Darwin [Archive] - Page 3 - Comic Book Resources Forums

frog

11-11-2007, 01:01 PM

How good to see you again, sinjection! We know you love us too much to stay away!:) I'm assuming you're white, Joe. If so, as a white male, you don't have to see anything in terms of race if you don't want to. Your demographic can choose to be "above" or "remain blissfully ignorant" of such concerns. But you can always benefit - directly or indirectly - from the racism you don't have to ever acknowledge. That's whiteboy priviledge. But that would be silly. Racism hurts everyone. I'm sure Joe would choose to ignore true racism.

Oh sure. I'd put my money on Luke Cage if he were ever in a fight with Irving Forbush. But if Cage ever mixed it up with Spider-Man, it would be a different story. This isn't Larry Holmes vs Gerry Cooney. In that fight it was a matter of the best man winning the fight. In the case of Cage vs Spider-Man or The Black Panther vs Sabretooth, it's a matter of who writers and fans believe should win. Cage defeated Doom once. Many fans choose to believe that was a fluke. The Panther defeats Sabretooth, many fans claim that it was a "novelty issue" and that if such a confrontation took place elsewhere under different circumstances, then there should be no way T'Challa should ever prevail. Hudlin writes T'Chaka gaining a clear victory over Captain America and the caterwaul was immediate. As long as there exists no black male character who could ever best Thor, Hercules, Sentry, etc... then it's all good. Isn't it? Why would Luke Cage and Spiderman fight? They are on the same team. You really seem overconcerned with who gets to beat up who. That's not the healthiest of attitudes, my dear.:(

Don't presume to tell me what I should believe if it is my honest opinion. I don't work for a lot of police departments, fire departments, private companies and so forth around this nation, but I'm sure that there are many who would rather not have blacks among their employees. A poster to this board stated that as the predominant audience of comicbooks are white males, there really isn't that big of an interest in seeing black characters - specifically black male characters - represented in the genre. I've no doubt that there are many white writers and editors who work for Marvel who likely feel the same way. How many black members are in the Mighty Avengers? None. How many black X-Men are there? Precious few in a concept largely inspired by the Civil Rights Movement of black Americans.I've been in the work force for 25 years and have always found the relationships between caucasions and other ethnicities to be very harminous. Why should I believe that it is otherwise everywhere else?

Have you ever walked in a black man's daishiki? If not, then what you think about certain matters pertaining to blacks really doesn't carry a lot of weight with me. So you are saying that no one can truly have empathy for another person's problems or views? Such fatality is so very disheartening. What hope could there be for the future?:(

Darwin looks like a space alien. Because of this, it has been suggested that his character stands a better chance of "surviving". Synch was a black and beautiful male involved with a lovely woman of color. He's dead. You figure it out.

____sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X

But we are here to discuss Darwin, not Synch. We're very sorry for his demise but what does he really have to do with Darwin? Darwin is a black character who is evoking a lot of interest in this thread. Be happy, sinjection!:)

P.S. I'm awaiting your replies with great anticipation but I have to run some errands now. Please don't think I'm no longer interested in the discussion, I'll be back!

Jackob

11-11-2007, 01:06 PM

Darwin should date Rihanna or Chris Brown.

i still say him and rogue would be good together.

and if he got a duo book with prof x, they should call it....

Charles & Darwin, that would be awesome.

Joe Acro

11-11-2007, 01:08 PM

I'm assuming you're white, Joe. If so, as a white male, you don't have to see anything in terms of race if you don't want to. Your demographic can choose to be "above" or "remain blissfully ignorant" of such concerns. But you can always benefit - directly or indirectly - from the racism you don't have to ever acknowledge. That's whiteboy priviledge.I remain ignorant of some things, but I'd know racism if I saw it. Now maybe I just happen to live in a predominantly non-racist area and it's much more widespread elsewhere. And white people received racism of sorts, of which I hope I don't have to experience. But I have experienced prejudice and hurtful comments, so I do know what that's like.

Oh sure. I'd put my money on Luke Cage if he were ever in a fight with Irving Forbush. But if Cage ever mixed it up with Spider-Man, it would be a different story.I know this doesn't exactly show that Luke Cage beat Spider-Man, but in The Pulse it was Luke Cage who took down the Green Goblin, not Spider-Man (who was present).

Hudlin writes T'Chaka gaining a clear victory over Captain America and the caterwaul was immediate. As long as there exists no black male character who could ever best Thor, Hercules, Sentry, etc... then it's all good. Isn't it?As I understand it, the "caterwaul" wasn't simply that Black Panther beat Captain America. It was a fight that had already been shown, a fight Cap had won then. People weren't pleased with retconning the outcome of the fight. Bendis gets the same kind of flack for ignoring Scarlet Witch's continuity.

Don't presume to tell me what I should believe if it is my honest opinion. I don't work for a lot of police departments, fire departments, private companies and so forth around this nation, but I'm sure that there are many who would rather not have blacks among their employees.I'm not trying to tell you that what you believe is wrong. But you're treating it like it's fact and you've provided minimal evidence to support that. And since you aren't sure what people jobs such as those in law enforcement act in or think on this manner, it would probably be better to just not mention it.

then A poster to this board stated that as the predominant audience of comicbooks are white males, there really isn't that big of an interest in seeing black characters - specifically black male characters - represented in the genre.As far as I'm aware, it's not that comic book readers don't have a big interest in black characters, but that they lack interest in characters they can't relate to as well as others. Race may play a part in that, just as personality definitely does.

I don't buy their crappy books, Joe. That works fine for me.I'm just saying that that doesn't accomplish a whole lot. You keep complaining and nothing happens. Clearly what you're doing isn't that effective.

Yes they have. DC Comics' black characters possess true power and influence in their publications. The emergence of the DC Comics' black superhero and superheroine makes Marvel's treatment of their black characters seem backward by comparison.True power and influence? I'd like some examples.

Darwin looks like a space alien. Because of this, it has been suggested that his character stands a better chance of "surviving". Synch was a black and beautiful male involved with a lovely woman of color. He's dead. You figure it out.I don't think Darwin stands a better chance of surviving because of his skin color. And if we have such a simple disagreement on that aspect of the character, it probably would be best just to move past it.

Black Panther is involved in a lovely black woman. Do you expect him to die?:p

xmanson

11-11-2007, 01:10 PM

Whiteboy Privilage?

So now I should feel bad for being white?

What a fucking joke.

Bad honkey! BAD!

sinjection

11-11-2007, 01:39 PM

I know this doesn't exactly show that Luke Cage beat Spider-Man, but in The Pulse it was Luke Cage who took down the Green Goblin, not Spider-Man (who was present).

All that might show, Joe, is Spider-Man saying to Cage, "C'mere boy. Why don't you handle my light work. I've got better things to do." Until I see a black male character kicking Thor's a$$, kicking Hercules' a$$, kicking the Hulk's green a$$, kicking Namor's a$$ .... who did I leave out? :) My point stands as stated.

As I understand it, the "caterwaul" wasn't simply that Black Panther beat Captain America. It was a fight that had already been shown, a fight Cap had won then.

If you're referring to the "First Contact" issue written by Priest, then Captain America did not win that fight. The fight ended in a draw and even then, it was T'Chaka who ALWAYS had the upper hand during their encounter. I suppose many white fans didn't like the way Priest portrayed that incident either.

And since you aren't sure what people jobs such as those in law enforcement act in or think on this manner, it would probably be better to just not mention it.

Since you likely choose to remain ignorant of such things, I won't wast my time or board space enlightening you on how white racists - both overt and covert - behave in the real world, Joe.

As far as I'm aware, it's not that comic book readers don't have a big interest in black characters, but that they lack interest in characters they can't relate to as well as others. Race may play a part in that, just as personality definitely does.

Exactly. Many white male readers of comicbooks might claim to be able to relate to black characters. Whether that's true or not, I can't say. I do know that white football fans are generally more comfortable with a team having a white QB who is the "leader of the team" and black RB who follow instructions, score touchdowns, be entertaining, but when it's all said and done, the white QB should be the game MVP. The same dynamic works in comicbooks. David Goyer said that when he first pitched his idea for the Blade movies to New Line Entertainment, they tried to persuade Goyer to recreate Blade as a white man and cast a white man in the starring role as Blade. Goyer refused. This is why today, I am a fan of David Goyer in anything and everything he does.

I'm just saying that that doesn't accomplish a whole lot. You keep complaining and nothing happens. Clearly what you're doing isn't that effective.

I can't express my opinon on a message board, Joe? Why not? If I thought it could work and there were enough black people who actually gave a damn, I might be inclined to take action against this x-franchise and hit them where it hurts. But I'm quite content with my practice of not buying their books and even then, letting it be known to whatever x-book creator who might read these posts, that even though I don't buy their books, I still think their books are crap.

True power and influence? I'd like some examples.

John Stewart the Green Lantern who in many ways, has become more widely known and accepted as the Green Lantern than Hal Jordan. A black man will be portraying the Green Lantern in the upcoming live action movie Justice League. Firestorm - a character of immense power - is a black man. Black Lightning used to derive his power from an artificial source. Now, he generates his powers naturally. DC Comics is far superior to Marvel when it comes to the development of their black characters...in my always humble opinion, of course.

I don't think Darwin stands a better chance of surviving because of his skin color. And if we have such a simple disagreement on that aspect of the character, it probably would be best just to move past it.

Moving "past it" would be to ignore the very premise of this thread, Joe. You can't choose to ignore that.

Black Panther is involved in a lovely black woman. Do you expect him to die?:p

Oh. And now Storm is a black woman again, eh? Well Joe, I have read comments from some posters suggesting they'd very much like to see T'Challa killed off so that Ororo could return to the comparatively lowly position of "X-Man leader" from her present position as Queen of Almighty Wakanda.

____sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X

sinjection

11-11-2007, 01:48 PM

sinjection, I did read your earlier post, but Joe Acro already answered most of the points you brought up... better than I would have.

I'm sure Joe appreciates your kind assessment of his responses to my points.

I apologise for the grand generalisation (generalisation[!]) I made in that post about 'modern societies'.

Apology isn't necessary. We're having a conversation, not a confrontation.

The 'white' or 'European' beauty standard is NOT universal. The popularity of Iman... Naomi Campbell... DESTROYS that standard.

Not necessarily. I dont' believe I've ever seen Iman or Naomi Campbell wearing their hair naturally in a 'fro hairstyle.

It's sad that there are employers who would turn applicants because of their hair, but I believe that most employers aren't like that (of course, it all depends on situation, location, personality, etc.). African American women should protest against this whenever they encounter it. Not saying that that doesn't already happen, but you should never change yourself just to meet someone else's requirements.

"Sad", yes. But it's true in any case. And if a black woman would like to work for certain companies, then she'd better perm and straighten that hair, unless she works for a business that allows braids. Black Americans have had to change to meet white requirements for centuries. Still, there are many aspects of black culture where change is simply not an option. And here, many white Americans will complain that black Americans are not conforming to the society, segregating themselves and resisting assimilation.

As I mentioned earlier. I wouldn't have a problem with Darwin if black and black/hispanic characters were better represented. I don't have that big of a problem with Storm's appearance. I never had. She looks absolutely scrumptious with her hair in an Afro style, but I can live with her as she is. I'm saying that Magneto X makes outstanding points and that I have yet to see any posted opinion to alter that opinion.

____sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X

Tobias March

11-11-2007, 01:48 PM

Oh. And now Storm is a black woman again, eh? Well Joe, I have read comments from some posters suggesting they'd very much like to see T'Challa killed off so that Ororo could return to the comparatively lowly position of "X-Man leader" from her present position as Queen of Almighty Wakanda.

____sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X

Two points, first X-fans want Ororo back because they're X-Fans. Maybe they don't like Hudlin's writing, but lest we forget she is also a member of the Fantastic Four under Dwayne's pen. So there's that to consider.

Secondly Cage is the leader of the New Avengers, in opposition to Tony 'The Man' Stark's Mighty team. He is very much to the front of the conflict in the MU and gets to order Spidey around as he is leader and not doing Parker's light work.

Not to mention that Wakanda's a fictional place invented by a Jewish man by the name of Jacob Kurtzberg.

RoguishGurl

11-11-2007, 01:53 PM

I wonder if they based Darwin off of Wentworth Miller. He could so play Darwin in a movie.

http://images.eonline.com/eol_images/Profiles/20060922/244.miller.wentworth.091906.jpg

Joe Acro

11-11-2007, 02:03 PM

All that might show, Joe, is Spider-Man saying to Cage, "C'mere boy. Why don't you handle my light work.That wasn't the case at all. Spider-Man was losing and Green Goblin almost go away. Lukle Cage saved the day where Spider-Man couldn't.:)

Until I see a black male character kicking Thor's a$$, kicking Hercules' a$$, kicking the Hulk's green a$$, kicking Namor's a$$ .... who did I leave out? :) My point stands as stated.Well, Thor's lost to the Wrecking Crew before, which has a black man on it. But he doesn't lend himself well to fighting black enemies as he comes from a world of Scandinavian mythology. Hulk fights monsters, mainly, which also doesn't help that idea. Namor's probably your best bet since he does fight surface-worlders, but even then he has a tendency to win. He's taken the best of the FF, defeated Daredevil, and various other heroes. It's not likely he'd lose one-on-one.

But that's not really a discussion for this thread, as it deviates from the race and Darwin discussion and leans closer to Rumbles and Rogues building.

I suppose many white fans didn't like the way Priest portrayed that incident either.I wouldn't make that assumption. The comments I've seen when this has been brought up before have been positive toward that sequence.

I do know that white football fans are generally more comfortable with a team having a white QB who is the "leader of the team" and black RB who follow instructions, score touchdowns, be entertaining, but when it's all said and done, the white QB should be the game MVP.You do? I'd like to know how. I remember people praising Michael Vick, for one, before his dog-fighting scandal.

The same dynamic works in comicbooks. David Goyer said that when he first pitched his idea for the Blade movies to New Line Entertainment, they tried to persuade Goyer to recreate Blade as a white man and cast a white man in the starring role as Blade. Goyer refused. This is why today, I am a fan of David Goyer in anything and everything he does.You say it applies to comics and then don't provide a comic book example. You discuss a Blade movie.

I can't express my opinon on a message board, Joe? Why not? If I thought it could work and there were enough black people who actually gave a damn, I might be inclined to take action against this x-franchise and hit them where it hurts. But I'm quite content with my practice of not buying their books and even then, letting it be known to whatever x-book creator who might read these posts, that even though I don't buy their books, I still think their books are crap.You can express your opinion all you want. That's fine. And as long as you're satisfied with what you're doing, whether or not it gets the desired outcome, then I guess there's no need for you to do anything else.

John Stewart the Green Lantern who in many ways, has become more widely known and accepted as the Green Lantern than Hal Jordan. A black man will be portraying the Green Lantern in the upcoming live action movie Justice League. Firestorm - a character of immense power - is a black man. Black Lightning used to derive his power from an artificial source. Now, he generates his powers naturally. DC Comics is far superior to Marvel when it comes to the development of their black characters...in my always humble opinion, of course.
John Stewart is only more widely known because of the TV show. Something similar could be said for well-known Marvel characters like Blade. Firestorm was white. And although the current Firestorm may be powerful, he's not widely liked nor treated as particularly powerful, as his recent Justice League appearance will attest. And Black Lightning was and pretty much continues to be a background character in the same title. That's how I see things.

But again, that's a discussion that probably doesn't belong in this thread, so I'll just leave it at that.

Moving "past it" would be to ignore the very premise of this thread, Joe. You can't choose to ignore that.I wasn't trying to ignore the premise of the thread. I was just trying to move past that one stickling argument. You think his appearance will help him stay around longer. I think otherwise. It's that simple.

Oh. And now Storm is a black woman again, eh?.I don't believe I said otherwise.

Jackob

11-11-2007, 02:09 PM

Joe Acro

11-11-2007, 02:13 PM

darwin is one of the potentially most powerful characters in the MU, i dont see why him not looking like a protype black man is problem, when another vastly powered character the hulk is green or gray.
Well, it's really not fair to compare Darwin to any of the early mainstays of the Marvel universe, as it was a different time with different standards. I do think he's one of the more powerful characters Marvel has created recently, though. And his power isn't clearcut or even predictable, which makes him seem less powerful (to me) than he actually is.

Jackob

11-11-2007, 02:18 PM

Well, it's really not fair to compare Darwin to any of the early mainstays of the Marvel universe, as it was a different time with different standards. I do think he's one of the more powerful characters Marvel has created recently, though. And his power isn't clearcut or even predictable, which makes him seem less powerful (to me) than he actually is.

but he has the potential to be so if developed right.

Fatguy

11-11-2007, 02:58 PM

AI do know that white football fans are generally more comfortable with a team having a white QB who is the "leader of the team" and black RB who follow instructions, score touchdowns, be entertaining, but when it's all said and done, the white QB should be the game MVP.

You sure do make a lot of assumptions.

I know I dont remember taking part in a "what race do you prefer to throw a football?" survey, and I've never seen those survey results.

tipo4thesoul

11-11-2007, 03:10 PM

Sinjection just needs to find something else to do with his/her time. There are tons of other misdeeds that take place in the world that are directed at black people. Picking apart little things such as a character's skin color in a comic book isn't going to bring about change in society. It is his mutant trait. Just like blink is pink and nightcrawler is blueish. Take your views of racial equiality and use them to better our people where it really matter, not a comic book.

Magneto X

11-11-2007, 03:24 PM

The next generation will still know bigotry and the horrible things that come from that bigotry like the ones you mention above. But I hope that generation will look back on our time and shake their heads at what was WRONG with the previous generation, while still keeping in mind everything that has been achieved/corrected in the past and is still being achieved in the present. All the victories, be they ever so little. And that generation, in turn, will have their own victories and defeats. I'm a hopeless optimist.

I'm aware that I used a gigantic generalisation in my above post -I know that neither the world nor America are uniform; that discrimination, racism, sexism occurs throughout the world in various degrees and various forms even in the most 'tolerant' and 'liberal' of places. It's far from perfect or even ideal. It needs work, people need to act to change it. And I guess I don't quite know where you're coming from, not living in America myself AND never having been the victim of racism. No one judges me on colour and I sometimes forget what a privilege that is.

I'm curious to know whether you plan to personally address Marvel on this issue. If this is what you truly believe must change now, you should go for it.

You could even send Marvel a letter concerning Darwin, explaining that you are worried about how he has been depicted. He is appearing after Messiah CompleX, so there is still time.

I'd like to. One worry I had was I'd get a response like a lot of those here (he's a mutant and Beast is blue, Polaris has green hair, so my complaint must be nonsense, plus nobody else is complaining). Another concern is who would be the best person to address it to.

On topic: how DO you want Armando to look, Magneto X? Should he keep his unusual eyes and the shape of his head?

Totally cool with that. I think he looks cool when he's in school and last sees his mom. Bald, big eyes, and long arms (all of which might be useful adaptations). Just not white-ified, which isn't useful, especially given that he's the only mixed race or Puerto Rican or (a lot of the time) black X-Man we have right now.

Brian M.

11-11-2007, 04:00 PM

You sure do make a lot of assumptions.

I know I dont remember taking part in a "what race do you prefer to throw a football?" survey, and I've never seen those survey results.

Yea...it's all about race. I'm gonna picket the NBA soon.

Brian M.

11-11-2007, 04:02 PM

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a48/ddday/powder1.jpg

It's Darwin!!!!

Jackob

11-11-2007, 04:15 PM

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a48/ddday/powder1.jpg

It's Darwin!!!!

that is silly ive never seen darwin wear a hat:rolleyes:

Brian M.

11-11-2007, 04:16 PM

that is silly ive never seen darwin wear a hat:rolleyes:

He adapted. It was cold.

worstblogever

11-11-2007, 04:42 PM

All that might show, Joe, is Spider-Man saying to Cage, "C'mere boy. Why don't you handle my light work. I've got better things to do." Until I see a black male character kicking Thor's a$$, kicking Hercules' a$$, kicking the Hulk's green a$$, kicking Namor's a$$ .... who did I leave out? :) My point stands as stated.
____sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X

All the powerful white characters you're listing that you want a black character to beat? They're all heroes. You want a black hero to beat up a white hero to prove something. You don't care about morals when you're reading, you want black characters to beat white.

Of course, if it were a black villain, then you'd be complaining about how strong black characters are always portrayed as villains.

And your almighty Hudlin already wrote the Storm/Black Panther honeymoon to feature T'Challa beat, issue by issue...

