Batman Confidential

[Sizzle]

I just got my comics for the month, and I was suprised no one has mentioned the Joker Origin story at all.

For those that have not read it yet

*SPOILERS*










*SPOILERS*

I think portraying his pre-Joker self as a tough guy/hitman type certainly makes sense for the level of intelligence and resourcefulness the Joker is portrayed as having in comics today. However, I think it just does not have the appeal that Moore's Killing Joke presentation has to me. The Confidential story does not seem to touch the mental aspects of the character at all. I think he'd have to be a bit off kilter to begin with, the acid bath alone should not be the cause of his lunacy.

Not that I have not been enjoying the story, but it is certainly a long way away from being the definitive.

[swedishmeatballs]

The first two issues were solid and original. Pre Joker being someone who was looking for some more thrills from robberies was a good move, because it was original. The third issue was flat because we knew Lorna was going to be killed from a mile away. It was so cliche's, and the last issue too. Carved smile? Please. That's just to promote The Dark Knight like what Morrison did in his Joker issue. It's half baked, basically.

[Rattlehead]

It's an OK story, on it's own. I enjoyed it a lot more when he was just plain ol Jack. Once he became the Joker it kind of lost it's appeal to me, as we already do know some things about the Joker's origin, and this just kind of chucked all of that out of the window. I'm thinking this story would have been a lot better had it just told the story of Batman's first encounter with an enemy completely lacking in morals. As a supposed origin of the Joker it's really not working. That being said, I would like to see a Noir-ish comic book written by Micheal Green, as he's nailed that aspect of Batman perfectly. I'm probably going to drop this after this arc is finished though, both this book and Superman Confidential are turning into junk rather quickly.

[The Xenos]

People will complain that I'm not accepting change. Well, they're right. Why does DC feel they need to update Joker's origin? Why? To produce yet another book to sell? And this month, or rather on sale in Jan, they solicit the original Killing Joke along with Bolland modeled figures? Well, dammit if they can't make up their mind. This doesn't make a lick of sense to long term fans, never mind new fans.

What a waste of a story. Another origin of the Joker? Don't give me this multiple choice thing. It was a line from Moore's origin, but DC has turned it into a lame excuse to keep creating new stories, milking long term fans and new fans alike. Enough.

And this time they got some writerfrom Heroes who mainly knows the totally wrong movie origin. Brilliant. (Though I will admit that last episode of Heroes, which I think was his, was pretty good. He should stick with original work and what he knows.)

[Batman was taken]

People should really learn to rate stories on their own merit, and not compare them to 20 year old stories, no matter how good that story was.

Yes, Killing Joke was very good. Does that mean they can never, ever write another Joker origin? No. In fact, based on that assumption, they would never be able to write another story, cause everythings been done already!

If you look at this as just a story, I think it's pretty good. Not as good as KJ, but still good.

I know it's human nature to compare one thing to another, but to continually rag on this story because of one that came out years ago is silly. Hell, people were bashing this story before the first issue even came out!

If you don't like the story because OF the story, fine, everyone has different tastes. But if you don't like it because it contradicts something from 20 years ago, let it go.

Sorry, don't mean to attack anyone, or rant. But it bugs me when people bash a story without even reading it, based on something completely unrelated...

[Dr. Chaos]

Man, I gotta say, I'll be glad when they knock this clunker out of continuity in a year or two..

As "just a story", it's a painfully average retelling of one of the greatest villians in comic book history, there is nonthing original about this or anything to hook me.

Next time DC hires someone to needlessly **** with one of their biggest characters origins, hopefully they'll leave Michael Green out of it.

I went into this arc with an open mind hoping he had something amazing up his sleeve here and there was no way he would be allowed to work on it otherwise, but now, I think it's safe to he had nonthing to offer.

[The Xenos]

I have to disagree. When you're talking about DC and Batman with a 60 year old history, you sure have to take it in context. DC's producing an unessisary story instead of selling the good one they already have.

Killing Joke has long been accepted as the quintessential Joker origin story. Hell, DC is selling it as that and at the same time trying to retell the story and say Killing Joke is not. DC is just milking it. When a story already exists and you retell it, you better be ready for people to compare it to the same story you told before. Are you kidding?

