Darwin

[Brian M.]

Just make everyone white, then we all can partake in the white privilage.

[Pach!]

True. I like his name. It would be nice he someone would call him by it once and a while. And, you know, stop turning albino for no good reason.

He's a very unique color. I don't think anyone else has his color, so I'd rather he stay like that.

[xmanson]

Being whiter makes life easier, so he turned white. Duh.

[Magneto X]

Being whiter makes life easier, so he turned white. Duh.

At least that's an explanation! :D

He's a very unique color. I don't think anyone else has his color, so I'd rather he stay like that.

Who else has his chalky color? Caliban. Nekra (another non-seeming person of color). Hepzibah Etc.

I think looking half-Black and half-Puerto Rican with a bald head and big eyes and long arms is unique enough.

Who else looks half-black and half Puerto Rican? How about he looks like that?

[Pach!]

At least that's an explanation! :D



Who else has his chalky color? Caliban. Nekra (another non-seeming person of color). Hepzibah Etc.

I think looking half-Black and half-Puerto Rican with a bald head and big eyes and long arms is unique enough.

Who else looks half-black and half Puerto Rican? How about he looks like that?

Well he looks better with the chalky skin so I hope he stays that way.

[Faded]

Rockslide? i thought he was italian. or is it a minority to be a psychic golem of himself?

I think he's considering Italians a minority. Some people consider them Hispanic, some consider them white; hey I'm willing to go with Jim on that one.

Only Monet, Storm, and Ororo really rock from that list though. But I'm not going to complain. Though there is a distinct lack in Asian males. But I'm not complaining!

[CyberHubbs]

I don't think short, nappy hair would look as cool in a strong wind, thus Storm's hair is flowing. And adds to her original Goddess status. Not just her powers, but also her looks.

All things considered, there is a lot more diversity in comics today than thirty years ago. Lets be honest, thirty years was NOT that long ago, either. Even back in the 80s, women and black and hispanics and asians were still struggling in how they were portrayed in pop culture. We got it pretty easy today.

And lets not forget teh gays.

[Blade X]

Those 2 countries were cited because they are close to 100% white, and they are not small countries at all. Brazil,Cuba,Panama, Most of the coast of Peru ..all have a lot of very white people.
And that depends if you're counting Spain.

More like those country's have a lot of people who LOOK white. MOST of the people in those country's are GENETICALLY RACIALLY MIXED. Like Brazilians, many people (NOT ALL) from other Latin American country's either tend to DENY their African and Native American ancestors or are COMPLETELY UNAWARE of their African and Native American roots. There's a reason why you RARELY ever see any dark skin/black Latinos (outside of being maids or servants) in MOST of those Spanish soap operas.

Spain, OTOH, is a EUROPEAN country. So MOST of the people in Spain are full blooded (well as full blooded as anyone is these days) white people.

[Blade X]

Rockslide? i thought he was italian. or is it a minority to be a psychic golem of himself?

Yep, he's Italian.

[Blade X]

I think he's considering Italians a minority. Some people consider them Hispanic, some consider them white; hey I'm willing to go with Jim on that one.

Some also consider them black.

[Faded]

Some also consider them black.

That's interesting!

I love learning new things!

[Pach!]

More like those country's have a lot of people who LOOK white. MOST of the people in those country's are GENETICALLY RACIALLY MIXED. Like Brazilians, many people (NOT ALL) from other Latin American country's either tend to DENY their African and Native American ancestors or are COMPLETELY UNAWARE of their African and Native American roots. There's a reason why you RARELY ever see any dark skin/black Latinos (outside of being maids or servants) in MOST of those Spanish soap operas.

Spain, OTOH, is a EUROPEAN country. So MOST of the people in Spain are full blooded (well as full blooded as anyone is these days) white people.

Do you just like posting random facts? Do you know what we were discussing?

A previous post said something about 4/13 hispanic characters did not look noticeably hispanic.

Which doesn't make sense, since hispanics can look white with blonde hair and blue eyes as well.

Now what is your point?

[Faded]

Jessica Alba?

[Blade X]

Do you just like posting random facts? Do you know what we were discussing?

A previous post said something about 4/13 hispanic characters did not look noticeably hispanic.

Which doesn't make sense, since hispanics can look white with blonde hair and blue eyes as well.

Now what is your point?

I know exactly what we are discussing.

The question that should be asked is do you remember what you wrote in your post that I responded to? You know the part where you said that MOST people in the 2 Latino country's you mentioned were 100% WHITE.

[Pach!]

I know exactly what we are discussing.

The question that should be asked is do you remember what you wrote in your post that I responded to? You know the part where you said that MOST people in the 2 Latino country's you mentioned were 100% WHITE.

Which was in response to a post that said blonde hair, blue eyes are unusual. When they're not.

EDIT: I didn't say the people were 100% white, I said those countries were almost 100% white, as in if you look at the people most of them are white.

[Faded]

Jessica Alba?

[Kalen O.]

Dude, whatever. One of my best friends' whole family is from Argentina, going five generations back that she can trace. She's whiter than I am, skin tone wise, with bright red hair, and freckles. She's also completely hispanic on both sides of her family, and damn proud of it, and her culture too. *Shrugs* She's white and hispanic. Somehow, the universe allows for that paradox without exploding, so maybe so can you.

[Blade X]

Which was in response to a post that said blonde hair, blue eyes are unusual. When they're not.

EDIT: I didn't say the people were 100% white, I said those countries were almost 100% white, as in if you look at the people most of them are white.

So let me get this straight. You are saying in terms of PHYSICAL APPEARANCE, they are 100% white NOT 100% GENETICALLY WHITE. Am I correct?

[Blade X]

Dude, whatever. One of my best friends' whole family is from Argentina, going five generations back that she can trace. She's whiter than I am, skin tone wise, with bright red hair, and freckles. She's also completely hispanic on both sides of her family, and damn proud of it, and her culture too. *Shrugs* She's white and hispanic. Somehow, the universe allows for that paradox without exploding, so maybe so can you.

I don't know if your post was addressed to me, so I apologize in advance if I'm wrong.

I NEVER said that Latinos from Argentina were ashamed of their Hispanic culture. MOST Latinos are PROUD of their HISPANIC CULTURE (which is their WHITE EUROPEAN ancestry and culture from Spain). I said that MANY (NOT ALL) Latinos either don't know about or try to deny their NON-WHITE NATIVE AMERICAN and/or BLACK AFRICAN ANCESTRY and CULTURE.

[Brian Cronin]

Racial issues are very much a part of this thread's existence, so I'm not going to say that stuff is off-topic, as it is not.

But come on, folks, the racial stuff has to SORT of tie into Darwin, and it's gone way afield from that.

-Brian

[Jake V]

Clearly, Darwin's skin turned white as a defense mechanism against racism.

[bluedmighty]

Clearly, Darwin's skin turned white as a defense mechanism against racism.

AGREED.

In an attempt to endear him to the larger, "universal", majority of comic book consumer.

In other words, Darwin has activated his mutant ability to "Pass".

Darwin "The Evolving Boy"

is really

Darwin "The self hating, Uncle T, wanna be, sell out boy"

[CyberHubbs]

AGREED.

In an attempt to endear him to the larger, "universal", majority of comic book consumer.

In other words, Darwin has activated his mutant ability to "Pass".

Darwin "The Evolving Boy"

is really

Darwin "The self hating, Uncle T, wanna be, sell out boy"

And yet it's still a better idea than Ravage 2099.

[Magneto X]

In an attempt to endear him to the larger, "universal", majority of comic book consumer.

In other words, Darwin has activated his mutant ability to "Pass".

:D


Darwin "The Evolving Boy"

is really

Darwin "The self hating, Uncle T, wanna be, sell out boy"

:D

Racial issues are very much a part of this thread's existence, so I'm not going to say that stuff is off-topic, as it is not.

But come on, folks, the racial stuff has to SORT of tie into Darwin, and it's gone way afield from that.

-Brian


Good point.

Bring back brown Darwin. We already have Caliban for the chalky-bald look!
No Caliban II. :mad: And no Gamma-Siphoning-finger-cups!!

[Diablito]

I like Caliban though....

[The Jeeper 2.0]

I hope Darwin is a part of this x-over. It really sucks when they create characters and then they disappear (i.e Maggott, Cecilia Reyes, Thunderbird). Well, you know what I mean. LOL.:evilsmile

[RolandJP]

Or... Marvel could simply not try to fill quotas and have the characters be designed as to how they would look cooler, or how artists and writers want. It worked for Storm. And in a company in which the 2nd most famous character is green and sometimes gray, it seems even sillier to say "a person should look like this or that".

Allow me to retort----said book IE X-men was designed as a metaphor for bigotry and racism. The lack of African American Males is startling. That would be like a book called X-men with mostly women characters. Errr wait, it would be like a book called Avengers with nothing to avenge. Errr what How about a book called Captain America with no...wait.


Seriously, people that play the quota card are uniformed. Most positions are filled through nepotism, or nephewism. To the point, when you tally the number of African American X-characters in the past that have met their end--Synch, Akashi, or who have been depowered its beyond reason.

Darwin's dissappearing act proves this.

[Blade X]

Allow me to retort----said book IE X-men was designed as a metaphor for bigotry and racism. The lack of African American Males is startling. That would be like a book called X-men with mostly women characters. Errr wait, it would be like a book called Avengers with nothing to avenge. Errr what How about a book called Captain America with no...wait.


Seriously, people that play the quota card are uniformed. Most positions are filled through nepotism, or nephewism. To the point, when you tally the number of African American X-characters in the past that have met their end--Synch, Akashi, or who have been depowered its beyond reason.

Darwin's dissappearing act proves this.

Well said. I agree with everything you said.

[CyberHubbs]

X-Men has a better ring to it than X-Folk.

Honestly, do people expect them to retcon the O5 to be black?

[bluedmighty]

X-Men has a better ring to it than X-Folk.

Honestly, do people expect them to retcon the O5 to be black?

Actually, I'm almost possitive that's not what he meant.

[Brian M.]

Actually, I'm almost possitive that's not what he meant.

Well complaining about the lack of ethnically diverse characters that were created 30-40yrs ago does no good. We're getting a lot more these days, so why not be happy with the progress. Or we could all just stand around and keep complaining...

[bluedmighty]

Well complaining about the lack of ethnically diverse characters that were created 30-40yrs ago does no good.

The poster was not complaining about the original X-men being "diverse".

What he was saying is that:

For a book that takes a "metaphorical" stab at racism and orther such social issues, the uneven introdution of ACTUAL minorities (I'm talking about American Black Folk, but to each their own) to thier cast, and thier subsuquent treatment, in this day and age, is inexcusable.

Not that it's wrong or unfair, just inexcusable (i.e. there is no excuse)


We're getting a lot more these days, so why not be happy with the progress. Or we could all just stand around and keep complaining...

The same way we should have just been happy with "freedom"?

Or Affirmitive action?

Would that make Darwin an "Affirmitive Hero"?

Complaining (at least in this arena) is how you affect a change.

How may of us plan on being writers?

Yet, how many of us spend good money to follow these adventures?

I don't think I'm asking for alot.

[Brian M.]

Who's happy w/ affrimative action? I think that's a crap program.

[bluedmighty]

Who's happy w/ affrimative action? I think that's a crap program.

:cool: On this we agree.

[Brian M.]

:cool: On this we agree.

I'm glad, I usually get called racist for hating that program.

Also, I'm not against the pressure from fans for more diverse characters, Hell I'm pushing for some action in my great state of Tennessee, tired of always being New York. But it's the looking back and putting a racist tinge on things that bother me. Not pointing fingers or anything, just a generalization.

[bluedmighty]

I'm glad, I usually get called racist for hating that program.

Welcome to the league :D
(What ever happened to free speech, opinions, and personal points of view?)

If I disagree with the war I'm un American.
If I disagree with Church i'm not a Christian.
If I want aa comic centerd around African Americans I'm considered racist.
If I think they should have let Bell stay home and consider his time served, I'm a racist.
If I think that BP and Storm belong together i'm conidered a racist.
If I think OJ is innocent I'm considered crazy and racist.

Not here, but dring my internet travels.


Also, I'm not against the pressure from fans for more diverse characters, Hell I'm pushing for some action in my great state of Tennessee, tired of always being New York. But it's the looking back and putting a racist tinge on things that bother me. Not pointing fingers or anything, just a generalization.

I understand where your comming from aand can agree to some extent.

I feel that things are the way they are now because of the past. To over come or repair, we have to find and face what's broken.

[Magneto X]

I'm glad, I usually get called racist for hating that program.

You certainly don't have to be racist for not liking affirmative action. But I do disagree. Both my parents were born before 1940. In 1940, even in the North, only FIVE-TENTHS of ONE PERCENT of black people went to college. Brown v. Board happened fifteen years later, and most states had done little about it fifteen years after that. A black person on average still owns less than one seventh of the wealth as a white person on average. Less than one-seventh. That's going to cure itself quickly? Not with inheritence, networking, nepotism and legacy admissions.

To imagine we'd still need some affirmative action during the very lifetimes of people who were so blatantly and legally discriminated against is common sense to me.

Especially for colleges allowing "geographical diversity points" and "legacy points" as most do.

[Magneto X]

Sidenote:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fKDP__q0pw&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4SJOU0FWO4

[bluedmighty]

Sidenote:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fKDP__q0pw&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4SJOU0FWO4

:D IFTFO

In the first sketch she noticably forgets to call him a Man in one thier back and forths.

[Magneto X]

Somehow beating out the even more offensive (hard to do) movie, Birth of a Nation, the film Gone With the Wind was the most successful box office grossing movie of all time; it still does well and is held in high regard by most Americans. It is a movie about happy slaves so dumb, frantic, loyal and foolish "I don't know nothin bout birthin no babies!" that they would be so utterly lost without their slavery, and the noble plantation owners being so victimized. And while actual slaves ran off when the Northern soldiers came through the South, the slaves of Gone With the Wind beg to stay with their masters and even run back to their masters and beg to be their slaves again. The book and movie are obvious enormous justifications of both white supremacy and slavery. But plenty of GWTW-fans (it did have some good acting and such) would say that is obsessing, being politically-correct and making too much of it. "It's just a movie. It's mostly about romance." Whatever. Rose colored glasses can get to crazy levels. It seems that some people wouldn't see a racial problem, much less racism, unless a klansman is actually hanging a black infant. And even then people would disagree apparently on that point, since in the Gone With the Wind novel has every Southern Gentleman as an active Klansman and Rhett Butler did lynch a black guy for making a comment about a white woman, and yet the story is still revered. But you actually say something, like less than 1% of heroes being black, and people say you're distrorting reality and making a big deal out of nothing. More likely most people are distorting to make nothing out of a big deal, the continuing vestiges of our historical white supremacy.

I asked RISQUE-INDIFFERENT YET FABULOUS Jim @ Marvel this on the Bendis boards:

We don't create characters to fill a quota on race or sexuality, honestly, ... As for future characters, their race and socio-economic background come from the story first, rather than filling any percieved void.