Black Panther #19- Dr. Doom.
Black Panther #20- Most of the Inhumans
Black Panther #21- Doesn't beat Namor, but humbles him by making the Sub-Mariner ask him for help.
Black Panther #22- Outsmarts Tony Stark in international diplomacy
Black Panther #24- Defeats Captain America in a sparring match.
Black Panther #25- Storm short-circuits the brain of the Thor clone, making him weak enough for Hercules to finish off.

That was plenty of instances of giving you most of your black characters taking out white characters. That was during Civil War. But Luke Cage keeps beating white villains up over in New Avengers. Powerful ones at that, whenever he gets the chance. Blade kills primarily white highly powered vampires. Storm's taken out how many powerful threats through the years? Hell, Storm even was wielding the power of Thor at one point while her powers were gone, including an Uru hammer. Meaning, she's worthy.

What you're clamoring for as never being there? It's there. But you won't be satisfied until Darwin shows up, and hands Magneto, Wolverine, Professor X, and every white mutant their own hearts on a platter.

Jackob

11-11-2007, 04:46 PM

does anyone know if or when dariwn is supposed to show up in MC?

worstblogever

11-11-2007, 04:58 PM

does anyone know if or when dariwn is supposed to show up in MC?

No specifics yet. (As of 11/11)

sinjection

11-11-2007, 09:11 PM

Well, Thor's lost to the Wrecking Crew before, which has a black man on it.

Years ago in an issue of THOR - ably illustrated by Adam Kubert, which explains why I purchased the issue in the first place - the character Gladiator of the Imperial Guard, was sent from the future by a character whose name escapes me now, but who is usually depicted as being villainous, to destroy Thor before his period of "The Reigning" brings the world and the universe to ruin. The purple-skinned Gladiator put a shallacking on Thor. He was eventually beaten in a multiple-issue confrontation, but he put Thor through much pain. Meanwhile, the Enchantress was also on earth and for some inexplicable reason, had taken on the guise of a black female EMT. Of course, that black female EMT had a thing for white Donald Blake, so she was all over him: kissing him and what not. When a story is written that features a black-skinned male character putting a shellacking on Thor and a purple-skinned female character slobbering all over Donald Blake, then there is the SLIGHT chance, I might pick that issue up :) Otherwise, I want to see more black male characters wielding true power which enables them to acquit themselves well, if not totally defeat Marvel's most powerful white characters - hero or foe, it matters not to me.

And Thor has fought foes who weren't necessarily of Scandanavian origin. He's also fought other heroes. He's fought the Hulk on more than one occassion. In fact, Thor has fought Hercules, a diety of ancient Greek Mythology, a hero and a close friend. And I can't see Bishop beating the brains out of cyclops every once in a while...or at least once? What's up with that?

But that's not really a discussion for this thread, as it deviates from the race and Darwin discussion and leans closer to Rumbles and Rogues building.

And I've weighed in on the Darwin issue. If black and black/hispanic characters were better represented in the x-franchise and in Marvel Comics, had there not been so many fine black mutant characters depowered, had one excellent and attractive, unmistakably black American male character been allowed to survive instead of slaughtered, if those black characters were allowed to interact with each other independent of white characters - something which has rarely happened, if ever - and when if black characters are able to establish meaningful relationships with each other, then I'd still be reading x-publications and wouldn't have much of a problem with a character like Darwin. As we both know, this is not the case.

I wouldn't make that assumption. The comments I've seen when this has been brought up before have been positive toward that sequence.

You always seem to see what you want to see and ignore what you'd rather not see, although what you're ignoring is a truthful situation or circumstance. That looks like something another poster alluded to earlier, looking through the world through your own rose-colored specs.

You do? I'd like to know how. I remember people praising Michael Vick, for one, before his dog-fighting scandal.

And I'm sure you don't remember what Rush Limbaugh said about Donovan McNabb, other black QB in the NFL and how many white fans agreed with what Limbaugh had to say. C'mon, man. You can't kid a kidder.

You say it applies to comics and then don't provide a comic book example. You discuss a Blade movie.

Blade had his origins in the comicbooks. When David Goyer wanted to adapt that comicbook character for the movies, New Line Entertainment attempted to make Goyer recreate Blade as a white man. You're being purposely obtuse now, Joe. New Line Entertainment wanted Blade to be a white man, not a black man because as another poster alluded to, white males aren't necessarily interested in the adventures of heroic black males and those execs at New Line Entertainment knew this to be a fact.

You can express your opinion all you want. That's fine. And as long as you're satisfied with what you're doing, whether or not it gets the desired outcome, then I guess there's no need for you to do anything else.

It makes me feel so much better to have your approval, Joe :rolleyes:

John Stewart is only more widely known because of the TV show.

Hal Jordan appeared on a television program as well. It makes no difference. Today, in the opinion of a great many fans out there, John Stewart is the Green Lantern.

Something similar could be said for well-known Marvel characters like Blade.

Not at all, Joe. Blade was created as a black character from the get-go. New Line Entertainment tried to get Goyer to make Blade a white guy, but Goyer had more integrity than to submit to such stupidity. Therefore, Blade became a very popular movie property and should be a very successful comicbook character. But wait, Marvel only has one popular black comicbook character - a female who many white fans don't recognize as being black at all. Blade suffers from what I've already alluded to, white male readers are not interested in reading stories about powerful black males. It irks many white males when they see black males dominating in this nation's most popular athletic endeavors.

Firestorm was white.

Well he ain't white now, Joe.

And although the current Firestorm may be powerful, he's not widely liked nor treated as particularly powerful, as his recent Justice League appearance will attest.

See my comment about white males not being particularly interested in the exploits of powerful black male characters, Joe.

____sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X

sinjection

11-11-2007, 09:12 PM

I wonder if they based Darwin off of Wentworth Miller. He could so play Darwin in a movie.

http://images.eonline.com/eol_images/Profiles/20060922/244.miller.wentworth.091906.jpg

Not likely. That boy looks wierd, but he is unmistakably human.

Darwin looks like he is from the Andromeda Galaxy.

____sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X

Brian M.

11-11-2007, 09:12 PM

This joke isn't even funny anymore. All I hear is freaking crickets. Someone get the cain, get'm off stage.

Brian M.

11-11-2007, 09:13 PM

Not likely. That boy looks wierd, but he is unmistakably human.

Darwin looks like he is from the Andromeda Galaxy.

____sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X

He's got that skin disease. WhitePrivilagitis.

worstblogever

11-11-2007, 09:18 PM

And I can't see Bishop beating the brains out of cyclops every once in a while...or at least once? What's up with that?

____sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X

Again, you are asking for a black hero to beat up a white hero. Which has nothing to do with Darwin, per se. But, I'll address your desire to see black supremacy in Marvel. Bishop, with the government's blessing, was putting the screws to Cyclops and four of the original five X-Men in X-Men:Civil War, on a squad with Micromax, Sabra, and others. Johnny Dee possessed Cyclops to take the first shot at Bishop, who was getting the better of Scott, until they had to work together to save the 198. So, if you actually read a non-Hudlin written comic, you would have gotten to see Cyclops being whupped by Bishop, and then have to work with him to channel energy to save virtually all the remaining mutants.

What's up with that... is Cyclops and Bishop are both heroes. In spite of being of different races. Wrap your head around that, genius.

Jackob

11-11-2007, 09:32 PM

Not likely. That boy looks wierd, but he is unmistakably human.

Darwin looks like he is from the Andromeda Galaxy.

____sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X

i agree kelsey grammer shouldnt have played beast, because he is not blue, what are they geting at:rolleyes:

and what is wrong with don blake dating a black girl?

and you say that there is no prominent black male characters, then you bring up bishop. he is the character you have been asking for powerful fights cyke not deformed he is your perfect guy.
darwin is his own character and in deadly genis it he was gray in every sceen but the flash back, darwin has been gray from the start.

Brian M.

11-11-2007, 09:35 PM

http://image.comicvine.com/uploads/item/3000/2157/185188-cable_400.jpg

worstblogever

11-11-2007, 09:47 PM

Jackob

11-11-2007, 09:50 PM

http://image.comicvine.com/uploads/item/3000/2157/185188-cable_400.jpg

now to get a good idea about who is tougher cage or cyke, they should have their kids fight.
danniel "skrull?" cage Vs Cable

battle of the century... nay mellenium!

Jackob

11-11-2007, 09:52 PM

On another note... can we talk about Darwin? If he factors into Messiah CompleX, what will his role be? Is he going to be part of the team that rescues Rogue? Will he take on the Purifiers, the Marauders, or rescue the baby? What part of the plan best suits his abilities?

i think a good way of using him is to get him captured by the purifiers and have him bust out and break people free (rictor?)

and if there is a split i think he will go with chuck.

frog

11-11-2007, 09:53 PM

It's always a lovely thing to see your name pop up, sinjection, yet you still won't reply to me. It's not as scary as it seems, I promise that no one has actually died during a debate with me.:D
Years ago in an issue of THOR - ably illustrated by Adam Kubert, which explains why I purchased the issue in the first place - the character Gladiator of the Imperial Guard, was sent from the future by a character whose name escapes me now, but who is usually depicted as being villainous, to destroy Thor before his period of "The Reigning" brings the world and the universe to ruin. The purple-skinned Gladiator put a shallacking on Thor. He was eventually beaten in a multiple-issue confrontation, but he put Thor through much pain. Meanwhile, the Enchantress was also on earth and for some inexplicable reason, had taken on the guise of a black female EMT. Of course, that black female EMT had a thing for white Donald Blake, so she was all over him: kissing him and what not. When a story is written that features a black-skinned male character putting a shellacking on Thor and a purple-skinned female character slobbering all over Donald Blake, then there is the SLIGHT chance, I might pick that issue up Otherwise, I want to see more black male characters wielding true power which enables them to acquit themselves well, if not totally defeat Marvel's most powerful white characters - hero or foe, it matters not to me.This lust for violence is so disturbing, sinjection. You might make baby Jesus, Ghandi and Martin Luther King Jr. cry.:(

And I've weighed in on the Darwin issue. If black and black/hispanic characters were better represented in the x-franchise and in Marvel Comics, had there not been so many fine black mutant characters depowered, had one excellent and attractive, unmistakably black American male character been allowed to survive instead of slaughtered, if those black characters were allowed to interact with each other independent of white characters - something which has rarely happened, if ever - and when if black characters are able to establish meaningful relationships with each other, then I'd still be reading x-publications and wouldn't have much of a problem with a character like Darwin. As we both know, this is not the case.But why oh why do you insist black characters must have so little to do with white characters? How much better when they all act and work together and share meaningful relationships and love!

You always seem to see what you want to see and ignore what you'd rather not see, although what you're ignoring is a truthful situation or circumstance. That looks like something another poster alluded to earlier, looking through the world through your own rose-colored specs. But its best to look on the bright side once in a while, sinjection! It keeps us from becoming so cynical and bitter, and when we expect good things from others they are more likely to oblige!

And I'm sure you don't remember what Rush Limbaugh said about Donovan McNabb, other black QB in the NFL and how many white fans agreed with what Limbaugh had to say. C'mon, man. You can't kid a kidder.Dear sinjection, reasonable people only pay as much attention to Rush Limbaugh as they do to Ann Coulter and Cynthia McKinney.

Blade had his origins in the comicbooks. When David Goyer wanted to adapt that comicbook character for the movies, New Line Entertainment attempted to make Goyer recreate Blade as a white man. You're being purposely obtuse now, Joe. New Line Entertainment wanted Blade to be a white man, not a black man because as another poster alluded to, white males aren't necessarily interested in the adventures of heroic black males and those execs at New Line Entertainment knew this to be a fact.But sinjection, I could just swear that I recall Blade being a black man in the movie. How on earth did that happen?

It makes me feel so much better to have your approval, Joe :rolleyes: That so nice. We'd like for you to approve of us too.

Not at all, Joe. Blade was created as a black character from the get-go. New Line Entertainment tried to get Goyer to make Blade a white guy, but Goyer had more integrity than to submit to such stupidity. Therefore, Blade became a very popular movie property and should be a very successful comicbook character. But wait, Marvel only has one popular black comicbook character - a female who many white fans don't recognize as being black at all. Blade suffers from what I've already alluded to, white male readers are not interested in reading stories about powerful black males. It irks many white males when they see black males dominating in this nation's most popular athletic endeavors.Sinjection, dear, my feeble female mind just can't follow your reasoning here. Blade is a successful movie property because he's black but he's not a successful comic character because he's black?

See my comment about white males not being particularly interested in the exploits of powerful black male characters, Joe.

____sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X

We've seen the comments, but I was always taught to back my statements up with proof. Perhaps we should poll all the white males in the world and make certain? And by the way, why don't females count? Most of us have learned to read in today's day and age, believe it or not.

Once again I await your replies with bated breath.:)

frog

11-11-2007, 09:54 PM

Not likely. That boy looks wierd, but he is unmistakably human.

Darwin looks like he is from the Andromeda Galaxy.

____sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X

Poor poor Darwin. Why must you insult your brother so?:(

worstblogever

11-11-2007, 09:57 PM

Once again I await your replies with bated breath.:)

Yeah, but that would mean we're letting the Darwin thread turn into the argue against black supremacy in comics thread. I'd rather talk about Darwin any day.

Would you say Darwin has the most potential of any new created X-character in the past 5 years?

Gene M.

11-11-2007, 10:00 PM

How is Thor relevant to a discussion about Darwin?

frog

11-11-2007, 10:00 PM

Yeah, but that would mean we're letting the Darwin thread turn into the argue against black supremacy in comics thread. I'd rather talk about Darwin any day.

Would you say Darwin has the most potential of any new created X-character in the past 5 years?

Okay, but it really hurts my feelings when he snubs me so . . . Do you think it's because I'm white or do you think he suspects I might be ugly and therefore not worthy of consideration?:confused:

Darwin has a lot of potential, because he seems to have an almost limitless ability. It is different than most because it is defensive rather than offensive, but that entirely suits his nature. I feel more we will see more of him because the writers should find many ways to use his power.

Jackob

11-11-2007, 10:02 PM

frog

11-11-2007, 10:05 PM

How is Thor relevant to a discussion about Darwin?

Well, Thor is . . .

um,

let's see,

I give up!:D

Jackob

11-11-2007, 10:13 PM

Well, Thor is . . .

um,

let's see,

I give up!:D

i know they are both awsome

worstblogever

11-11-2007, 10:16 PM

frog

11-11-2007, 10:18 PM

Let's try to merge the off topic to the actual thread topic...

How would Darwin's power work against Thor, and his mystic Uru hammer Mjolinor? There's the might of Thor, the hammer's beatdowns, the teleporting potential, and the lightning strikes to consider, here.

Would Darwin turn into rubber to prevent lightning damage, for example...

He might just do what he did when faced with the Hulk and go elsewhere!

Hey, sometimes discretion is the better part of valour!

worstblogever

11-11-2007, 10:20 PM

He might just do what he did when faced with the Hulk and go elsewhere!

Hey, sometimes discretion is the better part of valour!

So then, by logic, if Thor tried to make him go elsewhere by teleporting him with the hammer... he'd evolve to stay put?

Jackob

11-11-2007, 10:22 PM

Let's try to merge the off topic to the actual thread topic...

How would Darwin's power work against Thor, and his mystic Uru hammer Mjolinor? There's the might of Thor, the hammer's beatdowns, the teleporting potential, and the lightning strikes to consider, here.

Would Darwin turn into rubber to prevent lightning damage, for example...

i think that darwin would survive a thor battle as long as he didnt go super heavy on magic. magic always beats science, unless darwin evolved magic for himself.

Flâneur

11-11-2007, 10:23 PM

So then, by logic, if Thor tried to make him go elsewhere by teleporting him with the hammer... he'd evolve to stay put?

Well I'm not sure he would react to magic since it's in a whole other zone, he'd adapt to the repercussions though ... so wherever Thor sent him he'd adapt to a form best equipped to survive there. However, if we consider that both Hulk and Ms. Marvel have the biology to resist magic, he might simply become immune to mjolnir.

Which makes me wonder ... what if Thor sent Darwin to the White Hot Room? Would he evolve into a Phoenix Corps member so as to be best suited to his environment?

worstblogever

11-11-2007, 10:28 PM

Which makes me wonder ... what if Thor sent Darwin to the White Hot Room? Would he evolve into a Phoenix Corps member so as to be best suited to his environment?

Or, as someone who was rescued from confinement in space, would he empathise and be the person who brings back Jean?

Jackob

11-11-2007, 10:31 PM

i still wonder how an island almost killed him, it seems like he would have teleported home or some thing.
but i guess he evolved to try to save the lot.

Flâneur

11-11-2007, 10:32 PM

Or, as someone who was rescued from confinement in space, would he empathise and be the person who brings back Jean?

Well considering Phoenix Jean is dangerous to the health ... wouldn't his powers stop him from doing that? Which causes me to consider another point - would Darwin's powers adapt so as to make him unsuited for (and incidentally prevent) actions which risk his life?

frog

11-11-2007, 10:34 PM

i still wonder how an island almost killed him, it seems like he would have teleported home or some thing.
but i guess he evolved to try to save the lot.

Perhaps his powers got stronger. That is a interesting point you have.

worstblogever

11-11-2007, 10:38 PM

i still wonder how an island almost killed him, it seems like he would have teleported home or some thing.
but i guess he evolved to try to save the lot.

Yeah, he seemed to try and save Vulcan... which is the worst thing Darwin's ever used his powers for, hands down. If Darwin was a selfish character, he'd be a lot better off than on a team.

Pro

11-12-2007, 03:24 AM

i still wonder how an island almost killed him, it seems like he would have teleported home or some thing. but i guess he evolved to try to save the lot.

Krakoa drained all mutant powers slowly from those on its surface, including Darwin's it seems. He didn't adapt to being powerdrained enough to save all of them. But the island didn't exactly kill him either. What was left of his power managed to save both him and Vulcan.

KJ_81

11-12-2007, 03:37 AM

This thread has become truly disgusting. I'm seeing racism, and it's not of the normal variety. There's discussion, and then there's hatred, and I know which I'm seeing in this thread.
Darwin is a good character. So is Bishop. So are many other 'black' characters. Should there be more? Yes. Is it hard for ANY new characters to stick these days? Yes. Does that make it more difficult? Of course. Should they keep trying? Of course.
I'd love to see Cecilia Reyes back. She was a great character.

Pro

11-12-2007, 04:02 AM

ably illustrated by Adam Kubert, which explains why I purchased the issue in the first place

But Adam Kubert is white, so he's a racist like all white people, Why buy a comic from a white guy? So what if he's a good artist, he's a racist because he's white.

And I can't see Bishop beating the brains out of cyclops every once in a while...or at least once? What's up with that?

Because a black man beating up a white man just because they have different skincolors doesn't make a very good story.

I'm sure you don't remember what Rush Limbaugh said about Donovan McNabb

Again if you want to be taken seriously you need to come up with statistics, not singular individuals. Nobody is denying there aren't racists among white people, just as you make very clear with your illthought through bullshit remarks there are racists among black people.

white male readers are not interested in reading stories about powerful black males.

Statistics.

It irks many white males when they see black males dominating in this nation's most popular athletic endeavors.

STATISTICS.

sinjection

11-12-2007, 04:24 AM

A quick scanning of this thread reveals that at least two posters have admitted that they had no idea that Darwin was NOT a white character.

1) Fatguy 2) Pariah

Darwin who - as Magneto X has revealed - was brown-skinned at one time, has "whitened" to an astonishing degree, a phenomenon that even Fatguy (I believe it was Fatguy), described as being "lame".

Here is a quote from an interview which appeared in the June 2006 issue of WIZARD magazine in which the "New Uncanny X-Men" were being discussed":

On his X-team...

I like every character that I've got on my team. I think I have three WASPs [Havoc, Polaris and Marvel Girl], a German [Nightcrawler], a Native American [Warpath] and one other character I'm not allowed to talk about yet. __ Ed Brubaker

So, it would appear that this writer felt perfectly fine writing a team of mutants that did NOT have any black mutants or mutants of color - save for a Native American, and I'm not certain they consider themselves to be "people of color" or not.

This "one other character I'm not allowed to talk about yet" could have been anyone. It could be speculated that the character might have been Darwin. If so, how might Brubaker have classified his national/ethnic origin. As a black American/Puerto Rican....pasty-colored freak who when x-fans look at him, they won't freak out because they won't immediately discern the fact that Darwin is black, thereby ruining my perfect team of 3 WASPs, 1 German and one Native American?

