Holy Crap, the old Fleischer Superman Cartoons were Amazing!

[Brad Barton]

Just ran across a few of them while perusing Youtube and was duly impressed. The animation is stellar, in some cases Disney-feature quality or even better, and this without the use of Rotoscoping.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8QCv5cGGyHE - I think this was the first episode, not sure though. It's interesting that the origin is so different. Was this the old, old, oooooold pre-Crisis origin?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8QCv5cGGyHE - Another good one. Man, the animation completely blows todays stuff out of the water.

These are too cool. I can't believe I'm only just now discovering them.

[Rattlehead]

As these cartoons are in the public domain, you can more than likely come across them for really cheap. I found both volumes on DVD for $5 at Best Buy. These cartoons are some of the best I've ever seen, despite the jingoistic nature of some of the villians. The Japanese scientist episode is especially embarrassing in it's racism.

I think this was the first episode, not sure though. It's interesting that the origin is so different. Was this the old, old, oooooold pre-Crisis origin?

Yeah, way pre-Crisis. These cartoons were produced in the 40's.

[Joe Night]

Just ran across a few of them while perusing Youtube and was duly impressed. The animation is stellar, in some cases Disney-feature quality or even better, and this without the use of Rotoscoping.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8QCv5cGGyHE - I think this was the first episode, not sure though. It's interesting that the origin is so different. Was this the old, old, oooooold pre-Crisis origin?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8QCv5cGGyHE - Another good one. Man, the animation completely blows todays stuff out of the water.

These are too cool. I can't believe I'm only just now discovering them.


I'm actually pretty sure that the Fleischer cartoons did use rotoscoping. If I am correct it was Max Fleischer who invented the technique.

[scratchie]

I'm pretty sure the Fleischer Superman cartoons were rotoscoped.

[MaxofSteel]

I'm actually pretty sure that the Fleischer cartoons did use rotoscoping. If I am correct it was Max Fleischer who invented the technique.

I'm pretty sure the Fleischer Superman cartoons were rotoscoped.

They did use rotoscope a lot of the time in other cartoons, and Max did invent it. But the earlier episodes of this series were actually not rotoscoped . The later ones were (after the Fleischers had left the company).

I recently learned some of this stuff in my history of animation course at skoolz. :)

Anyhow, yeah. Fleischer Superman rocked and continues to rock.

[DonC]

I need to go back and watch these again. They were restored for the The Ultimate Superman Collection set. They really are good, even all these years later.

They were also the visual inspiration for the Timm-verse Superman series.

[Brad Barton]

I need to go back and watch these again. They were restored for the The Ultimate Superman Collection set. They really are good, even all these years later.

They were also the visual inspiration for the Timm-verse Superman series.Funny thing is, whilst the stories are definitely more archaic, the animation is way better than Timm's.

I was actually looking on in astonishment at the backgrounds alone, and the animation on top of it is so fluid you would swear it's rotoscoping. (even though, as Max said, it's not)

And this from the same guys who made the Popeye cartoons. Wow.

[dancj]

The animation would be excellent. These cartoons had an unprecedented budget.

[Billage]

The animation in these is amazing.

I saw a whole DVD with all the episodes for only 4 dollars!I'm so pissed I passed on it,damn.

[Joe Night]

The animation in these is amazing.

I saw a whole DVD with all the episodes for only 4 dollars!I'm so pissed I passed on it,damn.

You can usually find them at stores like 99 Cent Store or Dollar Tree or stores like that since for a buck. So many companies put them out you can probably complete a set dirt cheap.

[Grazzt]

My favourite was Billion Dollar Limited (http://youtube.com/watch?v=6rKhtO36KAk), because it had Lois Lane using a tommy gun.

[Brad Barton]

My favourite was Billion Dollar Limited (http://youtube.com/watch?v=6rKhtO36KAk), because it had Lois Lane using a tommy gun.Yeah, I lawled at that one as well.

Anyone else notice that in these 'toons Supes is jumping and not flying? Also, he doesn't seem to be nearly as strong as 50's, 60's and 70's superman would become. In the second epsiode I linked to in the OP, he had to struggle to rip a vault door out of the wall. The Superman of today could've sneezed it off it's hinges.

[ultramandingo]

.......check out the popeye " sinbad " cartoon, makes the stuff disney was doing back then look like the stuff disney does now

[Stressfactor]

A friend got me all of the early Superman cartoons on two DVD's for Christmas a few years back and they are awesome.

As for the first story... If you go to the Superman daily newspaper comic strips the origin from the comic stirps is verbatim the one used in the cartoon. The strips only predated the cartoon by a few years.

You will also note in the ealry strips AND early comic books that Superman wasn't as powerful as he would later be. He could not fly and he was not completely invulnerable. Extremely tough, yes, but not invulnerable.

If you are interested in old Superman at all Barnes and Noble reprinted all of the daily newspaper strips as well as the color Sunday strips in two beautiful hardcover editions that are only about $20 each! They were produced a couple of years ago to accompany Superman Returns in the movie theaters but you can probably still find them in a store or online. You really can't beat the price and it is fascinating to watch the Superman mythos slowly develop over time. It's also interesting to see cultural mores and ideas of the time and how they played out in the stories.