It's like saying people should accept the new cgi Alvin & The Chipmonks and ignore the originals. Ignore Hamlet and just read up on your cyberpunk Manga Shakespere Hamlet. (I wish I was making that up.) Then there's the movie based on a stage musical based on a movie trend. Ignore Willy Wonka or Planet of the Apes and just watch Burton's version. (Or ignore Roald Dahl's book and just look at the movie.) Ignore the book and previous films and just go see Will Smith in I am Legend. Same for I, Robot.

Aw hell no. I don't buy that. These things are no created in a vaccum. That's just not going to work. Of course people will compare it to older versions of the story.

[Code-Name V]

It was kind of disappointing, but at times it was entertaining.

I still prefer TKJ as the "definitive" origin of The Joker, if such a thing could ever be claimed.

I never cared for the movie origin. I thought that before the fall into the chemicals, Jack Napier was too ordinary. He needed to be teetering on the verge of insanity to begin with before he became The Joker, kind of like having something to build on.

[rZi]

I don't enjoy this origin at all, i think i wont ever find anything that works as well as the killing joke. Plus am i the only one who nearly throws up at this artwork? it's truly horrible

[earl]

I have not read this story arc as I was waiting for it to be complete to read the whole thing.

That being said, I don't mind them re-telling origin stories as long as they are good. The Long Halloween did the Two-Face story better than that annual not long after Crisis, which wasn't bad either.

I think if they want to do flashback issues they would be better doing what Matt Wagner did with the Monster Men and Mad Monk mini-series which took golden age tales and updated them. I'd say there could be a good story in doing a Joker story based on some of the really wacky older stories and showing how got more and more violent and deadly. If I was going to do a flashback Joker story, I'd have to bring in the golden age big penny story (which I have not seen done in the post-crisis titles).

Then again, if I was DC, I would do more flashback titles and have at least one based upon Batman, Dick Grayson as Robin and Barbara Gordon as Batgirl. I guess DC kind of doing this with All Star Batman and Robin, but outside the nice artwork, it is pretty meh.

Most of the time for the new Batman titles, I prefer the stand alone titles than all of these story lines that have to tie into the current Bat-continuity or whatever big crossover event going on in the DC Universe.

[The Xenos]

At least Long Halloween as put separately and maked as an important mini series. With this, it was the second arc of another new Batman series. It didn't feel important. It felt throw away, more pulp for DC to sell to gullible fans. Just another DC book on the shelf.

DC needs to stop doing this. They need to quit trying to sell many books to a small audience and make a select selection of books to sell to a wider audience. I'm a longtime Batman fan and I still don't know what books are worth it to buy.

As for the art, I may be biased. I was a fan of Cowan from his 80s run on The Question with Denny O'Neil. His style is a bit different, but I liked it. It's messy, but I kinda like the style. Meanwhile, I wish he had gotten a different story. I almost got it just for the art, but that bar scene with the Harley was just painful. It was like the worst bits of the conincidences and puns in Heroes showing up in Joker's origin story.

[Captain Jim]

I've only read the first two parts so far, but at this point, I'm enjoying it. And I think Cowen's a great artist. There's nothing wrong with good stylized art; not everyone has to be Jim Lee.

[Paul Dee]

I've only read the first two parts so far, but at this point, I'm enjoying it. And I think Cowen's a great artist. There's nothing wrong with good stylized art; not everyone has to be Jim Lee.

Yeah, definitely. I love Cowan's art and even though this is a lot rougher and sketchier than on, say, his Blind Justice arc I still love it. The covers he did were largely awful though, especially the one with the Joker where his eye is about 3 miles away from his nose. That's too much.

[swedishmeatballs]

People should really learn to rate stories on their own merit, and not compare them to 20 year old stories, no matter how good that story was.

Yes, Killing Joke was very good. Does that mean they can never, ever write another Joker origin? No. In fact, based on that assumption, they would never be able to write another story, cause everythings been done already!

If you look at this as just a story, I think it's pretty good. Not as good as KJ, but still good.

I know it's human nature to compare one thing to another, but to continually rag on this story because of one that came out years ago is silly. Hell, people were bashing this story before the first issue even came out!

If you don't like the story because OF the story, fine, everyone has different tastes. But if you don't like it because it contradicts something from 20 years ago, let it go.

Sorry, don't mean to attack anyone, or rant. But it bugs me when people bash a story without even reading it, based on something completely unrelated...

I hear you.

I can enjoy movies/comics in their own merit. We knew this wasn't going to be an updated Killing Joke (and thank god for that!) or Man Who Laughs. For the people who are enjoying this, more power to you, but the last two issues were a bit too sour. The whole series so far is 'eh' level, for me personally.