And Anarchist....an arrogant, conceited, "Dennis Rodman" type, eh?

Hmmmm. Interesting though about what makes a perfect team racially-speaking, for at least one writer. Who says people are wasting their time reading and contributing to this fine thread? :)

____sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X

Pach!

11-12-2007, 04:34 AM

Darwin was white for one panel. He hasn't been "changed" to get all those white comic book fans to read the books. He was created that color,which isn't close to looking caucasian

sinjection

11-12-2007, 04:41 AM

This thread has become truly disgusting. I'm seeing racism, and it's not of the normal variety.

Well, if you're seeing those things, I can say with a certainty, that you aren't seeing those things in my posts, or any of the posts which could be construed as being supportive of the position taken by the poster Magneto X.

Darwin is a good character.

A character who is supposed to be a male of Puerto Rican/black American descent, but a character who at least two posters participating in this thread admitted to having no idea that he wasn't white. Which is one of the things Magneto X indicated as being disappointing about this character.

So is Bishop.

Well, Bishop....it depends upon who you ask. Some people say that he is just a "black-colored" Australian Aboriginine and as such, really isn't "black" as are those black people of African descent. Storm - although being of African descent - is often held to be according to some, a character who is "beyond race". To those individuals, Storm isn't "black", but a mish-mash of every racial and ethnic grouping on the planet. Synch was a fine black American male mutant. He was a good character. Too good. Too black. That combination got Synch "too dead".

So are many other 'black' characters. Should there be more? Yes.

Damned straight there should be more BLACK characters - especially in a book which owes its very existence to the inspiration taken from the creator's observance of the Civil Rights Struggle of the magnificent black American and two of their legendary Champions; Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. and Malcolm X.

Is it hard for ANY new characters to stick these days? Yes.

Well now, according to at least one participant to this thread, because Darwin doesn't look like a run-of-the-mill handsome black American/Puerto Rican male, but rather like a refugee from Planet X, his chances of survival in the Marvel X-universe - a universe that has proven itself decidedly hostile to the black, male mutant...and at least one normal human black male - see "She Lies With The Angels" - are excellent.

I'd love to see Cecilia Reyes back. She was a great character.

If they bring that lovely sista back only to have her being slobbered on by that blue bigfoot some more, they should just leave her dead. Being dead is a more merciful fate than living through a romance with a "manimal" and bearing its spawn.

____sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X

Tre Styles

11-12-2007, 04:45 AM

Back to the original post, because I don't have the time nor the patience to go into his racial origins or discussions. He's the MJ(ackson) of comics ok? sheesh. ;)
Anyways, Darwin's power should allow him to be reactive and adaptive as the situation calls for it. There should be some lag time or something that has some element of danger to it for him, less he does become, as Mag X stated, a deus ex machina....hmm, here's a thought: he should play, if they choose to use his powers right, a crucial element in bringing back mutant life. Could Darwin be the key to reproduction of the mutant species? The power to adapt, survive....Beast didn't consider that did he? This would be brilliant if the writers actually used it. Darwin could be a very important character...with a "messiah complex" if they played it right. But somehow, I doubt they are going to use him at all....which team is he on again?

twilight

11-12-2007, 04:46 AM

Sinny,have you ever had "carnal relations" with a white woman?

I ask in the interests of science.

-Twi

Pro

11-12-2007, 06:00 AM

So, it would appear that this writer felt perfectly fine writing a team of mutants that did NOT have any black mutants

Nor should he feel confined to picking characters solely based on race, that's what racists do, love characters because of their skincolor.

or mutants of color - save for a Native American, and I'm not certain they consider themselves to be "people of color" or not.

Can't get much worse than being called savages, being placed in reservation camps that can't really support their own population in a country that once belonged to them. That's of course after most of their tribes were wiped out. Native americans don't even have the luxury to "return to the motherland". There is no africa for the native american and there aren't millions of native americans living these days. Whereas blacks were enslaved native americans were butchered by the millions. There are less than 2 million native americans left. From what i saw when i was in america native americans are to everyone what blacks are to some racists. I've even seen one or two anachronistic "indians need not apply" signs, quite shocking.
For all the whining blacks do about the pityfull state they're in native americans seem to have it ten times worse.

There are less native americans left as a race as there are black college students in the USA, less native americans than there are black military personell. With less than 2 million native americans left versus 993 million africans and 40 million african americans (and i'm not even counting mixed race americans, nor mixed race hispanic blacks) native americans deserve first place when it comes to minorities that need the spotlight.

Some people say that he is just a "black-colored" Australian Aboriginine and as such, really isn't "black" as are those black people of African descent.

The only ones who don't consider Bishop black seem to be african americans who want to corner the market on skin color. I'm sure the average racist isn't going to ask Bishop if he's really of african descend and treat him as an equal when he finds out Bishop is of aboriginal descent. He'll just see black skin.
And like the native american tribes the aboriginals were butchered as savages and these days are a tiny minority in their own homeland. So again if we're looking at which minority has more "right" to be on an x-men team Bishop being an aboriginal deserves a place as minority more than the average black person.

Well, if you're seeing those things, I can say with a certainty, that you aren't seeing those things in my posts, or any of the posts which could be construed as being supportive of the position taken by the poster Magneto X.

(cough)hypocrite(cough)

Damned straight there should be more BLACK characters

Which as pretty much EVERYONE has been saying is true. But the reasoning that because there aren't as many black characters must mean the creators are racists is a load of bullshit.

Jackob

11-12-2007, 06:54 AM

Pro

11-12-2007, 07:29 AM

you should have no problem with bru, he is doing what you want, he is creating new black characters and giving them big roles in his books!

Yea but Bru is white, therefore evil. You really haven't noticed a pattern in Sinjection's posts yet ?

twilight

11-12-2007, 07:33 AM

...Darwin is black?

I could've sworn he was mexican.

-Twi

Jackob

11-12-2007, 07:37 AM

Yea but Bru is white, therefore evil. You really haven't noticed a pattern in Sinjection's posts yet ?

silly me i forgot his inherent evil

Jackob

11-12-2007, 07:39 AM

...Darwin is black?

I could've sworn he was mexican.

-Twi

half black/half Puerto Rican

Brian M.

11-12-2007, 07:39 AM

Joe Acro

11-12-2007, 07:42 AM

Of course, that black female EMT had a thing for white Donald Blake, so she was all over him: kissing him and what not.Just thought I'd correct you by saying that that was Jake Olson, not Donald Blake.

Moving on...

And I can't see Bishop beating the brains out of cyclops every once in a while...or at least once? What's up with that?Because non-misunderstood heroes typically don't beat the crap out of other heroes? Bishop and Cyclops respect each other. Maybe not so much after the events of Civil War: X-Men, but I don't see them fighting each other. I have seen Bishop best Wolverine in a training session, though.

...had one excellent and attractive, unmistakably black American male character been allowed to survive instead of slaughtered...The problem is that no one seems to be willing to settle on what that means.

You always seem to see what you want to see and ignore what you'd rather not see, although what you're ignoring is a truthful situation or circumstance.I could say the same to you.

Blade had his origins in the comicbooks. When David Goyer wanted to adapt that comicbook character for the movies, New Line Entertainment attempted to make Goyer recreate Blade as a white man. You're being purposely obtuse now, Joe. Intentionally so. This is a talk about comics, specifically X-Men comics. Blade even as a comic book character doesn't really belong here, even less so are discussions involving his character and Hollywood.

Hal Jordan appeared on a television program as well. It makes no difference. Today, in the opinion of a great many fans out there, John Stewart is the Green Lantern.Which is why older fans recognize Hal as Green Lantern (due to Superfriends) and younger ones recognize John (from Justice League/JLI).

See my comment about white males not being particularly interested in the exploits of powerful black male characters, Joe.The comic buying public in general doesn't seem to be interested in the adventures of black characters. Setting aside the gender or power-level of the character in question. At least, in regards to solo books. On a team, things are much different.

Would you say Darwin has the most potential of any new created X-character in the past 5 years?I would. He's certainly one of the few recently created X-characters I like to read about.

I like every character that I've got on my team. I think I have three WASPs [Havoc, Polaris and Marvel Girl], a German [Nightcrawler], a Native American [Warpath] and one other character I'm not allowed to talk about yet. __ Ed BrubakerThat last one was Darwin. And probably not mentioned specifically for a fewf reasons, such a storytelling and recognizability.

So, it would appear that this writer felt perfectly fine writing a team of mutants that did NOT have any black mutants or mutants of color...And yet, Darwin was a member of that team and created by that writer.

As a black American/Puerto Rican....pasty-colored freak who when x-fans look at him, they won't freak out because they won't immediately discern the fact that Darwin is black, thereby ruining my perfect team of 3 WASPs, 1 German and one Native American?His perfect team included Darwin, not just the other members of the team. He just couldn't talk about Darwin, as he states.

Well now, according to at least one participant to this thread, because Darwin doesn't look like a run-of-the-mill handsome black American/Puerto Rican male, but rather like a refugee from Planet X, his chances of survival in the Marvel X-universe - a universe that has proven itself decidedly hostile to the black, male mutant...and at least one normal human black male - see "She Lies With The Angels" - are excellent. And I think you're taking that one statement too far. That was one person's opinion. X-Men fans are a pretty open and accepting bunch. We wouldn't not accept one based on the color of their skin, but because they aren't a particularly interesting character, for whatever reason. Some don't see Darwin as interesting. I, and others who have posted in this thread, do. If he survives as a character, it will be because he's interesting, not because he's black/Puerto Rican.

Jackob

11-12-2007, 07:42 AM

If Darwin can be the key to bringing back mutant life...he's gonna get a lot of tail.

bow chica bow wow:D

no but i could see a way that his evolution powers some how bring mutants back, like a evloution cerebro or something.

or as evolution is all about a species surviving he evolves into a less crazy quicksilver repowerer.

frog

11-12-2007, 07:44 AM

Sinjection, there you are! I thought you might have left again!A quick scanning of this thread reveals that at least two posters have admitted that they had no idea that Darwin was NOT a white character.

1) Fatguy 2) Pariah

Darwin who - as Magneto X has revealed - was brown-skinned at one time, has "whitened" to an astonishing degree, a phenomenon that even Fatguy (I believe it was Fatguy), described as being "lame".

Here is a quote from an interview which appeared in the June 2006 issue of WIZARD magazine in which the "New Uncanny X-Men" were being discussed":

On his X-team...

I like every character that I've got on my team. I think I have three WASPs [Havoc, Polaris and Marvel Girl], a German [Nightcrawler], a Native American [Warpath] and one other character I'm not allowed to talk about yet. __ Ed Brubaker

So, it would appear that this writer felt perfectly fine writing a team of mutants that did NOT have any black mutants or mutants of color - save for a Native American, and I'm not certain they consider themselves to be "people of color" or not. Native Americans are not caucasians, my dear sinjection. In fact, I've heard a Native American joke that when god was making the various peoples of the world he didn't leave the white people in the oven long enough, the black people he accidently left in the oven too long, but the American Indians came out of the oven perfect!:D And I know you can't possibly be construing Brubaker's statement to mean that he wouldn't like a black character on his team. That would be one of those dreaded assumptions!

This "one other character I'm not allowed to talk about yet" could have been anyone. It could be speculated that the character might have been Darwin. If so, how might Brubaker have classified his national/ethnic origin. As a black American/Puerto Rican....pasty-colored freak who when x-fans look at him, they won't freak out because they won't immediately discern the fact that Darwin is black, thereby ruining my perfect team of 3 WASPs, 1 German and one Native American?Oh dear, more assumptions, and very nasty ones indeed. Must you always assume the worst?:(

And Anarchist....an arrogant, conceited, "Dennis Rodman" type, eh?

Hmmmm. Interesting though about what makes a perfect team racially-speaking, for at least one writer. Who says people are wasting their time reading and contributing to this fine thread? :)

____sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X

Oh, I'm having a grand time and consider this time well spent! However, you could add so much more if you'd only reply to me!:)

Brian M.

11-12-2007, 07:45 AM

I find it hilarious you think Brubaker is a racist.

Poor Falcon, he's being written by an uppity white man.

Brian M.

11-12-2007, 07:46 AM

When you assume, you make an ass our of u and me.

Pro

11-12-2007, 07:49 AM

If Darwin can be the key to bringing back mutant life...he's gonna get a lot of tail.

He could visit Black panther's harem and impregnate his women.

Brian M.

11-12-2007, 07:50 AM

He could visit Black panther's harem and impregnate his women.

What would Black Panther do than?

Jackob

11-12-2007, 07:51 AM

What would Black Panther do than?

there is always his back up harems

frog

11-12-2007, 07:54 AM

Well, if you're seeing those things, I can say with a certainty, that you aren't seeing those things in my posts, or any of the posts which could be construed as being supportive of the position taken by the poster Magneto X.Sinjection, sweetheart, don't you think others find your wish for black-on-white violence just a wee bit alarming? Haven't you gathered by now that picking on poor Beast just because he's a little bit hairy isn't quite PC?

A character who is supposed to be a male of Puerto Rican/black American descent, but a character who at least two posters participating in this thread admitted to having no idea that he wasn't white. Which is one of the things Magneto X indicated as being disappointing about this character. But those who read his backstory certainly know, and now we all know!

Well, Bishop....it depends upon who you ask. Some people say that he is just a "black-colored" Australian Aboriginine and as such, really isn't "black" as are those black people of African descent. Storm - although being of African descent - is often held to be according to some, a character who is "beyond race". To those individuals, Storm isn't "black", but a mish-mash of every racial and ethnic grouping on the planet.And just how much of a majority could these individuals possibly make? Synch was a fine black American male mutant. He was a good character. Too good. Too black. That combination got Synch "too dead".Perhaps you are just seeing another example of "only the good die young!"

Damned straight there should be more BLACK characters - especially in a book which owes its very existence to the inspiration taken from the creator's observance of the Civil Rights Struggle of the magnificent black American and two of their legendary Champions; Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. and Malcolm X. There certainly should! There should also be more believably plain women and alternate lifestyles! Hurrah for diversity!

Well now, according to at least one participant to this thread, because Darwin doesn't look like a run-of-the-mill handsome black American/Puerto Rican male, but rather like a refugee from Planet X, his chances of survival in the Marvel X-universe - a universe that has proven itself decidedly hostile to the black, male mutant...and at least one normal human black male - see "She Lies With The Angels" - are excellent.I'm afraid that the Marvel universe is hostile to all mutants, darling. By the way, do you believe that if Darwin looked like an average ugly black American/Puerto Rican male his chances would be affected?

If they bring that lovely sista back only to have her being slobbered on by that blue bigfoot some more, they should just leave her dead. Being dead is a more merciful fate than living through a romance with a "manimal" and bearing its spawn.

____sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X

Cecilia and Beast were simply meant to be! I'm so glad she doesn't view men like some men most unfortunately view women, only valuable for their looks!:D

Please do reply soon!

Flâneur

11-12-2007, 07:56 AM

What would Black Panther do than?

Join Darwin's harem in the name of black relations?

sinjection

11-12-2007, 08:03 AM

Because non-misunderstood heroes typically don't beat the crap out of other heroes?

Not good enough. In the first issue of his short-lived ongoing title, Blade dispatched both a vampiric-infected Spider-Man and Dracula, "King of Vampires" by page #6 of that book. Spider-Man and Dracula fans HATED the fact that Blade could have so easily beaten both of those characters. Blade is a hero. Spider-Man was an "out-of-control" hero who Blade could have easily killed, but decided to incapacitate instead. Blade was also sent after that mutant whose name I refuse to mention. Some say that mutant handed Blade his ass. I say Blade acquitted himself very well and was about to administer a substance to that mutant that would have turned him into a vampire and absolutely vulnerable to Blade, the ultimate vampire slayer. Blade realized upon unmasking that mutant, that they'd met before and he owed that mutant a favor. Therefore, Blade let that mutant off the hook. There is absolutely no reason that I can see why Bishop shouldn't be able to shove cyclops' foot up his hiney sideways. I don't mean to "excite" anybody out there in a sensual way by describing cyclops' defeat in that manner There is absolutely no reason why T'Challa shouldn't be able to defeat sabertooth and not have the writer of that incident catch a lot of flack for the Panther's victory. Yes, the Panther should be able to defeat Dr. Doom. Cage did it. Cloak defeated doom twice. Now, it's Thor's turn...to be defeated by a black male character, that is.

Intentionally so. This is a talk about comics, specifically X-Men comics. Blade even as a comic book character doesn't really belong here, even less so are discussions involving his character and Hollywood.

No. "Intentionally so" because my example of how New Line Entertainment execs tried to persuade David Goyer to recreate Blade as a white man and cast a white man in the role of Blade because they were of the opinion that white males would better relate to a white male vampire slayer absolutely pierces the heart of all opposition to my assertion. You are trying to run away from certain defeat, Joe. And it shows ;)

And yet, Darwin was a member of that team and created by that writer.

A character who created to look like he was born out of a petrie dish science project instead of the black American/Puerto Rican he is purported to be. Marvel Girl, Havoc, Polaris are all "WASPs" and they look like WASPs. Yes, Polaris has green hair. I've seen WASPs with purple hair, blue hair, orange hair and yes, green hair. Those WASP characters LOOK LIKE WASPs. The Native American character LOOKS like a Native American character. With his image inducer - which he no longer uses - Nightcrawler had the option of LOOKING like a German. Darwin looks like a space alien, not like a black American/Puerto Rican. There are some contributors to this thread who have admitted that they had no idea Darwin was NOT white. Magneto X's position has been substantiated.

And I think you're taking that one statement too far.

I've already told you what I think of what you "think" when it comes to matters that you could not possibly relate to, Joe. I read the statement for what it was. Those people do NOT see Storm as a black woman. Period. You slice it and dice it however you wish. It still comes up as the same ol' smelly trout.

____sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X

KJ_81

11-12-2007, 08:06 AM

Okay. I am almost 100% certain that the Bru quote you posted was in an article published before the conclusion of Deadly Genesis. Yes Darwin was the person he couldn't talk about, as Deadly Genesis hadn't concluded, so he didn't want to spoil the whole thing.
Also, I am an Australian, and while I understand that Australian Aboriginals aren't African Americans, I'd love to see you tell one of them in person that they 'aren't black.' You'd be knocked on your ass in no time. You have no idea what they go through, and what they identify with.

KJ_81

11-12-2007, 08:08 AM

And by the way, incredibly hypocritical to want to preach to us about advancing race relations, but then poo-pooing the idea of Cecial Reyes and Beast being involved romantically, in the manner that you did.
Pure class.
No wait, remove two letters. I'll let you imagine which ones.

frog

11-12-2007, 08:09 AM

Not good enough. In the first issue of his short-lived ongoing title, Blade dispatched both a vampiric-infected Spider-Man and Dracula, "King of Vampires" by page #6 of that book. Spider-Man and Dracula fans HATED the fact that Blade could have so easily beaten both of those characters. Blade is a hero. Spider-Man was an "out-of-control" hero who Blade could have easily killed, but decided to incapacitate instead. Blade was also sent after that mutant whose name I refuse to mention. Some say that mutant handed Blade his ass. I say Blade acquitted himself very well and was about to administer a substance to that mutant that would have turned him into a vampire and absolutely vulnerable to Blade, the ultimate vampire slayer. Blade realized upon unmasking that mutant, that they'd met before and he owed that mutant a favor. Therefore, Blade let that mutant off the hook. There is absolutely no reason that I can see why Bishop shouldn't be able to shove cyclops' foot up his hiney sideways. I don't mean to "excite" anybody out there in a sensual way by describing cyclops' defeat in that manner There is absolutely no reason why T'Challa shouldn't be able to defeat sabertooth and not have the writer of that incident catch a lot of flack for the Panther's victory. Yes, the Panther should be able to defeat Dr. Doom. Cage did it. Cloak defeated doom twice. Now, it's Thor's turn.Dear sinjection, don't let this wonderful thread turn into "my character can beat up your character" debates. We have better things to discuss!

No. "Intentionally so" because my example of how New Line Entertainment execs tried to persuade David Goyer to recreate Blade as a white man and cast a white man in the role of Blade because they were of the opinion that white males would better relate to a white male vampire slayer absolutely pierces the heart of all opposition to my assertion. You are trying to run away from certain defeat, Joe. And it shows ;) But he doesn't run from you nearly as fast as you run from me, darling!

