DareDevil Annual #1 *Spoilers*

[drwho]

My largest complaint on this book had to do with the art. I felt it looked way too sketchy in some parts. Other complaints I had was it seemed to follow typical themes. Villain gets out of jail and wants to make amends for all the crimes he committed Punisher like. It also seemed odd to me that Matt revealed his DD i.d. to the Black Tarantula( I can't even recall the guys name) and even took him out on a few patrols. All that work to keep his identity hidden and then showing this ex low life. There were some funny parts and the dialogue was good just this book seemed way too predictable to me. It reads well just isn't anything special.

[Ullar]

I thought it was really good. I hope we see more Black Tarantula.

[drwho]

To me it just seems like the type of character introduced in this book. Black Tarantula is just White Tiger all over again. Nothing special about him or that makes him stand out in my opinion.

[Expletive Deleted]

I actually thought the art was the best part. It had a nice 100 BULLETS-type feel to it that really suited the material. I've only had limited exposure to Fernandez's work (his PUNISHER and QUEEN & COUNTRY arcs), but this was easily the best of what I've seen. I don't know if it was the colorist, the inker, or what, but I'd buy something from this art team again in a heartbeat.

The story . . . eh, it was all right. Nice character piece. I'm not super-enthused about Black Tarantula becoming yet another villain-turned-dark-hero, but I guess we'll see where Ed takes it.

[Ullar]

To me it just seems like the type of character introduced in this book. Black Tarantula is just White Tiger all over again. Nothing special about him or that makes him stand out in my opinion.
I meant I wanted more BT in DD. I don't want him to get a solo mini even if it is by Bru it wouldn't be good unless DD played a major role.

[Pyro]

Who decided it would look cool for Black Tarantula to have two collars? That looked so stupid. Otherwise, he had a pretty sweet costume.

This annual was alright. It wasn't anything special but it was mildly interesting.

[Toboe]

It was a nice little story but nothing out of the ordinary. I like that Brubaker is following on the Black Tarantula status after his first arc, and I hope he'll do something else with him beyond the Robin Hood archetype.
Art was lovely and fitted the story.

[PunisherFan]

Decent story but I can't see anything else being done w/the character as a good guy... should have just came out as a villain

[ultramandingo]

....... i dug it . so the best time to do crime in hells kitchen is flu season , who knew . what ever happened to the other Tarantula with the pointy shoes ?

[HankMcCoy]

It also seemed odd to me that Matt revealed his DD i.d. to the Black Tarantula

Carlos already basicly knew matt was daredevil, and once he witnessed the riot in rykers, all doubt would have been removed. I thought the issue was a great read and I like Carlos' character.

[littleredhat]

That is not the Black Tarantula that apeared in Amazing Spider-Man #419 to #436.

That Black Tarantula was an aristicratic and reserved mastermind that always spoke in an extreamly polite maner even during combat. Like ridiculously polite.
For example upon smashing a reining New York Crime Lords wall and stepping casually through he said.
"Please forgive this intrusion Don Fortunato,I have learned through means
innapropriate to divulge,that I was to be the topic of today's conversation.

I prefer to present my case in person. I am the Black Tarantula and I respectfully request your blessing to expand my interests into the the New York area."

He would never spout street slang.

The real Black Tarantula came from a criminal legacy that suposedly dates back to Marco Polo's first trips and has strong ties to an offshoot of the Hand
called the True Believers.

He was often depicted loungeing in lavish lairs or studies drinking wine and doleling out orders to various minions around the world.

Street thuggery is beneth him and always has been.


So who apeared in this comic claiming to be him?

My three guesses?

A Skrull.

An Alpha.(See She Hulk #21)

El Uno. One of the real Black Tarantula's Henchmen. He has impersonated his master before.

[drwho]

Ha you forgot one other important possibility.

Bad character and editorial research. I doubt that character is important enough to be a skrull.

[Expletive Deleted]

Prison can change people.

[jackolover]

I don't know how they arrested and imprisoned Black Tarantula. Carlos had beaten Spiderman like brushing his teeth, and he has a crime network reaching from South America to the US. I'm guessing Peter Parker ratted on him when Stark asked him for all the names of the bad guys who have beaten him.

But now that the Tarantula is back on the loose, I can see him as the natural head of crime in old New York, not this Hood character. Black Tarantula has the credentials, but Hood is a nobody stepping out of his class. I see the re-introduction of Tarantula as the first steps towards Marvel making Carlos fill the void of Hammerhead and other crime bosses who used to line themselves up against the Kingpin. Carlos is another Norman Osborn, in the same class and with similar power.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Prison can change people.

I dunno, it didn't change Kingpin, Bullseye, Hammerhead, Daredevil or Punisher as radically as it changed Black Tarantula.

I can't judge fairly as I've not read the issue yet, but from some of the comments I think the concern I expressed earlier was valid. Seems like Black Tarantula's taken a step down. I'm curious though, at what level were his powers?

Now, that said, the story ain't over. It's entirely possible Brubaker's gonna do with BT the same route Bendis went with DD, taking over a criminal organization so as to better protect people and contrast the two characters while exploring the flaws in that reasoning. I'm all for anything that gives villains characterization, which is often lacking in too many comics. Hope and Brubaker springs eternal! ;)

[static]

although i appreciate everyone jumping to conculsions and blaming "bad editorial" for not keeping the black trantula similar to his first appearence waaaay back in spidey 134. it might be good to note that was the Trantula not the Black Trantula ...they are two different guys lol ...

[The Cool Thatguy]

although i appreciate everyone jumping to conculsions and blaming "bad editorial" for not keeping the black trantula similar to his first appearence waaaay back in spidey 134. it might be good to note that was the Trantula not the Black Trantula ...they are two different guys lol ...

Umm, what's your point?

[Expletive Deleted]

...they are two different guys lol ...I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone here is confused on that point.

[littleredhat]

although i appreciate everyone jumping to conculsions and blaming "bad editorial" for not keeping the black trantula similar to his first appearence waaaay back in spidey 134. it might be good to note that was the Trantula not the Black Trantula ...they are two different guys lol ...


