The second golden age of comics

[Stan-Lee1]

What has to happen for comic books to reach the same height of sales they had in the 1940-50’s(the golden age of comic books):confused: :confused: :confused: ?
Can it be done right now comics are not viewed like they are in countries like Japan, and personally I would to hate to see this media art form die. What made the Golden age so successful? How can it be repeated? And what can we the every day fanboys do to help it along? Or is it just impossible are comics going to die here? What do you think the future holds for electric comic books?

[stealthwise]

Well, the Golden Age seemed to succeed due to its close ties with the Second World War effort, basically serving as propaganda devices during a tumultuous time. There's also the question of cost and distribution, as they were cheap, disposable entertainment that was available everywhere. Public perception connected comics with children, but they seemed to be more readily accepted than they are by today's consumers.

So I would say cost and distribution are the biggest reasons that comics aren't selling anywhere near golden age levels.

[rick]

The second Golden Age of Comics already happened during the 1980's, when quality hit a high water mark and sales hit the biggest numbers that they saw in decades.

What will start the Third Golden Age?

A huge increase in both high quality new material, conbined with a new interest from the general public, just like the other two times.

[rick]

By the way "Stan", welcome to the boards.

[Reptisaurus!]

The second Golden Age of Comics already happened during the 1980's, when quality hit a high water mark


I think we're doin' better now, really. More people doing GOOD independent work, not TMNT rip-offs. And I basically think the Mainstream has been about the same quality from the fifties 'till now, with a few small peaks and valleys along the way.

Still, I miss Beanworld.

and sales hit the biggest numbers that they saw in decades.


If the publisher's information inside the books is any indicator, sales were better in the sixties. And I KNOW sales were better in the early nineties.


What has to happen for comic books to reach the same height of sales they had in the 1940-50’s(the golden age of comic books)


All I got is "we should become Japan." I dunno. 52 proved there was a market for weekly anthology books.

[rick]

I think we're doin' better now, really. More people doing GOOD independent work, not TMNT rip-offs. And I basically think the Mainstream has been about the same quality from the fifties 'till now, with a few small peaks and valleys along the way.

Still, I miss Beanworld.


Well there certainly was that glut of bad B&W comics in the very late 80’s, but you’re forgetting the wonder years of 1980-1986.

Eclipse, Fantagraphics, First, Warp, Pacific, Aardvark-Vanahiam, Comico and all the other really good publishers putting out dozens of great books.

Here’s a brief and far from complete list……..

Weirdo
Raw
Sabre
Ragamuffins
The Dark Knight Returns
Nexus
Love and Rockets
Ms Mystic
Jim
Watchmen
The Rocketeer
Lloyd Llewellyn
Flaming Carrot
normalman
Whisper
Fantastic Four (John Byrne)
Destroyer Duck
Journey
The Boulevard of Broken Dreams
Ms Tree
American Flagg
The Uncanny X-Men
Neil the Horse
Zot
Starslayer
Camelot 3000
Marvelman (Miracleman)
Airboy
Daredevil
Hate
Grimjack
Maus
Crossfire
Neat Stuff
Jon Sable
Scout
Mister Monster
Groo
Cerebus
Grendel
Ronin
Detectives Inc
Aztec Ace
Mage
Badger
Dreadstar

And of course, Beanworld.

There were dozens of great, original and truly classic books during that brief and wonderful period.


If the publisher's information inside the books is any indicator, sales were better in the sixties. And I KNOW sales were better in the early nineties.


Sales were better in the 60’s, but from the early 70’s on they had dropped sharply.

And you are not right about the 1990’s selling more comics.

With the exception of the Image crew, who did most definitely sell a bunch of comics, most of the other big sellers were one off gimmick books, like X-Men #1 or the first Robin cover with all the holograms.

And a million issues of one comic being sold just means one comic, not general sales.

With the combination of the exclusive distributor deals that wiped out all of Diamonds competition, plus the big two sucking up shelf space with a thousand different covers of each issue, the vast majority of smaller publishers were squeezed out of the industry.

And it has taken years to even begin to have the same level of independent books coming out as we had then. Now there are some really good books coming out today and the growth of an honest to God adult market as actually happened.

But the excitement, energy and just plain volume of great material is just nowhere near what we had 25 years ago.

[Stan-Lee1]

The second Golden Age of Comics already happened during the 1980's, when quality hit a high water mark and sales hit the biggest numbers that they saw in decades.