A character who created to look like he was born out of a petrie dish science project instead of the black American/Puerto Rican he is purported to be. Marvel Girl, Havoc, Polaris are all "WASPs" and they look like WASPs. Yes, Polaris has green hair. I've seen WASPs with purple hair, blue hair, orange hair and yes, green hair. Those WASP characters LOOK LIKE WASPs. The Native American character LOOKS like a Native American character. With his image inducer - which he no longer uses - Nightcrawler had the option of LOOKING like a German. Darwin looks like a space alien, not like a black American/Puerto Rican. There are some contributors to this thread who have admitted that they had no idea Darwin was NOT white. Magneto X's position has been substantiated. Now there's a profoundly inspired idea, sinjection! Darwin can get an image inducer that makes him look black again and all will be well! Don't you approve?

I've already told you what I think of what you "think" when it comes to matters that you could not possibly relate to, Joe. I read the statement for what it was. Those people do NOT see Storm as a black woman. Period. You slice it and dice it however you wish. It still comes up as the same ol' smelly trout.

____sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X

Oh, sinjection, you still think no one is capable of empathy for others? I do wish you'd come around and have a little bit of optimism . . .

Flâneur

11-12-2007, 08:18 AM

here is absolutely no reason that I can see why Bishop shouldn't be able to shove cyclops' foot up his hiney sideways. I don't mean to "excite" anybody out there in a sensual way by describing cyclops' defeat in that manner

Wait ... you want Bishop to shove Cyclops' foot up his own man pussy?! How is Bishop getting foosted by someone in a body condom at all demonstrating the strength of black men?

Next you'll be saying Black Panther should try shrimping and dalmation kisses with Archangel in the name of equality.

Also, I am an Australian, and while I understand that Australian Aboriginals aren't African Americans, I'd love to see you tell one of them in person that they 'aren't black.' You'd be knocked on your ass in no time. You have no idea what they go through, and what they identify with.
Finally, someone who knows what I'm talking about.

Jackob

11-12-2007, 08:21 AM

Wait ... you want Bishop to shove Cyclops' foot up his own man pussy?! How is Bishop getting foosted by someone in a body condom at all demonstrating the strength of black men?

Next you'll be saying Black Panther should try shrimping and dalmation kisses with Archangel in the name of equality.

Finally, someone who knows what I'm talking about.

wow grammar is a tricky foe:D

sinjection

11-12-2007, 08:29 AM

Okay. I am almost 100% certain that the Bru quote you posted was in an article published before the conclusion of Deadly Genesis.

It doesn't matter when the quote was made. What matters is that the quote WAS made. That writer described his perfect team in terms of RACIAL TYPE. It wasn't necessary that he do so. He decided to do so. And now, it's revealed that his "secret member" was likely Darwin, a black American/Puerto Rican character who looks anything and everything but. There's no doubt that Havoc, Polaris, and Marvel Girl are the offspring of white parents. Darwin looks as if he was begat by two kneaded erasers.

I'd love to see you tell one of them in person that they 'aren't black.' You'd be knocked on your ass in no time. You have no idea what they go through, and what they identify with.

But you see, I'd never tell an Australian Aboriginine such a thing. I know what black people go through. I've had Puerto Ricans who some who contribute to this board would swear were white people, tell me emphatically that they consider themselves to be more black than they would ever consider themselves to be white. I never said Bishop wasn't black. I've read comments by other posters saying that both Bishop and Storm...and yes, even Rhianna, weren't black because they were so-called "multicultural".

I welcome the Australian Aboriginine as my brothers and sisters. No doubt about that.

And by the way, incredibly hypocritical to want to preach to us about advancing race relations, but then poo-pooing the idea of Cecial Reyes and Beast being involved romantically, in the manner that you did.

The WASP Havoc is romantically involved with the WASP Polaris. The WASP Cyclops and the WASP Phoenix begat the WASP character Marvel Girl. Why is it wrong for me to see the beautiful black American/Puerto Rican Cecilia Reyes become romantically involved with either a black or Puerto Rican male rather than be slobbered on by a blue bigfoot?

____sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X

KJ_81

11-12-2007, 08:37 AM

It doesn't matter when the quote was made. What matters is that the quote WAS made. That writer described his perfect team in terms of RACIAL TYPE. It wasn't necessary that he do so. He decided to do so. And now, it's revealed that his "secret member" was likely Darwin, a black American/Puerto Rican character who looks anything and everything but. There's no doubt that Havoc, Polaris, and Marvel Girl are the offspring of white parents. Darwin looks as if he was begat by two kneaded erasers.

But you see, I'd never tell an Australian Aboriginine such a thing. I know what black people go through. I've had Puerto Ricans who some who contribute to this board would swear were white people, tell me emphatically that they consider themselves to be more black than they would ever consider themselves to be white. I never said Bishop wasn't black. I've read comments by other posters saying that both Bishop and Storm...and yes, even Rhianna, weren't black because they were so-called "multicultural".

I welcome the Australian Aboriginine as my brothers and sisters. No doubt about that.

The WASP Havoc is romantically involved with the WASP Polaris. The WASP Cyclops and the WASP Phoenix begat the WASP character Marvel Girl. Why is it wrong for me to see the beautiful black American/Puerto Rican Cecilia Reyes become romantically involved with either a black or Puerto Rican male rather than be slobbered on by a blue bigfoot?

____sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X

First off, it DOES matter when the article was made. HE COULDN'T TALK ABOUT DARWIN AT THAT STAGE, BECAUSE IT WOULD HAVE RUINED THE MINI-SERIES. For all you know, Bru was just bursting to put forth a Sinjection-approved racial rant, but couldn't. And, as he, you know, created the character, I'm sure he would have loved to have gotten in a lot more discussion about Darwin.

I welcome the Australian Aboriginine as my brothers and sisters. No doubt about that.
That's great. They are quite a different people, you know. But then again, this ALSO means that you have no problem in accepting white people as your own brothers and sisters, and also, that we are more than just white people, as you are more than just a black person, in that there are Australian Aboriginal black people and African-American black people, there are Australian white people, American White People, German white people, etc etc, all of whom are different in culture and heritage.

As to the race relationship: You want the mold to be broken, but only in a certain way??? Busting the mold is busting the mold, so surely, as someone who is passionate about advancing the state of black people in comics, you would be happy with anything that promotes them positively, and that has the possibility of challenging some people's views? Or it only you own views that you want to see??? And that's the problem with this scenario, it's not EXACTLY what you want, even though it's important in the bigger picture? Sad, really sad.

Flâneur

11-12-2007, 08:41 AM

There's no doubt that Havoc, Polaris, and Marvel Girl are the offspring of white parents. Darwin looks as if he was begat by two kneaded erasers.
http://image.comicvine.com/uploads/item/4000/3566/163912-marvel-girl_400.jpg

The WASP Havoc is romantically involved with the WASP Polaris. The WASP Cyclops and the WASP Phoenix begat the WASP character Marvel Girl. Why is it wrong for me to see the beautiful black American/Puerto Rican Cecilia Reyes become romantically involved with either a black or Puerto Rican male rather than be slobbered on by a blue bigfoot?

____sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X

So ... you don't like slobber? You'd prefer she was peed on then?

frog

11-12-2007, 08:44 AM

It doesn't matter when the quote was made. What matters is that the quote WAS made. That writer described his perfect team in terms of RACIAL TYPE. It wasn't necessary that he do so. He decided to do so. And now, it's revealed that his "secret member" was likely Darwin, a black American/Puerto Rican character who looks anything and everything but. There's no doubt that Havoc, Polaris, and Marvel Girl are the offspring of white parents. Darwin looks as if he was begat by two kneaded erasers.Sinjection, you had the perfect opportunity to ask Brubaker about this not too long ago. I'm sure he would have been happy to discuss it with you. And what do you think of the image inducer idea? That should satify everyone, shouldn't it? ;)

But you see, I'd never tell an Australian Aboriginine such a thing. I know what black people go through. I've had Puerto Ricans who some who contribute to this board would swear were white people, tell me emphatically that they consider themselves to be more black than they would ever consider themselves to be white. I never said Bishop wasn't black. I've read comments by other posters saying that both Bishop and Storm...and yes, even Rhianna, weren't black because they were so-called "multicultural".

I welcome the Australian Aboriginine as my brothers and sisters. No doubt about that.Oh, sinjection, I truly doubt those posters constitute a majority. Shall we take a poll and have some statistics to back this up?

The WASP Havoc is romantically involved with the WASP Polaris. The WASP Cyclops and the WASP Phoenix begat the WASP character Marvel Girl. Why is it wrong for me to see the beautiful black American/Puerto Rican Cecilia Reyes become romantically involved with either a black or Puerto Rican male rather than be slobbered on by a blue bigfoot?

____sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X

The beautiful Cecilia is an intellectual as well as a pretty face! How much better for her to love the intelligent and delightfully humorous Beast than some random fellow picked only for looks! Let's face it, looks always fade in the end. It's much wiser to love the man inside!:)

DarthCyclopsRLZ

11-12-2007, 08:44 AM

The WASP Havoc is romantically involved with the WASP Polaris. The WASP Cyclops and the WASP Phoenix begat the WASP character Marvel Girl. Why is it wrong for me to see the beautiful black American/Puerto Rican Cecilia Reyes become romantically involved with either a black or Puerto Rican male rather than be slobbered on by a blue bigfoot?

Not wrong per se.

Probabilities just aren't on your side on that one.

Pro

11-12-2007, 08:46 AM

It doesn't matter when the quote was made. What matters is that the quote WAS made. That writer described his perfect team in terms of RACIAL TYPE. It wasn't necessary that he do so.

Nor is it necesarry for you to bring up the subject time and time and time and time again until everyone on this fucking forum gets fed up even hearing the word race. And yet you persist.

a blue bigfoot?

Said blue bigfoot was created to show people that appearance means nothing, that no matter how he might look he is a caring, humorous genius. Beast often has to deal with being judged on appearance in many a story. You'd think that would strike a chord with anyone who's been judged on appearance but i am not surprised it is entirely lost on you.

sinjection

11-12-2007, 08:46 AM

First off, it DOES matter when the article was made. HE COULDN'T TALK ABOUT DARWIN AT THAT STAGE, BECAUSE IT WOULD HAVE RUINED THE MINI-SERIES. For all you know, Bru was just bursting to put forth a Sinjection-approved racial rant, but couldn't. And, as he, you know, created the character, I'm sure he would have loved to have gotten in a lot more discussion about Darwin.

I see you must have overlooked the part where I say the writer described his perfect teams in terms of racial type, when it really wasn't necessary for him to do so. Most people reading the book could look at Havoc, Polaris and Marvel Girl and see three white people. Most people reading the book could look at Warpath's stereotypical uniform and discern from his codename, that they were looking at a Native American character. How the hell could anyone look at Darwin and ever tell by virtue of physical appearance, that he was a black American/Puerto Rican male? If you're going to answer my posts, please do try to respond by accurately representing my point. Thank you.

____sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X

RoguishGurl

11-12-2007, 08:49 AM

I still think darwin was based off of Wentworth Miller.
http://images.askmen.com/galleries/men/wentworth-miller/pictures/wentworth-miller-picture-1.jpg

Flâneur

11-12-2007, 08:49 AM

Sinjection, I demand you respond to this, SHE DESERVES A RESPONSE!

http://image.comicvine.com/uploads/item/4000/3566/163912-marvel-girl_400.jpg

KJ_81

11-12-2007, 08:50 AM

I see you must have overlooked the part where I say the writer described his perfect teams in terms of racial type, when it really wasn't necessary for him to do so. Most people reading the book could look at Havoc, Polaris and Marvel Girl and see three white people. Most people reading the book could look at Warpath's stereotypical uniform and discern from his codename, that they were looking at a Native American character. How the hell could anyone look at Darwin and ever tell by virtue of physical appearance, that he was a black American/Puerto Rican male? If you're going to answer my posts, please do try to respond by accurately representing my point. Thank you.

____sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X

It's a sure sign that you have nothing of substance to debate with, when you ignore the majority of the points made and find one miniscule thing and only use that, as you have done here, by not responding to the rest of my comments or those of other posters.

frog

11-12-2007, 08:54 AM

I see you must have overlooked the part where I say the writer described his perfect teams in terms of racial type, when it really wasn't necessary for him to do so. Most people reading the book could look at Havoc, Polaris and Marvel Girl and see three white people. Most people reading the book could look at Warpath's stereotypical uniform and discern from his codename, that they were looking at a Native American character. How the hell could anyone look at Darwin and ever tell by virtue of physical appearance, that he was a black American/Puerto Rican male? If you're going to answer my posts, please do try to respond by accurately representing my point. Thank you.

____sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X

But, sinjection honey, you're saying that he was describing his perfect team yet in your quote I see that Brubaker simply said he liked every member of his team. Surely you can see that you are assuming unpleasant things again by implying he wouldn't have a black male? Do you think he deliberately excluded all the other ethnic groups he didn't mention as well? :)

And you still haven't weighed in on the image inducer solution! :(

sinjection

11-12-2007, 08:55 AM

I still think darwin was based off of Wentworth Miller.
http://images.askmen.com/galleries/men/wentworth-miller/pictures/wentworth-miller-picture-1.jpg

My dear girl, you can't possibly really belive such to be true.

Wentworth Miller is decidedly human in appearance.

I believe that if you were to take a pic of Darwin to Mr. Wentworth, explain to him that you believe that Darwin was inspired by Wentworth's appearance and requested that he sign his autograph on that Darwin picture....

Well, let's just say I believe you would leave that encounter without an autograph and somewhat disappointed to say the very least.

____sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X

My final word on this subject. Have fun, folks :)

RoguishGurl

11-12-2007, 08:56 AM

My dear girl, you can't possibly really belive such to be true.

Wentworth Miller is decidedly human in appearance.

I believe that if you were to take a pic of Darwin to Mr. Wentworth, explain to him that you believe that Darwin was inspired by Wentworth's appearance and requested that he sign his autograph on that Darwin picture....

Well, let's just say I believe you would leave that encounter without an autograph and somewhat disappointed to say the very least.

____sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X

My final word on this subject. Have fun, folks :)

I think Darwin looks human. *shrugs*

frog

11-12-2007, 08:58 AM

Since sinjection simply can't find the time to reply to my wonderful idea (I'm sure there can't be any other reason) I'd like to know what everyone else thinks of my solution to the Darwin dilemna.:)

Darwin can use an image inducer to look like a black American/Puerto Rican so that his outside matches his inside. Would this make everyone happy?

Or would this be a bad example for Beast, Nightcrawler and our other less ordinary appearing mutants?

frog

11-12-2007, 08:59 AM

Flâneur

11-12-2007, 09:05 AM

It's a sure sign that you have nothing of substance to debate with, when you ignore the majority of the points made and find one miniscule thing and only use that, as you have done here, by not responding to the rest of my comments or those of other posters.

He's behaved this way for the entirety of his posting history and takes pride in it - he even goes back to the Hudlin forums to laugh about the things he's posting here. Honestly, don't waste your time in trying to seriously debate him.

Dagger

11-12-2007, 09:08 AM

I still think darwin was based off of Wentworth Miller.
http://images.askmen.com/galleries/men/wentworth-miller/pictures/wentworth-miller-picture-1.jpg
He can break into my prison anytime he wants to. And by prison I mean underwear.

Pach!

11-12-2007, 09:23 AM

The reason we don't see black characters beating white people to a pulp is because comics are not a place where fanboys can vent their ridiculous resentments against society. It's not a therapist, it's a book.

Or so I think.

Magneto X

11-12-2007, 09:25 AM

Not wrong per se.

Probabilities just aren't on your side on that one.

That's the problem with having so few characters of color over all. Make a few of them date interacially or have blue eyes and suddenly half or more of them are doing that. Once we have a "critical mass" of characters of non-whtie races, such creative experimentation will have a different result overall.

Magneto X

11-12-2007, 09:26 AM

comics are not a place where fanboys can vent their ridiculous resentments against society.

You think not? Or are you, for the purposes of your statement, just excluding the nerdy white guy fanboys longing to dive into the cleavage of their cheerleader-fantasy-turned-Power Girl after one-uping the bully football player Flash Tompson?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/28/Flashthompson1.jpg

I think Darwin looks human. *shrugs*

I get it, it's the "I don't see race", Stephen Colbert shtick, "I only see human." How original. :rolleyes: And false race-free bravado. But even taking that on it's face, he doesn't look human, he looks like an alien. http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/1/13/Darwin_001.JPG Or rather, what our pop culture thinks of an alien. Or rather, what our white pop culture thinks of an alien. In general (and all manner of caveats to assure you I'm not saying 100% of white people) the white American mainstream pop culture vision of an alien has been light green, light grey or white, hairless, and with big eyes. This is our subconscious vision of our own advancement, our own evolution, and therefore also appropriate for a character who represents the ultimate in human evolution. However, because few people stopped to think about the subconsious assumptions that went into our fantasy alien/advanced imagery (few representations of advanced aliens or advanced humans are of a darker skinned person, despite the fact that our color on this planet is actually darkening on average), few people also stopped to think that making Darwin's evolution going from brown to white was 1) nonsensical and 2) innapropriate.

frog

11-12-2007, 09:37 AM

I get it, it's the "I don't see race", Stephen Colbert shtick, "I only see human." How original. And false race-free bravado.How rude. Why shouldn't someone look beyond race and recognize that we are all descended from the same ancestry and all headed in the same direction? Your belittlement of RG only makes you appear unwilling to look forward and hasty to berate someone who does.
But even taking that on it's face, he doesn't look human, he looks like an alien. Or rather, what our pop culture thinks of an alien. Or rather, what our white pop culture thinks of an alien. In general (and all manner of caveats to assure you I'm not saying 100% of white people) the white American mainstream pop culture vision of an alien has been light green, light grey or white, hairless, and with big eyes. This is our subconscious vision of our own advancement, our own evolution, and therefore also appropriate for a character who represents the ultimate in human evolution. However, because few people stopped to think about the subconsious assumptions that went into our fantasy alien/advanced imagery (few representations of advanced aliens or advanced humans are of a darker skinned person, despite the fact that our color on this planet is actually darkening on average), few people also stopped to think that making Darwin's evolution going from brown to white was 1) nonsensical and 2) innapropriate. You are reading things that I doubt the creators ever intended and becoming excessively fixated on the idea that Darwin is intentionally being changed to placate a certain audience.

That's the problem with having so few characters of color over all. Make a few of them date interacially or have blue eyes and suddenly half or more of them are doing that. Once we have a "critical mass" of characters of non-whtie races, such creative experimentation will have a different result overall. I'm sorry that the makeup of the mutants does not suit your specific criteria, but you imply far more intentional riggery than is justified and logical.

Affinity

11-12-2007, 09:42 AM

Is Darwin black or hispanic?

worstblogever

11-12-2007, 09:44 AM

But even taking that on it's face, he doesn't look human, he looks like an alien. http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/1/13/Darwin_001.JPG Or rather, what our pop culture thinks of an alien. .

I'm afraid to ask... but what do other minorities think aliens look like? Since you speak for them all, and everything.

Pach!

11-12-2007, 09:46 AM

Is Darwin black or hispanic?

Both . He's half puerto Rican/Half black

Affinity

11-12-2007, 09:48 AM

OH CHILL, that's really cool! I like that.

tipo4thesoul

11-12-2007, 09:51 AM

You think not? Or are you, for the purposes of your statement, just excluding the nerdy white guy fanboys longing to dive into the cleavage of their cheerleader-fantasy-turned-Power Girl after one-uping the bully football player Flash Tompson?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/28/Flashthompson1.jpg

I get it, it's the "I don't see race", Stephen Colbert shtick, "I only see human." How original. :rolleyes: And false race-free bravado. But even taking that on it's face, he doesn't look human, he looks like an alien. http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/1/13/Darwin_001.JPG Or rather, what our pop culture thinks of an alien. Or rather, what our white pop culture thinks of an alien. In general (and all manner of caveats to assure you I'm not saying 100% of white people) the white American mainstream pop culture vision of an alien has been light green, light grey or white, hairless, and with big eyes. This is our subconscious vision of our own advancement, our own evolution, and therefore also appropriate for a character who represents the ultimate in human evolution. However, because few people stopped to think about the subconsious assumptions that went into our fantasy alien/advanced imagery (few representations of advanced aliens or advanced humans are of a darker skinned person, despite the fact that our color on this planet is actually darkening on average), few people also stopped to think that making Darwin's evolution going from brown to white was 1) nonsensical and 2) innapropriate.