I know they are two different guys. This one first apeared in Amazing Spider-Man #419. And though it was hinted that he and the 134 tarantula were connected in some way they were established to be different people quite clearly.

What I am upset about is that the Black Tarantula is nothing like he was when he first apeared.

[Rahul]

This annual was a disappointment. The Art was gritty and good, but the whole 'Black Tarantula turning the other leaf' was very predictable from the first page, and wasn't all that engaging.

Still, there's the ongoing, thats good...

[rpriske]

Very good story.

Very bad art.

[StoneGold]

I dunno, it didn't change Kingpin, Bullseye, Hammerhead, Daredevil or Punisher as radically as it changed Black Tarantula.


It changed DD hardcore. It's only due to the intervention of the Punisher that he didn't go over the edge. Honestly, I'd argue it changed Castle the first time, too. Given he was totally over the edge when he went in during the 80s, and it gave him the time to refocus his mission.

[The Cool Thatguy]

It changed DD hardcore. It's only due to the intervention of the Punisher that he didn't go over the edge. Honestly, I'd argue it changed Castle the first time, too. Given he was totally over the edge when he went in during the 80s, and it gave him the time to refocus his mission.

No, it was his entire life falling apart that pushed DD near the edge, not just prison. Being in Rykers was simply (almost) the last straw.

[StoneGold]

No, it was his entire life falling apart that pushed DD near the edge, not just prison. Being in Rykers was simply (almost) the last straw.

That's semantics. I mean, hell, if you want to play that game, prison doesn't change anyone, it's the arrest, or the crime that led up to the arrest. Being surrounded by all his worst enemies, with little to no power, changed him. Plain and simple.

[drwho]

Is Black Tarantula a mutant? Anyone know how he got his powers?

[The Cool Thatguy]

That's semantics. I mean, hell, if you want to play that game, prison doesn't change anyone, it's the arrest, or the crime that led up to the arrest. Being surrounded by all his worst enemies, with little to no power, changed him. Plain and simple.

It's hardly semantics. Even before the arrest, DD was under an amazing amount of stress, which climaxed with him being arrested. And while in prison, his best friend getting knifed and 'killed'.

Plenty of criminals have gone in and out of the MU prison system without changing as radically as BT. To simply say 'it's prison' doesn't wash, IMO.

[StoneGold]

It's hardly semantics. Even before the arrest, DD was under an amazing amount of stress, which climaxed with him being arrested. And while in prison, his best friend getting knifed and 'killed'.

Plenty of criminals have gone in and out of the MU prison system without changing as radically as BT. To simply say 'it's prison' doesn't wash, IMO.

And some have. The Matador went straight after a prison stretch. Then a Scourge tried to kill him. There have been a number of characters who have tried to walk the straight and narrow after getting out of prison. They just usually fail, as Black Tarantula may or may not have, depending on how you want to interpret him becoming a Robin Hood-style vigilante. But to say that prison didn't change Murdock... what can I say, I read the story, you're wrong. Were there other factors? Yes. Was prison one of those factors? Definitely.

[The Cool Thatguy]

And some have. The Matador went straight after a prison stretch. Then a Scourge tried to kill him. There have been a number of characters who have tried to walk the straight and narrow after getting out of prison. They just usually fail, as Black Tarantula may or may not have, depending on how you want to interpret him becoming a Robin Hood-style vigilante. But to say that prison didn't change Murdock... what can I say, I read the story, you're wrong. Were there other factors? Yes. Was prison one of those factors? Definitely.

But it was by no means the greatest factor, and it didn't change him as much as it did Black Tarantula. Though granted, Black Tarantula's background was drastically changed in the annual itself...

[littleredhat]

Is Black Tarantula a mutant? Anyone know how he got his powers?

No he is not. This is the Black Tarantula.

http://www.answers.com/topic/black-tarantula?cat=biz-fin

A Brazilian super powered crime lord ninja with a 700 year legacy,his own ninja clan and a strong sense of honor.

So who was beating up Yakuza in this book?

[Will.S]

From what I read of that Answers.com page, I don't see anything in this book that contradicts his history and his speech patterns aren't a big deal since people will adjust to prison lingo which can either go away easily or take a while to transition out of.

Anyway, I enjoyed the annual and Fernando's art. Like Expletive said, it's kind of like Risso's art on 100 bullets and it really gives the story a weighty feel, I especially loved the height and weight differential between Black Tarantula and DD. I also liked the story about Black Tarantula from his past to him going back to where he came from and kicking some ass while he's there. I can pretty much say that I'd look forward to seeing more of him.

This would grade this a 7.5/10

[EnDwiGast]

I enjoyed the Annual.

I suspect, just like with the issue of the ongoing that focused on Milla - that this story is a set-up for upcoming events in Daredevil. I could of course be way off, but it had that sort of feel for me.

I think I'd like to see Black tarantula be added to daredevil's supporting cast - or at least his corner of the world.

[Web_Spinner]

Why does DD steal all of Spideys interesting villains??? lol!

I'd love to see the tarantula take on Spidey again, he really was too much for the webhead to handle and Spidey only barely survived.

[EnDwiGast]

Why does DD steal all of Spideys interesting villains??? lol!

I'd love to see the tarantula take on Spidey again, he really was too much for the webhead to handle and Spidey only barely survived.

This appearance of Black tarantula was the first I've ever read.

How often was he being used in Spider-Man?

[drwho]

I could see Black Tarantula being more like an Iron Fist villain. Cus you gotta be tougher than dd to take him on.

[Nefarius]

This appearance of Black tarantula was the first I've ever read.

How often was he being used in Spider-Man?

This will help you.


http://www.spiderfan.org/characters/black_tarantula.html

[The Cool Thatguy]

From what I read of that Answers.com page, I don't see anything in this book that contradicts his history and his speech patterns aren't a big deal since people will adjust to prison lingo which can either go away easily or take a while to transition out of.

Anyway, I enjoyed the annual and Fernando's art. Like Expletive said, it's kind of like Risso's art on 100 bullets and it really gives the story a weighty feel, I especially loved the height and weight differential between Black Tarantula and DD. I also liked the story about Black Tarantula from his past to him going back to where he came from and kicking some ass while he's there. I can pretty much say that I'd look forward to seeing more of him.

