How far are schools allowed to go now?

[pariah-1972]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandi_blackbear

I was flippin channels and i came across this true life movie about a girl being suspended for practicing witchcraft.

i was slightly more interested in it since it happened in my hometown and i never heard about it.
the question i have for some of the lawyers on here..
how is this possible?
the reasoning the judge gave was that since Brandi doesn't truly claim to be a witch or wiccan that the school was right in suspending her..
maybe i'm misreading this wrong but i sure doesn't make sense to me.
is freedom of religion only applies to people who actually believe in said religion?
if someone wears a yarmulke to school and they get suspended the school is in the right if that person is only wearing it for some fashion statement?
:confused: :confused: :confused:

sorry if i'm ranting but i really don't understand the logic of this.

[BoosterBronze]

I'd take any Lifetime tv movie with a giant grain of salt.

On the other hand, aquick googling shows there may be some truth to it, albeit seven years old.

[pariah-1972]

I'd take any Lifetime tv movie with a giant grain of salt.

On the other hand, aquick googling shows there may be some truth to it, albeit seven years old.Yes i researched it to see how truthfull it was.
it's just scary what schools can get away with nowadays:eek: :mad:

[Michael P]

Yes i researched it to see how truthfull it was.

Well, why not share some of that research with us?

[pariah-1972]

Well, why not share some of that research with us?Sure okay.


http://mirror.hb-rights.org/www.abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/studentmagic001028.html
http://www.bubbaworld.com/witches.html

[Roquefort Raider]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandi_blackbear

I was flippin channels and i came across this true life movie about a girl being suspended for practicing witchcraft.

i was slightly more interested in it since it happened in my hometown and i never heard about it.
the question i have for some of the lawyers on here..
how is this possible?

Well, she did turn the principal into a newt.

[Michael P]

Well, she did turn the principal into a newt.

A newt?

(10)

[Winslow]

Well, she did turn the principal into a newt.

So THAT's where Gingrich came from . . . .

[pariah-1972]

Well, she did turn the principal into a newt.That sounds like something out of a Harry Potter movie:evilsmile

[Roquefort Raider]

That sounds like something out of a Harry Potter movie:evilsmile

It's from Monty Python and the holy grail, actually.

[Slam_Bradley]

A newt?

(10)


Well he got better.

[Matt Algren]

Well he got better.
Burn her anyway!

Also, I saw that movie (sue me, I'm a fan of Alia Shawkat's from Arrested Development) and I'm still trying to get the stink out of my TV. Horribly, horribly, horribly bad. Not even funny bad.

[Nitmo]

If you think this is bad, you should look up the West Memphis Three

[pariah-1972]

If you think this is bad, you should look up the West Memphis ThreeDude don't even get me started on that one.
like i've said a dozen times freedom of religion is a complete and utter fallacy
in America.

i'm just glad i took the safe road and covered my arse by becoming agnostic.
:o

[Matt Algren]

If you think this is bad, you should look up the West Memphis Three
If you think that's bad, you should look up Eric Volz (http://www.friendsofericvolz.com/index.htm).

(Of course, one thing being bad doesn't preclude another from being bad.)

[BoosterBronze]

I'm usually the first to jump to a school's defence while the rest of the thread says "fucking stupid schools" but in this case... what the FUCK were they thinking?!?!?

[Guapo Méndez]

Well, she did turn the principal into a newt.

Nah, I think she just kicked him in the newts. And then the principal yelled "witch."

[pariah-1972]

I'm usually the first to jump to a school's defence while the rest of the thread says "fucking stupid schools" but in this case... what the FUCK were they thinking?!?!?Don't forget the court too..

[Jack Zodiac]

I'm usually the first to jump to a school's defence while the rest of the thread says "fucking stupid schools" but in this case... what the FUCK were they thinking?!?!?

Me, I jump all over the schools with as much vitriol as I can muster, but I feel it'd have been wasted in this case because of how cartoonishly moronic the situation was. Yeah, I understand the increase in precaution at public schools after Columbine, but witchcraft? That doesn't even sound like it could've really happened, it sounds like a shitty fucking movie.