I really wish you would take your anguish for white pop culture and direct it towards a direction that it is actually needed. There are tons of racial problems and the world. The way Darwin looks, is the way Darwin looks. If you were to get angry about anything get angry at how Luke Cage is a walking stereotype for black people. Or how Bishop rocked that ridiculas Jerry Curl for so long. Darwin's apperence is because he is a mutant and as such he looks different, such as Blink or Nightcrawler. Maybe it is his body's way of evolving past petty things such as race and color.

Dagger

11-12-2007, 09:53 AM

A question to all those complaining about race in comics: do you read the comics with these characters in the stories? If not, then why does it bother you? It's fiction. The portrayal of ethnic characters by white writers are obviously not to your forte, so why buy their books, better yet, why complain about characters you don't read about? And it's not like white people are the only ones who have a problem writing ethnic characters. Many african american authors have like totally disemboweled established characters personalities (Grievoux with Jubes and Winddancer over in New Warriors for example and I'm not even going to get into Hudlin's Storm) that they've been SINOx2 and JINO. What about the fans of those characters? Should they be putting up such an uproar for the bad portrayal of them in books?

Pach!

11-12-2007, 09:57 AM

Cayman

11-12-2007, 09:57 AM

E.T. was brown.

Pach!

11-12-2007, 09:59 AM

Magneto X

11-12-2007, 10:01 AM

why does it bother you? It's fiction.

There are numerous organizations dedicated to getting various non-white ethnic group portrayals in fictional media (movies, television, etc) to be more fair. I think it's damaging for a young black or Puerto Rican kid to rarely see black or Puerto Rican's portrayed as thoughtful, kind or successful.

Maybe it is his body's way of evolving past petty things such as race and color.

Maybe. But maybe Marvel should have a fair share of their heroes be Latino, Black and other non-white characters before they take one of the only ones we have and make him "evolve" white as a way of evolving past race.

I'm afraid to ask... but what do other minorities think aliens look like? Since you speak for them all, and everything.

I did say that I speak for them all, didn't I? Or rather, I didn't. Because black folks have produced almost none of the comics, novel covers, movies and other media that depict our vision of advanced alien visitors, my imagination of them (like most everyone else) has been largely shaped by popular vision, so (most likely just like you) I can hardly help but see a bald, little, pale-colored big eyed humanoid. And, similarly, when you say "President" or "CEO of the company" or "computer programmer" I imagine a white guy, because it's 99% of the image I've seen connected to that term. But because I try to make vigilant attempts to counteract racial skewing of pop cultural education, I hope that if I were in charge of media (a movie, or comic, perhaps) that I would take opportunities to counteract these skews.

How rude. Why shouldn't someone look beyond race and recognize that we are all descended from the same ancestry and all headed in the same direction? ... you appear unwilling to look forward and hasty to berate someone who does.

Saying you "only see human" is a bit disingenuous. Unless you grew up in a lab, you do notice race. It's also as risky as an alcoholic saying they're cured. One day we may not see it. That day doesn't come sooner, in my opinion, because we take short cuts and lie to ourselves about whether we notice someone's race or not.

on the idea that Darwin is intentionally being changed to placate a certain audience.

Straw man argument tactic: I didn't say "intentionally"

In fact, if there ever was a word that meant the exact opposite of "intentional" then it probably is "subconscious", which is exactly
the word that I did use. We went over this for several posts before
when someone kept putting the word "conspiracy" in my mouth.
Just because racial assumptions may be unconscious doesn't mean
we don't need to highlight and eliminate them. In fact, it's the
subconscious ones are the ones most likely to continue if we don't.

Deus ex Chris

11-12-2007, 10:05 AM

Brian M.

11-12-2007, 10:06 AM

I see race and skin color.

I don't care about it nor does it affect my judgement of a person.

Am I disingenuous?

Brian M.

11-12-2007, 10:07 AM

Some of us notice it in the same way we notice a hair style or an outfit. It's just a detail and not relevant to the way we interact with others. Believe it or not, those people exist.

I would go as far to say that those people out number those that do make it an issue.

Dagger

11-12-2007, 10:09 AM

Some of us notice it in the same way we notice a hair style or an outfit. It's just a detail and not relevant to the way we interact with others. Believe it or not, those people exist.
You're only saying that because you wanna keep the black man down, and placate to his needs that he's a hounded minority, but by denying him the satisfaction you're causing him to form dilussions in his head, and create scenarios and conspiracies where there are none.:p

And this sentence has made about as much sense as I've read in this thread, which is to say NONE!!! LOL!

tipo4thesoul

11-12-2007, 10:09 AM

Some of us notice it in the same way we notice a hair style or an outfit. It's just a detail and not relevant to the way we interact with others. Believe it or not, those people exist.

QFT
Some of us choose to just see each other for what we are and not what society expects us to be. Where I grew up, people didn't see my dark complexion, they only saw the person I was past my appearance. Not everyone is driven by racial stereotypes and predispositions of what people of different races should look like and act.

frog

11-12-2007, 10:09 AM

Saying you "only see human" is a bit disingenuous. Unless you grew up in a lab, you do notice race. It's also as risky as an alcoholic saying they're cured. One day we may not see it. That day doesn't come sooner, in my opinion, because we take short cuts and lie to ourselves about whether we notice someone's race or not. Yes, people do notice the color of other people. That does not mean they automatically judge them on it. RG doesn't her head in the sand. She deliberately chooses to see beyond the outside. You can cynically roll your eyes at her but she'll accomplish far more toward bringing people together than your pessimism and inflamatory rhetoric ever will.

Straw man argument tactic: I didn't say "intentionally"

In fact, if there ever was a word that meant the exact opposite of "intentional" then it probably is "subconscious", which is exactly
the word that I did use. We went over this for several posts before
when someone kept putting the word "conspiracy" in my mouth.
Just because racial assumptions may be unconscious doesn't mean
we don't need to highlight and eliminate them. In fact, it's the
subconscious ones are the ones most likely to continue if we don't.

I don't see a reason for subconscious alteration to make Darwin a white person either. You assume much and prove little.

Deus ex Chris

11-12-2007, 10:09 AM

I would go as far to say that those people out number those that do make it an issue.
Well, I won't argue numbers because racism/racial bias does exist--and not just among the caucasian population. I can only speak for myself and the people I surround myself with.

Dagger

11-12-2007, 10:14 AM

Well, I won't argue numbers because racism/racial bias does exist--and not just among the caucasian population. I can only speak for myself and the people I surround myself with.
Exactly. It's not like it's just a 'white thing'. You often find prejudice amongst the black community, with the darker and lighter skinned males. For some reason, lighter skinned black men are treated as less manly as a lot of darker skinned black men. And let's not even get into how the black community treats it's homosexual community.

Brian M.

11-12-2007, 10:18 AM

Exactly. It's not like it's just a 'white thing'. You often find prejudice amongst the black community, with the darker and lighter skinned males. For some reason, lighter skinned black men are treated as less manly as a lot of darker skinned black men. And let's not even get into how the black community treats it's homosexual community.

I thought everyone liked Wayne Brady?

Magneto X

11-12-2007, 10:27 AM

I don't see a reason for subconscious alteration to make Darwin a white person either. You assume much and prove little.

There is a space here for opinion, right? Not just scientifically proven truths and statements backed up by in-court sworn testimony? Good. Then let me proceed: Yes, there is no "proof" until a creator writes: "You know, now that I think about it, it probably was a mistake. Storm too. If I had it to do it over again, I probably wouldn't give her blue eyes. You know, I am white, obviously, and this probably does affect me in assumptions I make, my beauty standard preference for long flowy hair and blue eyes, stereotypes I might accidentally fall into, and my comfort writing for characters of color. We're going to work harder on that. We take pride in being more true to life than our competitors, and in terms of racial portrayals, we've still got some work to do."

But we can count the number superheroes and A-list superheroes who are white and non-white and note that non-white charcters have a fraction of their proportional share. The fact that I think this dynamic might also apply to white charcteristic being given to the few black characters is my opinion, but I am not alone in that, and I think my reasoning is a thoughtful one you shouldn't discount so hastily.

your pessimism

I am either pessimistic, or you wear rose-colored glasses.
Compared to white Americans, black Americans, as demonstrated overwhelmingly by every poll on the topic, are much more "pessimistic" about how many racial imbalances have been solved. In your opinion, I suppose, it's because white people see the true state of racism more accurately, and we have a paranoid complex and/or make stuff up? Rather than being more pessimistic because we actually and accurately experience the racial imbalances in modern life that many white people simply assume are long gone?

Brian M.

11-12-2007, 10:32 AM

Speed

11-12-2007, 10:37 AM

What in the world are you talking about?

Pwood

11-12-2007, 10:38 AM

Darwin and racism.

Flâneur

11-12-2007, 10:42 AM

What in the world are you talking about?

Considering the thread is called 'Darwin' and race is the most frequently mentioned word on every page I think you can take a wild guess as to the topic. Unless you thought Darwin referred to the city or the scientist.

frog

11-12-2007, 10:42 AM

There is a space here for opinion, right? Not just scientifically proven truths and statements backed up by in-court sworn testimony? Good. Then let me proceed: Yes, there is no "proof" until a creator writes: "You know, now that I think about it, it probably was a mistake. Storm too. If I had it to do it over again, I probably wouldn't give her blue eyes. You know, I am white, obviously, and this probably does affect me in assumptions I make, my beauty standard preference for long flowy hair and blue eyes, stereotypes I might accidentally fall into, and my comfort writing for characters of color. We're going to work harder on that. We take pride in being more true to life than our competitors, and in terms of racial portrayals, we've still got some work to do." I'm sorry, but if the concern of the Marvel Universe is being true to life than we'd have to get rid of every single superhero. And, yes, there is certainly space for opinion. Don't be surprised when the opinions differ and we ask for supported arguments on hot topics. A statement backed up with facts matters more to me than an opinion in a debate.

But we can count the number superheroes and A-list superheroes who are white and non-white and note that non-white charcters have a fraction of their proportional share. The fact that I think this dynamic might also apply to white charcteristic being given to the few black characters is my opinion, but I am not alone in that, and I think my reasoning is a thoughtful one you shouldn't discount so hastily. It's possible, but I really haven't seen enough to agree.

I am either pessimistic, or you wear rose-colored glasses.
Compared to white Americans, black Americans, as demonstrated overwhelmingly by every poll on the topic, are much more "pessimistic" about how many racial imbalances have been solved. In your opinion, I suppose, it's because white people see the true state of racism more accurately, and we have a paranoid complex and/or make stuff up? Rather than being more pessimistic because we actually and accurately experience the racial imbalances in modern life that many white people simply assume are long gone? We know full well these imbalances are not completely gone, just as gender-based discrimination hasn't dissapeared. However, I act as though I expect to be treated as an equal and not as though men are my enemy. As a result, I am usually treated courtesly and fairly. I recognize that if I went into my workplace determined to see gender bias everywhere I look that I'd be miserable, barely tolerated, and only holding myself back. This doesn't mean I ignore the obvious discrimination when it happens. I save my energy for the big battles. This doesn't mean I have on blinders, it means I have a positive attitude, get along well with my coworkers and succeed in further demonstrating that I am a capable person.

Magneto X

11-12-2007, 10:47 AM

your pessimism

"Conducted between March 23 and May 16, 2001, the Gallup Poll Social Audit: Black-White Relations in the United States, showed that black and white Americans differ on various issues regarding affirmative action, racial profiling, and opportunities in education and housing. In response to a question about how blacks are treated in the United States, 38% of whites said the same as whites, whereas 51% said not very well. In contrast, only 9% of blacks believed they received equal treatment to whites, with 71% believing the treatment to be less than favorable."

Why ARE black people so pessimistic about how far we've come?

I see race and skin color.

I don't care about it nor does it affect my judgement of a person.

Am I disingenuous?

You're certainly not being like the folks saying they don't even notice race. You can say for certain that it does not affect your conscious judgment of a person, right? Can you say for certain that it does not affect your subconcious judgment? Perhaps it doesn't. But then, if it didn't affect anyone's subconscious judgment (including the judgment of a comicbook character creator) then how do we explain the study I posted where less-qualified light-skinned black people were found to be more qualified than dark skinned black people? And how do we explain this study?

"Are Emily and Brendan More Employable than Lakisha and Jamal?" Marianne Bertrand, an associate professor at the University of Chicago Graduate School of Business, and Sendhil Mullainathan of Massachusetts Institute of Technology use a field experiment to measure the extent of race-based job discrimination in the current labor market.
http://www.chicagogsb.edu/capideas/spring03/racialbias.html

"White job applicants with higher-quality resumes received 30 percent more callbacks than whites with lower-quality resumes. Having a higher-quality resume has a much smaller impact on African-American applicants, who experienced only 9 percent more callbacks for the same improvement in their credentials. This disparity suggests that in the current state of the labor market, African-Americans may not have strong individual incentives to build better resumes.

"For us, the most surprising and disheartening result is seeing that applicants with African-American names were not rewarded for having better resumes," says Bertrand."

(There are more studies like this for the doubters.) I explain it by saying that for all the talk that we've eliminated racially imbalanced judgments, enough subconcious judgment must remain in enough people to account for these results.

tipo4thesoul

11-12-2007, 10:50 AM

We know full well these imbalances are not completely gone, just as gender-based discrimination hasn't dissapeared. However, I act as though I expect to be treated as an equal and not as though men are my enemy. As a result, I am usually treated courtesly and fairly. I recognize that if I went into my workplace determined to see gender bias everywhere I look that I'd be miserable, barely tolerated, and only holding myself back. This doesn't mean I ignore the obvious discrimination when it happens. I save my energy for the big battles. This doesn't mean I have on blinders, it means I have a positive attitude, get along well with my coworkers and succeed in further demonstrating that I am a capable person.

QFT
It isn't our place to dwell on things such as discrimination at all times. People will always hate other people. It is how you advance while you are being held down. As a black man, I know that there will be discrimination and I will probably be looked down on or pasted up on a job. However, I also know that if I am willing to work hard enough, none of that stuff will stand in my way. I keep my head high and I press on.

Now, please drop the racial stuff about Darwin and get back to his character and not how he looks and what that has to do with the ills of society.

Brian M.

11-12-2007, 10:51 AM

So no matter what I do I'm judge people on race?

Jackob

11-12-2007, 10:52 AM

So no matter what I do I'm judge people on race?

yes your a dirty racist

Brian M.

11-12-2007, 10:54 AM

yes your dirty racist

Well I do wanna treat Selma Hayek as a sex slave.

Magneto X

11-12-2007, 10:57 AM

Well I do wanna treat Selma Hayek as a sex slave.

Yeah. Me too. She is so frickin hot.

So no matter what I do I'm judge people on race?

No. I don't think that, only that subconscious stereotypes abound. Rather than take quick and total comfort in the fact that we've eliminated all of them from our mind, I think it's important for folks to check in on themselves to make sure they don't slip into a stereotyped assumption.

I'm sorry, but if the concern of the Marvel Universe is being true to life than we'd have to get rid of every single superhero.

That's an extreme reaction. There are levels of realism even comics can acheive. Having everyone have a secret identity, a cape with tights and a name with "lad" or "girl" is unrealistic, even for superheroes. Having one black A-list character for every thirty white ones is unrealistic too. Taking away all unrealistic super powers would destroy the genre. Taking away white dominance would not.

frog

11-12-2007, 11:01 AM

"Conducted between March 23 and May 16, 2001, the Gallup Poll Social Audit: Black-White Relations in the United States, showed that black and white Americans differ on various issues regarding affirmative action, racial profiling, and opportunities in education and housing. In response to a question about how blacks are treated in the United States, 38% of whites said the same as whites, whereas 51% said not very well. In contrast, only 9% of blacks believed they received equal treatment to whites, with 71% believing the treatment to be less than favorable."

Why ARE black people so pessimistic about how far we've come?

The same reason many women are pessimistic about gender discrimination. Once again, I say it's better to look ahead to further achievements than to dwell on every slight. This is why I refuse to ally myself with certain women who look to see evil in all men do, that believe even consensual sex is rape, and who make people turn away from their cause by inflammatory statements and constant accusations.

Joe Acro

11-12-2007, 11:03 AM

Not good enough.No, it wouldn't be would it.

{sighs}

A bunch of stuff not related to the X-Men or Darwin.
Moving on...

You are trying to run away from certain defeat, Joe. And it shows ;) Not at all. I'm not running away from defeat. I'm merely running away from a topic that, at best, is tangential to the conversation.

A character who created to look like he was born out of a petrie dish science project instead of the black American/Puerto Rican he is purported to be. Marvel Girl, Havoc, Polaris are all "WASPs" and they look like WASPs. Yes, Polaris has green hair. I've seen WASPs with purple hair, blue hair, orange hair and yes, green hair. Those WASP characters LOOK LIKE WASPs. The Native American character LOOKS like a Native American character. With his image inducer - which he no longer uses - Nightcrawler had the option of LOOKING like a German. Darwin looks like a space alien, not like a black American/Puerto Rican. There are some contributors to this thread who have admitted that they had no idea Darwin was NOT white. Magneto X's position has been substantiated. I don't know how one looks like a WASP. Hell, I don't even know how one looks like a Protestant to be begin with. I don't even know how one looks German. That aside, if you're just talking about white people, they can be depicted in various ways and forms. It was discussed in another thread how a "true black character" (to use your turn of phrase) would be dark haired and brown-eyed. That same constraint cannot be applied to members of the white population, which you seem to be doing in that comment. Polaris has green hair and green eyes. Havok has blond hair and brown eyes. Marvel Girl has red hair and green eyes. Those latter two have short hair. In comparison to each other, they are visually different, even if you ignore costumes.

I don't know why Brubaker singled out racial/ethnic markings the way he did. I'm thinking it was a way of showing balance or maybe the lack thereof (if you want to argue that side). But both us go "I think" so much in opposition to each other that it's become a clash of simple opinion, with no great arguments made to convince the other one.

I've already told you what I think of what you "think" when it comes to matters that you could not possibly relate to, Joe.I should be insulted, but I'll let it go, as proving that to you be both impossible and futile.

And now, it's revealed that his "secret member" was likely Darwin, a black American/Puerto Rican character who looks anything and everything but.And the reason he was "secret member" is that Brubaker couldn't reveal that Darwin survived the Deadly Genesis mini.

Why is it wrong for me to see the beautiful black American/Puerto Rican Cecilia Reyes become romantically involved with either a black or Puerto Rican male rather than be slobbered on by a blue bigfoot?There's nothing wrong with wanting that (well, except for calling Beast derogatory names). But you're practically demanding it, which is the problem.

Maybe. But maybe Marvel should have a fair share of their heroes be Latino, Black and other non-white characters before they take one of the only ones we have and make him "evolve" white as a way of evolving past race.Why? To fill some imaginary quota? He's an odd brown/gray/white mix of color, but that's his color. The best you can hope for is a change in the degree of that color, as characters' skin colors do not change without reason, even from colorist to colorist.

Saying you "only see human" is a bit disingenuous. Unless you grew up in a lab, you do notice race. It's also as risky as an alcoholic saying they're cured. One day we may not see it. That day doesn't come sooner, in my opinion, because we take short cuts and lie to ourselves about whether we notice someone's race or not.I notice race like I notice that a person I'm passing has glasses. It tells me nothing of the person nor affects my opinion of them. So, yes, we all notice race. I don't think that makes the phrase "I only see human" (if anyone on here actually posted that) disingenuous.

Straw man argument tactic: I didn't say "intentionally"

In fact, if there ever was a word that meant the exact opposite of "intentional" then it probably is "subconscious", which is exactly
the word that I did use. We went over this for several posts before
when someone kept putting the word "conspiracy" in my mouth.
Just because racial assumptions may be unconscious doesn't mean
we don't need to highlight and eliminate them. In fact, it's the
subconscious ones are the ones most likely to continue if we don't.I think that assuming "subconscious" or "unconscious" actions are affecting characters having a certain race is close enough to conspiracy. Especially when it lacks backing in proof. And even moreso when people have pointed out alternative reasons for such actions.

There is a space here for opinion, right? Not just scientifically proven truths and statements backed up by in-court sworn testimony? Good.
And if that's how we're gonna play things:

9. YOUR OPINION ABOUT SOMETHING IS NOT, IN AND OF ITSELF, WORTHY OF ITS OWN THREAD
I understand that you have opinions, and that you think your opinion is interesting, but we have so many discussions where you can express your opinion. You do not need to (and should not) form your own thread to do so.