I'd say that hedges and confuses. To the extent something hasn't been done much, it is probably a source of original storymaking. Race and other backgrounds that have been under-explored are both "story" and "void-filling" at the same time. So he could be saying two completely different things here:

1) (What I'd like but am dubious) is that he is commited to filling those glaring and longstanding and unrealistic voids and racial skews and that he will work on doing so whenever good storytelling allows.

2) (What I think is more likely) is he won't think about it, but rather on storytelling from his, and other writers, predominantly white backgrounds and imaginations, so that .3% black characters might creep up to .5% over the next 50 years, but they'll sure praise themselves and pat themselvs on the back whenever a character of color is created under this "don't think about it, but praise yourself if it happens accidentally" system of self-perpetuating whiteness.


Wait more decades and decades for each perfect opportunity to introduce a character of color (why are these opportunities so rare?) meanwhile more and more white characters (both good and badly written) are introduced, skewing the Marvel race representation even more and, instead of moving forward in terms of a relistic proportion, actually moving things backwards? What would MLK think of such "don't worry about filling the voids" because good storymaking may require perpetuating a huge racial distortion?



"I had also hoped that the white moderate would reject the myth concerning time in relation to the struggle for freedom. Such an attitude stems from a tragic misconception of time, from the strangely rational notion that there is something in the very flow of time that will inevitably cure all ills."

"We will have to repent in this generation not merely for the hateful words and actions of the bad people but for the appalling silence of the good people."

"who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods ... who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable ... who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season."

"Human progress never rolls in on wheels of inevitability; it comes through the tireless efforts, and without this 'hard work, time itself becomes an ally of the forces of social stagnation."

"We must use time creatively, in the knowledge that the time is always ripe to do right."

"Now is the time to make real the promise"

[Post-It]

You certainly don't have to be racist for not liking affirmative action. But I do disagree. Both my parents were born before 1940. In 1940, even in the North, only FIVE-TENTHS of ONE PERCENT of black people went to college. Brown v. Board happened fifteen years later, and most states had done little about it fifteen years after that. A black person on average still owns less than one seventh of the wealth as a white person on average. Less than one-seventh. That's going to cure itself quickly? Not with inheritence, networking, nepotism and legacy admissions.

To imagine we'd still need some affirmative action during the very lifetimes of people who were so blatantly and legally discriminated against is common sense to me.

Especially for colleges allowing "geographical diversity points" and "legacy points" as most do.


Ok, so politics and racism aside.....

Darwin won't last. Most characters with reactive or adaptive never last long or are relegated to limbo. Just look at lifeguard and the spanish teenanger from New Warriors(i forget his name). My feelings towards him were indifference from the start. Once I heard his powers i just pictured him with a red shirt.

As for politics I completely agree w/ you. I am Puerto Rican, went to a top university, and am currently in a top tier law school. I experienced first hand odd looks and even once had a complete stranger angrily tell me her best friend was denied entrance and then demanded to know my SAT score and GPA. Although the shock on her face after hearing they were higher than her's was awesome :-). Thanks to public perception of AA blacks and latinos are now the first things cursed when someone is denied entrance from a school never mind the rich idiots whose parents cut the school a huge "donation" to get in. You learn to deal with the fact that whites, asians, arabs, and jews are automatically accepted as intellectual equals(until they prove otherwise) while latino and black students are not afforded that luxury. The sad part is that when you show that you are intelligent they all make the same three comments, "Oh you don't act Puerto Rican" or my personal favorite " You are white guy trapped in a Puerto Rican." or "You're not Puerto Rican your whiter than me." (Please note by whiter than me they mean in the method i present myself not skin tone, mine is very dark). That is just the way it is and always will be. This country is built on racism and intolerance which will never go away. Ellison said it best, " Play their game but never believe it, that much you owe yourself."

As for race in comics Brian M hit it on the head a while back. A majority of the readers are white males and really don't care if there are no minorities at all in comics(save of course for hot minority women). Messed up? I don't think so. I've never heard any of my black friends call for more whites in the NBA or latino friends complain that their too many latin players on a baseball team. That's just the way it is. Plus, when they do create latin characters they are horrible. By horrible I mean really really really really really really really bad. They even just ruined the only one I actually liked in Black Tarantula.

Sorry for the typos this is just a quick post in between studying for finals.

[sinjection]

Magneto X, I just want you to know brother, the ghost of sinjection is smiling down on your outstanding posts with great, great pride :)

I feel what you're posting. However, I fear that - until he is eventually killed off - Darwin is doomed to be Caliban's "cosmetic" twin brother. Whether this is a way of further diversifying Marvel's "diverse, re: black and persons of color" mutants by introducing "exotic" racial/ethnic blends, physical anomalies or sexual preferences...who is to say?

It is always a pleasure to read posts by Blueyedmighty, Blade X or yourself.

Darwin won't last. Most characters with reactive or adaptive never last long or are relegated to limbo. Just look at lifeguard and the spanish teenanger from New Warriors(i forget his name). My feelings towards him were indifference from the start. Once I heard his powers i just pictured him with a red shirt.

Let's hope Darwin bucks the trend of "the black male mutant curse."

I am Puerto Rican, went to a top university, and am currently in a top tier law school.

Congrats! As the saying goes: "Keep on keepin' on!" The "looks" and "comments" you've experienced is very much akin to those endured by other black and latino trailblazers. White Union Soldiers didn't think much of the Massachussetts 54th Regiment either. How dare those black men believe they could be soldiers in a war fought to free their people from slavery and preserve the Union which the heroics of Crispus Attucks, Salem Poor, Peter Salem and scores of other black men helped bring into being while fighting bravely in the Revolutionary War?


Plus, when they do create latin characters they are horrible. By horrible I mean really really really really really really really bad. They even just ruined the only one I actually liked in Black Tarantula.

I won't say that every black character created has been a bad character. What is notable however is this. Until very recently, no black character has ever wielded the type of power comparable to some of the more powerful white characters. Those black characters wielding such powers happen to be female, not male.

[Cayman]

Who cares if Darwin looks like an extra-terrestrial? Nightcrawler looks like a demon. Beast looks like a fairy-tale character. Mammomax looked like an elephant. The important thing is he's a cool character.

[Pach!]

It's a ridiculous complaint. If he were a black skinned character and then after 20 issues he suddenly turned gray it would be one thing, but the guy has been that color since his inception. That is the character's design. It makes for a better visual when he "evolves".

[sinjection]

Who cares if Darwin looks like an extra-terrestrial?

Magneto X seems to care. I care as well. It would be nice to see a black American/Puerto Rican character actually look like a black American/Puerto Rican.

As far as that goes, I'd rather like to see Cecilia Reyes involved in a passionate romantic relationship with a black American/Puerto Rican male character instead of being involved with and producing children with a bigfoot.

[Pach!]

Magneto X seems to care. I care as well. It would be nice to see a black American/Puerto Rican character actually look like a black American/Puerto Rican.

As far as that goes, I'd rather like to see Cecilia Reyes involved in a passionate romantic relationship with a black American/Puerto Rican male character instead of being involved with and producing children with a bigfoot.

This thread isn't about Cecilia Reyes.

And I prefer Darwin as he is now, as do many others. So he's fine.

His powers do need defining though. I wouldn't want him to become overpowered.

[Cayman]

Magneto X seems to care. I care as well. It would be nice to see a black American/Puerto Rican character actually look like a black American/Puerto Rican.

As far as that goes, I'd rather like to see Cecilia Reyes involved in a passionate romantic relationship with a black American/Puerto Rican male character instead of being involved with and producing children with a bigfoot.

The villagers who tried to kill Nightcrawler because of his appearance probably thought it would be nice to see a German guy actually look like a German guy. But he didn't because he's a mutant and some mutations involve non-standard body types.

[RoguishGurl]

Magneto X seems to care. I care as well. It would be nice to see a black American/Puerto Rican character actually look like a black American/Puerto Rican.

As far as that goes, I'd rather like to see Cecilia Reyes involved in a passionate romantic relationship with a black American/Puerto Rican male character instead of being involved with and producing children with a bigfoot.

But he's a mutant. Sometimes mutants don't always look like a regular human.

[sinjection]

The villagers who tried to kill Nightcrawler because of his appearance probably thought it would be nice to see a German guy actually look like a German guy. But he didn't because he's a mutant and some mutations involve non-standard body types.

Understood.

How many black male mutants - those who are still alive - look like black males? Now of those, how many black mutants who happen to be black American are recognizable as being such?

Cloak - my favorite - appears to be fairly normal...that is when the artists aren't drawing his face in that contorted, demonic leer.

Bling - No.

Darwin - No.

Prodigy - No longer a mutant.

Laura Dean - Black, beautiful female, yes. American? No.

The "blackness" of other attractive mutants have been in doubt

Storm

Bishop

Monet

Attractive white mutants - particularly white American mutants - abound. Not so for black American mutants, many of whom can't even seem to stay alive for long.

[Magneto X]

Magneto X, I just want you to know brother, the ghost of sinjection is smiling down on your outstanding posts with great, great pride :)

Thanks! :)

I feel what you're posting. However, I fear that - until he is eventually killed off - Darwin is doomed to be Caliban's "cosmetic" twin brother.

Apparently not even that, but Caliban's "long-lost" cosmetic twin brother. :(

Anyone want to start the "ONE CALIBAN IS ENOUGH CAMPAIGN!"

Maybe if we use a pro-Caliban angle on it we'll have more luck that asking for a brown Puerto Rican and black character.


http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f106/vancegathing/thebrowndarwin.jpg



How many black male mutants - those who are still alive - look like black males? Now of those, how many black mutants who happen to be black American are recognizable as being such?

Attractive white mutants - particularly white American mutants - abound. Not so for black American mutants, many of whom can't even seem to stay alive for long.

Exactly. So: less far-out excuse-making, more empathy, how about it people?


This thread isn't about Cecilia Reyes.

And I prefer Darwin as he is now, as do many others.

So he's fine.


You prefer him white? Others do too? So he's fine? Well, if all our collective minds could do was a quick majority poll, then that would be that. I thought we could examine how people of color are represented on average in this form of media. Maybe that's too much to expect.

But he's a mutant. Sometimes mutants don't always look like a regular human.

True. And mutant characters may be furry or have scales, or be blue or green, or have pointed ears ... that's not what I'm talking about, and you know it. More than 99% of the characters that play on Marvel's world-stage (actually, even aliens tend to have the caucasion color if they have any human color) are somehow caucasion. And somehow caucasion characters almost never have a mutation that makes them brown, much less a mutation that makes readers assume they are of a different race. Meanwhile, for the latest X-Man of color, people assume Darwin is white. The first significant X-Man of color was understood easily enough to be black but also "coincidentally" had blue eyes and long flowy hair. Storm, Nekra, Apocalypse and Shard also have non-brown or outright caucasion features. Heck, despite where he was born, somehow all of Apocalypse's descendants are pure caucasion! And other prominent characters of color were killed of. It wouldn't matter if there were plenty of characters of color. But there are very few, less than one percent, several times too few. And of those few charactesr of color, most are very atypical in appearance or the community they come from. So white readers see plenty of characters like them. And when black readers ask why they can't have have even a percent or two like them, we're basically told to forget about it.

[Cayman]

Understood.

How many black male mutants - those who are still alive - look like black males? Now of those, how many black mutants who happen to be black American are recognizable as being such?

Cloak - my favorite - appears to be fairly normal...that is when the artists aren't drawing his face in that contorted, demonic leer.

Bling - No.

Darwin - No.

Prodigy - No longer a mutant.

Laura Dean - Black, beautiful female, yes. American? No.

The "blackness" of other attractive mutants have been in doubt

Storm

Bishop

Monet

Attractive white mutants - particularly white American mutants - abound. Not so for black American mutants, many of whom can't even seem to stay alive for long.

Mutants don't always get to be attractive. Part of the appeal of the X-Men is looking beyond the physical appearance.

[Dagger]

Darwin was always meant to be an albino, but the colorist for the backup stories in DG got it wrong. Is it now wrong to have albino mutants? Does it take away from his character because he is an albino? Aren't the majority of people who are albino not in fact black?

[Pach!]

Thanks! :)



Apparently not even that, but Caliban's long-lost twin brother. :(

But ... I don't know. We shall see.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f106/vancegathing/thebrowndarwin.jpg




If all our collective minds could do was a quick majority poll, then that would be that. I thought we could examine how people of color are represented on average in this form of media. Maybe that's too much to expect.



True. And mutant characters may be furry or have scales, or be blue or green, or have pointed ears ... that's not what I'm talking about, and you know it. White characters almost never have a mutation that makes them brown, much less a mutation that makes readers assume they are of a different race. Meanwhile, for the latest X-Man of color, people assume Darwin is white. The first significant X-Man of color was understood easily enough to be black but also "coincidentally" had blue eyes and long flowy hair. Storm, Nekra, Apocalypse and Shard also have non-brown or outright caucasion features. Heck, despite where he was born, somehow all of Apocalypse's descendants are pure caucasion! And other prominent characters of color were killed of. It wouldn't matter if there were plenty of characters of color. But there are very few, less than one percent, several times too few. And of those few charactesr of color, most are very atypical in appearance or the community they come from. So white readers see plenty of characters like them. And when black readers ask why they can't have have even a percent or two like them, we're basically told to forget about it.






I strongly disagree. Darwin doesn't look white as in caucasian if that's what you mean. If people assume he's white well that says more about the people than the character.

And despite Storm blue eyes or flowy hair ...everyone considers her to be black. Isn't that what you're talking about? Recgnition?

I prefer Darwin to be that color because the X-men as a group, despite being almost 100% mutants don't have many physically mutated characters

[sinjection]

Mutants don't always get to be attractive. Part of the appeal of the X-Men is looking beyond the physical appearance.

Ahhh, but in this day of the sexualized X-Men....the "Sex-Men" if you will.... there seem to be enough visually appealing white characters - male and female - to keep the larger comicbook-reading demographic happy, entertained and titillated.

There is the lovely Storm. There is the lovely Cecilia Reyes. There is Bishop, but it seems he and Storm are related somehow, negating a "sex-men" thing happening there. Well who's left? Synch had something going on with the lovely Monet....until he was killed off. Too black. Too handsome. Too bad.

Storm was almost matched with a male character far beneath her in looks and class until she was rescued by T'Challa. Cecilia Reyes endured a horror that no human female should suffer. Monet is now getting it on with some white mutant's duplicate self.

Meanwhile, there is the black American/Puerto Rican mutant male Darwin who looks more like a maggot than Maggot ever did.

Not good.

[Cayman]

Ahhh, but in this day of the sexualized X-Men....the "Sex-Men" if you will.... there seem to be enough visually appealing white characters - male and female - to keep the larger comicbook-reading demographic happy, entertained and titillated.

There is the lovely Storm. There is the lovely Cecilia Reyes. There is Bishop, but it seems he and Storm are related somehow, negating a "sex-men" thing happening there. Well who's left? Synch had something going on with the lovely Monet....until he was killed off. Too black. Too handsome. Too bad.

