot with no talent at all so worse still he is basically mocked and hated

now he had two choices, he have become withdrawn and hateful dedicating his entire life to destroying that which caused him so much pain just like Sasuke

he could have melded all of his effort into basically gaining strength to bring konoha down one day.

much like sasuke decided to do so with itachi

now did he give into the anger and angst?

no he choose to better himself to do everything within his power to enhance his lifestyle

to show these poeple that hated and despised him that he was worth their admiration and respect

he fought risked his life and nearly died on numerious ocasion and once actually did only to be saved by Tsunade

for the sake of this end..

he has time and time again..proven that no matter how bad things..get he will never ever..become like Orochimaru or Itachi

ever

he's had the easy way out thrusted upon him time and time again..he's had the chance to take it

he never has.

and even to this day he's going out of his way to save the guy who totally messed him over..because of his beliefs

he's the embodyment of effort and will power.

now..i'll look at sasuke

Sasuke uchiha was born with enormious talent and a stable eviorment for the majority of his childhood-two things naruto was not.

he had been shown threw example of his family how to live, how the easy way out isent always best.

he saw the value of hard work and the like..and he saw his aloof brother grow more and more withdrawn until finally he murdered the entire clan

Sasuke becomes Truamatised he is alone he has no one..

now he;s going threw a fraction of what naruto's going threw

now at this point in time he could have chosen two things he could tough it up put his head high in the air..and endure the greif and angst..weather it and give evertything he has to the city and to gaining strength

not to avenge his family but to make sure the Uchiha legacy was not one of a crazy uchha whiping them out and then betraying konoha

to make sure to care for those members of his team because their the only family he has

he could have chosen never to become itachi never to live that life

never to take the easy way out.

what did he do?

he went down the exact path itachi wanted him too he became vengeful spiteful hateful

betreyed his best freinds..no his surrogate family..and went with one of the most violent and brutal people on earth (orochimaru)

and did anything he could to gain power

then not only does he totally take the easy path and do exactly what his brother wanted

but he becomes a petty murderer and goes back on everything he believes and forms a team to hunt his brother down

in the name of revenge..he sold out his surrogate family..and home town

he sold out his..own views...

and will likely..use his new team like pawns..and call them useless bonds

again selling himself out

all this in the name of revenge

when he could have done the right thing..which would have been the exact oposite

so yeah-you wonder why people hate Sasuke?

just look at what he;s done

he's not an indapdenent strong force

he;s a tool-a pathetic little puppet..who became EXACTLY what his brother wanted

as oposed to ya know.doing the right thing

thats basically it in a nut shell

the character went form being a depressed anti hero

to a predictable little sociopathic tool who is so consumed by revenge he's basically just..hallow..nothingess

as oposed to..the main character who;s an example of the underdog overcoming great odds...despite being able to choose to be like sasuke

never doing so

and yet you sitll dont understand why we dislike him?

agreed.

naruto wants sasuke back, not because betrayed his village but because he is family.

you see, naruto never had a family growing up, so everyone of his friends are like a stand in family for naruto, with sasuke being his brother.

but seriously, maikofan, based on your conduct, you should've never made this thread.

Ghost

11-27-2007, 05:57 AM

Sasuke uchiha was born with enormious talent and a stable eviorment for the majority of his childhood-two things naruto was not.

he had been shown threw example of his family how to live, how the easy way out isent always best.

he saw the value of hard work and the like..and he saw his aloof brother grow more and more withdrawn until finally he murdered the entire clan

Sasuke becomes Truamatised he is alone he has no one..

now he;s going threw a fraction of what naruto's going threw

I dunno. Maikofan made one decent point; you can't really compare Naruto's suffering to Sasuke's suffering. There's a big differance between growing up alone surrounded by hate and growing up with a family only to have it murdered.

I'm not saying either is worse then the other, I'm just saying that they're fundamentally different and should affect a young person differently.

Plus, the Uchiha didn't strike me as the kind of people to take their kids aside and tell them that revenge is bad and that they should try to turn the other cheek instead. In fact, if they were anything like the Hyuuga -and context suggest they were probably worse- Sasuke likely grew up being told how awesome his clan was and how important it was to remain loyal to it.

In short, you can't really blame Sasuke for not turning out as Naruto. Especially since Naruto turning out the way he did was a bloody miracle in itself.

he went down the exact path itachi wanted him too he became vengeful spiteful hateful

betreyed his best freinds..no his surrogate family..and went with one of the most violent and brutal people on earth (orochimaru)

and did anything he could to gain power

[...]

all this in the name of revenge

when he could have done the right thing..which would have been the exact oposite

The problem is, if you look at it from Sasuke's point of view, growing stronger and avenging his clan is "the right thing." He's made that clear several times. He can't be expected to make decitions that go against his own values and the entire purpouse of his being.

Again, it's unfair to compare him to Naruto because Naruto is exceptional. It's also unfair to say he should have chosen "right" when chosing "wrong" is the entire point of his character.

You can like him or dislike him, but Sasuke Uchiha is what he is and can't be anything else.

superbatman86

11-27-2007, 01:31 PM

one, thing i want to point out to you maikofan is that the entire time you have gone off into this basically loud mouthed rant about how biased and ingorent posters are acting because they dislike Sasuke

that you concluded he is too strong and thus earns ire from the forum, you've then procceeded to take comments and stuff in your essay completely out of context with the situation at hand and what was going on to use it as evidence of why Sasuke should be like

Thats called warping and thats against the rules it's also a potentially bannable offense

i dont have a problem with debating rationally why people dslike or like a character

but so far you have not been Rational from the very first post you have made insulting comments

while glorifying Sasuke

you;ve basically flaimebaited while being incredably rude which is another infraction of the Rules

that a moderator has not actually come in here and given you a warning is pretty amazing.

especially since you;ve done your best to basically mock and offend the posters who disagree with you.

Bye the way this is not a lecture i am not trying to lecture you i am just pointing out what your doing wrong

so you can avoid it and you and me can disagree alot more on rumbles-and you can be a productive member here

now that being said i am usually the one to get vulgar and blunt when dicussing certain characters that suffer from author over hyping

i wont do that here..you;ve articulated well and i'll argue as professionally as i would..have back in the day

alright lets start with a character evalutation

Naruto: he was made fun of treated basically like garbage as if he where a walking weapon of mass destruction-no one even gave him a notie save to basically mock derisevly and toss aside

he endured this nasty prejudice for years..until eruka came along and even then he had very few defining and postive forces in his life certainly not enough to keep him on the right track..

not only that but every one sees him as an idiot with no talent at all so worse still he is basically mocked and hated

now he had two choices, he have become withdrawn and hateful dedicating his entire life to destroying that which caused him so much pain just like Sasuke

he could have melded all of his effort into basically gaining strength to bring konoha down one day.

much like sasuke decided to do so with itachi

now did he give into the anger and angst?

no he choose to better himself to do everything within his power to enhance his lifestyle

to show these poeple that hated and despised him that he was worth their admiration and respect

he fought risked his life and nearly died on numerious ocasion and once actually did only to be saved by Tsunade

for the sake of this end..

he has time and time again..proven that no matter how bad things..get he will never ever..become like Orochimaru or Itachi

ever

he's had the easy way out thrusted upon him time and time again..he's had the chance to take it

he never has.

and even to this day he's going out of his way to save the guy who totally messed him over..because of his beliefs

he's the embodyment of effort and will power.

now..i'll look at sasuke

Sasuke uchiha was born with enormious talent and a stable eviorment for the majority of his childhood-two things naruto was not.

he had been shown threw example of his family how to live, how the easy way out isent always best.

he saw the value of hard work and the like..and he saw his aloof brother grow more and more withdrawn until finally he murdered the entire clan

Sasuke becomes Truamatised he is alone he has no one..

now he;s going threw a fraction of what naruto's going threw

now at this point in time he could have chosen two things he could tough it up put his head high in the air..and endure the greif and angst..weather it and give evertything he has to the city and to gaining strength

not to avenge his family but to make sure the Uchiha legacy was not one of a crazy uchha whiping them out and then betraying konoha

to make sure to care for those members of his team because their the only family he has

he could have chosen never to become itachi never to live that life

never to take the easy way out.

what did he do?

he went down the exact path itachi wanted him too he became vengeful spiteful hateful

betreyed his best freinds..no his surrogate family..and went with one of the most violent and brutal people on earth (orochimaru)

and did anything he could to gain power

then not only does he totally take the easy path and do exactly what his brother wanted

but he becomes a petty murderer and goes back on everything he believes and forms a team to hunt his brother down

in the name of revenge..he sold out his surrogate family..and home town

he sold out his..own views...

and will likely..use his new team like pawns..and call them useless bonds

again selling himself out

all this in the name of revenge

when he could have done the right thing..which would have been the exact oposite

so yeah-you wonder why people hate Sasuke?

just look at what he;s done

he's not an indapdenent strong force

he;s a tool-a pathetic little puppet..who became EXACTLY what his brother wanted

as oposed to ya know.doing the right thing

thats basically it in a nut shell

the character went form being a depressed anti hero

to a predictable little sociopathic tool who is so consumed by revenge he's basically just..hallow..nothingess

as oposed to..the main character who;s an example of the underdog overcoming great odds...despite being able to choose to be like sasuke

never doing so

and yet you sitll dont understand why we dislike him?When did Maikofan isult anyone?Your first mistake is that Naruto never had as bad as Sasuke.The 3rd was always looking out for him and Iruka is probably the best(nicest)character in the entire show for anyone to have.Sasuke witnessed his entire family's murder over and over again.Can you honestly tell me not having any friends your own age is worse than having everyone you know and love killed?

He wanted revenge anyone would.He was content to stay in Kohana and get stronger their way to do it.Then his brother comes walks through everyone including his teacher who is one of the only people he respects and brutalized and then mind raped AGAIN.Can you blame Sasuke for questioning Kohona's method when Itachi blatantly proved that they weren't good enough?And then Naruto who is completely retarded and has no talent AND doesn't work as hard is able to match him.The village idiot,the talentless loser is some how able to improve MORE than the biggest guiness in the village.This through up a massive red flag.I mean Kakashi is great and all but Naruto got Sannin training.