Brian M.

11-12-2007, 11:13 AM

Yeah. Me too. She is so frickin hot.

Best part is now that she's having a baby...those breasts can only get bigger. Darwin would evolve a bigger jaw just for her.

Magneto X

11-12-2007, 11:21 AM

I think that assuming "subconscious" or "unconscious" actions are affecting characters having a certain race is close enough to conspiracy.

Despite the fact that the two words are almost opposite? No, I think not.
Take me up on the things I say, not things you'd like to imagine me saying.

Conspiracy: "I've called this meeting to instruct you: No charcters of color."
Subconscious would be simply a creator making the character white because that's how they imagined them in their head, and simply failing to notice that the last thirty characters you created were also white.

Those two dynamics are not nearly the same. But, to the extent that either result in incredibly unrealistic racial portrayals or incredibly skewed racial demographics, I'd suggest we point it out to the publisher and hope it improves.

I say it's better to look ahead to further achievements than to dwell

Subconscious racial bias results in many of the same results as intentional racial bias when it comes to deciding on who gets the job, who gets the lenient sentence, who gets custody or how to cast a part in a movie, tv show or comic. We don't get to pat ourselves on the backs because we're no longer doing it with obvious intention, and then tell people losing out because of unconsious bias and subcocsious stereotypes that it's really their bad attitude they should worry about.

The best you can hope for is a change in the degree of that color, as characters' skin colors do not change without reason, even from colorist to colorist.

That's probably true, but I did fail to make a big deal about it with Storm, and now another opportunity for inclusion is being largely wasted in my opinion. And who knows how many years we have to wait until they create another important character of color? Perhaps by making it clear that the franchise needs a more proportional share of heroes of color now, it will spur creators and editors to think harder about their demographic skew the next time a major hero is created.

Joe Acro

11-12-2007, 11:27 AM

Despite the fact that the two words are almost opposite? No, I think not.
Take me up on the things I say, not things you'd like to imagine me saying.

Conspiracy: "I've called this meeting to instruct you: No charcters of color."
Subconscious would be simply a creator making the character white because that's how they imagined them in their head, and simply failing to notice that the last thirty characters you created were also white.And yet, you're implying an inherent conspiracy. "They all subconsciously want the race relation to stay the same!" Such a blanket statement does not a good argument make.

But, to the extent that either result in incredibly unrealistic racial portrayals or incredibly skewed racial demographics, I'd suggest we point it out to the publisher and hope it improves.If that's what you want to do, then do that. This thread certainly won't accomplish that.

Magneto X

11-12-2007, 11:31 AM

And yet, you're implying an inherent conspiracy. "They all subconsciously want the race relation to stay the

No. White people who, while making media narratives with characters, thinking first of people who look like themselves is not any kind of conspiracy. It's quite natural. Their failure to notice when they've awarded position after position after position to people who look like themselves isn't a conspiracy either, although it's arguable whether it's completely natural or not as opposed to being informed partly by stereotypes. Regardless, something doesn't need to be an active or vocal or planned conspiracy to be addressed and remedied.

frog

11-12-2007, 11:35 AM

Well I do wanna treat Selma Hayek as a sex slave.

Yeah. Me too. She is so frickin hot.

Subconscious racial bias results in many of the same results as intentional racial bias when it comes to deciding on who gets the job, who gets the lenient sentence, who gets custody or how to cast a part in a movie, tv show or comic. We don't get to pat ourselves on the backs because we're no longer doing it with obvious intention, and then tell people losing out because of unconsious bias and subcocsious stereotypes that it's really their bad attitude they should worry about.

By your logic I should really be getting upset about Brian and your comments about Selma Hayek. Do you see a problem here?

Joe Acro

11-12-2007, 11:42 AM

No. White people who, while making media narratives with characters, thinking first of people who look like themselves is not any kind of conspiracy. It's quite natural. Their failure to notice when they've awarded position after position after position to people who look like themselves isn't a conspiracy either, although it's arguable whether it's completely natural or not as opposed to being informed partly by stereotypes.White people aren't the only ones who do it.

But there are plenty of explanations for why there are more white characters than other races, even limited to the X-Men, that don't relate to the subconscious.

Regardless, something doesn't need to be an active or vocal or planned conspiracy to be addressed and remedied.Which somewhat implies that is still a conspiracy, no?

I'll assume you just didn't mean what you said.

Pwood

11-12-2007, 11:44 AM

Where did the discussion about Darwin go?

frog

11-12-2007, 11:45 AM

Where did the discussion about Darwin go?

I think it devolved.

Jackob

11-12-2007, 11:56 AM

I think it devolved.

but it being about darwin, it will adapt and survive:D

Blade X

11-12-2007, 12:01 PM

but it being about darwin, it will adapt and survive:D

LOL

Now that's comedy.:)

BTW, I'm going to start a separate thread dealing with racial diversity in the X-Men.

Magneto X

11-12-2007, 12:05 PM

I think it devolved.

It actually has involved his Puerto Rican/Black heritage and his white coloring, and how he realtes to Marvel's overall racial track record, from the beginning. Apparently people have a lot to say about this, which I find quite interesting.

White people aren't the only ones who do it.

Quite true. In fact, black people not only have their prejudices, but we often suffer from a sense of white supremacy. Most of us have been socialized this way. But I'm not sure what that comment has to do with addressing what a company, one led and dominated by white men, should do about its failure to equally (or even come anywhere near equally) represent characters of color.

By your logic I should really be getting upset about Brian and your comments about Selma Hayek. Do you see a problem here?

While I'm happy to apolagize for any offense, this statement about whether or not she is attractive is not about a character representation made by men (her role in some show, for instance), but about the actress herself. http://www.poster.net/hayek-salma/hayek-salma-photo-salma-hayek-6205902.jpg She is attractive and, as far as I know, has done nothing in her real life to express that she does not want to be considered that way, and about everything she can do to be considered that way. If you respect her choices then you would not begruge her that. What I think you are implying is that women are unrealistically portrayed as brainless sex objects in film and other media. I certainly agree with that.

Quote:
No. White people who, while making media narratives with characters, thinking first of people who look like themselves is not any kind of conspiracy. It's quite natural. Their failure to notice when they've awarded position after position after position to people who look like themselves isn't a conspiracy either, although it's arguable whether it's completely natural or not as opposed to being informed partly by stereotypes.
Regardless, something doesn't need to be an active or vocal or planned conspiracy to be addressed and remedied.

Which somewhat implies that is still a conspiracy, no?

No, very different, if you read that carefully, I think you'll find the concepts very very different.

Let's say, to illustrate an example, I get married. For the purpose of the example, let's assume there are no other chores except doing the dishes. I don't even think about doing the dishes except that, about once a month, I do notice them piled up and do some of them. After three months of marriage, my wife tells me: "You think I should do all the dishes because you're man." I say, "I never once said that. I don't think that. How could you say that? And, in fact, if I thought that, why would I have done the dishes the other day!?!" Then I add with a flourish: "Ah ha!" and point my finger at her, considering her argument defeated.

Now, in this example, she may point out to me that it was two weeks ago, not the other day. She may point out to me that she has done dishes ninety times, and I have done it four times. And she may point out to me that although I never told myself "My wife has to do the dishes because she's a woman" that might be how I was raised or there are those who certainly do think that and she might point out that the idea is perpetuated in the popular culture (how many men are washing dishes in commercials about dish soap?).

Now, she may not know exactly if I was raised that way or if I picked it up later. What she does know is that it is clear that popular culture has a problem with women being assumed to do the dishes and that I seem to be following in that example. I can either correct it by doing my share from now on or, to truly address it, find a way to make up for the three months of unfairness.

Now, does it really matter to her if I agree that my not doing the dishes is an planned conspiracy to get away with less than my share of housework VERSUS a subconscious failure (for whatever reason) to notice the dishes? Either way the remedy is for me to correct it.

Even though Storm and Darwin and the lack of many prominent charcters of color are a problem made subconsciously, rather than intentionally, doesn't mean it shouldn't ever be remedied by the conscious inclusion of characters of color.

But there are plenty of explanations for why there are more white characters than other races, that don't relate to the subconscious.

Let's see. There's intentional favortism for white characters. There's subconscious tendency for white writers and artists to cast folks more like themselves.
And ...
what are the other reasons? Aren't those the two possibilities?

What, is brown and beige ink ten times as expensive as white and light-peach or something?

RoguishGurl

11-12-2007, 12:07 PM

He can break into my prison anytime he wants to. And by prison I mean underwear.
hey, he's mine!!

I get it, it's the "I don't see race", Stephen Colbert shtick, "I only see human." How original. :rolleyes: And false race-free bravado. But even taking that on it's face, he doesn't look human, he looks like an alien. http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/1/13/Darwin_001.JPG Or rather, what our pop culture thinks of an alien. Or rather, what our white pop culture thinks of an alien. In general (and all manner of caveats to assure you I'm not saying 100% of white people) the white American mainstream pop culture vision of an alien has been light green, light grey or white, hairless, and with big eyes. This is our subconscious vision of our own advancement, our own evolution, and therefore also appropriate for a character who represents the ultimate in human evolution. However, because few people stopped to think about the subconsious assumptions that went into our fantasy alien/advanced imagery (few representations of advanced aliens or advanced humans are of a darker skinned person, despite the fact that our color on this planet is actually darkening on average), few people also stopped to think that making Darwin's evolution going from brown to white was 1) nonsensical and 2) innapropriate.
I'm sorry that my mind doesn't immediately go to race whenever I see people, i can't help that, that's how I was raised. I just can't go around wondering if people are judging me because I'm black, that takes the fun out of life. yes Darwin is black/puetro rican, but he is also human too. I didn't say that I didn't notice his race, I just said he looked human to me because sinjection said he didn't look human. I mean I also see Beast and Nightcrawler as human.

Joe Acro

11-12-2007, 12:09 PM

Either way the remedy is for me to correct it.And given this thread nor this board has that kind of power and that your first post didn't address this issue, I think it's best left for elsewhere.

Well, not that point specifically. Darwin's race, skin color, and powers, though, we can continue to discuss.

frog

11-12-2007, 12:29 PM

While I'm happy to apolagize for any offense, this statement about whether or not she is attractive is not about a character representation made by men (her role in some show, for instance), but about the actress herself. http://www.poster.net/hayek-salma/hayek-salma-photo-salma-hayek-6205902.jpg She is attractive and, as far as I know, has done nothing in her real life to express that she does not want to be considered that way, and about everything she can do to be considered that way. If you respect her choices then you would not begruge her that. What I think you are implying is that women are unrealistically portrayed as brainless sex objects in film and other media. I certainly agree with that.

You are joking. You are dissembling. If you can't see how you just invalidated your arguments by referring to a woman as a sexual slave there is no hope for you. You have just done exactly what you complain about.

I didn't jump all over this because I took it for what it mostly likely was, men admitting their admiration in a way that is politically uncorrect but without malice. However, I guarantee if that if you had said this on a board devoted to the advancement of women you would have been taken down like a lame gazelle in a pack of cheetahs.

I simply can't take you seriously anymore.

Magneto X

11-12-2007, 01:00 PM

by referring to a woman as a sexual slave

You're thinking of Brian M. I only meant to agree she is attractive and, since Brian and I had been disagreeing, chime in on a note of agreement, but, my apoagies having been proferred for all so offended, if you 1) think Brian means slave in any kind of an actual sense, and 2) think I agreed that a woman should be ensalved, and 3) think a real person who is a proud model and actress is on topic about how media portrays characters of color disproportionately, and 4) think I'm sexist, and 5) think a sexist person couldn't possibly have anything to offer on a topic about race, then by all means, stalk off in a well-earned victory huff.

And given this thread nor this board has that kind of power and that your first post didn't address this issue, I think it's best left for elsewhere.

Exactly. This board never allows or entertains readers gripes about comic characters.

Nobody allows threads saying Power Girl should get rid of the hole in her chest.

Nobody wishes characters that aren't used be used more.

Nobody wishes for the introduction of characters.

Nobody asks for characters to be killed off.

Nobody asks for Superman's power set to change.

Nobody debates whether Black Panther and Storm should have been married.

Nobody begs for one side or the other to win the Civil War.

And, going along with all that precedent: let it be heard. This forum shall not be used to decry any inaction by any comic company. We have no such power and must, at all costs, stop delluding ourselves.

Let's draft the bylaw immediately.

Having said that, I think you're right that the point about what Marvel might do with our advise has been made.

Anyways, Darwin's power should allow him to be reactive and adaptive as the situation calls for it. There should be some lag time or something that has some element of danger to it for him, less he does become, as Mag X stated, a deus ex machina....hmm, here's a thought: he should play, if they choose to use his powers right, a crucial element in bringing back mutant life. Could Darwin be the key to reproduction of the mutant species? The power to adapt, survive....Beast didn't consider that did he? This would be brilliant if the writers actually used it. Darwin could be a very important character...with a "messiah complex" if they played it right. But somehow, I doubt they are going to use him at all....which team is he on again?

Interesting points all.

As far as lag time, that sounds much better than the ex machina possibility emerging.

But couldn't someone kill him then just by using a quick killing blow?

frog

11-12-2007, 01:12 PM

You're thinking of Brian M. I only meant to agree she is attractive and, since Brian and I had been disagreeing, chime in on a note of agreement, but, my apoagies having been proferred for all so offended, if you 1) think Brian means slave in any kind of an actual sense, and 2) think I agreed that a woman should be ensalved, and 3) think a real person who is a proud model and actress is on topic about how media portrays characters of color disproportionately, and 4) think I'm sexist, and 5) think a sexist person couldn't possibly have anything to offer on a topic about race, then by all means, stalk off in a well-earned victory huff.

I have not stalked off in a huff.

I have pointed out the disparity in your words and actions, as you certainly didn't jump on Brian for this perceived discrimination as you expect us to jump on Marvel's creative forces. Instead you just say you didn't intend it that way. That sounds exactly like what you accuse others of.

You can't have it both ways and expect me to agree with you.

Joe Acro

11-12-2007, 01:15 PM

Exactly. This board never allows or entertains readers gripes about comic characters.It does, but that wasn't my point. If you're hoping to somehow enlighten Marvel with these thoughts simply by posting, you're sadly mistaken. That was my point.

As for Darwin's powers, I'm at least glad Brubaker had the sense to put him on a team with limited close combatants. Although, I guess he could develop ranged powers sometime.

drwho

11-12-2007, 01:20 PM

Will darwin end up being the x-man that bites it?

frog

11-12-2007, 01:21 PM

Will darwin end up being the x-man that bites it?

I doubt it, because as has been pointed out, you'd really have to work hard to kill him.

drwho

11-12-2007, 01:27 PM

I doubt it, because as has been pointed out, you'd really have to work hard to kill him.

True but wouldnt it make the most impact showing a character that is supposed to be hard to kill actually biting the big one. Be like omfg predator x ate darwin. holy chit

Magneto X

11-12-2007, 01:28 PM

You can't have it both ways and expect me to agree with you.

Please. It also seems to indicate you've moved on from attacking the message to try to win by attacking the messenger. Even a hypocrit is right on some things they say, so don't celebrate so quick on the point. You're not being asked to agree with me, but my point. I'm not trying to impress you by my character, of which you know little, but by my analysis on the point at hand. Also: Nice try. Let's say I was decrying black people being portrayed as thugs in the comics. Then your charge of hypocrisy would be on point if I agreed with another poster that it was good that women are too often being portrayed as sex symbols in the comics. However, Ms. Hayek is a real person who actually wants to be a sex symbol in real life. Similarly, there are black people who actually are thugs. It does not follow that because I think the media over-represents black people as thugs that there are no black thugs. And similarly, just because I think the media over-represents women as sex symbols does not mean there are no women who are sex symbols. In any case, somehow Brian's sex slave comment hasn't made you say you now throw away all the things he said with regard to race consciousness. Your beef being pointed at me instead of Brian, who had more often agreed with you, belies your authenticity on this.

As for Darwin's powers, I'm at least glad Brubaker had the sense to put him on a team with limited close combatants. Although, I guess he could develop ranged powers sometime.

I hope he doesn't. That gamma-siphoning-fingercups has to be the last example of that crap, or he's a walking plot device!

frog

11-12-2007, 01:29 PM

True but wouldnt it make the most impact showing a character that is supposed to be hard to kill actually biting the big one.

Unfortunately that's possible. He wasn't among the X-Men shown in the teaser image that promised one would die, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's completely safe.

Fatguy

11-12-2007, 01:32 PM

Unfortunately that's possible. He wasn't among the X-Men shown in the teaser image that promised one would die, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's completely safe.

Wait...have I seen that image? Could you point me in its direction? :D

Jackob

11-12-2007, 01:36 PM

True but wouldnt it make the most impact showing a character that is supposed to be hard to kill actually biting the big one. Be like omfg predator x ate darwin. holy chit

but then he would evolve into stomach acid or become chewy and undigestable.

frog

11-12-2007, 01:38 PM

Please. Nice try. Let's say I was decrying black people being portrayed as thugs in the comics. Then your charge of hypocrisy would be on point if I agreed with another poster that it was good that women are too often being portrayed as sex symbols in the comics. However, Ms. Hayek is a real person who actually wants to be a sex symbol in real life. Similarly, there are black people who actually are thugs. It does not follow that because I think the media over-represents black people as thugs that there are no black thugs. And similarly, just because I think the media over-represents women as sex symbols does not mean there are no women who are sex symbols. In any case, somehow his sex slave comment hasn't made you say you now throw away all the things he said with regard to race consciousness. Your beef being pionted at me instead of Brian, who had more often agreed with you, belies your authenticity on this.

That's a really weak rebuttal, Magneto X. It doesn't matter if Selma actually desires to be a sexual servant. The implications of the comment are still sexist, alluding to past generations that have viewed women as only of value for their appearance.

And yes, my beef is with you because you are the one displaying the double standard and hypocrisy. Brian only figures into this in that his comment lead to your revelation of pretending virtues that you do not possess.

drwho

11-12-2007, 01:38 PM

but then he would evolve into stomach acid or become chewy and undigestable.

I think darwin could be interesting with his powers, but the way he comes off to me is as a dumbed down version of night crawler.

jester1436

11-12-2007, 01:38 PM

Please. Nice try. Let's say I was decrying black people being portrayed as thugs in the comics. Then your charge of hypocrisy would be on point if I agreed with another poster that it was good that women are too often being portrayed as sex symbols in the comics. However, Ms. Hayek is a real person who actually wants to be a sex symbol in real life. Similarly, there are black people who actually are thugs. It does not follow that because I think the media over-represents black people as thugs that there are no black thugs. And similarly, just because I think the media over-represents women as sex symbols does not mean there are no women who are sex symbols. In any case, somehow his sex slave comment hasn't made you say you now throw away all the things he said with regard to race consciousness. Your beef being pionted at me instead of Brian, who had more often agreed with you, belies your authenticity on this.

I'm sorry, but in your attempt to somehow bridge a conflict over race, both you and Brian decided Salma Hayek should be a sexual slave. You jumped from bickering over racism to unifying yourselves over the objectification of a woman - and not a white or black woman, but an exotic other to both of you.

I have never once heard Salma say publicly, "I want to be a sex symbol." I doubt any actress or woman in the public eye would want to be positioned as unsexy, but there is an expectation that they MUST be sexy and sexualized

Frog pointed it towards you because YOU are the one complaining about inequalities of representation and treatment of a specific group - not Brian. Your willingness to go in that direction punches a hole in the respectability of your constructed demeanor in this thread.

frog

11-12-2007, 01:39 PM

Wait...have I seen that image? Could you point me in its direction? :D

Oh dear, that was a while back. It was an image that somebody scanned from a Wizard article. Ask in the Messiah Complex thread, surely someone still has it.

frog

11-12-2007, 01:43 PM

Please. It also seems to indicate you've moved on from attacking the message to try to win by attacking the messenger. Even a hypocrit is right on some things they say, so don't celebrate so quick on the point. You're not being asked to agree with me, but my point. I'm not trying to impress you by my character, of which you know little, but by my analysis on the point at hand.

My dear, how do you expect to win agreement if you can't practice what you preach? How can I agree with your analysis when you refute it by your very own actions?

Your equivocations grow tedious.

Brian M.