[Carter Hall]

As for the first story... If you go to the Superman daily newspaper comic strips the origin from the comic stirps is verbatim the one used in the cartoon. The strips only predated the cartoon by a few years.

Huh. I didn't know this.

A few more comments:
- No, Superman mostly super-long-jumped in the EARLY stuff
- These cartoons were actually the visual inspiration for GOTHAM CITY believe it or not, actually, not Metropolis (at least not that I'm aware of). In any case, Batman was first.

[MaxofSteel]

Another cool factoid I remember hearing (and I could be wrong on this one) is that it was the Fleischer cartoons that introduced the concept of Superman being able to fly. After the cartoons, it was then put into the comics.

I thought that was neat.

[Floyd The Barber]

Somebody humor me here...
WTF is a rotoscope?

[Brad Barton]

Somebody humor me here...
WTF is a rotoscope?Wikipedia is your friend. ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotoscoping:
Rotoscoping is an animation technique in which animators trace over live-action film movement, frame by frame, for use in animated films.


Saw something else in this atricle that clears up a point as well, and completely by accident. (gotta love Wikipedia)
The technique was invented by Max Fleischer, who used it in his series Out of the Inkwell starting around 1915, with his brother Dave Fleischer dressed in a clown outfit as the live-film reference for the character Koko the Clown....
.....The Fleischer studio's most effective use of rotoscoping was in their series of action-oriented Superman cartoons, in which Superman and the other animated figures displayed very realistic movement.

Not sure if that's 100% accurate, but there it is.

[MaxofSteel]

It's an artistic preference a lot of the time, nowadays. Back then rotoscope was used cause a lot of animators had trouble animating realistic human form.

It's why Snow White in the old Disney movie moves like a real person.

[TROUBLEZ]

If you are interested in old Superman at all Barnes and Noble reprinted all of the daily newspaper strips as well as the color Sunday strips in two beautiful hardcover editions that are only about $20 each! They were produced a couple of years ago to accompany Superman Returns in the movie theaters but you can probably still find them in a store or online.

Thanks for the info.

And for me, the Fleischer Superman cartoons are like the definitive version of Superman.

I got all the episodes at Best Buy for 5 bucks.

[Floyd The Barber]

Wikipedia is your friend. ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotoscoping:



Saw something else in this atricle that clears up a point as well, and completely by accident. (gotta love Wikipedia)


Not sure if that's 100% accurate, but there it is.

Ahhhhh....
Thanks very much. Knowledge is power and power you have given. Good Karma to you my friend. Thanks!

I ALSO got quite a good collection of these old Supes cartoons from Dollar Tree of all places. I remember when I first moved into my current place, I didn't have no TV and mostly watched tapes and videos and these Supes cartoons were quite comforting.

[lovefist911]

Thanks for the info.

And for me, the Fleischer Superman cartoons are like the definitive version of Superman.

I got all the episodes at Best Buy for 5 bucks.

I found all the episodes on DVD at Walgreen's in the $1 bin for... well, a dollar.

I hope the Superman shown in the New Frontiers movie will have a splash of that Fleischer charm.

[Pól Rua]

I found all the episodes on DVD at Walgreen's in the $1 bin for... well, a dollar.

I hope the Superman shown in the New Frontiers movie will have a splash of that Fleischer charm.

Well, he definitely has that Fleisher costume.
http://www.megacitycomics.co.uk/acatalog/poster_new_frontier.jpg
http://http://www.toyotter.com/stas/images/fleisher.jpg

[Brad Barton]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8QCv5cGGyHE
"Superman vs. The Sea Monster"......Priceless.
I think this episode just about sums up the pre-crisis essence of Superman.

In watching it, you'll note: No Heat Vision. No arctic breath. No flying and no real super-speed. This is Superman at his core, baby.

[Paul Newell]

I found all the episodes on DVD at Walgreen's in the $1 bin for... well, a dollar.
Just to put in a suggestion from the other end of the spectrum, I found the Collectors' editions of Superman the Movie and Superman II fairly cheap to buy, though not a dollar. The former is four discs and includes the Fleischer episodes, two versions of the 1979 movie, plus the Superman TV show movie length pilot, starring George Reeves.

Superman II is 3 discs and has both cuts of the movie, plus the "Famous Studios" Superman eps. These were the ones that were produced after the studio was bought by Paramount. There's also a great documentary about the SUperman cartoons.

Everything has been cleaned up, restored and looks fantastic. :)

[Kid Kyoto]

Ordered from Amazon, thanks for the recommendations.

[davids]

http://retrovision.tv/?p=671

by the way watch the bulleters, why use that contraption to steal, sale the plans and tecnology to the goverment for a billion bucks1

[Brad Barton]

http://retrovision.tv/?p=671Awesome link man, much appreciated.