[Michael P]

Oh, by the way: absolutely zero shock that this happened in Tulsa.

[Jack Zodiac]

I'm more shocked that they didn't try and burn her. Although that would've made for a much more interesting Lifetime movie, if such a thing ever existed.

[Michael P]

I'm more shocked that they didn't try and burn her. Although that would've made for a much more interesting Lifetime movie, if such a thing ever existed.

Only if Nathan Fillion and Gina Torres came in and saved her in the nick of time.

[pariah-1972]

Oh, by the way: absolutely zero shock that this happened in Tulsa.I'm somewhat tempted to defend Tulsa schools,
but then i remember the hell i went thru for being a goth in high school
and remembering how much help i got from the powers that be
and i decide you are probably right.

[Jack Zodiac]

Only if Nathan Fillion and Gina Torres came in and saved her in the nick of time.

Ah, well, in that case, it'll never air, because the TV gods have something against either of them getting any work these days.

[hyzmarca]

I just have to ask, how exactly is suspending a student going to stop a Columbine-style shooting? It seems like making a angry and unbalanced student even more angry and less balanced makes that student more likely to show up with a bunch of guns and shoot everyone.

They couldn't have believed that she was dangerous because if they believed she was dangerous they would have put 2 and 2 together and figured out that making her happy would have been the best course of action.

It would have been funny if she did just that.

[Michael P]

I just have to ask, how exactly is suspending a student going to stop a Columbine-style shooting? It seems like making a angry and unbalanced student even more angry and less balanced makes that student more likely to show up with a bunch of guns and shoot everyone.

Especially if you suspended them for three days. That's the waiting period right there.

[pariah-1972]

I just have to ask, how exactly is suspending a student going to stop a Columbine-style shooting? It seems like making a angry and unbalanced student even more angry and less balanced makes that student more likely to show up with a bunch of guns and shoot everyone.

They couldn't have believed that she was dangerous because if they believed she was dangerous they would have put 2 and 2 together and figured out that making her happy would have been the best course of action.

It would have been funny if she did just that.I think there was some asinine assumption that all "goths" are dangerous psychopaths ready to blow.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I think there was some asinine assumption that all "goths" are dangerous psychopaths ready to blow.

That's a pretty astoundingly stupid assumption, given that goths - like pretty much any fringe group in high school - are much more frequently victims of violence than they are perpetrators. And yes, a very small percentage of the victims do snap, but most don't.

[pariah-1972]

That's a pretty astoundingly stupid assumption, given that goths - like pretty much any fringe group in high school - are much more frequently victims of violence than they are perpetrators. And yes, a very small percentage of the victims do snap, but most don't.It would help if there was some sort of zero tolerance policy on bullying..

but of course since the bullying is usually perpetuated by the jocks and preps and there parents are the ones who usually funnel the most money towards the school they tend to look the other way.

[JeffreyWKramer]

It would help if there was some sort of zero tolerance policy on bullying..

but of course since the bullying is usually perpetuated by the jocks and preps and there parents are the ones who usually funnel the most money towards the school they tend to look the other way.

In theory, Iowa schools have a zero-tolerance policy on bullying. In practice, it doesn't quite work that way yet. We'll see. Personally, I think zero-tolerance policies are stupid. They almost always result in some idiotic results.

[pariah-1972]

In theory, Iowa schools have a zero-tolerance policy on bullying. In practice, it doesn't quite work that way yet. We'll see. Personally, I think zero-tolerance policies are stupid. They almost always result in some idiotic results.You are probably right,
but bullying is hard to detect in most cases so i can't think of any other way to nip it in the bud.

any suggestions?

[JeffreyWKramer]

You are probably right,
but bullying is hard to detect in most cases so i can't think of any other way to nip it in the bud.

any suggestions?