What will start the Third Golden Age?

A huge increase in both high quality new material, conbined with a new interest from the general public, just like the other two times.

did it really sorry wikipedia left out that little detali. I'll try to do better reserch so then the third GOLDEN AGE

[Stan-Lee1]

By the way "Stan", welcome to the boards.

Thank you.

[Strider119]

I think things are going pretty strong right now, haven't comic sales gotten stronger in the last few years? I think we might actually be on the cusp of a 3rd big boom.

Interest garnered from the movies and a general attitude toward comics as capable of telling stronger and more adult themed stories by the general public is helping. I mean we, as comic book nerds, know that comics have told great stroies for forever, but there is always that general perception that comics are for kids to overcome.


four on the floor:
strider119

[mikefalcon]

You're not really using Wikipedia as a research source, are you?

[pariah-1972]

Grrrr i'm sick and tired of people dissing Wikipedia (no offense to the last poster)
i think we might see a new golden age when and if comics become digital and they catch up with internet technology, i don't if anyone here has read Argon Zark, but i think it is the future of comic books they have bits of animation and there are links and hidden pages and digital colouring than apparently you can't get on paper.

unfortunately Marvel and DCs webcomics are a joke.:mad:

[stealthwise]

unfortunately Marvel and DCs webcomics are a joke.:mad:

So read some good ones:

http://pbfcomics.com
www.samandfuzzy.com
www.questionablecontent.net
www.somethingpositive.net
www.drmcninja.com
www.penny-arcade.com

[Stan-Lee1]

You're not really using Wikipedia as a research source, are you?

NO, I was joking of corse. I would never use wiki. to do reserch on something as important as comic books, every one know Wikipedia is just for lame stuff like history home work.;)

[dancj]

Wikipedia is great as long as you take it for what it is - which is not an authority on any absolutely reliable information.

[pariah-1972]

i think people underestimate how reliable it is and that it's not that simple to just write in anything you want, most of whats in there is debated on by a committee of sorts.

[Alan2099]

i think people underestimate how reliable it is and that it's not that simple to just write in anything you want, most of whats in there is debated on by a committee of sorts.

Nah, it's pretty easy to write anything you want. if somebody catches it and bring it to somebody elses attention, that's when it gets debated.

[pariah-1972]

Nah, it's pretty easy to write anything you want. if somebody catches it and bring it to somebody elses attention, that's when it gets debated.I'm sorry but thats not true at all i got into a huge argument about the definition of "alternative rap" right after i decided to edit it
and make it more clear, i spent two days fighting with the idiot before we were able to come to some sort of compromise.


and unfortunately you are not allowed to copy and paste from a reliable source because for some reason that violates some copyright law, so in the end you have to put you're own version and opinion on there which can cause huge amounts of debate on anything.

[Stan-Lee1]

What ever I think we're geeting off subject here and I know I'm the one that brought it up. Now if we could please get back to the real topic. from what I've seen comics are viewed as something for kids. we need to change this I think that the best way to do this would be to get comics out in more public places. May be if they just put out a comic shop in the local mall or out in newse stands. Even someone reading reading a comic out in public on a bus or in the park would serve as a type of advertising

[pariah-1972]

What ever I think we're geeting off subject here and I know I'm the one that brought it up. Now if we could please get back to the real topic. from what I've seen comics are viewed as something for kids. we need to change this I think that the best way to do this would be to get comics out in more public places. May be if they just put out a comic shop in the local mall or out in newse stands. Even someone reading reading a comic out in public on a bus or in the park would serve as a type of advertisingWe have had almost all those things happen before and they didn't change public opinion.
i am truly afraid nothing ever will no matter what.

[Renzo]

Why do we need to convince the general public that comics aren't for kids? If everyone in America bought comics, we would get useless tripe like you see on 90% of TV shows today because publishers would saturate the market with anything that remotely read like a comic.

The same just happened in anime. In 2003-2004, the anime industry saw a huge boom in profit and so the anime companies licensed as many shows as possible. Well, the market slowed down, people stopped buying anime, and companies started to struggle (ADV and Geneon, namely). This overextended the anime industry's financial capabilities and slowed the productivity of companies bringing over the actual good anime. Everything is just now started to pick back up.

We don't want comic book companies to overextend themselves for a market that isn't really there anymore. If it isn't broken, don't fix it.

