What's Superman's H2H rating?

[EC1231]

It just occurred to me that he beats a hell of a lot super-strong, lifelong fighters. Is super-fighting a skillset of his too?

[botch]

No He can't fight, he's just powerful, he can throw a punch and defend himself, but decent fighter he aint.

[Slaughter]

Supes is no doubt one of the best "Super-Fighters." He's not a superpowered Batman, of course, but he was trained by Mongul jr. before the Imperiex War to use his strength and powers in a more efficient way. And to add to that, Supes is, of all heros, the one with more control of his powers. I sincerely doubt that someone with that much control and knowlodge about his powers is "unskilled."

Supes is, in my opnion, of the most skilled fighters with Superhuman powers. Let's see some examples that I can remember...


Ending Battle, part seven (I think). Mongul jr goes in the fray, talks about Superman not being a true warrior and tries to deck Superman. Supes just dodged his blows with superspeed, talked about using Mohamed Ali's tatics, and then decked a tired Mongul jr.

The fight against Doomsday during Joker's Last Laugh. Supes defeated Doomsday using psychology, superspeed's simulated intagibility and well-timed atacks.

The fight against Darkseid in Apokolips NOW! Superman defeated Darkseid by hitting his eyes until Darkseid's eyes closed, impeding Darkseid from using the Omega Effect.

The recent fight against Orion in Death of the New Gods. Supes showed himself to be just as a good fighter as Orion, if not better.

Supes is VERY skilled.

[Gilda Dent]

Look just at how precise he has to be when hitting someone. He can hit ordinary humans hard enough to knock them out without killing or even doing them serious harm.

Think about the degree of control involved in that. I could easily crush a mouse to death, but I don't possess nearly the degree of control to knock one out without causing serious damage, and the difference in strength between a human and a mouse is dwarfed by that between Superman and a regular person.

I have to think that Superman's control extends to more than just how hard he hits.

[livin_target]

Didn't he also beat a relatively high tiered martial artist (Cobra?) on an occasion when he was depowered?

[itsyaboy]

Didn't he also beat a relatively high tiered martial artist (Cobra?) on an occasion when he was depowered?

Yea he did. It wasn't anything fancy. Kobra was acting overconfident and expected Supes to fold quickly. Supes pretty much said that he's been in more of his fair share of fights and pulled out a few good moves which caught Kobra by suprise (I think the first move actually stunned Kobra and Superman took advantage of that) allowing him to win.

To the OP. I think there was an issue or two of the Superman books which showed him practicing some kind of Kryptonian martial arts. Also, that thousand years of him warring it up in Asgard. I don't put stock in either of those though.

[Slaughter]

Didn't Kobra beat Batman in a hand-to-hand fight already?

[Sean Whitmore]

Since the Silver Age, Superman has been capable of defeating several attackers at once even in stories where he was powerless.

Beyond that, we know the Justice League has sparring sessions, which makes it likely he's learned some pointers from Wonder Woman. And we also know Supes pays attention to how Batman defeats more powerful opponents.

So without actually ranking him or anything lame like that, it's safe to assume that he's about as skilled a fighter as most anyone in the hero biz (aside from all the ninja people).


SEAN

[Spamotron]

The extent of Superman's formal training is something none of the writer's can agree on. IIRC Based on a interview Mark Waid's version of Superman trained extensively in the Martial Arts in his quest for self-control while globetrotting when he was younger. I believe that on this very board Kurt Busiek has stated that while a good fighter Superman's main teacher is experience and he only recieved a couple pointers here and there.

One thing to keep in mind is that when Superman is in a fight he is almost always: A. Outnumbered B. Facing oponents in his own power ballpark or higher C. Against weapons designed specifically to exploit his weaknesses D. Forced to hold back due to innocent bystanders or E. Several to All of the above.

He has gotten into fights of such nature 2 to 3 times a week every week for the past 10+ years comic time. You fight that much and live and you get very, very good at fighting. Formally trained or not.

[Sijo]

Didn't Kobra beat Batman in a hand-to-hand fight already?
If you're referring to the figth Bats had against Kobra in an Outsiders story, I remember Kobra bloodied him a little, but Bats just smiled (as if saying, "finally, a challenge") and continued the fight; I don't recall either one shown as a winner. This was years before his training with Lady Shiva, however.

As for Superman, yeah, his skill has fluctuated with the stories; officially he DID have martial arts training since his Byrne days. Personally, I think that's unnecessary. He's one of the world's strongest beings AND he's a martial arts master? Not to mention all his other powers. It's a bit too Mary Suesh. I tend to go with each DC hero standing on their own: many can have superspeed, but Flash *has* to be the fastest, because that's his shtick. Likewise, Batman is the smartest, and Supes is the strongest. They can be competent in other areas, but to say, for example, that a depowered Supes is as good a fighter as Kobra is bit much. (My recall of that is that he held his own, mostly because Kobra underestimated him; besides neither of them was in their original bodies, it was a body-switching story.)

[Sean Whitmore]

He's one of the world's strongest beings AND he's a martial arts master? Not to mention all his other powers. It's a bit too Mary Suesh.

