Civil War: Other Direction

[Zacharius]

Let´s assume that owners of Marvel Universe had gone to other direction.

Anti-Regs win and for next few years Marvel has superhuman dictatorship in every Marvel comic book.

What happens to sales ?

[Expletive Deleted]

I'm not sure I understand. What do you mean by "superhuman dictatorship?"

If the Anti-Reg faction had won, I got the sense that the MU would've effectively gone back to its previous status quo. So . . . sales wouldn't have really been affected, apart from whatever boost they may have gotten from the event itself.

[StoneGold]

I'm not sure I understand. What do you mean by "superhuman dictatorship?"

If the Anti-Reg faction had won, I got the sense that the MU would've effectively gone back to its previous status quo. So . . . sales wouldn't have really been affected, apart from whatever boost they may have gotten from the event itself.

Basically. The biggest difference is that Cap would have never gotten that death boost on #25.

[Zacharius]

I figure that there are two realistic outcomes to significant superpowers. Either those with them take over, e.g. Squadron Supreme, or those with them are crushed or co-opted by the powers that be, e.g. Watchmen, Marvel’s “New Universe.”

Governments letting superheroes do their thing without interference is right out. (let alone giving them privileges without subordinating them, a status the JLA and Avengers have enjoyed.) As is the world being substantially unchanged by decades of time travel, teleportation, artifical intelligence, alien invasion, undeniable evidence of magic and demons, etc., a conceit implicitly upheld by any of the long-running superhero milieus.

There’s been a strong recent trend toward a pseudo-realism. by Zed




With Civil War, Mark Millar and Marvel answered a question many readers didn’t want to ask – how superheroes can operate with impunity and without hurting anyone. We suspended disbelief for years, but Marvel finally decided to take the kid gloves off and ask how the real world might, theoretically, allow superheroes to operate – that is, licensed, registered, trained, and accountable. In that regard, I applaud Marvel for exploring the logical implications of their own universe. by kurt Amacker, Columnist


The point is that Mark Millar wanted some kind of "pseudo-realism" injected into Marvel Universe.

There were three possible endings for Civil War:

1. Back to Status Quo
2. Pro-Regs win (which happened)

3. Pro-Regs lose ,which means that government itself loses.Only way government can truly lose is that it is overthrown.Nation needs another government and solution is Squadron Supreme-model.

[Expletive Deleted]

Only way government can truly lose is that it is overthrown.That seems unnecessarily black-and-white. Governments "lose" all the time (laws repealed, laws found unconstitutional, laws rendered unenforceable), and don't automatically implode.

[Zacharius]

That seems unnecessarily black-and-white. Governments "lose" all the time (laws repealed, laws found unconstitutional, laws rendered unenforceable), and don't automatically implode.

Yes but we are talking about Marvel Universe where government is more corrupt than real-life USA and normal humans are fearful,hateful ingrates.

"You know, we have saved your lives 47 times now"
"Who cares, let´s toss them into jail for life"

SHRA would work in DC Universe because average human there is not hateful psycho.

[mcgaffer]

What would happen is that every hero would get the Spider-Man/Punisher/X-Men treatment. Come to think of it all it would mean is that the Avengers and the FF get to know what it feels like to be the X-Men. Ok the crowds are'nt cheering, there screaming hate at us and now here comes the cops and the army to shoot at us. Quick, now we've saved their lives let's get back to our secret base and hide from a world that fears and hates us.

The government would be running some massive spin stories to show the heros as a bunch of domineering monsters trying to stamp out free will. In fact to prove this SHIELD would probably jump the Pro heros and show them on camera being led into 42 custody. Then with cheesy grins tell the world they're winning the war against the meta humans.

[jackolover]

Well, there is always the Sue Richards Doctrine. My husband didn't have the balls to stand up for what is *right*.

From this I surmise she meant, that the SHRA as it stands was a slap in the face for all heroes who didn't cause a Stamford. What Sue wanted was, I think, a renegotiation, so that heroes weren't looked at as the villains in this case. I am talking about a new legislation that puts in stone the contribution of the heroes. Legitimizes their current operating methods. I think if Reed Richards had stood up for the heroes, instead of distanced himself from them, that we would have gotten a more reasonable response from the authorities. At least that's what I think Sue would have thought would happen.