Who needs Dollar Tree? :p

[DavidAllred]

Just ran across a few of them while perusing Youtube and was duly impressed. The animation is stellar, in some cases Disney-feature quality or even better, and this without the use of Rotoscoping.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8QCv5cGGyHE - I think this was the first episode, not sure though. It's interesting that the origin is so different. Was this the old, old, oooooold pre-Crisis origin?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8QCv5cGGyHE - Another good one. Man, the animation completely blows todays stuff out of the water.

These are too cool. I can't believe I'm only just now discovering them.

I was able to pick up a DVD with 8 or 10 episodes of this series for $1 at Walgreens. Best investment I ever made, my kids watch them over and over and they are a lot of fun.

[Duy]

Amazing animation, and great, great lightwork.

[davids]

He tried many new concepts beside roto scoping. He filmed Live sets and put his animation in froint of the constructed sets. Popye meets sinbad is one of the best exsamples.

Fletcher tried to also natch Disney by making animated features. Gulivers travles was one and Mr Hoppity goes to town. Some of his Black and white cartoons [koko the clown and betty Boop were far more adult and dark and weird. Even ran into trouble with the Hayes office!

[captain_unimpressive]

Rant:

This proves why the weaker Superman is, the better the stories get.
Sure people love writing stories where God fights crime, but what you get in the Fleischer cartoons isn't that much stronger then peak human. Watching Clark Kent in a costume (not Kal-El out of one) actually struggle to move a door, or bend metal, rather than acting like he could do it in his sleep, paints a picture of someone who's really passionate about what he does. This isn't some Kryptonian ultimate being who's gracing you with his abilities. This isn't the Superman that lets us sympatize with Lex Luthor because his vision of Superman is actually accurate. Fleischer Superman gives a crap.

[Duy]

Rant:

This proves why the weaker Superman is, the better the stories get.
Sure people love writing stories where God fights crime, but what you get in the Fleischer cartoons isn't that much stronger then peak human. Watching Clark Kent in a costume (not Kal-El out of one) actually struggle to move a door, or bend metal, rather than acting like he could do it in his sleep, paints a picture of someone who's really passionate about what he does. This isn't some Kryptonian ultimate being who's gracing you with his abilities. This isn't the Superman that lets us sympatize with Lex Luthor because his vision of Superman is actually accurate. Fleischer Superman gives a crap.
Yep, that's why Justice League Season one Superman was such a big hit.

Oh wait... no.... he sucked.

Seriously, if power levels get in the way of them telling a good story, then quite frankly, they're just not good writers.

[Kid Kyoto]

Thanks again for this thread, I'm watching it now and it is amazing. The art deco designs, the threats, the expressiveness of the characters, the music...

Since they were meant as stand-alone shorts shown before a film there's no story arc, subplots or much in the way of supporting characters. Just fun 15 minutes stories with great art.

Just amazing. It was $10 on Amazon and well worth it.

[MaxofSteel]

Just amazing. It was $10 on Amazon and well worth it.

Hm. I gotta pick me up some of this goodness too.

[Brad Barton]

Hm. I gotta pick me up some of this goodness too.I think I may as well. You can watch them online for free, but I can see the cleaned up versions being worth the money.

It would be nice if we could get a new Superman series that combined Timm's writing with Fleischers animation. (no disrespect to Timm's stuff). I think we'd probably have a precedent setting new animated series if that could be accomplished.

[NotSuper]

This proves why the weaker Superman is, the better the stories get.
It doesn't "prove" anything. That argument is incredibly reductionist and simplistic. These stories were good because the writing was good, it had nothing to do with the level of Superman's powers. Furthermore, your argument is based on what you like, while ignoring what other people like.

And it doesn't account for All-Star Superman, which had won numerous awards (including a few Eisners) and gotten universal critical acclaim.

[Kirayoshi]

It's an artistic preference a lot of the time, nowadays. Back then rotoscope was used cause a lot of animators had trouble animating realistic human form.

It's why Snow White in the old Disney movie moves like a real person.
One of the best uses of rotoscoping was in a surreal dance number from the Fleischers' Betty Boop cartoon "Snow White" (http://youtube.com/watch?v=4h-KnBpEKJA). In the second half of this one, check out Koko the Clown singing "St James Infirmary Blues"(with the voice of Cab Calloway), while shuffling like Cab across the screen, even while being transformed into a ghostlike creature by the evil queen.

The Fleischers also rotoscoped Cab's dance moves and used his voice for two other cartoons; "Minnie the Moocher" (http://youtube.com/watch?v=hnuxaINwmV0) and "Old Man of the Mountain (http://youtube.com/watch?v=KQhYAkYUqMI)". (Minnie the Moocher was banned from public airplay because of its black and Jewish stereotyping.)

[MaxofSteel]

One of the best uses of rotoscoping was in a surreal dance number from the Fleischers' Betty Boop cartoon "Snow White" (http://youtube.com/watch?v=4h-KnBpEKJA). In the second half of this one, check out Koko the Clown singing "St James Infirmary Blues"(with the voice of Cab Calloway), while shuffling like Cab across the screen, even while being transformed into a ghostlike creature by the evil queen.

Yeah I remember watching that scene in class some time ago. It's really well done.