This would grade this a 7.5/10

I see plenty. Him corrupting 'Little Loco', for instance. In his first battle with Spider-Man, Black Tarantula beats Spidey into paste, but allows him to live so that he can rescue Norman (the Goblin's grandchild). In his last appearance, Black Tarantula willingly leaves a battle that he'd won so as not to traumatize his son.

What's more, the flashback depicts Black Tarantula with dozens of gang tattoos, yet in Spider-Man he appeared legitmate enough to fool his wife for a considerable amount of time. Call me crazy, but I think all those tattoos would be a tip off (though in fairness, she does fall in with the wrong crowd. She was dating the nephew of Fortuno(sp))

The flashback also depicts him as a local gang leader, instead of in Spider-Man where he was a considered an equal of the then Hydra backed Kingpin.

As I predicted, Black Tarantula's being remolded to fit into DD's noir atmosphere. He's a square peg being forced into a round MS-13 archtype hole. As a fan from his previous depictions, I can't help but be disappointed.

[Gloria]

Why does DD steal all of Spideys interesting villains??? lol!

I'd love to see the tarantula take on Spidey again, he really was too much for the webhead to handle and Spidey only barely survived.

It might be... Villains prefer to be in the DD series because they'll be better written?:p

Now, honestly, maybe the Black Tarantula that appeared in Spiderman wasn't like the Black Tarantula in the DD Annual... But then the Wilson Fisk that appeared recently in the Spiderman series hardly resembled the intelligent underworld leader we have seen admirable pictured in "Daredevil". Fisk was wrongly and badly used there... Maybe it's a matter of getting even ;)

[Dagger]

I'd love to see more of Black Tarantula in this book. He'd be great as being a sometimes ally, sometimes nemesis because they dont' always agree on the methods and things that they other does. Didn't really care for the art in this book, but it wasn't horrible imo, just didn't fit the story I guess.

[The Cool Thatguy]

It might be... Villains prefer to be in the DD series because they'll be better written?:p

Now, honestly, maybe the Black Tarantula that appeared in Spiderman wasn't like the Black Tarantula in the DD Annual... But then the Wilson Fisk that appeared recently in the Spiderman series hardly resembled the intelligent underworld leader we have seen admirable pictured in "Daredevil". Fisk was wrongly and badly used there... Maybe it's a matter of getting even ;)

Given his back ground, Kingpin works better in the noir focused world of Daredevil than the super hero world of Spider-Man, it's only natural.

But on the same token, Black Tarantula will likely suffer. He's simply too powerful to work on a 'street' level for too long. The quasi-mystical elements and family history that set him apart from the other Tarantulas will likely be downplayed or forgotten.

Really, Kingpin and Black Tarantula are two entirely different characters who happen to engage in crime. There's no reason to think that what might be good for one will be good for the other.

[EnDwiGast]

This will help you.


http://www.spiderfan.org/characters/black_tarantula.html

Thank you. :) This is a good chance to plug Spider-Fan.org or Grand Comic Book Database or wikipedia or marvel Chronology Project. Some excellent examples of webistes that are out there that I use all the time when I want to do my own research.

I was hoping a Spider-fan would just give me a simple many or few kind of answer. It does not look like Black Tarantula has made that many Spider-man appearances, so it seems to me it is better that he be used in daredevil than stuck in limbo with so many Spider-Man villains.

[PunisherFan]

....... i dug it . so the best time to do crime in hells kitchen is flu season , who knew . what ever happened to the other Tarantula with the pointy shoes ?

He was called Tarantula, the other turned into a spider and jumped into a hail of police gunfire, the 2nd one was only used a few times, most of which were in a Punisher:Eurohit story. The 2nd one died as a backup story in Venom limited series as part of some bizarre Jury inititation thing by some chick named Whysper

[Will.S]

I see plenty. Him corrupting 'Little Loco', for instance. In his first battle with Spider-Man, Black Tarantula beats Spidey into paste, but allows him to live so that he can rescue Norman (the Goblin's grandchild). In his last appearance, Black Tarantula willingly leaves a battle that he'd won so as not to traumatize his son.

What's more, the flashback depicts Black Tarantula with dozens of gang tattoos, yet in Spider-Man he appeared legitmate enough to fool his wife for a considerable amount of time. Call me crazy, but I think all those tattoos would be a tip off (though in fairness, she does fall in with the wrong crowd. She was dating the nephew of Fortuno(sp))

The flashback also depicts him as a local gang leader, instead of in Spider-Man where he was a considered an equal of the then Hydra backed Kingpin.

As I predicted, Black Tarantula's being remolded to fit into DD's noir atmosphere. He's a square peg being forced into a round MS-13 archtype hole. As a fan from his previous depictions, I can't help but be disappointed.
I don't mind all of this stuff because it could all just as easily fall between the lines. I still enjoyed his use here regardless, he's back, he was used in an entertaining context, and he's active again so that's all that matters to me even if I haven't read everything about him.

Given his back ground, Kingpin works better in the noir focused world of Daredevil than the super hero world of Spider-Man, it's only natural.
That depends on how the writer uses him. Kingpin works amazingly well as a Spider-Man villain in Ultimate Spider-Man due to the way Bendis writes him into the book.

[ultramandingo]

As I predicted, Black Tarantula's being remolded to fit into DD's noir atmosphere. He's a square peg being forced into a round MS-13 archtype hole. As a fan from his previous depictions, I can't help but be disappointed.

......kinda like how miller " remolded" , the about to be canceled daredevil into the whole ninja , hand , elecktra , kingpin "atmosphere" - im sure a marvel got a lot of " bring back leap frog and man bull " nerd mail

[StoneGold]

......kinda like how miller " remolded" , the about to be canceled daredevil into the whole ninja , hand , elecktra , kingpin "atmosphere" - im sure a marvel got a lot of " bring back leap frog and man bull " nerd mail

Why do you hate fun?

[ultramandingo]

.....i only write angry jughead jones nerd mail

[The Cool Thatguy]

I don't mind all of this stuff because it could all just as easily fall between the lines.

If that's the case, there's so much 'between the lines' he might as well be a different character. And by then, what's the point?