[ultramandingo]

What has to happen for comic books to reach the same height of sales they had in the 1940-50’s(the golden age of comic books):confused: :confused: :confused: ?
Can it be done right now comics are not viewed like they are in countries like Japan, and personally I would to hate to see this media art form die.

............. in the 1940 and 50’s - and Japan ( and Europe ) they had and have comics that actually dont involve grown men in their underpants slaping each other month after month . but since that seems to be what red blooded american nerds are into , i kinda doubt your going to get a nother " golden " age

[pariah-1972]

............. in the 1940 and 50’s - and Japan ( and Europe ) they had and have comics that actually dont involve grown men in their underpants slaping each other month after month . but since that seems to be what red blooded american nerds are into , i kinda doubt your going to get a nother " golden " ageI'm sorry but there is something hilariously ironic about you're statement about grown men in underwear slapping themselves and then looking at you're avatar:D

i mean no offense by that by the way.

[ultramandingo]

I'm sorry but there is something hilariously ironic about you're statement about grown men in underwear slapping themselves and then looking at you're avatar:D

i mean no offense by that by the way.

.........even more ironic - im in my underpants right now- mabey this is the golden age !

[pariah-1972]

.........even more ironic - im in my underpants right now- mabey this is the golden age !Put some tights on underneath them and well wrastle !

[stealthwise]

Put some tights on underneath them and well wrastle !

Homoerotic thread derailment warning


Awkwaaaaaaarrd...

[Stan-Lee1]

............. in the 1940 and 50’s - and Japan ( and Europe ) they had and have comics that actually dont involve grown men in their underpants slaping each other month after month . but since that seems to be what red blooded american nerds are into , i kinda doubt your going to get a nother " golden " age

THANK YOU,that's what I've been saying for years that comics need to imitate manga. But I could never get any one to listen to me. so what do you guy think is the image of super hero too attatched to the word comic that we can't move away from it? I know that some companies have started to. Also sorry for the spelling and grammer. I didn't have time to run this thruogh spell check

[pariah-1972]

THANK YOU,that's what I've been saying for years that comics need to imitate manga. But I could never get any one to listen to me. so what do you guy think is the image of super hero too attatched to the word comic that we can't move away from it? I know that some companies have started to. Also sorry for the spelling and grammer. I didn't have time to run this thruogh spell checkU've seen a lot of people online say we need to imitate manga in one way or another.

[pariah-1972]

THANK YOU,that's what I've been saying for years that comics need to imitate manga. But I could never get any one to listen to me. so what do you guy think is the image of super hero too attatched to the word comic that we can't move away from it? I know that some companies have started to. Also sorry for the spelling and grammer. I didn't have time to run this thruogh spell checki've seen a lot of people online say we need to imitate manga in one way or another.

[pariah-1972]

THANK YOU,that's what I've been saying for years that comics need to imitate manga. But I could never get any one to listen to me. so what do you guy think is the image of super hero too attatched to the word comic that we can't move away from it? I know that some companies have started to. Also sorry for the spelling and grammer. I didn't have time to run this thruogh spell checki've seen a lot of people online say we need to imitate manga in one way or another.

[dancj]

i've seen a lot of people online say we need to imitate manga in one way or another.
And now I've seen one person say it a lot of times!:p

[stelok]

Comics is for kids from 1930's to 1960's.

Comics is for nerds from 1960's to now.

But during the 1940's and 1990's, the comic book sales booms have one thing in common: Suckers.

the kids are big suckers to propaganda comics during the 1940's, buying them to feed their fantasy of fighting the bad guys like Nazis.

During the 1990's the comics nerds are big suckers to the misconception of buying multiple copies of the same comic so they would resell overpriced garbage for higher prices.

[Stan-Lee1]

i've seen a lot of people online say we need to imitate manga in one way or another.

So then do you agree or are you just screwing with me?

[Shellhead]

Emulating manga isn't sufficient. Try getting large quantities of non-comic readers to re-evaluate what they think of comics is a starting point. Next, try to convince them that 2D artwork on flat paper pages is more entertaining than watching a movie on a DVD. And while you're at it, persuade American artists to accept less pay for more work, or else persuade these new potential comic-buyers that $3.00 is a fair price for about 20 pages of story.

I believe that the really important difference between the golden age of comics and now is the kids. Superhero comics were designed for kids, with bright colors and flashy powers and wild plot twists. Kids will always be a solid potential market for comics, except right now, when the prices are too high.