[Batman was taken]

I hear you.

I can enjoy movies/comics in their own merit. We knew this wasn't going to be an updated Killing Joke (and thank god for that!) or Man Who Laughs. For the people who are enjoying this, more power to you, but the last two issues were a bit too sour. The whole series so far is 'eh' level, for me personally.

Exactly. I agree that is has tapered off a little... though the first bit of it was quite enjoyable.

I just bugs the hell out of me when people are bashing books before they even come out... The same things going on with Spider-Man right now. People already boy coting One More Day...

Conversely, when people build some up beyond reasonable expectations and then are pissed when it's doesn't live up to the lofty expectation...

Anyways, I kinda started ranting there again... just leave me be:)

[TROUBLEZ]

I didn't like it that much. Alot of people here are saying that everyones bashing it only because they are comparing it to TKJ or because they are biased, and I think it's really because the art and story just don't appeal to as many people as TKJ.
Alex Ross and Paul Dini did their own origin of The Joker in Batman:Black and White and it's pretty good. Alot better than Batman: Confidential's origin. And I don't recall reading on any message boards any backlash to Dini's story. Maybe because that origin, too, was very good.
In my opinion, if DC was to go with the Moore-multiple-choice origin, TKJ and Dini's are good choices whereas Confidentials, IMO, should not be a choice.

[DamnedReality]

I've head rumor this title is getting the ax...Is that true? I was liking the joker origin so far... and be disappointed if they ended it before the story was finished

[Rattlehead]

I've head rumor this title is getting the ax...Is that true? I was liking the joker origin so far... and be disappointed if they ended it before the story was finished

Considering the sales on the title are pretty bad, I won't be surprised if it does get the axe. I do know that it's solicited past this story arc, and considering there's only 2 more issues to go of this arc, I'm pretty confident that this arc will be completed. It seems to me that both Confidential titles haven't been doing the business DC would like them to be.

[The Xenos]

It could be worse. They could never finish the initial story arc like on Superman confidential. It was so nice too, with Cooke and Sale. Too bad DC didn't make sure it was in the can first.

[Captain Jim]

Considering the sales on the title are pretty bad, I won't be surprised if it does get the axe.

Sales are not bad. The title is outselling Nightwing, Robin, Catwoman and Birds of Prey--not to mention several non-bat books.

[RowdyRodimus]

I just tend to look at it as one of the origins that the Joker remembers from day to day. If you remember, even he isn't exactly sure as to what happened to him to turn him from what he was to what he is.

[The Xenos]

Sales are not bad. The title is outselling Nightwing, Robin, Catwoman and Birds of Prey--not to mention several non-bat books.

I guess they should rename all of those Batman: Nightwing, Batman: Robin, Batman: Catwoman and Batman: Birds of Prey.

Really, I chalk it up to 'Batman' being in the title and that it's a new series. The book is just Legends of the Dark Knight with a new name anyway. They just wanted a new number 1 to boost sales. I like 'Legends of the Dark Knight' as a title better anyway.

[Captain Jim]

The book is just Legends of the Dark Knight with a new name anyway.

So it seems.

[Nefarius]

Mediocre story,but i like some parts of this origin(while i agree that it's weak compare to Moore's or Dini's origin stories).But i love this scene:

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/9440/aabatconf113nd3.jpg

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/9070/aabatconf114zo2.jpg

[earl]

I sat down and read the first five issues of the Joker arc last week. I thought it was decent, maybe not as classic as one would hope of a Joker origin story, but it is OK. I think Cowens' art was fine. It is not like this is the end all-be all Joker origin story. Heck they are doing another one in All Star Batman right now and I am sure there will be another one in a year or two.

I'd personally like to see them do some other stories of the Joker basing them on other original pre-crisis tales, incorporating some of the crazy antics and not just him being a killer.

I'm curious what stories and artists they have lined up for future issues of the title. I've been picking up quite a few back issues of Legends of the Dark Knight and there are bunches of issues of that title that were really good. I think with a title like this one, they should be able to do quite a bit.

I'd like to see them do some good one and two issue stories.

[Captain Jim]

All I remember offhand is that the next arc is written by Tony Bedard.