I have no problem with states or school systems stating that bullying will not be tolerated, and will be appropriately punished. The problem is that zero-tolerance policies are almost always written in such a manner as to disallow anything that even the dimmest, most judgment-impaired person might regard as a violation of the policy, thus producing results such as second-grade boys being suspended for sexual harassment simply for telling a female classmate she's pretty. Zero-policy rules don't tend to allow any leeway for rational judgment. In trying to protect against assholes that won't otherwise do the right thing, they all too often force people to do something wrong and stupid in obedience to the rigid rules.

[pariah-1972]

I have no problem with states or school systems stating that bullying will not be tolerated, and will be appropriately punished. The problem is that zero-tolerance policies are almost always written in such a manner as to disallow anything that even the dimmest, most judgment-impaired person might regard as a violation of the policy, thus producing results such as second-grade boys being suspended for sexual harassment simply for telling a female classmate she's pretty. Zero-policy rules don't tend to allow any leeway for rational judgment. In trying to protect against assholes that won't otherwise do the right thing, they all too often force people to do something wrong and stupid in obedience to the rigid rules.I completely agree the examples you have sighted seem like they have or could happen.
But like i said bullying is hard to detect unless you have a teacher witnessing it.
I'm also not sure if this girl was or was not bullied to bring this around full circle.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I completely agree the examples you have sighted seem like they have or could happen.


The second-grade boy being suspended for sexual harassment for calling a girl "pretty" did happen in an Iowa school (Cedar Rapids, I think), due to zero tolerance sexual harassment policies written by imbiciles and including things like "commenting on another's appearance" as something not to be tolerated, apparently not realizing that there are lots of degrees of separation between statements like "you're pretty" or "I like your shoes" and comments like "Nice tits, baby."

[pariah-1972]

The second-grade boy being suspended for sexual harassment for calling a girl "pretty" did happen in an Iowa school (Cedar Rapids, I think), due to zero tolerance sexual harassment policies written by imbiciles and including things like "commenting on another's appearance" as something not to be tolerated, apparently not realizing that there are lots of degrees of separation between statements like "you're pretty" or "I like your shoes" and comments like "Nice tits, baby."Why the frick do we need sexual harassment policies against second graders in the first place?

[JeffreyWKramer]

Why the frick do we need sexual harassment policies against second graders in the first place?

Need? It's hard to argue for need in this case, of course, but when school systems implement policies about things like harassment, they are generally implemented across the board, and in a way which can frame normative gender-identity sorts of behaviors like little boys saying girls are "icky" as gender-based harassment, instead of focusing on real problems like school administrators trying to get sex from employees and horny high school kids making inappropriate and clearly sexual comments to classmates.

It's the same sort of wrong-minded thinking that frames kids drawing pictures of guns and swords as "threatening behavior."

[pariah-1972]

Need? It's hard to argue for need in this case, of course, but when school systems implement policies about things like harassment, they are generally implemented across the board, and in a way which can frame normative gender-identity sorts of behaviors like little boys saying girls are "icky" as gender-based harassment, instead of focusing on real problems like school administrators trying to get sex from employees and horny high school kids making inappropriate and clearly sexual comments to classmates.

It's the same sort of wrong-minded thinking that frames kids drawing pictures of guns and swords as "threatening behavior."When did people running the schools lose all there common sense?

[JeffreyWKramer]

When did people running the schools lose all there common sense?

When they started putting avoiding lawsuits ahead of using basic judgment? When they decided the judgment of bureaucrats can generally be trusted more than that of teachers and principals? When the "everyone is a victim" mentally permeated the schools? When it once again became fashionable to try to legislate morality?

Take your pick.

[pariah-1972]

When they started putting avoiding lawsuits ahead of using basic judgment? When they decided the judgment of bureaucrats can generally be trusted more than that of teachers and principals? When the "everyone is a victim" mentally permeated the schools? When it once again became fashionable to try to legislate morality?

Take your pick.Grrr mr Jeffrey if i get a heart attack out of this i'm blaming you :mad:

[thespianphryne]

When did people running the schools lose all there common sense?

