Tom Foster as Goliath: Yay or Nay?

[Will.S]

This looks like almost too perfect of a set-up but with Tom appearing in Black Panther and Incredible Hulk angry at Iron Man and Mr. Fantastic for the death of his uncle, is it a good transition?

They also make note that he's a MIT student and wants to crack Pym's formula. In fact I think Monty Crisco commented on the cover already but he may already be working with WWH Aftersmash: Damage Control.

http://images.comicbookresources.com/solicits/marvelcomics/200801/WWHDAMAGE001.jpg

[drwho]

no way the kid is a brat. ive been hoping for debris to fall on him.

[Cayman]

It would be alright. He's not really all that vivid a character in my mind.

It would be nice to have another Goliath around. I'd probably prefer an older character, rather than a young one. If there was a young Goliath, I'd go with David from New X-Men instead, perhaps. Or even Rage.

Overall, I'll say 'yay" though.

[Your Imaginary Pal]

I think he'd be pretty happy if Debris fell on him...the one from New Warriors.

But do we really need any more sizers in the MU?
I mean really?

[StoneGold]

More to the point, do we need another Black Goliath? There was a reason they killed the first one off. Or at least a reason he was allowed to be killed off. And it was because he was kind of lame.

[Shyft]

i dont really see the point in another size-changer, but its not like this guy is going to be front and centre in the MU, so who cares.

[Monty_Cristo]

i always wanted Elvin Haliday to gain growth power (just so he could lose the name 'Rage'). but i could settle for Tom taking up the mantle. i would have rather the sister been the MIT grad/superheroine just because there aren't that many smart black females out there. but eh....


wait, why did they kill Bill again? i guess they couldn't have any competition for Pym.

[Monty_Cristo]

I think he'd be pretty happy if Debris fell on him...the one from New Warriors.

But do we really need any more sizers in the MU?
I mean really?

hey, they can all die; for all i care. as long as Eric O'Grady survives.

[matthewaos]

Yes BUT, not now, I would like that to happen some months from now.

[Dagger]

I'll have to wait til the issue comes out, because I'd be all for another Goliath, as long as he's written well.

[Alan2099]

It would be nice to have another Goliath around. I'd probably prefer an older character, rather than a young one. If there was a young Goliath, I'd go with David from New X-Men instead, perhaps.
David as Goliath?

Has a nice ring to it. I like it.

[HeckBoy]

I think he'd be pretty happy if Debris fell on him...the one from New Warriors.

But do we really need any more sizers in the MU?
I mean really?
Yeah, it's getting pretty redundant now. But, it seems like size-shifters are Marvel's pet power. They're basically Marvel's counterpart to DC's Flash family at this point: many varied, and somewhat legacy, individuals (on many teams) deriving their powers from the same exact source, often with the same name.

[XPac]

I personally find it a bit scary anytime they decide to give a person a Pym identity. They tend to have an unually high fatality rate, and I'm not sure I want to see the kid follow his uncles footsteps that closely.

[Rahul]

He's mentally unstable to be a hero.

[XPac]

He's mentally unstable to be a hero.

Which I suppose makes him just mentally unstable enough to be a Pym variant.

[Monty_Cristo]

Yeah, it's getting pretty redundant now. But, it seems like size-shifters are Marvel's pet power. They're basically Marvel's counterpart to DC's Flash family at this point: many varied, and somewhat legacy, individuals (on many teams) deriving their powers from the same exact source, often with the same name.

that's a bit of an exaggeration, especially when you compare it to the incidence of characters with derivatives of Spider-man's power. or how about people who have powers like superman? or healing factors?

[DaeJi]

No, hell no. The kid's too self-absorbed and petty, not to mention annoying. He should either become the annoying character who is used as a joke or die.

[Daouda]

Tom should get the size changing powers.

Tom should definately get somekind of revenge on Reed, Pym and Tony.

He has a clear and righteous reason to be untrusting of the superhero establishment. His uncle was one of the most unsullied, hardworking, good characters around and he was killed by criminal negligence by the so-called "enforcers" of the law who actually broke more laws then the people they were apprehending.

Maybe Tom could be sued by Pym but win due to a sympathetic jury. That would be sweet.:evilsmile

I could see him in New Worriors if they didn't already have a size-changer.

Excelsior!

Daoud

[Monty_Cristo]

Tom should get the size changing powers.

Tom should definately get somekind of revenge on Reed, Pym and Tony.

He has a clear and righteous reason to be untrusting of the superhero establishment. His uncle was one of the most unsullied, hardworking, good characters around and he was killed by criminal negligence by the so-called "enforcers" of the law who actually broke more laws then the people they were apprehending.

Maybe Tom could be sued by Pym but win due to a sympathetic jury. That would be sweet.:evilsmile

I could see him in New Worriors if they didn't already have a size-changer.

Excelsior!

Daoud

the New Warriors don't have a size-changer. they just have access to pym particle gas that they've used twice (to shrink people). and Goliath got himself killed. Clor, evil as he may be, killed Bill in self-defense. it was stupid for him to be on the anti-registration side, in the first place. i blame Captain America for that one.

[kalorama]

the New Warriors don't have a size-changer. they just have access to pym particle gas that they've used twice (to shrink people). and Goliath got himself killed. Clor, evil as he may be, killed Bill in self-defense.

From a legal standpoint, the self-defense defense only applies if the person doing the killing had a reasonable fear of his or her life. I seriously doubt Clor was worried about Goliath killing him. If he was actually as strong as Thor, I doubt Goliath could have even if he wanted to.

[Shellhead]

Yeah, it's getting pretty redundant now. But, it seems like size-shifters are Marvel's pet power. They're basically Marvel's counterpart to DC's Flash family at this point: many varied, and somewhat legacy, individuals (on many teams) deriving their powers from the same exact source, often with the same name.

Not counting Atom II, Atom III, Atom Smasher, Elasti-Girl, Colossal Boy or Shrinking Violet?

[beetheb]

Back OT: Let's be honest -- No one gave a crap about Bill Foster when he was Goliath, and no one will give much of a crap about Tom Foster as Goliath II.

Bill Foster was resurrected from obscurity for pretty much the sole purpose of being killed in CW, why are we all of a sudden so lofty about accepting a successor? Kind of like rejecting the idea of someone else taking on the Darkhawk suit because Chris Powell was just too tough an act to follow.

Who's Chris Powell? Exactly. Sort of reminds me of what I thought when reading CW #2. "Who's Bill Foster?"...and I know I wasn't the only one.

[darkhawk76]

hmm who's Chris Powell

the name rings a bell :p

[XPac]

the New Warriors don't have a size-changer. they just have access to pym particle gas that they've used twice (to shrink people). and Goliath got himself killed. Clor, evil as he may be, killed Bill in self-defense. it was stupid for him to be on the anti-registration side, in the first place. i blame Captain America for that one.

The people running Clor clearly showed negligence there.

The could have shut Clor down with a single sentence, but they chose not to. Everyone there knew dam well lethal force was neither necessary or desirable, so when Clor indicated that he was going to kill them (2 seconds after showing up), they probably should hae shut him down right there.

They CERTAINLY should have shut him down AFTER Clor killed Bill, but even then they don't bother. If not for Sue Storm's actions, Clor's body could would have been much much higher.

I won't say they murdered Bill exactly, but they were clearly negligent in that they lost control of their weapon. Tony, Reed, and Hank would likely be the first to say they did not want Clor to kill Bill regardless of what Bill was doing there. Fight him sure... but not use lethal force. Clor was a weapon they lost control of. Clor was a weapon they didn't bother taking back control of even though they easily could have. There's fault there.

[XPac]

From a legal standpoint, the self-defense defense only applies if the person doing the killing had a reasonable fear of his or her life. I seriously doubt Clor was worried about Goliath killing him. If he was actually as strong as Thor, I doubt Goliath could have even if he wanted to.

