Annihilation Conquest: Quasar #4 *Spoilers* [Archive]

drwho

10-31-2007, 12:23 PM

Okay after reading this as a whole I find this mini pretty entertaining and it did have some type of end to it. I also think the reveal that Supremor was in fact the voice calling her which was also shown in Wraith was handled much better here. The art is top notch as always. Phyla kicks Adaptoid butt and absorbs some of the quantum energy back into the bands. Warlock is revealed to be in the cocoon. I really hope he is his normal self and they dont make him act mentally retarded due to getting out of the cocoon early. Quasar shows up in the energy band fighting the evil corruption in the bands. I really didn't like this scene because it goes back to the whole we have to show the readers that the other Quasar gives her his best so readers will accept her. NO thanks. It will be interesting to see what happens next. I don't hate Phyla, but she is no Quasar. Give her another name, or something.

aniscape

10-31-2007, 12:50 PM

drwho

10-31-2007, 01:01 PM

I've been thinking of names for Phyla

Astro Maiden
Phyla Space Knight
Astara
White Star
binary :D

Enigmanaut

10-31-2007, 01:03 PM

Honestly, I'm cautiously hopeful by Wendell's appearance in this issue. His consciousness was knocked for a loop by his "death", but he pulled himself back together again at last, what with being so experienced with dying. It certainly seems that Wendell now at least can come back, seeing as how he survived in some form.

His invitation to Phyla to ask him her questions if they meet again seems to me a tacit acknowledgment that Wendell doesn't consider his story over.

Who knows, Annihilus' consciousness may be forced back into Annihilus Jr, and Wendell may find himself back in the real world, rebuilt again by the residual Star Brand energy he had, or even reconstructed from Quantum energy.

The door isn't just open, we kinda saw Wendell go through it. Now, I really think he'll be back.

Deus ex Chris

10-31-2007, 01:03 PM

I've been thinking of names for Phyla

Astro Maiden
Phyla Space Knight
Astara
White Star
binary :D
She has one: Quasar.

NMoline

10-31-2007, 01:10 PM

It is good to know that way back in June I knew that this would end with Warlock being the savior as evident by my post saying:

"Him is Adam Warlock. Warlock was originally called him in the Fantastic Four series #66; therefore I am positive it is referring to Warlock."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by NMoline : 06-21-2007 at 09:45 AM.
-http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=194734&highlight=Quasar

Now having said that it did ruin the surprise a little for me because none of the other issues ever made me suspect that it could be anyone different; and why should it be?

Two huge Space Epics and no mention of Adam Warlock would be heresy!

EnDwiGast

10-31-2007, 01:22 PM

Christos Gage, I appreciate your work as a writer. This is the first time I have found myself unable to support one of your projects.

However, as a Wendell fan I appreciate what I see as an attempt by you to leave the door open.

If anyone at Marvel is working under the belief that a passing of the torch appearance would be cheered by fans of the replaced character - and that it would open the door for transferring enthusiasm from one character to another, I do not believe it will. Fans of the replacement character will be happy, and I can honestly be happy for them. Fans of the replaced character will not be -and I find this persistent position that supporting a replacement character's appearances will increase the odds of a permanent return by the previous character to be disingenuous.

Until an actual return happens, or an official statement that Marvel intends to bring Wendell back at some specific point - I will have to continue to express my dissatisfaction with the current state of things through sales. Otherwise, each time I buy an issue I will be validating the decision Marvel made. And unless i vocalize that fromtime to time, Marvel seemingly will translate that as apathy.

That, for me, now means I can't find it in myself to enthusiastically support the Annihilation:Conquest event. I will rely upon online fans to give me a heads up when the winds begin to shift back in a direction i can support.

Nova is too good of a book for me to stop following. I will continue to promote a character, Wendell Vaughn/Quasar that I will read when Marvel gets around to publishing his adventures again.

I don't feel the ultimate decision to keep Wendell dead for now was yours. Thank you for the hope and re-assurance that fans of Wendell Vaughn/Quasar will one day be rewarded.

I'm looking forward to your Thunderbolts one-shot,your mini series dealing with the Avengers in the world of House of M and other future projects.

Christopher Cross Is God

10-31-2007, 02:27 PM

Didn't like this issue much, but Quasar #4 was better than Wraith #4.

I've only read a few of his books, but I've yet to read a Christos Gage comic I like.

I still have hopes for the main Annihilation Conquest series, as it's not written by the people who did these lead-ups, but by the Nova team.

The Deadpool

10-31-2007, 03:44 PM

Y'know, you may dislike the "pass the torch" moment but.. It's WENDELL. Nicest guy in comics. OF COURSE he's gonna give the new girl a 'pass the torch' moment. I'd be disappointed if he didn't...

Samuraixsithlord

10-31-2007, 04:09 PM

so is the saviour Adam Warlock or Wendell?

DaeJi

10-31-2007, 04:15 PM

I'm not getting it until this weekend :( (and I still don't know who the savior is!). Family crisis. Anyway, I can't wait, and when I do finally get it I'll be sure to pop up and rant about how great it is and how much better she is than Wendell and such. Good times.

drwho

10-31-2007, 04:21 PM

Adam Warlock is the supposed savior but it was inferred that he has been traumatized. So it is possible someone else may take the savior role.

FoolishScribe

10-31-2007, 04:50 PM

I enjoyed this mini series and wouldn't mind seeing Phyla in her own title with Moondragon. I am okay with her being called Quasar if they are truly keeping Wendell down.

Chiasm

10-31-2007, 04:58 PM

The savior was predictable since there is no way Adam Warlock wasn't going to appear in two straight mega cosmic events.

Overall I liked the series. The dialogue at times was poor but the story was good and the art was excellent.

I like Phylla as Quasar but I've got no problem with Wendell or his possibly coming back. In fact the only thing I don't like about Wendell is his rabid fanbase.

XPac

10-31-2007, 05:37 PM

freddy1428

10-31-2007, 05:46 PM

I love the mini of Quasar, I think phyla is one of the best character of the marvel universe, Christos Gage and Mike Lilly works is simply amazing, for me the best mini of conquest, thanks for marvel to give a second chance for the characters of Peter David (I'm a big fan of Captain Marvel). For the Wendells fan, I think it's logical that if you like Wendell, you like the marvel cosmic style, I don't think you just like Wendell and dislike all the others characters of annihilation, Genis-vell and Thanos are my favourite characters, it's not for that I want to boycott Marvel for kill him, I really enjoy annihilation despite that, because before to be fan of characters, I'm fan of the cosmic stories of marvel, and I think the best way for a return of Wendell is to show that you love cosmic story, because I have a big doubt that Wendell will come back in spider-man or an x-men comics.
Thanks again for Christos Gage for this incredible mini (awesome the sci-fi fantasy style), his amazing works for to keep Quasar in the spotlight of the marvel universe (sorry everybody for my bad english).:)

christosgage

10-31-2007, 06:03 PM

Y'know, you may dislike the "pass the torch" moment but.. It's WENDELL. Nicest guy in comics. OF COURSE he's gonna give the new girl a 'pass the torch' moment. I'd be disappointed if he didn't...

This is exactly right. That wasn't me talking, or Bill, or anyone else...it was Wendell. Or at the very least it's what I thought he'd say. He IS the nicest guy in the world. If he'd said, "By the way, bitch, you ain't no Quasar," or "Keep my bands warm for me, I'll be back for 'em," would that really sound like Wendell? Not to me.

But I understand where you're coming from if you can't accept anyone else as Quasar. I'm still waiting for Barry Allen to come back.

Best,

CNG

Sheldon

10-31-2007, 06:13 PM

The horrible and sloppy art really ruined this mini for me. It was too distracting and I couldn't get into it.

Somebody

10-31-2007, 06:28 PM

Adam Warlock? Eugh.

Knew to within a few decimal points it was going to be him, but doesn't mean I have to like it.

But I understand where you're coming from if you can't accept anyone else as Quasar. I'm still waiting for Barry Allen to come back.
This is where someone posts the Quasar #17 & #58 covers, right?

Cthulhudrew

10-31-2007, 06:54 PM

But I understand where you're coming from if you can't accept anyone else as Quasar. I'm still waiting for Barry Allen to come back.

Are you reading Booster Gold? You should be. ;)

Mysterio's Helmet

10-31-2007, 07:12 PM

From another thread:

Christos,

Thanks for doing that. I appreciate the appearance but I'm done, man. No way in heck can I support the title's furtherance. Hope you appreciate the candor.

And tell Marvel to keep your big secret storyline under wraps until the week of. That was weak sauce.

I have just read said issue. It was the best issue of the series. I knew the reveals already but it was a strong end to it. Still weak sauce from Marvel for shipping the preview copies early and spoiling anything before takes a lot of the thunder out of any storyline.

At any rate, I bought and read this for myself. Wendell's appearance to me was not exactly portrayed correctly from the first reports. It was well done and as mentioned before it pretty much is exactly what Wendell would say to her.

I'll get back to Vaughn in a sec. All the key points were revealed and I thought the dialogue was the best of the series. However, I thought it was interesting the way Christos told this.....I thought the reveal would come in the like the beginning of the last 1/3 of the story, not at the end. I thought the "unpoisioning" of the Bands would've been last. And Adam Warlock....still meh on him but he works for a lot of other readers. That last page he looked manga though. But that's an art thing.....

It's probably just me........;)

Anyway, a good conclusion to the mini although HD Steckley is still a dragon. Wonder if DnA will run with the ball on that???

And back to Wendell, that whole dialogue and his appearance (in his current duds) brings a lot back to the table for us Wendell fans. His foot is in the door and the next writer has the opportunity now to take it another step further. Thanks to Christos and editorial for getting that in. Thanks guys!

So first and foremost, sorry, man. I don't know how you can read these things and not feel a twinge in either direction.

A job well done! Congrats.

FoolishScribe

10-31-2007, 07:20 PM

very well put Mysterio's Helmet.

drwho

10-31-2007, 07:27 PM

I just think the Wendell scene did more bad than good. I mean I would have preferred him to not even appear in the mini. Plus his appearance kind of ruins one of the more interesting plots in the mini where both Phyla and Moon Dragon were forced to show support for each other in order to control each others darkside. This whole Wendell swoops in and imprisons the band corruption was bologna in my opinion. A bad way to kill one of the more interesting plots of the characters.

Omega the Unknown

10-31-2007, 07:55 PM

well,
the whole phyla-vell and moondragon (while actual dragon) is icky, and
the "passing of the torch" was a bit forced, IMHO.

not a big fan of "hey, lets kill off so and so (the question, quasar) and replace them with a girl! and make her a lesbian!
cause, you know, that makes them even more interesting, rather than good stories making the guys they replaced interesting.

but hey, still 10 times better than wraith :)

now, the last part, where supremor says the savior has not been fortunate enough to have won battle with his inner demons...curious.

adams inner demon is the magus.

was wrestling with the magus part of himself why he was in the cocoon?
by releasing him early, what have they done?

okay, I'm ready for annihilation:conquest!

more rocket racoon, less wraith!

Deus ex Chris

10-31-2007, 08:02 PM

not a big fan of "hey, lets kill off so and so (the question, quasar) and replace them with a girl! and make her a lesbian!
She was already a lesbian. They both were.

Kyle R

10-31-2007, 08:34 PM

She was already a lesbian. They both were.
Wendell was a lesbian? Huh.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/axemurderersmurf/moreyouknow.jpg

Deus ex Chris

10-31-2007, 08:37 PM

Wendell was a lesbian? Huh.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/axemurderersmurf/moreyouknow.jpg
He wasn't referring to Wendell and neither was I--but nice try.

slapstickinitiative

10-31-2007, 08:44 PM

Christos...is bringing back adam warlock your idea or anyone elses?

drwho

10-31-2007, 08:50 PM

I just have a bad feeling Marvel is gonna try to give Adam Warlock a new personality. Even in the art he looks younger. I wouldnt be surprised if we see him acting totally clueless and out of character when the mini rolls around with amnesia, or something. Please let this be our Adam Warlock and not an attempted revamp of Adam in body and soul. Anyone know where i could find a large copy of this picture which would be a good size to use as a desktop wallpaper?

http://marvelite.prohosting.com/surfer/cmarvel/funeral_sm.jpg

Kyle R

10-31-2007, 09:07 PM

He wasn't referring to Wendell and neither was I--but nice try.
He was in the section you quoted. But whatever, I'm not going to argue semantics with you over my lame attempts at humour.

christosgage

10-31-2007, 09:37 PM

Christos...is bringing back adam warlock your idea or anyone elses?

Not mine, it was set before I came on board...not sure whose it was.

stingerman

10-31-2007, 09:42 PM

MIMIC616

10-31-2007, 09:47 PM

I liked the mini-series.

However I though Adam Warlock was a bad choice as the savior.

Better choices:

Warlock from New Mutants.
Warlock (Janie Chin) from Warlock mini-series
The Super Adaptoid - Chooses to be its own destiny and get even.
Marvel Boy - Noh-Varr
Captain Marvel - He's back for some editorial reason.
Captain Marvel 3 - Crazy is good.

I just can't get a positive vibe from Adam Warlock, I read some of his previous cosmic-events and he doesn't work for me.

stingerman

10-31-2007, 09:50 PM

This is where someone posts the Quasar #17 & #58 covers, right?

http://www.quantumzone.org/issues/quasar/thumbnails/quasar17.gif

http://www.quantumzone.org/issues/quasar/thumbnails/quasar58.gif

stingerman

10-31-2007, 10:00 PM

Well, you are not going to make everyone happy and your sure as heck aren't going to make everybody happy with a one page "return."

That being said I will say I am "half" happy. The way I look at it is we are half way there. Wendell's back (in some form or another). Now we just have to get him back as Quasar.

Even though I have been a tad bit critical of this series :D I must say this wasn't a bad issue. I am not really a big fan of the fantasy element and add to it my favorite super hero being replaced by the current unworthy, as evident in her quantum constuct "imagination" battle with the adaptoid, quantum band holder you really can't blame me.

Mr. Gage, I do want to thank you for bringing back Wendell. And for the record I have been enjoying your Wildstorm stuff. One thing I wasn't too clear on in the comic was when the "Wendell Event" took place. Was that in Phyla's head or something? Because it seemed like she was on the ground- then in space? Then back? Or did she fly up and down real quick? Thanks.

ColdFury

11-01-2007, 01:00 AM

I'm rather torn, here.

I have nothing against Phyla. Throwing her into the role of Quasar from only the most tenuous of connections to him (her girlfriend wanted to be his shagmate, he took her father's job) makes it honestly feel a bit 'tacky'.

But none of that percieved tackiness was in the mini. So points to Mr. Gage for that.

The continuity issues were handled rather well, I think. The story was decent, as well. The end felt a bit rushed, but its hard to have a four issue series cover a lot of ground, I think.

But the basic conundrum is that I am a fan of Wendell Vaughn Quasar. I don't want him to become the next Barry Allen (IIRC Barry Allen's popularity was waning until they killed him, and now he is legend much like the cosmic heroes are kind of referring to Q-ball now). I want to read the further adventures of Wendell Vaughn.

Eventually, this might happen. I mean, Luke Cage is popular right now, maybe next decade someone from my generation will make it big and Quasar will be HIS pet character.

But right now it seems that Marvel is sticking to this Phyla Vell thing for whatever reason. Given how long the legacy of Captain Marvel stayed dormant, its amazing that we have had three heirs of his running around and now his time displaced self. But all this seems to mean no Wendell.

So what do I do? Do I continue to support the 'Quasar' name, in the hopes that my complaints don't fall on deaf ears? Or do I shun it, and thus send the message that cosmic doesn't sell any longer?

Which way dooms my favorite character least?

So was the book decent? Yeah, Mr. Gage has yet to disappoint me with anything I've read of his. Except that I wanted to read the adventures of my favorite character, Wendell Vaughn, which wasn't something he was setting out to do here. So I think in this case, I was doomed to disappointment.

Baltho08

11-01-2007, 06:35 AM

Well, I have no opinion on the whole Wendell/Phyla debate, as I don't really care about either, really. My only complaint is that it kind of took too long for anything to happen. I realize that there was a lot of ground that needed to be covered in only four issues, but I wish there had been more to it. That said, this issue was much better than Wraith's final issue, but both pale in comparison to Nova and Star-lord (well, Star-lord so far). I'm not saying Quasar was bad, just that I expected more, considering she's supposed to be the star of this event. Oh well. Decent comic; not spectacular, but I don't want my money back, so, I guess that's a good thing. Now, bring on the main event!
Peace.

christosgage

11-01-2007, 07:16 AM

Mr. Gage, I do want to thank you for bringing back Wendell. And for the record I have been enjoying your Wildstorm stuff. One thing I wasn't too clear on in the comic was when the "Wendell Event" took place. Was that in Phyla's head or something? Because it seemed like she was on the ground- then in space? Then back? Or did she fly up and down real quick? Thanks.

She was inside the bands -- her consciousness, anyway.

Best,

CNG

XPac

11-01-2007, 07:48 AM

So what do I do? Do I continue to support the 'Quasar' name, in the hopes that my complaints don't fall on deaf ears? Or do I shun it, and thus send the message that cosmic doesn't sell any longer?

Which way dooms my favorite character least?

Simple tie-breaker is buy it if you think it's good. Pass on it if there's something you like better of the shelves.

I didn't like Wraith... read it on the shelves but I have no intention of buying it regardless of the fact that it's a cosmic title. Marvel hopefully won't assume that just because I won't buy a single title that I didn't happen to like, I'm shunning all cosmic titles. Rather I'm just passing on the ones I don't particularly like.

Same logic with Quasar (which is all fairness is several notches ahead of Wraith, but a few below Nova and Starlord). So aside from the first issue, I passed on buying it.

As long as you don't make Wendell and Phyla the sole critiera for whether or not you buy a comic, and you factor in the actual quality of the book, you can buy or not buy a comic guilt free. There are other ways you can show support for the cosmic titles if you need to.

KirkWarren

11-01-2007, 08:27 AM

Pretty much everyone guessed Adam Warlock for the saviour, but it was still cool to see. Guess Marvel tried to throw people off and made Giffen or whoever in an interview say Warlock was hands off and not in Conquest.

With Warlock as the saviour, looks like Magus will be the bad guy behind the Conquest. If you're not familiar with him, you can check out my 5 Guesses Conquest Vllain (http://www.weeklycrisis.com/2007/09/5-potential-villains-for-marvels.html), which listed him as #1.