[Alexx1]

I just caught up with this series and I'm actually kind of liking it. It's a little more serious and introspective view and look at Bruce and Batman. I'm also enjoying this series because we get let into the mind and thoughts of the man behind the bat suit than in other series. Sometimes series can focus too much on the superhero aspects (gadets and cool fights) and not enough on the man or woman behind the custom. This one seems to be balancing them both out: Bruce and Batman. And thanks for the tidbit about Tony, Captain Jim. I think it can only get better.

[Ramiel]

Mediocre story,but i like some parts of this origin(while i agree that it's weak compare to Moore's or Dini's origin stories).But i love this scene:

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/9440/aabatconf113nd3.jpg

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/9070/aabatconf114zo2.jpg

Is this from the Joker origin arc? I actually heard the art was awful, but I actually kind of dig that

[Rynan]

I think it's too violent and Batman becomes grossly out of character. A poor series which doesn't live up to the hype.

[Captain Jim]

Is this from the Joker origin arc? I actually heard the art was awful, but I actually kind of dig that

Yes it is and yes, the art is good. It's stylized, but the artist is generally regarded quite highly in fandom. Of course, people who can only accept Jim Lee type photo-realism will not like it.

[Captain Jim]

I think it's too violent and Batman becomes grossly out of character. A poor series which doesn't live up to the hype.

I couldn't disagree more. I think it's extremely well written and the art is quite good too. I'll take this over any of the other bat-books right now, personally.

[Ramiel]

Yes it is and yes, the art is good. It's stylized, but the artist is generally regarded quite highly in fandom. Of course, people who can only accept Jim Lee type photo-realism will not like it.

Ah, yeah that is pretty dumb that people don't appreciate style when it's not realistic and such. My guess is this Joker arc also probably isn't all that bad either

[TROUBLEZ]

Ah, yeah that is pretty dumb that people don't appreciate style when it's not realistic and such. My guess is this Joker arc also probably isn't all that bad either

Well, if your going to do a big story advertising it as THE ORIGIN of THE JOKER, maybe a more popular artist or more mainstream appeal would be better.

I liked the Cowan on Blind Justice but the his art doesn't appeal to me this time, although it's solid for a regular story. But to put his style on a big story like the origin of the Joker on a new book is not the greatest business move.

[Rattlehead]

Ah, yeah that is pretty dumb that people don't appreciate style when it's not realistic and such. My guess is this Joker arc also probably isn't all that bad either

Like I said earlier, the Joker story was clicking with me a lot better when it was sticking to the street level stuff, and he was a regular crook. Once the superheroics and villiany kicked in, it became a tad dull. Not because it doesn't live up to another Joker story or anything, just because I think had it just been a normal guy with absolutely no conscience it would have better suited Green's writing strengths. Cowan's art is fine, it's a stylized version of what you normally see from him, but it is quite good. In my opinion, trying to force this into being a Joker story has been it's biggest folly. It would have been more interesting if it was just "Jack", the bored crook looking for a thrill.

[Ramiel]

Well, if your going to do a big story advertising it as THE ORIGIN of THE JOKER, maybe a more popular artist or more mainstream appeal would be better.

I liked the Cowan on Blind Justice but the his art doesn't appeal to me this time, although it's solid for a regular story. But to put his style on a big story like the origin of the Joker on a new book is not the greatest business move.

What exactly do you mean his art is solid for a regular story and not a big story? From what I see on that panel it looks fine to me. It's look like it fits fine to me, I don't think it really matters if an artist is popular or mainstream, as long as his art is good and looks to fit I don't really see a problem. That my personal outlook on it anyway.

Like I said earlier, the Joker story was clicking with me a lot better when it was sticking to the street level stuff, and he was a regular crook. Once the superheroics and villiany kicked in, it became a tad dull. Not because it doesn't live up to another Joker story or anything, just because I think had it just been a normal guy with absolutely no conscience it would have better suited Green's writing strengths. Cowan's art is fine, it's a stylized version of what you normally see from him, but it is quite good. In my opinion, trying to force this into being a Joker story has been it's biggest folly. It would have been more interesting if it was just "Jack", the bored crook looking for a thrill.

Oh, well I guess missed that earlier, all I've heard mostly is negative stuff.

[Rabid Trekkie]

I'm planning on getting the first trade of Batman Confidential, and if that one page that was posted from the Joker arc is telling of the rest of the series, I'll pick up the next as well.

