Amusing Story About Bop/Josh

[Gail Simone]

Okay, so there's some name-dropping in this story. Can't be helped.

At the Armageddon convention, they had a pub-type thing where the guests could get lunch. I wanted to talk to kphoebe, but we sort of got sat where the handlers put us, and we were having a nice chat, my husband, myself, I think Nicola was there, and Kphoebe and her friend Jeff, and Bruce Timm came and sat down.

Now, I love Bruce, we spent a lot of time together, his family and mine, on this trip, but I couldn't hear everything he was saying (it was loud) so some of this is paraphrased by my husband.

Anyway, we got on the topic of how sometimes it's necessary to write things you KNOW the loyal, hardcore readers will hate, in order to make a bigger event later in the story, and we were tossing out examples where people, loyal loyal readers and viewers, had been furious.

And I mentioned the Josh thing, that a ton of readers loved Josh, but some, very nice, intelligent people, thought I had personally ruined Huntress forever by having her sleep with him. I really didn't expect anyone at the table to know what I was talking about, even though I knew Bruce followed BOP pretty closely. But suddenly everyone was talking about Josh, and again, I was struck by how odd it is that this character struck such a chord. Now, here's the first funny thing...at that table, though I didn't realize it, was a huge Josh FAN and a huge Josh HATER. Kphoebe, one of my favorite comics commentators, had actually written a long piece about how when she got to that part of the story, she threw her Bop trade at the wall.

What I DIDN'T know was that Bruce LOVED that bit. He said it was a Bop high point. What I REALLY didn't know is what he said next.

"I liked that bit so much we completely stole it for an episode of JLU."

Now, this made my ears perk up, because I'm such a fan of that show, but I had no idea a Bop riff had been stuck in JLU, other than the episode I wrote. It turns out that there's some scene with, I think, Hawkgirl and Hawkman, where they sleep together, that was lifted directly from the Bop episode.

Now, I'm sorry, but that slays me. First, that THAT contentious scene got used, and in the best comics cartoon series ever, no less. It's flattering and funny at the same time.

Bruce said they got the same exact reaction, a mix of 'RIGHT ON!' and 'HOW COULD YOU, YOU AWFUL SCUMBAGS?'

He said it was one of the biggest reactions to any scene in the entire series, with the positive and negative being utterly polarized.

I find that hilarious.

What is the DEAL with JOSH?

He was only supposed to be on three pages!

Gail

PS. The editor at the time of most of the Josh stuff, she agreed with Kphoebe and did not care for Josh at ALL, and did not understand his appeal, but is a very smart lady and knew the readers were asking for more of him.

JOSH IS TAKING OVER THE WORLD!

[GCom]

I miss you on BoP. On a few levels.

You are right about story structure where you sometimes have to introduce an elements that will later enhance another element/storyline. Gotta have a low point to counter a high. If everything was all hunky-dorey all teh time in books, why would we read them?


With Tolerance For Josh, Who Was Just A Toy...

GCom

[Alan Lynch]

Anyway, we got on the topic of how sometimes it's necessary to write things you KNOW the loyal, hardcore readers will hate, in order to make a bigger event later in the story, and we were tossing out examples where people, loyal loyal readers and viewers, had been furious.
Agree 100%.

And I was never that bothered by the Josh thing that much; never understood how it was so polarising. It's not like Huntress hasn't had one-night stands before, right?

[KevinTBrown]

Agree 100%.

And I was never that bothered by the Josh thing that much; never understood how it was so polarising. It's not like Huntress hasn't had one-night stands before, right?

I think it's her Catholic upbringing that pretty much polarized people. (IMO.)

But if she is/was anything like the Catholic girls I knew, it made perfect sense. ;)

[DungeonmasterJim]

What is the DEAL with JOSH?


The idiot scored the hot chick. It's one of the all-time best fantasies where the little guy's dreams come true. What's NOT to love?


DM Jim

[TCJohnson]

Agree 100%.

And I was never that bothered by the Josh thing that much; never understood how it was so polarising. It's not like Huntress hasn't had one-night stands before, right?

I think it was because Josh was such a jerk to her before they slept together.

And I wish Gail would stop dropping Josh's name!

[Michael P]

Agree 100%.

And I was never that bothered by the Josh thing that much; never understood how it was so polarising. It's not like Huntress hasn't had one-night stands before, right?

Huntress is to Gwen Stacy as Josh is to the Green Goblin.

[Tobias March]

Huntress is to Gwen Stacy as Josh is to the Green Goblin.

Ewwww...you just ruined BoP for me.

[Tad Sivana]

Why Josh?
Well, why Snapper Carr, Rick Jones, Etta Candy?
It's great to see a 'normal' person suddenly dipped into SuperWorld!
Josh dipped deeper than most.

[Linkara]

While I could harp about how I was a little miffed about the Josh thing, I'm more miffed by the fact that KPhoebe not only got to have dinner with you and Nicola Scott, but Bruce Timm, as well! :eek:

Dang it, Gail, come up to a Minnesota convention!