Clor basically told them he was going to kill them all the second he showed up, before anyone said or did anything to him. In a court of law, self-defense would be a pretty uphill battle to prove.

[Monty_Cristo]

Clor basically told them he was going to kill them all the second he showed up, before anyone said or did anything to him. In a court of law, self-defense would be a pretty uphill battle to prove.



legally, it amounts to a cop saying "stop or i'll shoot." Foster was a law breaker who was looking to assault Clor. you say that Clor shouldn't have had any fear of bodily harm. Bill sure seemed to believe that he could harm him. Clor killed him in self-defense. Clor's initial hammer attack killed no one.

[Fatguy]

More to the point, do we need another Black Goliath? There was a reason they killed the first one off. Or at least a reason he was allowed to be killed off. And it was because he was kind of lame.

Exactly.

He was a nice guy and all, but nobody gave a crap about Bill Foster before he died (and become the example of minority characters being killed off, rolls eyes). Now, his son hasnt been shown to be anything other than an obnoxious brat. Seems a little pointless.

That being said, there needs to be a "dont care" option on the poll. If he was to become another Goliath (cause we need 10 people in the MU who change size at all times...) I wouldnt really feel yay OR nay. I would just hope that somebody takes his character and does something good with him, changing my mind.

[TotalWorldDomination]

Only if he and Amedeus Cho form a buddy-buddy superhuman team that gets killed at the end of every issue of a new ongoing comic ala the original MTV run of Aeon Flux. Except more coherant.

[Magneto Rocks]

From a legal standpoint, the self-defense defense only applies if the person doing the killing had a reasonable fear of his or her life. I seriously doubt Clor was worried about Goliath killing him. If he was actually as strong as Thor, I doubt Goliath could have even if he wanted to.

Goliath was charging towards Clor screaming about his intention to kill him. I think if Goliath stepped on him, he'd be pretty screwed.

The people running Clor clearly showed negligence there.

The could have shut Clor down with a single sentence, but they chose not to.

I don't know why you keep saying this, it's not at all a fair statement. Either they chose not to... or they couldn't. Why? It's blatantly obvious, they weren't standing beside him at the time and really had no means of communication with him where he was, not to mention no real NEED to before he killed Bill Foster. So we can go with the option which makes sense with what we see and is totally in tune with characterization- they couldn't- OR we can go with the option that isn't in tune with character, makes less sense with what we saw and which no writer has ever supported on paper yet- that they chose not to. :) But that's unrelated anyway, because there was no need to shut him down until after Bill's death, so THAT's when the discussion we're talking about should occur.

. Everyone there knew dam well lethal force was neither necessary or desirable, so when Clor indicated that he was going to kill them (2 seconds after showing up), they probably should hae shut him down right there.

He was clearly programmed to psyche them out. That much is obvious. Ergo, there was no real reason to shut him down UNTIL Bill Foster was dead, at which point it was an immediate impossibility until they could reach him.

[Hulkamaniac]

I love how it's conjectured to what should have happened with Clor, or what was intended, when it is more relevant as to what actually occurred. If I set a bomb in a busy area and it blew up killing people, or even if it only damaged property, whether or not I actually intended for that to happen is irrelevant after the fact that it actually did go off and hurt/killed.

[psm]

I said yay, not because I really want to see another size changing character. I said yes, because there is a really good story potential for Tom Foster becoming Goliath. Add in his immaturity and you could continually develop the character for the next few years.

After that he can go back to obscurity like the last Goliath. :)

[Llamablaster]

Yes, this needs to happen so that there's a character to kill off in the next major crossover.

[Monty_Cristo]

I love how it's conjectured to what should have happened with Clor, or what was intended, when it is more relevant as to what actually occurred. If I set a bomb in a busy area and it blew up killing people, or even if it only damaged property, whether or not I actually intended for that to happen is irrelevant after the fact that it actually did go off and hurt/killed.

sort of like the New Warriors provoking Nitro.

[Dafyr]

I think a Black Goliath legacy character would be OK. If they did not just make him a one demesional angry character. As far as more size changers, why not? There are sooo many other repeat character powers out there. It is the personality that makes us interested, no?

[Monty_Cristo]

maybe Tom should find his own thing and Eric O'Grady should take the Goliath persona. was the Goliath of legend a good guy, anyways?

[Magneto Rocks]

I love how it's conjectured to what should have happened with Clor, or what was intended, when it is more relevant as to what actually occurred. If I set a bomb in a busy area and it blew up killing people, or even if it only damaged property, whether or not I actually intended for that to happen is irrelevant after the fact that it actually did go off and hurt/killed.

Hardly. Clor cannot be called a bomb.

The problem is, it's not as simple as "Clor went crazy." The issue is that Bill Foster was actively resisting arrest, and under those circumstances, homicides by the law, while regrettable, are not murder. Combine that with the fact that Bill Foster was at the time charging, while fifty feet tall, at his opponent screaming about his foe's impending demise and, well, had that been a real policeman who fired his gun instead of Clor, then there's no sane way a judge could have found him guilty.

[XPac]

legally, it amounts to a cop saying "stop or i'll shoot." Foster was a law breaker who was looking to assault Clor. you say that Clor shouldn't have had any fear of bodily harm. Bill sure seemed to believe that he could harm him. Clor killed him in self-defense. Clor's initial hammer attack killed no one.

Clor did not say stop or I'll shoot. He basically showed up and told them he was going to kill them all.

After Goliath died, everyone on both sides basically stopped fighting, and Clor was still attacking them.

Clor made his intentions clear... again, he flat out said what he was going to do when he showed up. You don't have to take my word for it, you can just take his.

[XPac]

Goliath was charging towards Clor screaming about his intention to kill him. I think if Goliath stepped on him, he'd be pretty screwed.



I don't know why you keep saying this, it's not at all a fair statement. Either they chose not to... or they couldn't. Why? It's blatantly obvious, they weren't standing beside him at the time and really had no means of communication with him where he was, not to mention no real NEED to before he killed Bill Foster. So we can go with the option which makes sense with what we see and is totally in tune with characterization- they couldn't- OR we can go with the option that isn't in tune with character, makes less sense with what we saw and which no writer has ever supported on paper yet- that they chose not to. :) But that's unrelated anyway, because there was no need to shut him down until after Bill's death, so THAT's when the discussion we're talking about should occur.



He was clearly programmed to psyche them out. That much is obvious. Ergo, there was no real reason to shut him down UNTIL Bill Foster was dead, at which point it was an immediate impossibility until they could reach him.

Even if they weren't standing right by him when Thor was attacking, there's no reason they can't go up to him and shut him down. You have Tony who can fly, and Reed who can stretch.

I would argue that the fact that Clor told them he was going to kill them was a possible reason to shut him down right there. I CERTAINLY think shutting him down after they killed Bill was more than appropriate. Again, had Sue not acted a lot more people could have been killed.

Had the writer given me a reason to believe that they couldn't shut Clor down, I'd certainly be willing to factor that into the situation. But from what I saw, there isn't one. If you see a reason why they couldn't shut Clor down, by all means cite it. Prove that they couldn't, and perhaps we can end the issue. You're arguing that it was an impossibility... can you back that statement up at all with anything in the text? Why was it impossible?

[Monty_Cristo]

Clor did not say stop or I'll shoot. He basically showed up and told them he was going to kill them all.

After Goliath died, everyone on both sides basically stopped fighting, and Clor was still attacking them.

Clor made his intentions clear... again, he flat out said what he was going to do when he showed up. You don't have to take my word for it, you can just take his.

quote him. you've repeatedly said that he made his intentions clear. then you should be able to quote him. if it was his intent to show up and kill them, why did his hammer just knock everyone off their feet? and it's not like a lot of time passed between Bill's death and the next attack. no one had stopped fighting. they had a quick reaction to Bill's death but i saw no one with their hands over their head.

http://image.comicvine.com/uploads/item/48000/47573/96079-ragnarok_400.jpg

that's not a death threat.