That depends on how the writer uses him. Kingpin works amazingly well as a Spider-Man villain in Ultimate Spider-Man due to the way Bendis writes him into the book.

I've addressed this it seems like a million times yet it never seems like anyone listens.

Kingpin can work in both Spider-Man and Daredevil because of the nature of his character. As a mob boss, it's pretty easy to transplant him from DD's noir tone to Spider-Man's superhero tone.

That's not as easily accomplished with Black Tarantula. Even ignoring his family past (and make no mistake, Brubaker did exactly that), he's simply too powerful to hang out in DD's world for too long. So as a result, the elements that made him stand out and note worthy as a villain get played down and we're functionally left with a different character.

Black Tarantula doesn't work when dragged into DD's street realism because he was never intended to function there, unlike Kingpin who was based (operationally) on real mobsters but given some supervillain tactics.

[Will.S]

If that's the case, there's so much 'between the lines' he might as well be a different character. And by then, what's the point?
Sometimes it's nice to see a character again and put in a current context.

From what I see Black Tarantula was created in 97, I don't know what the last point in time was in which he was used but it looks like he underwent some deliberate change since Ed brought him back in DD on top of the whole prison thing. While I'm not sure what exactly goes through Ed's mind it looks like he didn't want to create a brand new character because he thought that there was enough of a base to build on with his past affiliations to crime.

I'm not going to tell you you're wrong for nitpicking as you know more about the character than I do and have valid complaints but perhaps that's why I enjoyed the book more and didn't have any problems with the character.

Kingpin can work in both Spider-Man and Daredevil because of the nature of his character. As a mob boss, it's pretty easy to transplant him from DD's noir tone to Spider-Man's superhero tone.

That's not as easily accomplished with Black Tarantula. Even ignoring his family past (and make no mistake, Brubaker did exactly that), he's simply too powerful to hang out in DD's world for too long. So as a result, the elements that made him stand out and note worthy as a villain get played down and we're functionally left with a different character.

Black Tarantula doesn't work when dragged into DD's street realism because he was never intended to function there, unlike Kingpin who was based (operationally) on real mobsters but given some supervillain tactics.
Ok but this was like what one story where he's with Daredevil outside of jail and slowly getting his powers back?

For all we know he was just introduced to us through the DD title and he's going to hang around the MU and around various titles like New Thunderbolts or he's going to get an offer from the Hood in here and he'll team up with him to face the New Avengers, or maybe he'll become a Hood rival.

Characters tend to change their lifestyles pretty quick, I mean look at Armadillo. In one book he's a Texas Ranger, then in another book he's back to criminal activity again. Even if Black Tarantula shows up again in DD, I'm sure Ed can work around his power levels like he did here. So far he knocked out DD with one punch so it's not like his power levels were ignored but a good writer can make a character work for his book.

Plus we don't know what his full plans for the character are after this.

[vitruvian]

Of course, if BT ever *does* cross over back to a Spider-Man title, there's a great d'oh moment waiting to happen.

"You mean I forgot about *another* guy who could have healed Aunt May in a minute or two?"

I mean, Spidey really should remember the guy; it's not as easy to dismiss as Beast and Wolverine forgetting to mention that Elixir of the New X-Men could take care of things, or possibly Angel with his healing blood...

[jackolover]

That's not as easily accomplished with Black Tarantula. Even ignoring his family past (and make no mistake, Brubaker did exactly that), he's simply too powerful to hang out in DD's world for too long. So as a result, the elements that made him stand out and note worthy as a villain get played down and we're functionally left with a different character.

Black Tarantula doesn't work when dragged into DD's street realism because he was never intended to function there, unlike Kingpin who was based (operationally) on real mobsters but given some supervillain tactics.

I don't know if Brubaker spoke to Black Tarantula's creator, Tom Defalco, but if he did, then I see Bru making BT appear as a reformed crim, but all the time, running manipulation in the background. BT is too powerful a character to just demote and carry a neat black suit.



"You mean I forgot about *another* guy who could have healed Aunt May in a minute or two?"

I mean, Spidey really should remember the guy; it's not as easy to dismiss as Beast and Wolverine forgetting to mention that Elixir of the New X-Men could take care of things, or possibly Angel with his healing blood...

Makes you think, that Peter is such a one-dimensional character, who has no contacts he can call upon, when he wants some healing done. He panics, and all reason goes out the window.

[Nefarius]

The moment i saw BT in DD arc"Devil in the cell block D",i said "what the heck".It was very different from Defalco's version.I believe that Bru use him as a character to represent the hispanic speaking inmates of Ryker island(like Morgan being the leader of black inmates and Owl and Hammerhead represent all the others)and really gives the reader the feeling of a prison situation.While Bru's BT is very different from the Defalco's BT,he works perfectly inside the story Bru wants to tell.I don't have a problem with the revamp of this character because Bru made him interesting and it's better to rewrite a character rather that throw him to limbo.Then again,i want to see BT in a Spidey story.I mean,we never learn what kind of relationship had Robbie Robertson and BT.

[Sean Whitmore]

Okay, I kind of agree and disagree with everyone here.

On the one hand, you cannot reconcile Black Tarantula's current personality with the one from his old Spider-Man appearances. A foreign, aristocratic master-planner who rules an army of assassins doesn't just become an Americanized brawler who rules a street gang. You can not care about the discrepancy (I sure don't), but to deny one exists is just silly.

On the other hand...so what. Black Tarantula hadn't appeared for close to a decade in the regular books, and if Brubaker hadn't decided to use him, he likely wouldn't have appeared ever again. Fans of his original incarnation need look no further than Spider-Girl, where he's a semi-regular.

Bru's Tarantula, while nothing at all like what he was, is interesting in his own right. That's enough for me.


SEAN

[Ed Brubaker]

Complaints about BT having at some point been a ganglord or "kingpin" type of crime lord to Hispanic gangbangers before his time in Rykers, while nit-picky, are at least valid. Yeah, we added that into his history for this story. But I feel it fits okay with the idea that he came from South America to build an empire in the US, so I'm fine with it, personally.

Complaints about his lack of powers in DD or the way he talks have already been addressed and explained, in detail, and to me, are not really valid complaints.