Storm was almost matched with a male character far beneath her in looks and class until she was rescued by T'Challa. Cecilia Reyes endured a horror that no human female should suffer. Monet is now getting it on with some white mutant's duplicate self.

Meanwhile, there is the black American/Puerto Rican mutant male Darwin who looks more like a maggot than Maggot ever did.

Not good.

I don't really see the value in only people of the same ethnicity pairing up myself, so I don't really share your horror over such couplings.

[Pwood]

Ahhh, but in this day of the sexualized X-Men....the "Sex-Men" if you will.... there seem to be enough visually appealing white characters - male and female - to keep the larger comicbook-reading demographic happy, entertained and titillated.

There is the lovely Storm. There is the lovely Cecilia Reyes. There is Bishop, but it seems he and Storm are related somehow, negating a "sex-men" thing happening there. Well who's left? Synch had something going on with the lovely Monet....until he was killed off. Too black. Too handsome. Too bad.

Storm was almost matched with a male character far beneath her in looks and class until she was rescued by T'Challa. Cecilia Reyes endured a horror that no human female should suffer. Monet is now getting it on with some white mutant's duplicate self.

Meanwhile, there is the black American/Puerto Rican mutant male Darwin who looks more like a maggot than Maggot ever did.

Not good.

He looks like that because of his evolutionary powers. I mean, when I first saw Darwin, I thought he looked rather bland. But now I know that is for a reason.

As for him being white, yes he is, but he is not "caucasian white". He is more like albino white.

It's not some mockery, it's just to give him an appearance that suits his powers.

[frog]

Smart women like Storm and Cecilia don't care that much for looks. They place more value on things like decency, personality and intelligence.

[Magneto X]

don't care that much for looks

Which is why there are so many ugly superheroes in relationships?


I prefer Darwin to be that color because the X-men as a group, despite being almost 100% mutants don't have many physically mutated characters

He looks just like Caliban, so the "unique" argument is hardly impressive. But I do think it would make sense that more mutants would be deformed like some of the Morlocks. Unfortunately, that dream went out the window when we were left with the 198. And the 198 is mostly white, mostly American, and overwhelmingly pretty. Before the 198 we had hundreds of white mutants for every one black mutant. Going down to 198 was an opportunity to reflect real word demographics. Instead they blew that opportunity, and instead killed off or depowered more of the very few black characters. The problem is not that one black mutant, Storm, has hair with cacasion texture AND blue eyes AND no Swahili ability, or that another African, Apocalypse, is both discolored AND given hair with caucasion texture AND given all white folks as his descendants, or even that others, like Shola Inkosi and Synch, were depowered or killed off. The problem is that, given the lack of black representation, another of the very few, very rare black mutants, like the most prominant one, has these caucasion features, and Marvel seems unwilling to add enough characters of color to make their universe even a bit more realistic. And they exacerbated that with Apocalypse's whiteness and now Darwin's albino whiteness that has given readers the ability to assume he's white.

How many prominent white mutants can you name who look white?
How many prominent black mutants can you name who look black?

Given that we are 12% of the USA, 35% of NYC, and 40% of the world, this is a problem. And every opportunity Marvel has to fix it, they seem to ignore or even make it worse. If nobody seems to notice and nobody seems to care, but plenty of people have excuses, how can it get anywhere but worse?

[worstblogever]

By the same token, someone could argue that a South American like Sunspot is quite literally, black.

In other words, the entire logic of the argument of off-white Darwin is garbage.

Or you could ramble about it inbetween condemning any other perceived slights on race in the entertainment industry. Your call.

[Pach!]

Which is why there are so many ugly superheroes in relationships?



He looks just like Caliban, so the "unique" argument is hardly impressive. But I do think it would make sense that more mutants would be deformed like some of the Morlocks. Unfortunately, that dream went out the window when we were left with the 198. And the 198 is mostly white, mostly American, and overwhelmingly pretty. Before the 198 we had hundreds of white mutants for every one black mutant. Going down to 198 was an opportunity to reflect real word demographics. Instead they blew that opportunity, and instead killed off or depowered more of the very few black characters. The problem is not that one black mutant, Storm, has hair with cacasion texture AND blue eyes AND no Swahili ability, or that another African, Apocalypse, is both discolored AND given hair with caucasion texture AND given all white folks as his descendants, or even that others, like Shola Inkosi and Synch, were depowered or killed off. The problem is that, given the lack of black representation, another of the very few, very rare black mutants, like the most prominant one, has these caucasion features, and Marvel seems unwilling to add enough characters of color to make their universe even a bit more realistic. And they exacerbated that with Apocalypse's whiteness and now Darwin's albino whiteness that has given readers the ability to assume he's white.

How many prominent white mutants can you name who look white?
How many prominent black mutants can you name who look black?

Given that we are 12% of the USA, 35% of NYC, and 40% of the world, this is a problem. And every opportunity Marvel has to fix it, they seem to ignore or even make it worse. If nobody seems to notice and nobody seems to care, but plenty of people have excuses, how can it get anywhere but worse?


I'm sorry I just find your need for more black characters hypocritical.

You're complaining about white people wanting white character and you're doing the same thing.

Black people are not the ethnicity with the highest population in the world nor are they the largest minority in the USA. Furthermore, even if they were, they do have strong black characters in comics. If you truly were for more diversity, I think more black characters should be close to the last place to go to.


Anyways, regarding Darwin specifically. It makes sense to give him these looks. It goes great with his powers. So at the end to me its about asking "Should I make this character black at the cost of sacrificing a better story?". No, which is why I, despite being hispanic, am not complaining about Darwin's color.

[sinjection]

By the same token, someone could argue that a South American like Sunspot is quite literally, black.


Except that in actuality, there are more "someones" who will likely argue that the black Ororo is not beyond race - meaning that her blackness is in question - than there is that one "someone" who might argue that Sunspot is black.

Usually what is observed in forums such as this one are fans often representative of the larger comicbook-buying demographic who will argue until they are blue in the face that Ororo is not black, that while Bishop is "colored" black, that he isn't black per se and so on and so forth.

Therefore, I could call the logic of your post "garbage" as well.

[frog]

Which is why there are so many ugly superheroes in relationships? The readers care about looks. That's why the women are all beautiful and unbelievably endowed. As a woman, I'd prefer to see some average looking female characters but I don't let it get in the way of my enjoyment.


Given that we are 12% of the USA, 35% of NYC, and 40% of the world, this is a problem. And every opportunity Marvel has to fix it, they seem to ignore or even make it worse. If nobody seems to notice and nobody seems to care, but plenty of people have excuses, how can it get anywhere but worse?Boycott the products then. You don't have to purchase and read the books if you don't like them. Produce and read alternative comics. Trying to force Marvel to simply fill a quota will only result in bad writing and worse characters.

[worstblogever]

Except that in actuality, there are more "someones" who will likely argue that the black Ororo is not beyond race - meaning that her blackness is in question - than there is that one "someone" who might argue that Sunspot is black.

Usually what is observed in forums such as this one are fans often representative of the larger comicbook-buying demographic who will argue until they are blue in the face that Ororo is not black, that while Bishop is "colored" black, that he isn't black per se and so on and so forth.

Therefore, I could call the logic of your post "garbage" as well.

Racially, they're all mutants. Mutation sometimes means your skin pigmentation could end up being something that can only be duplicated at Home Depot. There's no rhyme or reason to why anyone is any physical color in the realm of X-Men. Trying to prove media racial bias through Darwin means you miss the entire theme of the X-Men comics. TOLERANCE. It's what they're all about. It's why Storm can get along, and have a romantic relationship with people of different races, and perhaps, if you read between the lines, genders. And it's why Darwin can do the same. If you miss that defining theme, and blind yourself to it this vehemently, you have no logic to base any argument on.

[Magneto X]

Trying to force Marvel to simply fill a quota will only result in bad writing and worse characters.

Who told you that? Was that a considered opinion or did it just jump into your head? Marvel was conscious about making a diverse team when they issued Giant Sized X-Men #1 which basically included a mutant from each continent. Have Storm, Colosus and Nightcrawler etc. only provided for bad writing and worse characters? We're the stories that followed so much worse than the old, all-white, prep-schooly original X-Men? You've demanded to go back? I think you've said it must be worse, so why don't you now provide some support, ANY SUPPORT, any evidence, to your accusation that diversifying characters makes for bad writing and worse characters. I think it's bad writing to represent white people as 99% of the world's superheroes when they represent only 15% of the world, but you may be selective about what you consider bad writing. There's certainly plenty of bad writing with white characters. And I think Marvel's dedication to being more realistic and more real-world has made it better writing on average than DC. But please, enlighten me.

Black people are not the ethnicity with the highest population in the world nor are they the largest minority in the USA.

Black people represent several times the proportion they are given in these comics. Being 13% and growing of the USA and having less than 1% of the heroes is an obvious shortchange to me, but maybe not enough for you to notice or worry about. But you are correct, of course, to say that Latinos and Asians and other minorities need more representation. I agree.

You're complaining about white people wanting white character and you're doing the same thing.

Math major? Because I am so so so doing exactly the same thing as white readers demanding more white characters, well, only if you don't know anything about patterns, statistics or demographics, or even how someone might continue to cut a pie or divide a pizza after the first eater already took three slices for themself. Then yes. It's exactly the same thing for the people who have a 1% share to ask the people who have a 99% share to share more. Very unfair of them. And very astute anaylsis. :confused:

Boycott the products then. You don't have to purchase and read the books if you don't like them.

Indeed black boycotts of other media giants have worked to make them diversify.
But they have worked with the help of white consumers and advertisers.
In this case you seem to be saying you don't care so we are on our own.

[Pach!]

Who told you that? Was that a considered opinion or did it just jump into your head? Marvel was conscious about making a diverse team when they issued Giant Sized X-Men #1 which basically included a mutant from each continent. Have Storm, Colosus and Nightcrawler only provided for bad writing and worse characters? We're the stories that followed so much worse better than the old, all-white, prep-schooly original X-Men? I think you've said it must be worse, so why don't you now provide some support, ANY SUPPORT, any evidence, to your accusation that diversifying characters makes for bad writing and worse characters. I think it's bad writing to represent white people as 99% of the world's superheroes when they represent only 15% of the world, but you may be selective about what you consider bad writing. There's certainly plenty of bad writing with white characters. And I think Marvel's dedication to being more realistic and more real-world has made it better writing on average than DC.



Black people represent several times the proportion they are given in these comics. Being 13% and growing of the USA and having less than 1% of the heroes is an obvious shortchange to me, but maybe not enough for you to notice or worry about. But you are correct, of course, to say that Latinos and Asians and other minorities need more representation. I agree.



Math major? Because I am so so so doing exactly the same thing as white readers demanding more white characters, well, only if you don't know anything about patterns, statistics or demographics, or even how someone might continue to cut a pie or divide a pizza after the first eater already took three slices for themself. Then yes. It's exactly the same thing for the people who have a 1% share to ask the people who have a 99% share to share more. Very unfair of them. And very astute anaylsis. :confused:



Indeed black boycotts of other media giants have worked to make them diversify.
But they have worked with the help of white consumers and advertisers.
In this case you seem to be saying you don't care so we are on our own.






There are many important A-list black characters in Marvel. You want more. To me that's the same. You have 3/4 of that last 1/4 left.

[Hi-Fi]

Hi-Fi do you think Darwin's powers were better used in Bru's Uncanny arc or the Gage WWH:X-Men tie-ie? Reactive or Proactive?
I prefer the reactive powers myself. And I thought that Darwin's escape was hilarious in WWH:XM.

I wish Sway and Petra would come back as well so that they could get together. Bru created some cool characters for Deadly Genesis.

[Magneto X]

I prefer the reactive powers myself. And I thought that Darwin's escape was hilarious in WWH:XM.

I prefer reactive too.

There are many important A-list black characters in Marvel. You want more.

Enlighten me, please. List the many important A-list black characters you are refering to.

And then we'll compare it to a similar list of important white A-listers and see if black A-listers represent 1) more than their real-world proportion, 2) approximately their real-world proportion, 3) less than their real world proportion, 4) only half their real-world proportion, or 5) only a small fraction of their real world proportion.

To me that's the same.

We shall see.

[sinjection]

Racially, they're all mutants.

Wrong. Racially, every mutant is as yellow, black and white and all the wonderful hues in between, as any normal human being is. David Alleyne is no longer a mutant. He was, but not any longer. David Alleyne remains a black male however. Mutants aren't a different race. Mutants are a different SPECIES. A different SPECIES. Get it?

Tyrone Johnson was a young BLACK teenaged HUMAN male. Tandy Bowen was a young WHITE teenaged HUMAN female. Different genders. Different races. Same species - human. When the two teenagers came within proximity of one another, the properties of each individual triggered their latent mutant gene. Tyrone triggered Tandy's mutant gene. Tandy triggered Tyrone's mutant gene. At that instant, the two teenagers were different racially and with respect to gender, but they remained the same with regard to their species, except that they were now mutants, no longer human.

Now then, this is my brother Magneto X's thread. I will respect him and respect his thread and will therefore forego savaging the remainder of your "making no sense whatsoever post" in inimitable sinjection fashion. You are posting go a black man about "tolerance"? The X-Men, a comicbook concept born of the black American struggle not only for tolerance, but for basic human rights? Black people who many whites believed were an inferior species? You're going to post to me about that?

What the hell? Anyway, your post....what remains of it at any rate....is illogical.

[Brian M.]

I prefer the reactive powers myself. And I thought that Darwin's escape was hilarious in WWH:XM.

I wish Sway and Petra would come back as well so that they could get together. Bru created some cool characters for Deadly Genesis.

Yes he did, I would love to see them fill some spots in teams after MC. Sway espically I liked her power a lot, I could see her easily fitting into X-Factor.

[pariah-1972]

I'm not completely sure what this thread is about exactly cause i never knew Darwin was "black" but i just want to say that i would like to see more african americans in the x-men off all types and styles and personalities, they live in New York for christsakes but they hardly ever see any black people or meet them for me that feels a little weird.
of course i guess you could say the same for Daredevil who lives in hells kitchen which i understand is really really black.
i would like to see some that come from the "hood" or the "ghetto" just for realism sake since we have had so many african american mutants come from middle class families it feels a little wrong.
the one thing i liked about Bishop even tho didn't have much of a personality at all, is that he felt like a real strong black man who had raised himself up from a really bad place in time and didn't take no b.s from anyone and became a good cop.
i think that right there is a good role model more than that whiney teenager static shock who lives in suburbia.


and as far as the "quotas" thing wasn't the uncanny x-men and there diversity sort of the same idea ? to appeal to more diverse group of people than middle class white kids? wasn't that successfull?