[Capt USA]

More to the point, do we need another Black Goliath? There was a reason they killed the first one off. Or at least a reason he was allowed to be killed off. And it was because he was kind of lame.

I'll disagree, he wasn't lame, he was poorly used by Marvel, there is a big difference. He was allowed to be killed off because Marvel just couldn't find enough space to put him into a story after all we have to have 4 spidey comics, 4 avengers comics and 7 wolvie and his cast of merry men(x-men) comics.

[Will.S]

I'm gonna surprise some people here but Goliath was actually being used by Dan Slott in The Thing and Reggie Hudlin in Spider-Man previous to Civil War.

[Capt USA]

I'm gonna surprise some people here but Goliath was actually being used by Dan Slott in The Thing and Reggie Hudlin in Spider-Man previous to Civil War.

but wasn't some of that due to Civil War coming up, you know propping the guy up so that his death feels important/significant.

[Will.S]

but wasn't some of that due to Civil War coming up, you know propping the guy up so that his death feels important/significant.
I don't recall that being the case though.

Dan just wanted to use him and Reggie as well, I don't think they had the intentions of bringing him back into relevancy solely to just kill him off in a big event. Personally I liked Goliath's appearance in the Thing the most.

[Post-It]

Just when I had forgotten the crime that was Thor's clone ( i wont say its name) I see he is still in convo. Im just happy the Herc bashed its head in and A.) killed that thing B.) Provided the best action scene of CW.

As for Tom, I don't like the premise if he keeps the same powerset. Its boring.

[Monty_Cristo]

Just when I had forgotten the crime that was Thor's clone ( i wont say its name) I see he is still in convo. Im just happy the Herc bashed its head in and A.) killed that thing B.) Provided the best action scene of CW.

As for Tom, I don't like the premise if he keeps the same powerset. Its boring.

his name is Ragnarok and he will be back.

[Will.S]

Just when I had forgotten the crime that was Thor's clone ( i wont say its name) I see he is still in convo. Im just happy the Herc bashed its head in and A.) killed that thing B.) Provided the best action scene of CW.
Clor will be back reeeeal soon.

;)

[Monty_Cristo]

Clor will be back reeeeal soon.

;)

i don't even like the character but i must admit that he is creepy. and he fills that bizzarro-notch real well. my favorite scene was him suddenly sitting up on the autopsy room table after someone made the mistake of calling him a mythical being (or something like that). if i were in that room, i probably would have wet myself.

[Daouda]

i don't even like the character but i must admit that he is creepy. and he fills that bizzarro-notch real well. my favorite scene was him suddenly sitting up on the autopsy room table after someone made the mistake of calling him a mythical being (or something like that). if i were in that room, i probably would have wet myself.

That scene was in Black Panther 24.

It was in the Baxter Building. Thor was on an operating table seemingly unconsciuos.

Reed: "Hopefully, we'll never have to use him again. But That's unlikely. In any case, he's ready to go. Let's Clean him up and see if the new protocols work."

Idiot: "Mr. (!) Richards, you've done some brilliant work today, but I'm still not sure what that is. You cloned the Norse god of Thunder? I mean, Isn't that a Myth?"

CLOR Head Turning!: "I AM NO MYTH!"

All are quite as they reflect fear and surprise at Clor's prone but awake gaze.

Powerful! The writing was outstanding! That whole issue was awesome! :evilsmile


Excelsior!

Daoud

[XPac]

quote him. you've repeatedly said that he made his intentions clear. then you should be able to quote him. if it was his intent to show up and kill them, why did his hammer just knock everyone off their feet? and it's not like a lot of time passed between Bill's death and the next attack. no one had stopped fighting. they had a quick reaction to Bill's death but i saw no one with their hands over their head.

http://image.comicvine.com/uploads/item/48000/47573/96079-ragnarok_400.jpg

that's not a death threat.

Did you read the story? Dazzler said: "Everyone thought you were dead."

Clor said: "No Dagger. That would be you." I'd definately say that qualifies as a death threat. You don't agree?

And look at the book. DId you see anyone fighting after Clor went down? All we see is people either standing around, or Caps team outright running away. Caps side were all in one bunch when THor shot at them, so by that point they obviously weren't engaged in combat with Tony's side.

[DaeJi]

There is no way to justify Clor. He's that bad.

[Will.S]

There is no way to justify Clor. He's that bad.
He's going to turn into something awesome.

[Crowforge]

Bring back the real Black Goliath

[steve2275]

its a family tradition
like the song

[Monty_Cristo]

Did you read the story? Dazzler said: "Everyone thought you were dead."

Clor said: "No Dagger. That would be you." I'd definately say that qualifies as a death threat. You don't agree?

And look at the book. DId you see anyone fighting after Clor went down? All we see is people either standing around, or Caps team outright running away. Caps side were all in one bunch when THor shot at them, so by that point they obviously weren't engaged in combat with Tony's side.

"No Dagger. That would be you" = "you're dead meat" = bad@## posturing

Dagger isn't dead. only Bill, who attacked Clor, is dead. and Cap's team had not stood down. Clor was brought in because they did not surrender. them being in a bunch is just a sign that they were a) preparing to attack again or b) they were looking to run. either will get you shot by a police officer. and Clor's actions are even more justified than a cop's. this was a military conflict.

[XPac]

"No Dagger. That would be you" = "you're dead meat" = bad@## posturing

Dagger isn't dead. only Bill, who attacked Clor, is dead. and Cap's team had not stood down. Clor was brought in because they did not surrender. them being in a bunch is just a sign that they were a) preparing to attack again or b) they were looking to run. either will get you shot by a police officer. and Clor's actions are even more justified than a cop's. this was a military conflict.

Telling someone they are dead is a death threat. That's what death threats do. They tell people they will die.

And a lot more people besides Bill could have been dead if not for Sue Richards. And whether Clor felt justifed in killing them or not is a mute point... he's a Clone. The issue at question is whether Tony or Reed felt justified in Clor killing them, or whether they should have shut him down once Thor demonstrated that he was willing to use lethal force.

I don't think Reed and Tony believed lethal force was necessary (if you think otherwise we can agree to disagree). Which is why I think they should have turned him off once Clor was using it. To me it's that simple. Military conflict or not, If you don't want that thing killing your friends shut the dam thing off.

Honestly, I don't think I'm saying anything that Reed, Tony, or Hank wouldn't be saying in hindsight. They screwed up. Again, milititary conflict or not what possible upside is there to Clor killing any of them? It was a completely unecessary and undesireable outcome on both sides.

[bluedmighty]

I vote nay.

Either let him suit up as a Super villian, or have him be NT.

[ivesaidway2much]

Telling someone they are dead is a death threat. That's what death threats do. They tell people they will die.

And a lot more people besides Bill could have been dead if not for Sue Richards. And whether Clor felt justifed in killing them or not is a mute point... he's a Clone. The issue at question is whether Tony or Reed felt justified in Clor killing them, or whether they should have shut him down once Thor demonstrated that he was willing to use lethal force.That seems kind of harsh. If Clor actually was more man than robot, it would seem kind of cruel to me to disregard his opinions simply because of the way he was brought into the world.

[DamonO]

Hardly. Clor cannot be called a bomb.

The problem is, it's not as simple as "Clor went crazy." The issue is that Bill Foster was actively resisting arrest, and under those circumstances, homicides by the law, while regrettable, are not murder. Combine that with the fact that Bill Foster was at the time charging, while fifty feet tall, at his opponent screaming about his foe's impending demise and, well, had that been a real policeman who fired his gun instead of Clor, then there's no sane way a judge could have found him guilty.

This is demonstrably untrue on several counts.

First of all, Bill Foster did not make any death threats against Clor. He never said anything about Clor's "demise." In fact, the only one talking about killing anyone was Clor. His comment to Dagger, who clearly wasn't confronting him is evidence of that. He arrived on the scene in "kill" mode.