And then Kakashi flat out says that Kohana won't help Sasuke get revenge.They were trying to stop him from achieving his dream.If Kohana said that there was no way for Naruto to ever become Hokage he would leave and start his own village Oro style.The only way he could get the help needed to improve enough to beat Itachi was to leave.And guess what he was right.Him leaving was proven right the second he came back so strong that the best Kohana had weren't on his level anymore.

The most important thing to realize is that if he actually gave up his revenge he would be betraying himself.His need for revenge has shaped his entire life and it would be unrealistic for him to give it up.He hates Itachi more than he ever cared about Naruto and co.

Dark Soul # 7

11-27-2007, 01:50 PM

When did Maikofan isult anyone?Your first mistake is that Naruto never had as bad as Sasuke.The 3rd was always looking out for him and Iruka is probably the best(nicest)character in the entire show for anyone to have.Sasuke witnessed his entire family's murder over and over again.Can you honestly tell me not having any friends your own age is worse than having everyone you know and love killed?At least once he called Ghost ignorant for no real reason.

And Naruto didn't just lack friends. It was more a case of the majority of the village outright despising him. Imagine that you're back in high school and you're the lonely geek that everybody teases when they think you can't hear them. Some teachers try to help you but most of them don't give a frick about your life, except your grades. Now switch the high school for an entire town, the lonely geek for a twelve year old orphan and the people teasing him no longer cares if he can hear them or not. That's pretty damn bad.

Like other people have said one can't really compare Naruto's and Sasuke's suffering and you can't really say that either one had it worse than the other. I mean, Sasuke at least had the admiration of an entire village.

The Immortal Watch Dog

11-27-2007, 02:24 PM

I dunno. Maikofan made one decent point; you can't really compare Naruto's suffering to Sasuke's suffering. There's a big differance between growing up alone surrounded by hate and growing up with a family only to have it murdered.

your totallyand complety right one suffered a monumentiously tragic event..just once

the other was basically treated the same way the nazi's treated the jews in the first years of hitlers reing..before they stuck in camps

soyeah basically singled them out and make their life a constant hell

I'm not saying either is worse then the other, I'm just saying that they're fundamentally different and should affect a young person differently

but both had two options..becoming angry petty jerks..or doing something right

Plus, the Uchiha didn't strike me as the kind of people to take their kids aside and tell them that revenge is bad and that they should try to turn the other cheek instead. In fact, if they were anything like the Hyuuga -and context suggest they were probably worse- Sasuke likely grew up being told how awesome his clan was and how important it was to remain loyal to it.

maybe contecxt sugjests it but flash backs show something different a loving family

In short, you can't really blame Sasuke for not turning out as Naruto. Especially since Naruto turning out the way he did was a bloody miracle in itself.

no, i can't but i can say he had two paths infront of him

he choose the easy petty one
and the readers have a right to say well he sucks because of that

if they feel it does according to each's own opinion

The problem is, if you look at it from Sasuke's point of view, growing stronger and avenging his clan is "the right thing." He's made that clear several times. He can't be expected to make decitions that go against his own values and the entire purpouse of his being.

so from now on when dr doom kidnaps reeds family and tortures him emotionally..or when tony stark compelty and totally seels out and betreys his best freinds

or when reed treats his wife and child like shit?

or when superboy prime or sentry goes on one of their emo tirades..of murder and misery

i should look at it form their perspective?

i am sorry..but no

Again, it's unfair to compare him to Naruto because Naruto is exceptional. It's also unfair to say he should have chosen "right" when chosing "wrong" is the entire point of his character.

how is it unfair..you have the guy who..embodies pretty much everything most people find amirable

vs a guy who..well most people look at and see a jerk

one of thems the hero..the others..nearly killed his fornmer best freind while ranting about how lame he has it

You can like him or dislike him, but Sasuke Uchiha is what he is and can't be anything else.

ofcorse but that does not give him a free pass..to do what ever he wants

and we basically have to go oh poor sasuke lets put ourselves in his sad little shoes

The Immortal Watch Dog

11-27-2007, 03:27 PM

When did Maikofan isult anyone?.

he called gohst ingorent and called atleast sveral other poster liars and hypocrats

and also made some FU type slights at the forum for daring to dislike sasuke

Chrosis

11-27-2007, 03:45 PM

he called gohst ingorent and called atleast sveral other poster liars and hypocrats

and also made some FU type slights at the forum for daring to dislike sasuke

The only reason I could take being called "Ignorant" as an insult was if I actually did know what I was talking about. I don't know the exact instance that Ghost was called ignorant, so I can't say.

*Shrugs*

But I completely agree with you on everything else.

Ghost

11-27-2007, 03:49 PM

your totallyand complety right one suffered a monumentiously tragic event..just once

the other was basically treated the same way the nazi's treated the jews in the first years of hitlers reing..before they stuck in camps

soyeah basically singled them out and make their life a constant hell

I get the vague feeling you didn't really get the point of what I was trying to explain. :rolleyes:

but both had two options..becoming angry petty jerks..or doing something right

It's not that simple and you know it.

I repeat: Sasuke is not Naruto and it's utterly ridiculous to expect something like that of him. He's only human, for crying out loud.

maybe contecxt sugjests it but flash backs show something different a loving family

A family can be perfectly loving and still adher to classic feudal Japanese ideals concerning clan loyalty, honor and revenge.

no, i can't but i can say he had two paths infront of him

he choose the easy petty one
and the readers have a right to say well he sucks because of that

if they feel it does according to each's own opinion

And if he had chosen the other path, what would that have helped him? Would that have made him as strong as he wanted to be? Would that have brought him that much closer to his goal of killing Itachi?

I don't think Sasuke ever concidered it much of a choice, let alone such a simple choice as: "Doing this, which is right, or doing this, which is wrong."

It's easy for us to say he ought to have chosen differently, but I think it would have been very, very strange if he did.

so from now on when dr doom kidnaps reeds family and tortures him emotionally..or when tony stark compelty and totally seels out and betreys his best freinds

or when reed treats his wife and child like shit?

or when superboy prime or sentry goes on one of their emo tirades..of murder and misery

i should look at it form their perspective?

Um, yeah?

Of course you should. That's the key to understanding the character! You judge his or her's action compared to his or her's motivations and personality.

You absolutely don't hate them on a personal level for doing stuff differently from whatever you consider to be "right." I wouldn't be able to enjoy any villain or anti-hero if I reasoned that way.

Sasuke's choices checks out with his motivation and personality. I really don't see what everyone is so upset about.

i am sorry..but no

All I'm saying is that hating Sasuke because of the choices he's made is just as silly as hating Anakin Skywalker for turning into Darth Vader. Did he make bad choices? Sure. But it is his role in the story and he had his reasons and motivations.

how is it unfair..you have the guy who..embodies pretty much everything most people find amirable

vs a guy who..well most people look at and see a jerk

one of thems the hero..the others..nearly killed his fornmer best freind while ranting about how lame he has it

It's unfair because Sasuke needs to do what he does because otherwise the story wouldn't work. Or, at least, it wouldn't have anywhere near the depth that it does.

It's also unfair becuase you are demanding Sasuke to be a character he definitely isn't; you are criticizing his choices even though they were entirely in character.

ofcorse but that does not give him a free pass..to do what ever he wants

and we basically have to go oh poor sasuke lets put ourselves in his sad little shoes

And there you go, missing the point again. You don't have to sympethise with the guy. You don't have to agree with him, or share his pain or his ideals or anything like that.

But the fact of the matter is, Sasuke is an extremely well-put together character who plays his part well and serves his purpose in the story perfectly.

I just think would be nice if people would recognise that, rather then hating him for his actions for some insane reason.

Maikofan

11-27-2007, 11:16 PM

Somehow, I don't think Naruto is the focus, Sasuke is and both of them are the main characters, It's not about empowering Naruto, it's about getting some self establishment for Naruto and his rival Sasuke, these current show to me that Sasuke is not longer a shonen generic rival, he affects the stroy far to much.

Actually, Sasuke never overpowers Naruto. Quite the contrary, Sasuke is what empowers Naruto. Without Sasuke, Naruto would be much, much less because Sasuke is the very person who spurs him to become stronger and keep fighting. Sasuke is important as the driving force of the main character, and thus the story, though I doubt he'd make much of a main character himself.This is where I disagree with you, Naruto has managed to oversome tremendous odds than Sasuke has, and has done what Sasuke couldn't have done in his foot steps, I believe Sasuke has his own way and own means of importance that doesn't simply empower the main character, his progree in part 2 has been somewhat self characterized and complex because he's not on a linear build up like the others, Part 2 makes him more a main character than Naruto. He has his own story, his own flaws and concepts, his own idividuality, and a main part in the story that makes or breaks the manga. He's more than a rival, espically when he took out one of the core villans. Naruto doesn't have to beat Sasuke in order to be the real deal, Naruto first ambition and core purpose is to become Hokage. Besides, Naruto and Sasuke have a very vague rivalry and relationship, instead of fighting each other and insulting one another, that don't interact and converse their quirks and flaws like most Shonen Rivals do.

Problem: Unlike Naruto's Kyuubi it comes without significant drawbacks. The only negative aspect of the Sharingan is the loss of eyesight associated with the Mangekyo Sharingan, which Sasuke so far hasn't developed.Neither has Itachi or any other Uchiha, thats just baseless speculation.

Problem: Itachi is Sasuke's driving force the same way Sasuke is Naruto's. However, note that Sasuke's relationship with his brother is entirely aggressive on Sasuke's side; Sasuke hunts Itatchi, not the other way around. So far Itatchi has show very little actual interest in Sasuke, which makes him limited as a main villain.Wrong in one chapter when Itachi heard the news about Sasuke supposedly dying, he felt a sense of guilt and sorrow, plus he told Sasuke he wanted him to fight him one day in Part One. Madara is reveled as the primary villain because of his roots to shodai. Sasuke has two sub stories to overcome.