[Michael P]

Why Josh?
Well, why Snapper Carr, Rick Jones, Etta Candy?
It's great to see a 'normal' person suddenly dipped into SuperWorld!
Josh dipped deeper than most.

Although he thankfully didn't double-dip.

[Lester C.]

I will say it before and I will say it again. Josh Creote and Savant deserve their own monthly book. It should be a weekly like Superman and Spider-man.

[The Xenos]

BAAAAAAAAW. You ruined Birds of Prey! *Throws message board at wall!*

Eh. It was fun, but I stll think Helena deserves better. Than again, it doesn't look like she and Question have a chance now. Damn. Well, I mean Vic/Charlie. As.. interesting as Renee would be, she already has Kate.

Really, I'm still sad that the whole Huntress / Question thing with Rucka fell through. Not sure who else is there for Helena.

[wishlish]

I think it was because Josh was such a jerk to her before they slept together.



And women NEVER sleep with jerks for their own reasons, right?

(Loved the scene. Thought it was pretty awesome.)

Just had a weird thought, actually.

What would everyone had thought if Josh had slept with Babs instead of Huntress?

[Lester C.]

Hey how old do you guys think Josh is? I put him in around 19 20.

[Michael P]

Hey how old do you guys think Josh is? I put him in around 19 20.

28 going on 19.

[KPhoebe]

Agree 100%.

And I was never that bothered by the Josh thing that much; never understood how it was so polarising. It's not like Huntress hasn't had one-night stands before, right?

With me it wasn't that she slept with him or that she had a one-night stand - I am totally cool with either of those as fitting Helena's characterisation at the time. My problem was that he asked her to sleep with him several times in a few pages and she turned him down every time, including the last we saw of him before the in-bed reveal.

It wasn't even "Oh... maybe." It was "No! No! No! Stop BUGGING ME, NO!" And then sex. I really don't like the "No means yes" stereotype, or the "Persistence from the horrible little man eventually gets the sexy woman" stereotype, and I feel that both were (unconsciously!) referenced here for the sake of a shock reveal.

Josh grew on me, and I'm glad that was a turning point for Helena, but I still don't like that set of pages.

[tangentman]

KPhoebe nailed it. The "idiot gets the hot chick" is a tired convention in films, TV, and, apparently, comic books. Frankly, Gail fans expect fewer banal cliches. Sorry, Gail--you just spoiled us so much we hold you to an Olympian standard! :)

If it helps, I cheered when Huntress essentially told Josh he was the worst lay EVER. Redeemed the pages KPhoebe so despises, imo.

[Night Swordsman]

This thread is just dying for the comparison,so here it goes:

Do you got a lil Josh in you? (now lift up a leg) :rolleyes:


And yes,i know Tommy will have lots of fun with this one.

[Cam63]

Okay, so there's some name-dropping in this story. Can't be helped.

At the Armageddon convention, they had a pub-type thing where the guests could get lunch. I wanted to talk to kphoebe, but we sort of got sat where the handlers put us, and we were having a nice chat, my husband, myself, I think Nicola was there, and Kphoebe and her friend Jeff, and Bruce Timm came and sat down.

Now, I love Bruce, we spent a lot of time together, his family and mine, on this trip, but I couldn't hear everything he was saying (it was loud) so some of this is paraphrased by my husband.

Anyway, we got on the topic of how sometimes it's necessary to write things you KNOW the loyal, hardcore readers will hate, in order to make a bigger event later in the story, and we were tossing out examples where people, loyal loyal readers and viewers, had been furious.

And I mentioned the Josh thing, that a ton of readers loved Josh, but some, very nice, intelligent people, thought I had personally ruined Huntress forever by having her sleep with him. I really didn't expect anyone at the table to know what I was talking about, even though I knew Bruce followed BOP pretty closely. But suddenly everyone was talking about Josh, and again, I was struck by how odd it is that this character struck such a chord. Now, here's the first funny thing...at that table, though I didn't realize it, was a huge Josh FAN and a huge Josh HATER. Kphoebe, one of my favorite comics commentators, had actually written a long piece about how when she got to that part of the story, she threw her Bop trade at the wall.

What I DIDN'T know was that Bruce LOVED that bit. He said it was a Bop high point. What I REALLY didn't know is what he said next.

"I liked that bit so much we completely stole it for an episode of JLU."

Now, this made my ears perk up, because I'm such a fan of that show, but I had no idea a Bop riff had been stuck in JLU, other than the episode I wrote. It turns out that there's some scene with, I think, Hawkgirl and Hawkman, where they sleep together, that was lifted directly from the Bop episode.

Now, I'm sorry, but that slays me. First, that THAT contentious scene got used, and in the best comics cartoon series ever, no less. It's flattering and funny at the same time.

Bruce said they got the same exact reaction, a mix of 'RIGHT ON!' and 'HOW COULD YOU, YOU AWFUL SCUMBAGS?'

He said it was one of the biggest reactions to any scene in the entire series, with the positive and negative being utterly polarized.

I find that hilarious.

What is the DEAL with JOSH?

He was only supposed to be on three pages!