Secondly, you're constantly using the analogy of a cop using lethal force against a suspect, as if a cop is always justified in doing so. But there are laws under which a cop can be prosecuted for murder, if the evidence points to him using excessive force.

Clor could have easily subdued Goliath without using lethal force. The Marvel Universe Handbook states that Goliath, at MAX, is strong enough to lift 20 tons. Thor, on the other hand, is comfortably in Class 100, meaning he can lift well in excess of 100 tons. Even at giant size, Goliath's strength level compared to Thor's is about the same as an eight year old child compared to a full-grown physically fit adult. If an eight year child confronted an adult cop, and the cop used lethal force to subdue him, most rational people wouldn't be saying that the child had it coming. They'd be asking why an grown, physically fit man had to use lethal force to subdue a child.

And Clor certainly would've had an idea how strong Goliath was, seeing as how he shared Thor's memories -- remember how he knew Dagger by name even though he'd never personally met her. Thor had fought for years alongside Hank Pym, and knows that Pym in giant size is nowhere near his own strength level, and that Bill Foster was in the same category.

But if you want further proof that Clor "malfunctioned" during that incident, you need look no further than Hank Pym's and Reed's reaction after it was all over with. Pym immediately started chastising Reed for not having Clor under control, and Reed is clearly shocked by what occurred. The next time we see Clor, he's on an operating table with Reed digging around in his head making adjustments. They certainly wouldn't have been doing that if Clor had performed as he was expected to.

[DamonO]

Back OT: Let's be honest -- No one gave a crap about Bill Foster when he was Goliath, and no one will give much of a crap about Tom Foster as Goliath II.

This is untrue. I liked Bill Foster as Goliath, and I've talked to other fans who did too. And we're all looking forward to his nephew taking over.

Why do folks believe that just because they personally don't like a character everyone else must feel the same way?

[DaeJi]

Why do folks believe that just because they personally don't like a character everyone else must feel the same way?

Because we're right :p ;)

[Will.S]

This is demonstrably untrue on several counts.

First of all, Bill Foster did not make any death threats against Clor. He never said anything about Clor's "demise." In fact, the only one talking about killing anyone was Clor. His comment to Dagger, who clearly wasn't confronting him is evidence of that. He arrived on the scene in "kill" mode.

Secondly, you're constantly using the analogy of a cop using lethal force against a suspect, as if a cop is always justified in doing so. But there are laws under which a cop can be prosecuted for murder, if the evidence points to him using excessive force.

Clor could have easily subdued Goliath without using lethal force. The Marvel Universe Handbook states that Goliath, at MAX, is strong enough to lift 20 tons. Thor, on the other hand, is comfortably in Class 100, meaning he can lift well in excess of 100 tons. Even at giant size, Goliath's strength level compared to Thor's is about the same as an eight year old child compared to a full-grown physically fit adult. If an eight year child confronted an adult cop, and the cop used lethal force to subdue him, most rational people wouldn't be saying that the child had it coming. They'd be asking why an grown, physically fit man had to use lethal force to subdue a child.

And Clor certainly would've had an idea how strong Goliath was, seeing as how he shared Thor's memories -- remember how he knew Dagger by name even though he'd never personally met her. Thor had fought for years alongside Hank Pym, and knows that Pym in giant size is nowhere near his own strength level, and that Bill Foster was in the same category.

But if you want further proof that Clor "malfunctioned" during that incident, you need look no further than Hank Pym's and Reed's reaction after it was all over with. Pym immediately started chastising Reed for not having Clor under control, and Reed is clearly shocked by what occurred. The next time we see Clor, he's on an operating table with Reed digging around in his head making adjustments. They certainly wouldn't have been doing that if Clor had performed as he was expected to.
I never thought that "Clor acting as a cop" held water either.

It's use of excessive force plain and simple. Reed, Hank, and Tony's asses just happen to be covered because it was during a time of upheaval against Registration so it wasn't declared a murder. They broke no law wheras Bill actively doing so even though he didn't deserve that type of death.

That said I don't think anyone expected Bill's untimely death to be the desired result of Clor being unleashed. It's more like:

"We're probably not going to jail for this but man this is a COLOSSAL f*ckup that cost someone their life."

[Daouda]

First of all, Bill Foster did not make any death threats against Clor. He never said anything about Clor's "demise." In fact, the only one talking about killing anyone was Clor. His comment to Dagger, who clearly wasn't confronting him is evidence of that. He arrived on the scene in "kill" mode.

Secondly, you're constantly using the analogy of a cop using lethal force against a suspect, as if a cop is always justified in doing so. But there are laws under which a cop can be prosecuted for murder, if the evidence points to him using excessive force.

Clor could have easily subdued Goliath without using lethal force. The Marvel Universe Handbook states that Goliath, at MAX, is strong enough to lift 20 tons. Thor, on the other hand, is comfortably in Class 100, meaning he can lift well in excess of 100 tons. Even at giant size, Goliath's strength level compared to Thor's is about the same as an eight year old child compared to a full-grown physically fit adult. If an eight year child confronted an adult cop, and the cop used lethal force to subdue him, most rational people wouldn't be saying that the child had it coming. They'd be asking why an grown, physically fit man had to use lethal force to subdue a child.

And Clor certainly would've had an idea how strong Goliath was, seeing as how he shared Thor's memories -- remember how he knew Dagger by name even though he'd never personally met her. Thor had fought for years alongside Hank Pym, and knows that Pym in giant size is nowhere near his own strength level, and that Bill Foster was in the same category.

But if you want further proof that Clor "malfunctioned" during that incident, you need look no further than Hank Pym's and Reed's reaction after it was all over with. Pym immediately started chastising Reed for not having Clor under control, and Reed is clearly shocked by what occurred. The next time we see Clor, he's on an operating table with Reed digging around in his head making adjustments. They certainly wouldn't have been doing that if Clor had performed as he was expected to.

What up DamonO! The will to justify the murder of a character as morally upstanding as Goliath is ridiculous and disturbing.

From a literary perspective Dr. Bill Foster's death can only serve to show either how morally bankrupt or out-of-control, or both, Reed and Tony were.
In-Universe, it was a crime that only went unpunished because of the political position of the perpetrators.

I liked Bill Foster as Goliath, and I've talked to other fans who did too. And we're all looking forward to his nephew taking over.
Hear, Hear!


Why do folks believe that just because they personally don't like a character everyone else must feel the same way?
Because they're wrong.:evilsmile

I never thought that "Clor acting as a cop" held water either.

It's use of excessive force plain and simple. Reed, Hank, and Tony's asses just happen to be covered because it was during a time of upheaval against Registration so it wasn't declared a murder. They broke no law wheras Bill actively doing so even though he didn't deserve that type of death.

That said I don't think anyone expected Bill's untimely death to be the desired result of Clor being unleashed. It's more like:

"We're probably not going to jail for this but man this is a COLOSSAL f*ckup that cost someone their life."

Will.S You are Exactly right!

Great post guys.:)


Excelsior!

Daoud

[Xero]

Tom Foster's growth as a character will be interesting to watch, I'm looking forward to it.

[psm]

Clor could have easily subdued Goliath without using lethal force. The Marvel Universe Handbook states that Goliath, at MAX, is strong enough to lift 20 tons. Thor, on the other hand, is comfortably in Class 100, meaning he can lift well in excess of 100 tons. Even at giant size, Goliath's strength level compared to Thor's is about the same as an eight year old child compared to a full-grown physically fit adult. If an eight year child confronted an adult cop, and the cop used lethal force to subdue him, most rational people wouldn't be saying that the child had it coming. They'd be asking why an grown, physically fit man had to use lethal force to subdue a child.