Note that this is not fact: there is too much diversity among the fighters of Naruto's world to say any single character can only ever be defeated by any other single character.Itachi has defeated people of above caliber shinobi in a matter of seconds plus stated in the data book as unbeatable.

Three, actually, but who's counting?

Also, the big problem with Sasuke's love interest is that they are heads over heel for him. He doesn't really have to struggle to win them over; in fact, he just needs to pick one. In order for his love life to be interesting at all, he'd have to represent the challenge, much like he already does. And that'd really piss off the male fanbase. (Because nothing is more aggravating then a guy who disdainfully turns down multiple beautiful and likable women who adore him.)Actually you just stated Sasuke is a more vague and complex character than I stated him out to be, the fact of the matter is, he's got bigger fish to fry and his priorities are more credible than getting pussy. Sasuke has the least human development out of all the characters, he's a vague foil to Naruto's and a well written one.

Yeah, but you skip over a lot of information. Non of these points illustrate Naruto's strenghts as a character or any of Sasuke's shortcomings. You can't say two characters are of equal strenght as potential main characters based only on the things they have in common.What I'm trying to illustrate is some times, Sasuke doesn't impact Naruto's main flaws as much as his lack of improving his worth to everybody. Plus I believe their equal in power and in development, Kishimoto is a very complex man.

I disagree. Quite the contrary: its the interaction between the two of them, and the relationship between them, that really brings out the best -or worst- in them.

All good stories have a relationship between two or more people at its core, and is then built around the tensions within this relationship. That's the power of Naruto and Sasuke; one cannot be said to be a stronger character then the other because both give the other strenght.Sasuke:Fight me Naruto

Naruto:Kay.

Some development.

Sasuke always paves something for Naruto to accomplish and the reason he seems to be overpraised is because of the credit he gets after Naruto shows his stuff which pales in comparison to Naruto's.

Besides none of what you said in that post makes any sense at all, it's not about both of them helping each other out, it's all about both of these guys inconsistancy.

Not at all. Sasuke's entire history in the story has so far been geared towards empowering Naruto.Not really, otherwise Naruto would have won in the vote fight, and Orochimaru would still be alive.

I disagree. As I have pointed out before, Sasuke pretty much has to come around to Naruto's point of view, since that's what the entire story is about when you get right down to it.I believe you should re read what I said about Sasuke being more than just a rival for the main character to surpass. This story may be centered around Naruto, but Sasuke is one character thar can make his own story and expand it to something much more original.

Guy1

11-27-2007, 11:25 PM

I get the vague feeling you didn't really get the point of what I was trying to explain. :rolleyes:

It's not that simple and you know it.

I repeat: Sasuke is not Naruto and it's utterly ridiculous to expect something like that of him. He's only human, for crying out loud.

A family can be perfectly loving and still adher to classic feudal Japanese ideals concerning clan loyalty, honor and revenge.

And if he had chosen the other path, what would that have helped him? Would that have made him as strong as he wanted to be? Would that have brought him that much closer to his goal of killing Itachi?

I don't think Sasuke ever concidered it much of a choice, let alone such a simple choice as: "Doing this, which is right, or doing this, which is wrong."

It's easy for us to say he ought to have chosen differently, but I think it would have been very, very strange if he did.

Um, yeah?

Of course you should. That's the key to understanding the character! You judge his or her's action compared to his or her's motivations and personality.

You absolutely don't hate them on a personal level for doing stuff differently from whatever you consider to be "right." I wouldn't be able to enjoy any villain or anti-hero if I reasoned that way.

Sasuke's choices checks out with his motivation and personality. I really don't see what everyone is so upset about.

All I'm saying is that hating Sasuke because of the choices he's made is just as silly as hating Anakin Skywalker for turning into Darth Vader. Did he make bad choices? Sure. But it is his role in the story and he had his reasons and motivations.

It's unfair because Sasuke needs to do what he does because otherwise the story wouldn't work. Or, at least, it wouldn't have anywhere near the depth that it does.

It's also unfair becuase you are demanding Sasuke to be a character he definitely isn't; you are criticizing his choices even though they were entirely in character.

And there you go, missing the point again. You don't have to sympethise with the guy. You don't have to agree with him, or share his pain or his ideals or anything like that.

But the fact of the matter is, Sasuke is an extremely well-put together character who plays his part well and serves his purpose in the story perfectly.

I just think would be nice if people would recognise that, rather then hating him for his actions for some insane reason.

http://sparou.deviantart.com/art/Sasuke-Lookin-Badass-16259143
That help at all?

Maikofan

11-27-2007, 11:50 PM

http://sparou.deviantart.com/art/Sasuke-Lookin-Badass-16259143
That help at all?Wow, still living in the past huh?

Guy1

11-27-2007, 11:54 PM

Wow, still living in the past huh?

Hey, I thought the pic looked cool is all.

Maikofan

11-28-2007, 12:00 AM

Hey, I thought the pic looked cool is all.I always wondered why Sauske need to wear shorts.

Ghost

11-28-2007, 03:41 AM

Somehow, I don't think Naruto is the focus, Sasuke is and both of them are the main characters, It's not about empowering Naruto, it's about getting some self establishment for Naruto and his rival Sasuke, these current show to me that Sasuke is not longer a shonen generic rival, he affects the stroy far to much.

You're somewhat right, but Sasuke's role is ultimately different from Naruto's.

The main character in any story is the character who leads the readers or audience into the story, and who's actions drives the other characters to action. Only by being associated to this character can the other characters become part of the story at all.

Now, Naruto is undoubtely the main character because everyone associates to him, including Sasuke. However, after a certain point, Sasuke starts to affect Naruto (and several others, actually) the same way, especially when he becomes an antagonist. So then we end up with Sasuke being the penultimate main character. (Penultimate, because the protagonist take priority over the antagonist.)

This is where I disagree with you, Naruto has managed to oversome tremendous odds than Sasuke has, and has done what Sasuke couldn't have done in his foot steps, I believe Sasuke has his own way and own means of importance that doesn't simply empower the main character, his progree in part 2 has been somewhat self characterized and complex because he's not on a linear build up like the others, Part 2 makes him more a main character than Naruto. He has his own story, his own flaws and concepts, his own idividuality, and a main part in the story that makes or breaks the manga. He's more than a rival, espically when he took out one of the core villans.

Ah, but that's the beauty of it! While Sasuke can be said to have his own story within the story, that story is a part of Naruto's story since it still affects his decitions and actions, which in turn moves the over-all plot.

Naruto doesn't have to beat Sasuke in order to be the real deal, Naruto first ambition and core purpose is to become Hokage. Besides, Naruto and Sasuke have a very vague rivalry and relationship, instead of fighting each other and insulting one another, that don't interact and converse their quirks and flaws like most Shonen Rivals do.

Actually, Naruto does have to beat Sasuke. You see, the story isn't about Naruto becoming Hokage, or Sasuke defeating Itachi, or even stopping the Akatsuki or anything like that. That's just stuff used to build a story around the main theme: the friendship and conflict between Naruto and Sasuke and their ideals. They are the tradgic brothers, the best friends forced to do battle, the yin and yang.

Without Sasuke, Naruto's story becomes nothing more then another tale about an outcast who struggles for recognition. Without Naruto, Sasuke's story becomes nothing more then another tale of a young man devoured by vengence. It's the combination of the two that makes the story more then the sum of it's parts.

Neither has Itachi or any other Uchiha, thats just baseless speculation.

Thank you for proving my point. *tips hat*

Wrong in one chapter when Itachi heard the news about Sasuke supposedly dying, he felt a sense of guilt and sorrow, plus he told Sasuke he wanted him to fight him one day in Part One. Madara is reveled as the primary villain because of his roots to shodai. Sasuke has two sub stories to overcome.

Regardless, what I meant was simply that Itachi doesn't actually do much; he mostly just hangs out with Akatsuki while waiting for Sasuke to catch up with him. Prime Main Villain material he is not.

Itachi has defeated people of above caliber shinobi in a matter of seconds plus stated in the data book as unbeatable.

Riiight. Good thing for Sasuke that last bit probably isn't true. ;)

I'm not saying the guy isn't incredibly dangerous, just that one can't say for sure that Sasuke is the only one with the potencial to beat him.

Actually you just stated Sasuke is a more vague and complex character than I stated him out to be, the fact of the matter is, he's got bigger fish to fry and his priorities are more credible than getting pussy. Sasuke has the least human development out of all the characters, he's a vague foil to Naruto's and a well written one.

That still doesn't change the fact that he isn't really designed to be a main character in his own right.

What I'm trying to illustrate is some times, Sasuke doesn't impact Naruto's main flaws as much as his lack of improving his worth to everybody. Plus I believe their equal in power and in development, Kishimoto is a very complex man.

I agree with that, but just because the two characters are ultimately equals, it doesn't automatically mean one can assume the other one's role.

Sasuke:Fight me Naruto

Naruto:Kay.

Some development.

Please, you need to read between the lines just a little bit. It isn't all battles and techniques, you know.

Sasuke always paves something for Naruto to accomplish and the reason he seems to be overpraised is because of the credit he gets after Naruto shows his stuff which pales in comparison to Naruto's.

Besides none of what you said in that post makes any sense at all, it's not about both of them helping each other out, it's all about both of these guys inconsistancy.

What I mean is, Naruto doesn't actually benefit from Sasuke being incapacitated or abscent. The more they interact, the better for both of them.

Not really, otherwise Naruto would have won in the vote fight, and Orochimaru would still be alive.

Are you kidding? Beating Sasuke back at the end of the first part would only have made Naruto weaker.

You need to look at this from a larger perspective. It's not about who wins in this or that fight, or who happens to be stronger at the time: it's about who drives the other to greater achivements, deeper character development and dramatic impact. That is the meaning of empowering a character.

I believe you should re read what I said about Sasuke being more than just a rival for the main character to surpass. This story may be centered around Naruto, but Sasuke is one character thar can make his own story and expand it to something much more original.

Like I said, I consider Sasuke to be much more then just a rival; he is a counterpart. But in the end he has his part to play and Naruto has his. There's nothing wrong with this; especially since Sasuke gives so much more to the story in the role he has then he would as a main character in his own series.