[Joe Acro]

Math major? Because I am so so so doing exactly the same thing as white readers demanding more white characters, well, only if you don't know anything about patterns, statistics or demographics, or even how someone might continue to cut a pie or divide a pizza after the first eater already took three slices for themself. Then yes. It's exactly the same thing for the people who have a 1% share to ask the people who have a 99% share to share more. Very unfair of them. And very astute anaylsis. :confused:
I think this hits the nail on the head in a way you didn't intend. You've gotten yourself lost in the statistics. You've taken out the human element and replaced it with numbers to back your argument, convinced these numbers are absolute truth. I don't need numbers to tell me you're exaggerating when you say that 99% of the comic book characters are white. But that aside, what studies are you using to back your data? How do you know for certain that white readers necessarily demand more white characters?

How do you know what any reader wants? You can use sales and statistics that lack a source all you want, but you can't say what readers want. All you can make is sweeping generalizations.

Want to give us some proof? Conduct a study. Randomly select a large group of comic buyers of various ages, races, genders, etc. Ask them questions your questions. Then project your findings on the population as a whole. That's how statistics work. That's how people can project who's going to win an election amongst a population. It's what surveys are used for.

I like Darwin. He's a versatile, likable character. He's got willpower, he can have attitude, and he's not a pushover, though his reservations hold him back. I like him for his character.

[Pach!]

I prefer reactive too.



Enlighten me, please. List the many important A-list black characters you are refering to.

And then we'll compare it to a similar list of important white A-listers and see if black A-listers represent 1) more than their real-world proportion, 2) approximately their real-world proportion, 3) less than their real world proportion, 4) only half their real-world proportion, or 5) only a small fraction of their real world proportion.



We shall see.

You're missing my point. There is no where near as many black A-listers as white A-listers. White people do have 3/4 of the pizza or pie or whatever your analogy was.

However you have Falcon, Luke Cage and Storm. And I mean really "A" listers. Which is why I'm not including others like Patriot, Bishop, Misty Knight. Compare that to other minorities. What's the highest A-lister hispanic? muslim? Buddhist? Asian?

If you want to truly represent the worlds "diversity", creating more black characters is hardly the place to start.

[sinjection]

Indeed black boycotts of other media giants have worked to make them diversify.
But they have worked with the help of white consumers and advertisers.
In this case you seem to be saying you don't care so we are on our own.


I have been "boycotting" the X-Men, Spider-man,...hell. I've been "boycotting" almost all of Marvel Comics' titles for years. Why? Because the X-Men, Spider-man and the rest of those titles I don't bother to pick up and haven't missed a day since I stopped purchasing them, are boring as hell. They are deadly boring. Boring.

If I happen to purchase one of those boring books it is because of the artwork, never the character or the stories involving them. I am quite happy with the one Marvel title I do purchase on a regular basis, THE BLACK PANTHER. I have felt for some time now that any black comicbook fan who reads the X-Men or any X-related title and enjoys the read and how black characters are often (mis)treated should carefully re evaluate their reading choices.

As to Darwin, what little I have seen of his powers - and what I've seen has been very little indeed - I find promising. Again, I see Magneto X's position, not only with Darwin, but with other black Marvel characters of late. Darwin's "white" complexion. Ororo's "dubious blackness". Blade's long lost white father....it goes on.

The black comicbook fan needs to become more assertive. Support of black writers Reginald Hudlin, Dwayne McDuffie, Christopher Priest and others would be a positive first step in the direction.

David Alleyne and julian keller, "best friends"? No. No, no, no, no, no.

[Magneto X]

You're missing my point. There is no where near as many black A-listers as white A-listers. White people do have 3/4 of the pizza or pie or whatever your analogy was.

However you have Falcon, Luke Cage and Storm. And I mean really "A" listers. Which is why I'm not including others like Patriot, Bishop, Misty Knight. Compare that to other minorities. What's the highest A-lister hispanic? muslim? Buddhist? Asian?

If you want to truly represent the worlds "diversity", creating more black characters is hardly the place to start.

Okay. I thought you were saying compared to white A-listers. I agree other groups (Asians, Latinons, Muslims, etc.) are severely under-represented. But with only zero to five A-listers representing for each non-white ethnicity, compared to maybe 50 to 80 white A-listers, I don't know if it's all that helpful to start arguing over who to start with first. They all need increasing a great deal. But since I never said only black folks should get more representation, we agree. Whites are overrepresented and that should change. And not get worse.

I'm not completely sure what this thread is about exactly cause i never knew Darwin was "black" but i just want to say that i would like to see more african americans in the x-men off all types and styles and personalities, they live in New York for christsakes but they hardly ever see any black people or meet them for me that feels a little weird.
of course i guess you could say the same for Daredevil who lives in hells kitchen which i understand is really really black.


and as far as the "quotas" thing wasn't the uncanny x-men and there diversity sort of the same idea ? to appeal to more diverse group of people than middle class white kids? wasn't that successfull?


Yes.


http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f106/vancegathing/thebrowndarwin.jpg

The ignorant thing about this is Darwin is the least likely mutant to have non-sensical mutations. His very power is adapting in ways that help him survive. His mutation turning his skin pale does not make sense scientifically, and it's offensive thematically.

[Brian M.]

Oh okay. But since I never said only black folks should get more representation, we agree. White are overrepresented and that should change.

So do you flood the market with nothing but ethnic characters? Regardless of how good they are? Or do you go back and start making changing the backgrounds of already established characters? Do you create book after new book of nothing but ethnic characters and hope it sells? Because remember, this is a business. Do you take existing titles and change their cast to casts of new ethnic characters? How do you change it?

[Joe Acro]

I have been "boycotting" the X-Men, Spider-man,...hell. I've been "boycotting" almost all of Marvel Comics' titles for years. Why? Because the X-Men, Spider-man and the rest of those titles I don't bother to pick up and haven't missed a day since I stopped purchasing them, are boring as hell. They are deadly boring. Boring.You don't read the X-Men. You haven't for a long time. Who are you to say what the X-Men needs? It's by your lack of understanding about the characters within those titles that gets you in trouble.

If I happen to purchase one of those boring books it is because of the artwork, never the character or the stories involving them. I am quite happy with the one Marvel title I do purchase on a regular basis, THE BLACK PANTHER. I have felt for some time now that any black comicbook fan who reads the X-Men or any X-related title and enjoys the read and how black characters are often (mis)treated should carefully re evaluate their reading choices.Why buy comics you won't read?

And why should any fan of the X-Men re-evaluate their reading choices? Are you saying people can't like what they want because you don't like what they do?

[Pach!]

Oh okay. But since I never said only black folks should get more representation, we agree. White are overrepresented and that should change.

Sure, we need more diversity but the moment you start making characters "fit" into certain voids you have, you're writing crappy stories.

I would love to see more hispanic characters... however if they make a great character and he's white? That's absolutely fine for me.

I was just pointing out that this whole "More black characters now!" is ridiculous. Start at the really bottom. Protest for more Muslims or whatever. As long as you want more of a minority that's already the second most represented ethnicity in comics, you're hardly being fair to the rest of us. So to me...you're doing the same thing you're pissed at.

EDIT: And if you feel strongly about it. go buy books with diversity.I personally recommend THE ORDER which has a hispanic woman, a black guy, a japanese guy, etc. And it's a good book.

[Joe Acro]

EDIT: And if you feel strongly about it. go buy books with diversity.I personally recommend THE ORDER which has a hispanic woman, a black guy, a japanese guy, etc. And it's a good book.And I recommend Dynamo 5. On an almost constant basis. (For the story, not for the diversity, but if that's what they want...)

[sinjection]

So a black guy and a white guy can't be friends? No wonder you dislike the X-Men. You obviously don't get what it is about.

Do you get what the X-Men is about? Are you even aware of the premise upon which the X-Men are based? Here's a hint: Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Malcolm X.

Do you also dislike Cloak/Dagger and Cage/Jessica as pairings?

As long as writers have Cloak following Dagger around like a lovesick puppy dog, I'll want to see more of Cloak and less of Dagger. As he is no longer dependent upon her living light, this is now a possibility. All I know about Cage and Jones is that they are married and there are times Jones is drawn as if a mule kicked her squarely between her eyes. It's like saying the only white girl Cage could get is an ugly white girl.

Because I am a fan of Salvador Larocca's artwork, I happen to have a book featuring Bishop and Sage working in close proximity. Some kid even transported them away from the X-Mansion to another location and when they arrived, they arrived naked. Now, if that mutant whose name I refuse to mention can jump Ororo and Beast can jump Cecilia, why couldn't Bishop jump the naked Sage? :)

No need to answer. Just a little sinjection silliness there :)

[pariah-1972]

Okay. I thought you were saying compared to white A-listers. I agree other groups (Asians, Latinons, Muslims, etc.) are severely under-represented. But with only zero to five A-listers representing for each non-white ethnicity, compared to maybe 50 to 80 white A-listers, I don't know if it's all that helpful to start arguing over who to start with first. They all need increasing a great deal. But since I never said only black folks should get more representation, we agree. Whites are overrepresented and that should change. And not get worse.




Yes.


http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f106/vancegathing/thebrowndarwin.jpg

The ignorant thing about this is Darwin is the least likely mutant to have non-sensical mutations. His very power is adapting in ways that help him survive. His mutation turning his skin pale does not make sense scientifically, and it's offensive thematically.Of course having big eyes and long arms probably doesn't make sense "thematically" but its there.

[sinjection]

You don't read the X-Men. You haven't for a long time. Who are you to say what the X-Men needs? It's by your lack of understanding about the characters within those titles that gets you in trouble.

"In trouble"? Au Contraire. Who am I to say what the X-Men needs? I've alread said all I need to say about the X-Men. Every story that could be told about the X-Men, HAS been told. In my opinion, the X-Men are played out. What the X-Men need to do is let Ororo return to her new exalted position in Wakanda and then get busy becoming extinct...or whatever it is they're doing.

Why buy comics you won't read?

Because I like to look at the pretty pictures.

And why should any fan of the X-Men re-evaluate their reading choices? Are you saying people can't like what they want because you don't like what they do?

I was very clear in what I posted. I meant what I typed. Period.

[RoguishGurl]

"In trouble"? Au Contraire. Who am I to say what the X-Men needs? I've alread said all I need to say about the X-Men. Every story that could be told about the X-Men, HAS been told. In my opinion, the X-Men are played out. What the X-Men need to do is let Ororo return to her new exalted position in Wakanda and then get busy becoming extinct...or whatever it is they're doing.

But the X-men are Ororo's friends and she has every right to be there with them especially when they are focusing on how to save mutants, and since she is a mutant i would think that would be very important to her.

[Joe Acro]

"In trouble"? Au Contraire. Who am I to say what the X-Men needs? I've alread said all I need to say about the X-Men. Every story that could be told about the X-Men, HAS been told. In my opinion, the X-Men are played out. What the X-Men need to do is let Ororo return to her new exalted position in Wakanda and then get busy becoming extinct...or whatever it is they're doing.But if they became extinct, then Ororo would die.

If you think it's played out, fine. That's your opinion. I don't read any of the ongoings currently to adequately disagree with you. But a lot of people would, as evidenced by the large amount people who post on this board. I'm just saying that you bashing the X-Men when you don't even read the titles seems somewhat misguided.

I was very clear in what I posted. I meant what I typed. Period.I don't think it was. You seemed to say black people shouldn't be enjoying the X-Men. And if that's what you meant, it certainly doesn't paint a good picture of you.

[Pro]

Do you get what the X-Men is about? Are you even aware of the premise upon which the X-Men are based? Here's a hint: Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Malcolm X.

And yet all writers and artists except black artists and writers are racists who deliberately try to keep the number of black characters down to a minimum?

I've alread said all I need to say about the X-Men.

Great! No need to hang around the x-boards then. Bye bye.

[frog]

Who told you that? Was that a considered opinion or did it just jump into your head? Marvel was conscious about making a diverse team when they issued Giant Sized X-Men #1 which basically included a mutant from each continent. Have Storm, Colosus and Nightcrawler etc. only provided for bad writing and worse characters? We're the stories that followed so much worse than the old, all-white, prep-schooly original X-Men? You've demanded to go back? I think you've said it must be worse, so why don't you now provide some support, ANY SUPPORT, any evidence, to your accusation that diversifying characters makes for bad writing and worse characters. I think it's bad writing to represent white people as 99% of the world's superheroes when they represent only 15% of the world, but you may be selective about what you consider bad writing. There's certainly plenty of bad writing with white characters. And I think Marvel's dedication to being more realistic and more real-world has made it better writing on average than DC. But please, enlighten me.

You can't force creativity. Forcing creators to add characters means they will have to come up with reasons as to why those character exist outside of the original story plan. Marvel had a plan for Storm, Nightcrawler and Collosus. Adding characters willy-nilly to meet a 15% requirement will make for poorly thought out characters because they will only be padding. I'd rather have a few well conceived minority characters that really add to the stories than a multitude of add-ons. What you advocate is like filling quotas in workplaces and forcing the hires of unqualified candidates.



Indeed black boycotts of other media giants have worked to make them diversify.
But they have worked with the help of white consumers and advertisers.
In this case you seem to be saying you don't care so we are on our own.


No, I don't care to boycott Marvel because I haven't had that much of a problem with the products. They aren't perfect, but they are acceptable to me.

Indeed, I wouldn't join a boycott now even if I did see a problem because I'm not going to associate myself with the actions of those people who deliberately try to stir up problems. Such people do more harm to their cause than good by turning people away with their arrogance and insistence that their way is the only way.

[Magneto X]

Sure, we need more diversity but the moment you start making characters "fit" into certain voids you have, you're writing crappy stories.

You keep saying that but have no evidence. When the X-Men diversified it not only made the comic better, it got so many readers it brought Marvel out of bankruptcy. You are simply wrong on this. Making the comics more real world demographically isn't worse writing, it's much much better.

Marvel had a plan for Storm, Nightcrawler and Collosus. Adding characters willy-nilly to meet a 15% requirement will make for poorly thought out characters because they will only be padding.

Then don't do it willy nilly. Do it with a good plan.

I'm not going to associate myself with the actions of those people who deliberately try to stir up problems. Such people do more harm to their cause than good by turning people away with their arrogance and insistence

Read Martin Luther King's "Letter from a Birmingham Jail" and tell me who in that letter does your above paragraph sound like.

As long as you want more of a minority that's already the second most represented ethnicity in comics,

That would be fine. There's not so much a "bottom" as a "top and several bottoms." Most teams have several whites and a couple token non-whites. So no non-white group has more the a few A-Listers, whereas whites have dozens.

White A-Listers = (Several dozen)
Spider-Man, Iron Man, Mighty Avengers, Hulk, Excalibur, Ghost Rider, She-Hulk, Thor, Fantastic Four, Cable, Daredevil, Deadpool, Moon Knight, Ms. Marvel, Ghost Rider, Xavier, Gambit, Rogue, Magneto, Cyclops, Wolverine, etc.

Asian A-Listers = (About three)
Armor, Sunfire, maybe Jubilee or Karima Shapandar

Black A-Listers = (About three)
Black Panther, Storm, Luke Cage

Latino A-Listers = (About three)
Echo, Miguel O'Hara, Arana

The overall problem racially is white dominance and non-white absence.