Quasar's Bands

11-01-2007, 08:44 AM

Mr. Gage - You did capture what Wendell would say perfectly. As that was your goal - thank you and good job.

Annihilus IS alive in his reincarnated form, and his essence (with memories) will return to that body. It explains how he has supposedly been killed in the past and returned each time.

Thus, that "thing" in the Bands is not Annihilus - or at least not his soul. It is an echo of him - kind of like those constructs of former Bearers back in the Quasar series - they weren't really the Bearers brought back to life - merely the memory of them. I would argue the same is true of Wendell. The fact that Annihilus' essence was able to nudge Phyla to do things when she was angry, to me means that his memory/essence had yet to "dissolve." Quasar's HAD started to dissolve, but in response to Annihilus's shenanigans, he "returned" to help save the day. Very heroic. Very Wendell. Thus, we had two manifestations of memories/essences fighting it out - and Wendell beat the bug in the end. YAY!

Does anyone remember a Thunderbolts story from a few years ago in which the memory/essence of a former Kree warrior was taking over Moonstone from time to time? I kept thinking of that as I was reading this issue. It seemed very similar. HMMMMMM - could the moonstone be connected in its origins to the bands?

I'm a firm believer Wendell is still alive and in the Cosmic Control Rod. Time will tell if I'm correct. That being said, the boy has no body. It's a problem - but one he's faced before! :)

QB

Expletive Deleted

11-01-2007, 09:04 AM

Does anyone remember a Thunderbolts story from a few years ago in which the memory/essence of a former Kree warrior was taking over Moonstone from time to time? I kept thinking of that as I was reading this issue. It seemed very similar. HMMMMMM - could the moonstone be connected in its origins to the bands?Linking the backstories of the Quantum Bands and the cosmic gemstones of the Lifestone Tree? Interesting idea. I like it. There's a built-in connection to the Kree, some great hinted-at history to be explored, and lots of links to other Marvel characters and concepts that'd make great additions to the Marvel cosmic scene.

For those who don't know what we're talking about, some references:
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/exomind.htm#Lifestone
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/alphaomegastones.htm

I'm a firm believer Wendell is still alive and in the Cosmic Control Rod. Time will tell if I'm correct. That being said, the boy has no body. It's a problem - but one he's faced before!That's been my theory, too.

Eumenides

11-01-2007, 09:56 AM

I'm really done with the Annihilation: Conquest. I'm just getting the last issues of the minis, and that's it. Wraith was atrocious and dull; looking back, Nova wasn't that great either: the best idea, creating a female, Kree Nova, was wrapped up in two issues for no good reason; can't wait for Nova to be back on space. Only Starlord entertained me, and I feel it was because the plot had practically nothing to do with the main story.

And Quasar was just bad ideas from the beginning: the corruption of the bands: cliche! Never did understand why every time an Evil Guy gets hold of some mystical artefact, he has to leave something dark in it... really, just get rid of that crappy subplot for good! Moondragon turning into a Moon Dragon... sorry, stupid as hell, not matter how much Gage tries to tell us it's what inside that matters, I prefer human characters.

And Phylla is just boring.

And now Adam Warlock? I love the '70's as much as anyone else, but this character's coolness wore off a long time ago. And if he's connected to the Kree now, I figure it'll be retcon time soon. Conquest has been a big, disjointed mess from the beginning, and I'm not wasting any more of my time or money on it.

Lord S

11-01-2007, 10:33 AM

To quote McD's, "I'm lovin' it!"

Hats off to Mr. Gage...you did a GREAT job! I absolutely love Phyla as Quasar. I don't have anything against Wendell...change is a part of life, and comics, and it's time for Wendell fanboys to accept it, or stop reading, (and posting for that matter).

This will be the longest seven days of my life!

Bring on the Conquest!!!

Quasar's Bands

11-01-2007, 10:58 AM

To I don't have anything against Wendell...change is a part of life, and comics, and it's time for Wendell fanboys to accept it, or stop reading, (and posting for that matter).

Dude - really. "Wendell fanboys" do not have to accept anything, nor do they have to "stop reading." The Wendell fans are some of best fans around - they enjoy a character who has been around for decades, and even had a 60 comic series under his belt, but never reached his potential. Where lesser fans would "give up" - they do not. Also, Gage doesn't want them to "stop reading," because that means they "stop buying" and that in turn puts Gage and others out of business!

As for posting - the PURPOSE of posting is to vet both complaints and things you enjoy. Just because you disagree with a posters' position, doesn't mean that they should not post. In fact, that defeats the whole point of a message board!

One thing that I've liked about C.G. is that he has read the complaints AND the compliments - and shown that he is a real man. By a real man, I mean that he takes it all in and thinks about it and even addresses it on this message board, the newsarama message board, and others. That is very, very cool. You will never hear him tell people to "get over it" and to stop posting. Why? Because then readers will go away - and that, well, is the absolute last thing Marvel, DC or any comic publisher wants.

So post away, Wendell AND Phyla fans - and maybe someday there will be a marvel universe in which BOTH of them can serve as Quasars - the universe is certainly big enough for both! (And while you're on it - why not actually address the history of the Bands - and the Cosmic Control Rod - while you are at it?)

pesmerga316

11-01-2007, 11:12 AM

Im glad for Warlock being back, I need at least one A list cosmic persona present to really keep my interest. Hopefully they get to the thing with him and Gamora. As for marvel and their preivew issues, yea I spoiled myself last week. I also spoiled next weeks Conquest.... Not gonna mention anythng about it but wondering if anyone else has done likewise... Warlocks new looks is *interesting* I miss how it was in the Infinite series of the early 90's

Nevets F

11-01-2007, 11:34 AM

Great issue....and the best of the mini's.

Great job!

I am looking forward to more Quasar (Phyla) and Moondragon, and also Warlock.

Zero Hunter

11-01-2007, 11:42 AM

Well now that we have seen Warlock, Moondragon, Gamora, and Drax in the A:C minis that just leaves one member of the old Infinty Watch left. Everyones favorite troll Pip. I don't count Maxam since he went back to the his future or alternate dimensions or whereever he came from, and Thanos is dead so that just leaves the 5.

I just hope they explain why Adam is back from the little side dimension he was last seen in where he was teaching the new cosmic being how to use it powers, and show how the losers from the Ilumanati got the Soul Gem away from him.

The Deadpool

11-01-2007, 12:01 PM

I doubt they'll go into the Illuminatti/Soul Gem ordeal... Of course, long esposure to the gems seem to let you keep part of its power permanently so it might not matter...

Lord S

11-01-2007, 12:29 PM

Dude - really. "Wendell fanboys" do not have to accept anything, nor do they have to "stop reading." The Wendell fans are some of best fans around - they enjoy a character who has been around for decades, and even had a 60 comic series under his belt, but never reached his potential. Where lesser fans would "give up" - they do not. Also, Gage doesn't want them to "stop reading," because that means they "stop buying" and that in turn puts Gage and others out of business!

As for posting - the PURPOSE of posting is to vet both complaints and things you enjoy. Just because you disagree with a posters' position, doesn't mean that they should not post. In fact, that defeats the whole point of a message board!

One thing that I've liked about C.G. is that he has read the complaints AND the compliments - and shown that he is a real man. By a real man, I mean that he takes it all in and thinks about it and even addresses it on this message board, the newsarama message board, and others. That is very, very cool. You will never hear him tell people to "get over it" and to stop posting. Why? Because then readers will go away - and that, well, is the absolute last thing Marvel, DC or any comic publisher wants.

So post away, Wendell AND Phyla fans - and maybe someday there will be a marvel universe in which BOTH of them can serve as Quasars - the universe is certainly big enough for both! (And while you're on it - why not actually address the history of the Bands - and the Cosmic Control Rod - while you are at it?) Fair enough...but if these great fans of Wendell can express their concerns/complaints without having to be rude, it'd be much better.

You talk about real men...Andy Schmidt was as real as they come. A true class act. The guy took the time to network with us - fielding difficult questions from difficult fans, (and I was one of them), for months...and to see people continue to drag his name through the mud...well that's just uncalled for.

stingerman

11-01-2007, 12:45 PM

Fair enough...but if these great fans of Wendell can express their concerns/complaints without having to be rude, it'd be much better.

You talk about real men...Andy Schmidt was as real as they come. A true class act. The guy took the time to network with us - fielding difficult questions from difficult fans, (and I was one of them), for months...and to see people continue to drag his name through the mud...well that's just uncalled for.

Where have Wendell fans been rude? And if a couple posters have said things that doesnt mean it represents all Wendell fans.

As for dragging Andy's name "through the mud" -instances please.

Most fans I have talked with have a lot of respect for the guy albiet they might not agree with certain Wendell issues and are not too happy with the way Andy handled questions regarding Wendell's death pre-Nova mini series.

Baltho08

11-01-2007, 01:04 PM

I think Aniscape may have called Andy Schmidt a liar at some point, for hinting that Wendell would be back. Anyways, I'll mind my business now.
Peace.

EnDwiGast

11-01-2007, 02:52 PM

But you can't hold a whole fanbase responsible for the behavior of a few, sick twisted individuals.

For if you do, then shouldn't we blame the entire comic book fanbase?

And if the entire comic book fanbase is guilty, then isn't this an indictment of the comic book industry in general?

I put it to you, - isn't this an indictment of our entire American society?

Well, you can do whatever you want to us, but we're not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America. Gentlemen!

O say, can you see, by the dawn’s early light,
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming,
Whose broad stripes and bright stars, through the perilous fight,
O’er the ramparts we watched, were so gallantly streaming?
And the rockets’ red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there.
O say, does that star spangled banner yet wave
O’er the land of the free, and the home of the brave?

Lord S

11-01-2007, 02:59 PM

My bad, I never meant to paint all Wendell fans with same brush...only the sick and twisted few who have to insult people to vent their frustrations.

Chiasm

11-01-2007, 03:07 PM

EnDwiGast

11-01-2007, 03:20 PM

My bad, I never meant to paint all Wendell fans with same brush...only the sick and twisted few who have to insult people to vent their frustrations.

I was just having fun by adapting a quote from Animal House. ;)

StoneGold

11-01-2007, 03:26 PM

1. Newbies like me enjoying it for the story and great art.
2. Wendell fans hating because its not Wendell not for anything actually about the story.
3. Experienced fans realizing that change is way of life and remembering that this is Marvel where the next important powered character they kill permanantly will be the first important powered character they ever killed permanantly.

Or 4. That both the story and the art were uneven. The art had its moments, but I'm not really a fan of the long skinny panel layout, and at times it was weaker than others. As for the story, the whole structure was kind of a wash. I'm still not entirely sure what happened. Phyla and Moondragon fight a lot of random baddies and Super Adaptoid to get to the savior, Moonie goes all reptile, Phyla runs into Quasar who it turns out isn't the savior, but is just popping in to say hi, and oh, by the way, here's Adam Warlock? It probably didn't help that there was the editorial mandate to set up Warlock as the savior for the end mini, but this feels like a story without a beginning or an end - all middle.

Granted, I'm not a huge Phyla fan, dating back to before she was a lesbian, so don't try and drop that on me. PAD set her up as a character we weren't supposed to like. It worked on me. But I still think this was Christos' weakest story to date. And I generally like his writing. He's still one of those writers where I will follow him from project to project. But no one bats 1.000.

Brother Zag

11-01-2007, 03:40 PM

I went back and read Quasar/Wendell after the hardcore fans showed up here on the CBR boards and started badgering Andy Schmidt. I second the post that said he was a "real man" for all that he patiently put up with and 'splained to us. And to the Quasar nuts.

Some of the Quasar fans are fine folk, if a bit one note-y. I've come to understand how cool it was to see Wendell show up in Nova's mini, and how devastating it must have been to see Annihilus fry him. But some of the Quasar heads can be kinda nasty. Who knew the bottom half of Wendell's uniform were Crankypants?

aniscape

11-01-2007, 03:45 PM

I think Aniscape may have called Andy Schmidt a liar at some point, for hinting that Wendell would be back. Anyways, I'll mind my business now.
Peace.

You know... in all fairness I think I have been very good at keeping my temper in check and when voicing my opinion being as thurough of why I feel a certian way (a little long winded at times) I have never outwright used melevolent attitude toward anyone. I think the my last response below was the most emotionally specific comment I have made on these boards. I have always spoken highly of Andy and when I have had a disagreement I addressed it directly at him and he always responed in kind. I do not agree with his decision about Wendell and I do feel like he lead the fans on but never called him a liar...If I have he must have hit a realy sore spot but cannot recall.

Even in my rant below I make sure to point out that I hold nothing against Christos and on mumerous occasions have proposed that he write take the helm as writer on a Wendell Series.

You all know how I feel by now so I will make this quick...

Appreciate the slap in the face thanks Marvel!

Christos...nothing against you but the moment with Wendell in the book was not appreciated at all...not one bit...whoever decided to do that just doesn't really realize how passionate Wendell fans are...sorry but that move just caused me to drop comics altogether till Wendell actually returns.

I will post and see what comes but since Wendell has been treated the way he has in the past year and (yes I mean ANdy) how they just pulled the fans along in hopes that we would see him return.

Done...until I see otherwise!!

The Quote above was right after reading the book and it is the most honest feeling I had after closing the book shut... no retrospect...no reflections... just how I felt and wanted to share.

Apon re-reading it I agree that it is a bit strong but in all my time in posting here I have always strived to be honest and sincere on how I felt.

I appreciate that a door has been opened for Wendell's return but my decision to continue buying comics might seem harsh but I am not enjoying them right now so since I work hard for my cash I believe it is my right to choose what to spend it on... and in a small way would like Marvel to know what would spark my interest in returning me to comics again which is Wendell's return (doesn't make sense to you than I am sorry but this is how I feel)

I do apologize for displaying my angst and frustration in front of you all and will refrain from doing so in the future...

By the way Anyone pick up Eye of Judgement for the PS3 I would love to take some frustration out on someone in that game...Christos? :D

XPac

11-01-2007, 03:50 PM

Quasar (Wendell) was always one of those characters I knew existed but never read except when forced to by some crossover. Or when he was in the Avengers. He was very meh to me. He didn't suck but he wasn't great. He was meh.

And I didn't pick up Annihiliation to my regret but I'm picking up Conquest and I'm liking Phylla much better as Quasar than I ever did Wendell. I'm even liking Moondragon, a character who I really didn't like in past experiences with her. Phylla and Heather are not meh.

It seems to me that the opinions on this mini go basically one of three ways:

1. Newbies like me enjoying it for the story and great art.
2. Wendell fans hating because its not Wendell not for anything actually about the story.
3. Experienced fans realizing that change is way of life and remembering that this is Marvel where the next important powered character they kill permanantly will be the first important powered character they ever killed permanantly.

I think you make a lot of pretty unfair assumptions here.

I am a Wendel fan. But believe it or not there are many many comic books I do read and enjoy that don't happen to have Wendel in them. Likwise, there are many I don't like, and my view of Wendel was a non-factor in that.

I"m sorry you think so little of the Wendel fans if you honestly believe they are completely incapable of having an opinion on a book that's not influenced by their opinion of that one character. Hopefully others on the board will be fairer to you than you are to them.

Quasar's Bands

11-01-2007, 04:25 PM

Me, personally, I'm psyched that we have a character as diverse as Phyla running around out there and trying to be a hero. The fact she's a space hero FEMALE is a big deal. A LESBIAN makes it even cooler. Half KREE and Half TITANIAN makes it even COOLER. The fact that she stumbled upon the Bands does not make me think less about her, or the fact that she has TONS of potential. I am NOT anti-phyla, and this story was good for what it is worth.

I just happen to be one of many that ALSO thinks that there really is only one Quasar, and that's Wendell. I'm not so pleased she calls herself Quasar, because it just doesn't seem correct. I'd rather she made up a new name for herself. I'd also rather that Wendell returned and took on the mantle again, perhaps finding a way to duplicate the bands so that his role of Protector of the Universe can be divided equally. The Universe has PLENTY of room for both of them with both of their stories. (Well, OK, I don't like the idea that Moondragon is in her current position permanently, but I don't believe that will last past more than one other comics writer anyway, 'cause me and many hot-blooded guys likie the girl kissin'.... oh yeah :) ).

Nova3333

11-01-2007, 05:13 PM

As a number of Nova fans, myself included, have also joined the Quantum Zone (Thanks Wallred) to do the unique thing of trying to interact two different yet very similiar fan-bases together I posted the following below today:

I've read the posts both at CBR and here (QZF) over the matter of Quasar 4 and to be truthful I will say something. I do appreciate the fact that you and other Wendell Vaughn fans are fully devoted to him as Quasar. There are I dare say the same deep feelings that Nova fans have for our Richard Rider. I do personally though, even though I've followed Rich since I was 15, love the character dearly, etc but do I consider myself to be fanatical about him. That's a tough one which in all fairness I can't answer. Sure I would feel guttered if Marvel had, lets say killed off Rich in AN4 and Wendell had gone on to be the star of Annihilation BUT then would I go on and think. Right Marvel have done this and now I hate every Quasar fan in the whole universe cause he, Wendell, went forward while our poor Rich was zapped into fairy dust.. Course I'd be angry but I wouldn't dare consider hating any other fan cause I know from attending comic conventions that every character, Superman, Batman, Spiderman, etc have very loyal and dedicated followers BUT in the end we're all the same, we're all human.
I do hope that one day Wendell does come back and you're be happy. Rich, for a while did disappear into comic limbo after ROM 24 and the concept of Nova was brought back..BUT only in name as Frankie Raye became Nova, herald of Galactus. Now whether that was a sore wound in Nova fans at the time I don't know; What I do know is that after a time of rest, Rich did come back in New Warriors and then came back in two more on-goings before having another period of on-off appearences till Annihilation came along. The same set-up has applied to other Marvel heroes: Spiderman and Ben Reiley, Steve Rodgers and USAgent. In the end the original always came back. The same will one day apply to Wendell Vaughn. He may well share the same universe as Phyla-Vell and yes you may like or not. Quasar 4 , after I read it does offer some hope. It leaves a plot string dangling for future Wendell appearences. The door isn't shut. Nova too has been a rollar coaster ride since the new ongoing: When I saw Nova 4 and saw Rich's roasted corpse I though, okay That's it. They've killed him! But did I throw the comic away? Or rip it up? No. I kept with it and in the end the "Conquest" arc had been a very good story and yes thankfully Rich came back but even now he's still at risk from the Phage. That's good plotting and stroy-telling. Its all very well boycotting Marvel. That's a heat of a monent reaction and I feel for you but Marvel do produce a lot of good comics and even during the years Nova was in limbo I never stopped collecting or hoping Nova would come back. He did and Wendell will too. It's a question of time. For what it is worth I do want to feature wendell in one of my Nova fics cause he's a great character and I think we did miss out on a good Nova/Wendell team up. Hopefully during the time you wait for his return in the real-world, maybe you have time to make this fan-reality come true as a sorta compensation. But stick to it Anni. I have and it will pay off. DAZ."

