Why hasn't Kal-L resurrected?

[lovefist911]

Is it because he was older and weaker, especially after flying thru a red sun? Did our Superman really die from Doomsday?

Not that I want yet another Superman thrown into the mix, I was just wondering.

[Lorendiac]

Is it because he was older and weaker, especially after flying thru a red sun? Did our Superman really die from Doomsday?

Not that I want yet another Superman thrown into the mix, I was just wondering.

Did Superman really die when he fought Doomsday in that story arc in 1992 that's collected in "The Death of Superman" TPB? Yes, he did! And then he really came back from the dead!

Does this fact mean Kal-L should automatically come back from the dead? No, it doesn't! (Not even if we assume that his Kryptonian metabolism from the old Earth-2 universe works exactly the same way as the Post-Crisis Modern Superman's Kryptonian metabolism in every important way, which I'm fairly sure it doesn't!)

For that matter, does this mean that our Superman should be expected to automatically come back from the dead again, after a nice peaceful rest, assuming he someday gets killed the same way he did before? No, it doesn't!

Now I'll elaborate on that a bit, working from memory . . .

I believe the Eradicator and Doctor Occult both said in separate conversations (shortly after Superman bounced back from his slight case of death in 1993) that his return had been a million-to-one shot, odd combinations of extremely unlikely circumstances, that had made his return possible, and it would be ridiculous to assume it will ever happen that way again. (More or less in those words.)

For instance, in the scene with Doctor Occult, Lois Lane listened to his explanation of how part of the problem had been that Superman's body, in the tomb, was cut off from the yellow sunlight that could have helped his body regain energy, and she asked brightly, "So if Clark dies again . . . we should just make sure he gets plenty of sun?" and Occult patiently explained that no, Clark had really been dead for awhile there, and without other weird stuff going on that the people in Metropolis didn't have a clue about at the time, all the yellow sunlight in the world couldn't have done a thing to revive him!

I'm paraphrasing from vague memories, but I believe I've got the gist of it. Occult was firmly warning Lois and Clark that if Clark runs out and gets himself killed in battle all over again, that probably will be all she wrote! (Of course, this was published long before Joe Kelly's "Obsidian Age" in which Superman, Batman, and several other JLAers all got killed . . . and then magically resurrected at the very end of the arc! Looks like Clark's lucky streak hasn't ended yet, no matter what Occult thought!)

[Sean Whitmore]

During the Action Comics issues with Eradicator Superman, wasn't there some mention made of Superman only being NEAR death? In a sort of Kryptonian coma, or something equally vague?

That said, I do remember the issue with Doctor Occult, which existed basically to make it clear that Superman's next death would be final. Suggesting that he really was "dead" dead.


SEAN

[Bored at 3:00AM]

The older Superman died because he was older and not as powerful as his younger counterparts. The younger version survived his fight with Doomsday because he was in his prime...not Superboy-Prime, who still hasn't reached his prime.

Optimus Prime has not been reached there....yet. megatron too.

[Buried Alien]

One of the prophecies in JSA at the beginning of this year is that Power Girl would see Kal-L punching his way out of his grave (and that it wouldn't be a dream or hoax). We have yet to see this resolved.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[lovefist911]

One of the prophecies in JSA at the beginning of this year is that Power Girl would see Kal-L punching his way out of his grave (and that it wouldn't be a dream or hoax). We have yet to see this resolved.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

I'm glad I asked this question, but if a pre COIE Earth-1 Supergirl died and never came back to life, I guess the odds of Kal-L coming back are slim too.

Although, there was that Kal-L hand popping out of the grave in JSA #1 that Buried Alien mentioned. But with KC Superman around now, do we really need Kal-L?

[Kid Quick Foots]

Wait, in "Death of Superman" i thought they kinda sorta retconned it to where he really didnt "die" but it was just some coma/illusion cooked up by some villan whos name i cant recall

[Sean Whitmore]

Wait, in "Death of Superman" i thought they kinda sorta retconned it to where he really didnt "die" but it was just some coma/illusion cooked up by some villan whos name i cant recall

You might be thinking of a Brainiac story where he brainwashed everyone in the city into seeing Superman's corpse still in his tomb, leading people to think that the real Superman was just another impostor.

It was a real good one. I like robot Brainiac, but I still miss telepath Brainiac.


SEAN

[rZi]

I was always under the impression superman wasn't killed by doomsday....simply beaten to the point where his heart beat and life signs were really low? so he looked/practicaly was dead kinda thing? ive only read bits of the death arc so can someone clear this up for me?

