Warren Ellis' Come In Alone

[mauisunset]

I was just wondering how many aspiring proffessionals have read Warren Ellis' Come In Alone (it's a book that collects a year's worth of short essays from this very website, in case you haven't been around that long.)

It's a great book from a fan's perspective, but I'm really wondering how many aspiring creators have checked it out.

As an aspiring creator it's my absolute BIBLE. I read the thing probably four times a year, the cover just fell off and the thing is covered in liqour stains!`

If you have'nt read it, check it out especially if you would like to work in comics!

Thanks All!

[Jeff Brady]

I have that one. It's pretty good, but wouldn't use it as my Bible.

[mauisunset]

I have that one. It's pretty good, but wouldn't use it as my Bible.

Are you an aspiring/payed creator?

I say my bible because I'm a really big believer in creators taking charge of their carreers and retaing control and ownership of their work-not that I think ill of anyone who goes the other route, I just think, like he says in the book, that you can't go and take those companies money on their terms and then bitch about it when you find out being a creator can be a very difficult life.

And the man walks the walk, too. His new books from Avatar (I believe) are all creator owned.

[Jeff Brady]

Are you an aspiring/payed creator?

I say my bible because I'm a really big believer in creators taking charge of their carreers and retaing control and ownership of their work-not that I think ill of anyone who goes the other route, I just think, like he says in the book, that you can't go and take those companies money on their terms and then bitch about it when you find out being a creator can be a very difficult life.

And the man walks the walk, too. His new books from Avatar (I believe) are all creator owned.

Aspiring, yes. Paid, hell no. I'm less concerned about ownership at the moment than I am about quality of content (story & art).

[mauisunset]

Are you working on your own book or just getting your portfolio prepared?

I don't think ownership is that important if your doing something that your not confident will sell well or something just really experimental, but if you're doing an action/adventure mainstream-ish book, I think it's better to retain ownership instead of kicking yourself down the line because once you sign it over they're not gonna be nice and give you anything back.

[Jeff Brady]

Are you working on your own book or just getting your portfolio prepared?

I don't think ownership is that important if your doing something that your not confident will sell well or something just really experimental, but if you're doing an action/adventure mainstream-ish book, I think it's better to retain ownership instead of kicking yourself down the line because once you sign it over they're not gonna be nice and give you anything back.

My own book. I have very little interest working for/with anyone else.

[mauisunset]

My own book. I have very little interest working for/with anyone else.

Good for you-you're doing all the colors, lettering, etc.?

My girlfriend colors and I'll probably do digital lettering, but I haven't crossed that bridge yet.

[Jeff Brady]

Good for you-you're doing all the colors, lettering, etc.?

My girlfriend colors and I'll probably do digital lettering, but I haven't crossed that bridge yet.

Yep, doing everything. Even made my own font. Check out DC's Guide to Coloring & Lettering. Digital lettering is a snap.

[stealthwise]

I love those articles, and they serve as a great time capsule as to some of the prevalent thoughts about comics at the time. Stuff like the "nurse novel" critique of superhero books, advice about the crazy comic industry and how to actually get your stuff considered for submission.

I like Jeff's ideas too, regarding quality over worrying about what will happen IF you ever get published. Art should come from desire, not greed/financial aspiration.

[mauisunset]

Yep, doing everything. Even made my own font. Check out DC's Guide to Coloring & Lettering. Digital lettering is a snap.

Thanks a lot, man. I'll be getting it.

[Jeff Brady]

Thanks a lot, man. I'll be getting it.

Awesome.

Hey, can you do me a favor, if you've got a half hour to spare? Read through this (http://sequentialsalon.blogspot.com/2007/10/so-you-wanna-make-comics-eh.html), and tell me if there's anything else you'd add to it.

[howyadoin]

I love those articles, and they serve as a great time capsule as to some of the prevalent thoughts about comics at the time. Stuff like the "nurse novel" critique of superhero books, advice about the crazy comic industry and how to actually get your stuff considered for submission.I think it mostly stands up to the test of time, but it's funny to read some of his rants in light of the fact that he's still writing superheroes for Marvel.

[mauisunset]

I love those articles, and they serve as a great time capsule as to some of the prevalent thoughts about comics at the time. Stuff like the "nurse novel" critique of superhero books, advice about the crazy comic industry and how to actually get your stuff considered for submission.

I like Jeff's ideas too, regarding quality over worrying about what will happen IF you ever get published. Art should come from desire, not greed/financial aspiration.