[Pach!]

You keep saying that but have no evidence. When the X-Men diversified it not only made the comic better, it got so many readers it brought Marvel out of bankruptcy. You are simply wrong on this. Making the comics more real world demographically isn't worse writing, it's much much better.



Read Martin Luther King's "Letter from a Birmingham Jail" and tell me who in that letter does your above paragraph sound like.



That would be fine. There's not so much a "bottom" as a "top and several bottoms." Most teams have several whites and a couple token non-whites. So no non-white group has more the a few A-Listers, whereas whites have dozens.

White A-Listers = (Several dozen)
Spider-Man, Iron Man, Mighty Avengers, Hulk, Excalibur, Ghost Rider, She-Hulk, Thor, Fantastic Four, Cable, Daredevil, Deadpool, Moon Knight, Ms. Marvel, Ghost Rider, Wolverine, etc.

Asian A-Listers = (About three)
Armor, Sunfire, Karima Shapandar

Black A-Listers = (About three)
Black Panther, Storm, Luke Cage

Latino A-Listers = (About three)
Echo, Miguel O'Hara, Arana

The overall problem racially is white dominance and non-white absence.

LOL

Armor, Sunfire, Karima, Miguel and Arana are not A-listers.

Even Echo is hardly "A". That's my point.Most other minorites have NO A LISTERS. So let's start there.



And that middle quote is not me..I have no idea why you decided to put my quotes like that.

[sinjection]

You keep saying that but have no evidence. When the X-Men diversified it not only made the comic better, it got so many readers it brought Marvel out of bankruptcy. You are simply wrong on this. Making the comics more real world demographically isn't worse writing, it's much much better.



Read Martin Luther King's "Letter from a Birmingham Jail" and tell me who in that letter does your above paragraph sound like.



That would be fine. There's not so much a "bottom" as a "top and several bottoms." Most teams have several whites and a couple token non-whites. So no non-white group has more the a few A-Listers, whereas whites have dozens.

White A-Listers = (Several dozen)
Spider-Man, Iron Man, Mighty Avengers, Hulk, Excalibur, Ghost Rider, She-Hulk, Thor, Fantastic Four, Cable, Daredevil, Deadpool, Moon Knight, Ms. Marvel, Ghost Rider, Xavier, Gambit, Rogue, Magneto, Cyclops, Wolverine, etc.

Asian A-Listers = (About three)
Armor, Sunfire, maybe Karima Shapandar

Black A-Listers = (About three)
Black Panther, Storm, Luke Cage

Latino A-Listers = (About three)
Echo, Miguel O'Hara, Arana

The overall problem racially is white dominance and non-white absence.

Another POWERFUL post.

And now, "Black A-Listers" For the sake of an argument, at least one poster is willing to count Black Panther among Marvel's "A-List". But what is the complaint most read by X-mutant fans with regard to Ororo's presence in THE BLACK PANTHER publication?

"The only reason Ororo is in that book is to prop up a inferior character." Isn't that about what is the norm of what is written? It's fine that the Black Panther can be an A-Lister now because a poster is trying to suggest that Marvel has more than one A-List character. I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw an earlier post which had the Falcon listed as an A-Lister. :D The lengths to which some will go to prove a point that doesn't exist.

Cage is an A-List character? News to me.

And Storm...a black A-List character? There are times depending upon the thread, the alignment of the stars, whimsy, etc... that Storm isn't even a black character.

But for the sake of this argument, the "sometimes black" Storm is a black A-Lister. The Black Panther, usually "inferior character" Storm was forced to marry to improve his chances of becoming a more appealing character, is now said to be an A-Lister. Cage who some seem to believe isn't quite Cage unless he has Iron Fist hanging out of his back pocket, is an A-Lister and good golly....even the Falcon was listed as an A-Lister.

Hysterically funny :)

[Magneto X]

Even Echo is hardly "A".

Easy to say when there aren't any black people at all in the Mighty Avengers or Astonishing X-Men.

Most other minorites have NO A LISTERS. So let's start there.

It doesn't matter much which method since this has been a problem for decades and whether we increase each, or start with the "bottom" and then move on, it is the same progress IMO. As soon as you get three or four in your first category, you'll get a new "bottom" and move over. Either way we get progress. And all the heavy lifting is in every non-white race.

The one thing undeniable is that there are plenty of white A-Listers.

[Fatguy]

Another POWERFUL post.

And now, "Black A-Listers" For the sake of an argument, at least one poster is willing to count Black Panther among Marvel's "A-List". But what is the complaint most read by X-mutant fans with regard to Ororo's presence in THE BLACK PANTHER publication?

"The only reason Ororo is in that book is to prop up a inferior character." Isn't that about what is the norm of what is written? It's fine that the Black Panther can be an A-Lister now because a poster is trying to suggest that Marvel has more than one A-List character. I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw an earlier post which had the Falcon listed as an A-Lister. :D The lengths to which some will go to prove a point that doesn't exist.

Cage is an A-List character? News to me.

And Storm...a black A-List character? There are times depending upon the thread, the alignment of the stars, whimsy, etc... that Storm isn't even a black character.

But for the sake of this argument, the "sometimes black" Storm is a black A-Lister. The Black Panther, usually "inferior character" Storm was forced to marry to improve his chances of becoming a more appealing character, is now said to be an A-Lister. Cage who some seem to believe isn't quite Cage unless he has Iron Fist hanging out of his back pocket, is an A-Lister and good golly....even the Falcon was listed as an A-Lister.

Hysterically funny :)

You say it was a POWERFUL post, and then you...say that he's wrong about the characters he's listed are in fact A-Listers?

So what was powerful then? Pointing out that there are a lot of white A-Listers? I think we already knew that...

[worstblogever]

You keep saying that but have no evidence. When the X-Men diversified it not only made the comic better, it got so many readers it brought Marvel out of bankruptcy. You are simply wrong on this. Making the comics more real world demographically isn't worse writing, it's much much better.



Then don't do it willy nilly. Do it with a good plan.



Read Martin Luther King's "Letter from a Birmingham Jail" and tell me who in that letter does your above paragraph sound like.



That would be fine. There's not so much a "bottom" as a "top and several bottoms." Most teams have several whites and a couple token non-whites. So no non-white group has more the a few A-Listers, whereas whites have dozens.

White A-Listers = (Several dozen)
Spider-Man, Iron Man, Mighty Avengers, Hulk, Excalibur, Ghost Rider, She-Hulk, Thor, Fantastic Four, Cable, Daredevil, Deadpool, Moon Knight, Ms. Marvel, Ghost Rider, Xavier, Gambit, Rogue, Magneto, Cyclops, Wolverine, etc.

Asian A-Listers = (About three)
Armor, Sunfire, maybe Jubilee or Karima Shapandar

Black A-Listers = (About three)
Black Panther, Storm, Luke Cage

Latino A-Listers = (About three)
Echo, Miguel O'Hara, Arana

The overall problem racially is white dominance and non-white absence.

Are the Jews not important to you? I mean, if you're going to go out of your way to segregate the whole Marvel U., you could at least be thorough about it.

Oh... and weren't you supposed to be talking about... DARWIN?

[Magneto X]

Are the Jews not important to you?

You don't have to wait for me. I was responding to another poster who didn't mention that group. But if you need me to do it Magneto, Ben Grimm, and Kitty Pryde are A-Listers. And the closest Muslims have to an A-lister (despite having over a billion Muslims on this planet) is Dust. This can be done with gays and other groups too, of course.

weren't you supposed to be talking about... DARWIN?

Yes, the albino looking fellow who happens to be the only Black and Puerto Rican superhero.


the bottom line is that there needs to be more diversity in comics.

Whether they are Asian girls wearing blonde wigs or albino African-Americans, racial and gay minorities should be represented if not only to strengthen the 'mutant analogy' but to reflect the fact that it takes place in such a richly diverse region.

And the fact that it is now the 21st(??!?) century.


I love you.

[Fatguy]

White A-Listers = (Several dozen)
Spider-Man, Iron Man, Mighty Avengers, Hulk, Excalibur, Ghost Rider, She-Hulk, Thor, Fantastic Four, Cable, Daredevil, Deadpool, Moon Knight, Ms. Marvel, Ghost Rider, Xavier, Gambit, Rogue, Magneto, Cyclops, Wolverine, etc.

Asian A-Listers = (About three)
Armor, Sunfire, maybe Jubilee or Karima Shapandar

Black A-Listers = (About three)
Black Panther, Storm, Luke Cage

Latino A-Listers = (About three)
Echo, Miguel O'Hara, Arana

The overall problem racially is white dominance and non-white absence.

By the way, I do agree with Andres, black characters have much more presence in comics than other minorities. (which, by the way, I know your point is that there just needs to be more minority characters in general Magneto X). I do disagree with your evaluation of "A-Listers" here. Just for fun, here's my idea:

WHITE A-LISTERS:

Iron Man, Captain America, Wolverine, the Hulk, Spider-Man, Thor, and the Fantastic Four. I believe that's all you can count, with even Thor being suspect. Followed by TONS of high profile B-Listers.

BLACK A-LISTERS:

Storm. And thats about it, with some very strong B-Listers, such as Cage, Panther, and Falcon.

EVERY OTHER RACE:

0.

[worstblogever]

Wrong. Racially, every mutant is as yellow, black and white and all the wonderful hues in between, as any normal human being is. David Alleyne is no longer a mutant. He was, but not any longer. David Alleyne remains a black male however. Mutants aren't a different race. Mutants are a different SPECIES. A different SPECIES. Get it?

Tyrone Johnson was a young BLACK teenaged HUMAN male. Tandy Bowen was a young WHITE teenaged HUMAN female. Different genders. Different races. Same species - human. When the two teenagers came within proximity of one another, the properties of each individual triggered their latent mutant gene. Tyrone triggered Tandy's mutant gene. Tandy triggered Tyrone's mutant gene. At that instant, the two teenagers were different racially and with respect to gender, but they remained the same with regard to their species, except that they were now mutants, no longer human.

Now then, this is my brother Magneto X's thread. I will respect him and respect his thread and will therefore forego savaging the remainder of your "making no sense whatsoever post" in inimitable sinjection fashion. You are posting go a black man about "tolerance"? The X-Men, a comicbook concept born of the black American struggle not only for tolerance, but for basic human rights? Black people who many whites believed were an inferior species? You're going to post to me about that?

What the hell? Anyway, your post....what remains of it at any rate....is illogical.

The logic is this... is Wolverine and Storm walk into a bar together they both get flack. Know why? THEY"RE MUTANTS! Go figure. And X-Men is not just about the black struggle. Sure, Professor X is based on MLK and Magneto on Malcolm X, but it goes beyond black/white racism. It's every kind of racism. Anti-semitism. Homophobia. It's across the board.

But we're not supposed to be talking about that... we're trying to talk about DARWIN, remember? Quit wasting time baiting, trolling, and antagonizing for kicks and try saying something relevant to the character for more than two consecutive posts.

[sinjection]

You say it was a POWERFUL post,

I did say it was POWERFUL, because it is.


and then you...say that he's wrong about the characters he's listed are in fact A-Listers?

I didn't say he was wrong about anything. I was laughing at how readily his partner in the discussion was willing to accept the Black Panther as an A-Lister when there are surely times when he and other non-Panther/big-Storm fans - who hate the fact that Storm is the Panther's wife and appearing in his publication - would have scoffed at the suggestion that the Panther was an A-Lister. But since it seems to support that poster's argument that Marvel has quite a few A-List characters, he seems all too willing to accept the Panther as an A-Lister. Today, he might even accept the fact that Ororo is a black woman. Next week, he might be of the opinion that she is anything but.

[Joe Acro]

That would be fine. There's not so much a "bottom" as a "top and several bottoms." Most teams have several whites and a couple token non-whites. So no non-white group has more the a few A-Listers, whereas whites have dozens.

White A-Listers = (Several dozen)
Spider-Man, Iron Man, Mighty Avengers, Hulk, Excalibur, Ghost Rider, She-Hulk, Thor, Fantastic Four, Cable, Daredevil, Deadpool, Moon Knight, Ms. Marvel, Ghost Rider, Xavier, Gambit, Rogue, Magneto, Cyclops, Wolverine, etc.

Asian A-Listers = (About three)
Armor, Sunfire, maybe Jubilee or Karima Shapandar

Black A-Listers = (About three)
Black Panther, Storm, Luke Cage

Latino A-Listers = (About three)
Echo, Miguel O'Hara, Arana

The overall problem racially is white dominance and non-white absence.
Some of the white heroes listed represent diversity outside of race. Wolverine is Canadian. Magneto is or was Jewish (I don't know where his religion lies now, after all his terrorist actions). Thor is a Norse God. Moon Knight has a multiple personality disorder. And so on.

And on your Asian list, you forgot such notable people as Shang-Chi and Radioactive Man. They aren't A-Listers, but Radioactive Man is at least on an A-List team.

[worstblogever]

Darwin's mom is a hypocrite in the earlier posted image. She was okay with having a child with someone of opposing race, but when said child was a different race wholly, a mutant, she rejected him. She's racist against one minority, mutants, but tolerant of others. This, of course still makes her a bigot. Not unlike someone who would cheer Prodigy for punching Hellion because he's white.

That is my Darwin input.

[Fatguy]

I did say it was POWERFUL, because it is.




I didn't say he was wrong about anything. I was laughing at how readily his partner in the discussion was willing to accept the Black Panther as an A-Lister when there are surely times when he and other non-Panther/big-Storm fans - who hate the fact that Storm is the Panther's wife and appearing in his publication - would have scoffed at the suggestion that the Panther was an A-Lister. But since it seems to support that poster's argument that Marvel has quite a few A-List characters, he seems all too willing to accept the Panther as an A-Lister. Today, he might even accept the fact that Ororo is a black woman. Next week, he might be of the opinion that she is anything but.

Ah, ok. I missed your point originally.

[Brian M.]

No one has told me how you fix the "problem" of white dominance in comics?

[Magneto X]

By the way, I do agree with Andres, black characters have much more presence in comics than other minorities. (which, by the way, I know your point is that there just needs to be more minority characters in general Magneto X). I do disagree with your evaluation of "A-Listers" here. Just for fun, here's my idea:

WHITE A-LISTERS:
Iron Man,
Captain America,
Wolverine,
Hulk,
Spider-Man,
Thor,
Mister Fantastic,
The Thing,
Invisible Woman,
Human Torch
(Followed by TONS of high profile B-Listers.)

BLACK A-LISTERS:
Storm. (And thats about it, with some very strong B-Listers, such as Cage, Panther, and Falcon.)

EVERY OTHER RACE:
0.

That's fine to use a higher standard of A list (and if you add Cable, Ms. Marvel, Magneto, Daredevil, etc. who have been title in their own comics as well as being prominant in others).
If it's:
WHITE=SEVERAL. BLACK=1. OTHERS=0.
That doesn't change my point at all.

[sinjection]

The logic is this... is Wolverine and Storm walk into a bar together they both get flack. Know why? THEY"RE MUTANTS!