If Reed and Cap had a united front on the matter of the SHRA, there wouldn't have been a war, because Tony wouldn't have persisted with his push, if there were more heroes willing to resist him, and the Fantastic Four standing against him would have taken the wind out of his sails.

What would have happened was that the SHRA would have passed, but the implementation would run out of legs. I doubt the administration would have the guts to implement Project Wideawake against the likes of Reed and Cap. There would have been a cooling off period after the act was made law, and the confrontation would have ceased.

After the initial disputes about the heroes complying to the SHRA, a new set of rules would be set in place, including a consultative forum set in place to air the grievances of both parties, and then the implementation of the Initiative would begin.

Instead of a head to head conflict, I would see a gradual institution of the act, without the disrespect for the heroes that the actual Civil War drove through.

[matthewaos]

If OUR side had won (ok, sorry for that...) it would mean that the goverment would do what Stark was afraid would happen, with the sentinels, or whatever hunting heroes. So that means all outlaws until something happens, or that "something" is overthrowing the government. There could also be the simple conclution "Oh, we were wrong, sorry", back to nothing happened.

[XPac]

I can't believe for a second that the anti's would want any sort of dictatorship. Especially if Cap was in charge.

But I suppose if things REALLY got extreme, like Tony assumed they might, then it's possible. If the government was insanely evil and stupid enough to try and kill the entire hero community like Tony believed, then the heroes might be forced to overthrow the government for the greater good (because the US if not the world and the whole freaking universe relies on the american hero community for protection).

Even if the heroes did overthrow government, I can't imagine Cap doing anything that extreme. I suppose if that happened, Tony and certain members of the Illuminat MIGHT consider some kind of Gruenwald/Squadron Supreme sort of situation. But it would probably be done by the pro's moreso than the antis.

The anti-s were more about protecting the status quo than anything else. It was the pro's that had the more radical agendas.

[TotalWorldDomination]

A world where superhumans set up a dictatorship over humans only could occur after they beat the backup to Tony Stark- Project Wideawake. An army of sentinals, 100% lethal methods, concentration camps, I doubt the superhuman army under cap could withstand that (or perhaps they will. I think we'll see this in What If: Civil War)

[XPac]

A world where superhumans set up a dictatorship over humans only could occur after they beat the backup to Tony Stark- Project Wideawake. An army of sentinals, 100% lethal methods, concentration camps, I doubt the superhuman army under cap could withstand that (or perhaps they will. I think we'll see this in What If: Civil War)

The government couldn't even handle Hulk, so I'm not sure that the superhero community really had that much to be afraid of.

[jackolover]

Even if the heroes did overthrow government, I can't imagine Cap doing anything that extreme. I suppose if that happened, Tony and certain members of the Illuminat MIGHT consider some kind of Gruenwald/Squadron Supreme sort of situation. But it would probably be done by the pro's moreso than the antis.

The anti-s were more about protecting the status quo than anything else. It was the pro's that had the more radical agendas.

I would have trouble believing the pro-side would overthrow the government, because they are for the law. It could only be the anti-side that overthrows the government.

[jackolover]

The government couldn't even handle Hulk, so I'm not sure that the superhero community really had that much to be afraid of.

The government surrounded New York with Sentinels, in case the Hulk left the city to spread the war, so I don't think the government had exhausted their options regarding the Hulk, just yet. Mind you, whether the Sentinels could have injured the Hulk is another matter. But didn't Stark set up an array of aerials that would teleport NY into the Negative Zone, when the Hulk broke out of NY? That would take out the Hulk, the Warbound, the Illuminati, the FF, the Avengers, and Spiderman. Is there anyone left?

[XPac]

I would have trouble believing the pro-side would overthrow the government, because they are for the law. It could only be the anti-side that overthrows the government.

The pro-side would try to overthrow the government IF the government tried killing them like Stark fears they would. Respect for the law is one thing, but there's a limit.

Stark is actually more fearful of the government than Cap is, that's the irony of the whole thing. Again, Stark is fearful that the government will eventually kill off the heroes if something like the registration doesn't exist. I doubt Cap believes things would go that far, because he actually has faith in the government and the people (even if he e thinks they're wrong in this case).

[XPac]

The government surrounded New York with Sentinels, in case the Hulk left the city to spread the war, so I don't think the government had exhausted their options regarding the Hulk, just yet. Mind you, whether the Sentinels could have injured the Hulk is another matter. But didn't Stark set up an array of aerials that would teleport NY into the Negative Zone, when the Hulk broke out of NY? That would take out the Hulk, the Warbound, the Illuminati, the FF, the Avengers, and Spiderman. Is there anyone left?