Ghost

11-28-2007, 04:00 AM

http://sparou.deviantart.com/art/Sasuke-Lookin-Badass-16259143
That help at all?
Wow, still living in the past huh?
Hey, I thought the pic looked cool is all.
I always wondered why Sauske need to wear shorts.

http://kiyami.deviantart.com/art/Sasuke-30850332
http://melllorine.deviantart.com/art/Sasuke-52352288
http://sasorisama.deviantart.com/art/Post-time-skip-Sasuke-33336118
http://vashperado.deviantart.com/art/Naruto-Sasuke-Rivals-35613472

Those any better? ;)

nervmeister

11-28-2007, 08:27 AM

Sasuke's a baby-killer with herpes and needs to die! :mad:

The Immortal Watch Dog

11-28-2007, 11:42 AM

I get the vague feeling you didn't really get the point of what I was trying to explain. :rolleyes:

not that i don't get it i don't agree with it

It's not that simple and you know it.

I repeat: Sasuke is not Naruto and it's utterly ridiculous to expect something like that of him. He's only human, for crying out loud.

no but he has naruto and kakashi..and their examples to live by

A family can be perfectly loving and still adher to classic feudal Japanese ideals concerning clan loyalty, honor and revenge.

the pont i thought you where teying to make is that they where as big a dick as the hyugas and thusly treated sasuke like ass

And if he had chosen the other path, what would that have helped him?

take a good look at jiraiyas..sarutobi and the fourtyh..the two wherent just called kages..they where called god kages

he lived in a village known for haivng plenty of examples of people becoming ludcriously strong living those type of values

tyeps of people itachi runs from

conversly he also saw orocihmaru;s way who while storng ran from itiachi was forced to live as a parasite

Would that have made him as strong as he wanted to be? Would that have brought him that much closer to his goal of killing Itachi?

again his example was founded by and was full of..people who yes..are living examples of how they can sitll be enormiously bad ass

hell look at the shit naruto did..orignally sasuke had an inefiorty complex

I don't think Sasuke ever concidered it much of a choice, let alone such a simple choice as: "Doing this, which is right, or doing this, which is wrong."

weather he did or didnt rerlly isent relvent

he had the choice..and living examples of that choice

It's easy for us to say he ought to have chosen differently, but I think it would have been very, very strange if he did.

Um, yeah?

so i should try to be understanding of an emo little boy who murders..entire universes?

i should try to understand why he is doing what he does..even though its monstriously..against everything i believe it?

Of course you should. That's the key to understanding the character! You judge his or her's action compared to his or her's motivations and personality.

Sasuke's a villian..and no absolutely he is not an anti hero..noi jusdt no look at every other major example of anti hero he isent

villians are villians their jerks..and bastards

and while you can respect some and think their awesome

it dosent change the fact that their..bastards

and what they;re doing is completly and totally wrong-

You absolutely don't hate them on a personal level for doing stuff differently from whatever you consider to be "right." I wouldn't be able to enjoy any villain or anti-hero if I reasoned that way.

a writer tells a story knowing full well..he created characters..some will hate..some will love

he creats good guys and bad guys

why the hell..should we have to try and like the villian?

Sasuke's choices checks out with his motivation and personality. I really don't see what everyone is so upset about.

your absolutely right..and its his personality thats awful...because A he cant even see whats infornt of him

b despite alot of evidence to the contrary that no..that life is probably not the one you should lead he does it any ways

his motivcations and personality..as well as him being dick stroked by the author

are at the very core of why people hate

i personally..sont care about him bieng over pwoered..it sucks from a story telling POV

but then i would have to hate all shouen animes..since they have characters like that

no i dislike him immensly

because he is..a petty..aloof emotionally fractured..little prick

All I'm saying is that hating Sasuke because of the choices he's made is just as silly as hating Anakin Skywalker for turning into Darth Vader. Did he make bad choices? Sure. But it is his role in the story and he had his reasons and motivations.

if i was a writer..and i wrote characters like this..and i actullay did for school..i dont think i would be bothered at all if some totally hated sasuke

i would be kind of glad they did..because he sort of repsrensts everything your not suposed to do in life

i also htink tis amazing that you who have in alot of threads stated your dislike of death penalty and being a pacigist (i think it was you)

would be so sympathetic to a person willing to murder en masse..for petty revenge

It's unfair because Sasuke needs to do what he does because otherwise the story wouldn't work. Or, at least, it wouldn't have anywhere near the depth that it does.

so then the character was created..for a role..and the author probvably knew full well alot of people would despite him

It's also unfair becuase you are demanding Sasuke to be a character he definitely isn't; you are criticizing his choices even though they were entirely in character.

nop i am not demanding he be a character he isnt

i am saying dont sit there..and expect me..to like him at all

when he;s done some horrible pettyy things

And there you go, missing the point again. You don't have to sympethise with the guy. You don't have to agree with him, or share his pain or his ideals or anything like that.

so..then..whats the point of reading anything?

But the fact of the matter is, Sasuke is an extremely well-put together character who plays his part well and serves his purpose in the story perfectly.

until kishimott started with the author wank would have agreed with you

but even so that still dosent chnage he is a revolting character

as you can see by the sheer amount of posters who detest him

I just think would be nice if people would recognise that, rather then hating him for his actions for some insane reason.

and maybe its because of that people hate him?

The Immortal Watch Dog

11-28-2007, 11:43 AM

Sasuke's a baby-killer with herpes and needs to die! :mad:

..i think i am in love lol

Totoro Man

11-28-2007, 09:04 PM

Sasuke's a baby-killer with herpes and needs to die! :mad:

now, c'mon y'all. you can do better than that. Sasuke should get killed. and then somebody should rape him and use his blood for lubricant. ;)

(figured a South Park reference couldn't hurt)

HectorP

11-29-2007, 09:05 PM

I tend to side with Ghost's view, if only because it doesn't make a fuss about Sasuke's morality and choices and instead analyzes the importance of them within the story. Dude ain't perfect.

I mean, there's a character I hated with my guts when I read the story which was a serial killer, a rapist, a patricide, a mind-rapist, had a bigger ego than Light Yagami, was above the law and institutions, etc. and unlike Sasuke, it seems he was just evil since youth. But Naruto is a popular series, so popularity brings more controversy.

nervmeister

11-30-2007, 08:14 AM

now, c'mon y'all. you can do better than that. Sasuke should get killed. and then somebody should rape him and use his blood for lubricant. ;)

(figured a South Park reference couldn't hurt)NO!! I want him alive when he gets blood-lubed and raped! :evilsmile

..i think i am in love lolI love you too, baby.

Maikofan

11-30-2007, 02:57 PM

Sasuke and his brother owns you haters.

It's awesome hoe he's not freaking out in his brother like he did in the past.

The Immortal Watch Dog

11-30-2007, 11:50 PM

Sasuke and his brother owns you haters.

mybe..you dont understand..how this makes you

you call several posters ignorent..and stupid etc etc and hypocrats..for disliking sasuke and being rude about it

yet you..yourself act this way

it can get you banned

Maikofan

12-01-2007, 05:38 AM

master of read

12-01-2007, 05:42 AM

Sasuke and his brother owns you haters.

It's awesome hoe he's not freaking out in his brother like he did in the past.

lame. very lame.

The Immortal Watch Dog

12-01-2007, 08:37 AM

I'm being funny, I'm don't even care if you guys want Sasuke dead.

funny how your history on this thread speaks the exact oposite

i am not trying to be a dick mind you

i giving you a genuine warning..the mods are really insistant on manners when debating

and frankly i dont blaim them *looks threw this thread*

Deskad

12-01-2007, 09:35 AM

I guess I'll chip into the conversation a bit...

Personally, I don't buy the whole clan honor, pride and vengeance cultural excuse for Sasuke being a well balanced character from a different culture.

Simply beacuse I actually come from a place where clan loyalty, a crazy obsession with revenge and honor are STILL the way things are, and will be for the foreseeable future, and even by those standards, Sasuke, well, he just comes off as stupid.

Maikofan

12-01-2007, 11:18 AM

Bakasama

12-01-2007, 11:45 AM

He's saying he is part of a real life clan and using his personal experience as it applies to his opinion of Sasuke.

The Real Nemo

12-01-2007, 02:55 PM

Meaning what exactly?:confused:

I think we all have a little Sasuke in us, we just hide those traits because he brings out the ugly side to us.
You can say that about a lot of characters, both good and bad. But aren't the ones who represent the positive aspects of our personalities more admirable than those who respresent the negative ones?

Totoro Man

12-01-2007, 03:24 PM

mybe..you dont understand..how this makes you

you call several posters ignorent..and stupid etc etc and hypocrats..for disliking sasuke and being rude about it

yet you..yourself act this way

it can get you banned

actually, Maikofan's general level of antagonism and blatant trolling on this thread he/she already has one foot in the grave. it can't take too much longer at this rate. :rolleyes:

maybe Maikofan will figure it out... or not! ;)

Len Ikari145

12-02-2007, 03:16 PM

You can say that about a lot of characters, both good and bad. But aren't the ones who represent the positive aspects of our personalities more admirable than those who respresent the negative ones?

Quoted for Truth. One of the reasons why I like Naruto is because he embodies my personal ideals and values.

Dark Soul # 7

12-02-2007, 03:30 PM

I'm being funny, I'm don't even care if you guys want Sasuke dead.You're not being funny at all and every time anyone says the slightest negative thing about Sasuke you almost react like they've offended you personally.

tipo4thesoul

12-02-2007, 03:36 PM

why isn't this thread dead.

Maikofan

12-03-2007, 08:42 AM

You can say that about a lot of characters, both good and bad. But aren't the ones who represent the positive aspects of our personalities more admirable than those who respresent the negative ones?It depends who you are, people hold other characters with negative aspects and positive aspects which draws us in to make us feel for that said character.

Dark Soul # 7

12-03-2007, 08:56 AM

It depends who you are, people hold other characters with negative aspects and positive aspects which draws us in to make us feel for that said character.Right, and we get that you really like Sasuke. Other people on this board don't care for him or outright dislike him. But that's the way the world works.