I don't really mind this take on Joker's origin, I mean its basically the same as what Timm and Dini showed in Mask of the Phantasm. Sure its different than what someone else wrote, but that's the great thing about the Joker, he's so crazy any of those origins could be the truth or none of them could be true, and for me that not knowing is what's interesting about him.

[TROUBLEZ]

What exactly do you mean his art is solid for a regular story and not a big story? From what I see on that panel it looks fine to me. It's look like it fits fine to me, I don't think it really matters if an artist is popular or mainstream, as long as his art is good and looks to fit I don't really see a problem. That my personal outlook on it anyway.



I don't mean necessarily a big story, but one that is hyped up as much. This story was hyped up by DC to be The Joker's origin. He is the most popular villain in one of DC's most popular character's books. From what I've read here, Cowans art isn't going over as well as someone like say, Brian Bolland, or Jim Lee.

If this had just been a story without all the hype in Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight, people would probably be less critical of it. But like I said, a new book, with Batman, with the glossy presentation, all the hype around revealing the Jokers origin and DC goes with an art style, that apparantly from the posters here, isn't going over that well.

I've read a much better Joker story that might be just as controversial among fanboys called "Going Sane," by JM Dematteis. The art style is somewhat similar to Cowans but it's one of those good, not really known Joker stories.

[Rabid Trekkie]

I don't mean necessarily a big story, but one that is hyped up as much. This story was hyped up by DC to be The Joker's origin. He is the most popular villain in one of DC's most popular character's books. From what I've read here, Cowans art isn't going over as well as someone like say, Brian Bolland, or Jim Lee.

If this had just been a story without all the hype in Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight, people would probably be less critical of it. But like I said, a new book, with Batman, with the glossy presentation, all the hype around revealing the Jokers origin and DC goes with an art style, that apparantly from the posters here, isn't going over that well.

I've read a much better Joker story that might be just as controversial among fanboys called "Going Sane," by JM Dematteis. The art style is somewhat similar to Cowans but it's one of those good, not really known Joker stories.

Jim Lee is pretty good, but he's not really the best or most definitive Batman artist. And having seen that page posted here and just reading the trade The Question: Zen and Violence, Cowan's a good artist. Probably not the greatest that ever lived but who is?

[Captain Jim]

From what I've read here, I think most of the people who say they don't like this story are simply opposed to the idea of a new Joker origin--period. From the very beginning, they made up their minds that they wouldn't like it. So it really didn't make any difference if the story was actually good or not. Generally, this was motivated by a misguided loyalty to The Killing Joke--a story which never purported to be a definitive origin, yet has been accepted as such by much of fandom.

[Nefarius]

From what I've read here, I think most of the people who say they don't like this story are simply opposed to the idea of a new Joker origin--period. From the very beginning, they made up their minds that they wouldn't like it. So it really didn't make any difference if the story was actually good or not. Generally, this was motivated by a misguided loyalty to The Killing Joke--a story which never purported to be a definitive origin, yet has been accepted as such by much of fandom.

I agree Captain Jim.The story isn't that bad as people represent it.To be fair,some of Batman's decisions and actions in this story are a little bit out of character(i mean,he set up Jack to be killed,for me that's out of character).But i enjoy many elements from this new origin of Joker.Well,we must see the last part of this story to make a complete judgment over this new origin.

[Captain Jim]

To be fair,some of Batman's decisions and actions in this story are a little bit out of character(i mean,he set up Jack to be killed,for me that's out of character).

That bothered me too. But this is Batman at the very beginning of his career, before he had everything all sorted out. At least, that's how I rationalized it. But I think that should come back to bother him later on.

[Ramiel]

I don't mean necessarily a big story, but one that is hyped up as much. This story was hyped up by DC to be The Joker's origin. He is the most popular villain in one of DC's most popular character's books. From what I've read here, Cowans art isn't going over as well as someone like say, Brian Bolland, or Jim Lee.

If this had just been a story without all the hype in Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight, people would probably be less critical of it. But like I said, a new book, with Batman, with the glossy presentation, all the hype around revealing the Jokers origin and DC goes with an art style, that apparantly from the posters here, isn't going over that well.

I've read a much better Joker story that might be just as controversial among fanboys called "Going Sane," by JM Dematteis. The art style is somewhat similar to Cowans but it's one of those good, not really known Joker stories.

Well, I don't know, I still personally think that as long as the art is good it shouldn't really matter how the story is perceived, but I mean, to each his own.