Yes on the first point. And while I can see his point, in my particular situation, I'm telling a story that I'm really confident in that just happens to be mainstream-ish. And I also could afford self-publishing if I had to.
And I disagree that art should never be somewhat inspired by wanting to make a fair profit. And I'm really not trying to be cocky by just assuming it'll make money. When you look at some of the dross that get's published...if you've worked long and hard (which I believe I have) why walk in thinking negatively.
I think one should choose whether or not to be a creator for desire and higher ideals, but profit is how I feed myself and if I could make money while sticking to my ideals, well I think it's a little snooty to take offense with that, which suprises me because I agree with about 100% of what you have to say, stealth.

Also, Stealthwise are you a creator? Sorry if I sound stalkerish by assuming that I know you, but I've been in the forum and lurking around for years, I just had a problem with my password never getting fixed and then losing another, so I've had a few different screen names.

[mauisunset]

I think it mostly stands up to the test of time, but it's funny to read some of his rants in light of the fact that he's still writing superheroes for Marvel.

You have to reread the Old Bastards manifesto howyadoin "I am part of the problem, Fuck You."

His company stuff leaves me kind of cold, but he's probably my favorite writer just considering his creator owned work.

Howyadoin, are you a creator?

[howyadoin]

You have to reread the Old Bastards manifesto howyadoin "I am part of the problem, Fuck You."Oh, I've read the book, and I read all the columns when they were posted here. I don't think he's a gigantic hypocrite, but it still does make me laugh sometimes.

Howyadoin, are you a creator?I'm an artist, but I've got no interest in working in comics, to be honest.

[stealthwise]

Yes on the first point. And while I can see his point, in my particular situation, I'm telling a story that I'm really confident in that just happens to be mainstream-ish. And I also could afford self-publishing if I had to.
And I disagree that art should never be somewhat inspired by wanting to make a fair profit. And I'm really not trying to be cocky by just assuming it'll make money. When you look at some of the dross that get's published...if you've worked long and hard (which I believe I have) why walk in thinking negatively.
I think one should choose whether or not to be a creator for desire and higher ideals, but profit is how I feed myself and if I could make money while sticking to my ideals, well I think it's a little snooty to take offense with that, which suprises me because I agree with about 100% of what you have to say, stealth.

Also, Stealthwise are you a creator? Sorry if I sound stalkerish by assuming that I know you, but I've been in the forum and lurking around for years, I just had a problem with my password never getting fixed and then losing another, so I've had a few different screen names.

Yeah, I don't have a art vs commerce outlook, I just meant that it's probably important to have a story that you feel needs telling before you worry about money. There's nothing at all wrong with wanting to make a living through making art.

As for myself, I'm not even a "professional amateur," as I haven't been able to produce anything readable in years, but a friend and I have been working together on a project that was originally going to be a comic, but will likely start out as prose. Ironically, it's very Ellis-ish in terms of theme and plot.

[Jeff Brady]

Howyadoin, are you a creator?

"Are you a god?"

"No."

"Then...DIE!"

[mauisunset]

I'm an artist, but I've got no interest in working in comics, to be honest.

You have funny tastes in websites.

[mauisunset]

As for myself, I'm not even a "professional amateur," as I haven't been able to produce anything readable in years, but a friend and I have been working together on a project that was originally going to be a comic, but will likely start out as prose. Ironically, it's very Ellis-ish in terms of theme and plot.


That's suprising considering IMHO a lot of what you say makes a lot of sense.

[howyadoin]

You have funny tastes in websites.You thought CBR was aimed at people who work in the comic industry?

For a guy who claims to have lurked here for years, you're missing a lot.

[Jeff Brady]

You have funny tastes in websites.

One doesn't have to create comics to post here, ya know. You can just be a fan.

[howyadoin]

One doesn't have to create comics to post here, ya know. You can just be a fan.Shocking. This changes everything.

[mauisunset]

You thought CBR was aimed at people who work in the comic industry?

For a guy who claims to have lurked here for years, you're missing a lot.

Howyadoin, that's we we in the industry call a JOKE.

I was just suprised that you'd be THAT into comics AND an artist AND have "absolutely not interest in creating them"

I'd have to think you're in a very small minority of people with those same circumstances. What's the figure? Something like half of all fans want to work in the industry in some capacity?

[howyadoin]

Howyadoin, that's we we in the industry call a JOKE.Bright-Raven, is that you?

I was just suprised that you'd be THAT into comics AND an artist AND have "absolutely not interest in creating them"There's a huge world of art outside of sequential storytelling.

I'd have to think you're in a very small minority of people with those same circumstances. What's the figure? Something like half of all fans want to work in the industry in some capacity?Back when I was in college studying graphic design, almost everybody in my class wanted to be a comic artist, myself included.

But from what I've seen of the comics "industry", a lot of it is a fucking joke. There are certainly no standards of professionalism to be seen, considering that Rob Liefeld still gets work.

And unless you're in the top tier, you're working for chump change, if not for free.