I like Gaara, my friend likes Lee, another one likes Jiraiya, some like Zabusa and others like Chouji. We like them more than other characters and that's perfectly fine.

We don't have to jump down each others throats the instant someone else says something bad about our favorite character, and we don't have to say that the manga is boring just because our favorite character isn't in the new chapter.

Chrosis

12-03-2007, 02:43 PM

Sasuke and his brother owns you haters.

It's awesome hoe he's not freaking out in his brother like he did in the past.

Yep.

He's badass because he can avoid pissing himself when he looks at his brother.

Yet somehow, Naruto, Sakura, Kakashi, Temari, Asuma, Kurenai, Gai, and all of the other Akatsuki were able to do it on their first try.

And remember how he nearly started crying when Kakashi and Zabuza were only getting ready to fight? I laughed.

Miburohunter929

12-03-2007, 03:42 PM

Len Ikari145

12-03-2007, 03:58 PM

To be fair Chrosis, Naruto did panic alittle the first time he met Kisame/Itachi.

But to be fair, If I opened the door after taking a shit or whatever, and some dude who's claim to fame is being a mass murdering genius, and his blood thirtsy lord slaying friend were trying to kidnap my ass...

I'd be a bit surprised also. Espeically once they no-sold my skills.

Of course, Naruto on his most paniced days, dosnt add up to What Sasuke did around Zabuza/Orochimaru.

It was so bad needed Kakshi/Naruto to snap him out of it both times (Although I thought naruto was being a tard at the time)

If Naruto did something like that, I cant remember.

Not that I hold it against Uchiha, I just love hating on stuff.

Yeah, Naruto panicked when he first met Zabuza.

Sasuke was ready to put a kunai to his throat just from being in his presence. (according his internal monologuing)

When Naruto met Orochimaru, he didn't flinch.

While Sasuke was almost pissing himself from the killing intent that Oro was projecting.

I think the only times Naruto's genuinely freaked was when he had a chance to talk to Gaara in Lee's room (and it seemed like Naruto was more terrified by the fact that Gaara was basically like himself and represented what he could've become) and when he was put under a genjutsu in Timeskip.

Devil_LeonX

12-04-2007, 11:00 PM

you know guys Im sure there are just as many Naruto haters as there are Sasuke , what we should all try and respect each others likes and dislikes though I get that some people like to piss others off so a bit of defense is called for.And a qucik question when sasuke was fighting the clay dude think his name was Deidera, did he chidori himself sometime in the fight?

Alex L

12-05-2007, 07:02 PM

Chrosis

12-05-2007, 07:47 PM

Yes.

Sasuke had hundreds of little, powder-sized mini-clay bombs in his bloodstream, so he electrocuted himself in order to deaden them all.

Even though that's not how the chidori works!!!!

Devil_LeonX

12-07-2007, 07:50 PM

alright thanks guys

Megaman XXX

12-24-2007, 10:22 PM

Sasuke may not be emotionally complex...and this is what most of the division between the "haters" and the "fans" come in...the haters refer to his emotional complexity to say he's "one dimensional", and the fans refer to his mental complexity (specifically referring to his ability to enact a plan two and a half years in the making) to essentially shit all over the haters' expectations of what would befall Sasuke to keep on moving and progressing to this very minute...and say he's complex. It's the fact that, even beyond Itachi (Divinstrosity excluded), he's the most forum-volatile character; someone said it best: people can read the same pages and come away with completely polarized view points.

I can relate to his lack of perfection; he ain't perfect, far from spotless, but his pragmatism in his goal and desire keep him focused, and I can appreciate the dedication to avenge a horrible event in his life.

To quote Chappelle's Show, "he keeps it real". He has no qualms referring to his unlocked hereditary traits being > than the greatest genius, making them look mediocre in comparison, but can still know his limits. He knew he was the relative runt of the Uchiha (compared to Itachi and Shisui) when Oro approached him with the Cursed Seal, but he took that misfortune and turned it into an advantage. Took what Kakashi taught him and took it further than Kakashi ever dreamed of...

...blew away a (considerable) Jinchuuriki's power (when not comparing raw chakra amount) by surpassing it to the point where the people around who witnessed it felt it was "unnatural". All while pissing in every Uchiha hater's eyes; everytime they think he'd lose (against Oro, against Deidara, against Naruto at the VotE), his character just shits all over those expectations.

I guess it's more a choice between the lesser of two proverbial evils. Sasuke or Naruto. I don't particularly care about Naruto (not in the sense that I hate Naruto's character, but that I feel nothing one way or the other) in the sense that I have little to no interest in a character who's only goal in life is to be recognized. I just don't have it in me to get excited over anything he does. *shrug*

To sum it up, I like his character because he's flawed, but his goal at least has a point; he won't let anyone, not even someone who'll maintain an unrequited bond with him, stand in his way of accomplishing it.

Devil_LeonX

12-26-2007, 02:26 AM

Nik Hasta

12-26-2007, 04:25 AM

Sasuke may not be emotionally complex...and this is what most of the division between the "haters" and the "fans" come in...the haters refer to his emotional complexity to say he's "one dimensional", and the fans refer to his mental complexity (specifically referring to his ability to enact a plan two and a half years in the making) to essentially shit all over the haters' expectations of what would befall Sasuke to keep on moving and progressing to this very minute...and say he's complex.

So in short, you find Sasuke betraying Konoha, betraying Orochimaru, attempting to kill his friends again and getting exponentially stronger despite that flying in the face of everything the series Naruto has stood for up until now clever?

I find it irritating that Kishimoto is messing around with his themes. I don't mind him using Sasuke to make a point or illustrate a theme but he isn't. All he seems to be doing is powering up Sasuke and completely trampling all over his previous 'hard work makes you strong,' message that I personally really liked.

I can relate to his lack of perfection; he ain't perfect, far from spotless, but his pragmatism in his goal and desire keep him focused, and I can appreciate the dedication to avenge a horrible event in his life.

I can appreciate that too but I fail to see why he has to be a jerk to people who could help him with his goal and try to kill his friends.

I prefer people being stronger through their love and friendship, Sasuke's lone wolf approach just leaves me thinking he's annoying.

To quote Chappelle's Show, "he keeps it real". He has no qualms referring to his unlocked hereditary traits being > than the greatest genius, making them look mediocre in comparison,

So he's egotistical. Great character trait.

but can still know his limits. He knew he was the relative runt of the Uchiha (compared to Itachi and Shisui)

But still an absolute genius compared to everyone else in Konoha except for perhaps Neji.

when Oro approached him with the Cursed Seal, but he took that misfortune and turned it into an advantage.

He didn't do anything of the sort. The Sound Four approached him and finished the sealing process giving him powers beyond anything he'd ever had before.

Took what Kakashi taught him and took it further than Kakashi ever dreamed of...

Not as such, he was working with one of the finest jutsu-creating minds in the Naruto world for a good two years. The Chidori sword was the only thing that he created for himself.

I guess it's more a choice between the lesser of two proverbial evils. Sasuke or Naruto. I don't particularly care about Naruto (not in the sense that I hate Naruto's character, but that I feel nothing one way or the other) in the sense that I have little to no interest in a character who's only goal in life is to be recognized. I just don't have it in me to get excited over anything he does. *shrug*

Take that argument and apply it to Sasuke and you have my view.

To sum it up, I like his character because he's flawed, but his goal at least has a point; he won't let anyone, not even someone who'll maintain an unrequited bond with him, stand in his way of accomplishing it.

Your view, you can have it.

Meanwhile I still find Sasuke dull.

Guy1

12-27-2007, 12:35 PM

You know, we can say whatever we want about Sasuke, but this image is truth.
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/3320/sasukesharinganpsabysraey2.th.png (http://img145.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sasukesharinganpsabysraey2.png)

Kevin M.

12-29-2007, 09:47 AM

I'm so glad I stopped following Naruto after the Konoha invasion arc.

Devil_LeonX

12-30-2007, 02:09 AM

I'm so glad I stopped following Naruto after the Konoha invasion arc.

Why, do you think where the storie has been going is bad??

Devil_LeonX

12-30-2007, 02:10 AM

I'm so glad I stopped following Naruto after the Konoha invasion arc.

Why, do you think where the storie has been going is bad??

Alex L

12-30-2007, 07:17 AM

Why, do you think where the storie has been going is bad??

He doesn't know. He stopped reading it, remember? ;)

To me, Naruto's high point was the Wave country arc.
The Chuunin exam was good in that it really helped establish the Naruto-verse, and the world building is excellent (the potential for fanfic is endless) but in terms of story, it never was quite the same.

The series took a serious nosedive during/right after the Chase for Sasuke/Sound Four arc.

Kevin M.

12-30-2007, 03:45 PM

Why, do you think where the storie has been going is bad??

From what I gather from what I have read on the net, and from my friends, it is not fun to read anymore. It i like the story is just lagging, and lagging with each passing chapter.

Devil_LeonX

12-31-2007, 03:44 AM

From what I gather from what I have read on the net, and from my friends, it is not fun to read anymore. It i like the story is just lagging, and lagging with each passing chapter.

well you cant expect them to Finish the entire storie in a few chapters now can we, though I admit that here and there it does get a bit tedious for the msot part you have miised some good things , a few fights and some Deaths sadly.

Devil_LeonX

12-31-2007, 03:44 AM

Devil_LeonX

12-31-2007, 03:45 AM

Devil_LeonX

12-31-2007, 03:46 AM

Devil_LeonX

12-31-2007, 03:48 AM

Devil_LeonX

12-31-2007, 03:48 AM

Megaman XXX

01-01-2008, 09:50 PM

So in short, you find Sasuke betraying Konoha, betraying Orochimaru, attempting to kill his friends again and getting exponentially stronger despite that flying in the face of everything the series Naruto has stood for up until now clever?Well it ain't simple or easy. Plus, Sasuke is a man of principle. His actions are justified by the means.