I'll add that I hope that in a perfect world both Wendell supporters and Phyla-Vell supporters can one day put aside their differences and share the same marvel universal without undue antaganism. Guys: you can share the same space if you think about it, without putting daggers at each others backs. As is I like Phyla Vell, Wendell, Rich, Adam warlock and Pip the Bloody Troll and uncle tom cobbley an' all!

Peace!!

christosgage

11-01-2007, 05:17 PM

By the way Anyone pick up Eye of Judgement for the PS3 I would love to take some frustration out on someone in that game...Christos? :D

If I had a PS3 I'd never get anything done. But feel free to send me cake. ;)

40yearoldnovafan

11-01-2007, 06:03 PM

And I didn't pick up Annihiliation to my regret but I'm picking up Conquest and I'm liking Phylla much better as Quasar than I ever did Wendell. ...

Pick up Annihilation. It was not only good stuff, but you get to see how Phyla gained the bands and how she attempted to help Nova defeat Annihilus.

Also, if you get the Nova mini, you'll see what happened to the original Quasar and also learn why some of Quasar (Wendell) fans cared so much about him.

So far, I enjoyed Annihilation better than Conquest, but that may be due to the first event being so Nova heavy. And of course, I loved Nova's issues of Conquest.

Jimmy

Shyft

11-01-2007, 06:21 PM

You all know how I feel by now so I will make this quick...

Appreciate the slap in the face :mad: thanks Marvel!

Christos...nothing against you but the moment with Wendell in the book was not appreciated at all...not one bit...whoever decided to do that just doesn't really realize how passionate Wendell fans are...sorry but that move just caused me to drop comics altogether till Wendell actually returns.

I will post and see what comes but since Wendell has been treated the way he has in the past year and (yes I mean ANdy) how they just pulled the fans along in hopes that we would see him return.

Done...until I see otherwise!!

dropping all comics till a character that never had a massive following or commercially productive book returns? Bit extreme, but hope you enjoyed comics books. BEcause if you stick to your guns, theres a good chance you wont be reading any for a long time.

I agree Phyla shouldn't be Quasar, but that really is a ridiculous step to take.

Cthulhudrew

11-01-2007, 06:32 PM

That's been my theory, too.

Having finally bought and read #4, I'm a subscriber to this theory now. It makes the most sense as to where/how/if Wendell turns up next, after what he does to cleanse the bands of Annihilus' presence.

In fact, I'd say that if Annihilus does turn up again somewhere, a Wendell resurrection would be very easily accomplished at this point.

Somebody

11-01-2007, 06:36 PM

Well, let's see... I'll keep it down to four points...

You've got a Phyla practically unrecognisable from her previous appearances (and you can pretty much "ditto" Moondragon to that, even without the "Moon Dragon" thing)...
A huge chunk of issue 2 was devoted to recapping New Defenders...
You've got this stupid (a word I make no apology for - I've gone on about this before) Annihilius-corrupting-the-bands thing... which is then dismissed abruptly in a page and a bit of the last issue...
Adam Warlock being the big reveal, who I'm no fan of....

Sorry, this mini goes into the "sub-Wraith" category. That puts it about 2-2.5/10, which is about as low as you get without sinking to the levels of Starblast and The Draco...

Kyle R

11-01-2007, 06:51 PM

I'm a firm believer Wendell is still alive and in the Cosmic Control Rod. Time will tell if I'm correct. That being said, the boy has no body. It's a problem - but one he's faced before! :)
What happens to the Cosmic Control Rod when Annihilus dies? I'm not at all familar with the character outside of ANNIHILATION. I know he automatically spawns a new body that retains his memories, but does the new body come with a new Cosmic Control Rod, or does he have to retrieve it from his corpse?

Despite the treaty, I can't see Nova or Ronan being stupid enough to just hand such a powerful item over to Ravenous.

Mysterio's Helmet

11-01-2007, 06:57 PM

Yeah, you know what I kind of saw while I was rereading this:

Wendell/Eon-Epoch

Phylla/Supremor

Both have their "conductors" now. Just a similarity I don't think anybody has brought up........

Possibly done to bring Phylla more in line with what Wendell had????

And from Quasar's Bands previous post:

"I just happen to be one of many that ALSO thinks that there really is only one Quasar, and that's Wendell. I'm not so pleased she calls herself Quasar, because it just doesn't seem correct. I'd rather she made up a new name for herself. *snip* The Universe has PLENTY of room for both of them with both of their stories. "

Exactly. Most of us have the problem with the nametheft. It wasn't a station. Never was. It was just a name Wendell gave himself after he figured out Marvel Man was kind of lame. And most of us "Wendell fans" would be just as happy to entertain a Phylla: Conquest series.........

......alongside a Quasar series with Mr. Vaughn.

Can it be done? Absolutely! The door is open.

And on a more professional note, Christos... you on strike?

aniscape

11-01-2007, 07:03 PM

dropping all comics till a character that never had a massive following or commercially productive book returns? Bit extreme, but hope you enjoyed comics books. BEcause if you stick to your guns, theres a good chance you wont be reading any for a long time.

I agree Phyla shouldn't be Quasar, but that really is a ridiculous step to take.

Yeah...you are right it is a drastic step to take... It's about the Joy of comics more then it is Wendell...he is the icing...

I don't like what I am reading with the rest of Marvel (except Thor and Nova) Cap is dead...Stark is not Stark :( ... Hulk is ...well so it's not just about Wendell...with him around I have more patience with the industry...just the way it works for me

...thinking it through a bit I think i will support what I think they are doing right...so Nova fans fear not I will be buying and Thor is the ray of sunshine in an otherwise dismal universe right now...

Christos...you have a great grasp for each character you right about...if the return of Wendell is far far away...how about helming Iron Man and bringing back Stark...

Oh and Christos...as for some cake you could check with Andy and see if he still has a certain peice of cake still available :evilsmile

ivesaidway2much

11-01-2007, 07:13 PM

Elegance Liberty

11-01-2007, 07:20 PM

I dunno, I think EVERYTHING about 'Conquest' has been a total disaster so far... well, IMHO, anyways.

One factor -that's related to the topic- is this: The warring between the Quasar fans has nearly killed any sort of compassion I had for BOTH sides. Now I just feel this unwanted apathy towards both Wendell AND Phyla. Which I don't want to have.

Considering that I get blasted on a fairly frequent basis over at Comic Boards for defending Beta Ray Bill, it does seem fairly contradictory that I'd be apathetic towards Phyla, who is also a character that -by all accounts and purposes- "inherited" the powers of another, well-loved character. I'd imagine that if Bill were introduced today, he'd probably get the SAME amount of anger (righteous or otherwise) directed towards him that Phyla is getting now. So in a way, I DO feel slightly more sympathetic towards Phyla's fans in this case. I'm willing to look past the name and the Quantum Bands to see the potential she has... and in a way, I'm actually happy she's getting SOME development after being in character limbo for so long, even if it's catching heat right now.

But on the flip side, I do enjoy Wendell, really, I do. I think he's an interesting character and it's a shame they brought him back only to kill him about 2-ish issues later. That ain't fair, man. So in a way, I can kinda see why Wendell's fans are upset. But if past deaths mean anything, he'll be back again, some way and some how.

I'm not calling for a truce or whatever. Everyone can agree to disagree for all I care. I'm the type of person who hates arguing and fights, especially when it comes to characters that I like equally. And it hurts me that I can't enjoy this mini -and even some of Wendell's past appearances- these days because I feel "dirty" for liking both equally.

But just as Thor and Beta Ray Bill, Hulk and She-Hulk, and Jean Grey and Rachel Summers co-exsist in the same universe (i.e. similar powers from the same source); I'm sure in a few years time Wendell and Phyla can co-exsist together. At least, that's my sincerest hope.

But hey, that's just my two cents.

As for the Quasar mini, I'll probably read it in the trades. I know one of my friends might enjoy this (since she's into femslash and dragons), so I will recommend it to her at some point in time when it's accessible for her to read.

Lord S

11-01-2007, 07:27 PM

Why is it a ridiculous step to take? I would think a kick in the pocket book is the move most likely to get the attention of a business. Assuming that every Wendell fan is angry enough to drop all of Marvel...and assuming that the number of new fans Marvel gains don't outnumber the ones on the way out...

Take me, for instance...I had a moderate understanding and appreciation for Wendell before his untimely demise. In other words, I was totally neutral toward the character. I didn't know, or care, about Phyla until the first Annihilation. Now I'm a fan of hers...and would most likely pick up an ongoing series.

Imagine there were a lot more people like me...if Marvel could replace every one Wendell fan with 1.5 or two Phyla fans, then why would they even bother bringing him back? Personally, I think they did a good job of accommodating the still-grieving Wendell fans by showing him in this issue...not to mention, treated him with dignity.

Enigmanaut

11-01-2007, 07:33 PM

Exactly. Most of us have the problem with the nametheft. It wasn't a station. Never was. It was just a name Wendell gave himself after he figured out Marvel Man was kind of lame. And most of us "Wendell fans" would be just as happy to entertain a Phylla: Conquest series.........

......alongside a Quasar series with Mr. Vaughn.

And here lies something I had said for months. I have no problem with Phyla. I have no problem with the Quantum Bands being in her possession while Wendell is dead. I have absolutely no problem with her being Wendell's successor as Band Wielder or Protector of the Universe (a position she has not actually been appointed to). I have a problem with her calling herself Quasar. Quasar is Wendell. Period. Full stop. End of discussion.

Giving her the name Quasar isn't just her succeeding him in his station, it's an attempt to steal credibility in that station by adopting his name. All it does is cheapen the name, and it diminishes Phyla by not allowing her to finally develop her own identity and legacy. Why can't she be the one Mar-Vell offspring who actually stands apart and finds her own way? Why must all of Mar's children adopt the legacies of others?

And this is why those who like Phyla should be hoping for Wendell to return as much as we Wendell fans are... so that he goes back to being Quasar (even should the bands remain with her, and he finds a new powerset... not my ideal, but not unacceptable), and she can finally shine on her own.

As a review of this series. It was ok. I can't say Conquest has really been as thrilling to me as the first Annihilation. The Nova bits have been great, but I found Starlord a little dull, Phyla a little overlong (it's premise seems like a two issue arc stretched to four), and Wraith excruciatingly bad.

I'm one of the Wendell fans who appreciated the appearance of Wendell in issue 4 of this run (despite an earlier statement based on a really inaccurate description of the appearance). I really feel it's the first step in his return. It not only opened a door, it showed him going through it. I finally feel his return will happen.

Things I'm not happy with: Adam Warlock. I'm really not a fan of the character. He's a walking plot device with no personality, if you ask me. I'd have preferred him to stay gone. And the Big Bad... I know who it is, and I'm just thinking it's a bizarre choice. I'm not sanguine about how Conquest is gonna turn out. I'll keep reading only due to be invested in Nova, who is actually a great deal more like Wendell than Phyla is.

stingerman

11-01-2007, 07:34 PM

One factor -that's related to the topic- is this: The warring between the Quasar fans has nearly killed any sort of compassion I had for BOTH sides. Now I just feel this unwanted apathy towards both Wendell AND Phyla. Which I don't want to have.

You know? I dont really see "us" Wendell fans warring against Phyla fans. However, any mention of Wendell brings out a certain rudeness in the few Phyla fans here. Not just a rudeness toward Wendell fans but any poster who asks.

We list specific reasons, that makes sense, why we dont agree with Phyla being Quasar. What's wrong with that? Its a funny thing because we can always back up what we say. The select Phyla people just go on and on insulting or making stuff up (as in the case with Aniscape calling Andy a liar -or can you provide the link?).

And we know the *real* reason they like Phyla- as I am sure you all do.

XPac

11-01-2007, 07:38 PM

Imagine there were a lot more people like me...if Marvel could replace every one Wendell fan with 1.5 or two Phyla fans, then why would they even bother bringing him back?

Course, the better question is why bother trying to replace Wendel fans with Phyla fans when they could just have both?

Phyla had a power set and identity before she became Quasar. The character could have easily be used in exactly the same maner without killing Quasar.

Lord S

11-01-2007, 07:44 PM

The select Phyla people just go on and on insulting or making stuff up What 'select' Phyla people?

(as in the case with Aniscape calling Andy a liar -or can you provide the link?). Well I didn't say he called him a liar...I was more irked at his first post in this thread, which he has already acknowledged and apologized for.

And we know the *real* reason they like Phyla- as I am sure you all do. Guilty! :p

Course, the better question is why bother trying to replace Wendel fans with Phyla fans when they could just have both?

Phyla had a power set and identity before she became Quasar. The character could have easily be used in exactly the same maner without killing Quasar. Nothing wrong with trying something new. If it fails, then bring back Wendell.

Enigmanaut

11-01-2007, 07:48 PM

Course, the better question is why bother trying to replace Wendel fans with Phyla fans when they could just have both?

Phyla had a power set and identity before she became Quasar. The character could have easily be used in exactly the same maner without killing Quasar.

Or, hell, they could have had this: When she came in contact with the Quantum bands, her energy absorption powers interfaced with them, pulling Wendell (who had been converted to energy and absorbed into his own bands) back into physical form, reversing what Annihilus did, and resurrecting him. It would have weakened Annihilus, probably blowing off his hands and forearms, added another fighter into the battle, and given Rich a real opening to do his Annihilus de-gutting maneuver.

Absorbing the Quantum energy could even have been made to alter her nega-bands, making them a Quantum band-Nega Band fusion. More powerful than the Nega-Bands, but less versatile than the true Quantum bands.

If they had done that, it would have been a real kick-ass ending, given Wendell back to his fans, still have allowed for a (albeit different) Phyla miniseries, and made it so that solicit (... all this and Quasar!) wasn't a complete and utter lie.

XPac

11-01-2007, 07:48 PM

Nothing wrong with trying something new. If it fails, then bring back Wendell.

I'd argue if you're upsetting Wendell fans, there potentially is something wrong with doing it. Why potentially turn off one set of fans to get new ones when you can try and snag all of the above? You don't need to go out with the old in order to get in with the new.

Again, it was completely unecessary since Phyla was already an established character with her own powers. She simply didn't need to be called Quasar. She didn't need to get the Q bands (as she already had a set of fully functioning nega bands).

Enigmanaut

11-01-2007, 07:52 PM

I'd argue if you're upsetting Wendell fans, there potentially is something wrong with doing it. Why potentially turn off one set of fans to get new ones when you can try and snag all of the above?

Again, it was completely unecessary since Phyla was already an established character with her own powers. She simply didn't need to be called Quasar. She didn't need to get the Q bands (as she already had a set of fully functioning nega bands).

And they could have just given her a new name... like Quanta, or Quantara or something.

EnDwiGast

11-01-2007, 07:52 PM

What 'select' Phyla people?.

I see that as an effort not to label all Phyla fans with the same brush

Well I didn't say he called him a liar...I was more irked at his first post in this thread, which he has already acknowledged and apologized for.

:) We all can get a little carried away at time.

Nothing wrong with trying something new. If it fails, then bring back Wendell.

Absolutely nothing wrong with something new. I like to see new ideas and concepts. Wraith is something new. But replacing one character with another really isn't all that new or fresh.

That last part is what I am trying to find a way to work around. "If it fails, then bring back Wendell." As someone wanting to bring back Wendell, then that forces me to want to see someone else fail - and i don't really want that.

It didn't have to be either/or, and it still doesn't. I hope Marvel finds a way for both characters to succeed and move forward.

XPac

11-01-2007, 07:56 PM

And they could have just given her a new name... like Quanta, or Quantara or something.

She could do the same thing her brother did and steal one of Monica's name. No one is using Photon. I don't think Monica is even using Pulsar.

A name would have been easy. And the issue of power set and legacy is already there. She was perfectly good to go without having to kill of Wendel.

drwho

11-01-2007, 08:07 PM

I think what bothers us Wendell fans some is the fact that Quasar was a name that he picked for a specific personal reason. Marvel just decided to give Phyla the name. I don't see the same meaning here. Unless perhaps Moon Dragon gets her kicks knowing she finally made it with Quasar.

Will.S

11-01-2007, 08:33 PM

I'd argue if you're upsetting Wendell fans, there potentially is something wrong with doing it. Why potentially turn off one set of fans to get new ones when you can try and snag all of the above? You don't need to go out with the old in order to get in with the new.

Again, it was completely unecessary since Phyla was already an established character with her own powers. She simply didn't need to be called Quasar. She didn't need to get the Q bands (as she already had a set of fully functioning nega bands).
Marvel just doesn't seem sure what to do with the Mar-Vell family.

They kill of Genis, bring back Mar-Vell, and position Noh-Varr to become the next Captain Marvel. Then they kill off Wendell and make Phyla into "Quasar" with the Mar-Vell legacy in tow. For some odd reason I just can't bring myself to call her Quasar, it just doesn't fit very well on her and like people have said it makes it seem as if she were stealing the legacy away.

Personally I can't care for the character a whole lot although I did like this issue due to some cool things shown like her last fight with the Super Adaptoid, the Supreme Intelligence being the person talking to Phyla, and Warlock coming back so that might put it a few notches above Wraith. As for the art, Mike Lilly can do some cool art but I think it's far too loose for this type of book. I think he should have been given an an inker to tighten up the lines since some of the art just blends together too much and a colorist who doesn't make everything look so drab.

All in all a pretty decent mini, I'd give it a 6.5/10. However, I'd be hesitant to pick up another solo mini about her outside of the Conquest mini itself unless it's really good or if Wendell Vaughn comes back as Quasar.

Zero Hunter

11-01-2007, 08:45 PM

Marvel just doesn't seem sure what to do with the Mar-Vell family.

They kill of Genis, bring back Mar-Vell, and position Noh-Varr to become the next Captain Marvel. Then they kill off Wendell and make Phyla into "Quasar" with the Mar-Vell legacy in tow. For some odd reason I just can't bring myself to call her Quasar, it just doesn't fit very well on her and like people have said it makes it seem as if she were stealing the legacy away.
.