[stealthwise]

That's suprising considering IMHO a lot of what you say makes a lot of sense.

Well, for years I wanted to be a professional writer. I have a degree in English, and am about 3/4 through a MA degree in English/Anthropology, with comics as my key texts (Sandman, Transmetropolitan, etc.). As a result, I have quite a bit of experience with writing and lit critique, especially after taking a few creative writing workshop classes. I've read a ton about writing fiction, non-fiction, screenplays, scripts, etc.

After a few years though, I realized that I spent much more time thinking and talking about being a writer rather than just writing. It's not a huge deal, although it was a bit disappointing at first. Now I work in real estate appraisal, but still do side work on my unfinished thesis and constantly keep up on writing techniques and approaches.

[mauisunset]

Bright-Raven, is that you?

Never gone by that

There's a huge world of art outside of sequential storytelling.

Between this and the last post I'd say you're a master of the obvious.

When I was in college studying graphic design, almost everybody in my class wanted to be a comic artist, myself included.

But from what I've seen of the comics "industry", a lot of it is a fucking joke. There are certainly no standards of professionalism to be seen, considering that Rob Liefeld still gets work.

And unless you're in the top tier, you're working for chump change, if not for free.

There's lots of starving artists, and I'm pretty sure you make chump change in plenty of them if you're not in the top tier.

However, we're in complete agreement on Liefeld.

[mauisunset]

Well, for years I wanted to be a professional writer. I have a degree in English, and am about 3/4 through a MA degree in English/Anthropology, with comics as my key texts (Sandman, Transmetropolitan, etc.). As a result, I have quite a bit of experience with writing and lit critique, especially after taking a few creative writing workshop classes. I've read a ton about writing fiction, non-fiction, screenplays, scripts, etc.

After a few years though, I realized that I spent much more time thinking and talking about being a writer rather than just writing. It's not a huge deal, although it was a bit disappointing at first. Now I work in real estate appraisal, but still do side work on my unfinished thesis and constantly keep up on writing techniques and approaches.

Yeah, you sound pretty busy. Once you have you're MA I'd have to think you'll have more writing time. I'm really lucky in that regard: I own my own business and only do much work 3-4 days a week. Still, I'm really slow and have worked on the first issue for the better part of a year because I do really agree with the quality issues you guys were talking about earlier. I've started to streamline my process, though, so I certainly don't expect it to go that slow forever. If I did I think I'd just off myself and save the trouble.

[mauisunset]

Well, for years I wanted to be a professional writer. I have a degree in English, and am about 3/4 through a MA degree in English/Anthropology, with comics as my key texts (Sandman, Transmetropolitan, etc.). As a result, I have quite a bit of experience with writing and lit critique, especially after taking a few creative writing workshop classes. I've read a ton about writing fiction, non-fiction, screenplays, scripts, etc.

After a few years though, I realized that I spent much more time thinking and talking about being a writer rather than just writing. It's not a huge deal, although it was a bit disappointing at first. Now I work in real estate appraisal, but still do side work on my unfinished thesis and constantly keep up on writing techniques and approaches.

I'll tell you, I read a really surprising interview with Niel Gaimen in Sketch magazine a few years back, and he said he actually thought most comic book writers write way too much. I know that really goes against conventional wisdom, but I think there's something to it.

I know any prose writer will tell you if you want to write, sit down right now and start writing and don't stop, but I think with comics you can take more time thinking about and planning your story. Prose are different becauseyou need to really have a lot of practise in writing captivating and interesting text. Now I know that applies to dialouge in comics, but not so much in plot or descriptiveness, as some of that is really handled by the artist.

Now if I had to give advice to an artist (because I do my own) I would defivately give the same advice as a prose writer-it takes a lot of time and experience to get even decent.

Maybe I'm way off on that, but I think the volume that modern comic writers produce is less a product of what they have to do as a product of what they can.

I may be completely off the mark, but I hope you get what I'm trying to get across.

[howyadoin]

There's lots of starving artists, and I'm pretty sure you make chump change in plenty of them if you're not in the top tier.How much money does Bill Sienkiewicz make outside the comic industry vs. inside?

Frank Frazetta?

Neil Gaiman?

[Michael P]

I read the column when it was coming out. I recall agreeing with some of what he said, disagreeing with other. It's certainly funny now to see him rake Morrison over the coals for taking on the X-Men gig.

[Agent Helix]

I like Warren Ellis a lot and everything, but for pity's sake, it's not like he's the only guy ever who's actually written any comics. His opinions and observations aren't sacrosanct.

[Reptisaurus!]

How much money does Bill Sienkiewicz make outside the comic industry vs. inside?

Frank Frazetta?

Neil Gaiman?