I find it irritating that Kishimoto is messing around with his themes. I don't mind him using Sasuke to make a point or illustrate a theme but he isn't. All he seems to be doing is powering up Sasuke and completely trampling all over his previous 'hard work makes you strong,' message that I personally really liked.Sasuke's character is a theme of redeemtion and revenge. How is that not a theme? And the Hard Work Theme=Bullshit after Naruto used the Kyuubi chakra agaisnt the akatsuki. Again.

I can appreciate that too but I fail to see why he has to be a jerk to people who could help him with his goal and try to kill his friends.Sasuke has flaws and Social Inhabitions that he seems to procreate with his character, and I totally understand him. No one needs to be perfect and fake all the time.

I prefer people being stronger through their love and friendship, Sasuke's lone wolf approach just leaves me thinking he's annoying.Ironically I find love and friendship annoying and lone wolf attemps articulate.

So he's egotistical. Great character trait.So is Naruto and damn near every character in the manga. He's also smart and deceptive.

But still an absolute genius compared to everyone else in Konoha except for perhaps Neji.Neji=Shit, sorry but he doesn't match up to true geniusus like Sasuke and Shika.

He didn't do anything of the sort. The Sound Four approached him and finished the sealing process giving him powers beyond anything he'd ever had before.Well he left the village by force and was at a point of confusion so it's not particulary his fault.

Not as such, he was working with one of the finest jutsu-creating minds in the Naruto world for a good two years. The Chidori sword was the only thing that he created for himself.I think your arguements are just as subjective and vague as Sasuke's own innovations with the chidori.

Take that argument and apply it to Sasuke and you have my view.No I already did.

Your view, you can have it.

Meanwhile I still find Sasuke dull.And your entitled to your opinion, but the manga wouldn't be twice as popular and exciting without himOh and Sasuke > Itachi.

Dark Soul # 7

01-02-2008, 05:21 AM

From what I gather from what I have read on the net, and from my friends, it is not fun to read anymore. It i like the story is just lagging, and lagging with each passing chapter.It's a more aquired taste that other shounen manga of it's kind. But it's still good for most of the story.

Personally I think it's gotten really interesting with all the recent revaltions. Thgh, less Uchiha focus would be appreciated.

Dark Soul # 7

01-02-2008, 05:38 AM

Well it ain't simple or easy. Plus, Sasuke is a man of principle. His actions are justified by the means.His means so far have been to betray anyone whose trained or helped him as soon as he doesn't see any use for them anymore. Nice principle.
Sasuke's character is a theme of redeemtion and revenge. How is that not a theme?Redemption has nothing to do with Sasuke. Revenge is his only thing, and if he does get his revenge his next thing will be to breed forth a new generation of Uchiha's. NO redemption there either.And the Hard Work Theme=Bullshit after Naruto used the Kyuubi chakra agaisnt the akatsuki. Again.ctually in his last fight against the Akatsuki Naruto used his own power and wit to finish of Kakuzu with a technique he created through hard work. No Kyuubi involved at all. Likewise he hasn't even begun to use the kyuubi against Tobi/Madara.

Sasuke on the other hand needed to use both his sharingan and crused seal to defeat Deidara.So is Naruto and damn near every character in the manga. He's also smart and deceptive.How is Naruto egotistical? He's willing to sacrifice his life for a person he see's as his friend, despite the fact that that person seems to have made it a hobby to stab Naruto whenever they see each other.
Neji=Shit, sorry but he doesn't match up to true geniusus like Sasuke and Shika.Since we haven't gotten to see Neji really do anything yet we don't know that. But from what I've heard he's the third strongest jounin in te village, after Kakashi and Gai.

And he was theonly one who managed to escape from Kisame's water prison.
Well he left the village by force and was at a point of confusion so it's not particulary his fault.No, he left by his own choice. There was no confusion of anything like that when he went with the Sound Four. Just a descision to get more power by joining Orochimaru.Oh and Sasuke > Itachi.We won't know that until their fight is over.

Nik Hasta

01-02-2008, 06:38 AM

Well it ain't simple or easy. Plus, Sasuke is a man of principle. His actions are justified by the means.

Don't you mean his means are justified by his aims?

His actions and his means are the same thing.

His actions have been basically to be an asshole to just about everyone, even those reaching out to him. As Dark Soul said; nice principles.

Sasuke's character is a theme of redeemtion and revenge.

It's nothing to do with redemption. If anything it's Sasuke soiling himself further and going deeper into darkness on his quest for revenge.

And the Hard Work Theme=Bullshit after Naruto used the Kyuubi chakra agaisnt the akatsuki. Again.

Naruto hasn't used the Kyuubi chakra in a fight against Akatsuki.

Do try not to distort canon too much.

Sasuke has flaws and Social Inhabitions that he seems to procreate with his character, and I totally understand him. No one needs to be perfect and fake all the time.

So you're saying everything that Sasuke said about Naruto being his best friend and that he truely felt a connection with him was a lie? Sasuke was being "fake," then and now he's being truthful about his feelings by trying to kill him?

I don't want him to be perfect, no one in Naruto is, but I'd prefer it if Sasuke wasn't a emotionless, boring "lone wolf," archetype.

I just don't care about him.

Ironically I find love and friendship annoying and lone wolf attemps articulate.

You must not like much shonen manga then.

Honestly, I don't want to insult you here but there's no real nice way to say this; if you find love and friendship annoying you must live a sad and lonely life.

So is Naruto and damn near every character in the manga.

Not really.

I don't think Shikamaru has ever mouthed off about how smart he is, I don't recall Rock Lee ever rubbing it anyone's face that he's amazingly good at Taijutsu, I must have missed Gaara screaming his own praises to the rooftops and obviously the scene were Kakashi announces that he is the greatest ninja in the history of the world was edited out of the final version of Naruto.

Naruto is pretty humble, he's competative and has big dreams but he doesn't rub in people's faces that he has colossal chakra reserves that make everyone else look like nothing.

Sasuke is egotistical, see the scene where he spent about five pages ranting to Orochimaru about how wonderful he and the Uchiha's were.

He's also smart and deceptive.

I won't question that is quite smart. Deceptiveness is not something I personally admire though.

Neji=Shit, sorry but he doesn't match up to true geniusus like Sasuke and Shika.

Neji is a genius, he's one of the finest ninjas of his generation. If you're so blinded by your obsessive character love that you can't see that, then arguing with you is somewhat redundant.

Well he left the village by force and was at a point of confusion so it's not particulary his fault.

No he did not. Again you're distorting canon.

The Sound Four approched him with their offer, after Kakashi had spoken to Sasuke about being supportive to his friends. Sasuke considered it and then decided of his own free will to leave. He even ignored Sakura's attempts to stop him and knocked her out, such was his resolve.

Yeah he was totally force into doing it. :rolleyes:

I think your arguements are just as subjective and vague as Sasuke's own innovations with the chidori.

...

Not even sure what you mean by that.

No I already did.

Err... good?

And your entitled to your opinion, but the manga wouldn't be twice as popular and exciting without him

So where does you coming in and trying to force everyone to love Sasuke come into me being entitled to my opinion?

Farealmer

01-02-2008, 01:17 PM

I will say flat out that i don't know much about Sasuke, i am only at the end of the save Sasuke arc in the anime and i've not personally seen the worst crimes people accuse him of(Wankagan/defeating Orichimaru/etc.).

That said however i dislike Sasuke, simply because of the fanbase he seems to attract. Now while Ghost has been reasonable and balanced in his defense of Sasuke. Others(Maikofan and Megaman xxx in particular) have been rude and condesending to others that show dislike of Sasuke.

Which i think could be considered another and perhaps more important reason people hate him. Because he attracts such rude fans. Now i know every character has that, but anti-heroes in particular call out to those that like to get in people faces at the drop of a hat. Which just make it worse for the character in question. If anything this thread shows this in action. I wouldn't be surprised if someone who knew nothing of Naruto ended up hating Sasuke just from reading this thread.

Something to think about.

Xero Kaiser

01-02-2008, 01:36 PM

I find it irritating that Kishimoto is messing around with his themes. I don't mind him using Sasuke to make a point or illustrate a theme but he isn't. All he seems to be doing is powering up Sasuke and completely trampling all over his previous 'hard work makes you strong,' message that I personally really liked.

It was a pretty crappy message, if it ever existed at all. Haku, Naruto, The Uchihas, Neji, Kimimaro, Gaara...most of the really powerful characters in the series are strong because of gifts they were born with. Even a guy like Shikamaru isn't smart because he studies all the time, he was just born that way. Meanwhile the only one who really has to bust his ass (Rock) gets served everytime he walks out the door.

Nik Hasta

01-02-2008, 02:21 PM

It was a pretty crappy message, if it ever existed at all. Haku, Naruto, The Uchihas, Neji, Kimimaro, Gaara...most of the really powerful characters in the series are strong because of gifts they were born with. Even a guy like Shikamaru isn't smart because he studies all the time, he was just born that way. Meanwhile the only one who really has to bust his ass (Rock) gets served everytime he walks out the door.

I liked the way though that Naruto, who while he does have the plot device Kyuubi, does work hard and isn't a natural at being a shinobi managed to defeat Neji and Gaara without using the kyuubi much at all.

It's the closest thing to a message Naruto has though I think.

Xero Kaiser

01-02-2008, 02:44 PM

Gaara yes, but using the Nine-tails after his own chakra had been sealed is the only reason he took down Neji.

Athena Bast

01-02-2008, 04:47 PM

Nik Hasta

01-02-2008, 05:52 PM

Gaara yes, but using the Nine-tails after his own chakra had been sealed is the only reason he took down Neji.

Shit.

Dammit Kishimoto settle on a theme!

Kevin M.

01-02-2008, 06:40 PM

It's a more aquired taste that other shounen manga of it's kind. But it's still good for most of the story.

Personally I think it's gotten really interesting with all the recent revaltions. Thgh, less Uchiha focus would be appreciated.

Maybe I will pick it up again some time in the near future.

Deek

01-03-2008, 08:59 PM

Since we haven't gotten to see Neji really do anything yet we don't know that. But from what I've heard he's the third strongest jounin in te village, after Kakashi and Gai.