Yeah, Stark did rig up something that could actually work.

That's the really scary thing about Stark being involved in government... they're actually becoming a credible threat now. They have the spin tech to depower heroes, and they have Starks Doomsday device.

But in regards to the Sentinals... those things only work in alternative universes and "What If's." In the regular 616, Giant robots are only a small notch above ninjas... they're cannon fodder.

[jackolover]

But in regards to the Sentinels... those things only work in alternative universes and "What If's." In the regular 616, Giant robots are only a small notch above ninjas... they're cannon fodder.

Yet Stark was fearful that Project Wideawake, using only Sentinels, was a threat to wipe out the supers. If Sentinels were easy-beats, why was Stark so paranoid about getting wiped out?

The pro-side would try to overthrow the government IF the government tried killing them like Stark fears they would. Respect for the law is one thing, but there's a limit.

Stark is actually more fearful of the government than Cap is, that's the irony of the whole thing. Again, Stark is fearful that the government will eventually kill off the heroes if something like the registration doesn't exist. I doubt Cap believes things would go that far, because he actually has faith in the government and the people (even if he e thinks they're wrong in this case).

I would reckon that Tony would do a pre-emptive strike on all the threats the government had, if he had an inkling that there was going to be a genocide, because Tony had private knowledge of the plans against supers. If Tony is that paranoid about the governments crackdown on heroes, why doesn't he clandestinely undermine Project Wideawake from behind the scenes? Stark never really wanted the SHRA to go through, but is taking advantage of it to push through his Initiative, and have Reed and Henry Pyms plans get implemented. Sounds to me like the government and Tony Stark had made a deal to not touch Tony Reed and Pym, if they cooperated with the SHRA? This sounds like WW 11 collaborators.

[XPac]

Yet Stark was fearful that Project Wideawake, using only Sentinels, was a threat to wipe out the supers. If Sentinels were easy-beats, why was Stark so paranoid about getting wiped out?



I would reckon that Tony would do a pre-emptive strike on all the threats the government had, if he had an inkling that there was going to be a genocide, because Tony had private knowledge of the plans against supers. If Tony is that paranoid about the governments crackdown on heroes, why doesn't he clandestinely undermine Project Wideawake from behind the scenes? Stark never really wanted the SHRA to go through, but is taking advantage of it to push through his Initiative, and have Reed and Henry Pyms plans get implemented. Sounds to me like the government and Tony Stark had made a deal to not touch Tony Reed and Pym, if they cooperated with the SHRA? This sounds like WW 11 collaborators.

Frankly I have no idea why he was so paranoid about the US government wiping them out. The Kree's and Skrulls are thousands of years ahead of the US government in terms of technology, and the heroes regularly eat them for breakfast.

And really, why would the US government even want to kill the heroes? The heroes have saved the world from being conquered or destroyed dozens upon dozens of times. Regardless of what sort of threat the heroes may in theory represent, there's no rationale reason the government would believe the heroes are greater evil from the things the heroes regularly protect the government from. Stark to me was just being paranoid. Why that is, I don't know.

And if push really came to shove, and Stark and Reed had to decide between the destruction of the hero community and the fall of the US government, I'll bet they would side with the heroes. Again, the US hero community is necessary not just for the survival of the US or even the earth, but of the whole freaking universe. It's a resource that CANNOT be allowed to die.

[jackolover]

Frankly I have no idea why he was so paranoid about the US government wiping them out. The Kree's and Skrulls are thousands of years ahead of the US government in terms of technology, and the heroes regularly eat them for breakfast.

And really, why would the US government even want to kill the heroes? The heroes have saved the world from being conquered or destroyed dozens upon dozens of times. Regardless of what sort of threat the heroes may in theory represent, there's no rationale reason the government would believe the heroes are greater evil from the things the heroes regularly protect the government from. Stark to me was just being paranoid. Why that is, I don't know.

And if push really came to shove, and Stark and Reed had to decide between the destruction of the hero community and the fall of the US government, I'll bet they would side with the heroes. Again, the US hero community is necessary not just for the survival of the US or even the earth, but of the whole freaking universe. It's a resource that CANNOT be allowed to die.