I don't want to get into the whole argument, but I do want to point out that its pointless to use the Marvel Universe Handbook as a de facto standard. Fictional characters have no true set abilities and will often vary wildly depending on the context of the story and the interpretation of the writer. How many times have we seen a character handle a situation with no problem in one issue but unable to do an almost similar act in another issue.

From the story context I very much doubt that Clor would have been able to easily subdue Goliath. Not saying that he wouldn't have won, but I don't think your comparison of an adult fighting a child is a valid comparison.

[DamonO]

I don't want to get into the whole argument, but I do want to point out that its pointless to use the Marvel Universe Handbook as a de facto standard. Fictional characters have no true set abilities and will often vary wildly depending on the context of the story and the interpretation of the writer. How many times have we seen a character handle a situation with no problem in one issue but unable to do an almost similar act in another issue.

From the story context I very much doubt that Clor would have been able to easily subdue Goliath. Not saying that he wouldn't have won, but I don't think your comparison of an adult fighting a child is a valid comparison.


It is indeed valid. It is a fact that Clor was very much stronger than Goliath was. Goliath, throughout his entire history as a character, has never been depicted as being anywhere near "Class 100" level strength, while Thor has historically been depicted as one of the strongest characters in the Marvel Universe, up there in Hulk category.

Put it this way: Before Civil War, if someone told you that Black Goliath and Thor were going to have a fight, is there a Marvel fan on this planet that wouldn't know how that fight would've turned out?

Clor did not have to use lethal force to subdue Goliath, and that's a fact no matter how people try to spin it.

[psm]

It is indeed valid. It is a fact that Clor was very much stronger than Goliath was. Goliath, throughout his entire history as a character, has never been depicted as being anywhere near "Class 100" level strength, while Thor has historically been depicted as one of the strongest characters in the Marvel Universe, up there in Hulk category.

Put it this way: Before Civil War, if someone told you that Black Goliath and Thor were going to have a fight, is there a Marvel fan on this planet that wouldn't know how that fight would've turned out?

Clor did not have to use lethal force to subdue Goliath, and that's a fact no matter how people try to spin it.

Never said Clor had to use lethal force. Nor did I say Goliath was stronger. And I already stated that I thought Clor would win so I'm not quite sure what you are ranting about. I just said you can't use the Marvel Universe Handbook and that your analogy was faulty. But if you truly believe that the Marvel Universe Handbook is correct then I guess Spider man is stronger than Luke Cage too.

[blackphoenix]

Hmm...I thought he was ALREADY Goliath? He is only taking up the mantle now? Well I have no problem with it. The world needs another gigantic black dude gadding about in skintight spandex...

[Archmage]

Never said Clor had to use lethal force. Nor did I say Goliath was stronger. And I already stated that I thought Clor would win so I'm not quite sure what you are ranting about. I just said you can't use the Marvel Universe Handbook and that your analogy was faulty. But if you truly believe that the Marvel Universe Handbook is correct then I guess Spider man is stronger than Luke Cage too.



ahh... spiderman isn't?

spiderman at last estimate is 20 tons. I don't think Luke Cage is 20 tons ever.

[DamonO]

Never said Clor had to use lethal force. Nor did I say Goliath was stronger. And I already stated that I thought Clor would win so I'm not quite sure what you are ranting about. I just said you can't use the Marvel Universe Handbook and that your analogy was faulty. But if you truly believe that the Marvel Universe Handbook is correct then I guess Spider man is stronger than Luke Cage too.

Ah yes, since I disagree with you, it must be "ranting."

I cited the statistics from the Marvel Universe Handbook because it gives the fans some idea of the differences in strength levels between Goliath and Thor.
Even if it isn't 100% exact, there's no doubt that Thor is much, much stronger than Goliath, not unlike a physically fit adult is much stronger than a kid. If you don't like my analogy, by all means, use your own.

As for Spider-Man being stronger than Luke Cage, that is in no way comparable to the disparity between Thor and Goliath. It in no way invalidates the undisputable fact that Thor could've easily taken down Goliath without using lethal force.

[DamonO]

ahh... spiderman isn't?

spiderman at last estimate is 20 tons. I don't think Luke Cage is 20 tons ever.

I don't know what level Cage is at now -- I think he got powered up sometime in the last few years -- but when he and Spider-Man met for the first time, Spidey mopped the floor with him.

[matthewaos]

Sorry but, this may be completely wrong, but I thought the official handbooks were correct. I mean where can you find correct info, in the stories where every writer writes the character however he sees fit?

[Expletive Deleted]

I mean where can you find correct info, in the stories where every writer writes the character however he sees fit?Yep, pretty much.

Isn't it great?

[HepOne]

I would say a mixture of yay/nay. I fully expected Tom Foster to become Goliath but I'm not happy at how quick it was.

When Tom Foster was first introduced into the MU in Black Panther #23 by Hudlin/Turnbull had controlled anger. His anger at what happened to his uncle gave him drive to crack Pym's formula and become a hero. I expected him to finish studying at M.I.T. (undergrad?phd?) and come up with a better power than JUST GROWING!! He saw what happened to his uncle and Atlas, most other 'growers' also have other powers. Hopefully he graduated off panel so we can have a highly educated black character (like Bill was) and didn't drop out to work for damage control.

The character used by Pak in WWH doesnt even seem to be the same character- he was a whining fool wishing death on the illuminati, who obviously didnt mean to kill Bill. He didnt even look the same.

The way he was used in WWH seemed editorial driven to make up for what happened in Civil War. I'm sure he will be well written in the damage control mini (by McDuffie) but I dont have high hopes for his future after those 3 issues.

[Magneto Rocks]

This is demonstrably untrue on several counts.

First of all, Bill Foster did not make any death threats against Clor. He never said anything about Clor's "demise." In fact, the only one talking about killing anyone was Clor. His comment to Dagger, who clearly wasn't confronting him is evidence of that. He arrived on the scene in "kill" mode.

When he charged at him, Goliath shouted
"Get ready for the shortest return in history, Thor!" Where had Thor returned from, as far as anyone knew? Death. By saying he's going to cut short his return, he's effectively saying he's going to kill him. Did he mean it? Probably not, it's the type of thing one shouts in the heat of battle. But then again, so is Clor's line. One is EXACTLY as much of a threat as the other. Either Clor did not threaten to kill the antis, or Goliath DID threaten to kill Clor, it's literally that simple.

Secondly, you're constantly using the analogy of a cop using lethal force against a suspect, as if a cop is always justified in doing so. But there are laws under which a cop can be prosecuted for murder, if the evidence points to him using excessive force.

Indeed, CAN be

Clor could have easily subdued Goliath without using lethal force. The Marvel Universe Handbook states that Goliath, at MAX, is strong enough to lift 20 tons. Thor, on the other hand, is comfortably in Class 100, meaning he can lift well in excess of 100 tons. Even at giant size, Goliath's strength level compared to Thor's is about the same as an eight year old child compared to a full-grown physically fit adult. If an eight year child confronted an adult cop, and the cop used lethal force to subdue him, most rational people wouldn't be saying that the child had it coming. They'd be asking why an grown, physically fit man had to use lethal force to subdue a child.

Clor does not have the strength of Thor. Hercules made that clear. And that aside, it was in the heat of battle and Goliath was charging towards him bellowing death threats. Clearly having a fifty foot man charging you is going to be different from having a normal man charging you. One is not EXPECTED to think clearly under these conditions, they are the very definition of special circumstance.

And Clor certainly would've had an idea how strong Goliath was, seeing as how he shared Thor's memories -- remember how he knew Dagger by name even though he'd never personally met her. Thor had fought for years alongside Hank Pym, and knows that Pym in giant size is nowhere near his own strength level, and that Bill Foster was in the same category

Clor had nowhere near the strength or durability of Clor, as repeatedly proven.

But if you want further proof that Clor "malfunctioned" during that incident, you need look no further than Hank Pym's and Reed's reaction after it was all over with. Pym immediately started chastising Reed for not having Clor under control, and Reed is clearly shocked by what occurred. The next time we see Clor, he's on an operating table with Reed digging around in his head making adjustments. They certainly wouldn't have been doing that if Clor had performed as he was expected to.