Gail

PS. The editor at the time of most of the Josh stuff, she agreed with Kphoebe and did not care for Josh at ALL, and did not understand his appeal, but is a very smart lady and knew the readers were asking for more of him.

JOSH IS TAKING OVER THE WORLD!

Those vowel manglin' bastards had a pub !?

[Johnny_Luck]

What irks me much more than the Josh thing(which I agreed that it was done well) is that people call huntress slutty or the like to this day, even though shes a mid to late 20 something female whose only had sex with 3 males in what a good 5 or 6 year comic book period(at least).

Normally girls who aren't in relationships and are that age do it more often than that and aren't called such silly and stupid things. Its normal to have a healthy sexual experience every now and again. Would people prefer if it was re-conned that no hero will ever have sex?


If it helps, I cheered when Huntress essentially told Josh he was the worst lay EVER. Redeemed the pages KPhoebe so despises, imo.

I disagree with this part completely. I think this was the worst written thing about the whole Josh incident and came off as complete and utter Bitchyness from Helena to the point where it seemed like she might be saying see here the geek got me but it will never really happen, because people who look like me are above people like you, him.

[tangentman]

I disagree with this part completely. I think this was the worst written thing about the whole Josh incident and came off as complete and utter Bitchyness from Helena to the point where it seemed like she might be saying see here the geek got me but it will never really happen, because people who look like me are above people like you, him.


Helena is above Josh. Period. What I liked about Huntress laying into Josh was the way she shut him the fuck up. Josh stands out in BoP as one of those characters who unleashes a flood of stupidity every time he opens his mouth. He brought the highly deserved tongue-lashing on himself with the non-stop stream of adolescent remarks.

Where you saw "bitch", I saw a "woman pushed well past reasonable bounds of tolerance".

[Johnny_Luck]

Helena is above Josh. Period. What I liked about Huntress laying into Josh was the way she shut him the fuck up. Josh stands out in BoP as one of those characters who unleashes a flood of stupidity every time he opens his mouth. He brought the highly deserved tongue-lashing on himself with the non-stop stream of adolescent remarks.

Where you saw "bitch", I saw a "woman pushed well past reasonable bounds of tolerance".

I don't think she should have ended up with Josh(and again though it didn't seem like it was a lash out at just him), but he's no worse off than Roy is as a person and yet lady after lady goes into his bedroom and really doesn't complain when he breaks their heart/and or just moves on.

Josh wasn't as jerkish as some people make him out to be. Maybe immature or unaware of how to actually handle the situation, but honestly would any male know what to do in front of someone like her without having any brain fart issues.

what it boils down to is to say Helena is above Josh or people like Josh is to say that actors are above everyday people, or Jessica simpson is above normal sized women. Just because of what they do or what they look like.

The Sleeping with Josh thing accomplished a couple of different things IMO.

1. It Made some groups of fans like her more because instead of having sex with men like someone her age would normally do shes gone on a over year and a half spree of abstinence. Somehow her not being near men makes her a much better and stronger person in their view.

2. Its basically given writers a reason to keep her more action oriented on the title, which is a good thing, because while I wouldn't mind seeing her in a relationship I def don't want a male on the birds team.

3. Depending on how you read it, could easily been a way of getting frustration out for Gail. It could be taken that Helena sleeping with Josh and the Way Helena bitched at him after it was a way to get fanboys to shut up or back off on their ways.

Like the idea that in order for someone who looks that good, who is that good a person and does the superhero thing to be with someone whose your average joe, they would have to hit rock bottom and basically only want to use you as a way to realize they want more. So boys reading comics quit your daydreaming and get real cause its never going to happen and if it does it be a one time fluke.

[tangentman]

Where my opinion deviates from yours is that I don't consider Josh "average"--I consider him "sub-par". If Helena slept with Jimmy Olsen, Snapper Carr, Mike Shorr, Ed Indelicato, or similar characters, I could deal with it. Those men consistently showed basic social skills, competence, and a respectable degree of character. Even if they aren't The Hotness on a scale of Dick Grayson or Roy Harper, I could see Helena seeing something of worth in each man.

I simply don't see that quality of character in Josh. Josh runs on with diarrhea of the mouth because he is highly uncomfortable with himself. Despite his sad attempts at male swagger, he is probably severely clueless about the sexual cues between men and women. He completely misses the nuances that would allow him to reasonably bed Helena without her being drunk, nursing a headwound from a fight, or simply at rock bottom in her life.

This isn't about Huntress 'lowering herself by being with an average guy'. It's about Helena experiencing a momentary lapse of sanity by sleeping with a guy who is less than average. Bottom line--Josh was unworthy.

[AllisterH]

I liked Josh.

Josh, to me, striked me as how a guy would act if he was actually around a superstar.

remember, even though Huntress isn't on say the Superman level of popularity, she's probably higher on the scale than even Diana Prince.

She's a freaking superhero and I can't see how a guy wouldn't be intimidated by that somewhat.

He basically said things that probably most men were thinking.

I respect him for that...

[beetlebum]

remember, even though Huntress isn't on say the Superman level of popularity, she's probably higher on the scale than even Diana Prince.