11-12-2007, 01:46 PM

I'm sorry, but in your attempt to somehow bridge a conflict over race, both you and Brian decided Salma Hayek should be a sexual slave. You jumped from bickering over racism to unifying yourselves over the objectification of a woman - and not a white or black woman, but an exotic other to both of you.

I have never once heard Salma say publicly, "I want to be a sex symbol." I doubt any actress or woman in the public eye would want to be positioned as unsexy, but there is an expectation that they MUST be sexy and sexualized

Frog pointed it towards you because YOU are the one complaining about inequalities of representation and treatment of a specific group - not Brian. Your willingness to go in that direction punches a hole in the respectability of your constructed demeanor in this thread.

I was just trying to make a joke...

frog

11-12-2007, 01:47 PM

I was just trying to make a joke...

And now you've unwittingly brought down the entire thread! :D

jester1436

11-12-2007, 01:50 PM

I was just trying to make a joke...

I know, but his response - along with how he's acted in this thread regarding representations black characters - made it more than that.

Fatguy

11-12-2007, 01:51 PM

And now you've unwittingly brought down the entire thread! :D

Brought it down?

That would imply that it was productive ;)

Which this thread hasnt been in forever. Darwin is an OK character, I guess, but people dont care 36 pages about him. This entire thread has become a circle argument, which only slightly has ANYTHING to do with Darwin.

EDIT: pardon me, 45 pages.

Brian M.

11-12-2007, 01:52 PM

I do wanna go on record as saying that if Ms. Hayek was willing I would gladly test the upper limits of human dexterity with her.

Magneto X

11-12-2007, 01:59 PM

Your equivocations grow tedious.

And your selected quotes and pithy but selective and indirect jabs are rather unpersuasive on the topic, now aren't they?

punches a hole in the respectability of your constructed demeanor in this thread.

Yawn. And if there were twenty posts of mine saying "We should be demanding more representation of characters of color because of my demeanor" then you'd have a point, I suppose. But Martin Luther King's infidelity is little ammunition as to whether segregation should have ended. Similarly, Malcolm X's strict fidelity doesn't advance his theories of black nationalist economics very well, now does it? MLK was de-segregation's main spokeman for a time, but not it's only one, and he wouldn't have done well if he'd relied on his own example instead of his cogent reasoning. But perhaps you think you've found an easier battle? I'd be happy to agree with any character flaw you want if that's what you need to conceed on the issue that Marvel needs to work much harder on realistic depictions of racial inclusion. Or perhaps, if we want to get personal, you can detail the work that you've done on either media bias? Or we could stick to the thread topic.

While Brian's sex slave comment is regrettable, I think the term has come to mean role play for most people, and not some kind of way to traffick a well known actress as a servant, but word smith you will, when concept smithing get's too tough. Regardless, my apolagies to all who thought Brian meant actual slavery or anything other then concentual sex. As far as whether an anti-racist is allowed, by apolagists for white dominnace in comic sprining to life as strict feminists for the first time on this board, to think an actress is sexy: my argument is not for removing each and every feature that has been streotyped in the past, but for the expression of our full humanities in the media, and you have to go much farther afield to apply such a rule I never proposed to people's real lives. While you'll find my film collection has far more independent films with thoughtful portrayals of women than the bimbo fare, I certainly don't begruge anyone for emphasizing any part of their humanity. Our full humanity includes intelligence, attractiveness, charisma, courage, toughness etc. It does not follow that if one thinks toughness is portrayed too much for black characters or attractiveness for female characters, that Muhammad Ali was not tough and Salma Hayek is not attractive. And that's assuming that was the point, rather than the numerical lack of characters of color and the tendency of those few to be given white features. You need a complicated dance, of exploding my point into general anti-stereotype in any form real or fiction, and then imploding it back down to say no single person can act out in any way that might fit their stereotype, in order to make your nonpoint that doesn't directly address whether Darwin and Storm's creations signal unconscious tendency to over-portray white characters and white characteristics on the few characters of color.

Magneto X

11-12-2007, 02:32 PM

I think darwin could be interesting with his powers, but the way he comes off to me is as a dumbed down version of night crawler.

His personality, yeah. Nightcrawler's only persaonlity trait, aside from his early swashbuckling fantasy and his later religiosity, was that he was a nice guy. Darwin's been portrayed as just a nice guy. A lot of people are I suppose, but given his history you'd think he might be more complex.

Magneto X

11-12-2007, 02:34 PM

True but wouldnt it make the most impact showing a character that is supposed to be hard to kill actually biting the big one. Be like omfg predator x ate darwin.

That would be a leap downward in powers. He's bascially at least unkillable. And at most unstoppable. I'd like to first defeat the unstoppable thing with evolving some kind of thinking mutations (gamma suckage, teleportational suckage, etc). He'd be too weakened though, IMO, if he can't deal with teeth after he's already dealt with laser beams and turing into energy to survive in outer space.

frog

11-12-2007, 03:34 PM

And your selected quotes and pithy but selective and indirect jabs are rather unpersuasive on the topic, now aren't they? I imagine little can persuade the closed mind of someone who is convinced that they are right and are impervious to reason. However, I enjoy my wordplay and others have evidenced enjoyment as well!:)

Yawn. And if there were twenty posts of mine saying "We should be demanding more representation of characters of color because of my demeanor" then you'd have a point, I suppose. But Martin Luther King's infidelity is little ammunition as to whether segregation should have ended. Similarly, Malcolm X's strict fidelity doesn't advance his theories of black nationalist economics very well, now does it? MLK was de-segregation's main spokeman for a time, but not it's only one, and he wouldn't have done well if he'd relied on his own example instead of his cogent reasoning. But perhaps you think you've found an easier battle? I'd be happy to agree with any character flaw you want if that's what you need to conceed on the issue that Marvel needs to work much harder on realistic depictions of racial inclusion. Or perhaps, if we want to get personal, you can detail the work that you've done on either media bias? Or we could stick to the thread topic.

While Brian's sex slave comment is regrettable, I think the term has come to mean role play for most people, and not some kind of way to traffick a well known actress as a servant, but word smith you will, when concept smithing get's too tough. Regardless, my apolagies to all who thought Brian meant actual slavery or anything other then concentual sex. As far as whether an anti-racist is allowed, by apolagists for white dominnace in comic sprining to life as strict feminists for the first time on this board, to think an actress is sexy: my argument is not for removing each and every feature that has been streotyped in the past, but for the expression of our full humanities in the media, and you have to go much farther afield to apply such a rule I never proposed to people's real lives. While you'll find my film collection has far more independent films with thoughtful portrayals of women than the bimbo fare, I certainly don't begruge anyone for emphasizing any part of their humanity. Our full humanity includes intelligence, attractiveness, charisma, courage, toughness etc. It does not follow that if one thinks toughness is portrayed too much for black characters or attractiveness for female characters, that Muhammad Ali was not tough and Salma Hayek is not attractive. And that's assuming that was the point, rather than the numerical lack of characters of color and the tendency of those few to be given white features. You need a complicated dance, of exploding my point into general anti-stereotype in any form real or fiction, and then imploding it back down to say no single person can act out in any way that might fit their stereotype, in order to make your nonpoint that doesn't directly address whether Darwin and Storm's creations signal unconscious tendency to over-portray white characters and white characteristics on the few characters of color.

There's nothing complicated about this at all. You keep squirming away from the fact that you have done exactly what you claim to deplore in others and that's all there is to it. Unless a moderator decides to delete your post you can't escape it. You have neatly caught yourself in a trap of your own design.

Magneto X

11-12-2007, 03:49 PM

I imagine little can persuade the closed mind of someone who is convinced that they are right and are impervious to reason

I wish I could be as open minded as you've been proving yourself to be.
Tell me, what have you learned about how race is portrayed in comics?

There's nothing complicated about this at all. ... the fact that you have done exactly what you claim to deplore

Exactly! With no complication, I have surely done the exact thing!
(Which, even if true, has little bearing on whether my original point is true, but nonetheless ... )
Because I've created a comic world and made the characters overwhelmingly white!
Wait ... you didn't mean "exactly" did you?
So I created a comic world and made the characters overhwelmingly black! (Not even sure that would be exactly but, no anyway)
No. Gotta get farther away from exactly. Not even almost exactly.
I created a comic world. No, help the guy out, Magneto X, help him out some more.
I created a non-comic but still a media world and made the characters overwhelmingly men?
Still no. ... You know, instead of "exactly" or even close to, could you mean, "something different, but something bad, and I'd like to argue is just as bad, you know, as a means to change the topic?" because I suppose eventually we could parse out whatever tortured theory you're trying to advance and, even if we conceded it was a fair critique, try and connect it to something useful in attacking the greater argument you've stopped talking about now (or more likely, decide it doesn't change a thing about Marvel's responsibility here), but you'll have to do the dot connecting because:
"nothing complicated about it" is the least true thing you've said in this thread.
I don't know what's harder, making your analogy "not complicated" or understanding what "done exactly" means in Bizzaro world.

Don't worry about explaining it though. Whatever your opinion on sex symbols is irrelevant as to what Marvel should do about inclusion, people of color-wise or any kind of inclusion.

Magneto X

11-12-2007, 03:58 PM

pardon me, 45 pages.

Well, sure, but the boobs thread has gone on almost as long as has nothing to do with anything. :D Darwin's an interesting character. Even if he wasn't the character of color, he's a powerful new member of the X-Men who has disapeared and his power set is cool.

Fatguy

11-12-2007, 03:59 PM

Well, sure, but the boobs thread has gone on almost as long as has nothing to do with anything. :D Darwin's an interesting character. Even if he wasn't the character of color, he's a powerful new member of the X-Men who has disapeared and his power set is cool.

lol there's a boobs thread?

And of course that one went on forever...EVERYBODY loves boobs! :p

Jackob

11-12-2007, 03:59 PM

Well, sure, but the boobs thread has gone on almost as long as has nothing to do with anything. :D Darwin's an interesting character. Even if he wasn't the character of color, he's a powerful new member of the X-Men who has disapeared and his power set is cool.

i do hope he finds a place to shine in the x-world.

Jackob

11-12-2007, 04:01 PM

lol there's a boobs thread?

And of course that one went on forever...EVERYBODY loves boobs! :p

those we are the world songs to bring people together, should just be about boobs and they would work better.

Magneto X

11-12-2007, 04:06 PM

Anyone know if Darwin has any siblings?

Brian M.

11-12-2007, 04:08 PM

Boobs = Good.

Jackob

11-12-2007, 04:09 PM

Anyone know if Darwin has any siblings?

i think that darwins dad left his mom right after he was born. so he might have half siblings

actually when he was 4

Magneto X

11-12-2007, 04:45 PM

Cool. Since I'm being told to give up on a brown Darwin, and because the guy has limited personality anyway, maybe it's time to bring a brown and feisty Darwina into the picture, eh? :D

Pro

11-12-2007, 05:36 PM

EVERYBODY loves boobs!

How long exactly have you been on the x-forums now?

frog

11-12-2007, 07:00 PM

I wish I could be as open minded as you've been proving yourself to be.
Tell me, what have you learned about how race is portrayed in comics?

Exactly! With no complication, I have surely done the exact thing!
(Which, even if true, has little bearing on whether my original point is true, but nonetheless ... )
Because I've created a comic world and made the characters overwhelmingly white!
Wait ... you didn't mean "exactly" did you?
So I created a comic world and made the characters overhwelmingly black! (Not even sure that would be exactly but, no anyway)
No. Gotta get farther away from exactly. Not even almost exactly.
I created a comic world. No, help the guy out, Magneto X, help him out some more.
I created a non-comic but still a media world and made the characters overwhelmingly men?
Still no. ... You know, instead of "exactly" or even close to, could you mean, "something different, but something bad, and I'd like to argue is just as bad, you know, as a means to change the topic?" because I suppose eventually we could parse out whatever tortured theory you're trying to advance and, even if we conceded it was a fair critique, try and connect it to something useful in attacking the greater argument you've stopped talking about now (or more likely, decide it doesn't change a thing about Marvel's responsibility here), but you'll have to do the dot connecting because:
"nothing complicated about it" is the least true thing you've said in this thread.
I don't know what's harder, making your analogy "not complicated" or understanding what "done exactly" means in Bizzaro world.

Don't worry about explaining it though. Whatever your opinion on sex symbols is irrelevant as to what Marvel should do about inclusion, people of color-wise or any kind of inclusion.

:D I've learned that we can waste a lot of time reading endless complaints followed by endless cop-outs.

Flâneur

11-12-2007, 10:03 PM

lol there's a boobs thread?

And of course that one went on forever...EVERYBODY loves boobs!
You haven't been here for very long, have you?

Fatguy

11-12-2007, 10:05 PM

How long exactly have you been on the x-forums now?

You haven't been here for very long, have you?

lol I have been here for quite a while....

WHY?!? Did I miss something?

If you mean everybody here is gay, therefore not in love with boobs, I know! I was kidding!

Dagger

11-13-2007, 08:51 AM

lol I have been here for quite a while....

WHY?!? Did I miss something?

If you mean everybody here is gay, therefore not in love with boobs, I know! I was kidding!
There should be an I love cocks thread, and it would fill up beyond a million posts in no time!

Joe Acro

11-15-2007, 02:25 PM

He's an odd brown/gray/white mix of color, but that's his color. The best you can hope for is a change in the degree of that color, as characters' skin colors do not change without reason, even from colorist to colorist.

It seems I was mistaken. (http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0711/14/firsts.htm)

Although I could argue that it's an alternate reality, and doesn't quite count.;)

Jackob

11-15-2007, 02:53 PM

It seems I was mistaken. (http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0711/14/firsts.htm)

Although I could argue that it's an alternate reality, and doesn't quite count.;)

he is still kind of gray in that.

Magneto X

11-15-2007, 02:59 PM

It seems I was mistaken. (http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0711/14/firsts.htm)

Although I could argue that it's an alternate reality, and doesn't quite count.;)

Is that Darwin going all Mr. Fantastic stretchy in order to dodge something?
Cuz that's frustrating. It's like his power is to have any power (teleportation, energy drain) he can think of. That's a f*ed up power. It was with Cassandra Nova, it was with Lifeguard, it is with Darwin.

Joe Acro

11-15-2007, 03:24 PM

Is that Darwin going all Mr. Fantastic stretchy in order to dodge something?
Cuz that's frustrating. It's like his power is to have any power (teleportation, energy drain) he can think of. That's a f*ed up power. It was with Cassandra Nova, it was with Lifeguard, it is with Darwin.I think he adapted to the hectic situation by becoming stretchy. I'm not saying it's good, but that could be the explanation.

Magneto X

11-15-2007, 03:51 PM

I think he adapted to the hectic situation by becoming stretchy. I'm not saying it's good, but that could be the explanation.

I know. But by logical extention he can do anything then. How does his body sense "hectic"? When does it decide to teleport? Get hard, or soft, or absorby. Why would it "give" Darwin powers he has to then activate (like the siphon fingers or Mr. Fantastic powers)? What if Darwin slips or is mind controled? It makes sense just to make his body immune to that danger, then to give him some dodging power. And why not just make him invulnerable instead of a random power of the week. He's becoming a plot device that future writers will refuse to use.

Pro

11-15-2007, 06:25 PM

I know. But by logical extention he can do anything then. How does his body sense "hectic"? When does it decide to teleport? Get hard, or soft, or absorby. Why would it "give" Darwin powers he has to then activate (like the siphon fingers or Mr. Fantastic powers)? What if Darwin slips or is mind controled? It makes sense just to make his body immune to that danger, then to give him some dodging power. And why not just make him invulnerable instead of a random power of the week. He's becoming a plot device that future writers will refuse to use.

I agree. Love the character, but they should stick to basic survival mutations that are triggered by danger. Regeneration makes the most sense when shot, body armor should be the second most logical survival upgrade if shot repeatedly, then the armor upgrades until it can withstand the bullets. The assailant grabs a torch and lights Darwin. Darwin becomes immune to fire.
The assailant grabs a Molecular Irradiator Raygun and blasts Darwin. Darwin collapses but his body develops immunity to radiation poisoning and destroys the cancer. Finally the villain drops a 50 ton block of metal on Darwin who turns to water and seeps away.

As he slowly reconstitutes the villain grabs a girl and threatens to kill her.
Darwin is useless. His power is defensive. He can't save the girl with his power. He surrenders and is tossed in a jail with bars. Darwin can't escape because he isn't in danger so his power isn't triggered.

That's how i want to see him written. Defensive he is pretty much immune, offensively he is just a human being and his powers are triggered by immediate danger to himself.

CJ Lentze

11-16-2007, 05:50 AM

I agree. Love the character, but they should stick to basic survival mutations that are triggered by danger. Regeneration makes the most sense when shot, body armor should be the second most logical survival upgrade if shot repeatedly, then the armor upgrades until it can withstand the bullets. The assailant grabs a torch and lights Darwin. Darwin becomes immune to fire.
The assailant grabs a Molecular Irradiator Raygun and blasts Darwin. Darwin collapses but his body develops immunity to radiation poisoning and destroys the cancer. Finally the villain drops a 50 ton block of metal on Darwin who turns to water and seeps away.

As he slowly reconstitutes the villain grabs a girl and threatens to kill her.
Darwin is useless. His power is defensive. He can't save the girl with his power. He surrenders and is tossed in a jail with bars. Darwin can't escape because he isn't in danger so his power isn't triggered.

That's how i want to see him written. Defensive he is pretty much immune, offensively he is just a human being and his powers are triggered by immediate danger to himself.

You would be okay with Darwin having the ability to turn to water after being squashed under 50 tons of metal? Isn't this AS contrived as the teleporting away he did in World War Hulk?

If Darwin were imprisoned in a cell with bars, why wouldn't he be able to use his powers to adapt to that? I'd like to see his powers help him beyond battle situations or countering threats. If he were imprisoned, he'd try to adapt so he can get out. He may not be in immediate danger, but he perceives that he is imprisoned, which is not good for his survival because he would be dependent on his jailers (for food and the like), and that creates insecurities because a living being wants to be in control of their life. So I think he'd be able to adapt to imprisonment as well as to attacks.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like Darwin as a defensive player on the X-Teams myself, especially because every new and important character seems to be a 'blaster' these days. I just think is power is more than just catching what comes at him and changing his body structure accordingly.

Does Darwin's body 'remember' his old adaptations, at least for a while? They are genetic mutations, right? Do they revert back immediately, or does he keep 'em stored in his memory somewhere, or what?

ProfeZZor X

11-16-2007, 06:21 AM

For those that have failed to understand the complexities of Darwin's powers, allow me to reitterate his abilities...

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=433588&pagenumber=1

Keep in mind, much like some mutants that have limited comtrol over their abilities, he to has been practicing on using them for more than just defensive purposes. His brief stint on Krakoa during "Deadly Genesis" was a testiment to that.

I mean what's the point of him being around if he can only defend himself? There HAS to be more to his powers than just that... Otherwise he'd be better off dead, in space or in permanent limbo.

CJ Lentze

11-16-2007, 06:34 AM

Well, all X-Men get martial arts training in the Danger Room anyway, which is why characters who have 'passive' powers [I hate to categorise mutant powers by terms of how much 'punch' they'd pack] such as Nightcrawler, Angel, Shadowcat can still be useful on the field, and attack if they need to. Same for Darwin, I'd imagine.

frog

11-16-2007, 06:41 AM

worstblogever

11-16-2007, 06:43 AM

If Darwin got thrown in prison, would he automatically evolve to have a digestion process that didn't require him having a poop chute?

Pro

11-16-2007, 06:59 AM

You would be okay with Darwin having the ability to turn to water after being squashed under 50 tons of metal? Isn't this AS contrived as the teleporting away he did in World War Hulk?
I don't think so. Adapting to Hulk's strength by teleporting away was weird. how is that adapting to the danger? It's running away from it. I don't adapt to fire by never getting near it. Turning to liquid form would prevent hinm from being squashed, other possibilities would be bones tough enough to withstand the pressure or the ability to phase through the metal block.
The whole concept behind Darwin's power is the ability to withstand danger, not to be able to run away from it.

I mean what's the point of him being around if he can only defend himself? There HAS to be more to his powers than just that... Otherwise he'd be better off dead, in space or in permanent limbo.

He can walk through fire to retrieve objects, he can swim underwater without drowning, he can walk through a rain of bullets without dying and pluck the weapons from the hands of his assailants, he can walk into a nuclear facility and seal a leak without dying, he can be the guy who flies the blackbird through a radiation storm without turning into a cosmic parrot. Plenty of situations where he can be usefull even if his powers are defensive.