When the people graduating from schools lost all theirs.


-Das

[Winslow]

When the people graduating from schools lost all theirs.


-Das

True.

Or a corollary: When schools start catering to unreasonable parents (the graduating students).

Most of the outrage threads regarding school policy involve parent's protesting or requiring some sort of policy change based on fear.

[pariah-1972]

I still cant believe they lost their court case :mad:
it seems pretty cut and dry to me.

[Winslow]

I still cant believe they lost their court case :mad:
it seems pretty cut and dry to me.

She probably had a crappy lawyer (or lawyers).

Cases get thrown out for legal reasons, not necessarily social reasons.

[pariah-1972]

She probably had a crappy lawyer (or lawyers).

Cases get thrown out for legal reasons, not necessarily social reasons.
How good of a lawyer do you have to be to lose this case?
according to the movie the case got thrown out because she didn't actually believe in wicca...
i would love for someone to make some sense out of that ruling.:mad:

[Winslow]

How good of a lawyer do you have to be to lose this case?
according to the movie the case got thrown out because she didn't actually believe in wicca...
i would love for someone to make some sense out of that ruling.:mad:

$10 million in damages? heh . .sounds like crappy lawyering to me.

But no one can make sense out of this unless you can find the judges ruling online somewhere and some additional facts.

[pariah-1972]

$10 million in damages? heh . .sounds like crappy lawyering to me.

But no one can make sense out of this unless you can find the judges ruling online somewhere and some additional facts.the parents in the case thought 10 million was a bit extreme, but his reasoning was that anything less than that wouldn't get there attention.

[JeffreyWKramer]

How good of a lawyer do you have to be to lose this case?
according to the movie the case got thrown out because she didn't actually believe in wicca...
i would love for someone to make some sense out of that ruling.:mad:
Well, the First Amendment freedoms of religious expression and worship are intended to protect those acting on their sincere beliefs, not those pretending to hold some belief for secondary gain.

In that regard, this ruling has some precedent in regard to the practice of Satanism in prison, of all things. In two separate rulings regarding the issue, the courts said the California prison system had to allow scumbag serial rape-murderer Richard Ramirez to have satanist trappings and literature and such in his cell, and be allowed visits from Satanist religious counselors of some sort (a pretty bizarre idea, that), because he had a long, pre-established history of stated devotion to Satanism, while some other felon, who clearly just wanted to be a rebel for purposes of disturbing other people was not granted the same worship allowance due to statements he'd made to other felons in response to the Ramirez decision which showed his petition was not an honest expression of faith, but motivated simply by his desire to be difficult and an asshole.

[pariah-1972]

Well, the First Amendment freedoms of religious expression and worship are intended to protect those acting on their sincere beliefs, not those pretending to hold some belief for secondary gain.

In that regard, this ruling has some precedent in regard to the practice of Satanism in prison, of all things. In two separate rulings regarding the issue, the courts said the California prison system had to allow scumbag serial rape-murderer Richard Ramirez to have satanist trappings and literature and such in his cell, and be allowed visits from Satanist religious counselors of some sort (a pretty bizarre idea, that), because he had a long, pre-established history of stated devotion to Satanism, while some other felon, who clearly just wanted to be a rebel for purposes of disturbing other people was not granted the same worship allowance due to statements he'd made to other felons in response to the Ramirez decision which showed his petition was not an honest expression of faith, but motivated simply by his desire to be difficult and an asshole.Hmm that does make some sense, but it then the question becomes "is this persons faith really true" and that is a very subjective question,
I personally believe that Brandi Blackbear had some interest in becoming a wicca and most likely would have converted if not for this suspension,
but then she was pressured by her parents to change her look, so it wouldn't surprise me if she lied about her interests or beliefs in wicca.
Also Some people think tv evangelists aren't honest in there faith and are putting on a show for money and attention, but of course thats just an opinion and can't be proved by the courts.