Higher on the scale than Diana Prince ? I dunno about that. I mean, if Superman is homecoming king, Diana is definitely the queen. Diana Prince (lame alter ego) may have down played her appearance to blend in more, but Diana possess the beauty of Aphrodite. In other words, she's DC's hottest chick, and every red blooded bloke and girl who swings that way wants her. (I know I do).:D

[AllisterH]

Higher on the scale than Diana Prince ? I dunno about that. I mean, if Superman is homecoming king, Diana is definitely the queen. Diana Prince (lame alter ego) may have down played her appearance to blend in more, but Diana possess the beauty of Aphrodite. In other words, she's DC's hottest chick, and every red blooded bloke and girl who swings that way wants her. (I know I do).:D

Argh

My mistake....I meant, the former Lady Diana. At the height of the Lady Di craze, I betcha even Huntress had more press.

Seriously, I always wanted to know what the Enquirer looks like in the DCU/MU. I mean, I can see Huntress having more websites and forums dedicated to her than say Angelina Jolie.

Think about it, why the hell would people be interested in say Paris Hilton when they can read the gossip about Green Arrow?

[beetlebum]

Argh

My mistake....I meant, the former Lady Diana. At the height of the Lady Di craze, I betcha even Huntress had more press.

Seriously, I always wanted to know what the Enquirer looks like in the DCU/MU. I mean, I can see Huntress having more websites and forums dedicated to her than say Angelina Jolie.

Think about it, why the hell would people be interested in say Paris Hilton when they can read the gossip about Green Arrow?

Ah I get what you're saying. I do remember an episode of Angel where he comes across a geek who says that there are websites devoted to him. Huntress could be the same way. And yeah it would be kinda cool to see news papers from the DC and Marvel universe, instead of the snippets I saw in Civil War Frontline, Identity Crisis and that what if Superman were British graphic novel.

I'd especially love it if the hyperbole prone British press were to do stories about her. The paparazzi would have a hard time stalking her though. Unless of course, they felt an arrow shoved up their ass was worth $500 dollars. :D

http://www.mommiescamelot.com/forum/images/smilies/11_13_6.gifhttp://www.mommiescamelot.com/forum/images/smilies/brancard.gif

[Tobias March]

[QUOTE=beetlebum;5787442] And yeah it would be kinda cool to see news papers in the DC and Marvel universe, instead of the snippets I saw in Civil War Frontline, Identity Crisis and that what if Superman were British graphic novel.

I'd especially love it if the hyperbole prone British press were to do stories about her. The paparazzi would have a hard time stalking her though. Unless of course, they felt an arrow shoved up their ass was worth $500 dollars.



Well apparently Marvel character get to read their own adventures in comic form :) See Dan Slott's revival of this idea in She-Hulk.

[beetlebum]

I meant "from". :o See how tired I am? I really need to proof read before posting.

Although I am a DC zombie, I've always liked how self aware and self deprecating Marvel's characters were.

But more importantly, will $500 be worth it when you have an arrow shoved up your ass?:D

[Johnny_Luck]

I simply don't see that quality of character in Josh. Josh runs on with diarrhea of the mouth because he is highly uncomfortable with himself. Despite his sad attempts at male swagger, he is probably severely clueless about the sexual cues between men and women. He completely misses the nuances that would allow him to reasonably bed Helena without her being drunk, nursing a headwound from a fight, or simply at rock bottom in her life.

This isn't about Huntress 'lowering herself by being with an average guy'. It's about Helena experiencing a momentary lapse of sanity by sleeping with a guy who is less than average. Bottom line--Josh was unworthy.

Josh is your average Guy. Period. End of Story.

The Above comes across as I didn't like that the guy got the girl, not being egotistical about who is he and showing off way too much confidence in himself. He was actually saying stuff and acting like a normal man would given they be thrown in that situation. He was clueless about woman and what they need just like every man yet got the girl anyways and it bugs me.

Thus because he wasn't a hero who usually produces that vibe that arrogance about who they are he is automatically below her.

I get that women like a man with confidence but just because he doesn't scream it doesn't mean he's a lesser person for it.


I liked Josh.

Josh, to me, striked me as how a guy would act if he was actually around a superstar.

remember, even though Huntress isn't on say the Superman level of popularity, she's probably higher on the scale than even Diana Prince.

She's a freaking superhero and I can't see how a guy wouldn't be intimidated by that somewhat.

He basically said things that probably most men were thinking.

I respect him for that...

Exactly what I was trying to get across, thank you.

[NickThompson]

I likes Josh, he was fun.



I think that characters who are jerks but not in a cool way will automatically get people disliking them because they are jerks. Just seems to me like whenever a new uncool jerk character is created, there quickly comes a bunch of people wishing they would die. I think some people just dislike reading about uncool jerks :)

Obviously not everyone who dislikes Josh.

[Lester C.]

Here is the truth about why Huntress had to sleep with Josh. Helena, by other writers, had been written as a desperate unstable woman who would and did hop into bed with pretty much anybody. Arsenal, Question, Night wing hell she even had a flirtatious relationship with Tim Drake in the early issues of Robin.