[pariah-1972]

There is something wrong with this thread and someone needs to bring it up to a mod.

[pariah-1972]

So then do you agree or are you just screwing with me?I'm not agreeing that we should do what you are suggesting because i don't read manga.
i just said that you are not alone in thinking we should do this.

[pariah-1972]

Emulating manga isn't sufficient. Try getting large quantities of non-comic readers to re-evaluate what they think of comics is a starting point. Next, try to convince them that 2D artwork on flat paper pages is more entertaining than watching a movie on a DVD. And while you're at it, persuade American artists to accept less pay for more work, or else persuade these new potential comic-buyers that $3.00 is a fair price for about 20 pages of story.

I believe that the really important difference between the golden age of comics and now is the kids. Superhero comics were designed for kids, with bright colors and flashy powers and wild plot twists. Kids will always be a solid potential market for comics, except right now, when the prices are too high.When exactly where comics for kids? i have been reading about how WW2 comics were read mostly by soldiers, and then i read that the Silver Age comics were read a lot by college kids.

[Shellhead]

When exactly where comics for kids? i have been reading about how WW2 comics were read mostly by soldiers, and then i read that the Silver Age comics were read a lot by college kids.

I started reading comics in 1970, when I was 5. Comics were widely available on spin racks everywhere, in grocery stores and drug stores and newstands. They cost 20 cents each. Almost every single boy that I knew was also buying comics. The only adults that I knew that had comics back then were parents stuck with comic collections that their kids had outgrown. These tended to end up getting sold cheap at garage sales, to kids like me. Some girls also read comics, and there were romance and funny comics for them to read, like Millie the Model or Archie. There was definitely a stigma attached to reading comics if you weren't a young kid, because I started getting funny looks from clerks by the time I was 13. Fortunately, I found a specialty shop to buy comics from around that time.

The idea that soldiers were reading most of the comics in WWII is a surprising notion. I could see it happening on base in the U.S., but once those guys got deployed overseas, the distribution would be non-existent. I concede that there were definitely college kids starting to read comics in the silver age, but that only started as Marvel began to aim for older readers in the late '60s, with better writing and more serious themes.

[pariah-1972]

I started reading comics in 1970, when I was 5. Comics were widely available on spin racks everywhere, in grocery stores and drug stores and newstands. They cost 20 cents each. Almost every single boy that I knew was also buying comics. The only adults that I knew that had comics back then were parents stuck with comic collections that their kids had outgrown. These tended to end up getting sold cheap at garage sales, to kids like me. Some girls also read comics, and there were romance and funny comics for them to read, like Millie the Model or Archie. There was definitely a stigma attached to reading comics if you weren't a young kid, because I started getting funny looks from clerks by the time I was 13. Fortunately, I found a specialty shop to buy comics from around that time.

The idea that soldiers were reading most of the comics in WWII is a surprising notion. I could see it happening on base in the U.S., but once those guys got deployed overseas, the distribution would be non-existent. I concede that there were definitely college kids starting to read comics in the silver age, but that only started as Marvel began to aim for older readers in the late '60s, with better writing and more serious themes.So when did this stigma get attached ? i was reading comics in the 70s and 80s and i was just a wee kid myself.

but the whole Batman and Robin controversy by Wertham came out long before then so it's real confusing.

[Shellhead]

So when did this stigma get attached ? i was reading comics in the 70s and 80s and i was just a wee kid myself.

but the whole Batman and Robin controversy by Wertham came out long before then so it's real confusing.

If the primary comic fans in the golden age had been soldiers and college students, Wertham's assertions would have been ignored. But even then, most Americans considered comics to be intended for kids. That's why so many people freaked out at the idea that comics might be corrupting the youngsters.

Understand this: most Americans think of either Archie or superheroes when they think of comic books. With Archie, you've got cartoonish-looking characters engaged in light stories that are only slightly amusing. With the superhero comics, you have ridiculously muscular guys and busty gals wearing outlandish and colorful costumes, bashing on each other in elaborately hokey plots. Look at Superman, the most famous superhero ever... he is wearing blue long johns with his red underwear on the outside and a red cape as well. This is not a visual that most adult are prepared to take seriously.