I blame what happened to Genis on Peter David. He so screwed up the character in that second run that it was mercy killing when they offed him in Thunderbolts. Noh-Varr is a cool character but they should have never have even hinted at him being Captain Marvel. The whole Hulkling mess had potenial untill they really screwed up and brought back the orignal Captain Marvel for nothing more than a shock value.

Will.S

11-01-2007, 09:03 PM

I blame what happened to Genis on Peter David. He so screwed up the character in that second run that it was mercy killing when they offed him in Thunderbolts.
Peter took the cosmic awareness power driving Genis crazy to an interesting place since the most entertaining aspect of that was seeing the MU's reaction to that. But I did like Genis in Peter David's first volume of Captain Marvel A LOT more since he and Rick had a better banter and he was more heroic in the end.

The stuff in the relaunch Captain Marvel book was just balls to the wall sick, sick, stuff but I also understand that Peter was a bit let down because he had most of that run with Chris Cross in mind due to his art and great facial expressions.

Cthulhudrew

11-02-2007, 12:28 AM

Peter took the cosmic awareness power driving Genis crazy to an interesting place since the most entertaining aspect of that was seeing the MU's reaction to that. But I did like Genis in Peter David's first volume of Captain Marvel A LOT more since he and Rick had a better banter and he was more heroic in the end.

I liked the mad Genis idea a lot at first (it was admittedly a bit jarring coming from the previous series), but when it fell apart for me was around issue #7- whenever it was that the story ended with the proposal that Genis kill Eternity, and then in the next issue it had already happened. There was this real disconnect with the narrative there- all sorts of expository dialogue that was just jarring; it would have been much better to show than tell what had taken place.

The series kind of went off track around there for me (the artwork didn't help much either) for much of the rest of the run, not getting back to territory I liked until towards the end.

Miss Kitty Fantastico

11-02-2007, 01:03 AM

Considering that it has to flow into Annihilation Conquest, and thus couldn't have a complete resolution, I thought the miniseries was about as good as it could be. The quest for the saviour - for me, anyway, since I don't know much about Marvel cosmic, so the relevation was just a name to me - took a bit of a back seat to the quest to kick the Super-Adaptoid's metal arse, and that rocked. I loved the climactic battle, and the classic space opera way Phyla outsmarted the tin can; Captain Kirk would be proud (albeit frustrated that she wasn't interested in him), and the trick of her re-absorbing the energy the Adaptoid stole to repower her bands was neat, and one I didn't see coming. Phyla did seem to get into a very self-narrating mood, but then again, only four issues in the miniseries - I didn't mind the slight overflow of text, since it allowed space to lay all these cool ideas on the table.

I liked the cameo from Wendell too - not that I'd ever read him, but you can't help but be aware (mainly due to vocal fans, as well as Phyla herself mentioning him earlier) that he was there first, and she's following in his footsteps. I liked that he wasn't just shuffled out of the way, but instead got this mythic everlasting-battle-against-evil send-off - I don't know the guy, but I'll give him a salute anyway. And the role he played in helping Phyla believe in herself as Quasar fitted well - I loved "What matters is what we'll do."

Somebody

11-02-2007, 06:20 AM

They kill of Genis, bring back Mar-Vell, and position Noh-Varr to become the next Captain Marvel.

Wasn't it Gravity they were positioning? The original plan was for his death in Beyond to set him up to become PotU & Captain Marvel. When the Mar-Vell thing came about, they still killed him, but then just reset-buttoned him instead.

XPac

11-02-2007, 07:21 AM

Wasn't it Gravity they were positioning? The original plan was for his death in Beyond to set him up to become PotU & Captain Marvel. When the Mar-Vell thing came about, they still killed him, but then just reset-buttoned him instead.

Perhaps they were thinking about setting up both to be the new Cap at different points. The Illuminati issue with Marvel Boy seemed to plant a seed that he could be the next Cap.

Marvel is just all over the place with the Vell's for some reason.

themightyjbowski

11-02-2007, 08:23 AM

drwho

11-02-2007, 08:33 AM

You know what I would think would be interesting is seeing how Phyla's people view same sex relationships. It would be an interesting look into Phyla's culture along with the Kree.

XPac

11-02-2007, 08:41 AM

Actually Deus, Moondragon chased after both Wendell and Genis.
So I'd have to say she was bi. Why do ppl seem to forget these things? lol
It was the samething with Willow on buffy the vampire slayer. Did ppl
forget that she was with Oz and into Xander? lol Those were 2 pretty
big relationships for her. Geez. Once again it prove's ppl only see or
remember what they want to. Ah well. And for the record, I have no
trouble with anyone of any sexual orientation. :p

I think a lot of homosexuals have had relationships with people of the opposite sex before coming out. So it doesn't necessarily mean you're bi.

In the case of Willow, once she started dating other women she flat out said she was gay. During the last season, when a magical jacket made her fall in love with another guy she was planning on using a spell to turn the guy into a woman, so her preference there was pretty clear.

We don't know about Moon Dragon of course. It's possible she's bounced back and forth between men and women in the past. And it's possible that if she ever breaks up with Phyla she could continue to bounch back and forth between men and women, or just stick with women. Or go back to guys.

Somebody

11-02-2007, 09:07 AM

You know what I would think would be interesting is seeing how Phyla's people view same sex relationships. It would be an interesting look into Phyla's culture along with the Kree.

That's another thing that's been bugging me. There's been all this talk, both in-and-out of books about how Phyla's "Kree". She's not - she's half-Kree by breeding, but she's spent all her life (including the implanted childhood memories) on Titan until VERY recently. There shouldn't be any great emotional links there, and she shouldn't be seeing the Kree as "Her people" any more than she'd see humans [who the Titans come from] as such (hell, if Thanos hadn't kidnapped Moondragon, she wouldn't have got involved in Annihilation at all, since it never reached the Sol System).

Cthulhudrew

11-02-2007, 09:10 AM

There shouldn't be any great emotional links there (hell, if Thanos hadn't kidnapped Moondragon, she wouldn't have got involved in Annihilation at all, since it never reached the Sol System).

I could believe that part of her implanted memories included an abiding knowledge and love of the Kree people and culture (perhaps even memories of trips to Kree-Lar), if only out of respect for her late father. Mar-Vell- though hated by the Kree ruling parties, still had a great affection for his people from everything I remember.

Somebody

11-02-2007, 09:26 AM

I could believe that part of her implanted memories included an abiding knowledge and love of the Kree people and culture (perhaps even memories of trips to Kree-Lar), if only out of respect for her late father. Mar-Vell- though hated by the Kree ruling parties, still had a great affection for his people from everything I remember.

Genis didn't.

drwho

11-02-2007, 09:26 AM

Somebody

11-02-2007, 09:41 AM

Uh... do you mean Ultra Girl? MU Marvel Girls have been Jean Grey, Valeria von Doom and Rachel Summers.

Quasar's Bands

11-02-2007, 10:18 AM

This a slight tangent, but figured I might get an answer in this thread rather than make another one. I know that Ultra Girl that had her own mini was a Kree. How did she have the powers that she had?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra_Girl

when in doubt, check out wikipedia.

And look - Phyla IS 1/2 kree. It doesn't matter where she was raised, the Krees are aliens and therefore have their own gentic code, etc. Thus, the fact that Kree and Eternal (humans modified by Krees) DNA were merged into a hybrid person is interesting. Who knows if alien/tweaked humans are smarter, stronger, or better than either race alone? OR maybe insanity (like what happend to her brother) is what happens inevitably because of this mix? So many possibilities....

(I would argue this mix is more stable than her 1/2 brother - Hulkling. Skrull and Kree together - wow!)

BooCoo

11-02-2007, 10:52 AM

Hot threads here.

Well, I'm a Wendell fan also but haven't posted as much recently, because I'm seeing the same arguments being recycled a lot. But here's my take on the deal:

Personally, I don't see why both "Quasars" can't exist in the same universe. In fact, there's excellent groundwork for them to be friends as well as allies. One of the reasons I think people haven't wrapped around the Annihilation deal yet is that you're seeing a comic in its early stages with new/revised characters. When's the last time anyone could say that? With the exception of Firestorm, all my favorite characters were well established with villians, background, and history by the time I read them. Its going to take time for Phyla to accumulate the "three dimensions" so until that happens yeah, the book will be a little disjointed.

I don't need for Wendell to come back the exact same way he was. That was the inital reason why so many people were blah on him in the first place. Do I want him to return? Sure! But not to go backwards to the status quo of being a prop for the bands.

He can keep the cool threads, though.

And you other Wendell fans....read between the lines! Beyond the fact that your fav character could return. Pay attention to what happened in the bands! Does Wendell have telepathy now? Phyla was THINKING, not speaking, when he responded to her. What was he battling Annihilus with? When he was an energy being before he retained the cosmic awareness (which inexplicably disappeared later). The pep talk to Phyla didn't bother me. It was totally Wendell, and in keeping with his character. Was he battling the "bug" with a power beyond the quantum realm, or part of it? And where did the two shunt to? Questions to be answered another day. I wish she would have her own 'brand name' though, but it isn't a real issue anymore. I got the impression Wendell himself knows its time for him to be SOMETHING ELSE, SOMETHING MORE.

I wasn't aware the super Kree mind was still alive, I thought he was killed (my bad).

Can't believe Moondragon will stay in that form, either. Too limiting. She may have a mental block about that right now.

The transitional panel with the Wendell scene confused me too until I read where it occured inside the bands. What Wendell was and where he was until he pulled himself together, no one knows.

Don't know if someone will come up with a virus to neutralize the phalanx, or make them unable to assimilate. I'm thinking thats the only way to stop it. Also, its odd how Phyla doesn't seem to have full access to the quantum field (through Infinity). Instead of her bands just being online, they're still somewhat depowered. Does Infinity not fully support her?

And why is Phyla so vulnerable to this corruption by the bug? She's not the only being with warrior mindset.

The artwork was nice in places, not so in others. Wendell looked old in one panel, or his face was over drawn (a common thing I notice with male faces). Warlock looked completely different from the first panel and the last.

As far as Warlock goes, I thought he was fairly interesting before, even though his soul was 'neutral.' I don't know what happened after his journey in the pocket dimension, or why he's regenerating again. And on the subject of the infinity gems, keep this interesting fact in mind. They were a previous incarnation of Infinity herself! A common thread to all these characters. Ah, the wonders of the MU...and on that note, where's Kismet? She was created by the same process that made Adam.

Will Phyla tell Moon about her "Quasar:" sighting and what happened? It would prove interesting, her reaction and response.

Expletive Deleted

11-02-2007, 11:19 AM

Thus, the fact that Kree and Eternal (humans modified by Krees) DNA were merged into a hybrid person is interesting.The Inhumans are the ones modified by the Kree. The Eternals were modified by the Celestials.

It would've made for a nice correspondence if it were the other way around, though.

Somebody

11-02-2007, 11:49 AM

And look - Phyla IS 1/2 kree. It doesn't matter where she was raised, the Krees are aliens and therefore have their own gentic code, etc. Thus, the fact that Kree and Eternal (humans modified by Krees) DNA were merged into a hybrid person is interesting. Who knows if alien/tweaked humans are smarter, stronger, or better than either race alone?
But we're not talking about strength, or any other physical attributes. We're talking about IDENTITY, which is shaped by where you were born and who you were raised by. Genis didn't even KNOW he was half-Kree for most of his "life" (inverted commas because, literally, he did know for most of his life - since his early life was all fictional) - he thought Starfox was his father. When exactly Phyla was born isn't entirely clear given that she came in through a timeline reset, but the implication Elysius gave was that it was early on after Genis was, as did Genis' emerging memories of her being around during his "childhood", which suggests it was before Genis found out about his real dad, and possibly even before he was fully baked.

Logically, sure, she knows she's half-Kree. But that that's not an emotional connection, and it sure as hell doesn't make her as invested in the Kree side of her heritage as it does in the Titan side, or give her an intimate knowledge of Kree society or an impulse to genuflect before the Intelligence Supreme.

[And, just for the record, Titans are "second division" Eternals - they're not fully immortal, and not as powerful as their Earthen cousins (Except Mentor who IS an Earth Eternal and, for non-forebear reasons, Thanos). Uranians were "third division".]

ZNOP

11-02-2007, 03:09 PM

She could do the same thing her brother did and steal one of Monica's name. No one is using Photon. I don't think Monica is even using Pulsar.

What happened to Monica anyway? Wikipedia, 'ya got to love it. I am catching up on a lot of missed stories.

Brother Zag

11-02-2007, 03:23 PM

Have you seen Bill Roseman's article over on Newsarama? Speaking of Adam Warlock, who is definitely without his Soul Gem, Roseman says he wants to take him back to the Gil Kane days (you know, back before Starlin actually made him a viable character... er, back before Starlin made "HIM" into a viable character). Seems like they're ignoring Adam's more recent appearances, though, in the Thanos mini and the Greg Pak mini. Roseman says DnA are writing Adam in a new vein, after saying that:

the initial destructive arrival of the Annihilus Wave sent an avalanche of souls into the head of Adam Warlock

a MAD Adam Warlock? Hmmmm... could be cool.

I had to post here, though, since the Newsarama boards are nowhere near as cool or educated and informed...

Cthulhudrew

11-02-2007, 03:32 PM

Well, that would be pretty crappy (to ignore all his Starlin development- which is really what made him as a character) and take a step back to the Gil Kane Him.

That said, I've been wondering if the trauma he suffered (that Moondragon and the Supreme Intelligence discuss explicitly in Quasar #4) isn't an attempt to turn him into the Magus?

True he's not silver, like the Magus was when he re-emerged from his cocoon, but the notion of him being driven mad while in stasis definitely echoes the original Magus' origin (before his timeline was wiped out by Warlock's cosmic suicide).

Considering that Gamora's origins were tweaked by the universe balancing itself out after the fallout of Adam wiping out that timeline, maybe this would be the universe's way of restoring the status quo in regards to Adam as well?

Brother Zag

11-02-2007, 03:43 PM

Well, that would be pretty crappy (to ignore all his Starlin development- which is really what made him as a character) and take a step back to the Gil Kane Him.

That said, I've been wondering if the trauma he suffered (that Moondragon and the Supreme Intelligence discuss explicitly in Quasar #4) isn't an attempt to turn him into the Magus?

After reading that line in the Roseman article, I began to wonder if a thought I had as I read Q#4 could come true: What if during that "avalanche of souls" his Magus aspect and his Goddesss aspects reintegrated into his personality?

Kyle R

11-02-2007, 03:47 PM

Actually Deus, Moondragon chased after both Wendell and Genis.
So I'd have to say she was bi.
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you regarding Heather's orientation, but when was it that she persued a relationship with Genis? Not in the Peter David book where Moondragon's role was that of mentor. Or, at least as much of a mentor as someone like Moondragon is likely to be.

Kyle R

11-02-2007, 04:07 PM

But we're not talking about strength, or any other physical attributes. We're talking about IDENTITY, which is shaped by where you were born and who you were raised by. Genis didn't even KNOW he was half-Kree for most of his "life" (inverted commas because, literally, he did know for most of his life - since his early life was all fictional) - he thought Starfox was his father. When exactly Phyla was born isn't entirely clear given that she came in through a timeline reset, but the implication Elysius gave was that it was early on after Genis was, as did Genis' emerging memories of her being around during his "childhood", which suggests it was before Genis found out about his real dad, and possibly even before he was fully baked.

Logically, sure, she knows she's half-Kree. But that that's not an emotional connection, and it sure as hell doesn't make her as invested in the Kree side of her heritage as it does in the Titan side, or give her an intimate knowledge of Kree society or an impulse to genuflect before the Intelligence Supreme.
Obviously we know exactly what Genis and Phyla's simulated lives were like during their accelerated aging process. However, I find it fairly easy to believe that upon learning of her true heritage, Phyla decieded to educate herself and embrace Kree culture. That sort of thing isn't exactly uncommon amoungst peoples who learn about their ethnic heritage later in life.

Phyla started out rather arrogant regarding her abilities and believing that she'd make a better Captain Marvel than Genis; it's rather easy to believe those traits stem from her feeling that she's more Kree--in disposition if not genetics--than Genis.

Regardless, it just seems like such a minor thing to be concerned about. Phyla is still a realitivly new and unknown character, so there could be any number of explinations.

Zel

11-02-2007, 04:17 PM

The mini was ok, except for the ending, which brought things down a notch with it's "power of love and imagination" short circuiting the logical machine. Way cliched.

Phyla and Moondragon are characters with potential though and hope to see some more of them.

Cthulhudrew

11-02-2007, 05:16 PM

Genis didn't.

True, but Genis was pretty much the rebel son from day one. He did, on the other hand, talk about being Kree far more than he did being half-Eternal, which might be indicative of something.

agrich

11-02-2007, 05:21 PM

Well, that would be pretty crappy (to ignore all his Starlin development- which is really what made him as a character) and take a step back to the Gil Kane Him.

I'm a huge fan of the Starlin Warlock, but there are a few reasons why I'd be OK with this.

1. As has been proven once or twice, few other creators really get the Starlin Warlock. Other attempts generally disappoint.

2. Really, we're talking about the Lee-Kirby Him, which only showed up in a few panels of Fantastic Four and Thor 165-166. By the time Kane drew him -- the Marvel Premiere issues -- he wasn't that character anymore; he emerged from the cocoon to save the High Evolutionary and suddenly, he was the character we saw in Power of Warlock 1-8. But that wasn't the same character as in those Thor issues. So it could potentially be interesting: pretty undeveloped character there.

3. Nothing's being undone or ignored; it's just another step for the character (which happens to be into his own past).

4. This is the most important one: It's not a big deal what he is in Annihilation: Conquest #1, but what he ends up as after Annihilation: Conquest #6. Will he be the "Him" version, the Warlock we know best from Starlin's various runs, or something else entirely? (Hopefully not dead or anything.)

5. I guess in the worst case scenario, whatever they do is totally horrible and I can simply choose to ignore it, kind of like the Malibu stuff where he fought Rune and had braids.

Bob-el

11-02-2007, 09:29 PM

Good grief, you are a hard bunch to please!

I came out of reading Quasar#4 prepared to say they had finally opened up the fuel lines and kicked in the afterburners. Then I slogged through eight message board pages mostly of people moaning about a window of opportunity created for Wendall fans.

The art was tremendous. They lost a lot of that bland pastel quality that had plagued this series and Starlord. The action was dynamic and vibrant.