When Gail had Helena sleep with Josh the character, much like Black Canary in Gail's first story arc, hit rock bottom and was forced to comfort the person they had become. Once Helena did this, like Dinah, she was able to rebuild herself into a strong woman in every sense of the word. As a reader it was a great pleasure to watch this maturation take place.

All that said Helena didn't have to tell Josh what a shitty lover he was and how it took sleeping with him to hit rock bottom. In my mind after the that issue poor Josh killed himself as he was never seen again.

[ChthonicSpirit]

Here is the truth about why Huntress had to sleep with Josh. Helena, by other writers, had been written as a desperate unstable woman who would and did hop into bed with pretty much anybody. Arsenal, Question, Nightwing hell she even had a flirtatious relationship with Tim Drake in the early issues of Robin.

When Gail had Helena sleep with Josh the character, much like Black Canary in Gail's first story arc, hit rock bottom and was forced to comfort the person they had become. Once Helena did this, like Dinah, she was able to rebuild herself into a strong woman in every sense of the word. As a reader it was a great pleasure to watch this maturation take place.

All that said Helena didn't have to tell Josh what a shitty lover he was and how it took sleeping with him to hit rock bottom. In my mind after the that issue poor Josh killed himself as he was never seen again.

Here's the thing - In each of those cases, I could see Helena acting the way she did. Nightwing and the Question she had actual, genuine relationships with. Aresenal happened off panel (idiotically, IMHO) but still, not before she had subbed as field leader for his team for a while, giving her ample chance to get to know him.

Josh? Date, which he blackmailed her into and annoyed her during the course of, and then sex. Huh?

I have to say, it didn't actually annoy me that much the first time I read it - I thought it was just a tongue in cheek way to end the issue - but if we're going to seriously analyze it I'm going to have to say no, it just doesn't make sense.

[Lester C.]

Here's the thing - In each of those cases, I could see Helena acting the way she did. Nightwing and the Question she had actual, genuine relationships with. Aresenal happened off panel (idiotically, IMHO) but still, not before she had subbed as field leader for his team for a while, giving her ample chance to get to know him.

Josh? Date, which he blackmailed her into and annoyed her during the course of, and then sex. Huh?

I have to say, it didn't actually annoy me that much the first time I read it - I thought it was just a tongue in cheek way to end the issue - but if we're going to seriously analyze it I'm going to have to say no, it just doesn't make sense.

You can't call a one night stand with Nightwing a relationship. Also technically her relationship with the Question was a one night stand as Vic broke it off the next day after Helena murdered her father.

Here is a question about Huntress. Given her history of killing her opponents, often in a premeditated fashion, why didn't any of the heroes put her in jail? Also what ever happen to the her being in Checkmate as a spy for Batman? I don't think it was ever explained why she was pulled out of that organization before joining BOP.

[ChthonicSpirit]

You can't call a one night stand with Nightwing a relationship. Also technically her relationship with the Question was a one night stand as Vic broke it off the next day after Helena murdered her father.

I mean nonsexual relationships, before/leading up to their romantic entanglements.

Here is a question about Huntress. Given her history of killing her opponents, often in a premeditated fashion, why didn't any of the heroes put her in jail? Also what ever happen to the her being in Checkmate as a spy for Batman? I don't think it was ever explained why she was pulled out of that organization before joining BOP.

I dunno. Why hasn't Bats arrested Catwoman for shooting Black Mask?

I remember hearing Rucka wanted Helena for his Checkmate series, so he could continue that plot thread, but Gail had a better claim on her, so it was just dropped.

[Lester C.]

I mean nonsexual relationships, before/leading up to their romantic entanglements.



I dunno. Why hasn't Bats arrested Catwoman for shooting Black Mask?

I remember hearing Rucka wanted Helena for his Checkmate series, so he could continue that plot thread, but Gail had a better claim on her, so it was just dropped.

1. The Checkmate series was launch years after the story arc putting Helena in Checkmate. Also the story that put her in Checkmate was written by Scott Beaty not Greg Rucka. You could be write but I doubt it because Gail said she would always explain the missing arc and she never did.

2. I will give you that Helena had a prior relationship to Question, but she just hopped into the sack with Arsenal and Nightwing. Gail rebuilding her after tearing her down a bit though put a stop to the tramp aspect of the character so as a fan I think you should be glad she slept with Josh.

[ChthonicSpirit]

Also the story that put her in Checkmate was written by Scott Beaty not Greg Rucka.

You sure about that?

I will give you that Helena had a prior relationship to Question, but she just hopped into the sack with Arsenal and Nightwing. Gail rebuilding her after tearing her down a bit though put a stop to the tramp aspect of the character so as a fan I think you should be glad she slept with Josh.

She and Nightwing wold working together at the time of their one-nighter. I'm not saying they didn't take things quickly, but they made an effort to get to know each other before.

Arsenal - see, we don't actually know what happened there, because it was never shown.

And I'm neither glad nor particularly annoyed that Gal made Huntress sleep with Josh. I just think it didn't make much sense.