Complaints that his family history was ignored, though, is the kind of fanboy stuff that can be really tiring. Just because a part of a character's history isn't mentioned doesn't mean it's being ignored. This story wasn't about Carlos family, it was about him seeing the world in a different light after years in prison, without the use of his special powers.

Maybe in future stories, his history will be more relevant, but that's not what this one was about.

Glad some enjoyed it, and I agree, sometimes it can be better to have a character back, even slightly altered, than to just have them sit in limbo.

[PunisherFan]

i dont know why every1 is complaining about BT's backstory so much. He was never a really good character to begin with or very popular with the fans. I saw no one complainign to Marvel to use him more. Who cares if his backstory was changed, he's minor and hasnt appeared in a loing time. It's not like Venom's backstory or The Owl's or someone popular was changed. Fans of BT should be happy he was put in a book again and stop complaining. The stories were good and he was written well, first time i actually gave a crap about him. I mean I am still waiting for Scream to appear again, lol so consider yourselves lucky he even appeared again

[Sean Whitmore]

I mean I am still waiting for Scream to appear again, lol so consider yourselves lucky he even appeared again

I can beat that. I'm still kinda hoping to see Razorback and the Big Pig again someday.


SEAN

[Rahul]

Didnt Razor back show in the second She-Hulk volume of Dan Slott's?


Anyway, on rereading the annual. I changed my mind. Its good. I guess reading Daredevil patiently is how you enjoy it sometimes....

[disco stu]

Complaints about BT having at some point been a ganglord or "kingpin" type of crime lord to Hispanic gangbangers before his time in Rykers, while nit-picky, are at least valid. Yeah, we added that into his history for this story. But I feel it fits okay with the idea that he came from South America to build an empire in the US, so I'm fine with it, personally.

Complaints about his lack of powers in DD or the way he talks have already been addressed and explained, in detail, and to me, are not really valid complaints.

Complaints that his family history was ignored, though, is the kind of fanboy stuff that can be really tiring. Just because a part of a character's history isn't mentioned doesn't mean it's being ignored. This story wasn't about Carlos family, it was about him seeing the world in a different light after years in prison, without the use of his special powers.

Maybe in future stories, his history will be more relevant, but that's not what this one was about.

Glad some enjoyed it, and I agree, sometimes it can be better to have a character back, even slightly altered, than to just have them sit in limbo.


Havent read any of the BT stuff that you havent written so unbiastly enjoying it, will we be seeing anymore of BT in DD?

[drwho]

Havent read any of the BT stuff that you havent written so unbiastly enjoying it, will we be seeing anymore of BT in DD?

To be honest I never want to see BT in a Daredevil comic again. The character just says forget me. Maybe all the Daredevil wannabe rejects White Tiger, Black Tarantula, and Echo should star in their own comic titled "The New League of Losers". :p

[Toboe]

To be honest I never want to see BT in a Daredevil comic again. The character just says forget me. Maybe all the Daredevil wannabe rejects White Tiger, Black Tarantula, and Echo should star in their own comic titled "The New League of Losers". :p

It's sad that Bendis said that he's using Echo on the New Avengers, where it's never felt right for her to be, beacuse she was a great new character that nobody cared to use. Yet, she was introduced on Daredevil and the guy wrote the books for quite a while and never cared to do anything with her then, even though it was the books she kind of belonged to. Aw, well...

I've never read anything with the Black Tarantula before Brubaker's take, but I'm really enjoying his character. I hope we're seeing more of him in the future, after getting to see how prison has changed him.

Any plans for the White Tiger, Bru?

[Post-It]

To be honest I never want to see BT in a Daredevil comic again. The character just says forget me. Maybe all the Daredevil wannabe rejects White Tiger, Black Tarantula, and Echo should star in their own comic titled "The New League of Losers". :p

While I agree that WT and Echo are DD wannabes, BT has always been my favorite latin character, come on people he is the dread pirate roberts (Princess Bride for those who dont know :-). BT had amazing potential. He was a genius, a powerfull figure, trained martial artist, enhanced everything, w/ optic blast, and the ability to heal himself and others. Furthermore he was the only Latin who was straight up badass. Marvel has always given their Latinos weak/defensive powers or no will to fight or use their powers fully. They even made a latina the weakest half-god I have ever come across in literature (Silverclaw).

BT had it all. Hell, I even started a thread nearly two years ago where I said he would be the only Latino who could probably lead a hypothetical latin squad since he is the only one Marvel, as far as I can think of, has ever had in a leadership capacity.

That being said. Maybe Bru will develop this story to show how one who was once so powerful and educated could find himself were he currently is. Because if not then I have to disagree completely with Bru, just because he hasn't been used in awhile doesn't mean completely changing him is fine.

[Fatguy]

I have to admit, I dont know much about Black tarantula. But I loved this issue, I found him to be very interesting. I hope there are more future plans for him.

Man, between this and DD #101 (which I missed last week and just read this week), I havent been this excited about Daredevil since the early Bendis issues when it was my favorite comic out there.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I've said my piece, but one think I gotta disagree on is the attitude that BT in Daredevil is the best his fans can hope for.

Black Tarantula is/was a super powerful crime figure. And following registration, the vast majority of Marvel books are defacto law enforcement books. BT could have appeared The Initiative, Ms. Marvel, Iron Man, The Order. Heck, he could have easily worked in the current Iron Fist story arc, as a mystic champion of a city.

Brubaker may be the best writer for Black Tarantula, we'll see, but he's by no means the only option.

[Siythe]

Complaints about BT having at some point been a ganglord or "kingpin" type of crime lord to Hispanic gangbangers before his time in Rykers, while nit-picky, are at least valid. Yeah, we added that into his history for this story. But I feel it fits okay with the idea that he came from South America to build an empire in the US, so I'm fine with it, personally.

Complaints about his lack of powers in DD or the way he talks have already been addressed and explained, in detail, and to me, are not really valid complaints.

Complaints that his family history was ignored, though, is the kind of fanboy stuff that can be really tiring. Just because a part of a character's history isn't mentioned doesn't mean it's being ignored. This story wasn't about Carlos family, it was about him seeing the world in a different light after years in prison, without the use of his special powers.