The battle with the Super Adaptoid was awesome. Phyla got to show that she does have the stuff that heroes are made of. We resolved the darkness corrupting theme before it could become tedious. We should now have set all her self-esteem issues to rest. She has faced her demons and conquered.

The strategy used against the Adaptoid was creative and brilliant.

And on top of all that, we get Adam Warlock back! I don't care that they telegraphed it a mile away. We've got Warlock back!

Okay, I am expecting a more Roy Thomas/Gil Kane version but I liked that guy too so I'm still happy. It would also be appropriate since Marvel has also telegraphed the involvement of the High Evolutionary in Conquest.

Ask anybody that knows me and you will quickly find out that Moondragon has long been one of my least favorite Marvel characters all the way back to her Avengers days. Her best days were with the New Defenders so I thought it was smart to mine that vein. Having her as a dragon gives her a physical presence and power that the anti-Phalanx forces can definitely use at the moment.

Step back, put your hand over the short Wendall scene and you should find an outstanding comic. I used to buy Quasar so I'd be more than happy to have him back but with this issue they established Phyla as a heroic leader not to be ignored.

Heck, I could even see us ending up with a new Infinity Watch when the smoke clears - Warlock, Moondragon, Phyla, Peter Quill, Rocket Raccoon and a sixth player to be named at a later time. Somebody suggested Ronan the Accuser taking up the Thanos role which I thought was a tremendous idea.

I can see some rationale for wanting Phyla to have a different name. I'd be perfectly okay with that but Marvel has to do something to keep the name in play (for legal reasons I imagine) and since they didn't seem to have the momentum to do anything with Wendall (remember how little excitement the Star Masters generated?) I can also understand them using the name to attract interest in a character they did have big plans for.

But seriously, put all that aside for a minute and this was an outstanding issue. I am officially revved up now for the conclusion of Starlord and the launch of the main event next week. Remember Annihilation didn't really hit its stride until the main event kicked in. Conquest may do the same.

Somebody

11-03-2007, 10:31 PM

Good grief, you are a hard bunch to please!
Uh...huh....
We resolved the darkness corrupting theme before it could become tedious.Abruptly. In a page and a half. When it never made sense to start with.

And on top of all that, we get Adam Warlock back! I don't care that they telegraphed it a mile away. We've got Warlock back
This is cause for celebration, how?

Brother Zag

11-03-2007, 10:52 PM

This is cause for celebration, how?

Well, you can celebrate in your own way, but here's how I celebrate the return of Adam Warlock: I whoop and holler and tell my non-comic book fan buddies, "they're bringing back Warlock!" and they humor me by nodding politely... I pull out old copies of the Warlock Chronicles and my collected reprint series from the early 80s. I know you were looking for how to celebrate, hope that helps.

XPac

11-03-2007, 11:41 PM

Lombardo!

11-04-2007, 02:12 AM

Magus will be the Big Bad

i'm loving Conquest so much. i was worried it'd be too alike Annihilation, but it's not. it's familiar, but fresh.

and if Professor X can get freaky with an Empress Bird-lady, Quasar and Moondragon can too

Rollo_Tomasi

11-04-2007, 10:50 AM

DaeJi

11-04-2007, 11:24 AM

Hmmm.. well, I'm certainly not going to read through 8 pages of what is most likely bitching. So I'll just give my unspoiled thoughts...

Art: Great, the best of all the issues. Very pleasing to the eyes. The overall mini: Great, had a great time and loved every issue. The voice: after the final Wraith issue it was clear as day who the voice was, so no surprize there. The Wendell: I honestly don't care about the character or his fans anymore. He gave her props, which was cool, kinda, and if any of his fans feel slighted by it... well, sucks to be you then. The savior: Adam was pretty much a given for me after the previews for Annihilation: Conquest #1 which had Quasar talking to him. She wouldn't talk that way to Genis, who was the most likely candidate after Adam.

I liked this issue, and I like this event so far. It's a much different tone and story than the first Annihilation, and I'm looking forward to seeing where it goes. Can't wait to see who makes it out of Starlord!

Hmm.. the newsarama article on Conquest was cool, and shed some light on Adam. As much a fan of the Starlin version of Adam as I am, I look forward to seeing a version more in line with the original design. And of course I look forward to the design they'll give him. This event is looking better and better. Now, if only Heather could get over the whole "dragon" thing...

XPac

11-04-2007, 11:42 AM

and if Professor X can get freaky with an Empress Bird-lady, Quasar and Moondragon can too

Personally I think Phyla getting down with a big lizard is a little TOO freaky for my tastes. But to each their own I guess.

DaeJi

11-04-2007, 11:46 AM

XPac

11-04-2007, 12:01 PM

Hmmm... actually going through and reading a few pages... I cannot believe that the biggest part of the issue for people was the Wendell scene (well, some people). I honestly don't get it. He's probably going to come back, probably as part of some other crossover or in a story in some other book. The fans did send Marvel a cake, and Marvel does pander to fans sometimes, no matter how small a group they may be (and trust me, the Wendell fanbase is not big). Still, the number of people who like Phyla and the numbers from her mini (the sales didn't seem to suffer at all despite the Wendell fan protest) should convince Marvel to at least keep her around, let her keep the Q-Bands.

And really, isn't Adam Warlock a bigger deal than either Quasar anyway? (here's a hint: he is).

It's the giant squid in the room that is best ignored mate.

My honest opinion... the reason a good percentage of the talk is focused on the Wendel scene isn't just that Wendel fans were bothered by it, but rather that many fans thought it was overall so-so, and didn't have much else to say about it.

The Adam Warlock "suprise" didn't exactly rock anyone's world since we all say that coming. The "big bad" suprise however, probably will so Conquests momentum should pick up quite a bit there.

I think the lead-in's did a pretty so-so job of hyping up the event. Which isn't to say the event itself will be bad... judging from the spoilers I've seen, my interest is definately peaked. But again, it had more to do with the main book itself rather than the lead ins. This time around, I think a lot of fans just felt they didn't deliver that much of a punch.

DaeJi

11-04-2007, 12:09 PM

I think the lead-in's did a pretty so-so job of hyping up the event. Which isn't to say the event itself will be bad... judging from the spoilers I've seen, my interest is definately peaked. But again, it had more to do with the main book itself rather than the lead ins. This time around, I think a lot of fans just felt they didn't deliver that much of a punch.

My take on it is that, quality-wise, the tie-in books were about as good as the tie-in minis for the first Annihilation. There's just less of an pressing threat since this is a resistance story, not a war story, and the minis focused on little known and one entirely new character. This time around it was the Annihilation brand that was carrying the event, not the characters so much (not to say that they haven't been awesome, just that they were not the draw this time).

Raker Q.

11-04-2007, 12:26 PM

The fans did send Marvel a cake, and Marvel does pander to fans sometimes, no matter how small a group they may be (and trust me, the Wendell fanbase is not big).
no I dont trust you...what are you basing the "small fanbase" from....maybe you didnt see CBR's top 100 but Wendell made #58 beating out many popular heroes and villains...I wouldnt call that small....I happen to like both Wendell and Phyla....I just hate when an opinion is thrown as a fact....it may be a small group that post passionatly about him on these boards but his ranking in the polls plus he series lasting 5 years would say otherwise than your opinion. Show me some facts.....otherwise... :rolleyes:

And really, isn't Adam Warlock a bigger deal than either Quasar anyway? (here's a hint: he is).

Hint:...no he isnt....a Protector of the Universe appointed by a cosmic entity is greater than anyone created by a group of scientists.

TheMadTitan

11-04-2007, 12:43 PM

Hint:...no he isnt....a Protector of the Universe appointed by a cosmic entity is greater than anyone created by a group of scientists.

Hasn't Warlock saved the Universe more times than Quasar? Also Warlock is kind of a bigger deal than Quasar anyhow - he was originally created by scientists yes but Wendell was originally created by 2 humans I would imagine!? Both characters have grown since their 'birth/creation' and I would say that since that time Warlock has proved himself as a bigger cosmic player than Quasar - peace.:)

Edit - I actually liked this mini mostly but it did kind of drag out the story a bit - and im not sure about the dragon lol apart from that it was cool - great to see Warlock!

DaeJi

11-04-2007, 12:57 PM

no I dont trust you...what are you basing the "small fanbase" from....maybe you didnt see CBR's top 100 but Wendell made #58 beating out many popular heroes and villains...I wouldnt call that small....I happen to like both Wendell and Phyla....I just hate when an opinion is thrown as a fact....it may be a small group that post passionatly about him on these boards but his ranking in the polls plus he series lasting 5 years would say otherwise than your opinion. Show me some facts.....otherwise... :rolleyes:

I don't count a sudden raise in popularity following a character's death to be a real measure of a character's fanbase. His fanbase is small, at least compared to a number of other characters. And stop taking things so personally, Phyla's fanbase is a lot smaller. Damn, only in comics..

Hint:...no he isnt....a Protector of the Universe appointed by a cosmic entity is greater than anyone created by a group of scientists.

Warlock exist outside all that and has saved the universe more times than Wendell. And I was talking about the character's importance to the overall Marvel character roster. Adam Warlock is a fairly popular and well known character, one that can actually make a difference in sales. Marvel could drop both Quasars and be done with it. In terms of importance (both in story and out), Adam Warlock > Phyla/Wendell.

Raker Q.

11-04-2007, 01:01 PM

Hasn't Warlock saved the Universe more times than Quasar? Also Warlock is kind of a bigger deal than Quasar anyhow - he was originally created by scientists yes but Wendell was originally created by 2 humans I would imagine!? Both characters have grown since their 'birth/creation' and I would say that since that time Warlock has proved himself as a bigger cosmic player than Quasar - peace.:)

Edit - I actually liked this mini mostly but it did kind of drag out the story a bit - and im not sure about the dragon lol apart from that it was cool - great to see Warlock!

ok...you read into that wrong...let me clarify...
a Protector of the Universe made by a cosmic entity is greater than anyone made by a group of scientists........thier birth is of no concern....who they were made to be is!.....is as for how many times Wendell has saved the universe....I take it you havent read his series........but for Warlock....I'll give him credit for Infinity Guantlet....that was an awesome series...one of the best that I have read but War and Crusade?....man I wish someone could have saved me from that garbage....ugh...but yeah....great to see him back! :)

DaeJi

11-04-2007, 01:08 PM

ok...you read into that wrong...let me clarify...
a Protector of the Universe made by a cosmic entity is greater than anyone made by a group of scientists........thier birth is of no concern....who they were made to be is!.....is as for how many times Wendell has saved the universe....I take it you havent read his series........but for Warlock....I'll give him credit for Infinity Guantlet....that was an awesome series...one of the best that I have read but War and Crusade?....man I wish someone could have saved me from that garbage....ugh...but yeah....great to see him back! :)

Adam Warlock became something more than he was, became something greater than Quasar is or was. At times he is overplayed, but Adam really is a vastly important character in the Marvel mythos. A big part of that too is that he's the only one, and if he's gone that's it. The Protector of the Universe is replaced once the current one dies.

Raker Q.

11-04-2007, 01:13 PM

I don't count a sudden raise in popularity following a character's death to be a real measure of a character's fanbase. His fanbase is small, at least compared to a number of other characters. And stop taking things so personally, Phyla's fanbase is a lot smaller. Damn, only in comics..

Warlock exist outside all that and has saved the universe more times than Wendell. And I was talking about the character's importance to the overall Marvel character roster. Adam Warlock is a fairly popular and well known character, one that can actually make a difference in sales. Marvel could drop both Quasars and be done with it. In terms of importance (both in story and out), Adam Warlock > Phyla/Wendell.
first off...I havent taken anything personally....not sure what you are reading into in my posts....and second I dont see any rise in popularity due to his death....thats just your perception........

and I disagree about the number of times in saving the universe......unless somone who has way more time on their hands to actually go back and count them all I would say its based on opnion....Wendell has 5 years of his own series plus many Marvel-Two-In-One appearences as well as guest spots in other titles not to mention his saves with the Avengers......My money is on Wendell........

and I would agree that Warlock is more popular but that doesnt mean he is greater.....he finished #38 with 186 points to Wendell's#58 with 120 points...thats not that big of a gap....just my opinon....dont take it personally ;)

and Phyla may have a small fanbase but it will grow....just give it time......Genis wasn't liked overnight..... :)

Raker Q.

11-04-2007, 01:16 PM

Adam Warlock became something more than he was, became something greater than Quasar is or was. At times he is overplayed, but Adam really is a vastly important character in the Marvel mythos. A big part of that too is that he's the only one, and if he's gone that's it. The Protector of the Universe is replaced once the current one dies.
...and thats why Wendell is so great....he has died a few times now and keeps coming back.....just like in Quasar#4....he is no longer dead.....which proves you cant keep a good man down :) .....I guess Infinity knew something when she appointed him as her avatar........what does Warlocks resume look like again? ;)

XPac

11-04-2007, 01:25 PM

TheMadTitan

11-04-2007, 01:36 PM

ok...you read into that wrong...let me clarify...
a Protector of the Universe made by a cosmic entity is greater than anyone made by a group of scientists........thier birth is of no concern....who they were made to be is!.....is as for how many times Wendell has saved the universe....I take it you havent read his series........but for Warlock....I'll give him credit for Infinity Guantlet....that was an awesome series...one of the best that I have read but War and Crusade?....man I wish someone could have saved me from that garbage....ugh...but yeah....great to see him back! :)

Ok I see your point, no I haven't read much of it, I was asking whether he has or not. I know Warlock has saved it a number of times I wasn't sure about Wendell. They are both great hero's.

Enigmanaut

11-04-2007, 01:37 PM

Wendell: I honestly don't care about the character or his fans anymore.

Did you ever? 'Cuz you certainly gave the impression of not giving a crap about the character or us in the always that preceded now. In fact, you outright went out of your way to goad, insult and antagonize us. Does that mean you'll be stopping?

The fans did send Marvel a cake, and Marvel does pander to fans sometimes, no matter how small a group they may be (and trust me, the Wendell fanbase is not big).

Yeah, well I think when the time comes that Phyla is de-banded or killed, you'll be sending a cake more or less by yourself.

DaeJi

11-04-2007, 01:58 PM

Did you ever? 'Cuz you certainly gave the impression of not giving a crap about the character or us in the always that preceded now. In fact, you outright went out of your way to goad, insult and antagonize us. Does that mean you'll be stopping?

Yeah, I needed to blow off some steam, and it was too easy. Bad week. Anyway, before right now Wendell fans always had my sort of sympathy. Not that I agreed with them or wished them success, but I saw where they were coming from and didn't hate them. Now, however, after the reaction to this issue... now, they need to take the words "shut" and "up" to heart.

XPac

11-04-2007, 02:02 PM

Yeah, I needed to blow off some steam, and it was too easy. Bad week. Anyway, before right now Wendell fans always had my sort of sympathy. Not that I agreed with them or wished them success, but I saw where they were coming from and didn't hate them. Now, however, after the reaction to this issue... now, they need to take the words "shut" and "up" to heart.

Telling other posters to shut up on a posting board really isn't cool.

If you don't like what someone has to say, you're always free to simply ignore them.

DaeJi

11-04-2007, 02:05 PM

Telling other posters to shut up on a posting board really isn't cool.

If you don't like what someone has to say, you're always free to simply ignore them.

I'm also free to respond. Anyway, the fact that Wendell's fans are upset over him appearing in the issue is mind-killing.

XPac

11-04-2007, 02:12 PM

I'm also free to respond. Anyway, the fact that Wendell's fans are upset over him appearing in the issue is mind-killing.

You're free to respond to other people. But I'd argue using that freedom to tell people to shut up is somewhat of a misuse of that freedom.

You dangle a fine line by switching the topic of coversation from the characters and stories to other posters. I won't go around playing moderator... but I would argue that telling people not to take things personally one second, and telling them to shut up the next, is asking a lot of your fellow posters.

DaeJi

11-04-2007, 02:13 PM

Ah, screw it all. It's old, and both sides of this war (it's a war now) have been bogged down with stupid. I'm sorry I ever got into it... hmmm... it really doesn't matter at all. Really. Wendell's dead and some people don't like it, and Phyla is Quasar is gaining fans. In time she may become a better, more popular hero (and to Enigmanaut, cute cake comment), and Wendell may come back.

Heh, wow, that's freeing.

And yes, I'm really done with the whole debate. As far as I'm concerned, Wendell doesn't even factor. And XPac is right, there's no use getting emotional invested in this.

It was a fun issue.

DaeJi

11-04-2007, 02:31 PM

Mysterio's Helmet

11-04-2007, 02:41 PM

Cosmic Rankings- mileage may vary:

1. Silver Surfer
2. Thanos
3. Galactus
4. Nova (after recent efforts)
5. Everybody else shuffling along....

Marvel's trying the field. What's going to work and who isn't? This is an experiment and it's about time they tested these waters. I'm happy for it. Seeing Wendell reappear is an affirmation for us Wendell fans.

DaeJi

11-04-2007, 02:45 PM

Cosmic Rankings- mileage may vary:

1. Silver Surfer
2. Thanos
3. Galactus
4. Nova (after recent efforts)
5. Everybody else shuffling along....

I agree on the first four, but would add:

6. Super-Skrull
7. Captain Marvel
8. Gladiator
9. Adam Warlock
10. Beta Ray Bill

After that it gets to be pretty even. And I like that they are taking more chances with the characters; one of the biggest pulls for Annihilation and Conquest for me is that they will take risks with the characters, make changes to them and such.

Raker Q.

11-04-2007, 02:55 PM

Honestly, I think your "sucks to be you line" was pretty much an open invitation for people to take your statements personally.

But that aside, in regards to Wendel's popularity the truth is he, like pretty much all cosmic characters except the Silver Surfer, is really more of a fringe character outside of the mainstream.

His fanbase isn't huge compared to the mainstream cashcows... though I'd argue it's certainly proved itself at least in comparison to some of his peers in regards to how dedicated the fanbase is. So I don't think his death raised his popularity (really, the ridiculously pointless way he died couldn't have won him too many fans).

great post Xpac...couldnt agree more

Ok I see your point, no I haven't read much of it, I was asking whether he has or not. I know Warlock has saved it a number of times I wasn't sure about Wendell. They are both great hero's.

yeah...it would be great to actually total up the saves someday...it would be close....and your right...they are both great heroes....one things for sure....its great to be a cosmic fan right now. :)

Raker Q.

11-04-2007, 02:58 PM

I'm also free to respond. Anyway, the fact that Wendell's fans are upset over him appearing in the issue is mind-killing.
...again....you lump all Wendell fans in the same category....I for one liked the issue and I loved his appearence in it as well....I'm happy just to see him.....if others are upset......well that is their right.....I may not agree but they are entitled to feel how they feel.