[GozertheGozarian]

Grrr mr Jeffrey if i get a heart attack out of this i'm blaming you :mad:
Just don't sue, I'm going to need him when my midlife crisis comes on.

[pariah-1972]

Just don't sue, I'm going to need him when my midlife crisis comes on.Can you have a midlife crisis at 35?
cause i think i'm already there.

[BoosterBronze]

When did people running the schools lose all there common sense?

Because schools ALWAYS lose when there is controversy. People can attack schools all they want in the media and schools can never defend themselves due to privacy laws. Principals and teachers get fired, school boards get recalled.

You have an exciting new program? A parent complains about an aspect of it? Better to cancell it than stand up for it.

A student does something constroversial? It is better to hide (and I chose that word carefully) behind a policy, often zero-tolerance, ideally implemented by the district, county, or state, than it is to use judgment.

http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=9775

An example of what happens when there is controversy. This writing teacher was fired for allowing students to use profanity in their assignments. If she hadn't been fired, 10 will get you 20 that the principal would have been fired once an ill-informed angry mob of parents decided to become outraged.

http://www.adversity.net/special/nappy_hair.htm

A fine example of an ill-informed angry mob of parents deciding to become outraged.

EDIT:
Addendum: For the record, I still think the girl being suspended or whatever for allegedly casting a spell was hecka whack.

[pariah-1972]

Because schools ALWAYS lose when there is controversy. People can attack schools all they want in the media and schools can never defend themselves due to privacy laws. Principals and teachers get fired, school boards get recalled.

You have an exciting new program? A parent complains about an aspect of it? Better to cancell it than stand up for it.

A student does something constroversial? It is better to hide (and I chose that word carefully) behind a policy, often zero-tolerance, ideally implemented by the district, county, or state, than it is to use judgment.

http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=9775

An example of what happens when there is controversy. This writing teacher was fired for allowing students to use profanity in their assignments. If she hadn't been fired, 10 will get you 20 that the principal would have been fired once an ill-informed angry mob of parents decided to become outraged.

http://www.adversity.net/special/nappy_hair.htm

A fine example of an ill-informed angry mob of parents deciding to become outraged.

EDIT:
Addendum: For the record, I still think the girl being suspended or whatever for allegedly casting a spell was hecka whack.The family may have won in the media.
but they lost the court case.
which would you have preferred?
she was also suspended for being a wiccan by the way.

[Paul McEnery]

and be allowed visits from Satanist religious counselors of some sort (a pretty bizarre idea, that),.

Why is that bizarre?

[Jeff Brady]

Can you have a midlife crisis at 35?
cause i think i'm already there.

Wait, you're thirty five? I imagined you to be much, much younger.

[pariah-1972]

Wait, you're thirty five? I imagined you to be much, much younger.Why would i have 1972 if i wasn't 35?
a lot of people online think i'm younger not sure why, i'm either very immature or it could be my bad english skills, or maybe both??
:confused:

[Jeff Brady]

Why would i have 1972 if i wasn't 35?

People are strange. Some pick random numbers because their name of choice is taken.


a lot of people online think i'm younger not sure why, i'm either very immature or it could be my bad english skills, or maybe both??
:confused:

It's both. I don't mean to rip on you at all, I'm not trying to be a jerk about this. Your "voice" is that of a 15 year old. You're not the first poster we've had who was older than the impression he'd given, and the similarities don't stop there. I don't want to get too much into it here, because of thread drift. But if you wanna talk more, my PM box is open.

[mattx110]

is it horrible of me that i read the title as "how far are schoolgirls allowed to go now?"

[pariah-1972]

is it horrible of me that i read the title as "how far are schoolgirls allowed to go now?"No you just probably have watched too much porn:p

[mattx110]

No you just probably have watched too much porn:p

mind out of the gutter, what are you, 15!?!?!?


kidding, but how old do i sound? now i'm worried... anyway, don't mean to distract too much off-topic.

although, if there was a wiccan girl when i was in high school, i'd find that exceptionally hot.