The logic is this. You don't have any. Period. You were wrong when you wrongly identified the mutants as a separate race when they are in fact a separate species. There are the same racial variations that exist in the species homo superior that exist in the species homo sapiens.

Period.

The black struggle, specifically the different approaches to that struggle by two of its great Champions, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. and Malcolm X, is largely what inspired the X-Men concept. Sure, the black struggle was about securing human and civil rights for black people. One of the biggest beneficiaries of that struggle however have been WHITE WOMEN! Don't try to tell me what the X-Men is about and who is represented. Black people in this nation have long carried the banner for all of the national minorities whether they've wanted to or not. You cannot tell me anything about the struggle of MY PEOPLE that I don't already know. You just make sure you've got your mutant classification correct. They aren't a different race. They are a different SPECIES.

[Fatguy]

That's fine to use a higher standard of A list (and if you add Cable, Ms. Marvel, Magneto, Daredevil, etc. who have been title in their own comics as well as being prominant in others).
If it's:
WHITE=SEVERAL. BLACK=1. OTHERS=0.
That doesn't change my point at all.

No, I know. I wasnt trying to change your point, as I think its a correct one. I was just adding my own spin to your list ;)

[worstblogever]

Magneto X has a definite point about Darwin which was irrefutably proven by Pariah's earlier post. He didn't know what the post was about because he never knew Darwin was black in the first place. That is exactly what Magneto X has been saying - and has been saying very well - for some time now.

So... pariah read an issue that didn't mention that Darwin was black, and he looks white so he's confused.

I could read issues and see Beast and think he's black if I haven't read the books before.

Because the important thing is... Darwin's a mutant. That's what makes the story relevant. It's the main conflict he's had to deal with. Because his mom didn't hate him because he is half black, and half Puerto Rican. And she knows he is.

[Pach!]

Magneto X, I think it's hard to determine how many A-listers of each minority there is since there is no exact rule ,you know?

But I strongly believe that there are more and more important black characters than there are of other ethnicities and which is why I think we should start there. More Indian characters, more Muslims, you know? I think those groups are in need of a boost much more than hispanics and to an even larger degree african americans.

Regarding Darwin though, I think that for example Beast... you can't tell he's white, but writers have gone through the trouble to make him a believable white character despite being blue and furry. I think that is what needs to be done with Darwin, make him a believabe hispanic/black character .... not just change the color of his skin.

[Brian M.]

Still no response on how Marvel can remedy your situations? Nothing? No one has a logical way to introduce more characters and make them stick? For folks who seem to wanna complain about the problem I see no solutions being presented...

[worstblogever]

Regarding Darwin though, I think that for example Beast... you can't tell he's white, but writers have gone through the trouble to make him a believable white character despite being blue and furry. I think that is what needs to be done with Darwin, make him a believabe hispanic/black character .... not just change the color of his skin.

But can Beast really "act" white? If we didn't know about Ma & Pa McCoy in Dunfee, Illinois, what would we picture Beast as? I'd actually prefer thinking of him as an educated, learned African American. But, that's not who he is.

I mean, claiming nothing's been done to create minority characters... credit where it's due... they literally once came up with a contrived plot device to turn a Anglo-Saxon girl from Britain into an Asian woman. Can't say that nothing has been done.

[Magneto X]

credit where it's due...

Yes. Some strides have been made.

they literally once came up with a contrived plot device to turn a Anglo-Saxon girl from Britain into an Asian woman.

Psylocke's Brittish mind moving into a hot Asian body is a rather shallow example of minority inclusion. Why not just recruit a Japanese telepath?

No one has told me how you fix the "problem" of white dominance in comics?

Well, that sounds constructive. Any ideas?

My first suggestion is the easiest:
Try to avoid killing and depowering the non-whites you already have. Poor Shola. :( He was cool. Where is Sunspot exactly?

Second: let's look at those who have already been created but not used so much (Cloak, Moses Magnum, Gateway, and Armor) and see if they could be used. This might already be happening with Armor, Radioactive Man, and Echo, and the recent reversing what happened to Prodigy.

Third: When it's time to create a new character, have the editor ask the writer, is there any reason it has to be another white guy? If there is (like Vulcan was a Summers' brother), fine. If not, let's see (not necessarilly require, but really try to see) if we can't represent some areas on the planet that have gone unrepresented. I bet in many cases we can do that and it will even make the character more interesting.

Fourth: avoid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_stereotypes_in_comics

[pariah-1972]

Dawin is probably going to have some issues with race since his mama abandoned him and that me his unconscious decision to turn into an albino?
my roomate and best friend is mixed race and his mother abandon him and he says some awfull things about black people sometimes.:(

[Brian M.]

Well, that sounds constructive. Any ideas?

My first suggestion is the easiest:
Try to avoid killing and depowering the non-whites you already have. Poor Shola. :( He was cool. Where is Sunspot exactly?

Second: let's look at those who have already been created but not used so much (Cloak, Moses Magnum, Gateway) and see if they could be used. This might already be happening with Armor and Echo and reversing what happened to Prodigy.

Third: When it's time to create a new character, have the editor ask the writer, is there any reason it has to be another white guy? If there is (like Vulcan was a Summers' brother), fine. If not, let's see (not necessarilly require, but really try to see) if we can't represent some areas on the planet that have gone unrepresented. I bet in many cases we can do that and it will even make the character more interesting.

Fourth: avoid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_stereotypes_in_comics

That works. That's actually the first constructive thing I've seen posted in this thread in like 15 pages. It's also doable. Maybe I had you pegged wrong.

[sinjection]

:confused:


Darwin's mom is a hypocrite in the earlier posted image. She was okay with having a child with someone of opposing race,

"...someone of opposing race"? While there is the usual racial breakdown in how people classify themselves even in Puerto Rico, the common admixture of the people is European (Spanish), African and Carib or AmerIndian. In most cases, black Americans and Puerto Ricans share a closer association than black Americans and other hispanic groups with the possible exception of Dominicans. Darwin's Puerto Rican father likely has "black blood" in him as well to a greater or lesser degree.

but when said child was a different race wholly, a mutant, she rejected him.

Because Darwin isn't a different "race". Darwin is a different species. You still aren't getting it. How many human beings can absorb energy and discharge that energy in the form of concussive force blasts, not delivered by fist to jaw that is? Darwin's race is black. Darwin's species is homo superior.

She's racist against one minority, mutants, but tolerant of others.

"Racist"? No. "Specist"? Since I believe I might have just created a new word, it works for me. Darwin's mother is a "specist", not a "racist".

[Fatguy]

My first suggestion is the easiest:
Try to avoid killing and depowering the non-whites you already have. Poor Shola. :( He was cool. Where is Sunspot exactly?

Second: let's look at those who have already been created but not used so much (Cloak, Moses Magnum, Gateway) and see if they could be used. This might already be happening with Armor and Echo and reversing what happened to Prodigy.

Third: When it's time to create a new character, have the editor ask the writer, is there any reason it has to be another white guy? If there is (like Vulcan was a Summers' brother), fine. If not, let's see (not necessarilly require, but really try to see) if we can't represent some areas on the planet that have gone unrepresented. I bet in many cases we can do that and it will even make the character more interesting.

Fourth: avoid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_stereotypes_in_comics

Yea, those are some excellent ideas, and as Brian said, very doable. There are some excellent minority characters floating around in limbo right now.

And I'm all for the stoppage of killing MOST characters, especially the few minority X-Men.

Stop the killings Messiah Complex!

[worstblogever]

Yes. Some strides have been made.

Psylocke's Brittish mind moving into a hot Asian body is a rather shallow example of minority inclusion. Why not just recruit a Japanese telepath?

Well, that sounds constructive. Any ideas?

My first suggestion is the easiest:
Try to avoid killing and depowering the non-whites you already have. Poor Shola. :( He was cool. Where is Sunspot exactly?

Second: let's look at those who have already been created but not used so much (Cloak, Moses Magnum, Gateway) and see if they could be used. This might already be happening with Armor and Echo and reversing what happened to Prodigy.

Third: When it's time to create a new character, have the editor ask the writer, is there any reason it has to be another white guy? If there is (like Vulcan was a Summers' brother), fine. If not, let's see (not necessarilly require, but really try to see) if we can't represent some areas on the planet that have gone unrepresented. I bet in many cases we can do that and it will even make the character more interesting.

Fourth: avoid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_stereotypes_in_comics

Thank you, Magneto X. I was just telling someone the other day to somebody that short of the 198 Files, where he was mentioned as participating in an African conferance with T'Challa off panel, nothing has been done with Moses Magnum, and something should easily be done. Other than the fact that his name totally sounds like a porn star, he needs to be used. Cloak got used a bit in Runaways and Civil War. I sincerely hope he gets used more. Gentile will be featured in Messiah CompleX, from what I've heard. At least in New X-Men. That should help.

Now, as far as Darwin's use, Brubaker created him, and sat him on the bench for a story arc. I could justify it as a writer, that maybe Darwin just needed some downtime after being spontaneously recovered from orbit around the Earth, then heading back into space to try to save his friend, Vulcan, who's went over to the darkside. He just needs some downtime.

Really, the New X-Men feature possibly more minority characters percentage wise than any other team, and they should be around for years to come. Change is coming, just give it time and keep supporting the characters you like, and creators will hesitate before giving them a dirt nap, to avoid fan backlash.

[Magneto X]

Dawin is probably going to have some issues with race since his mama abandoned him and that me his unconscious decision to turn into an albino?
my roomate and best friend is mixed race and his mother abandon him and he says some awfull things about black people sometimes.:(

That would be interesting if done well. It would also allow him to resolve the issue and stop doing it. Unfortunately it makes his power active instead of reactive which I think is too powerful, too ex machina, to be sustainable story-wise.

That works. That's actually the first constructive thing I've seen posted in this thread in like 15 pages. It's also doable. Maybe I had you pegged wrong.

Brian, thank you much!

[Magneto X]

Really, the New X-Men feature possibly more minority characters percentage wise than any other team, and they should be around for years to come. Change is coming

I hope so.

[Pach!]

That works. That's actually the first constructive thing I've seen posted in this thread in like 15 pages. It's also doable. Maybe I had you pegged wrong.

I agree!


I think we should try to get this thread back to Darwin though.


I agree that they should be reactive, however to some extent they have always been somewhat proactive. The next writer needs to really tae some time defining his powers.

[pariah-1972]

That would be interesting if done well. It would also allow him to resolve the issue and stop doing it. Unfortunately it makes his power active instead of reactive which I think is too powerful, too ex machina, to be sustainable story-wise.



Brian, thank you much!Well theres lots of x-characters who are that powerfull so as long as its well written and he doesn't become just a dues ex machina then i wouldn't have any problems.

[worstblogever]

Because Darwin isn't a different "race". Darwin is a different species. You still aren't getting it. How many human beings can absorb energy and discharge that energy in the form of concussive force blasts, not delivered by fist to jaw that is? Darwin's race is black. Darwin's species is homo superior.

"Racist"? No. "Specist"? Since I believe I might have just created a new word, it works for me. Darwin's mother is a "specist", not a "racist".

And keller's beating was way, way, waaaaaaaay overdue. David should have broke keller, broke up with Nori and then, broke camp. That is to say, he should have up and left that group of crazy mutants and headed off for greener pastures.

Maybe he could take Darwin and Nezhno with him.

So, "specists" and racists are completely different things. And homophobia is something else, too. Wait, they're practically the same thing... they're feelings of ignorance and intolerance...

Not unlike supporting a character punching a white kid, solely for the reason that he's white (you still have no other justification, especially considering Hellion walked in on him assaulting his girlfriend I'd rather you didn't embarass yourself by trying), breaking up with his Asian minority girlfriend... and then leaving with all the other characters of African descent he can to segregate themselves away from all the other minorities?

Again, you deliberately miss the point. Mutants symbolize the plight of all peoples prejudiced for any reason. The fact that the X-Men have members of all races amongst their species, and work towards a dream of equality, makes that fact all the more poignant. They share in the same plight. Darwin himself is one of the newest examples of such a character, and he doesn't get bent out of shape with his fellow mutants because they need to unite, not divide.

The same way all races should.

[Magneto X]

Mutants symbolize the plight of all peoples prejudiced for any reason.

Basically. While race may have been in the forefront in the 1960s, writers have used the X-Men to analagize racism, homophobia, anti-communism, etc.

The fact that the X-Men have members of all races amongst their species, and work towards a dream of equality, makes that fact all the more poignant.

But they went a long while being all white. This theme was missed on the X-Men's own writers. They've done better since. Perhaps the best of any major comic title. But in fits and starts (espeically that one Giant Sixed X-Men introductoin) with long periods of homogeneity in between. It would be great if it they kept up with the inclusive spirit generally.

[worstblogever]

While race may have been in the forefront in the 1960s, writers have used the X-Men to analagize racism, homophobia, anti-communism, etc.

But they went a long while being all white. This theme was missed on the X-Men's own writers. They've done better since. Perhaps the best of any major comic title. But in fits and starts (espeically that one Giant Sixed X-Men introductoin) with long periods of homogeneity in between. It would be great if it they kept up with the inclusive spirit generally.

They were white for a long time. Too long. But 1975 Giant Size #1 brought in a lot more diversity. Storm, Sunfire, and Thunderbird in that issue alone. Kitty Pryde came along not too far after, and she was Jewish. Now, I'm not going to quota the team. But as of 1980, there were more minority X-characters.

32 years later... have their been others on the team? Definitely. On other teams? Certainly. Darwin's the latest. Again, New X-Men are more minorities than not, at this point. They're the future. Sure, minority characters die, but so do white ones. Darwin survived Krakoa when 2 other characters didn't. Give him time to fill his niche, and hope that a writer makes him compelling not based solely on his race, or his species, but on his personality.

[Magneto X]

his personality.

He could use one.

[Brian M.]

Brian, thank you much!

Like I've said before, I don't think anyone is for less diversity...that defeats the purpose of the X-Men, it's just in how it's done. Going back and argueing what past creators felt or how they thought of certain characters is pointless. Those 3 steps you mentioned are practical, easy to implement and business smart.

[worstblogever]

He could use one.

Hell yes he could. But it shouldn't have to be confined to a stereotypical mutant, Puerto Rican, or African American. A writer should be bold enough to write him simply as a person with his own traits and quirks.

Not just shouting "Madre de Dios!" instead of "What the devil?" That's not character.

[frog]

Read Martin Luther King's "Letter from a Birmingham Jail" and tell me who in that letter does your above paragraph sound like.


My paragraphs sounds like me taking a stanse for what I believe. I would never join a PETA protest because even though I support the ethical treatment of animals I can't condone their member's actions.

Right now at least one poster in this thread is acting in a manner I find so insulting and inconsiderate that I feel the same way. I'm all for diversity but by no means do I want to join with someone who wants to bait and insults other people and then brags about it.

[Faded]

I love you.

Awww, shucks!