[BooCoo]

I keep thinking the scene with PG kneeling at the grave is where Kal-L will pop out. It would sure be confusing as heck for him to show up at JLA hall next. Old Supermen everywhere!

[Will.S]

Kal-L is officially dead and I kinda hope they keep it that way.

Mostly because he was supposed to have this really cool inspirational role in Infinite Crisis. I mean really, no matter what you thought of IC you can't tell me that last panel in IC#1 wasn't f'ing cool. Then after that they fought, there was some weirdness with power levels with Kal El apparently having matched strength with Kal-L, and then he and Kal El team up against Superboy Prime.

Outside of that to me it played out pretty much exactly how it was supposed to on Mogo. We really don't need Kal-L back because he already served his purpose as inspiration then as a sad figure but now that we have Kal El back on the saddle again I think he's enough.

[Super Buddies Forever]

Our Superman was dead. They've mentioned a few times that he may not have really been dead but just in a deep coma, but even Batman called him out on that in the recent Red Hood arc saying that it was just an explanation they invented to help them deal with the unthinkable reality of rising from the grave.

It was the combined effects of the Eradicator putting the body in a regeneration pod and a near-death Jonathan Kent pulling Clark's spirit through the gateway between life and death (which, had the body not been getting pumped full of solar energy, would have probably led Clark to a form of damnation instead of a return to life) that brought Superman back to life.

Kal-L wasn't that lucky. No Eradicator, no Byrne Krypton solar pods, and nobody to pull him back. In fact, seeing as how his Lois was already on the other side, I'd imagine he'd be quite content on just staying dead.

[Buried Alien]

Kal-L's dying words seemed to indicate that he wasn't so much dying as he was going somewhere else...the new Earth-2 universe, perhaps?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Will.S]

Kal-L's dying words seemed to indicate that he wasn't so much dying as he was going somewhere else...the new Earth-2 universe, perhaps?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
I wouldn't be surprised if he was revived as a part of the new 52 universes similar to what they did with the Charlton and Captain Marvel characters.

[Lorendiac]

I was always under the impression superman wasn't killed by doomsday....simply beaten to the point where his heart beat and life signs were really low? so he looked/practicaly was dead kinda thing? ive only read bits of the death arc so can someone clear this up for me?

Our Superman was dead. They've mentioned a few times that he may not have really been dead but just in a deep coma, but even Batman called him out on that in the recent Red Hood arc saying that it was just an explanation they invented to help them deal with the unthinkable reality of rising from the grave.

It was the combined effects of the Eradicator putting the body in a regeneration pod and a near-death Jonathan Kent pulling Clark's spirit through the gateway between life and death (which, had the body not been getting pumped full of solar energy, would have probably led Clark to a form of damnation instead of a return to life) that brought Superman back to life.

Kal-L wasn't that lucky. No Eradicator, no Byrne Krypton solar pods, and nobody to pull him back. In fact, seeing as how his Lois was already on the other side, I'd imagine he'd be quite content on just staying dead.

I got interested in this and decided to double-check my recollection of Doctor Occult's lecture on the subject by digging out "Action Comics #692."

First, I'll put you to sleep with a quick explanation of why the Doctor's lecture is not as well-known among modern Superman fans as it should be!

I was buying the four core Superman titles during the time when four guys with S-symbols on their chests (the Cyborg Superman, the Eradicator calling himself the Last Son of Krypton, Superboy, and Steel) were all running wild, and I kept buying them as the real Superman came back and reclaimed his title, and so forth. So I bought "Action Comics #692" when it first came out in 1993, and it wasn't until years later that I examined a copy of the TPB collection called "The Return of Superman" and realized that the last few pages of that TPB only reprinted approximately the first half of the story that was originally published in "Action Comics #692." The first half shows us how Lois and Clark rigged it up for Superman to publicly rescue "Clark Kent" from where he'd been in a caved-in basement for the last month or two, so as to explain how it was that Superman and Clark both just happened to be coming back "from the dead" (presumed death, in Clark's case) at about the same time. That part is in the TPB collection.

But the second half of the story includes Doctor Occult's explanation to Lois & Clark of just how it is that Superman did, in fact, return to the land of the living. That part has never been reprinted in any TPB to the best of my knowledge, so any fan who doesn't actually have a copy of "Action Comics #692" in his collection is basically out of luck!

I'll just quote a couple of the highlights here . . .

DOCTOR OCCULT (speaking to Lois as he shows her Clark's dead body as it was several weeks earlier):
Believe me, I didn't want to put you through this . . . but it was necessary for you to understand just how close he came to final, irreversible departure. Make no mistake, his spirit had fled his body. The energies stored within the body preserved it temporarily -- still, sealed off in that tomb, it would eventually have perished, and then, there could have been no return.