Maybe in future stories, his history will be more relevant, but that's not what this one was about.

Glad some enjoyed it, and I agree, sometimes it can be better to have a character back, even slightly altered, than to just have them sit in limbo.

Couple of things I'd take issue with here, and apologies if others have covered this already. Also if this makes me a Spiderman fanboy then so be it.

First off saying that people taking issue with him suddenly being a NY gang banger aren’t "nit-picky" and you didn’t "add to his history" you completely rewrote it. You took a character with a back story of controlling a ton of crime in south America, who had a load of willing minions (some of who had superpowers of their own) and who was looking to expand his empire into America while competing with other crime lord types and transformed him into a minor thug. Trying to pass off your gang leader version of the character as a small modification seems more than a little disingenuous.

Second saying that "complaints that his family history has been ignored is fanboy stuff" also comes off as a bad excuse. In the prison arc I just thought you were in a hurry and missed a few details about the character, annoying but no big deal. However this statement means you know about the characters history and retconed it to hell and back anyway. Presumably because there just weren’t any another Latino villains around and creating a new one was to much bother.

Hudlin would pull this kind of thing and I'd believe he just didn’t know any better, Bendis would do it and I'd know he just didn’t care about other people characters. However when I writer that I normally really enjoy reading and who usually shows a lot of respect to the characters he writes suddenly pulls something like this it grates much more than it would from someone with less talent.

Your Daredevil stories have really got me interested in the character, something even Miller and Bendis' runs never managed to do. But the sloppiness of the alterations to Black Tarantula have struck a sour note through the whole thing. Yes he's out of limbo but switching him from major international player to yet another NY antihero really doesn’t seem like anything but a waste.

[PunisherFan]

im still shocked that people care about BT and are crying about his backstory. My life wouldn't have changed a bit if he never appeared again... or appeared and was decimated in 2 panels

[The Cool Thatguy]

im still shocked that people care about BT and are crying about his backstory. My life wouldn't have changed a bit if he never appeared again... or appeared and was decimated in 2 panels

I don't recall anything stating their quality of life suffered because of what we see as Black Tarantula's poor treatment. We're simply stating why we disagree with Brubaker's take, while others are stating their support.

If anything, you seem to be engaging fanboy whining about non existant fanboy whining. Or perhaps everyone must have the same opinion, that we all must be a group mind. Is that your stance?

[Gloria]

(Brubaker's) Daredevil stories have really got me interested in the character, something even Miller and Bendis' runs never managed to do. But the sloppiness of the alterations to Black Tarantula have struck a sour note through the whole thing. Yes he's out of limbo but switching him from major international player to yet another NY antihero really doesn’t seem like anything but a waste.
One thing I can tell you: this annual has got me interested in the BT character, which I wasn't very aware of, since I almost gave up reading Spidey in the clones pandemonium era, and have only read it sporadically ever since. I see in this thread, and quite a number nof online comments elsewhere, that I am not alone in liking/being interested in the BT as he appears in the Annual, and willing to see more of him.

I personally think that it is better than limbo. Much better.

Also, as a DD longtime fan, I could say that I wasn't precisely pleased with the way DD-related characters appear in "Spidergirl" (one word: clones.... AAARGH! AaAaaAArgh!!-foam in my mouth-)... So if fans of the old-style Black Tarantula are likewise not enthusiastic about the Carlos appearing in DD's Annual, well, I can say we're even now ;)

And Carlos now likes to eat churros. I can't resist churros myself, so, yes, I dig the new BT

[Siythe]

One thing I can tell you: this annual has got me interested in the BT character, which I wasn't very aware of, since I almost gave up reading Spidey in the clones pandemonium era, and have only read it sporadically ever since. I see in this thread, and quite a number nof online comments elsewhere, that I am not alone in liking/being interested in the BT as he appears in the Annual, and willing to see more of him.

I personally think that it is better than limbo. Much better.

Also, as a DD longtime fan, I could say that I wasn't precisely pleased with the way DD-related characters appear in "Spidergirl" (one word: clones.... AAARGH! AaAaaAArgh!!-foam in my mouth-)... So if fans of the old-style Black Tarantula are likewise not enthusiastic about the Carlos appearing in DD's Annual, well, I can say we're even now ;)

And Carlos now likes to eat churros. I can't resist churros myself, so, yes, I dig the new BT

My heart is warmed by the idea that Defalco got some retribution for this in early over in Spidergirl.

And hey I'm glad other people enjoyed the issue. But I cant see how this version of the character is an improvment on limbo. Powers and costume aside they arent close to being the same guy. So really what was the point of using BT rather than just creating a new character that fit the bill?

[Post-It]

My heart is warmed by the idea that Defalco got some retribution for this in early over in Spidergirl.

And hey I'm glad other people enjoyed the issue. But I cant see how this version of the character is an improvment on limbo. Powers and costume aside they arent close to being the same guy. So really what was the point of using BT rather than just creating a new character that fit the bill?


Hopefully there is an amnesia explanation for the character's change. Maybe one punch to the head will bring back the old BT. As for ppl complaining that he is also in Spider Girl, its not him. I believe that is his son. The BT has been around for 700 years b/c the title is pasted down like the Phantom or Dread Pirate Roberts.

[Siythe]

Hopefully there is an amnesia explanation for the character's change. Maybe one punch to the head will bring back the old BT.

When in doubt blame Scarlet Witch.

[PunisherFan]

I don't recall anything stating their quality of life suffered because of what we see as Black Tarantula's poor treatment. We're simply stating why we disagree with Brubaker's take, while others are stating their support.

If anything, you seem to be engaging fanboy whining about non existant fanboy whining. Or perhaps everyone must have the same opinion, that we all must be a group mind. Is that your stance?

my stance is who cares. He was an okay character when he first debuted and then disappeared. Now someone finally brings him back and everyone complains b/c he's different. just be happy he appeared again

[The Cool Thatguy]

my stance is who cares. He was an okay character when he first debuted and then disappeared. Now someone finally brings him back and everyone complains b/c he's different. just be happy he appeared again

That's your stance, and you're entitled to it. Just as we're entitled to our stance that, judging from the appearances under Brubaker up until now, it appears as if a character we like has been lessened. If you like the take, good for you. Money well spent.