So you have to wonder, don't you, why does Tony Reed and Hank back the SHRA, (apart from being able to exercise their plans). I know Reed thought the future of superhumans was going to have a 'major clash' with authority, but what 'major clash' could compare to the Civil War anyway? Reed basically precipitated his 'major clash'.

As for Tony feeling that Project Wideawake was all that scary, either he is not letting out that more violent means were part of that plan, or, Tony is a profiteering scumbag.

[XPac]

So you have to wonder, don't you, why does Tony Reed and Hank back the SHRA, (apart from being able to exercise their plans). I know Reed thought the future of superhumans was going to have a 'major clash' with authority, but what 'major clash' could compare to the Civil War anyway? Reed basically precipitated his 'major clash'.

As for Tony feeling that Project Wideawake was all that scary, either he is not letting out that more violent means were part of that plan, or, Tony is a profiteering scumbag.

The REAL answer I suspect is to justify Civil War. I think a LOT of people had to act a lot dumber than they normally would in order for Civil War to happen. Cap, Tony, Reed, Hank, the government, etc... the only person in the entire event that was exactly the right level of stupid was Hill.

I don't think calling Tony a profiteering scumbag is entirely fair (though there are certainly threads of truth in there). I think he genuinely believes he's right... I just can't really understand WHY he thinks he's right.

[jackolover]

The REAL answer I suspect is to justify Civil War. I think a LOT of people had to act a lot dumber than they normally would in order for Civil War to happen. Cap, Tony, Reed, Hank, the government, etc... the only person in the entire event that was exactly the right level of stupid was Hill.

It seems like a majority of heroes were deluded into thinking that the SHRA was a serious threat to their way of life. That would be your dumbing down. Your dumb Maria Hill started the paranoia by confronting Cap with it. When she exacted a reaction from Cap, instead of him telling her to stick it, he played right into the Civil War mentality. Once Cap was marginalized, Tony had to follow suit, and Reed and Hank went along. When MU Bush had that meeting of the council, and mentioned Cap, it all went to hell after that.

I don't think calling Tony a profiteering scumbag is entirely fair (though there are certainly threads of truth in there). I think he genuinely believes he's right... I just can't really understand WHY he thinks he's right.[/QUOTE]

Tony, originally discouraged the select committee on Registration, until he saw Stamford. After being at the site of destruction with Peter Parker, as the President flew over head, it changed everything for Tony. He then decided prudence was the better tactic, and to follow along with what the government came up with. All the government wanted was Registration, and that's what Tony went along with, and hoped Cap and the others would agree. When Cap didn't agree, I don't know why Tony persisted with going ahead, because, he admitted, that the Civil War wasn't worth it. I think Tony made the mistake of assuming that if he shows leadership, everyone will follow. He didn't count on Caps resistance. The whole thing was a conflict of egos, and would have required Tony to back down once Cap took a stand against the SHRA.

[jackolover]

The REAL answer I suspect is to justify Civil War. I think a LOT of people had to act a lot dumber than they normally would in order for Civil War to happen. Cap, Tony, Reed, Hank, the government, etc... the only person in the entire event that was exactly the right level of stupid was Hill.

It seems like a majority of heroes were deluded into thinking that the SHRA was a serious threat to their way of life. That would be your dumbing down. Your dumb Maria Hill started the paranoia by confronting Cap with it. When she exacted a reaction from Cap, instead of him telling her to stick it, he played right into the Civil War mentality. Once Cap was marginalized, Tony had to follow suit, and Reed and Hank went along. When MU Bush had that meeting of the council, and mentioned Cap, it all went to hell after that.



I don't think calling Tony a profiteering scumbag is entirely fair (though there are certainly threads of truth in there). I think he genuinely believes he's right... I just can't really understand WHY he thinks he's right.

Tony, originally discouraged the select committee on Registration, until he saw Stamford. After being at the site of destruction with Peter Parker, as the President flew over head, it changed everything for Tony. He then decided prudence was the better tactic, and to follow along with what the government came up with. All the government wanted was Registration, and that's what Tony went along with, and hoped Cap and the others would agree. When Cap didn't agree, I don't know why Tony persisted with going ahead, because, he admitted, that the Civil War wasn't worth it. I think Tony made the mistake of assuming that if he shows leadership, everyone will follow. He didn't count on Caps resistance. The whole thing was a conflict of egos, and would have required Tony to back down once Cap took a stand against the SHRA.