Invalid usage of term alert.


SEAN

[Duy]

No He can't fight, he's just powerful, he can throw a punch and defend himself, but decent fighter he aint.
If this were true, he should continually lose to people who have an even or almost even match with him when it comes to strength and powers, and have hand-to-hand training, like Diana and Orion. But he doesn't, so he must have some level of fighting skill.

[Sijo]

Invalid usage of term alert.


SEAN
It's pretty common over in fanwriting message Boards, actually. And Mary Sue characters aren't limited to fanfiction, either. *cough Beyonder cough* ;)

[Superbeast]

I think Lobo summarised Supes fighting skills nicely. I can't remember the exact line but it was something like "You got power Supes but you still fight like a girl scout."

[Sean Whitmore]

I think Lobo summarised Supes fighting skills nicely. I can't remember the exact line but it was something like "You got power Supes but you still fight like a girl scout."

It was something like, "You duke it out like a butler, and I fight like a mad dog."

Though if I remember right, the Eradicator was messing with Superman's head during that fight, which helps to explain why he did so poorly.


SEAN

[Slaughter]

It was something like, "You duke it out like a butler, and I fight like a mad dog."

Though if I remember right, the Eradicator was messing with Superman's head during that fight, which helps to explain why he did so poorly.


SEAN


It was in "Day of the Krypton Man", right? The one fight where Superman's head was a mess and Lobo's was drunk like a fish!

I think a better fight was after Superman's Return from death. He pretty much owned Lobo there.

[Sean Whitmore]

It was in "Day of the Krypton Man", right? The one fight where Superman's head was a mess and Lobo's was drunk like a fish!

Yep, that was the one. Superman can't be blamed too much for losing; besides the Eradicator messing up his headspace, Supes just wasn't used to fighting someone who was both as strong as him, and threw himself into battle like a drunken sailor on payday.

And when Lobo got his hands on kryptonite halfway through the fight, hell, it was game over. :)


I think a better fight was after Superman's Return from death. He pretty much owned Lobo there.

That was a fun fight (as I recall, it was an anniversary issue with the gimmick of a Colorform cover). It was in the midst of a storyline where Superman's powers were growing out of control, and he punched Lobo into orbit without even meaning to.


SEAN

[666MasterOfPuppets]

It's pretty common over in fanwriting message Boards, actually. And Mary Sue characters aren't limited to fanfiction, either. *cough Beyonder cough* ;)

Can anyone explain this term to me? Thanx. :o

[666MasterOfPuppets]

To the OP. I think there was an issue or two of the Superman books which showed him practicing some kind of Kryptonian martial arts. Also, that thousand years of him warring it up in Asgard. I don't put stock in either of those though.

Torquasm-Vo. And during the Silver Age, it was Klurkor.

[Sean Whitmore]

Can anyone explain this term to me? Thanx. :o

There are two answers to that.

The real one is that the term "Mary Sue" comes form a particular Stark Trek fan story, and is used to describe a certain type of fan-created character, usually a self-insertion of the writer's, who has nothing but the most desirable qualities, and is held in high regard by all the other characters.

On the internet, 9 times out of 10, "Mary Sue" is shorthand for "I don't like that character".


SEAN

[foxley]

There are two answers to that.

The real one is that the term "Mary Sue" comes form a particular Stark Trek fan story, and is used to describe a certain type of fan-created character, usually a self-insertion of the writer's, who has nothing but the most desirable qualities, and is held in high regard by all the other characters.

On the internet, 9 times out of 10, "Mary Sue" is shorthand for "I don't like that character".


SEAN

Mary Sues are not limited to fan-fiction. Even die-hard Star Trek fans regard Wesley Crusher as a 'Mary Sue'.

If you're interested in the Mary Sue phenomenon, I'd check out this link:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.MarySue

[666MasterOfPuppets]

There are two answers to that.

The real one is that the term "Mary Sue" comes form a particular Stark Trek fan story, and is used to describe a certain type of fan-created character, usually a self-insertion of the writer's, who has nothing but the most desirable qualities, and is held in high regard by all the other characters.

On the internet, 9 times out of 10, "Mary Sue" is shorthand for "I don't like that character".


SEAN

Mary Sues are not limited to fan-fiction. Even die-hard Star Trek fans regard Wesley Crusher as a 'Mary Sue'.

If you're interested in the Mary Sue phenomenon, I'd check out this link:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.MarySue

Thanx to both of you for the very fast replies. And very complete, I must say.

[Sean Whitmore]

Mary Sues are not limited to fan-fiction. Even die-hard Star Trek fans regard Wesley Crusher as a 'Mary Sue'.

There is some discussion to be had on that score, especially since we have an entire generation of fans-turned-writers (especially in comics, but other mediums too).

But Rodenberry sure doesn't fall into that category, especially by the 80s. I think the claims of Mary Sueism toward Wesley really amount to "I find this kid annoying and I don't like the storyline that's being told with him". Which is perfectly fair, I just don't think it needs a term ascribed to it.


SEAN