[Corrina]

All that said Helena didn't have to tell Josh what a shitty lover he was and how it took sleeping with him to hit rock bottom. In my mind after the that issue poor Josh killed himself as he was never seen again.

Yes, she did. Anything less, and Josh would never leave her alone. Never.

Hmm...I do kinda agree with the point that Helena's decision to sleep with Josh was never shown, just the aftermath. Perhaps if that had been on-screen, it might have alleviated some of the complaints. Perhaps not. But a valid point.

Note: Scott Beatty did write the short arc in which Huntress joins Checkmate. I know that was an editorial mandate. It could certainly be possible that Rucka wanted to use that story as a basis to take Huntress into Checkmate but that BoP had a better claim on the character.

[KPhoebe]

Josh is your average Guy. Period. End of Story.

The Above comes across as I didn't like that the guy got the girl, not being egotistical about who is he and showing off way too much confidence in himself. He was actually saying stuff and acting like a normal man would given they be thrown in that situation. He was clueless about woman and what they need just like every man yet got the girl anyways and it bugs me.

Thus because he wasn't a hero who usually produces that vibe that arrogance about who they are he is automatically below her.

I get that women like a man with confidence but just because he doesn't scream it doesn't mean he's a lesser person for it.

Josh was a lesser person not because he's not a superhero, but because he repeatedly hit on a woman and suggested that they have sex in the face of her firm instructions to stop.

Are you seriously suggesting that the "Average Guy" or "normal man", when faced with a beautiful, famous woman, would verbally harrass her and that we ought to have sympathy for Josh just doing what any guy would do? Seriously?

(And I have no idea what you're talking about with the "lack of confidence". Hitting on someone in the face of their continued orders to stop is incredibly arrogant.)

[Batman1983]

I started BoP around Villians United because I loved Deadshot and VU and up till then was only buying 4-6 comics a month (half of them Marvel). So obviously I missed this (or probably did). I do need to get caught up on the BoP trades just as soon as I buy Fables 2-8 (I have 1-9) and a couple other things.

[tangentman]

Exactly, KPhoebe. Average men in and outside fiction show capacities for adult conversation without making total asses of themselves, whether or not they actually expect to win over the women in question. If we're talking about how "average men" would behave in Josh' position, realistically, they'd probably downplay their attraction to women like Helena out of intimidation or--gasp--even respectd. The "Average Men" I know show an astronomically greater amount of common sense than Josh.

Comparing Josh with "Average Men" only insults such men. Josh was an incessantly buzzing gnat that desperately needed swatting.

[The Xenos]

Man, I really wish DC had Greg and Gail work together more on Huntress. I still wish they had done something with her and Vic. Maybe her and Checkmate too. Though that one book doesn't contradict another is I guess a task in itself at DC, nevermind have a character appear across two.

Also, Helena never slept with Roy. In fact, I don't ever remember Winick ever writing Outsiders. Or Batman. -plugs up ears- La la la la la. :D

[The Xenos]

Man, I really wish DC had Greg and Gail work together more on Huntress. I still wish they had done something with her and Vic. Maybe her and Checkmate too. Though that one book doesn't contradict another is I guess a task in itself at DC, nevermind have a character appear across two.

Also, Helena never slept with Roy. In fact, I don't ever remember Winick ever writing Outsiders. Or Batman. -plugs up ears- La la la la la. :D

[Lester C.]

Man, I really wish DC had Greg and Gail work together more on Huntress. I still wish they had done something with her and Vic. Maybe her and Checkmate too. Though that one book doesn't contradict another is I guess a task in itself at DC, nevermind have a character appear across two.

Also, Helena never slept with Roy. In fact, I don't ever remember Winick ever writing Outsiders. Or Batman. -plugs up ears- La la la la la. :D

Man, I really wish DC had Greg and Gail work together more on Huntress. I still wish they had done something with her and Vic. Maybe her and Checkmate too. Though that one book doesn't contradict another is I guess a task in itself at DC, nevermind have a character appear across two.

Also, Helena never slept with Roy. In fact, I don't ever remember Winick ever writing Outsiders. Or Batman. -plugs up ears- La la la la la. :D

If you tell yourself that a third time you might actually believe it.;)

[Lester C.]

Josh was a lesser person not because he's not a superhero, but because he repeatedly hit on a woman and suggested that they have sex in the face of her firm instructions to stop.

Are you seriously suggesting that the "Average Guy" or "normal man", when faced with a beautiful, famous woman, would verbally harrass her and that we ought to have sympathy for Josh just doing what any guy would do? Seriously?

(And I have no idea what you're talking about with the "lack of confidence". Hitting on someone in the face of their continued orders to stop is incredibly arrogant.)

The average man Josh's age becomes an asshole when trying trying to get laid. Let's be honest about that. They will purchase alcohol, in copious amounts, tell them anything they think women want to hear if it means getting laid, so yes Josh is an average man which isn't a good thing to be sometimes.

[The Xenos]

Fine.