Raise you Dan Clowes, Harvey Pekar, Art Speigelman and (weirdly) Jeph Loeb who says that his comic writing pays much worse than his Hollywood-y stuff.

I'm really bummed about Sienkewicz, though. I'd love to see more stuff like Stray Toasters.

[howyadoin]

Raise you Dan Clowes, Harvey Pekar, Art Speigelman and (weirdly) Jeph Loeb who says that his comic writing pays much worse than his Hollywood-y stuff.

I'm really bummed about Sienkewicz, though. I'd love to see more stuff like Stray Toasters.I hear ya. I just find it funny when people trumpet comics - as much as I love them - as the pinnacle of artistic success.

Of course, I also find "we in the industry" funny, too.

[Reptisaurus!]

I hear ya. I just find it funny when people trumpet comics - as much as I love them - as the pinnacle of artistic success.


Well, if by "success" they mean "Not making any damn money ever...."

(Says the currently unemployed-ish college student, mind.)

Of course, I also find "we in the industry" funny, too.

Well, yeah.

I *did* notice that, come to think.

In fact, rather like Warren Ellis' writing, that's generally as concerned with creating and rendering the Warren-Ellis-as-angry-curmudgeon character that he invented in his head, this marmoest guy seems to be adopting a false front for the purpose of impressing the rubes.

Ellis is better at it, of course.

[mauisunset]

How much money does Bill Sienkiewicz make outside the comic industry vs. inside?

Frank Frazetta?

Neil Gaiman?

I know stray toasters is creator owned as well as other Sienkiewicz work, but don't you find it funny that, of the creators you've mentioned have not owned their most notable work? An issue heavily-mentioned in CIA?

[mauisunset]

Of course, I also find "we in the industry" funny, too.

IT WAS A JOKE. After our two last vollies I would have thought you'd understand that. IT WAS A JOKE. R E L A X.

I've posted before that I'm a writer/artist working on the first issue of a self-published title. I'm not running my mouth. Have a sense of humor!

[mauisunset]

In fact, rather like Warren Ellis' writing, that's generally as concerned with creating and rendering the Warren-Ellis-as-angry-curmudgeon character that he invented in his head, this marmoest guy seems to be adopting a false front for the purpose of impressing the rubes.

Ellis is better at it, of course.

What makes you think I want to be Ellis? Might it be at all possible that maybe I enjoy his work or that I might agree with some of his point of views?


No it's definately because I joind the Ellis testicle-taste of the month club.

If you want to just Ellis hate for the sake of it, you might want to realize that there are some people that think like him and are'nt just trying to be clones.

[Reptisaurus!]

What makes you think I want to be Ellis?


Nothing. Which is why I didn't say or even slightly imply anything of the sort.

See how that works?

[mauisunset]

In fact, rather like Warren Ellis' writing, that's generally as concerned with creating and rendering the Warren-Ellis-as-angry-curmudgeon character that he invented in his head, this marmoest guy seems to be adopting a false front for the purpose of impressing the rubes.

Ellis is better at it, of course.

Sorry I just assumed you were implying that with the whole "marmoest guy...impressing the rubes"

Truth be told, I have no idea what you meant cause I've never heard the word "marmoest" before (if it is one.)

[Jeff Brady]

Truth be told, I have no idea what you meant cause I've never heard the word "marmoest" before (if it is one.)

A marmoset (I'm guessing Repti made a typo) is a type of primate.

[howyadoin]

IT WAS A JOKE. After our two last vollies I would have thought you'd understand that. IT WAS A JOKE. R E L A X.Sorry, did I seem upset? Angry? Irate?

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

I know stray toasters is creator owned as well as other Sienkiewicz work, but don't you find it funny that, of the creators you've mentioned have not owned their most notable work? An issue heavily-mentioned in CIA?

I don't know much about Frazzetta, but of the other two, I'm pretty sure they have owned it.

American Gods or Stardust could easily be considered Neil's most notable work, at least most noticed, and he owns that.

Again with Sienkiewicz, I'd put some of his albums and Roger Waters set designs as more noticed, and notable, than his comics work.

You seem to see comics as the be all and end all, where as to other creators, they're just a medium.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Have a sense of humor!

Maybe you need to get one?

Not trying to slam you man, but if you keep making jokes, and people keep misunderstanding, they either aren't funny, or being delivered wrong.

Steven Grant, another columnist on this site has archives, and PDF's available for purchase, to collect his Master Of The Obvious and Permanent Damage columns that also cover similar ground as the CIA columns, but are still worth reading.
Larry Young used to talk about comic creation as well in his old column, which should still be in the archives.
Matt Fraction first had a solo column, and then one where he was joined by Joe Casey, both about creating comics.

You may not like them as much, but I'd say the more perspectives the better, when you're just starting out.