So the stigma associated with comics is not the one imposed by Wertham, it's the broadly-held belief that reading comics is about as mature as playing with GI Joe. That perception was formed in the '40s, and has only gradually been changing thanks to improved writing in the silver age through the present, as well as a few decent high-profile comic book movies. This rate of change is too slow to save the industry, which has been ramping up cover prices too quickly and shutting out kids with excessively mature themes.

[pariah-1972]

which has been ramping up cover prices too quickly and shutting out kids with excessively mature themes.Not to mention anytime they put out a comic nowadays that appeals to kids you can't find them very well especially in comic shops.
hell i'm not even sure that most kids would even like them since most kids don't like being talked down to.
the only comic i remember that even had teenager heroes was the 80s version of teen titans which was very dark especially with the Brother Blood thing going on.

[Shellhead]

hell i'm not even sure that most kids would even like them since most kids don't like being talked down to.
the only comic i remember that even had teenager heroes was the 80s version of teen titans which was very dark especially with the Brother Blood thing going on.

When I was 5, the only possible way to talk down to me was to resort to baby talk, which infuriated me.

Today, we realize that it's ridiculous for adult heroes to run around with young sidekicks, but that was a popular element in the golden age and also the early silver age, because those sidekicks were close to the age of the typical comic fans back then. The genius of the original Teen Titans series was to make a team out of all those sidekicks. There was a big tonal shift between the early silver age Teen Titans who fought the Mad Mod and the late silver age Teen Titans who fought Brother Blood.

Another example: there was a time in the '40s when Captain Marvel was outselling Superman. Think about it, the main difference between Captain Marvel and Superman is that Captain Marvel's secret identity is a kid. To a kid, he had the ultimate superpower, to say a magic word and become an adult. Today, Captain Marvel just isn't popular enough to carry a regular monthly series for long.

[pariah-1972]

i don't remember reading comics when i was 5 but then again i don't remember much of anything at that age either.

anyways i was also a fan of the new mutants which also tended to be a bit dark compared to most teen books today.

[Parch]

Superhero themes were not as dominant back in the 40's. Westerns, romance, crime, horror, war, and even sports had a large chunk of the marketplace back then. That's why there was a larger adult market for comics, and they also didn't have television as competition.

Even with more adult content in superhero comics, I would think it is still primarily a kid/teen/young adult preference. The current cost factor really holds back improved sales for a market primarily relying on superheros.

If comics are ever going to a 3rd age, it's going to be with more Vertigo-type adult topics and away from superheros. I don't see it happening.

[Shellhead]

If comics are ever going to a 3rd age, it's going to be with more Vertigo-type adult topics and away from superheros. I don't see it happening.

I agree. The Vertigo label has been around for what, 15 years now, and DC had Vertigo-style comics as early as the mid-80s. But those comics don't sell well, compared to the Infinite Crossover Events offered by DC and Marvel, and fans are now getting burned out on paying $150+ for each decompressed mess.

Another example... Jonah Hex is a very good western comic that comes out every month now like clockwork. Great writing and decent artwork. But there is very little discussion of it here or anywhere else that I've seen, and sales are steady but low compared to most DC titles.

[ultramandingo]

.....plus the constant churning out of crappy super guys movies aint helping any - seems like the big 2 are just keeping the comics around until the movie tie in pays off

[Parch]

It is unfortunate that non-superhero stuff doesn't sell better. Even the more popular titles like Fables and Y barely register compared to the superhero sales.

[dancj]

Another example... Jonah Hex is a very good western comic that comes out every month now like clockwork. Great writing and decent artwork. But there is very little discussion of it here or anywhere else that I've seen, and sales are steady but low compared to most DC titles.
What's to discuss. It's a decent enough but unspectacular comic, and each story is done in one issue so there's no discussions about where the current plotline is leading or anything like that.

[rick]

I was reading this thread and came across this line.


….the kids are big suckers to propaganda comics during the 1940's, buying them to feed their fantasy of fighting the bad guys like Nazis.


And I thought it was a really weird statement.

I’m not sure how kids in the 1940’s were suckers for buying comics that supported their side during the biggest war in history.

[stelok]

I was reading this thread and came across this line.



And I thought it was a really weird statement.

I’m not sure how kids in the 1940’s were suckers for buying comics that supported their side during the biggest war in history.

The Golden Age comics had nice propaganda value that appealed to the kids' patriotism, which may have been good for Uncle Sam but at what cost? Many of politically incorrect Golden Age comics demonized, stereotypified and satirized the peoples of the enemy nations. Racism is also used for propaganda in WWII comics.