And with due respect, 'be thankful that he's being used' is really hog wash. We see an incarnation of him in Spider-Girl and there's no indication that Brubaker had to break down some great wall to be allowed to use him. Given the increasing hispanic community in the United States, and the fact so every book that's not dedicated to fighting registration is a defacto law enforcement book, I don't think Brubaker would have been the only person in comics to think to use Tarantula.

It's not enough to see a favorite character for me. I want to see that character done right. I really don't see why you're implying that that's so much to ask of comics today.

[Will.S]

And hey I'm glad other people enjoyed the issue. But I cant see how this version of the character is an improvment on limbo. Powers and costume aside they arent close to being the same guy. So really what was the point of using BT rather than just creating a new character that fit the bill?
To dash running around in circles again, Ed explained that already as have I for those wanting to know why.

[The Cool Thatguy]

To dash running around in circles again, Ed explained that already as have I for those wanting to know why.

The problem is, that with due respect to Ed, those explanations really don't pass muster.

*important sections in bold*

Okay, I kind of agree and disagree with everyone here.

On the one hand, you cannot reconcile Black Tarantula's current personality with the one from his old Spider-Man appearances. A foreign, aristocratic master-planner who rules an army of assassins doesn't just become an Americanized brawler who rules a street gang. You can not care about the discrepancy (I sure don't), but to deny one exists is just silly.

On the other hand...so what. Black Tarantula hadn't appeared for close to a decade in the regular books, and if Brubaker hadn't decided to use him, he likely wouldn't have appeared ever again. Fans of his original incarnation need look no further than Spider-Girl, where he's a semi-regular.

Bru's Tarantula, while nothing at all like what he was, is interesting in his own right. That's enough for me.


SEAN

[Will.S]

The problem is, that with due respect to Ed, those explanations really don't pass muster.

*important sections in bold*
*shrugs*

I don't know what else to tell you. If people don't like Ed's answer that's where it'll have to stand unless he wants to further go into it. Some people like yourself and Siythe don't like it, others who didn't have exposure to him previously like the way he was written by Ed.

[Gloria]

When in doubt blame Scarlet Witch.
:D
That was brilliant! ;)

[Pixie_Solanas]

That is not the Black Tarantula that apeared in Amazing Spider-Man #419 to #436.

That Black Tarantula was an aristicratic and reserved mastermind that always spoke in an extreamly polite maner even during combat. Like ridiculously polite.
For example upon smashing a reining New York Crime Lords wall and stepping casually through he said.
"Please forgive this intrusion Don Fortunato,I have learned through means
innapropriate to divulge,that I was to be the topic of today's conversation.

I prefer to present my case in person. I am the Black Tarantula and I respectfully request your blessing to expand my interests into the the New York area."

He would never spout street slang.

The real Black Tarantula came from a criminal legacy that suposedly dates back to Marco Polo's first trips and has strong ties to an offshoot of the Hand
called the True Believers.

He was often depicted loungeing in lavish lairs or studies drinking wine and doleling out orders to various minions around the world.

Street thuggery is beneth him and always has been.


So who apeared in this comic claiming to be him?

My three guesses?

A Skrull.

An Alpha.(See She Hulk #21)

El Uno. One of the real Black Tarantula's Henchmen. He has impersonated his master before.


That dude sounded like a complete panty-waist. Thank funk Bru cleaned up that mess of a character and gave him some real pathos.

[The Cool Thatguy]

That dude sounded like a complete panty-waist. Thank funk Bru cleaned up that mess of a character and gave him some real pathos.

'Cause yeah, a low level thug making an attempt at reform is something we've never seen before :rolleyes:

[Pixie_Solanas]

'Cause yeah, a low level thug making an attempt at reform is something we've never seen before :rolleyes:

It's like Edward James Olmos in "Stand and Deliver", except he wasn't a thug and he wasn't Brasilian, but damn it, you just want to root for the guy.

Besides, classic villains hellbent on world domination is sooo Lee/Kirby, a byproduct of the outdated swingin' sixties.

[The Cool Thatguy]

It's like Edward James Olmos in "Stand and Deliver", except he wasn't a thug and he wasn't Brasilian, but damn it, you just want to root for the guy.

Besides, classic villains hellbent on world domination is sooo Lee/Kirby, a byproduct of the swingin' sixties.

The problem is that Black Tarantula was so radically different from his first incarnation he might as well be a completely new character. I don't understand why people are so shocked that fans of the old incarnation don't like this new one.

And really, what's the point of serial fiction if characterization and such of an existing character are changed on a whim?

[Siythe]

To dash running around in circles again, Ed explained that already as have I for those wanting to know why.

Much as I appreciate Ed being a stand up enough guy to bother to try and explain his thinking to disgruntled fanboys, something a lot of writers wouldn’t bother to, he didn’t really explain what I really don’t understand about this whole thing.

If you've read the old Spidey stories and thought BT was a good enough character to warrant reusing, why would you do so in a way that makes him completely different from the way he used to be?

Motivations, methods and back story are all changed here, even the powers have a new twist on them. Seeing as he is essentially a new character why wasn’t a new one just created rather than a old one pointlessly retconed?

That dude sounded like a complete panty-waist. Thank funk Bru cleaned up that mess of a character and gave him some real pathos.

You could call him a lot of things but pantywaist wouldnt really be one of them. This was a guy who went around using peoples heads to carve his logo in a wall, snaping their necks and then healing them just so they'd know how easily he could kill them anytime he wanted.

He was a truly formidable villain with a strong sense of honnor and a good back story. Now he's generic marvel antihero mk #23 who used to be generic marvel gangleader mk #89. And for some reason I'm supposed to like him better? Pass.

[Post-It]

Much as I appreciate Ed being a stand up enough guy to bother to try and explain his thinking to disgruntled fanboys, something a lot of writers wouldn’t bother to, he didn’t really explain what I really don’t understand about this whole thing.

If you've read the old Spidey stories and thought BT was a good enough character to warrant reusing, why would you do so in a way that makes him completely different from the way he used to be?