Also, Helena never slept with Roy. In fact, I don't ever remember Winick ever writing Outsiders. Or Batman. -plugs up ears- La la la la la. :D

There now Beetlejuice will show up and make it true.

[AllisterH]

Josh? Date, which he blackmailed her into and annoyed her during the course of, and then sex. Huh?



Oh wait. You mean how Huntress got a *civilian* involved because she needed information. How's that blackmail?

Personally, I never saw the "No means No" angle that people seem to be going for. At no time in their date was Huntress prevented from leaving. At no time was Huntress in physical danger. At no time was Huntress NOT in entire control of the situation. Hell, she actually put him in physical danger during their date.

Look people, Huntress is a bloody superheroine. Half Drunk, tied with one hand behind her and blindfolded, who here doesn't think Huntress could kick Josh's ass?

So how is their date equivalent to the situation where the Big Man On Campus is preying on the freshman girl? Which is what those who hate how the date ended up are saying....

To me, I saw the whole Josh/Huntress deal as a reversal of the BMOC/Freshman girl schtick common in real life. BMOC basically uses the girl to get what he wants and then pretty much dumps the girl horribly.

As an aside, exactly how *common* is it that the normal guy gets the girl? Reading some of those posts, I see some people mentioning this but I'm blanking on which comics have superheroines dating/married to regular guys. I can easily find the MJ/Spiderman or the Jay & Joan Garrick scenario but the reverse? She-hulk is the only one I know of but she-hulk just loves the cock.

Anyone actually believe this is "common"? Maybe somewhat common in anime/manga but there are just as many (if not more) anime/manga where it is the usual situation of normal girl dating the "not-so" normal guy.

In Western fantasy though? Did the normal guy (Xander and Riley?) get with Buffy? Does Honor Harrington marry normal Joe Blow citizen? Did Xena or Gabrielle even think of getting together with Jokster?

[Magneto_X]

The average man Josh's age becomes an asshole when trying trying to get laid. Let's be honest about that. They will purchase alcohol, in copious amounts, tell them anything they think women want to hear if it means getting laid, so yes Josh is an average man which isn't a good thing to be sometimes.

I disagree.

Not all guys are womanisers like Josh is. Neither myself or any of my friends are at any rate.

If anything it's intimidating talking to hot girls so I try to downplay being arrogant to "impress" them or get them drunk to take advantage of their vulnerable state (the girls who are my type would hate that behavior, anyway).

Allister:

Riley doesn't count. He was never normal in the first place becing an Iniative soldier and all. Parker would be a better example.

[beetlebum]

Allister:

Riley doesn't count. He was never normal in the first place becing an Iniative soldier and all. Parker would be a better example.

Yep, Parker was douche bag who manipulated women in order to bed them. Riley did punch him, which was totally deserved. Buffy did moon over him, which was roll your eyes worthy but understandable (what girl hasn't fallen for the wrong guy?) http://www.mommiesnbabies.com/forums/images/smilies/gross.gif But Buffy did get her revenge in Beer Bad. :evilsmile

[AllisterH]

I disagree.

Not all guys are womanisers like Josh is. Neither myself or any of my friends are at any rate.

<snip>

Riley doesn't count. He was never normal in the first place becing an Iniative soldier and all. Parker would be a better example.

*LOL*

JOSH is a womanizer? I beleive you use that word but you don't know what it actually means. If that's your idea of a womanizer, you need to watch more old school (Roger Moore/Sean Connery) James Bond movies :D

As for Riley, er, post Initative, the whole point was how Riley and Buffy couldn't connect because of his normality.

Personally, I always find it weird that people hate Josh more than say Savant. Savant fucking BROKE BC legs and the only reason he's on the side of the angels is because BC beat him up.

Yet I've seen more people thinking that Savant is a better match for Helena than Josh.

[LtMarvel]

Ok. Help me out here. I've never read the BoP Josh comics; I have seen all of JLU. What episode of JLU did Timm refer to?

[BnL]

Ancient History.

[Johnny_Luck]

I disagree.

Not all guys are womanisers like Josh is. Neither myself or any of my friends are at any rate.

If anything it's intimidating talking to hot girls so I try to downplay being arrogant to "impress" them or get them drunk to take advantage of their vulnerable state (the girls who are my type would hate that behavior, anyway).

Allister:

Riley doesn't count. He was never normal in the first place becing an Iniative soldier and all. Parker would be a better example.

1. Josh is hardly a womanizer, not even close actually.
2. I said average guy, I definately not like that and its cool you and your friends aren't either, but if you are truthful with yourself you'll notice most guys are closer to Josh than your admitting here.
3. Riley does count for the very good reason Allister pointed out and its the same reason Buffy seemed to never be interested in Xander, they were too Normal guy for her.

[darkwatcher]

Anyone like to see Josh make a cameo in Wonder Woman ?, might be fun.

Might also be very painful.

I've been a fan of Helena for a long time but I wasn't offended by the one night stand. Shocked yes, offended no.

And I thought the way she disabused him of any notion it might happen again was perfect.