Psylocke's Brittish mind moving into a hot Asian body is a rather shallow example of minority inclusion. Why not just recruit a Japanese telepath?

Her name was Kwannon and she was lovely.
DEAD.

Third: When it's time to create a new character, have the editor ask the writer, is there any reason it has to be another white guy? If there is (like Vulcan was a Summers' brother), fine. If not, let's see (not necessarilly require, but really try to see) if we can't represent some areas on the planet that have gone unrepresented. I bet in many cases we can do that and it will even make the character more interesting.

I've been saying this forever! I was really...in a strong disagreement with Joe Q saying that Marvel only creates minority characters when the story called for it (or something along those lines, I'm paraphrasing--but I'll search for the link from New Joe Fridays on Newsarama later).

I mean even if the characters weren't noticeably "ethnic" due to physical mutations, they still could've made Anole, Mercury, Hellion, etc. minorities without it changing their character one bit.

[Pach!]

Hell yes he could. But it shouldn't have to be confined to a stereotypical mutant, Puerto Rican, or African American. A writer should be bold enough to write him simply as a person with his own traits and quirks.

Not just shouting "Madre de Dios!" instead of "What the devil?" That's not character.

"Que diablos?" would be closer to what the devil though.

[pariah-1972]

Why do we let comic book creators run the industry? i would personally like the comic industry to run like a well oiled machine, not like someone who is running his personal frathouse.
then maybe they could see the potential in creating more minority characters of all stripes?

[Deus ex Chris]

I think Darwin should be gay. We need more gay characters in comics.

[Pach!]

I think Darwin should be gay. We need more gay characters in comics.

Northstar does need a boyfriend.

[worstblogever]

Do you think after being bonded with a bit of space rock for like... years... and being conjoined in some sweaty hybrid with Vulcan... do you think that when the X-Men first met Darwin, he smelled real funny? Like up there with Kurt's BAMF sulfur funny?

[pariah-1972]

Northstar does need a boyfriend.Would he date someone that didn't look normal or pretty?
i know he used to be really judgemental about people during his early Alpha Flight years, now i don't really know if coming out has changed him all that much.

[Cayman]

Darwin would evolve to be prettier for Northstar and to be able to have Northstar's babies.

[pariah-1972]

Darwin would evolve to be prettier for Northstar and to be able to have Northstar's babies.LMFAO
i would pay ten bucks to read that.
:D

[End of Time]

My first suggestion is the easiest:
Try to avoid killing and depowering the non-whites you already have. Poor Shola. :( He was cool. Where is Sunspot exactly?

So black characters become untouchable pieces on the board. They become exempt of any ill-deeds of evildoers. You endorse a "kill and depower only white characters"-policy...

which is eerie, because if you change white for black, it becomes something so ugly nobody wants to look at it.

Not only that, but you relegate all non-white characters to token roles. They are untouchable, nothing truly bad can ever happen to them, not because of who they are as characters, but because they're black, once the threat of defeat is gone, there's no more fun to the character. "Why bother, he won't die, he won't get depowered... because he's black."

It'll only be a matter of time before people complain that black characters are placed outside of mortal danger and radical changes. Because suddenly Marvel is undermining their minority characters by treating them like fragile little dolls made of china.

Second: let's look at those who have already been created but not used so much (Cloak, Moses Magnum, Gateway, and Armor) and see if they could be used. This might already be happening with Armor, Radioactive Man, and Echo, and the recent reversing what happened to Prodigy.

Use characters because they fit a story, not because they're black. If you need a teleporter and you're in New York... who are you going to call? Cloak. Need someone to make something invisible... call Sue Richards.

Third: When it's time to create a new character, have the editor ask the writer, is there any reason it has to be another white guy? If there is (like Vulcan was a Summers' brother), fine. If not, let's see (not necessarilly require, but really try to see) if we can't represent some areas on the planet that have gone unrepresented. I bet in many cases we can do that and it will even make the character more interesting.

Working with a quota... and you'll anger people, but not the white crowd, you'll anger the minority crowd, because a new black character will come across as fulfilling a quota, and thus they become token minority characters.

Also new characters these days in mainstream titles with established characters tend to not do particularly well. Not because they're lame, but because the readership has changed and emphasis of the fanbase is placed on already established characters.

if a new black character fails to get support... will people accuse white readers of being racist and not accepting the character because of his skin colour? "He never got a chance because most readers are white..." in discussions it tends to roll off the tongue with frightening ease...

Fourth: avoid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_stereotypes_in_comics

Stereotypes are bad... but what about the fans who are complaining that characters of colour "act too white"?

the whole racism issue to me is nonsensical, people place Marvel in a situation where they can't win.

Black characters are described as acting too black and therefore a stereotype, or they're described as acting too white. But nobody ever managed to specify what "acting black" actually is.

And apparently there is such a thing as "acting just black enough", because I've heard plenty of people complain that characters either act too black or too white.

The whle racism-debate in comics is sickeningly laced with paranoid convulsions.

if a black character dies or gets depowered, suddenly there's a conspiracy by Marvel to keep black characters down. You can deny it, but I've seen plenty of comments and thread across the web, on mainstream forums even, that go to extreme lenghts to accuse white writers and Marvel as company, of being racist and keeping minority characters down.

The race-debate tends to revolve heavily on making blanket statements such as "most readers are white..." implying racism in the mostly white reader base. I've seen it often enough, basially whenever race in comics comes up, white people get accused of racism, covert and overt.

it's never a pretty sight

[Pwood]

Do you think after being bonded with a bit of space rock for like... years... and being conjoined in some sweaty hybrid with Vulcan... do you think that when the X-Men first met Darwin, he smelled real funny? Like up there with Kurt's BAMF sulfur funny?

Oh, you know it man. I mean, he must've reeked...

[Magneto X]

So black characters become untouchable pieces on the board.

Strange. I said "avoid killing". Does "avoid" mean something different in your world? In mine, it means "try not to." And once there is a critical mass of characters of color and a tradition of introducing them it won't be a problem.

Until then, yeah, I think killing off Storm or Black Panther should be avoided given that it takes out about a huge proportion of the black a-listers who amount to only one to three people depending on who you ask.

When there's a more proportional share, fire away.

Use characters because they fit a story, not because they're black.

You might be the king of the straw man argument. Nobody said what you're arguing against.

[pariah-1972]

I think X and sinjection will agree with me that the main solution to this problem is to get more black writers into comic books, and hopefully that will bring in more black readers which will hopefully level the playing field muchly.
The rap industry didn't get huge by a couple of white guys * thou a couple of them did help) so i'm not holding my breath for white writers to start not killing off black or minority characters.
especially when they weren't that popular to begin with (black goliath for example)correct me if im wrong but Black Panther didn't become really popular until Christopher Priest brought him back right?

[Affinity]

"Que diablos?" would be closer to what the devil though.

They could say,
NO ME DIGA!
or
AYE QUE HERMOSA!
or
TU, ELLA, ES MAS BONITA DEL MUNDO!

I use that last one a lot on my friend's mom.

[Brian M.]

I think X and sinjection will agree with me that the main solution to this problem is to get more black writers into comic books, and hopefully that will bring in more black readers which will hopefully level the playing field muchly.
The rap industry didn't get huge by a couple of white guys * thou a couple of them did help) so i'm not holding my breath for white writers to start not killing off black or minority characters.
especially when they weren't that popular to begin with (black goliath for example)correct me if im wrong but Black Panther didn't become really popular until Christopher Priest brought him back right?

If the black writer is better than the current writer, sure. But to bring in minorities for the sake of having them is stupid.

[Joe Franklin]

:)
Black male mutants have been little more than fodder for the x-writer's need to introduce death into their stories.

We haven't had enough black male X-Men members over the years to validate this statement. The percentage is too small to even count.

[pariah-1972]

If the black writer is better than the current writer, sure. But to bring in minorities for the sake of having them is stupid.Noones saying we should have a virtual affirmative action for comic book writers, of course knowing the stigma that comic books face i'm not sure it would do any good anyways.

[ibrakeforchinwe]

Where the heck IS Darwin, I know people have asked before, but when was he last seen? Wasnt he in WWHulk:X-Men? I wish he was around in Uncanny, I thought he was cool.

[Joe Acro]

Strange. I said "avoid killing". Does "avoid" mean something different in your world? In mine, it means "try not to." And once there is a critical mass of characters of color and a tradition of introducing them it won't be a problem.I just thought I'd point out that "to avoid" does not imply failure. If you avoid an accident while driving, you didn't get caught in it. If you avoid work, you don't try to not do it, you simply don't do it for a time. If you don't succeed at avoiding, then you've "tried to avoid" something.

Your intent probably wasn't to make minority characters untouchable, but by even a loose definition, that's what you said.

[Blade X]

So do you flood the market with nothing but ethnic characters? Regardless of how good they are? Or do you go back and start making changing the backgrounds of already established characters? Do you create book after new book of nothing but ethnic characters and hope it sells? Because remember, this is a business. Do you take existing titles and change their cast to casts of new ethnic characters? How do you change it?

NONE of the above.

Here's what needs to be done to make the books more racially diverse.

1. Stop killing off,depowering,and tossing in limbo the few (compared to white characters) existing non-white minority characters Marvel has. It really pissed me off when Frank Tieri said the reason he killed off Maggot was because MOST fans hated him. Yet, he did everything in his creative power to try and make Marrow (who was just as hated, if not more so, by MOST fans) an interesting and likable character. Tieri also killed off the more interesting (IMO) John Wraith and let the less interesting (again, IMO) Maverick live. And no, I am NOT saying that Marrow and Maverick should have been killed instead of the characters that were killed. My point is that SOME (NOT all) white writers tend to put more effort in making crappy and/or less popular white characters more likable and interesting, then they do crappy and/or less popular non white minority characters.

2. Start using existing non-white minority characters, instead of letting them rot in limbo.

3. Resurrect and repower currently dead and depowered non-white minority characters.

4. ENCOURAGE (NOT FORCE) creators to create GOOD and INTERESTING non-white minority characters.

[Blade X]

You can't force creativity. Forcing creators to add characters means they will have to come up with reasons as to why those character exist outside of the original story plan. Marvel had a plan for Storm, Nightcrawler and Collosus. Adding characters willy-nilly to meet a 15% requirement will make for poorly thought out characters because they will only be padding. I'd rather have a few well conceived minority characters that really add to the stories than a multitude of add-ons. What you advocate is like filling quotas in workplaces and forcing the hires of unqualified candidates.

I don't think anyone is saying that Marvel should just create a bunch of non-white minority characters all "willy-nilly" in order to fill a quota. What we are asking for is that when creators are thinking of creating new characters that they make (or at the very least, consider making) those new characters either Black (African descent),Latino,Asian, Native American,or other. If a creator wants to have a mutant character with the power to teleport on an X-team, but can't use Nightcrawler, then they should either repower Hub or resurrect John Wraith.

[Blade X]

Well, that sounds constructive. Any ideas?

My first suggestion is the easiest:
Try to avoid killing and depowering the non-whites you already have. Poor Shola. :( He was cool. Where is Sunspot exactly?

Second: let's look at those who have already been created but not used so much (Cloak, Moses Magnum, Gateway, and Armor) and see if they could be used. This might already be happening with Armor, Radioactive Man, and Echo, and the recent reversing what happened to Prodigy.

Third: When it's time to create a new character, have the editor ask the writer, is there any reason it has to be another white guy? If there is (like Vulcan was a Summers' brother), fine. If not, let's see (not necessarilly require, but really try to see) if we can't represent some areas on the planet that have gone unrepresented. I bet in many cases we can do that and it will even make the character more interesting.

Fourth: avoid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_stereotypes_in_comics

Dude, I just read your post, and you pretty much said the exact same thing that I said in my post. That'll teach me to read ALL of the posts before posting.

[pariah-1972]

I seriously doubt any character in the x men universe was created to fill a quota and most of the minority ones i find much more interesting than some of the white ones.
Noone really tried to make Maggot that interesting and he was shipped off to two or three different x-men teams in a matter of a few months or weeks.

[Blade X]

Like I've said before, I don't think anyone is for less diversity...that defeats the purpose of the X-Men, it's just in how it's done. Going back and argueing what past creators felt or how they thought of certain characters is pointless. Those 3 steps you mentioned are practical, easy to implement and business smart.

This may surprise you, but I agree with everything you said.

[Blade X]

Hell yes he could. But it shouldn't have to be confined to a stereotypical mutant, Puerto Rican, or African American. A writer should be bold enough to write him simply as a person with his own traits and quirks.

Not just shouting "Madre de Dios!" instead of "What the devil?" That's not character.

I agree with everything you said.

[pariah-1972]

Emma frost is the most hated x-character ever and noones tried to kill her off yet...

[Blade X]

Noone really tried to make Maggot that interesting and he was shipped off to two or three different x-men teams in a matter of a few months or weeks.

I thought Joe Kelly was the only writer who tried to make Maggot interesting and succeeded IMO.

[rwsmith]

Emma frost is the most hated x-character ever and noones tried to kill her off yet...

Most hated on this particular message board does not equal most hated X-character. In fact, it probably means the exact opposite.

[pariah-1972]

Most hated on this particular message board does not equal most hated X-woman. In fact, it probably means the exact opposite. I would place Vegas bets she is roundly hated by most people.

[rwsmith]

Bet she's not.

[ProfeZZor X]

If the black writer is better than the current writer, sure. But to bring in minorities for the sake of having them is stupid.

You can blame Stan Lee and Jack Kirby for that. If it weren't them, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Had they included minorities in the beginning as an integral part of the O5, then this debate would be moot. I mean every mutant on the planet couldn't possibly be caucasian during the 1960's. That is unless Xavier was secretly written in as being a racist in the beginning, then later opening his doors to other ethnicities as the civil rights movement became a reality.

I just think it was poor judgement for Marvel to come out with the Giant-Sized book with one of each ethnic group... That's like Marvel saying "Look at us, we're hip and happnin' with the times".

...Though it still doesn't erase the memories of the black-sploitation characters of that era, such as Black-Bolt, Black Goliath, and so on. But then it make you wonder about his encounter with Storm. He had met her when she was a child, and knew of her potential. Why did he wait until she was an adult to recruit her?

[pariah-1972]

You can blame Stan Lee and Jack Kirby for that. If it weren't them, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Had they included minorities in the beginning as an integral part of the O5, then this debate would be moot. That is unless Xavier was secretly written in as being a racist in the beginning, then later opening his doors to other ethnicities as the civil rights movement became a reality.

I just think it was poor judgement for Marvel to come out with the Giant-Sized book with one of each ethnic group... That's like Marvel saying "Look at us, we're hip and happnin' with the times".

...Though it still doesn't erase the memories of the black-sploitation characters of that era, such as Black-Bolt, Black Goliath, and so on.
Ummm Black Bolt is not really black dude.

[KJ_81]

You can blame Stan Lee and Jack Kirby for that. If it weren't them, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Had they included minorities in the beginning as an integral part of the O5, then this debate would be moot. I mean every mutant on the planet couldn't possibly be caucasian during the 1960's. That is unless Xavier was secretly written in as being a racist in the beginning, then later opening his doors to other ethnicities as the civil rights movement became a reality.