And he was theonly one who managed to escape from Kisame's water prison.

I don’t know where on earth you heard that from because it’s clearly not true. His jounin uncle Hiashi is obviously stronger than him. Asuma was a lot stronger. I would also add Kurenai and Shizune. The original Ino-Shika-Cho are stronger than him. Tokubetsu jounin like Anko, Ibiki, Gemna, and Aoba are no pushovers either. And while not technically classed as a jounin, Yamato would wipe the floor with Neji. Never mind Danzou and many of the ANBU. Konoha is filled with strong jounin.

Neji really didn’t show much against Kisame. Without Gai opening six gates, they would have been killed by a 30% Kisame clone. So I don’t know why people still compare Sasuke with Neji. Sasuke is clearly the greater genius and is WAY above someone like Neji. Naruto is also above Neji. Neji has lost almost all of his importance since the beginning of Part 2.

In the last arc, Kishimoto was really hyping Shikamaru. He even mentioned him as a Hokage candidate. At 15, he definitely has done enough to become a jounin and he would make it probably even younger than Neji did. So Neji might soon be behind Shikamaru in the Konoha pecking order.

But there is a huge gap between Sasuke, Naruto, and the rest of the former Konoha genin. Not surprisingly since they are the main characters after all.

Guy1

01-03-2008, 10:05 PM

darksaint124

01-04-2008, 02:54 AM

So after reading the entire thread I think everyone has forgotten 1 important fact.

This is a world of SHINOBI.
I really don't understand where everyone gets this romanticized idea that ninja are supposed to have some kind of Bushido moral system, but saying things like "Sasuke is bad because he's only out to kill his brother," when certain missions that villages give out are assasinations, really make no sense.

If there were 100 people in a room, and all of those people lost their entire family, from mother to 4th cousin, and then you had to relive that experience repeatedly, probably causing some kind of severe emotional damage. How many of those people would be out for revenge. And as I said "It's a shinobi world." So basically your learning how to kill people. And when you do get comfortable with your nakama, the person that slaughtered your family shows up, brushes your skills aside like they were nothing, and then procedes to beat the crap out of you, while your powerless to stop them. Are you really going to tell me that your going to be content to just go back to your village, get stronger at a snail's pace(other than the 4th, Itachi was probably the strongest ninja Konogakure produced) and play around with your friend's on little weak missions. Or are you going to try to get power at any means.
I mean everybody seems to forget if Sasuke would have stuck around even Sakura would have been stronger than him.

Sannin-Team 7
Orochimaru-Sasuke
Jiraiya-Naruto
Tsunade-Sakura
Who would have trained him? Kakashi? who already got pwned by Itachi in like a split second.

Your moral standards are too high when ninja are supposed to kill their emotions. Look at post-time skip Naruto, all the control he learned and they forgot about the most important SELF CONTROL.
By the logic everyone has set, wouldn't Naruto flipping out several times and trying to destroy eveything in his path make him evil, or is he exempt because he's the protagonist.
And to date since Sasuke left who has he killed???
Hasn't he freed all the slaves that Orochimaru had?
Are these not redeemable qualities, when Konogakure would have done nothing about them???
It's sad 'cause I actually like the entire Team 7 equally(except for Sai, but he doesn't count)
But Sasuke got stronger and has done valiant deeds, while all Naruto has done is lose his temper and learn a bettr rasengan.

And why couldn't Jiraiya teach Naruto how to gain experience from his Kage Bunshin?????????????
Or teach him any actual techniques?????????????
And this is the village you wanted Sasuke to stay in??? For shame.

Dark Soul # 7

01-04-2008, 06:12 AM

I don’t know where on earth you heard that from because it’s clearly not true. His jounin uncle Hiashi is obviously stronger than him. Asuma was a lot stronger. I would also add Kurenai and Shizune. The original Ino-Shika-Cho are stronger than him. Tokubetsu jounin like Anko, Ibiki, Gemna, and Aoba are no pushovers either. And while not technically classed as a jounin, Yamato would wipe the floor with Neji. Never mind Danzou and many of the ANBU. Konoha is filled with strong jounin.Like hell Anko, Kurenai, Sizune, Ibiki, Genma and Aoba are stronger than Neji. Even in part 1 he showed as much, or more, power and skill as/than any of them. I'd even argue that in part 2 he's stronger than Asuma was when he was alive.
Against all three of the Ino-Shika-Chou he doesn't stand a chance but I'm pretty sure that he could take them one on one.

But I do agree that Yamato is stronger than Neji and probably Hiashi as well. Like I said I just heard it so I have no idea how strong Neji actually is. But you are seriously underestimating him.
Neji really didn’t show much against Kisame. Without Gai opening six gates, they would have been killed by a 30% Kisame clone. So I don’t know why people still compare Sasuke with Neji. Sasuke is clearly the greater genius and is WAY above someone like Neji. Naruto is also above Neji. Neji has lost almost all of his importance since the beginning of Part 2.Yes he's not as important to the plot as he used to be. But that does not make him weak. And unlike Sasuke and Naruto Neji doesn't have any uber-power-ups to rely on when he's a pinch. He uses skills and skill alone to win his fights. Sasuke and Naruto would be dead without the cursed seal and demon fox respectively.
In the last arc, Kishimoto was really hyping Shikamaru. He even mentioned him as a Hokage candidate. At 15, he definitely has done enough to become a jounin and he would make it probably even younger than Neji did. So Neji might soon be behind Shikamaru in the Konoha pecking order.Yet he's not a jounin. And as far as we know Neji might've become a jounin when he was 15. Until anything drastic happens I'm gooing to view Neji as above Shikamaru.
But there is a huge gap between Sasuke, Naruto, and the rest of the former Konoha genin. Not surprisingly since they are the main characters after all.Yes there is, but again they both have super-transformations and other advantages that the others don't have access to.

The Fuzzes

02-15-2008, 11:36 AM

Man why are people so prejudice towards Sasuke?

Half of these opinions are baised and misinterpeded.

Sasuke's not a bad character, it's just that it's so easy and predicible to hate him because he's the most flawed and neutral character in the manga, all of his actions are neither good or evil. Just neutral.

When Sasuke became the number one most hated character on these boards, I thought to myself...........Why is he still popular.

All I can say the thread title is spot on. What makes Sasuke controversial. His personality? People view him as a Jerk.....Yet he's shown plenty of times where he cares and scarifices his time to save others like Naruto, Sakura, Kakashi, even people he doesn't know. He's perfect......Yeah and so is Minato butyou don't see any hate towards him........He's emo.......What kind of emo boy kills and avenges his family and still manages to talk the talk and walk the walk?

Sasuke can't simply be summed up as a definate character, and thats probably why i like the character he's an enigma into a enigma. Karmic Justice.

The ends justify the means for this character.

Nik Hasta

02-15-2008, 01:18 PM

Man why are people so prejudice towards Sasuke?

Half of these opinions are baised and misinterpeded.

Or they just have their own opinions... which they are entitled to.

Sasuke's not a bad character, it's just that it's so easy and predicible to hate him because he's the most flawed and neutral character in the manga, all of his actions are neither good or evil. Just neutral.

Which makes for incredibly dull reading material IMO.

When Sasuke became the number one most hated character on these boards, I thought to myself...........Why is he still popular.

All I can say the thread title is spot on. What makes Sasuke controversial. His personality? People view him as a Jerk.....

Which to be honest he is.

Yet he's shown plenty of times where he cares and scarifices his time to save others like Naruto, Sakura, Kakashi, even people he doesn't know.

Post Timeskip? No he hasn't. He's tried to kill Naruto twice Post Timeskip, hasn't met Kakashi and commented that he would kill Sakura.

Can you back up what you're claiming?

He's perfect......Yeah and so is Minato butyou don't see any hate towards him........

That's for several reasons;

One) Minato wasn't perfect, he was a great ninja, supposedly a good father, a likeable person and generally alright as far as people go. This contrasts strongly to Sasuke's using people for his own ends, emotionless demeanour and obsessive nature.

Two) Sasuke has had a disproportionate amount of screentime. More so than the other main characters which annoys people who would prefer to hear about other characters, this causes people to become irrritated by his very presence.

Three) Minato hasn't had any moments where he blatantly does things he should not be able to do. Sasuke had the Deidara fight, which was incredibly stupid.

He's emo.......What kind of emo boy kills and avenges his family and still manages to talk the talk and walk the walk?

Sasuke's not an emo.

Sasuke can't simply be summed up as a definate character, and thats probably why i like the character he's an enigma into a enigma. Karmic Justice.

And you're welcome to that view. Not everyone will agree with you though, accept it.

The ends justify the means for this character.

I rarely agree with that view in real life. Sasuke doesn't make me agree with it here.

darksaint124

02-15-2008, 02:01 PM

Thanks Nik. Even though I disagree with you, your one of the few posters who actually know what emo means.

The Fuzzes

02-15-2008, 02:05 PM

Or they just have their own opinions... which they are entitled to.

Which most of the time isaggering levels of hyporcrisy and prejudice.

Which makes for incredibly dull reading material IMO.

Your not smart enough to understand Sasuke's plot then, you like your characters baby fed to you.

Which to be honest he is.

He's no perfect, he's only being human.

Post Timeskip? No he hasn't. He's tried to kill Naruto twice Post Timeskip, hasn't met Kakashi and commented that he would kill Sakura.

Can you back up what you're claiming?

Sure, ever heard of a bluff. Sasuke is unpredictible. He might have been trying to stop Naruto dead in his tracks not kill him.

That's for several reasons;

One) Minato wasn't perfect, he was a great ninja, supposedly a good father, a likeable person and generally alright as far as people go. This contrasts strongly to Sasuke's using people for his own ends, emotionless demeanour and obsessive nature.

Minato was a gary stu, everyone lovedhim, he taught his own teacher, and he married and conceived a child.

Sasuke how ever has not been the target of praise, he's lost in his own darkness, he still acts distant towards others, people want to kill him and his actions ditate Kakashi's warnings. Sasuke only did what he needed to carry out revenge, noone got hurt and so far he's wariming up to Hebi and even helping Juugo out.