[Magneto_X]

*LOL*

JOSH is a womanizer? I beleive you use that word but you don't know what it actually means. If that's your idea of a womanizer, you need to watch more old school (Roger Moore/Sean Connery) James Bond movies :D

As for Riley, er, post Initative, the whole point was how Riley and Buffy couldn't connect because of his normality.

Personally, I always find it weird that people hate Josh more than say Savant. Savant fucking BROKE BC legs and the only reason he's on the side of the angels is because BC beat him up.

Yet I've seen more people thinking that Savant is a better match for Helena than Josh.

Womaniser was the wrong word. I meant that Josh is an asshole.

Savant was 1) insane, 2) more likable then Josh and 3) treated Dinah with more respect then Josh did with Helena. Sure he's screwed up but his heart is in the right place --- it's how he go around doing things that make him a dick.

[Corrina]

How is Savant's heart in the right place? He started off as a blackmailer, then he tortured Canary.

It's only when he got the snot beat out of him in prison that he started to even develop empathy. And then he went and tossed people out of windows when he tried to go straight.

Meanwhile, Josh is a well-meaning average guy with suffers from a complete lack of social skills. And I say well meaning because he was willing to do risky things to help and seemed to have no malice in him. He was just annoying as hell.

Not really up there with Savant in the evil department.

Now, if you'd said Creote, maybe. Creote did what he did because he loves Savant. Doesn't quite excuse the whole blackmailing/torturing thing but it's a better motivation than money. And he seems to be a lot more mentally stable and able to change.

[Magneto_X]

1. Josh is hardly a womanizer, not even close actually.

I used the wrong word.


2. I said average guy, I definately not like that and its cool you and your friends aren't either, but if you are truthful with yourself you'll notice most guys are closer to Josh than your admitting here.

Sure we may *think* like that (women can be incredibly hot --- but it isn't *all* they are) but you'd be an absolute idiot to act that in the presence of a hot girl. That's the difference between Josh and average guys. You'll go furthur with treating them with respect then as a piece of meat.


3. Riley does count for the very good reason Allister pointed out and its the same reason Buffy seemed to never be interested in Xander, they were too Normal guy for her.

True. I'd say Xander is not Buffy's "type". She mostly likes bad boys with super-powers. Riley wasn't a bad boy but has powers via serum *and* was skilled enough to fight vamps much better then he was. Parker was just a bad boy that she got infatuated with. While Spike and Angel were all of that rolled into one package.

But that doesn't change the fact Riley was never average to begin with. He wasn't even an average *soldier* i.e. super soldier serum, hunting demons for the government etc.

[Magneto_X]

How is Savant's heart in the right place? He started off as a blackmailer, then he tortured Canary.

It's only when he got the snot beat out of him in prison that he started to even develop empathy. And then he went and tossed people out of windows when he tried to go straight.

Meanwhile, Josh is a well-meaning average guy with suffers from a complete lack of social skills. And I say well meaning because he was willing to do risky things to help and seemed to have no malice in him. He was just annoying as hell.

Not really up there with Savant in the evil department.

Now, if you'd said Creote, maybe. Creote did what he did because he loves Savant. Doesn't quite excuse the whole blackmailing/torturing thing but it's a better motivation than money. And he seems to be a lot more mentally stable and able to change.

It's been a while since I've read Savant's debut arc so I may be misremembering things.

He wants to be a super-hero only since he's insane he doesn't know when he's going overboard. He also only blackmailed criminals, IIRC.

Josh doesn't have malice but he's still a douchebag. Wasn't that the point of his character? He's got to be an awful person if Huntress' sleeping with him was "hitting rock bottom". I think he's close to Frank Castle, not really bad guy "evil".

Josh may be more mentally stable but that makes it worse for him. At least Savant has that excuse for his behavior. Whether it was naivity or ignorance Josh should have known better.

[Gail Simone]

I disagree.

Not all guys are womanisers like Josh is. Neither myself or any of my friends are at any rate.

If anything it's intimidating talking to hot girls so I try to downplay being arrogant to "impress" them or get them drunk to take advantage of their vulnerable state (the girls who are my type would hate that behavior, anyway).

Allister:

Riley doesn't count. He was never normal in the first place becing an Iniative soldier and all. Parker would be a better example.


But is Josh a womanizer, or just a loud mouth?

Gail

[Magneto_X]

But is Josh a womanizer, or just a loud mouth?

Gail

A loud mouth.

[tangentman]

I'm assuming most of have watched Daria at one point or another? Remember "Up Chuck"?

Josh = "Up Chuck" of the BoP. Is anyone here naive enough to consider Up Chuck an "average guy"? NOW do you all get it?

[Johnny_Luck]

That comparison is def a huge over exaggeration of how Josh was.

[tangentman]

That comparison is def a huge over exaggeration of how Josh was.

Bullshit! Like Up Chuck, Josh continually assaulted Helena's ears--and any standard of taste--with horrifically lame and skeezy come ons. Helena even called him out on the atrocious pick up lines. I wonder if you're not over-identifying with Josh a little too much...

[Cam63]

But is Josh a womanizer, or just a loud mouth?

Gail

Gentlemen never tell.