For example, in Wonder Woman's comic, when a Nazi commander greets Wonder Woman graciously, she exclaims that no German treats a prisoner graciously and makes an assumption that the Nazi is a German-American. And actually her assumption was correct.

[DC906270-BIL]

hi, i am new to the forums, been browsing for a while but this is my first post:D

i think for comics to become more popular, we would have to see the demise of the other technological entertainment sources, such as games consoles, and the internet. then, the modern day youngster would have fewer entertainment options. it is no coincedence that the decline in comics sales coincided with the rise in popularity of the aforementioned home entertainments.
and, i think the popularity of comics has as much to do with the low interest in reading anything amongst people these days.

having said that, the comic book movies are no doubt attracting new fans to the genre, but i think a more adult fan as well. this is no bad thing for me, as this means comics will be produced with the more adult fan in mind (i am 30 yrs old!). i think comics have now gone from being a kids medium, to being targeted at adults/young adults aged 18 - 35, who can probably afford to buy more anyways.

[pariah-1972]

hi, i am new to the forums, been browsing for a while but this is my first post:D

i think for comics to become more popular, we would have to see the demise of the other technological entertainment sources, such as games consoles, and the internet. then, the modern day youngster would have fewer entertainment options. it is no coincedence that the decline in comics sales coincided with the rise in popularity of the aforementioned home entertainments.
and, i think the popularity of comics has as much to do with the low interest in reading anything amongst people these days.

having said that, the comic book movies are no doubt attracting new fans to the genre, but i think a more adult fan as well. this is no bad thing for me, as this means comics will be produced with the more adult fan in mind (i am 30 yrs old!). i think comics have now gone from being a kids medium, to being targeted at adults/young adults aged 18 - 35, who can probably afford to buy more anyways.Actually kids have more spending power cause they don't have other responsibilities like a wife and children and bills.
this is one reason why comics don't sell like they used to.

[Mr.Writer]

Clearly it can't be too bad, after all kids read Harry Potter, and those monsters eat my phonebook.


The problem is mutlilateral. First is the demographic clot. Face it, kids read Naruto. They don't read Spiderman, or even Ultimate Spiderman. This is because of expense/quanity ratio and the general harsh mature curve comics have. When Fratboy Prime starts to torture the local 5D imp and burn a man's face in the upper atmosphere before blowing up his universe...yeah...

Second is the general narrative quality. It sucks. Books always gravitate to the mainline characters and plots-always. Something happens and then retcon. Things grow old and are nicked off, replaced, or retconed. Stories never end, and new stories can never begin. Sure, changes blossom up here and there-but look at comics throughout the age and no one has the guts to close the book anymore or keep enough things static. It's a tall order, but somewhere along the line a story has to end. Things have to change-and not in the Crisis way. There has to be a begging, middle, and end. People have to change and the changes have to matter outside of the one issue-one arch momment

This makes everyone look stupid in terms of logical consistancy, and craps any chance of winning artwork awards.

Soloution-Produce quality products and make them available. Simple. Or kill Joe Quesada. Even more simple.:evilsmile

[Alex Scott]

There's even more to Naruto than just that:

For one thing, he and his supporting cast are all hovering around 12 years old (before the time jump, anyway). Instead of adults to look up to, the readers have kids their own age they can admire. Take a look at almost any children's novel on the market. Or virtually anything on Cartoon Network or Nickelodeon. How often are the protagonists much older than 16?

Then there's the thing Marvel and DC seem too stubborn to realize: superheroes aren't the only wish-fulfillment fantasy out there. Superheroes aren't even the only form of "hero" available--just one step in the hero's constant evolution.

Take Harry Potter's central premise: What if you went to a school for wizards? It's a total wish-fulfillment fantasy, and it totally works. Replace "wizards" with "ninjas" and you basically have Naruto. But what about being a sports star? Japanese kids have plenty of comics about basketball, baseball, football, golf, fishing, racing, and volleyball to satisfy their interests. American kids? Zilch. What about kids who might want a little romance? Again, not a whole heck of a lot. They have to turn to Japan for that. What do we have that's anything like, say, Hikaru no Go or Fruits Basket?