DaeJi

11-04-2007, 03:03 PM

...again....you lump all Wendell fans in the same category....I for one liked the issue and I loved his appearence in it as well....I'm happy just to see him.....if others are upset......well that is their right.....I may not agree but they are entitled to feel how they feel.

I'm backing the Hell away from anymore Wendell vs. Phyla debates, It's not worth it.

Anyway, the Wendell cameo was a nice touch, and to me at least very in character for him. He is the "nicest guy ever" character, and he's going to try and build Phyla up.

Raker Q.

11-04-2007, 03:12 PM

Ah, screw it all. It's old, and both sides of this war (it's a war now) have been bogged down with stupid.
Its only a war if you allow it to be a war....I see it as people talking about something I love in comics.....and thats cosmic stories....whether its Wendell, Phyla, Mar-Vell,Warlock, Thanos, etc......its just great to be talking about it.....I come here for the diversity and difference of opinions.....its great to see how other cosmic fans think.....but thats just me....its only personal if you let it get personal....or if you tell people to shut up. :p

I'm sorry I ever got into it... hmmm... it really doesn't matter at all. Really. Wendell's dead and some people don't like it, ...and Wendell may come back.
Wendell already came back.....he returned in Quasar#4.....you should read it, its a good issue. :)

and Phyla is Quasar is gaining fans. In time she may become a better, more popular hero (and to Enigmanaut, cute cake comment),

...and Phyla gaining popularity is a good thing....its good to see a strong female cosmic heroine.....I hope she does her daddy proud...I still miss her brother. :(

Raker Q.

11-04-2007, 03:15 PM

Speaking of the issue, are we going to find out what Adam Warlock has been up since whenever his last in canon appearance was? Because there are sooooo many unanswered questions about him, revolving around the Soul Gem, Gamora, the strange ship, the connection to the Phalanx, etc. I know Quasar and Starlord are supposed to be the stars of the show, but with Adam on board and with so many mysteries surrounding him I don't see how he won't take up a good sized piece of the event.
It would be nice if they did answer these questions....but they seem to ignore what came before.....like before Annihilation....Wendell had the Ego entity inside him when we last saw him.....yet he showed up with a different look and no Ego.......no explanation.........but then again there are more Warlock fans so maybe Marvel will fillus in on what happened or fans may get restless.....I for one hope so.

Raker Q.

11-04-2007, 03:18 PM

I'm backing the Hell away from anymore Wendell vs. Phyla debates, It's not worth it.

Anyway, the Wendell cameo was a nice touch, and to me at least very in character for him. He is the "nicest guy ever" character, and he's going to try and build Phyla up.

I agree....I liked it....I thought it set up Wendell to be used again in the future and it made Phyla a viable cosmic hero in the MU.....a win/win for me....but I think I'm in the minority on this one.

Will.S

11-04-2007, 03:50 PM

It would be nice if they did answer these questions....but they seem to ignore what came before.....like before Annihilation....Wendell had the Ego entity inside him when we last saw him.....yet he showed up with a different look and no Ego.......no explanation........
I believe he got rid of it somehow although it wasn't actually shown.

What's interesting is that we have a Quasar, Captain Marvel, and Adam Warlock at the same time and I have a good feeling that Captain Marvel is going to pass down the torch to Noh-Varr which will be another legacy thing. Adam is young again and fresh to be explored so that's another interesting thing in that all these protectors will be younger than they were.

drwho

11-04-2007, 05:28 PM

XPac

11-04-2007, 05:40 PM

I think there was some odd one panel explanation in Quasar's appearance in Fantastic Four when Waid was writing that explained what happened to ego. I do find it slightly annoying that Quasar always has to sacrifice himself in order to keep evil under control. Oh i'll be back but i have ego in me so i have to go to limbo, or I have to fight he evil corruption so I will be busy in limbo. :rolleyes:

Out of curiosity what was the explanation, because I thought they brushed that one under the carpet. Maximum Security was a whole Marvel Event, yet it didn't seem like they bothered giving it 2 seconds of after thought.

firstnovaprime

11-04-2007, 06:03 PM

Haven't got my issue yet, to read, but from what I'm hearing about the
issue, Wendell's appearance is to turn over the mantle to Phyla even though
she got the bands from the bugman. His fans don't want that to happen, and
if I was his fan I wouldn't like either. So no one should be amazed at their
reaction.

wallred

11-04-2007, 06:12 PM

I agree....I liked it....I thought it set up Wendell to be used again in the future and it made Phyla a viable cosmic hero in the MU.....a win/win for me....but I think I'm in the minority on this one.

I'm with you on this Raker...I thought having Wendell appear was a good thing. My problems with this series have nothing to do it.
Having read the entire series now, I have to say that I'm overall disappointed in the execution. Christos typically knows what he's doing, but the pacing of this series was just...off. It's not that it was an especially plot heavy series since it was using a simple quest framework. I really think that some elements needed to be condensed in the first 3 issues to let 4 breathe a little more. The sudden resolution to the taint of Annihilus with Wendell's appearance just felt rushed and kind of shoe-horned in. Also, I don't think Wendell would tell her she'd be a great Quasar...I think he'd tell her she'd be a great hero and not address her by the name he'd given himself.
As much as I like the Mike Lily's art, I think that the layouts weren't always as clear as they should be.
Not horrible, but not great...the reveal of Warlock as the savior probably didn't help, as I'm tired of Starlin's Mary Sue characters now having to constantly be involved in anything cosmic.
I have high hopes for DnA on Conquest

Mysterio's Helmet

11-04-2007, 06:19 PM

He is the "nicest guy ever" character

See, I think this is a bad thing. You can be a "really nice guy" instead of the "nicest guy ever". Considerate and functional in a non-goofy way. Wendell isn't someone who should just go out of his way for everything. To be honest, I'm tired of his self-sacrificing ways. You don't have to just "take it" every single time a situation arises and say "aw shucks". You can be reasonable in expectations with him. DnA's take was superb. Really, that is the way I want him written and would write him. There should be no self-doubt. Hell, he's unstoppable. He's already back from his last stint with death. He's the "avatar of Infinity" for Krispie's sake.

You can be a really nice guy and kick some ass. Authoritative but yielding.

I think it's time Wendell grew up a bit, emotionally. And I think it's time a writer picked up where DnA left off. Man , did they drop the ball when they killed him off in Annihilation: Nova. What a great pick-up only to kill him 2 issues later. Ugh.

DaeJi

11-04-2007, 06:21 PM

Having read the entire series now, I have to say that I'm overall disappointed in the execution. Christos typically knows what he's doing, but the pacing of this series was just...off. It's not that it was an especially plot heavy series since it was using a simple quest framework. I really think that some elements needed to be condensed in the first 3 issues to let 4 breathe a little more. The sudden resolution to the taint of Annihilus with Wendell's appearance just felt rushed and kind of shoe-horned in.

I think a lot of this had to do with the fact that the mini was fairly editorial heavy. Still, the pace was good, except for the second issue (where they had to explain the dragon thing away) and the Wendell thing (which I think Marvel threw into there for the fans).

DaeJi

11-04-2007, 06:23 PM

See, I think this is a bad thing. You can be a "really nice guy" instead of the "nicest guy ever". Considerate and functional in a non-goofy way. Wendell isn't someone who should just go out of his way for everything. To be honest, I'm tired of his self-sacrificing ways. You don't have to just "take it" every single time a situation and say "aw shucks". You can be reasonable in expectations with him. DnA's take was superb. Really, that is the way I want him written and would write him. There should be no self-doubt. Hell, he's unstoppable. He's already back from his last stint with death. He's the "avatar of Infinity" for Krispie's sake.

You can be a really nice guy and kick some ass. Authoritative but yielding.

I think it's time Wendell grew up a bit, emotionally. And I think it's time a writer picked up where DnA left off. Man , did they drop the ball when they killed him off in Annihilation: Nova. What a great pick-up only to kill him 2 issues later. Ugh.

But he's dead. What should he have said to her? "Go $#%@ yourself for trying to honor my memory you !@#$ing #$*&^!!!"?

drwho

11-04-2007, 06:29 PM

But he's dead. What should he have said to her? "Go $#%@ yourself for trying to honor my memory you !@#$ing #$*&^!!!"?

I would have rather had the scene without the whole you can do it. you can do it vibe i got from it. They could have just had wendell say he is fighting the corruption and not even go into the name thing. It is annoying in my opinion the way it was done.

DaeJi

11-04-2007, 06:31 PM

I would have rather had the scene without the whole you can do it. you can do it vibe i got from it. They could have just had wendell say he is fighting the corruption and not even go into the name thing. It is annoying in my opinion the way it was done.

Yeah, it was pretty shoe-horned in for what it was. I think it's like that because it was an editorial thing, not Gage's own idea.

XPac

11-04-2007, 06:33 PM

I'm with you on this Raker...I thought having Wendell appear was a good thing. My problems with this series have nothing to do it.
Having read the entire series now, I have to say that I'm overall disappointed in the execution. Christos typically knows what he's doing, but the pacing of this series was just...off. It's not that it was an especially plot heavy series since it was using a simple quest framework. I really think that some elements needed to be condensed in the first 3 issues to let 4 breathe a little more. The sudden resolution to the taint of Annihilus with Wendell's appearance just felt rushed and kind of shoe-horned in. Also, I don't think Wendell would tell her she'd be a great Quasar...I think he'd tell her she'd be a great hero and not address her by the name he'd given himself.
As much as I like the Mike Lily's art, I think that the layouts weren't always as clear as they should be.
Not horrible, but not great...the reveal of Warlock as the savior probably didn't help, as I'm tired of Starlin's Mary Sue characters now having to constantly be involved in anything cosmic.
I have high hopes for DnA on Conquest

Yeah, it was weird. We had 3 issues of decompression followed by one issue of compression. A lot of early exposition leading to a very throw out resolution. The pacing really hurt the flow of what should have been a relatively simple story in my opinion.

Mysterio's Helmet

11-04-2007, 06:33 PM

But he's dead. What should he have said to her? "Go $#%@ yourself for trying to honor my memory you !@#$ing #$*&^!!!"?

Not at all. In fact, I had no direct comment about that. I respect Christos' writing skillz to pay the billz. I stand by my previous comment that what Wendell said was still spot on. And I'll also agree with the extra sentiment.....not my favorite but still within his character, nonetheless.

Bob-el

11-04-2007, 06:50 PM

We have to remember that comics are a subjective medium. What's outstanding to one person may be so-so to another.

Wendel issues aside, I thought this was an alright book. Not as good as Starlord, but better than Wraith. If you thought it was outstanding, that's cool. But don't assume some people didn't enjoy it as much as you did simply because of the Wendel scene.

But I do share your hope that Conquest will hit it's stride as the main book begins.

Not just comics. Lots of things that one person does or doesn't like are subjective. The Romans even had a saying to that effect. "About taste there can be no arguing". One person says okra is delightful, somebody else says it's disgusting. Neither is right, it is a matter of taste.

So that's a given. Still, I try to call them as I see them. I saw a whole string of dismissive comments that I thought were unsupported and undeserved. So I put my two cents in to balance the scales. I also thought there was too much obsessing over some elements of the story without giving credit for the quality of others and how the issue fulfilled a series of themes and threads running through the series - the difference between being human and being Phalanx, Phyla's self doubt and others.

So if people didn't find this issue outstanding (to pick a random adjective) I tend to wonder why and challenge them to clarify. If it is a purely subjective thing, so be it. I have that reaction sometimes myself to something that seems well-crafted but just doesn't appeal to my taste. Still, if we take that as the beginning and end of the discussion, it doesn't give us much to talk about, does it?

Bob-el

11-04-2007, 07:18 PM

...and thats why Wendell is so great....he has died a few times now and keeps coming back.....just like in Quasar#4....he is no longer dead.....which proves you cant keep a good man down :) .....I guess Infinity knew something when she appointed him as her avatar........what does Warlocks resume look like again? ;)

Do we really need to play a round of "my hero is better than ours".

Warlock's resume includes:
Created as Him by Lee and Kirby.
Battled Thor over the love of Sif when he was still immature.
Savior of Counter-Earth (reimagined by Thomas and Kane). Dies and is resurrected and then devolves the Man-Beast (a stand-in for all that was evil about Counter-Earth)
Reimagined by Jim Starlin. Dies in the Strange Death of Adam Warlock to wipe out the time line that would have led to him travelling to the past to become the evil Magus -founder of an evil intergalactic religion.
Is reincarnated from his time of peace inside his own Soul Gem to defeat Thanos after the mad Titan had defeated a full slate of Avengers and Captain Marvel (Protector of the Universe at the time).
and well, all of that is before we ever get to the Infinity Gauntlet (once again keeping Thanos from acts of universal homocide), War and Crusade periods (all springing off of concepts developed from Starlin's run with the character) as well as his founding of the Infinity Watch- guardians of gems commanding the fundamental forces/concepts of the universe. There is at least one more death and reincarnation in there with Gamora and Pip. Wendell's got nothing on Adam when it comes to dying and resurrection.

Adam Warlock was the star of at least four ongoing series (two running simulateously- something typically only possible for characters at the level of Spider-Man or the X-Men) and as a character goes back to the Lee and Kirby days of the FF. Quasar's history is shorter and if memory serves me correctly had one reasonably successful ongoing, a run as a member of the Avengers, a short poorly received membership in a limited series call Star Masters and of course a key role in Annihilation. As Protector of the Universe, he falls between Mar-Vell and Gravity.

Quasar is a fine character and I don't want to take anything away from him but if you think he easily outshines or outclasses Warlock either within the Marvel universe or viewed from a fan popularity perspective outside of it, it would be my opinion that you are kidding yourself.

Raker Q.

11-04-2007, 07:49 PM

Do we really need to play a round of "my hero is better than ours".
...and yet you miss the winking smiley face showing I wasnt serious. :rolleyes: or the post that said I love both characters....I was more or less playing devils advocate to someone who posted they thought Warlock was greater than Wendell.....which is just an opinion.....mine is the reverse so I stated it........neither is right or wrong.....its a matter of perception....if you think Warlock is greater....good for you....here have a cookie.....I think Wendell is greater.....yeah for me *eats a cookie*........relax dude....sit back....take a deap breath......inhale......exhale.....there you go....you'll be all right..... ;) (<----by the way....thats a smiley...enjoy the joke)

Warlock's resume includes:
Created as Him by Lee and Kirby.
Battled Thor over the love of Sif when he was still immature.
Savior of Counter-Earth (reimagined by Thomas and Kane). Dies and is resurrected and then devolves the Man-Beast (a stand-in for all that was evil about Counter-Earth)
Reimagined by Jim Starlin. Dies in the Strange Death of Adam Warlock to wipe out the time line that would have led to him travelling to the past to become the evil Magus -founder of an evil intergalactic religion.
Is reincarnated from his time of peace inside his own Soul Gem to defeat Thanos after the mad Titan had defeated a full slate of Avengers and Captain Marvel (Protector of the Universe at the time).
and well, all of that is before we ever get to the Infinity Gauntlet (once again keeping Thanos from acts of universal homocide), War and Crusade periods (all springing off of concepts developed from Starlin's run with the character) as well as his founding of the Infinity Watch- guardians of gems commanding the fundamental forces/concepts of the universe. There is at least one more death and reincarnation in there with Gamora and Pip. Wendell's got nothing on Adam when it comes to dying and resurrection.

Adam Warlock was the star of at least four ongoing series (two running simulateously- something typically only possible for characters at the level of Spider-Man or the X-Men) and as a character goes back to the Lee and Kirby days of the FF. Quasar's history is shorter and if memory serves me correctly had one reasonably successful ongoing, a run as a member of the Avengers, a short poorly received membership in a limited series call Star Masters and of course a key role in Annihilation. As Protector of the Universe, he falls between Mar-Vell and Gravity.

Quasar is a fine character and I don't want to take anything away from him but if you think he easily outshines or outclasses Warlock either within the Marvel universe or viewed from a fan popularity perspective outside of it, it would be my opinion that you are kidding yourself.

oooooh love the recap....I have those issues....huge fan of Starlin myself....*looks at avatar*.......but being appointed a protector by one entity and an avatar by another still trumps Warlock and his green dot. ;)

...and I would say that Quasar has appeared in just as many if not more comics than Warlock....not that it would prove anything so I dont know why you would make that an issue....and as for death and coming back....well it must be easy for someone that isnt human or even soulless to do something like that but to be human to come back is quite a feat......and yes it is my opinon that Wendell outclasses him and no I dont kid myself.....its called being entitled to my own opinion......or would you rather everybody agree with the poster Bob-el and if they dont then they are wrong type of mentality........if you base popularity as the sole reason for importance then Spiderman is greater than any other Marvel hero ....ever....and that doesnt work for me......bottom line...give me my hero.....you can have yours......and keep up with the breathing in or out....it will help you relax a bit. ;)

stingerman

11-04-2007, 07:56 PM

Yeah, it was pretty shoe-horned in for what it was. I think it's like that because it was an editorial thing, not Gage's own idea.

Ahhh, there you are. Glad to have you back, bwahahaha! :evilsmile

No, I agree. I think Marvel thought it would make Wendell fans happy by throwing that in. Don't get me wrong, I am happy but only a little bit. The way I look at it is we are half way there.

XPac

11-04-2007, 08:12 PM

So if people didn't find this issue outstanding (to pick a random adjective) I tend to wonder why and challenge them to clarify. If it is a purely subjective thing, so be it. I have that reaction sometimes myself to something that seems well-crafted but just doesn't appeal to my taste. Still, if we take that as the beginning and end of the discussion, it doesn't give us much to talk about, does it?

I think people have clarrified their thoughts on the series. If you don't agree with those views that's fine... but to argue that no one has done it is a bit off.

I felt the storytelling was uneven and the pacing kinda bad to be blunt about it. The story suprise was pretty weak, the conclusion to the bands corruption felt rushed after several issues of decompression, and the overall structure of the story kinda fell apart.

If you completely omit Wendel from this thread, the most common statement you'll find here was that it was better than Wraith. As far as a general consensus goes, that's the strongest statement people have made about it. So for a lot of people, the creative team didn't exactly knock it out of the ballpark with this one.

XPac

11-04-2007, 08:15 PM

Ahhh, there you are. Glad to have you back, bwahahaha! :evilsmile

No, I agree. I think Marvel thought it would make Wendell fans happy by throwing that in. Don't get me wrong, I am happy but only a little bit. The way I look at it is we are half way there.