Flâneur

11-16-2007, 07:16 AM

I wonder what would happen to Darwin if Rogue tried to touch him as she is now - would he turn into something inorganic or would his body try to survive the touch?

ProfeZZor X

11-16-2007, 07:54 AM

I wonder what would happen to Darwin if Rogue tried to touch him as she is now - would he turn into something inorganic or would his body try to survive the touch?

Good question.... The same goes with Darwin, if he touched Elixir's dark hand.

CJ Lentze

11-16-2007, 08:09 AM

I don't think so. Adapting to Hulk's strength by teleporting away was weird. how is that adapting to the danger? It's running away from it. I don't adapt to fire by never getting near it. Turning to liquid form would prevent hinm from being squashed, other possibilities would be bones tough enough to withstand the pressure or the ability to phase through the metal block.
The whole concept behind Darwin's power is the ability to withstand danger, not to be able to run away from it.

While there is significant difference between turning to water and turning to liquid, he'd still be accessing a complex superpower. Same with phasing. If Darwin could so easily get powers like liquifying and phasing, he would become what his fans and critics alike have feared; a deus ex machina character who can bail the team out of everything.

I've never seen Darwin's power defined as 'the ability to withstand danger' anywhere. I thought it was adaptibility in ANY situation.

EDIT: A means of running away better COULD be considered an adaptation to danger. Teleportation, I agree, would be too far-fetched.

If Darwin got thrown in prison, would he automatically evolve to have a digestion process that didn't require him having a poop chute?

I'd imagine he would evolve the ability to convert his own feces into nutrients. :D

I wonder what would happen to Darwin if Rogue tried to touch him as she is now - would he turn into something inorganic or would his body try to survive the touch?

Rogue's touch works immediately. I don't think his body would have time to adapt.

Joe Acro

11-16-2007, 10:24 AM

Rogue's touch works immediately. I don't think his body would have time to adapt.
I think he would be able to adapt to it, though. Like how when he tried to go through a protected field of lasers, he was harmed, but after stepping back and then trying again he wasn't. I imagine that his ability might allow him to adapt to Rogue and even Leech after at most a few encounters.

Magneto X

11-16-2007, 10:27 AM

I agree. Love the character, but they should stick to basic survival mutations that are triggered by danger. Regeneration makes the most sense when shot, body armor should be the second most logical survival upgrade if shot repeatedly, then the armor upgrades until it can withstand the bullets. The assailant grabs a torch and lights Darwin. Darwin becomes immune to fire.
The assailant grabs a Molecular Irradiator Raygun and blasts Darwin. Darwin collapses but his body develops immunity to radiation poisoning and destroys the cancer. Finally the villain drops a 50 ton block of metal on Darwin who turns to water and seeps away.

As he slowly reconstitutes the villain grabs a girl and threatens to kill her.
Darwin is useless. His power is defensive. He can't save the girl with his power. He surrenders and is tossed in a jail with bars. Darwin can't escape because he isn't in danger so his power isn't triggered.

That's how i want to see him written. Defensive he is pretty much immune, offensively he is just a human being and his powers are triggered by immediate danger to himself.

This is how I think it should be also, except that getting denser makes more sense for the 50 ton thing.

There is no "adaptation" to being in jail. How would his genes even know he was in jail and needed an adaptation? He should only change when he starts being hurt. So I suppose he could run into the wall, but the most likely adaptation to that would be becoming more durable so it wouldn't get him out of jail. Note he was "jailed" in a manner inside Vulcan's body, and he never freed himself because he was surviving. As long as he survives and is not in danger of dying, he shouldn't get a new power. And if he gets a new power, it should be very directly in response to the danger, not random and not overkill. If shouldn't develop a forcefield when armour will do. He shouldn't ever develop laser beams because that's too offensive.

RoguishGurl

11-16-2007, 10:51 AM

So what is the main difference between Darwin's and Lifeguard's power?

CJ Lentze

11-16-2007, 11:05 AM

I think he would be able to adapt to it, though. Like how when he tried to go through a protected field of lasers, he was harmed, but after stepping back and then trying again he wasn't. I imagine that his ability might allow him to adapt to Rogue and even Leech after at most a few encounters.

Yes, that is my favourite example of his powers. He touches the laser, it burns, he backs off, and his body has analysed the problem and makes counter-measures so he can step through the lasers.

But Rogue's power immediately takes away one's consciousness. It's quite possible that his body could adapt while the absorption takes place, but there would only be a small period of time for response. Unless his powers somehow continue when he falls unconscious.
The same goes for Leech. Before Darwin would be able to respond to Leech's power neutralising abilities, his powers would be either gone or weakening. The process of reactive evolution would have to be hella fast to counter the powers of either Rogue or Leech.

There is no "adaptation" to being in jail. How would his genes even know he was in jail and needed an adaptation? He should only change when he starts being hurt. So I suppose he could run into the wall, but the most likely adaptation to that would be becoming more durable so it wouldn't get him out of jail. Note he was "jailed" in a manner inside Vulcan's body, and he never freed himself because he was surviving. As long as he survives and is not in danger of dying, he shouldn't get a new power. And if he gets a new power, it should be very directly in response to the danger, not random and not overkill. If shouldn't develop a forcefield when armour will do. He shouldn't ever develop laser beams because that's too offensive.

His genes don't 'know' anything. They just define how he manifests. He perceives his surroundings with his senses. He knows in his mind that he is incarcerated. This is not beneficial for him, even though he could live in prison until he's old and grey. I'd imagine he also wants to thrive. To that end, he will evolve/adapt as well.

With Vulcan, he had assumed a symbiosis. He was content with that, because they had essentially become one being. He had given up his higher brain functions if I recall correctly. He didn't need to get out.

Joe Acro

11-16-2007, 11:19 AM

But Rogue's power immediately takes away one's consciousness. It's quite possible that his body could adapt while the absorption takes place, but there would only be a small period of time for response. Unless his powers somehow continue when he falls unconscious.
The same goes for Leech. Before Darwin would be able to respond to Leech's power neutralising abilities, his powers would be either gone or weakening. The process of reactive evolution would have to be hella fast to counter the powers of either Rogue or Leech.
I meant that he encounters the problem once. Rogue steals his power or Leech nullifies it. Then, once his power returns, it modifies his body so that can't happen again, like with the lasers. The only problem with that theory is that I don't know how long his body remembers problems.

For example, would he still be invulnerable to this lasers? I don't know.

CJ Lentze

11-16-2007, 11:31 AM

Magneto X

11-16-2007, 11:32 AM

His genes don't 'know' anything. They just define how he manifests. He perceives his surroundings with his senses. He knows in his mind that he is incarcerated. This is not beneficial for him, even though he could live in prison until he's old and grey. I'd imagine he also wants to thrive. To that end, he will evolve/adapt as well.

He adapts to his own desire? No No No. I'd hate that. His power is not to make him "thrive!" Just survive. He doesn't develop precognition just because he's player poker and becoming rich would be "beneficial for him." The obvious limit is that something is hurting or killing him, not that he perceives that something could be benefiticial.

With Vulcan, he had assumed a symbiosis. He was content with that, because they had essentially become one being. He had given up his higher brain functions if I recall correctly. He didn't need to get out.

He doesn't "need" to get our of prison either.

Maybe it's hopeless though if he can already learn languages like Shi'ar just becuase he decides he wants to.

Askani's Flame

11-16-2007, 11:38 AM

I meant that he encounters the problem once. Rogue steals his power or Leech nullifies it. Then, once his power returns, it modifies his body so that can't happen again, like with the lasers. The only problem with that theory is that I don't know how long his body remembers problems.

For example, would he still be invulnerable to this lasers? I don't know.

Maybe with Leech, but not with Rogue. One touch from her and he's dead. I'm not sold on Leech only because Leech negates powers, but it's more of chance than with Rogue.

I don't think his body retains the knowledge, just reacts and finds a quick fix for survival and then he returns to "normal".

Joe Acro

11-16-2007, 11:41 AM

Maybe with Leech, but not with Rogue. One touch from her and he's dead. I'm not sold on Leech only because Leech negates powers, but it's more of chance than with Rogue.I suppose with Leech he could just move out of the field, adapt, and move back in. He doesn't have the luxury with Rogue.

I don't think his body retains the knowledge, just reacts and finds a quick fix for survival and then her returns to "normal".Perhaps. Has that been made clear, though?

bluedmighty

11-16-2007, 11:43 AM

Magneto X

11-16-2007, 11:47 AM

I'm tired of limitations.

Darwin could be our look at a young Appoc.

I desperatly want himto be something like that.

It's about time that we had a Black/Hispanic (albeit ambiguously) Mutant that could do whatever he wanted. Whenever he wanted. Nice change from the norm.

yaknowme

:D

There is some excitement with that. But if his power is based on his desire, he's more of a Cassandro Nova than an Apocalypse. For all Apocalypse's power he's never manipulated time or altered probability, and presumably an unlimited Darwin could do both if he just decided it was beneficial.

Askani's Flame

11-16-2007, 11:53 AM

I suppose with Leech he could just move out of the field, adapt, and move back in. He doesn't have the luxury with Rogue.

Perhaps. Has that been made clear, though?

It hasn't, but it should be made clear at some point. We do know that he wasn't injured by the fire in his house and then wasn't injured by the intense flammage Xavier and Moira put him through testing his limits. Whether or not his body "remembers" or reacts instinctively I guess is up for debate.

Magneto X

11-16-2007, 12:11 PM

It hasn't, but it should be made clear at some point. We do know that he wasn't injured by the fire in his house and then wasn't injured by the intense flammage Xavier and Moira put him through testing his limits. Whether or not his body "remembers" or reacts instinctively I guess is up for debate.

Could be problematic if he remembers, or in other words, the adaptations stick around. He'd already be non-breathing, fireproof, stretchy, super-durable, etc. I can imagine a lot of letters to the comic asking for no-prizes becuase they keep forgetting something Darwin's already done. In time he'd have hundreds of adaptations.

CJ Lentze

11-16-2007, 12:16 PM

I'm not saying that he should just pop out a set of wings when he has to cross a ravine, or evolve plasma beams from his hands when he has to tunnel through a mountain.

If we make the parallel with actual evolution in nature -which I KNOW is a different thing entirely- you'll find that evolution -through all its intricate processes- has produced both means of simple survival (like wings of insects, carapaces/shells, and camouflage) as well as more offensive or even sneaky methods of ensuring and securing that same survival (which is where the web of spiders comes from, and some forms of mimicry).

I like the surviving aspect of his power myself, and I think that's the most important aspect of it. But both evolution and versatility encompass more than just toughening up to that which is thrown at you. That's what Darwin could work with. What he knows, what he perceives, and his body adapting in turn -subtly and passively- to suit his surroundings the best it can.

And no way should he be unlimited. I believe he's been identified as an Omega Mutant, but to Hades with that. Limits in addition to strengths are what make a character, especially a superhero or X-Man, interesting.

jarrod

11-16-2007, 12:22 PM

Darwin hasn't been classed Omega? Though the Darwin/Vulcan gestalt had an Omega signature...

CJ Lentze

11-16-2007, 12:33 PM

Darwin hasn't been classed Omega? Though the Darwin/Vulcan gestalt had an Omega signature...

Thought I saw him confirmed somewhere... may have been mistaken. And Darwin surviving as pure energy smacked of Omega level.

I hope I'm wrong, though! :)

jarrod

11-16-2007, 02:44 PM

Thought I saw him confirmed somewhere... may have been mistaken. And Darwin surviving as pure energy smacked of Omega level.

I hope I'm wrong, though! :)
I dunno it'd be a good twist and makes more sense than Vulcan being Omega at least.

Omega Darwin >>>>>> Omega Vulcan

Magneto X

11-16-2007, 02:49 PM

I dunno it'd be a good twist and makes more sense than Vulcan being Omega at least.

Omega Darwin >>>>>> Omega Vulcan

Darwin can just survive everything and, maybe do number of odd things in addition, but that's it. Vulcan can destroy shit. And turn off brain waves. Vulcan's omega. When he's bound with the three other dead X-men (including Darwin) he get's the plus.

jarrod

11-16-2007, 02:56 PM

Darwin can just survive everything and, maybe do number of odd things in addition, but that's it. Vulcan can destroy shit. And turn off brain waves. Vulcan's omega. When he's bound with the three other dead X-men (including Darwin) he get's the plus.
Meh, he just seems nebulously powerful... but that in itself doesn't mean he's an Omega. And he was only idenified as an Omega when he was combined with Darwin/Petra/Sway, he hasn't been examined on his own (on panel).

Omega's about limitless potential... I think Darwin seems a closer fit to that than Vulcan, who's artificially peaked already (though admittedly at a very high level).

HeckBoy

11-16-2007, 11:25 PM

Has Darwin been anywhere since he got back from space? Is he going to be in compleX?

Magneto X

11-17-2007, 11:09 AM

Meh, he just seems nebulously powerful... but that in itself doesn't mean he's an Omega. And he was only idenified as an Omega when he was combined with Darwin/Petra/Sway, he hasn't been examined on his own (on panel).

Omega's about limitless potential... I think Darwin seems a closer fit to that than Vulcan, who's artificially peaked already (though admittedly at a very high level).

People argue about whether Magneto is omega and, whether they should, Vulcan is Magneto and more, he controls any energy and can travel and survive forever in space. He's pretty easy for me to believe as an Omega. More than Elixir for instance.

Has Darwin been anywhere since he got back from space?

A bit. Fought the Hulk with stupid powers and then teleported away.

RolandJP

12-31-2007, 09:37 AM

Darwin to X-factor= teh awesome!!

CJ Lentze

12-31-2007, 11:06 AM

I'd have preferred that he stay on one of the X-Men teams, but at least this is way better than limbo.

w0000t w000000000000t!!!

Affinity

12-31-2007, 11:17 AM

Darwin in X-Factor is amazing. I'm happy because I know PAD will rock him so hard.

Come To Deathstrike

12-31-2007, 11:22 AM

I thought it was only rumours!!!!!
He was one of the two people I wanted in it.
Him and northstar
(Mainly as i want him out of Limbo)
Aaaah I'm happy.
=]

Pro

12-31-2007, 11:28 AM

I had hoped Darwin would end up in X-factor. Either that or stay with the professor. But PAD is my favorite writer so i'm happy.

RolandJP

03-05-2008, 07:18 PM

Anyone seen Darwin lately??

Mr. Earl Brooks

03-05-2008, 09:47 PM

We saw him in the background of a few Messiah Complex stuff, but no official/prominent role. I don't even think he had lines. He was just in the background reminding people that he wasn't cast into obscurity yet. As you probably read he's allegedly coming to X-Factor soon.

I love X-factor, and Darwin is probably my favorite mutant that has been created in recent years. As someone has already said, "PAD will rock him so hard."

protogarrett

03-06-2008, 10:51 AM

I am curious to his role in X-Factor. His character really needs some more rounding out. In space he was just dedicated to Xavier. I want some real character development before I make a hard opinion about him.

Pach!

03-06-2008, 11:21 AM

Mr. Earl Brooks

03-07-2008, 09:16 PM

For reals. I love Darwin's naivete. He seems like he's still reeling from the sort of rebirth that he went through. He has moments were he seems very child like.

Could be though that the lack of pupils gives him the "big doe-y eyes" feel.

RolandJP

07-21-2008, 08:29 PM

rejoices!!
::ends his rants about darwin being MIA::

http://www.comicbookresources.com/images/solicits/marvelcomics/200810-advance/XFACT36_cov.jpg

Frostbite883

07-22-2008, 10:14 AM

Will PAD still be the writer for Factor #36?

Home made ectoplasm

07-22-2008, 10:23 AM

rejoices!!
::ends his rants about darwin being MIA::

Are you aware you don't have to wait until #36?

He joined the cast in #33, out last week

RolandJP

07-22-2008, 10:25 AM

Are you aware you don't have to wait until #36?

He joined the cast in #33, out last week

I havent gotten to the LCS for my pulls yet. Now I really have something to look forward to this weds. Thanks

jarrod

07-22-2008, 10:27 AM

People argue about whether Magneto is omega and, whether they should, Vulcan is Magneto and more, he controls any energy and can travel and survive forever in space. He's pretty easy for me to believe as an Omega. More than Elixir for instance.
Omega classification's about potential, not ability. And Vulcan's artificially peaked already, he's clearly not limitless.

Darwin on the other hand...

psycwave

08-09-2008, 01:16 PM

DARWIN!!!!!

Just wanted to bump this back up.....

DDM

08-09-2008, 04:06 PM

rejoices!!
::ends his rants about darwin being MIA::

http://www.comicbookresources.com/images/solicits/marvelcomics/200810-advance/XFACT36_cov.jpg

It's Thriller Night (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtyJbIOZjS8).

Magneto X

08-22-2008, 02:46 PM

So after voicing my complaint (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=194982) with the latest X-Man of color with any real potential actually being as pale as Storm's hair and, at first glance, not an X-Man of color at all, Darwin has been browned again as of X-Factor #34 (http://marvel.com/news/comicstories.4562.Preview%7Ecolon%7E_X-Factor_%2334). She-Hulk specifically comments on his pigment suiting him better (I always thought so since his power is protective and pigment is more protective than paleness anyway) and Darwin smiles. Thanks, Marvel. We have one more mutant of color who looks like a mutant of color AND has some prettty bad-ass powers as well!

Then, after voicing my complaints (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=192548) about how the gods of white peoples (Norse, Greek) seem to be much more powerful than the gods of brown peoples, we are given the kick-assness of Mikaboshi who not only pawns Zeus but outsmarts the God Squad and kicks serious Skrull God ass as well in Incredible Herc #120 (http://marvel.com/catalog/?id=9375).

If they make Prodigy smarter than Pym and Gentle stronger than She-Hulk, I'll just claim persuasive victory!

happy happy
joy joy joy

Anybody got scans of a brown Darwin or conquering Mikaboshi will make my day

Kage Kisaragi

08-22-2008, 04:10 PM

...

.....

........

Oh man you so jinxed any continued development. Now Darwin is definitely going to die at some point, and Mizaboshi sounds Japanese so I assume he is. Prodigy and Gentle are probably gonna die in some up coming Mutant war.. (summers rebellion)

DaeJi

08-22-2008, 04:12 PM

................K, whatever makes you happy.

Nyssane

08-22-2008, 04:28 PM

Obviously She-Hulk was just complimenting him to get into his pants.

Beast

08-22-2008, 05:28 PM

So after voicing my complaint (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=194982) with the latest X-Man of color with any real potential actually being as pale as Storm's hair and, at first glance, not an X-Man of color at all, Darwin has been browned again as of X-Factor #34 (http://marvel.com/news/comicstories.4562.Preview%7Ecolon%7E_X-Factor_%2334). She-Hulk specifically comments on his pigment suiting him better (I always thought so since his power is protective and pigment is more protective than paleness anyway) and Darwin smiles. Thanks, Marvel. We have one more mutant of color who looks like a mutant of color AND has some prettty bad-ass powers as well!

Then, after voicing my complaints about how the gods of white peoples (Norse, Greek) seem to be much more powerful than the gods of brown peoples, we are given the kick-assness of Mikaboshi who not only pawns Zeus but outsmarts the God Squad and kicks serious Skrull God ass as well in Incredible Herc #120 (http://marvel.com/catalog/?id=9375).

If they make Prodigy smarter than Pym and Gentle stronger than She-Hulk, I'll just claim persuasive victory!

happy happy
joy joy joy

Anybody got scans of a brown Darwin or conquering Mikaboshi will make my day
You have a real obsessive fixation on skin color don't you.

XaviersMisprint

08-22-2008, 09:37 PM

its actually incredibly racist of you to tryo be counter to racism that much.

if we're looking for equality, we're to mix together so that no on notices differences in skin color. the skin color doesn't make a person or a fictional character, everything else does. the thing i don't get is why you want to take away the idea of equality and turn it into a necessary dominance. do you REALLY need different races THAT much you'd go out of your way to complain that someone isn't black? that sounds like someone complaining about someone being white. that's racist. i am the last person to ever call someone racist or prejudice, but this thread is exactly that. racist.

the fact that you pay THAT much attention to superficial differences is racist. ever since i was a kid, i never even realized that storm was black because it never had anything to do with her character except that she was from africa. the fact that it never occured to me she was "different" means that it DOESN'T MATTER. cool. she's a great character whether she was black, white, green, or indigo. the color doesn't mean anything...