(that said, why Marvel doesn't push Runaways and Power Pack to at least attempt to compete with Naruto is a complete mystery to me)

And besides, they don't have to worry about Quesada stepping in and erasing two thirds of the series to satisfy his own whims. In fact, an important point to keep in mind: over the course of Dragon Ball, Son Goku grows up, gets married, and has two children, both of whom fight alongside him; by the end of the series, his friends have kids, and he even has a granddaughter. This never harmed the popularity of the series, in Japan or the US.

(another point: Viz just rolled out 12 volumes of Naruto in four months, in a crazed marketing gamble that also brought the US version closer to the Japanese. Every single one of those volumes turned up in USA Today's top 100 bestsellers. Even I didn't expect it to work, but it sure as heck did)

[GLover]

There's even more to Naruto than just that:

For one thing, he and his supporting cast are all hovering around 12 years old (before the time jump, anyway). Instead of adults to look up to, the readers have kids their own age they can admire.

What about kids who might want a little romance?

That's great, but kids need to be looking up to adult figures as well, and I think that a lot of the major characters out there have developed into something kids can't even relate to anymore. In golden age comics it was common to have a lesson in life specifically pointed out to the reader. I think that's a bit hackneyed, but a move in that direction might be nice for comics intended for younger audiences. I think maybe Booster Gold is wacky enough to catch a kids attention, but the current storyline would be way over their heads. And isn't Deadpool the ultimate child at heart? Everything is becoming mature reading because it's the 25 to 40 year olds who have the disposeable income to support sales. It may sound silly, but until publishing companies realize that they are in the business of producing a quality product, not the business of making money, a lot of comics will continue to suck. Crappy comics are cheap and easy to produce.

I'm thinking that kid's could stand to have a little less romance overall.

[Omar Karindu]

I'm still very much of the opinion that the real problem with American comics isn't what's produced by comics companies, but the broader attitudes towards comics that make it very difficult for "serious" or nonsuperhero, nonfantasy genres to make it in contemporary American comics.

This wasn't always the case; practically every genre credited to manga these days has in fact existed, even been briefly popular, in American comics, particularly in the period between the end of World War II and the inception of the Comics Code. There were romance comics, comedy comics (of which Archie is the most prominent surviving example), sports comics (which boomed in 1948-50 or so), stage magician comics, crime and horror comics (the only non-superhero genre material anyone really remembers), funny animal comics, TV and movie tie-in comics, science fiction comics, girls' fashion comics, monster comics, western comics, Classics Illustrated, noncostumed adventurer comics, firefighter comics...you name it, there were comics about it. Aimed at kids, mostly, of course, but in a stunning panoply of genres.

And it almost happened again in the early to mid-1970s, when guys like Jim Steranko and Stan Lee tried to restart romance comics, DC was trying out stuff like The Maniaks (a rock band comedy comic) in issues of Showcase, and so on. And there were revivals of horror comics and science fiction comics, the latter usually tied in to popular movies or TV series like Marvel's 2001 or everyone's Star Trek and Star Wars titles. Those tie-ins in turn motivated experiments, mostly at DC, to create or revive original sci-fi comics properties. Fantasy novels became a serious comcis genre with Marvel's Conan adapations and its slew of imitators. (Indeed, DC kept a lot of its non-superhero genre material around for a damn long time, and reprinted it frequently as backups; anyone here ever stumbled across the likes of "Roy Raymond, TV Detective" in an old Dollar Comic, for example?)

But both times, the comics market managed to implode rather spectacularly, albeit for different reasons. And both times, the superheroes were ultimately what survived. No one really knows why, except perhaps that superheroes are one of the more uniquely and distinctly American comics genres in the first place.

I'd argue that the root of all of this is the still-overwhelming public perception in this country, unique perhaps in the world, that Comics Are for Kids. You can give <I>Maus</I> a Pulitzer, you can write gushing reviews of Chris Ware's work and have him edit a serious and grownup comics anthology, you can document R. Crumb and adapt Pekar and Clowes and Moore and Satrapi, you can publish under Vertigo, but the degree to which the general public shifts its perceptions of comics remains miniscule. And you can blame the Comics Code for stagnating things, but let's face it: the creation of the Code and the Kefauver hearings that preceded it are artifacts of the cultural attitude, not causes of it. If Comics Weren't Just for Kids, no one would be making special efforts to link them to juvenile crime, or specifically bemoaning their corrupting effects on youth. The CCA, so often the villain in these conversations, came about because Americans see comics as kiddie stuff, not the other way around.