I'm not convinced that appeasing Wendel fans was a particularly high priority here (nor did it need to be to be honest) ... but if it was, I'm not convinced the creative team suceeded in that.

Lombardo!

11-05-2007, 06:34 AM

The big bad was already revealed...and it isn't Magus.

if you're referring to The Phalanx, no it hasn't been revealed.
it's been quoted over and over that there will be a Big Bad behind it all revealed on the final page of Conquest #1

The Deadpool

11-05-2007, 06:59 AM

He may be the only person on the net to not have read the spoilers...

Well, I ain't telling him!

DaeJi

11-05-2007, 07:13 AM

He may be the only person on the net to not have read the spoilers...

Well, I ain't telling him!

I haven't read them either. I have that thing that some people have, what do you call it.... integrity.

Enigmanaut

11-05-2007, 10:41 AM

He may be the only person on the net to not have read the spoilers...

Well, I ain't telling him!

I aint telling who it is, either... but it sure as hell aint the even lamer "evil" version of Warlock. Dark Warlock with a hair bun aint the guy.

Enigmanaut

11-05-2007, 10:42 AM

I haven't read them either. I have that thing that some people have, what do you call it.... integrity.

That must be some strange definition of integrity that I had been previously unaware of.

stingerman

11-05-2007, 03:04 PM

I haven't read them either. I have that thing that some people have, what do you call it.... integrity.

I havent either. This time I am waiting!

stingerman

11-05-2007, 03:07 PM

I'm not convinced that appeasing Wendel fans was a particularly high priority here (nor did it need to be to be honest) ... but if it was, I'm not convinced the creative team suceeded in that.

Yes, that's my point. If it wasn't thrown in there to make Wendell fans happy, why have it at all? And if it was, then it kinda makes me think Marvel is not really in touch with their audience. What are you going to do though....;)

Will.S

11-05-2007, 03:22 PM

Yes, that's my point. If it wasn't thrown in there to make Wendell fans happy, why have it at all? And if it was, then it kinda makes me think Marvel is not really in touch with their audience. What are you going to do though....;)
While I didn't really particularly enjoy the art in that part, I liked that at least we have a heads up on what's going on with Wendell's essence inside the bands and there's a classic good vs evil thing there that reminded me a lot of the What If? where Wendell merges with the Uni-power and fights Set for all eternity within the Eye of Agamotto.

Not saying I want that type of outcome but I think there's more of enough of an opening to bring him back through Epoch or Eon who if I understand correctly is in another dimension of sorts.

stingerman

11-05-2007, 03:26 PM

While I didn't really particularly enjoy the art in that part, I liked that at least we have a heads up on what's going on with Wendell's essence inside the bands and there's a classic good vs evil thing there that reminded me a lot of the What If? where Wendell merges with the Uni-power and fights Set for all eternity within the Eye of Agamotto.

Not saying I want that type of outcome but I think there's more of enough of an opening to bring him back through Epoch or Eon who if I understand correctly is in another dimension of sorts.

Yeah I was confused with the art in that part. It took place inside the bands though.

I guess I was just hoping for a little more than what they gave us. I wanted Wendell's return to be something more.

Will.S

11-05-2007, 03:34 PM

Yeah I was confused with the art in that part. It took place inside the bands though.

I guess I was just hoping for a little more than what they gave us. I wanted Wendell's return to be something more.
Well think it less as a return and more of an acknowledgment that he's still around.

Any writer can be like "Oh, Phyla's bands are really birthed a.k.a copied from the actual ones which are still in the Cosmic Control Rod". So now we have two protectors around or have Phyla's bands re-integrated into Wendell's and she gets her Nega Bands back. For me that would be a more than adequate way to appease fans of both.

Lombardo!

11-06-2007, 08:58 AM

He may be the only person on the net to not have read the spoilers...

Well, I ain't telling him!

man i steer clear of anything with a SPOILER tag like it was the plague

besides, i was just spitballin' when i was guessing the Magus

whatever the case, only a few days to go

i just hope sales are high enough to convince Marvel to publish another act next year

BooCoo

11-06-2007, 10:48 AM

I agree....I liked it....I thought it set up Wendell to be used again in the future and it made Phyla a viable cosmic hero in the MU.....a win/win for me....but I think I'm in the minority on this one.

I pretty much said the same thing...but got drowned out in noise awhile back.

None of the Marvel Cosmic characters ever had the following of the mainline or 'earth grounded' heroes, because there were less interpersonal storylines. Mostly they got to shine during major crossover or 'crisis' type events. The one exception might be Silver Surfer.

I don't know who all these 'Wendell fans' that supposedly are the same are. I've pretty much said where I stand on the whole Wendell Phyla thing, because both characters are usable. As far as popularity goes, when a character is killed off obviously popularity goes/disappears, because fans develop interest in other characters. What other choice do you have? If your favorite is bumped off, there's nothing to follow or read other than back issues. If they return, you get the usual wave of enthusiasm. So the 'Hal vs Kyle' type warfare is pretty funny to me.

**** it...let Phyla, Wendell and Heather have a three-way.

BooCoo

11-06-2007, 10:52 AM

I aint telling who it is, either... but it sure as hell aint the even lamer "evil" version of Warlock. Dark Warlock with a hair bun aint the guy.

LOL, that WAS a dopey look, I agree! :rolleyes:

DaeJi

11-06-2007, 10:57 AM

That must be some strange definition of integrity that I had been previously unaware of.

It means sticking to a code of morals or honor or behavior. A lot of people worked hard on that surprise, and I'm not going to peek in on their hard work just so I get to read the issue and go "Ha, knew it all along!" Not that I'm saying that that's why people look at early spoilers (although I wouldn't put it past some people), but there you go.

DaeJi

11-06-2007, 11:03 AM

None of the Marvel Cosmic characters ever had the following of the mainline or 'earth grounded' heroes, because there were less interpersonal storylines. Mostly they got to shine during major crossover or 'crisis' type events. The one exception might be Silver Surfer.

That's why I like the sweeping changes in the post-Annihilation cosmic-scape. The heroes are more relatable, the villains scarier, and everyone and everything is going through a change. Nothing is the same anymore, and I personally like that. Almost no character in this new universe is what they were before. Personally, if/when Wendell comes back I hope he's different, hope he gets the same treatment as everyone else has gotten.

XPac

11-06-2007, 04:31 PM

That's why I like the sweeping changes in the post-Annihilation cosmic-scape. The heroes are more relatable, the villains scarier, and everyone and everything is going through a change. Nothing is the same anymore, and I personally like that. Almost no character in this new universe is what they were before. Personally, if/when Wendell comes back I hope he's different, hope he gets the same treatment as everyone else has gotten.

I only buy changes if writers bother explaining them. The fact that a lot of changes have occured with characters without any real explanation or justification in the books themselves is actually a writing weakness in a lot of the Annihilation stuff in my opinion.

Bob-el

11-10-2007, 05:38 PM

I think people have clarrified their thoughts on the series. If you don't agree with those views that's fine... but to argue that no one has done it is a bit off.

I felt the storytelling was uneven and the pacing kinda bad to be blunt about it. The story suprise was pretty weak, the conclusion to the bands corruption felt rushed after several issues of decompression, and the overall structure of the story kinda fell apart.

If you completely omit Wendel from this thread, the most common statement you'll find here was that it was better than Wraith. As far as a general consensus goes, that's the strongest statement people have made about it. So for a lot of people, the creative team didn't exactly knock it out of the ballpark with this one.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion but I think you may be missing the point.

My contention is that the Wendell Vaughn/bands corruption stuff was a very small part of the issue but seemed to be the overwhelming focus of people that didn't enjoy the issue.

If you found the ending to be not surprising or were hoping for another character, I can see that it would taint your enjoyment.

I would differ with you on the pacing and that the structure fell apart. I thought the battle with the Super-Adaptoid was carried out in a clever progression of stages and that how it relates to Phyla's development of her own perception of her role as Quasar worked well in contrast to how she has felt inadequate from the beginning of issue 1.

That's really my point and I think it is still largely unanswered. The core of issue 4 is the battle with the Super Adaptoid and Phyla's triumph. I would have thought people would be really pleased with that and am surprised that a lot of people treated as kind of a yawn or didn't address it at all.

In the words of Forrest Gump, that's all I have to say about that.

DaeJi

11-10-2007, 06:00 PM

I loved the battle, loved how she managed to defeat him, loved that she's becoming a more confindent hero (if only at the moment). Honestly Mike Lilly's art just glows when it comes to action scenes, and not only was the fight the coolest part in the book, it had the best art in the book.

XPac

11-10-2007, 06:00 PM

You're certainly entitled to your opinion but I think you may be missing the point.

My contention is that the Wendell Vaughn/bands corruption stuff was a very small part of the issue but seemed to be the overwhelming focus of people that didn't enjoy the issue.

If you found the ending to be not surprising or were hoping for another character, I can see that it would taint your enjoyment.

I would differ with you on the pacing and that the structure fell apart. I thought the battle with the Super-Adaptoid was carried out in a clever progression of stages and that how it relates to Phyla's development of her own perception of her role as Quasar worked well in contrast to how she has felt inadequate from the beginning of issue 1.

That's really my point and I think it is still largely unanswered. The core of issue 4 is the battle with the Super Adaptoid and Phyla's triumph. I would have thought people would be really pleased with that and am surprised that a lot of people treated as kind of a yawn or didn't address it at all.

In the words of Forrest Gump, that's all I have to say about that.

I think a large portion of the conversation being centered around Wendel stems from the fact that a lot of people felt the story was kinda so-so and had nothing to talk about.

The only ones with a real emotional investment were the Wendel fans discussing their characters role. Again, if you liked it... fine. But don't presume to say why others didn't. Many have given their reasons and if you don't agree, that's fine too. But to say they haven't given their opinion is simply wrong.

Bob-el

11-10-2007, 06:01 PM

oooooh love the recap....I have those issues....huge fan of Starlin myself....*looks at avatar*.......but being appointed a protector by one entity and an avatar by another still trumps Warlock and his green dot. ;)

...and I would say that Quasar has appeared in just as many if not more comics than Warlock....not that it would prove anything so I dont know why you would make that an issue....and as for death and coming back....well it must be easy for someone that isnt human or even soulless to do something like that but to be human to come back is quite a feat......and yes it is my opinon that Wendell outclasses him and no I dont kid myself.....its called being entitled to my own opinion......or would you rather everybody agree with the poster Bob-el and if they dont then they are wrong type of mentality........if you base popularity as the sole reason for importance then Spiderman is greater than any other Marvel hero ....ever....and that doesnt work for me......bottom line...give me my hero.....you can have yours......and keep up with the breathing in or out....it will help you relax a bit. ;)

No, I want them both. You can't have him all to yourself.

Okay, that's me joking. Nothing wrong with my breathing. No hyperventilating anywhere in sight.

So let's have a short conversation on the subject of what makes one character greater than another, all joking aside. It is one thing to say that you like Quasar better than Warlock or vice versa. That is personal opinion and you are certainly entitled to it. You took it one step farther to say that one is greater than the other and that's a claim that needs a basis other than personal opinion (in my opinion).

So what are we to basis it on? Not popularity, you've dismissed that as a standard. Not longevity of role within the MU, you've thrown that out too. Initially, I thought you thought it had something to do with his coming back from the dead but since you have Starlin's Warlock series (if I understood you correctly) that ain't it either.

The base of your argument seems to boil down to Quasar having been appointed Protector of the Universe. Now I've never quite been sure who gave Eon the authority to do that and tend to believe he appointed himself to do the appointing so maybe the title isn't quite as big a deal as you think. But by the same logic, a) Quasar was second choice since Eon selected Mar-Vell first and b) that would make Gravity a greater character than Warlock too. Maybe you believe that last contention too but I don't think you will find too many folks willing to agree with it.

So you like Quasar, I like Quasar. You like Warlock, I like Warlock. You like Quasar better than Warlock. Have a cookie on me. I do like Warlock better. I think I'll have some ice cream. But Quasar greater than Warlock even though he hasn't been around as long, isn't as popular and hasn't been as central to several big events in the MU is still hard to swallow even if I wash down that cookie you offered with a large glass of milk. :D

stingerman

11-10-2007, 10:45 PM

Now I've never quite been sure who gave Eon the authority to do that and tend to believe he appointed himself to do the appointing so maybe the title isn't quite as big a deal as you think.

I would think it would have been Infinity that gave Eon the job...I'd have to check though...or maybe Eternity as Eon is the "offspring of Etenity".

stingerman

11-10-2007, 11:04 PM

Eon's Creds (from Quasar #2):

http://www.bringbackwendell.com/eon1.png
http://www.bringbackwendell.com/eon2.png
http://www.bringbackwendell.com/eon3.png

stingerman

11-10-2007, 11:09 PM

a) Quasar was second choice since Eon selected Mar-Vell first and

I think it would be better to say Quasar was the *next* choice as there were many many previous protectors (again from #2):

http://www.bringbackwendell.com/eon4.png

Will.S

11-11-2007, 12:05 AM

That is some awesome art stingerman, is that John Buscema?

StoneGold

11-11-2007, 03:01 AM

That is some awesome art stingerman, is that John Buscema?

Paul Ryan. Who is technically a great artist, but also tends to be the dullest, most lifeless artist ever.

wallred

11-11-2007, 07:42 AM

Eon's Creds (from Quasar #2):

http://www.bringbackwendell.com/eon1.png
http://www.bringbackwendell.com/eon2.png
http://www.bringbackwendell.com/eon3.png

According to Quasar #2, Eon is...

"The offspring of Eternity, the personification of the life force of the universe. The offspring of the Cosmic Axis, around which the universe swirls and dances. The offspring of Time, the first dimension that came into being, without which no other dimension would be possible."

I always saw Eon has tasked by Eternity with Infinity powering his champion...so he served the "light" side of the cosmic compass (Eternity and Infinity) against the "dark" side (Death and Oblivion).

Raker Q.

11-11-2007, 01:12 PM

Nothing wrong with my breathing. No hyperventilating anywhere in sight.
ok...I thought I heard some weezing but I'm glad your ok.... I kid I kid...how you been Bob-el......I've enjoyed our conversation....glad you dont mind my sillyness.....lets continue...

So let's have a short conversation on the subject of what makes one character greater than another, all joking aside. It is one thing to say that you like Quasar better than Warlock or vice versa. That is personal opinion and you are certainly entitled to it. You took it one step farther to say that one is greater than the other and that's a claim that needs a basis other than personal opinion (in my opinion).
...ok point taken....having read alot of both characters, theres no denying that both have saved the universe countless times......to me...in my opinion.....it would seem somebody would have to be pretty important in the grand scheme of things if not just one but two entities appoint you as their chosen one then you must be important or great which is what I'm using as my reasoning for saying what I said........not that Warlock isnt important....hell you and I have read many issue where he has done some amazing stuff but I just hold Wendell slightly higher......again....this is by no means fact....just how I feel.

So what are we to basis it on? Not popularity, you've dismissed that as a standard. Not longevity of role within the MU, you've thrown that out too. Initially, I thought you thought it had something to do with his coming back from the dead but since you have Starlin's Warlock series (if I understood you correctly) that ain't it either.

The base of your argument seems to boil down to Quasar having been appointed Protector of the Universe. Now I've never quite been sure who gave Eon the authority to do that and tend to believe he appointed himself to do the appointing so maybe the title isn't quite as big a deal as you think. But by the same logic, a) Quasar was second choice since Eon selected Mar-Vell first and b) that would make Gravity a greater character than Warlock too. Maybe you believe that last contention too but I don't think you will find too many folks willing to agree with it.
yes...you are correct here....Wendell importance seems to be from all the "light side" entities in the MU....Eternitys offspring Eon appoints Wendell as his chosen champion to protect the universe.....to me thats a big deal......but on top of that Infinity chooses Wendell as her avatar......again thats huge.....I belive no other has had that honor EVAH! :D .......and even though Warlocks origin was in 1967 he didnt really break ground untill 1972 with his title.....Wendell's origin came in 1978 so the two arent that far off from each other.....and according to the http://www.chronologyproject.com/ Wendell has appeared in more comics which might mean more times he has saved the universe which would also back my arguement.....but unless someone counts up all the saves on each side we may never know....it will just be based on opinion.....and since Warlock has always had the bigger push.....bigger stories like Infinity Gauntlet, I do realize I'm in the minority.....but that doesnt mean I should just back down from my point of view....I think Wendell is great and will always express that any chance I get....but I still love Warlock.....some of the best cosmic stories evah!.....I do see your side and respect your opinion but it still doesnt change mine.....hell I love talking cosmic so anytime I get a chance its a win/win for me....I'm having a blast talking to you so I hope it continues.

So you like Quasar, I like Quasar. You like Warlock, I like Warlock. You like Quasar better than Warlock. Have a cookie on me. I do like Warlock better. I think I'll have some ice cream. But Quasar greater than Warlock even though he hasn't been around as long, isn't as popular and hasn't been as central to several big events in the MU is still hard to swallow even if I wash down that cookie you offered with a large glass of milk. :D
Can my cookie be penut butter...thats my favorite.....and may I recomend Rocky Road for ice cream.....one of my favorites plus its symbolic for the path Wendell has been on in the past year :D ......and cookies with milk is ok but cookies with chocolate milk is even better.....or do we need to go into debate for which milk is better too? ;) ..........heh....so in conclusion I guess we may never know who truley is "greater", maybe we can ask Mr. Owl since he knows everything.....like how many licks it takes to get to the center of a tootsie roll lollipop!

DaeJi

11-11-2007, 01:15 PM

stingerman

11-11-2007, 05:40 PM

That is some awesome art stingerman, is that John Buscema?

I think Paul Ryan did issues 1-6 of Quasar. Here's his website:
http://www.secondstargraphics.com/

XPac

11-11-2007, 06:27 PM

I think the big thing about Warlock is that he exist outside of things like fate and destiny and all that, unlike Wendell, or Phyla. He's the ultimate wild card, able to do things that others can't do, step in where others can, and upset plans like no one can.

Yeah. That was a cool characteristic they created for Warlock which really made him such a logical universal savier. Gods feared him because of it.

Though again, I fear his new status quo will limit. If he basically goes insane and hides in his cocoon everytime a whole lot of people die, his usefullness will be pretty limited.

DaeJi

11-11-2007, 08:13 PM

Yeah. That was a cool characteristic they created for Warlock which really made him such a logical universal savier. Gods feared him because of it.