[pariah-1972]

mind out of the gutter, what are you, 15!?!?!?


kidding, but how old do i sound? now i'm worried... anyway, don't mean to distract too much off-topic.

although, if there was a wiccan girl when i was in high school, i'd find that exceptionally hot.Lol you sound like you're typical randy dude theres no age limit on that.
i don't remember meeting any Wiccans when i was in high school..
but my roomate claims to be one tho.

[lurkergurl]

None of you sound any more immature than your average guy who reads comic books and plays video games... sheesh

[mattx110]

None of you sound any more immature than your average guy who reads comic books and plays video games... sheesh

i don't play video games you stereotyping fascist!

[pariah-1972]

i don't play video games you stereotyping fascist!Hey now be nice thats my girlfriend !

[lurkergurl]

i don't play video games you stereotyping fascist!

now that's some funny stuff right there!

[pariah-1972]

now that's some funny stuff right there!Hey ! i thought you were going to sleep?

[Brian Cronin]

Let's stay on topic, please.

-Brian

[lurkergurl]

My best friend in high school was a wiccan. She also was a cheerleader and won the Miss *hometown* pageant. It was a very small community and I often wonder if people had known what would have happened to her.

[pariah-1972]

My best friend in high school was a wiccan. She also was a cheerleader and won the Miss *hometown* pageant. It was a very small community and I often wonder if people had known what would have happened to her.So she was a closet wiccan?

[lurkergurl]

Pretty much. Only her closest friends and her family knew about it.

[pariah-1972]

Pretty much. Only her closest friends and her family knew about it.Hmm well Canada seems more open minded than the bible belt area so it may not have been that big of a deal.

[mattx110]

now that's some funny stuff right there!

didn't mean to call you a fascist...

it's just, i'm very bitter, the newest video game i've played is super mario 3 on NES.

actually, i have a friend who bought me half-life, which i never played and asked him about 50 times not to, but it was my birthday, i had to take it:confused:

anyway, i'm glad your wiccan friend is pretty. although, you can't be sure she wasn't manipulating her looks with some form of magic (i've heard some creepy whispering girls discussing the power of "Covergirl", which was a form of powder, i think derived from newt tail!)

[pariah-1972]

didn't mean to call you a fascist...

it's just, i'm very bitter, the newest video game i've played is super mario 3 on NES.

actually, i have a friend who bought me half-life, which i never played and asked him about 50 times not to, but it was my birthday, i had to take it:confused:

anyway, i'm glad your wiccan friend is pretty. although, you can't be sure she wasn't manipulating her looks with some form of magic (i've heard some creepy whispering girls discussing the power of "Covergirl", which was a form of powder, i think derived from newt tail!)Half -life is goodness:D

i have number two.

[lurkergurl]

didn't mean to call you a fascist...

it's just, i'm very bitter, the newest video game i've played is super mario 3 on NES.

actually, i have a friend who bought me half-life, which i never played and asked him about 50 times not to, but it was my birthday, i had to take it:confused:

anyway, i'm glad your wiccan friend is pretty. although, you can't be sure she wasn't manipulating her looks with some form of magic (i've heard some creepy whispering girls discussing the power of "Covergirl", which was a form of powder, i think derived from newt tail!)

That's the last video game I played too :D

I imagine that some of the snootier girls in school would have thought she was casting spells in order to win over the judges. I've heard about that covergirl stuff, pure evil .... :p

Pariah, We have our own version of the bible belt not far from where I live too. We aren't all that open-minded really.

[Perry Holley]

So she was a closet wiccan?I beleive the proper expression would be, "So she's still in the broom closet?"

[pariah-1972]

I beleive the proper expression would be, "So she's still in the broom closet?"Oh my god LOL that was too funny !

[Grazzt]

My little sister is a Wiccan. I remember some guy was willing to sell me his soul (for five dollars), but changed his mind when he found out I was going to give it to her as a birthday present.

Which is the extent of the discrimination against her (that I noticed).