From there, Doctor Occult gives various other details, mainly what Super Buddies Forever summarized in the post I quoted, and then Lois asks a follow-up question.

LOIS:
So are you saying . . . if Superman is ever about to . . . to die again . . . all we have to do is make sure he gets plenty of sun--?

DOCTOR OCCULT:
No, it's not that simple. Superman was very lucky . . . this time. Never forget, his spirit had left the body. A whole chain of events -- physical and metaphysical -- combined with things both of the Earth and of Krypton to restore him to life . . . and some of those elements no longer exist. Your will to live is strong, Superman, but your resurrection is not a repeatable phenomenon. You are mortal, and someday you will die . . . as must we all.

Then, as Doctor Occult says a few last words, basically wishing them luck, he teleports them to a spot near the Kent family farm in Kansas, so that Clark can see his foster parents again for the first time since his death. Then the story really ends. (I guess they were running out of pages in that extra-thick TPB "The Return of Superman" and decided to trim out the last half of "Action Comics #692" on the theory that the lecture wasn't really all that important anyway?)

So Occult was basically saying (paraphrased in my own words): "Yes, you were dead. Yes, your spirit went off on its own -- and left your body behind to receive a funeral and be placed in a tomb. Yes, there was still some energy left in your corpse, however, and yes, that came in handy when your spirit fought its way back into your body. Yes, you were finally able to rise from the dead and gradually start recovering your strength and all that jazz. But you were very, very, very lucky that several weird factors had all piled up just the way you needed them to -- you'd be incredibly foolish if you assumed that it will all work out that way again, the next time you get yourself killed!" :)

P.S. Does that help clarify the answer to the original question (the one lovefist911 posed in the title of this thread) regarding why Kal-L hasn't miraculously come back to life yet (and probably never will)?

[lovefist911]

What if some kind of magic played a part? Magic that can hold a soul from going anywhere? Magic could play a part, being as crazy as it was in IC, you never know. I expect Kal-L to return, do I think he should? No, I don't, but in comics anything can and will happen.

[marshal99]

Didn't they show Kal-L's hand coming out of the grave leaving it open for future resurrection ?!

[Captain Smith]

Any comic universe can resurrect anyone. The DCU clearly has an afterlife and downloads folks as needed.

Personally, I hated them killing Kal-L for a crisis stunt. He is more iconic than the current major continuity doofus. Just as KC Supes is so more noble than the current one.

Let him come back in the final crisis and go retire to Earth 2. PG can go with him to that JSA.

[CMBMOOL]

I much as I dislike the "original" Superman being dead, I suspect that it different rules for resurrection for different earths. :(

[spidervenom]

maybe character's from the old multiverse dont go to an after life maybe they go to that pre crisis limbo thing. you know like in morrisions run on animal man.

[Lorendiac]

Any comic universe can resurrect anyone. The DCU clearly has an afterlife and downloads folks as needed.

Granted, any time someone influential at DC really wants to bring Kal-L back, he can wave his magic wand and say, "Pow! Kal-L is back!" Doesn't even have to provide any sort of "excuse" for the guy's "resurrection" if he doesn't feel like taking the trouble to justify it when he does it!

When I became a regular participant in comic book-related discussions, about three and a half years ago, one of my earliest lengthy posts was a list of different excuses for bringing back dead characters . . . an expanded version of that list is still available right here on the local forums at 17 Excuses for Bringing Back a Dead Character (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=134145)

So yeah, I for one am certainly aware that in theory Kal-L could come back one of these days. Originally my participation in this thread was focused on trying to explain (in response to the original post) why the mere fact that the Modern Superman came back from his duel to the death with Doomsday doesn't mean that Kal-L, the Golden Age Superman, should be expected to "automatically" bounce back out of the grave on the same basic excuse that was used in 1993.

Personally, I hated them killing Kal-L for a crisis stunt. He is more iconic than the current major continuity doofus. Just as KC Supes is so more noble than the current one.

Let him come back in the final crisis and go retire to Earth 2. PG can go with him to that JSA.

I agree with some of that. I didn't like the way they wrote Kal-L while he was alive in "Infinite Crisis," and I didn't like the fact that they then turned around and killed him as a stunt. I thought he deserved much better treatment all around if they were going to use him at all (which I wish they hadn't done in the first place).