Of course Clor malfunctioned, he *BLEW A HOLE THROUGH GOLIATH*. This does not change the fact that a regular police officer in that position would certainly have done the same thing. The issue really is that Clor was expendable as a machine, and Goliath was not. However, there's a fairly strong case to be made that what Clor did was justifiable homicide, as Goliath was killed as a result of his own actions while resisting arrest. Since there is doubt as to whether Clor himself can be held for it, then certainly Tony, Reed and Hank cannot.

[XPac]

When he charged at him, Goliath shouted
"Get ready for the shortest return in history, Thor!" Where had Thor returned from, as far as anyone knew? Death. By saying he's going to cut short his return, he's effectively saying he's going to kill him. Did he mean it? Probably not, it's the type of thing one shouts in the heat of battle. But then again, so is Clor's line. One is EXACTLY as much of a threat as the other. Either Clor did not threaten to kill the antis, or Goliath DID threaten to kill Clor, it's literally that simple.



Indeed, CAN be



Clor does not have the strength of Thor. Hercules made that clear. And that aside, it was in the heat of battle and Goliath was charging towards him bellowing death threats. Clearly having a fifty foot man charging you is going to be different from having a normal man charging you. One is not EXPECTED to think clearly under these conditions, they are the very definition of special circumstance.



Clor had nowhere near the strength or durability of Clor, as repeatedly proven.



Of course Clor malfunctioned, he *BLEW A HOLE THROUGH GOLIATH*. This does not change the fact that a regular police officer in that position would certainly have done the same thing. The issue really is that Clor was expendable as a machine, and Goliath was not. However, there's a fairly strong case to be made that what Clor did was justifiable homicide, as Goliath was killed as a result of his own actions while resisting arrest. Since there is doubt as to whether Clor himself can be held for it, then certainly Tony, Reed and Hank cannot.

The thing is that Clor is a weapon... so if there's blame to be put out there, it really belongs more with the people operating Clor rather than Clor himself. I don't blame the bullet, I blame the gunman.

In regards to whether what Clor did was justifiable homicice or not... do you think that Tony, Reed, and Hank thought it was justifiable homicide? If they do, then I suppose it was understandable that they let him do what he did. If you don't, then I think there's a good case of negligence in regards to them not stopping Clor.

And I know you've argued before that it was impossible in this situation for them to stop him. So if you wish to cite any actual evidence pointing to that, feel free.

[Alan2099]

"Get ready for the shortest return in history, Thor!" Where had Thor returned from, as far as anyone knew? Death. By saying he's going to cut short his return, he's effectively saying he's going to kill him.
That's a stretch and a half right there. He said he was going to end his comeback. That doesn't even remotley come close to killing somebody.

Clearly having a fifty foot man charging you is going to be different from having a normal man charging you. One is not EXPECTED to think clearly under these conditions, they are the very definition of special circumstance.
Thor typically fought 50 foot tal frost giants on a regular basis. If the clone had his memories, there's no reason why he'd be afraid or startled.

[DamonO]

When he charged at him, Goliath shouted "Get ready for the shortest return in history, Thor!" Where had Thor returned from, as far as anyone knew? Death. By saying he's going to cut short his return, he's effectively saying he's going to kill him. Did he mean it? Probably not, it's the type of thing one shouts in the heat of battle. But then again, so is Clor's line. One is EXACTLY as much of a threat as the other. Either Clor did not threaten to kill the antis, or Goliath DID threaten to kill Clor, it's literally that simple.

To compare what Goliath said to Clor with what Clor said to the anti-registration forces is, at best, a stretch. When Dagger commented to Thor that she thought he was dead, his response of "No, that would be you." clearly is a threat of death. There's no ambiguity there. He's basically telling her that she's going to be dead. The fact that he said it to her when she was in no way threatening him shows that he clearly was a lethal mode as soon as he arrived on the scene. Since when does Thor routinely threaten to kill his opponents, especially women?
Thor -- or any mainstream superhero that I'm aware of -- has never routinely threatened to kill an opponent even "in the heat of battle."

Clor does not have the strength of Thor. Hercules made that clear. And that aside, it was in the heat of battle and Goliath was charging towards him bellowing death threats. Clearly having a fifty foot man charging you is going to be different from having a normal man charging you. One is not EXPECTED to think clearly under these conditions, they are the very definition of special circumstance.

First of all, I think you're exaggerating to say that Goliath's comment -- "Get ready for the shortest comeback in history." -- somehow constitutes a death threat. I don't see it any differently than Ben Grimm telling a foe "Its clobberin' time" before engaging him in battle. Secondly, the scene does not depict Goliath "charging" at Clor. He grows to giant-size to shield his fellow allies, and Clor blasts him dead.

But even if you make the weak argument that Clor was justified in using lethal force because he somehow felt his life was threatened by Goliath, how do you explain the fact that he tried to use the SAME LETHAL FORCE on the anti-forces when they were in full-retreat mode? If it hadn't been for Sue Richards, they'd be dead too, killed while trying to escape from him. Would you argue that he somehow felt threatened seeing his enemies's asses running away from him?


Clor had nowhere near the strength or durability of Clor, as repeatedly proven.

Even if that's the case -- and I'm not sure it was "repeatedly proven" -- Clor was still very much stronger than Goliath. Considering that Thor can lift in the 100s of thousands of tons weight class, even if Clor were half that strong he'd still be way out of Goliath's league. Clor could've very easily taken down Goliath without resorting to lethal force.

Of course Clor malfunctioned, he *BLEW A HOLE THROUGH GOLIATH*. This does not change the fact that a regular police officer in that position would certainly have done the same thing.

This is a poor analogy because you're comparing apples and oranges. A regular police officer isn't capable of lifting 100s of tons like Clor was. Police officers are trained to use lethal force as a last resort, when the situation can't be diffused by other means. Clor easily had other means to take down Goliath. Probably one punch would've done it.

And by the virtue of the fact that even you admit Clor malfunctioned, doesn't that show that he could've handled that situation better? You blame the New Warriors for the event that set the whole thing off due to the way they poorly handled the Stamford incident, yet Clor gets a "pass" just because he's on the pro-reg side?


The issue really is that Clor was expendable as a machine, and Goliath was not. However, there's a fairly strong case to be made that what Clor did was justifiable homicide, as Goliath was killed as a result of his own actions while resisting arrest. Since there is doubt as to whether Clor himself can be held for it, then certainly Tony, Reed and Hank cannot

That's a very weak case. A law enforcement official doesn't have the right to use lethal force against someone resisting arrest if they can subdue the individual through non-lethal means. Tony Stark, Reed Richards, and Hank Pym created Clor, and they are responsible for his programming. If you train a dog to attack, and that dog escapes from his cage (or whatever) and kills someone, the "owners" can be charged with homicide. Law enforcement officials do not have the right to routinely kill people if they don't have to.

[psm]

Ah yes, since I disagree with you, it must be "ranting."

I cited the statistics from the Marvel Universe Handbook because it gives the fans some idea of the differences in strength levels between Goliath and Thor.
Even if it isn't 100% exact, there's no doubt that Thor is much, much stronger than Goliath, not unlike a physically fit adult is much stronger than a kid. If you don't like my analogy, by all means, use your own.

As for Spider-Man being stronger than Luke Cage, that is in no way comparable to the disparity between Thor and Goliath. It in no way invalidates the undisputable fact that Thor could've easily taken down Goliath without using lethal force.

No its "ranting" because you are putting words into my mouth and going off on a tangent that had nothing to do with the points I made. I don't have any problem with you disagreeing with me.

And exactly why doesn't the disparity between the strength levels between Spiderman and Luke Cage have no bearing on our argument? If the Marvel Handbook is incorrect on this point why should we believe that it's correct in other areas?