If people wanted, really really wanted to buy lots of grownup comics in TPB form, we'd be seeing them turn up on bestseller lists; they don't. The profoundly respectable and universally lauded Maus sold around 45,000 copies last year. Dan Brown crap and self-help books and celebrity tell-alls and Harry Potter simply stomp serious comics collections into the ground in sales terms. There is no public awareness, not a real and lasting one, that comics are a medium rather than a set of rather disreputable genres in this country.

People can and have heard about and some have even seen and read the American equivalents of the sorts of comics that are par for the course in Japan and Europe. They still see them as exceptions somehow, special curiosities rather than examples of what loads of actual people are busily creating right now. And they don't really reward publishers or bookstores for them -- there's a reason the graphic novels section at most bookstores isn't a huge one compared to more established media like prose fiction and nonfiction. (It is usually bigger than poetry and drama, which goes mainly show that even fewer people read those media anymore.) And comics have nowhere near the presence or the diversity of their distant cousin film here.

But neither does animation, really; prior to the film version of Persepolis, can anyone really remember a serious animated film that got any attention in the United States? We don't have a cultural attitudes that will let comics become more like manga, and we also seem to lack the cultural attitudes that would let animated films become anime. Instead what we get are family films that load up on sbtext and "parents only" jokes while still being produced and marketed mainly for the kids. We have few animated dramas -- Richard Linklater seems to make most of them himself -- and animated science fiction films tend to fail spectacularly.

For whatever reason, Americans tend to think of line art, that is cartooning, as a juvenile medium whether it's animated or panel-to-panel, whether it's called comic books or graphic novels, and most especially whether or not there are plenty of counterexamples from her and from abroad. WHta most Americans do is treat those as exceptions; note how very few of the American attempts to produce material that is stylistically like manga and covers very different material than superhero punch-ups sell even mediocre numbers. We and our kids accept it when it's from Japan, but not when it's from here. The kid who reads manga is probably not going to read the Minx line, let alone Strangers in Paradise. (That said, I wouldn't mind seeing some sales figures and, more importantly, some reader demographics for the Scott Pilgrim series. Anyone want to loan me a few hundred thousand to pay a research firm? It's for the good of comics, guys :) )

I'm increasingly of the opinion that it's just a culturally-specific blind spot, and you could almost certainly find equivalent blind spots in other countries for other media. 40 years of underground comics has just barely put dent one in the mainstream consensus about comics, er, graphic literature, er, "comix."

[Alex Scott]

That's great, but kids need to be looking up to adult figures as well, and I think that a lot of the major characters out there have developed into something kids can't even relate to anymore. In golden age comics it was common to have a lesson in life specifically pointed out to the reader. I think that's a bit hackneyed, but a move in that direction might be nice for comics intended for younger audiences.
But this isn't about what you think they need. It's about what they want. And I honestly don't think American comics offer kids what they want. Manga, kids' fiction, Cartoon Network, and Nickelodeon do, in spades. Marvel and DC aren't interested in that: they're just trying to push their own interests on everyone else. But what the Japanese publishers realized a long time ago is that they have to offer something for everybody.

Heck, Marvel and DC don't even offer the best action comics anymore. Why even bother when anyone can read Naruto or Rurouni Kenshin, and get better fight choreography and more intense storytelling, without the convoluted, retconned-beyond-recognition continuity?

[GLover]

But this isn't about what you think they need. It's about what they want. And I honestly don't think American comics offer kids what they want. Manga, kids' fiction, Cartoon Network, and Nickelodeon do, in spades.

I just don't know enough about manga, etc to even comment on its content. I'll have to confess, when I see it I look the other way. I just don't get it. As far as just giving kids what they want...Let me go ahead and sound like an old man here (I'm only 31!). I think it's time we take an honest look at what we collectively believe is apropriate for young children. Schools aren't exactly getting better, families are falling apart, the world is becoming increasingly violent and polluted. It's getting harder and harder to deny all of these things. I certainly don't blame all this on forms of entertainment that target young people, but it's not a bad place to start making some changes while still entertaining them.

[Mark Wallace]

What has to happen for comic books to reach the same height of sales they had in the 1940-50’s(the golden age of comic books):confused: :confused: :confused: ?

Porn would have to be as unavailable as it was in those days.

[stelok]

Porn would have to be as unavailable as it was in those days.

Neither would internet, DVDs and video games.