Motivations, methods and back story are all changed here, even the powers have a new twist on them. Seeing as he is essentially a new character why wasn’t a new one just created rather than a old one pointlessly retconed?



You could call him a lot of things but pantywaist wouldnt really be one of them. This was a guy who went around using peoples heads to carve his logo in a wall, snaping their necks and then healing them just so they'd know how easily he could kill them anytime he wanted.

He was a truly formidable villain with a strong sense of honnor and a good back story. Now he's generic marvel antihero mk #23 who used to be generic marvel gangleader mk #89. And for some reason I'm supposed to like him better? Pass.


Exactly! I agree completely.

[Will.S]

Much as I appreciate Ed being a stand up enough guy to bother to try and explain his thinking to disgruntled fanboys, something a lot of writers wouldn’t bother to, he didn’t really explain what I really don’t understand about this whole thing.

If you've read the old Spidey stories and thought BT was a good enough character to warrant reusing, why would you do so in a way that makes him completely different from the way he used to be?

Motivations, methods and back story are all changed here, even the powers have a new twist on them. Seeing as he is essentially a new character why wasn’t a new one just created rather than a old one pointlessly retconed?
I'm going to be brutally honest with you.

Yourself and The Cool Thatguy are probably about the only few people who care that much about it around here. Other people like Sean Whitmore who knows about his past history as well as well as acknowledging that Ed facilitated some changes with the character still enjoyed it. New readers get a chance to be introduced to the character in Ed's story and if they want they could Wiki him up or whatever but Black Tarantula it's really not that big of a deal enough to make someone want to kill themselves or something.

In fact I think that's the last thing I'll say on the subject as I'm very tired of talking about the whole thing and I would rather move on to other things/subjects either regarding Ed's run or the future of the character.

[Siythe]

Heh, fair enough really.

[littleredhat]

I think this may be a Doctor Light situation. No not in a rape way but in a mind wipeing a super criminal to make him less dangerous.

And they could do it because though he was a big shot in South America he never really gained a foothold in the U.S.

I bet his wife and son were involved because they are really the only things he cares about in New York.

[littleredhat]

It's like Edward James Olmos in "Stand and Deliver", except he wasn't a thug and he wasn't Brasilian, but damn it, you just want to root for the guy.

Besides, classic villains hellbent on world domination is sooo Lee/Kirby, a byproduct of the outdated swingin' sixties.

Um....no.

The orginal Black Tarantula didn't want to take over the world. His main motivation was to gain a foothold in the New York underground so that he could find his ex-wife and thier young son.

http://www.answers.com/topic/black-tarantula?cat=biz-fin

Read and learn fellow.

[jackolover]

If you've read the old Spidey stories and thought BT was a good enough character to warrant reusing, why would you do so in a way that makes him completely different from the way he used to be?

They did the same to Machine Man in Ms Marvel recently, and nobody complained. It looks like Marvel are taking characters who have had low appearances and revamping them, for use by whoever wants them. I can't wait for when Kaine gets back into the MU.

[Pixie_Solanas]

Um....no.

The orginal Black Tarantula didn't want to take over the world. His main motivation was to gain a foothold in the New York underground so that he could find his ex-wife and thier young son.

http://www.answers.com/topic/black-tarantula?cat=biz-fin

Read and learn fellow.


Sorry, Bru's ex con persona sounds a helluva lot more interesting, frankly.

Yeah, gaining the foothold in the NYC underworld always helps in bringin' back your missing wife and spawn.

[areacode212]

I had never heard of the Black Tarantula before I read the Annual, which I enjoyed quite a bit. That said, I can totally see why fans would be so annoyed, especially after I read this post (http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/4348589.html#cutid1). If there's some character that, for some reason, really appealed to you, and you've been waiting years for a creator to bring them back, it's pretty disappointing when they DO come back and everything that you found unique or cool about them is gone or completely different. It's especially bad when said character is some obscure D-lister, because you know that you're one of the ten people on the planet that actually cares about this.

Personally, I like Brubaker's version, but if this involved one of my "pet characters", I could see myself gnashing my teeth over this too.

[Gloria]

Personally, I like Brubaker's version, but if this involved one of my "pet characters", I could see myself gnashing my teeth over this too.
I, too, have enjoyed the annual. and find the Carlos LaMuerto that appears there an extremely interesting -and promising- character. Re his past, only his mentoring of a young boy is mentioned, which doesn't necessarily mean that the previous BT backstory has ceased to exist: it's only not mentioned... The story deals mostly wuth LaMuerto being at acrossroads in his life, so mostly set in tyhe present and projecting himself towards the future.

As you say, yes, I'd dislike a favourite character being out-of-character: in fact, as I have already mentioned, I get that uneasy feeling about the treatment the DD universe characters get in the MC2 continuity :( (where BT, seemingly, is faithfully portrayed, or so I've read)

[Post-It]

I have a thought. What if the trauma inflicted to his head by Bullseye affected him in the same manner in which Sabertooth was affected by Wolverine injuring his brain. On one hand his healing factors healed the wound but perphaps this is just his new persona induced by the trauma in the same way Creed reverted to an almost child like state. Just a thought.

[Gloria]

That's a interesting idea. In prison he was de powered, so being badly wounded by Bullseye and not being able to recover as he would (if he had his powers OK) must have been a new experience.

And I still think that the events in the annual don't necessarily mean that past charactherizations are forgotten: we only get a few glimpses of BT's past, not a full briefing

[Crimson]

Um....no.

The orginal Black Tarantula didn't want to take over the world. His main motivation was to gain a foothold in the New York underground so that he could find his ex-wife and thier young son.

http://www.answers.com/topic/black-tarantula?cat=biz-fin

Read and learn fellow.

To be honest... Bru could of reformed him in pretty much the same way with the old backstory.

I mean you have BT coming out and taking a look at the underworld he helped make worse. So he wants to try and make it a better world for his son to grow up in without fear.

[Renzo]

I was going to re-read this tonight but the first time I went through the annual I enjoyed it. Of course, I really don't know a lot about BT or his past but I can see both sides of the issue. If I had an intimate interest in BT or his past, then it would bother me if it was just changed to be out-of-character. On the other side, it is just a comic book character.