Though again, I fear his new status quo will limit. If he basically goes insane and hides in his cocoon everytime a whole lot of people die, his usefullness will be pretty limited.

I think he's in a development stage at the moment; I see a character arc happening for him, like Nova got in Annihilation. We'll see where he's at at the end of Conquest.

Bob-el

11-13-2007, 07:38 PM

DaeJi

11-13-2007, 08:10 PM

Glad to see you agree. In assessing the issue, I don't think these elements are getting the credit they deserve.

I love everything to do with Phyla but not Wendell :D

Bob-el

11-13-2007, 08:12 PM

For me it was a mixed bag.

The book, like the series in entire series (and honestly like the entire Conquest event so far) is so-so. Doesn't suck... but so far it's kinda fell flat compared to the first big event. Hopefully that will change.

I do like Warlock being thrown into the mix since I am a fan of the character. I thought throwing Wendell in there to basically give Phyla props was pretty blah... but it's exactly what I expected them to do.

Ah well... it was better than Wraith.

Hi XPac,

I've got to say that last reply seemed pretty testy.

I'm generally not willing to be told I'm completely wrong without an argument so I went back to look at what preceded my first post in this thread.

Your explanation of what you didn't like is quoted above. Your reasons for not liking the series or issue consisted of it felt so-so and flat. I suppose in some sense that counts as giving reasons but it doesn't really tell me anything specific that I could accept or disagree with.

Looking back there were a lot more positive comments than I remembered. The complaints were statements that the issue was "cliche", "stupid as hell", and "boring" and that the art was "sloppy". I got a run of adjectives and subjectivity but very little in the way of particulars.

Compound that with posters who were willing to dump the whole thing - Conquest and all - over the two pages of Quasar and, well, I really felt like I needed to challenge those willing to dismiss the issue to be more forthcoming.

I guess it somewhat depends on what you, and I mean you specifically, consider people giving their reasons and what I think that means. Like so many times in trying to have a meaningful conversation, it probably is necessary to define some of the most fundamental of terms just to see if we are talking about the same thing.

I don't expect everybody (or even most people) to agree with me but I do expect them to be able to defend their positions with something more than just a "well that's how I feel".

Bob-el

11-13-2007, 08:46 PM

...ok point taken....having read alot of both characters, theres no denying that both have saved the universe countless times......to me...in my opinion.....it would seem somebody would have to be pretty important in the grand scheme of things if not just one but two entities appoint you as their chosen one then you must be important or great which is what I'm using as my reasoning for saying what I said........not that Warlock isnt important....hell you and I have read many issue where he has done some amazing stuff but I just hold Wendell slightly higher......again....this is by no means fact....just how I feel.

it will just be based on opinion.....and since Warlock has always had the bigger push.....bigger stories like Infinity Gauntlet, I do realize I'm in the minority.....but that doesnt mean I should just back down from my point of view....I think Wendell is great and will always express that any chance I get....but I still love Warlock.....some of the best cosmic stories evah!.....I do see your side and respect your opinion but it still doesnt change mine.....hell I love talking cosmic so anytime I get a chance its a win/win for me....I'm having a blast talking to you so I hope it continues.

Can my cookie be penut butter...thats my favorite.....and may I recomend Rocky Road for ice cream.....one of my favorites plus its symbolic for the path Wendell has been on in the past year :D ......and cookies with milk is ok but cookies with chocolate milk is even better.....or do we need to go into debate for which milk is better too? ;) ..........heh....so in conclusion I guess we may never know who truley is "greater", maybe we can ask Mr. Owl since he knows everything.....like how many licks it takes to get to the center of a tootsie roll lollipop!

You can have a whole box of peanut butter patties as long as I get few Thin Mints out of the deal. But enough about food. Mr. Owl, eh? I'd have to say "three" wasn't an answer that inspired much confidence.

I yield on the point of Eon's authority to convey the title of Protector. His pedigree is impressive to be sure and I won't even challenge that we mostly know all this because he says so.

My intent was not so much to change your opinion. I found your initial comment rather dismissive of Warlock and just felt it shouldn't go unchallenged. Over the course of our posts, I find our positions much closer than they originally seemed.

All that said, let me drop a couple of more thoughts into the mix. You will probably feel a need to challenge at least one.

1) No. I meant what I said when I said Wendall was second choice. As best I can determine when Eon was looking for a new Protector, Wendall was available. Instead he selected Mar-Vell. Wendall was only selected once Mar-Vell was no longer available.

2) It is one thing to be chosen Protector but another to be good at it. My memory is that Wendall's tenure was as you put it a rocky road. Was it Maelstrom that cut off his hands? That Kid Death sequence still counts as one of the most bizarre stories I've ever read. Quasar suffered some of the worst defeats of any hero in my memory.

3) The notion that Quasar is greater because he was selected may be backward. No one had to select Warlock. He has risen on his own merits (admittedly though with the backing of the High Evolutionary). Would Quasar have been as big a deal if he hadn't been selected? He is, after all, one in a line of Protectors. I would claim Warlock is unique except of course he is not (There is after all a Her) but at least he is the first of his kind.

All of the above, probably overstates the case by a bit but some of it speaks to why I like Warlock better. There was from the beginning something different, exceptional about him. He has had a rare talent for achieving a victory in the most difficult of circumstances. His flair for tactics is unlike anybody else in the Marvel universe.

DaeJi

11-13-2007, 08:55 PM

1) No. I meant what I said when I said Wendall was second choice. As best I can determine when Eon was looking for a new Protector, Wendall was available. Instead he selected Mar-Vell. Wendall was only selected once Mar-Vell was no longer available.

Second choice doesn't mean second best. Every time a Protector the Universe dies someone new is chosen; heck, Wendell may have not even been on the list when Mar was chosen.

2) It is one thing to be chosen Protector but another to be good at it. My memory is that Wendall's tenure was as you put it a rocky road. Was it Maelstrom that cut off his hands? That Kid Death sequence still counts as one of the most bizarre stories I've ever read. Quasar suffered some of the worst defeats of any hero in my memory.

Can't argue with that.

3) The notion that Quasar is greater because he was selected may be backward. No one had to select Warlock. He has risen on his own merits (admittedly though with the backing of the High Evolutionary). Would Quasar have been as big a deal if he hadn't been selected? He is, after all, one in a line of Protectors. I would claim Warlock is unique except of course he is not (There is after all a Her) but at least he is the first of his kind.

Warlock is still unique; afterall, he's Him, not Her (and Her, or Kismet, pales in comparison to Him, or Adam Warlock, anyway). And his big thing is that he lives outside of fate and destiny. He can't be chosen for anything because he's outside that, and that makes him able to do things no one else can, like defeat villains who are destined to win or something.

Enigmanaut

11-13-2007, 09:00 PM

1) No. I meant what I said when I said Wendall was second choice. As best I can determine when Eon was looking for a new Protector, Wendall was available. Instead he selected Mar-Vell. Wendall was only selected once Mar-Vell was no longer available.

Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but Wendell was a kid when Mar-Vell was active... I know he served in the military and SHIELD from his late teens through his mid twenties. By the time he gained the Quantum Bands, Mar-Vell was gone. As soon as Wendell left Earth for the first time, he got the tap from Eon.

I don't think it was a second choice at all. I think Eon would never have contacted Wendell at all if he hadn't thought him up to the job. Of course, Eon may have been backed into a corner by his impending assassination, but I think he was honestly impressed by Wendell's ability to handle the bands.

It seems to me, though, that Epoch had the capability of appointing a new PotU when Wendell died again, and instead of choosing the current Band wielder, she chose Greg Willis.

That may be a point against Phyla, or it may be that Epoch felt the bands irreversibly contaminated by Annihilus (though, it seems unlikely that she couldn't just fix them, or even make a new set of bands). It should also be pointed out that Greg has a lot in common with Wendell. His overall personality, his great potential, and the place of his birth being a few counties over from Wendell... he may have just reminded her of Wendell, and we know she had a strong attachment to Wendell, him being her "godfather" and all. Could have been sentiment.

DaeJi

11-13-2007, 09:02 PM

That may be a point against Phyla, or it may be that Epoch felt the bands irreversibly contaminated by Annihilus (though, it seems unlikely that she couldn't just fix them, or even make a new set of bands). It should also be pointed out that Greg has a lot in common with Wendell. His overall personality, his great potential, and the place of his birth being a few counties over from Wendell... he may have just reminded her of Wendell, and we know she had a strong attachment to Wendell, him being her "godfather" and all. Could have been sentiment.

You do you that she could have appointed him before Phyla got the Bands.

Enigmanaut

11-13-2007, 09:12 PM

You do you that she could have appointed him before Phyla got the Bands.

Nope. That doesn't track. When she appointed Gravity, she was on the run from a newly released, and mightily hungry Post-Annihilation Galactus and his two Post-Annihilation heralds. Since Phyla got the bands within minutes of Galactus' release from Annihilus, this places the FF story with Epoch after Annihilation, and during Phyla's stewardship of the bands. So, there are only a few reasons I can think of that Epoch went another way.

1.) She finds Phyla unworthy. For a number of reasons, I find this unlikely. Phyla could not have had the bands long enough for Epoch to truly assess her as PotU.
2.) Gravity seems to be a subject she knew a great deal about. She may have had him tapped for a potential since before Wendell died. Since it would have taken centuries for him to reach full potency, she figured he was long term, but the "Galactus is gonna eat me" crisis may have made her desperate enough to go for Greg than to track down the bands and hope their new wielder wasn't a waste.
3.) Gravity may have had that sentimental "reminds me of Wendell" thing going... though Epoch doesn't seem overly sentimental.
4.) The bands corruption made them less appealing to use in her cause until she could purge them good and proper.
5.) While it was definitely post Annihilation, the FF story could be during Conquest, and thus Eppy was cut off from Kree Space and Phyla.
6.) Galactus was hunting her, the bands would be of little use against him, but Gravity might have been helpful.

Personally, I think 2, 5 and 6 are the most likely.

DaeJi

11-13-2007, 09:20 PM

Nope. That doesn't track. When she appointed Gravity, she was on the run from a newly released, and mightily hungry Post-Annihilation Galactus and his two Post-Annihilation heralds.

Oh, I forgot that part. Anyway, I don't see it as slam against Phyla. I would actually rather see her not get appointed. It keeps her a wild card, and doesn't sentence her to the same fate as the other PotU.

wallred

11-13-2007, 11:46 PM

From my reading of Quasar, Protectors are appointed to combat specific threats. So, Mar-Vell was appointed Protector of the Universe to take care of the threat that Thanos represented...which I was always a little fuzzy about...was it that he could blow up a star? If so, even if he did a star a second for a year, then yes, it's bad, but hardly an urgent galactic level emergency in a universe of billions of galaxies each with billions of stars. That doesn't even include travel time, either.
Wendell was appointed to combat his specific threat, Maelstrom, a truly universal threat. Remember, Wendell had the Bands quite awhile (over 10 years our time, but probably about 30 seconds Marvel time) before getting tapped for the job. Personally, I think only a set type of personality will be worthy of the Bands, and of those, not all will be appointed, but that's just my interpretation.
As an aside, one of the things that's always bugged me about Starlin's 2 (Thanos and Warlock)...actually, I guess it's more his writing than the characters...but, they seem to be built up at the expense of other characters. Thanos, especially, never seems to take any well-deserved lumps.

Oh, and here's Eon's final message to Wendell...
Quasar, if you are hearing this, I am dead.
But do not think the universe poorer for it. I have perfect confidence that my daughter will soon be able to take my place in the cosmic scheme of things.
She will need your help, however. Whereas I was your mentor, you will have to be hers. You have to help her along as she grows into omniscience.
I must take my leave of you now forever, but I just want you to know that you have fulfilled all of my considerable expectations of you -- and have made me proud. Truly you are the greatest of my champions.
From this moment onward, your destiny as Protector of the Universe is your own to chart. I know you will be up to it. Farewell, Quasar.
As for the Fantastic Four isses, Galactus wanting to eat Epoch makes no sense whatsoever.

DaeJi

11-14-2007, 12:52 AM

From my reading of Quasar, Protectors are appointed to combat specific threats. So, Mar-Vell was appointed Protector of the Universe to take care of the threat that Thanos represented...which I was always a little fuzzy about...was it that he could blow up a star? If so, even if he did a star a second for a year, then yes, it's bad, but hardly an urgent galactic level emergency in a universe of billions of galaxies each with billions of stars. That doesn't even include travel time, either.
Wendell was appointed to combat his specific threat, Maelstrom, a truly universal threat. Remember, Wendell had the Bands quite awhile (over 10 years our time, but probably about 30 seconds Marvel time) before getting tapped for the job. Personally, I think only a set type of personality will be worthy of the Bands, and of those, not all will be appointed, but that's just my interpretation.
As an aside, one of the things that's always bugged me about Starlin's 2 (Thanos and Warlock)...actually, I guess it's more his writing than the characters...but, they seem to be built up at the expense of other characters. Thanos, especially, never seems to take any well-deserved lumps.

Oh, and here's Eon's final message to Wendell...

As for the Fantastic Four isses, Galactus wanting to eat Epoch makes no sense whatsoever.

And once that threat is gone, the savior just hangs around until killed off once the next threat pops up the universe needs a new savior. Personally, I'm still glad Phyla hasn't been chosen.

And Starlin... there's nothing wrong with the Thanos and Adam Warlock character in and of themselves, and Starlin did give them a great history and set some strong foundations. But I will say that he was a little too protective of them, always finding ways to excuse every time they have a less than perfect showing (like the Thanos clones every time Thanos loses to someone). So while I do like the characters, I don't like Starlin's babying of them. Of course now with Annihilation I don't have to worry about that.

XPac

11-14-2007, 09:01 AM

And once that threat is gone, the savior just hangs around until killed off once the next threat pops up the universe needs a new savior. Personally, I'm still glad Phyla hasn't been chosen.

And Starlin... there's nothing wrong with the Thanos and Adam Warlock character in and of themselves, and Starlin did give them a great history and set some strong foundations. But I will say that he was a little too protective of them, always finding ways to excuse every time they have a less than perfect showing (like the Thanos clones every time Thanos loses to someone). So while I do like the characters, I don't like Starlin's babying of them. Of course now with Annihilation I don't have to worry about that.

I actually agree with Starlin on that front. The problem wasn't JUST that Starlin didn't want Thanos to lose... the problem was that other writers were constantly turning Thanos back into a universe destroying villain after he spent all this time trying to evolve Thanos into a character that gave up trying to destroy the universe. So what Starlin did was simply make the Thanos appearances make more sense.

wallred

11-14-2007, 12:14 PM

And once that threat is gone, the savior just hangs around until killed off once the next threat pops up the universe needs a new savior. Personally, I'm still glad Phyla hasn't been chosen.

You could see it like that, but I always saw it as a bit of the whole mythic destiny thing. Marv's destiny was to battle Thanos as the Protector of the Universe and then die of cancer (apparently). I don't think that means that a Protector had to be around for only 1 threat, though. I could see Wendell hanging around for multiple threats, especially since everything changed with Eon dying and the birth of Epoch.
What I really want to know, though, is whether or not Phyla is worthy of the Bands. Now before anybody freaks out, I don't mean is she a worthy character...I'm speaking specifically to worthiness to wield the Quantum-Bands. It takes a certain personality not to go boom, which is why I think replacing Wendell was unwise. Why replace him with somebody who by definition has to be almost exactly (personality-wise) like him. Remember, Eon had to change Mar-Vell to make him worthy to be a Protector (worthy of Bands = worthy to be Protector) by transforming him from a warrior to a pacifist defender. Phyla seems to be in the warrior mode, so I think whether or not she's worthy is a fair question.
So, with the corruption gone, what happens now?

She could be worthy of the Quantum-Bands.
She could not be worthy, but grandfathered in because the Bands "chose" her.
She could be unworthy, but won't go boom while disconnected from the Quantum Zone.
Or, keeping with the whole "Joan of Arc" thing, she could actually go boom.

I don't see #4 happening.
Also, I think I see the Bands a bit differently than Christos. Whereas I see the initial overload as the Bands testing the wearer and that's it, I think Christos sees it as more of a constant, ongoing test that could be failed at any time. Personally, I don't like that. I like to think of the Bands more along the lines of Excalibur only the knights that fail get vaporized. Arthur didn't have to keep pulling the darn thing out of a rock.

DaeJi

11-14-2007, 03:59 PM

You could see it like that, but I always saw it as a bit of the whole mythic destiny thing. Marv's destiny was to battle Thanos as the Protector of the Universe and then die of cancer (apparently). I don't think that means that a Protector had to be around for only 1 threat, though. I could see Wendell hanging around for multiple threats, especially since everything changed with Eon dying and the birth of Epoch.
What I really want to know, though, is whether or not Phyla is worthy of the Bands. Now before anybody freaks out, I don't mean is she a worthy character...I'm speaking specifically to worthiness to wield the Quantum-Bands. It takes a certain personality not to go boom, which is why I think replacing Wendell was unwise. Why replace him with somebody who by definition has to be almost exactly (personality-wise) like him. Remember, Eon had to change Mar-Vell to make him worthy to be a Protector (worthy of Bands = worthy to be Protector) by transforming him from a warrior to a pacifist defender. Phyla seems to be in the warrior mode, so I think whether or not she's worthy is a fair question.
So, with the corruption gone, what happens now?

She could be worthy of the Quantum-Bands.
She could not be worthy, but grandfathered in because the Bands "chose" her.
She could be unworthy, but won't go boom while disconnected from the Quantum Zone.
Or, keeping with the whole "Joan of Arc" thing, she could actually go boom.

I don't see #4 happening.
Also, I think I see the Bands a bit differently than Christos. Whereas I see the initial overload as the Bands testing the wearer and that's it, I think Christos sees it as more of a constant, ongoing test that could be failed at any time. Personally, I don't like that. I like to think of the Bands more along the lines of Excalibur only the knights that fail get vaporized. Arthur didn't have to keep pulling the darn thing out of a rock.

I prefer my heroes non-destinyed. Which is why I adore Adam Warlock, as he exist outside all that. As for the Bands, Annihilation seems to have altered them and the way they preform. Heck, the BOOM! feature may not even be part of them anymore, and they may actually be wild now, choosing Phyla themselves (mostly for lack of choices but hey, she got them). I like the fact that Phyla is more a warrior and more likely to fight than talk, makes for a more interesting hero in my eyes. Though she is starting to become more spiritual and seems to not prefer to fight.