Lastly, there is no "undisputable" fact that Thor is that much superior in strength to Goliath. In this particular story Goliath could have been nearly as strong as him. I mean we already know the 20 ton max is incorrect. If it weren't then he wouldn't have been able to toss the 18 wheeler (any where between 20 - 40 tons) one handed or knocked around Wonder man (95 tons strength level). Thats not even including the fact that he weighed several more tons that Clor. The kid versus an adult analogy just doesn't apply.

[DamonO]

And exactly why doesn't the disparity between the strength levels between Spiderman and Luke Cage have no bearing on our argument? If the Marvel Handbook is incorrect on this point why should we believe that it's correct in other areas?

Because the disparity between the strength levels between Goliath and Thor (and by extension "Clor") is so much greater than the disparity between the strength levels of Spider-Man and Luke Cage. Even if you were right -- and I"m not saying you are, just using this for an example -- that the Handbook got the strength levels of Spider-Man and Cage wrong, does that automatically mean its also wrong when it says that the Hulk is much, much stronger than Daredevil? One has nothing to do with the other.

Lastly, there is no "undisputable" fact that Thor is that much superior in strength to Goliath. In this particular story Goliath could have been nearly as strong as him. I mean we already know the 20 ton max is incorrect. If it weren't then he wouldn't have been able to toss the 18 wheeler (any where between 20 - 40 tons) one handed or knocked around Wonder man (95 tons strength level). Thats not even including the fact that he weighed several more tons that Clor. The kid versus an adult analogy just doesn't apply

No undisputable fact? How about the fact that in not only Bill Foster's history, but also the history of virtually every single giant character in the Marvel Universe who's growing power is based on Pym particles, almost none of them have ever come anywhere close to being in the "Class 100" (or let's say the "heavy hitter" category, since you seem to abhor anything to do with the Handbook). The only exception to that rule has been Atlas, who was treated with the same process that created Wonder Man before he was exposed to Pym particles.

In over 40 years of comics being published by Marvel, I challenge you to find me even one instance of Hank Pym, or Clint Barton, or Bill Foster defeating one of Marvel's top-tier heavy hitter characters. Heck, most of those guys got their butts kicked by the likes of guys like Namor, who isn't even at Thor level out of the water. Bill Foster debuted as Black Goliath getting his ass kicked by Luke Cage, who's nowhere near Thor or Clor's strength level.

And what difference does it make that he weighs more than Thor does? Would you argue that the Blob could be a serious threat to Superman (if they lived in the same universe) simply because he's bigger and weighs more?

[psm]

Because the disparity between the strength levels between Goliath and Thor (and by extension "Clor") is so much greater than the disparity between the strength levels of Spider-Man and Luke Cage. Even if you were right -- and I"m not saying you are, just using this for an example -- that the Handbook got the strength levels of Spider-Man and Cage wrong, does that automatically mean its also wrong when it says that the Hulk is much, much stronger than Daredevil? One has nothing to do with the other.


Regardless, I showed you an example where the statistic for Bill Fosters's strength level was incorrect. He obviously showed a higher max than 20 tons. I also believe the height maximum dictated by the book for him is also false. Why would you continue to adhere to something you know is wrong? I wouldn't certainly question the validity of any fact that comes out there. Especially, within the context of Civil War where there seem to be quite a few changes from Marvel continuity.


No undisputable fact? How about the fact that in not only Bill Foster's history, but also the history of virtually every single giant character in the Marvel Universe who's growing power is based on Pym particles, almost none of them have ever come anywhere close to being in the "Class 100" (or let's say the "heavy hitter" category, since you seem to abhor anything to do with the Handbook). The only exception to that rule has been Atlas, who was treated with the same process that created Wonder Man before he was exposed to Pym particles.

So Atlas is in the "heavy hitter" category? Then why was Atlas still fighting with Stature in that battle? If he's so superior in strength shouldn't he have finished her off in quickly. Listen, you are trying to quantify something that can't be quantified. Their abilities change for the purpose of the story. Thats how Spiderman beats Firelord. Thats how Hulk gets taken down by a boa constrictor. Stats are all story driven. In this case Goliath appears much stronger than previously stated.


In over 40 years of comics being published by Marvel, I challenge you to find me even one instance of Hank Pym, or Clint Barton, or Bill Foster defeating one of Marvel's top-tier heavy hitter characters. Heck, most of those guys got their butts kicked by the likes of guys like Namor, who isn't even at Thor level out of the water. Bill Foster debuted as Black Goliath getting his ass kicked by Luke Cage, who's nowhere near Thor or Clor's strength level.


Well, of course Luke Cage won. It was his comic. I've also seen him beat Orka who is near the same power level as Namor. Plus, I never said that Bill Foster could defeat Clor. Actually, I stated the direct opposite. My contention is that you don't know his strength level in this story. It obviously doesn't mimic what was stated by you (ergo the Marvel Handbook). So why do you keep insisting that I'm saying that he could defeat Thor or that he is as strong as him. I just don't feel that he's 25% as strong as Clor.

Sidenote, I honestly can't think of any battles where a goliath type character actually fought a top tier strong villain. Usually, the writer (often Roy Thomas) would have goliath (pym or barton) lose a fight by other means (gas, having to shrink to normal size, some stupid gizmo). It never made any sense to me.


And what difference does it make that he weighs more than Thor does? Would you argue that the Blob could be a serious threat to Superman (if they lived in the same universe) simply because he's bigger and weighs more?

And the Blob weighs, what twice as much as Supes? Now imagine if he weighed 50 times. I would say that would make him a more serious threat. It certainly gives him better range in a fight.

[Kage Kisaragi]

no way the kid is a brat. ive been hoping for debris to fall on him.

How does being a Brat detract from the fact the kid wants to be a Superhero? .... Not a Supervillian, a Hero!? Say what you will about characters reaction to tragedy, how some might fold and become a recluse, how some might raise up and go all Super Positive even in the event of a lost love one (ridiciously stupid as it sounds.) but if the kid has good intentions that says a lot more about his character than bitching about whatever might be conceived as "Whiny."

[DamonO]

Regardless, I showed you an example where the statistic for Bill Fosters's strength level was incorrect. He obviously showed a higher max than 20 tons. I also believe the height maximum dictated by the book for him is also false. Why would you continue to adhere to something you know is wrong? I wouldn't certainly question the validity of any fact that comes out there. Especially, within the context of Civil War where there seem to be quite a few changes from Marvel continuity.

Look, FORGET about the Handbook. You don't need it in order to determine the approximate strength range of a character. All you need to do is look at a character's history. Do you assume that Spider-Man is strong enough to be a serious threat to the Hulk just because both characters are super-strong? Most people are rational enough to determine that Spider-Man is nowhere near the Hulk's strength level just by looking at the how strong both characters have been depicted during their histories. Although there have inconsistences and variations as to Spider-Man's strength, its pretty much a given among rational fans that he's nowhere near the Hulk's level. And while you might look at the fact that Spider-Man once knocked out Firelord as evidence that he's a "Hulk level" fighter, I doubt the vast majority of fans would.

Similiarly, if you look at Bill Foster's entire history as Goliath, he has never been depicted as anywhere close to a top-tier, heavy hitter character. In his own short-lived comic he was never depicted as being anywhere close to that level. In his guest-appearances he's never been depicted as anywhere close to that level.


So Atlas is in the "heavy hitter" category? Then why was Atlas still fighting with Stature in that battle? If he's so superior in strength shouldn't he have finished her off in quickly. Listen, you are trying to quantify something that can't be quantified. Their abilities change for the purpose of the story. Thats how Spiderman beats Firelord. Thats how Hulk gets taken down by a boa constrictor. Stats are all story driven. In this case Goliath appears much stronger than previously stated.