But now that his Lois is dead and he is dead, I think the most merciful thing to do is to just sweep it all under the rug and let both of those lovebirds stay dead, to be mentioned as seldom as possible from now on. Continuing to pick at the wound with more Kal-L appearances won't let our psychological scars heal any faster. :mad:

P.S. You suggest that KC Supes was better than the guy we get nowadays in the Superman titles. My opinion is different (not that I'm interested in making lots of excuses for "Modern Continuity Superman," you understand, but still . . . ). I bought KC when it first came out, and my general impression was that Ross and Waid were working hard to tell us that KC Superman had spent the last several years proving what an immature crybaby he was, and now he was trying to make up for lost time -- but too little, too late! :eek:

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Has ayone read the Where's Thy Sting? one-shot? I haven't, but I guess there might be some answers in there.

And I got the impression, after reading Day Of Doom, that Superman never REALLY died.

[Kal L]

Honestly, I do not want to be resurrected. I'm fine chilling here in Heaven with Lois.

Besides, you young whipper snappers already have Kal-El AND Kingdom Come Superman.

DC should forget about resurrecting me and instead focus on bringing Connor Kent back from the grave. His death was far more pointless than mine.

[Captain Smith]

As was his character. Have Lois invite him for heavenly turkey and keep him in the afterlife.

[Angelo2113]

Well Kal-L could actually come back, but not the same one. Because I think in 52, week 52, didn't they say all the Earths had different histories? So Kal-L could've died, but a new one could've been created.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

True. Good theory. We'll see what happens.

[datriadx18]

You might be thinking of a Brainiac story where he brainwashed everyone in the city into seeing Superman's corpse still in his tomb, leading people to think that the real Superman was just another impostor.

It was a real good one. I like robot Brainiac, but I still miss telepath Brainiac.


SEAN

yup thats true

[IdiotGod]

does anyone have the actual scan of the pic where Kal-L's hand comes out of the grave ?

[Mon-el]

does anyone have the actual scan of the pic where Kal-L's hand comes out of the grave ?


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/Mon-el/justice-society-of-america-20061207.jpg

[IdiotGod]

thanks.

as for the topic, i am undecided. Kal-L was the first and best Superman. as powerful as any of the other versions of Supes but with an iconic status none of them can touch.

i'll admit his death wasn't my favorite way to send him off but he's with the one person he cared for most in the world. i don't see any real reason to revive him. let the memory speak for itself

[Buried Alien]

If DC is planning to revive Kal-L *this year*, they'd better hurry the hell up. The year is almost over.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[IdiotGod]

maybe they thought about reviving Kal-L (hence the scene with the grave) but decided on using KC Supes?

and if he comes back, he better be back at his original levels. no more "stalemate regular Supes" nonsense. he should have crushed reg Supes' head in one blow.

[Buried Alien]

maybe they thought about reviving Kal-L (hence the scene with the grave) but decided on using KC Supes?

The solicitation shown on that final page of JUSTICE SOCIETY OF AMERICA (# 10?) from the beginning of this year showed Kal-L and the KINGDOM COME Superman separately. Regardless of whether or not Kal-L was showing up, KC Superman definitely was.

and if he comes back, he better be back at his original levels. no more "stalemate regular Supes" nonsense. he should have crushed reg Supes' head in one blow.

To be fair, Kal-L's *original* power levels were unimpressive by Superman standards: no sustained flight - only 1/8 mile leaps; no vision powers; no supersenses; "only" faster than a speeding bullet, "only" able to take damage equivalent to that caused by a bursting shell.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[IdiotGod]

To be fair, Kal-L's *original* power levels were unimpressive by Superman standards: no sustained flight - only 1/8 mile leaps; no vision powers; no supersenses; "only" faster than a speeding bullet, "only" able to take damage equivalent to that caused by a bursting shell.

you are thinking of Action Comics #1 Superman. you’ve heard of Byrne’s Superman? The notoriously underpowered Superman compared to the later feats? That’s what AC#1 Superman is to everything after it in the 40s.

and that Superman is Byrne’s Superman to the Kal-L of the Silver Age.

a bursting shell?
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b107/Nik_TehPimpXor/Shell.jpg

bursting shell > toipedo?
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b107/Nik_TehPimpXor/Torpedo.jpg

there’s also early 40s Superman taking a shot from a device that could wreck a battle ship in one bolt and Kal was not hurt in the least.

leap 1/8th of a mile?
Is the stratosphere only 1/8th of a mile up? Because Supes can do this in Vol. 1 #4 which was 1940.
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b107/Nik_TehPimpXor/Neight.jpg

is any of this current Superman-level stuff? Not at all. But Kal-L got stronger all throughout the Golden Age and during the Silver Age, he matched PC Earth-1 Kal-el a few times when they fought

sorry to dig into ya. I don’t mean anything by it. Just exploding shells weren’t a threat to Kal-L much after a while and once he hit the Silver Age he got powered up and he was far beyond any bursting shell’s capacity to hurt.