Two) Sasuke has had a disproportionate amount of screentime. More so than the other main characters which annoys people who would prefer to hear about other characters, this causes people to become irrritated by his very presence.

And? Naruto has more screen time than Sasuke and the main focus of other characters. People like you like to judge a bit to harshly. And this causes polarization towards the Sasuke fanbase.

Three) Minato hasn't had any moments where he blatantly does things he should not be able to do. Sasuke had the Deidara fight, which was incredibly stupid.

Hirishin plz?

Sasuke's not an emo.

Glad we agree.

And you're welcome to that view. Not everyone will agree with you though, accept it.

Everyone doesn't agree with me theres something seriously wrong with that.

I rarely agree with that view in real life. Sasuke doesn't make me agree with it here.

No you just like to hate Sasuke because he's easy to hate tis all.

Too troublesome.

master of read

02-15-2008, 02:09 PM

shouldnt you be going since you are obviously the only real naruto fan here and we arent since we dont like the same character you like?

The Fuzzes

02-15-2008, 02:24 PM

I would love sticking around here if the whole Naruto fanbase on this board hated Sasuke.

Nik Hasta

02-15-2008, 02:30 PM

Which most of the time isaggering levels of hyporcrisy and prejudice.

This from the person who claims; if you don't like Sasuke then you aren't a real fan of Naruto?

Let people have their opinions.

Your not smart enough to understand Sasuke's plot then, you like your characters baby fed to you.

Actually I prefer more complex characters. I find Sasuke very simple and very dull.

Also insulting people doesn't help your case at all.

He's no perfect, he's only being human.

A human who is a jerk.

Sure, ever heard of a bluff. Sasuke is unpredictible. He might have been trying to stop Naruto dead in his tracks not kill him.

He stabbed him with a chidori and many characters have commented that there is no way to tell between Naruto and his Kage Bunshin's, he tried to kill him.

You're trying to claim that Sasuke attempting to murder his friends is part of a bluff that may or may not be true? That is why you find him so defensible?

Minato was a gary stu, everyone lovedhim, he taught his own teacher, and he married and conceived a child.

And that is, to an extent, what he is supposed to be. Minato was written from the beginning as the Greatest Shinobi Ever. He fits that character, it's what he was written for.

I don't see why you can complain about a minor character who was written to be near-perfect being near-perfect.

Sasuke how ever has not been the target of praise,

Apart from being called one of the greatest ninja's of his generation, having the respect and admiration of nearly everyone who knew him and being taken on a trained perfectly by Kakashi over Naruto...

No Sasuke didn't get praised much at all.

he's lost in his own darkness, he still acts distant towards others, people want to kill him and his actions ditate Kakashi's warnings. Sasuke only did what he needed to carry out revenge, noone got hurt and so far he's wariming up to Hebi and even helping Juugo out.

Sasuke has explicitly said he's only keeping Team Hebi around because he needs them. He's only keeping Juugo under control because he needs his power.

Nothing more.

And? Naruto has more screen time than Sasuke and the main focus of other characters.

I'm sorry; what is the series called again?

People like you like to judge a bit to harshly. And this causes polarization towards the Sasuke fanbase.

And people like you, not a term I like to use but what the hell, deal only in absolutes and piss off the other members of the fandom.

Hirishin plz?

That's been an established part of his powerset since day one. Sasuke has pulled an awful lot of frankly impossible stuff out recently and it's very irritating for people who like consistancy.

Everyone doesn't agree with me theres something seriously wrong with that.

Everyone doesn't think Sasuke is the greatest thing since sliced bread and having a healthly love of him is integral to being a fan of Naruto?

You do surprise me.

No you just like to hate Sasuke because he's easy to hate tis all.
Too troublesome.

No I genuinely think that way. I don't think the ends can always justify the means. Heck, I rarely think that, Sasuke doesn't even come into it.

master of read

02-15-2008, 02:34 PM

This from the person who claims; if you don't like Sasuke then you aren't a real fan of Naruto?

Let people have their opinions.

Actually I prefer more complex characters. I find Sasuke very simple and very dull.

Also insulting people doesn't help your case at all.

A human who is a jerk.

He stabbed him with a chidori and many characters have commented that there is no way to tell between Naruto and his Kage Bunshin's, he tried to kill him.

You're trying to claim that Sasuke attempting to murder his friends is part of a bluff that may or may not be true? That is why you find him so defensible?

And that is, to an extent, what he is supposed to be. Minato was written from the beginning as the Greatest Shinobi Ever. He fits that character, it's what he was written for.

I don't see why you can complain about a minor character who was written to be near-perfect being near-perfect.

Apart from being called one of the greatest ninja's of his generation, having the respect and admiration of nearly everyone who knew him and being taken on a trained perfectly by Kakashi over Naruto...

No Sasuke didn't get praised much at all.

Sasuke has explicitly said he's only keeping Team Hebi around because he needs them. He's only keeping Juugo under control because he needs his power.

Nothing more.

I'm sorry; what is the series called again?

And people like you, not a term I like to use but what the hell, deal only in absolutes and piss off the other members of the fandom.

That's been an established part of his powerset since day one. Sasuke has pulled an awful lot of frankly impossible stuff out recently and it's very irritating for people who like consistancy.

Everyone doesn't think Sasuke is the greatest thing since sliced bread and having a healthly love of him is integral to being a fan of Naruto?

You do surprise me.

No I genuinely think that way. I don't think the ends can always justify the means. Heck, I rarely think that, Sasuke doesn't even come into it.

amen nik.

also important nit pick: he said that sasuke wasnt perfect and yet in one of his posts, he said sasuke was perfect.

so which is it?

Alex L

02-15-2008, 02:45 PM

He's perfect......Yeah and so is Minato butyou don't see any hate towards him...

The 4th Hokage? How much screen time does that guy get?

In Hikaru no Go, both Sai and Touya were more or less untouchable on the board, but that works because as far as the series is concerned, they don't really play.

The unbeatable character who only shows up once every blue moon works.
The unbeatable main character is boring, because there's no drama.

master of read

02-15-2008, 02:48 PM

The 4th Hokage? How much screen time does that guy get?

In Hikaru no Go, both Sai and Touya were more or less untouchable on the board, but that works because as far as the series is concerned, they don't really play.

The unbeatable character who only shows up once every blue moon works.
The unbeatable main character is boring, because there's no drama.

the only times we really see minato is during kakashi gaiden and during jiraiya's flash back.

darksaint124

02-15-2008, 02:53 PM

I would love sticking around here if the whole Naruto fanbase on this board hated Sasuke.

I like Sasuke. Your just going about this the wrong way.

The Fuzzes

02-15-2008, 02:53 PM

Yet you have shown any scans to prove it Nik.

Sasuke is not simple and dull.

Also, prove your points.

Tis all.

Nik Hasta

02-15-2008, 02:57 PM

Yet you have shown any scans to prove it Nik.

Sasuke is not simple and dull.

Also, prove your points.

Tis all.

Eh?

You can't use scans to prove a subjective term like someone's interpretation of a text. The whole point being that it is subjective and we form our own opinions on it.

I find Sasuke dull and a simple character due to his lack of attachments to the cast except for Itachi.

master of read

02-15-2008, 02:57 PM

dark, i know you like sasuke and only difference is that you dont shove him down our throats, claiming he's the be all and end all of ninja.

you like him. i dont. and i respect you for it.

master of read

02-15-2008, 02:59 PM

Yet you have shown any scans to prove it Nik.

Sasuke is not simple and dull.

Also, prove your points.

Tis all.

so you want him to provide evidence about his personal opinion about sasuke.

............................................

that has to be the dumbest thing i've ever read.............ever.

The Immortal Watch Dog

03-21-2008, 02:53 PM

Man why are people so prejudice towards Sasuke?

when ha she gained nay weakness? lost nay fight

Half of these opinions are baised and misinterpeded.

umm they're thoughts

Sasuke's not a bad character, it's just that it's so easy and predicible to hate him because he's the most flawed and neutral character in the manga, all of his actions are neither good or evil. Just neutral.

betreying your best friends ripping one of theird lunges out...alienaitng everhy one who gave their heart for you..on some slefish revenge quest

murdering and using..betreying..and going outy of your way to train under a violent..petty socioipath

When Sasuke became the number one most hated character on these boards, I thought to myself...........Why is he still popular.

why did goerge bush win the 2004 presidential election?

All I can say the thread title is spot on. What makes Sasuke controversial. His personality? People view him as a Jerk.....Yet he's shown plenty of times where he cares and scarifices his time to save others like Naruto, Sakura, Kakashi, even people he doesn't know. He's perfect......Yeah and so is Minato butyou don't see any hate towards him........He's emo.......What kind of emo boy kills and avenges his family and still manages to talk the talk and walk the walk?

only minato is superman..to sasuke superboy prime

poeople hate prime for trying to be somehting hwe;s not for whining complaining..for basically saiyng "MY LIFE SUCKS IT GIVE ME FREE REING TO DO WHAT EVER I WANT!! NYAAHHH!!:"

sasuke does the exact same thing..he has in post time skip never done anything selfless

he;s far from perfect..you even contradict yourself..claling him flawed..and nuetral

but perfect?

sorry but no..the characters a violent..arrogant..uncaring control freak

he;s a typical personality type for abusive lovers/parents

resentful..vindictive and petty...

Sasuke can't simply be summed up as a definate character, and thats probably why i like the character he's an enigma into a enigma. Karmic Justice.

umm no..guys like naruto and jiraiyaz and the fourht are engimas..they where stigmatised..hated seen as idiots...and mis treated terribly..in narutos case abused...and mistreated...and alienated

and instead of beocming..what sasuke became

they gho out of their way to do seflessly for others..dedicate themselves..completly..to doing the right thing

as oposed to sasuke who..seieng this..way of klife

chooses the weasy cowards way

The ends justify the means for this character.

and some fo the most horrible.e.vil base and malicious forces in ficiton..have thought the same

sasukes now in that group then?