Exactly what did Goliath do that would indicate that he's stronger than he'd previously been depicted in his 30+ years as a character. Lifting an 18-wheeler isn't inconsistent with established history, and it definitely doesn't make him anywhere near the level of of a clone of Thor, a character so strong he once supported the weight of a skyscraper.


Well, of course Luke Cage won. It was his comic. I've also seen him beat Orka who is near the same power level as Namor. Plus, I never said that Bill Foster could defeat Clor. Actually, I stated the direct opposite. My contention is that you don't know his strength level in this story. It obviously doesn't mimic what was stated by you (ergo the Marvel Handbook). So why do you keep insisting that I'm saying that he could defeat Thor or that he is as strong as him. I just don't feel that he's 25% as strong as Clor.

I think you're nitpicking here, because it ignores the larger point which is that Goliath is nowhere near Clor's strength level and that Clor could've easily beaten him without resorting to lethal force. What difference does it make if Goliath is 25% as strong, or 30% as strong or 35% as strong? Its still isn't enough to make him a serious threat to the clone of a god who toppled a Celestial once. That's the larger point. Goliath was never a serious threat to Clor. Nitpicking about the Handbook or the analogy I used doesn't change that.

Sidenote, I honestly can't think of any battles where a goliath type character actually fought a top tier strong villain. Usually, the writer (often Roy Thomas) would have goliath (pym or barton) lose a fight by other means (gas, having to shrink to normal size, some stupid gizmo). It never made any sense to me.

Thomas depicted Hank Pym (as Goliath) getting his butt-kicked easily by Hercules, when Herc debuted in the Avengers. Clint Barton (as Goliath) got beaten up by the Sub-Mariner. When Pym was on the original AVENGERS team with the Hulk, the Hulk easily took him down. Didn't even take more than one punch.


And the Blob weighs, what twice as much as Supes? Now imagine if he weighed 50 times. I would say that would make him a more serious threat. It certainly gives him better range in a fight.

So, in your mind, if the Blob weighed 50 times what he does now, he'd be a serious threat against a guy who's actually moved the entire planet out of orbit?

[psm]

Look, FORGET about the Handbook. You don't need it in order to determine the approximate strength range of a character. All you need to do is look at a character's history. Do you assume that Spider-Man is strong enough to be a serious threat to the Hulk just because both characters are super-strong? Most people are rational enough to determine that Spider-Man is nowhere near the Hulk's strength level just by looking at the how strong both characters have been depicted during their histories. Although there have inconsistences and variations as to Spider-Man's strength, its pretty much a given among rational fans that he's nowhere near the Hulk's level. And while you might look at the fact that Spider-Man once knocked out Firelord as evidence that he's a "Hulk level" fighter, I doubt the vast majority of fans would.

And yet, a few months ago there was a scene where Cap and Spiderman defeated the Hulk. Neither of which are even close to Hulk's strength level. Then there's the continuous ass whipping of the Rhino who is in the 80 ton range. So I guess Spiderman would be a threat. But that is neither here nor there.


Similiarly, if you look at Bill Foster's entire history as Goliath, he has never been depicted as anywhere close to a top-tier, heavy hitter character. In his own short-lived comic he was never depicted as being anywhere close to that level. In his guest-appearances he's never been depicted as anywhere close to that level.

Exactly what did Goliath do that would indicate that he's stronger than he'd previously been depicted in his 30+ years as a character. Lifting an 18-wheeler isn't inconsistent with established history, and it definitely doesn't make him anywhere near the level of of a clone of Thor, a character so strong he once supported the weight of a skyscraper.

Which just proves the handbook was never correct. So we really don't know how strong he is. Maybe he could have held up a sky scraper too. Its hard to compare the strength levels of two characters when one has a lot more appearances and is more popular than the other. Do I believe he's as strong as Thor? No but that doesn't mean that Thor completely outshines him either.


I think you're nitpicking here, because it ignores the larger point which is that Goliath is nowhere near Clor's strength level and that Clor could've easily beaten him without resorting to lethal force. What difference does it make if Goliath is 25% as strong, or 30% as strong or 35% as strong? Its still isn't enough to make him a serious threat to the clone of a god who toppled a Celestial once. That's the larger point. Goliath was never a serious threat to Clor. Nitpicking about the Handbook or the analogy I used doesn't change that.

Once again you are putting words into my mouth. Stop it and read what I'm saying! I never said he was a serious threat. Once again, from the top, I simply stated you can't use the Marvel Handbook for your argument. Trying to assign a definitive strength class to a character doesn't work unless it's in broad strokes. There abilities will change depending on the context of the story. Now if you said Thor was a better fighter and stronger than Goliath I would never had said anything. But you tried to state that he was only 20% as strong as Thor and that it would be like a child fighting an adult. I said you are wrong, because the handbook is wrong. Does it change the fact that Clor would have won? No, but that was never my point. And it's not nitpicking when the difference could be more substantial than that. I would put him closer to Rhino's or She Hulk's strength level to be honest.



Thomas depicted Hank Pym (as Goliath) getting his butt-kicked easily by Hercules, when Herc debuted in the Avengers. Clint Barton (as Goliath) got beaten up by the Sub-Mariner. When Pym was on the original AVENGERS team with the Hulk, the Hulk easily took him down. Didn't even take more than one punch.

Thanks, never knew that. Although, I'm not too surprised especially with Pym. It's hard to have a character with an inferiority complex if he wins all the time.


So, in your mind, if the Blob weighed 50 times what he does now, he'd be a serious threat against a guy who's actually moved the entire planet out of orbit?

Depends on which superman. But thats not what I was getting at. It wasn't just the weight but also the size. With him being so large gives him a tactical advantage. Its much tougher to fight someone who's fists are the size of cars and has the range of street block.

[DamonO]

We'll leave it at that.

Anyway, yes, I'd like to see Bill Foster's nephew take over as the new Goliath. Heroes of color tend not to return from the dead, so it'd be nice to Tom Foster carrying on the tradition.

[Sean Whitmore]

Oh, we're back on topic? Very good.

I was all for Tom following in his uncle's footsteps when he was first introduced (I'm assuming Hudlin created him, but if I'm wrong, let me know). But although I liked the way Hudlin wrote him, I was soured on the character by Greg Pak.

Which...wow, is a sentence I honestly never thought I would actually use.


SEAN

[Will.S]

Oh, we're back on topic? Very good.

I was all for Tom following in his uncle's footsteps when he was first introduced (I'm assuming Hudlin created him, but if I'm wrong, let me know). But although I liked the way Hudlin wrote him, I was soured on the character by Greg Pak.

Which...wow, is a sentence I honestly never thought I would actually use.


SEAN
I also thought he came off too whiny under Pak myself.

I hope Dwayne McDuffie doesn't write him like that and clears up a few things.

[Sean Whitmore]

I also thought he came off too whiny under Pak myself.

I hope Dwayne McDuffie doesn't write him like that and clears up a few things.

And a little detached from reality, too. I mean, I can understand him wanting to see Tony suffer, but to sneak into a war zone with a bunch of strangers (some of whom had obvious mental problems) and throw his allegiance behind a big green man and his alien armada? That's a little beyond "Batman" crazy.


SEAN

[DamonO]

And a little detached from reality, too. I mean, I can understand him wanting to see Tony suffer, but to sneak into a war zone with a bunch of strangers (some of whom had obvious mental problems) and throw his allegiance behind a big green man and his alien armada? That's a little beyond "Batman" crazy.


SEAN

Well, in all fairness, he feels like his uncle, who he loved, was murdered and that the people responsible are not being held accountable for the crime. He feels "the system" has let him down. Given that in the world of comics, people grieving over the death of a lost loved one have dressed up like a bat and devoted a career to catching criminals (Batman) and dressed in black with a skull on their chest and started shooting every hoodlum in town (Punisher), I'd say that Tom's actions aren't all that far-fetched. He sees the Hulk as the only means by which he'll see the people responsible for his uncle's murder pay for their crimes (as he sees them).