[PatrickG]

sorry to dig into ya. I don’t mean anything by it. Just exploding shells weren’t a threat to Kal-L much after a while and once he hit the Silver Age he got powered up and he was far beyond any bursting shell’s capacity to hurt.[/b]

If you go by the RPG stats which DC folks consulted on, he was a bit less powerful than Supergirl or Superboy and about forty times as powerful as the Byrne Superman. However by IC, Byrne Superman made massive upgrades. He learned how to exceed lightspeed under his own power, realized he didn't need to breathe in space, carried Pluto and the moon under his own power, used his super-hearing to spot trouble 10,000 miles away instantly, learned to combine heat and X-ray vision to melt objects from the inside, etc.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

May I ask where can I find those stats you mentioned?

[rZi]

I can't see him being ressed.....or that he would be of much use when alive in all honesty.

[IdiotGod]

If you go by the RPG stats which DC folks consulted on, he was a bit less powerful than Supergirl or Superboy and about forty times as powerful as the Byrne Superman. However by IC, Byrne Superman made massive upgrades. He learned how to exceed lightspeed under his own power, realized he didn't need to breathe in space, carried Pluto and the moon under his own power, used his super-hearing to spot trouble 10,000 miles away instantly, learned to combine heat and X-ray vision to melt objects from the inside, etc.

i'm gonna go by the comics where it shows Kal-L and E1 Supes stalemating.

also, when did New Earth Superman carry the moon? he needed help moving it.

there's simply no way current main Supes is as powerful as Kal-L. Or as powerful as Kal-L used to be.

[CYOTI]

One of the prophecies in JSA at the beginning of this year is that Power Girl would see Kal-L punching his way out of his grave (and that it wouldn't be a dream or hoax). We have yet to see this resolved.
Actually it turned out to be a dream of Power Girl's.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

i'm gonna go by the comics where it shows Kal-L and E1 Supes stalemating.

also, when did New Earth Superman carry the moon? he needed help moving it.

there's simply no way current main Supes is as powerful as Kal-L. Or as powerful as Kal-L used to be.

Some "theorists" say that current Superman is getting closer to his Pre-Crisis power levels, and that he might even surpass them.

Actually it turned out to be a dream of Power Girl's.

Is that so? I suppose this was stated recently...

[Buried Alien]

Actually it turned out to be a dream of Power Girl's.

If that's the case, then DC has misled us (again).

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Will.S]

With Kal-L dead, Kingdom Come Superman seems to be the one they're pushing in a "older more experienced Superman" direction although he's different in emotional state and background obviously.

[IdiotGod]

Some "theorists" say that current Superman is getting closer to his Pre-Crisis power levels, and that he might even surpass them.

he's got a long way to go. half-strength PC Superman can move planets. current Superman can barely move the moon at his best

[NotSuper]

Kal-L definitely should've been stronger than the post-Crisis Superman. However, it's important to remember that the New Earth Superman is NOT the post-Crisis Superman (as confirmed by Busiek) and the true limits of his powers haven't been shown yet. Personally, I'm of the opinion that Kal-L went easy on the post-Crisis Kal-El during their fight. Had he wanted to, he could've taken his counterpart out. There was also that whole "mind-melding" deal which made the fight a little unorthodox.

[CYOTI]

If that's the case, then DC has misled us (again).
Don't confuse DC with Geoff Johns who took the credit for inserting those panels at the end of issue #1.

[IdiotGod]

Kal-L definitely should've been stronger than the post-Crisis Superman. However, it's important to remember that the New Earth Superman is NOT the post-Crisis Superman (as confirmed by Busiek) and the true limits of his powers haven't been shown yet. Personally, I'm of the opinion that Kal-L went easy on the post-Crisis Kal-El during their fight. Had he wanted to, he could've taken his counterpart out. There was also that whole "mind-melding" deal which made the fight a little unorthodox.

my thoughts too.


I have a few theoriees on why Kal-L was stalemating Kal-el
1. after his Lois died, the person he cared about more than anyone, the heart just went out of him. heart can be important in fiction.
2. perhaps he somehow got weaker over time in the paradise dimension.
i've heard this was said in a Newsarama article but never seen it.
3. the fight wasn't meant to be seen as physical but more symbolic. as seen in AoS the what was truly going on when they were hitting one another was a struggle of philosophies and reality

[Shellhead]

You just have to be patient. Sooner or later, DC and Marvel always bring every major dead character.