I just think it was poor judgement for Marvel to come out with the Giant-Sized book with one of each ethnic group... That's like Marvel saying "Look at us, we're hip and happnin' with the times".

...Though it still doesn't erase the memories of the black-sploitation characters of that era, such as Black-Bolt, Black Goliath, and so on. But then it make you wonder about his encounter with Storm. He had met her when she was a child, and knew of her potential. Why did he wait until she was an adult to recruit her?

You obviously know nothing about the creation of the Giant-Size X-Men team.
Not to mention nothing about Black Bolt.

[pariah-1972]

Black Vulcan no relation to Spock or kid Vulcan.:p

[worstblogever]

Where the heck IS Darwin, I know people have asked before, but when was he last seen? Wasnt he in WWHulk:X-Men? I wish he was around in Uncanny, I thought he was cool.

Yeah, where the heck IS he? Not even the main topic of discussion in his own thread?

To answer your question, though, he'll be back for Messiah CompleX. Brubaker answered that today in his CBR interview.

[Yoshi]

Wait, didn't he say that Darwin would have a major role in an x-book after Messiah CompleX

[worstblogever]

Wait, didn't he say that Darwin would have a major role in an x-book after Messiah CompleX

Take what ya can get. He's not going to total limbo, at least.

[Yoshi]

you speak wise words blogger.

[Brian M.]

Take what ya can get. He's not going to total limbo, at least.

He's going to the hands of a very capable writer.

[Brian Cronin]

Racial issues are very much a part of this thread's existence, so I'm not going to say that stuff is off-topic, as it is not.

But come on, folks, the racial stuff has to SORT of tie into Darwin, and it's once again gone a bit afield from that.

-Brian

[Magneto X]

It would be easier if Darwin actually appeared somewhere or allowed to do something.

[Brian M.]

It would be easier if Darwin actually appeared somewhere or allowed to do something.

Post-MC.

Worked for Layla.

[frog]

It would be easier if Darwin actually appeared somewhere or allowed to do something.

I've read that he is to play an important part in Messiah Complex.

[Magneto X]

I've read that he is to play an important part in Messiah Complex.

I'd say he could be an ace in the hole but seems like, despite all the attempts to take them out, everybody's got a lot of knowledge about the future.

Mauraders have it in Rogue's mind and in Mystique.
X-Factor has it in Layla.
X-Men have it in Blindfold.
Purifiers have it from Nimrod.
Xavier's mindrape of Masque got the diary version.
Masque may still remember it.
Huber has it by using Blindfold's powers.
Cable most likely also knows it, when he resurfaces.
Bishop's still around.
Dark Beast is still around.
And Magneto has the diaries.

This has got to be the worse job of destroying future knowledge ever.
Maybe Sinister's real plan was to get that info distributed widely!

So, anyway, Darwin's invulnerability shouldn't suprise anyone.

Hmmm ... but I bet he isn't invulnerable to mind control (unless that mind control attempts to kill him). Otherwise he'd have been in charge of Vulcan and not the other way around. Mind control doesn't affect survival usually, so maybe he'll be compromised.

[Magneto X]

Originally Posted by Magneto X
Well, that sounds constructive. Any ideas?

My first suggestion is the easiest:
Try to avoid killing and depowering the non-whites you already have. Poor Shola. He was cool. Where is Sunspot exactly?

Second: let's look at those who have already been created but not used so much (Cloak, Moses Magnum, Gateway) and see if they could be used. This might already be happening with Armor and Echo and reversing what happened to Prodigy.

Third: When it's time to create a new character, have the editor ask the writer, is there any reason it has to be another white guy? If there is (like Vulcan was a Summers' brother), fine. If not, let's see (not necessarilly require, but really try to see) if we can't represent some areas on the planet that have gone unrepresented. I bet in many cases we can do that and it will even make the character more interesting.

Fourth: avoid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_stereoypes_in_comics

That works. That's actually the first constructive thing I've seen posted in this thread in like 15 pages. It's also doable. Maybe I had you pegged wrong.

Like I've said before, I don't think anyone is for less diversity...that defeats the purpose of the X-Men, it's just in how it's done. Going back and argueing what past creators felt or how they thought of certain characters is pointless. Those 3 steps you mentioned are practical, easy to implement and business smart.

Awesome. Let's hope they do it. I think it will only make the books better.

[Brian M.]

Question:

http://www.africahit.com/news/images/articles/2007_04/1783/u1_michael_jackson.jpg

Is he a black man?

[ZNOP]

Question:Is he a black man?

He was. http://www.myclassiclyrics.com/artist_biographies/Michael_Jackson_biography.htm

Who knows what the hell happened to him. Personally, I am going with the rare disease angle:rolleyes:

[Brian M.]

He was. http://www.myclassiclyrics.com/artist_biographies/Michael_Jackson_biography.htm

Who knows what the hell happened to him. Personally, I am going with the rare disease angle:rolleyes:

But despite his characteristics...is he not still a black man?

[pariah-1972]

But despite his characteristics...is he not still a black man?Depends on if you mean appearance wise or just his racial background.

[frog]

My mother used to say that she though Michael Jackson was trying to become Elizabeth Taylor.

Whatever happened, it went very wrong somewhere along the way.

[ProfeZZor X]

My mother used to say that she though Michael Jackson was trying to become Elizabeth Taylor.

Whatever happened, it went very wrong somewhere along the way.

I thought he was a combination of Webster's cuteness, McCaulley's naive shyness, Diana Ross' eyes, and Liz's skin color.

Maybe it worked for him fifteen years ago, but not now.

[Magneto X]

My mother used to say that she though Michael Jackson was trying to become Elizabeth Taylor.

Whatever happened, it went very wrong somewhere along the way.

Although he obviously has other problems (maybe based in sexual abuse) Michael Jackson is also someone who, IMO, has dealt with the white beauty standard. He's admitted his father made fun of his dark skin and his wide nose (features that indicate African heritage). IMO, he internalized this criticism which is reflected in popular culture, thought of himself as ugly in an intense way and, in a obseessive-compulsive manner (going further and futher because he still wasn't comfortable with himself) used his riches to bleach his skin and chop at his nose.

[frog]

Although he obviously has other problems (maybe based in sexual abuse) Michael Jackson is also someone who, IMO, has dealt with the white beauty standard. He's admitted his father made fun of his dark skin and his wide nose (features that indicate African heritage). IMO, he internalized this criticism which is reflected in popular culture, thought of himself as ugly in an intense way, and bleached his skin and chopped at his nose.

From what I've read the entire Jackson family dynamics are terribly messed up. Michael was an adorable kid, it's really too bad what he has done to himself.

[Magneto X]

From what I've read the entire Jackson family dynamics are terribly messed up. Michael was an adorable kid, it's really too bad what he has done to himself.

The cause of the problems was the horrible family dynamics and the lack of perspective that comes from being a superstar. But the way those problems manifested, I think, also reflect a white beauty standard that black people often feel even when we don't have such messed up families.

[Brian M.]

So then becuase of his outward appearance is MJ no longer a black man?

[sinjection]

The cause of the problems was the horrible family dynamics and the lack of perspective that comes from being a superstar. But the way those problems manifested, I think, also reflect a white beauty standard that black people often feel even when we don't have such messed up families.

Centuries of brainwashing and other insidious forms of psychological abuse has taken its toll on our people. That's for sure. But then, there are "some people" who feel the need to inject their lips and buttocks with collagen to give those parts of their bodies a fuller, broader...dare I say, a more Nubian appearance.

This doesn't explain however, why Darwin looks more like a native of Alpha Centauri than the son of a Puerto Rican father and an African-American mother.

___sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X

By the way Magneto X, did you know there was a cult in Utah - and you know there aren't many brothers and sisters living in Utah - who believed at one time, Michael Jackson was the Arch-Angel Michael come to earth? During the time of Michael's bizarre change, the Ministher Louis Farrakhan strongly and urgently suggested to the Jackson family and anyone who would listen, that Michael was headed down a dangerous path and needed correction. Critics, mostly white, told Farrakhan to mind his own business and let Jackson do his thing.

During his big trouble with the child abuse thing, who did Michael Jackson turn to for support and comfort? Louis Farrakhan and the Nation of Islam. Of course, the Nation supported Jackson in anyway that they could.

[Brian M.]

Wait...so Michael Jackson's been brainwashed?

The question still remains...is a black character only a black character b/c of the color of his skin...

[Magneto X]

So then becuase of his outward appearance is MJ no longer a black man?

Are you having a straw man argument with yourself?

[frog]

By the way Magneto X, did you know there was a cult in Utah - and you know there aren't many brothers and sisters living in Utah - who believed at one time, Michael Jackson was the Arch-Angel Michael come to earth? During the time of Michael's bizarre change, the Ministher Louis Farrakhan strongly and urgently suggested to the Jackson family and anyone who would listen, that Michael was headed down a dangerous path and needed correction. Critics, mostly white, told Farrakhan to mind his own business and let Jackson do his thing.

During his big trouble with the child abuse thing, who did Michael Jackson turn to for support and comfort? Louis Farrakhan and the Nation of Islam. Of course, the Nation supported Jackson in anyway that they could.

Not that it has anything to do with Darwin but I find it quite ironic that Michael Jackson would turn to a homophobe for support.

[worstblogever]

Wait...so Michael Jackson's been brainwashed?

The question still remains...is a black character only a black character b/c of the color of his skin...

It doesn't matter. If you read the Black Panther/Storm wedding, they go on a vision quest for the approval of the Panther God. When they meet it, the god that T'Challa, and that all of Wakanda all worship, is white in that issue. Despite all the statues around Wakanda that are clearly black in color, when encountered in this issue, the Panther God is clearly white. This book was written by Hudlin, the most popular African American writer in comics today, so I have a hard time believing it's not a conspiracy by Marvel editorial to make all black characters white.

Darwin's white. Maybe he's the last scion of the panther god. Or maybe it's just a creative decision. It's a waste of time to read into it any deeper than that.

[Brian M.]

Not that it has anything to do with Darwin but I find it quite ironic that Michael Jackson would turn to a homophobe for support.

Isn't the Farrakhan the one who believes their is a gaint wheel orbiting the Earth waiting to take people to salvation? Or something like that...he's a little nutty and why anyone would listen to him is beyond me.

[Pach!]

Are you having a straw man argument with yourself?

LOL. So he isn't black?

[Brian M.]

Are you having a straw man argument with yourself?

No I'm trying to make a point. One that is clearly being avoided b/c I think you and I both know the answer.

Jackson is still black, despite his outward appearance, despite the things he has done to himself or the things that have happened to him. It doesn't matter what he looks like now, he is still an african american.

So is Darwin. Despite his outward appearance. He is still a black character.

Becuase looks don't matter.

[worstblogever]

Becuase looks don't matter.

As proven several times through 30 pages of this thread, but continually ignored to prolong it.

[Magneto X]

What does "good hair" mean, anyone?

No I'm trying to make a point. One that is clearly being avoided b/c I think you and I both know the answer.

Jackson is still black, despite his outward appearance, despite the things he has done to himself or the things that have happened to him. It doesn't matter what he looks like now, he is still an african american.

So is Darwin. Despite his outward appearance. He is still a black character.

Becuase looks don't matter.

A straw man argument tries to make a point too, one by mischarecterizing the point of view of the opponent. That's the kind of point made by "You're really saying this _!" Um, no. No I didn't.

MJ is black, even if he wishes he wasn't. Darwin is Black or Puerto Rican or both. Someone who is black but has albinism is not denied the right to identify as black.

But looks do matter, if only to make them stop mattering. If a teacher called on all the white students but only the light skinned black students, it would matter to the dark skinned black students and someone should say, "Stop avoiding them." If Marvel, conscious or unconsciously, is failing to proportionally represent dark skinned people, that matters not to you, but it matter to me.

If the only black people I'm willing to hire are albinos, then it isn't racist for non-abino black people to say that's pretty fucked up. It doesn't mean albino black people aren't black, just that someone would be pretty fucked up if that uber-rarity is the kind of black person they keep wanting to portray time and again.

Becuase looks don't matter.

As proven several times

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand unproven just as quickly:

Study: Shade of skin affects hiring
There may be something to that perception.

A 2006 study by University of Georgia doctoral candidate Matthew Harrison shows skin color may play a role in hiring. Psychology undergraduates, most of whom were white, were given fake photos and resumes to make hiring recommendations.

Lighter-skinned black women applicants were preferred over those with darker complexions but equal credentials. Light-skinned black men also were preferred over those with dark skin who had better credentials.

Such thinking is rooted in America's slavery past, Harrison says. Lighter-skinned children of slaves and their owners were given better treatment and less strenuous household chores than darker slaves who toiled in the fields.

"That created a lot of animosity among slaves and began to replicate itself even after slavery," Harrison said. "Once blacks were able to have their own groups, they too adhered to the whole system of lightness being better."

One of the ways they did so was the "brown paper bag" test, in which blacks whose skin was darker than the bag's color were denied inclusion into social events or organizations.

[Brian M.]

Speaking of strawman arguements...I never said a damn thing about it affecting getting a job.

[Magneto X]

I never said a damn thing about it affecting getting a job.

I never said you did, but it is an article about looks mattering. You did say looks simply don't matter. Looks matter, and specifically skin color matters, at least for getting a job. So then, what? you might still argue that those same employers, say comic editors subconsiously choosing the less-qualified applicants if they have lighter skin, they would never subconsciously design characters with lighter features?

[RolandJP]

Isn't the Farrakhan the one who believes their is a gaint wheel orbiting the Earth waiting to take people to salvation? Or something like that...he's a little nutty and why anyone would listen to him is beyond me.

Mormons have a whopper of a tale as well-- God is a lizard. and he/she/it will return one day --an inhabit a human. More than likely Mitt Romney...ohh scary. By the way, the Lizard part is true.

[worstblogever]

What does "good hair" mean, anyone?



A straw man argument tries to make a point too, one by mischarecterizing the point of view of the opponent. That's the kind of point made by "You're really saying this _!" Um, no. No I didn't.

MJ is black, even if he wishes he wasn't. Darwin is Black or Puerto Rican or both. Someone who is black but has albinism is not denied the right to identify as black.

But looks do matter, if only to make them stop mattering. If a teacher called on all the white students but only the light skinned black students, it would matter to the dark skinned black students and someone should say, "Stop avoiding them." If Marvel, conscious or unconsciously, is failing to proportionally represent dark skinned people, that matters not to you, but it matter to me.

If the only black people I'm willing to hire are albinos, then it isn't racist for non-abino black people to say that's pretty fucked up. It doesn't mean albino black people aren't black, just that someone would be pretty fucked up if that uber-rarity is the kind of black person they keep wanting to portray time and again.



Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand unproven just as quickly:

Study: Shade of skin affects hiring
There may be something to that perception.

A 2006 study by University of Georgia doctoral candidate Matthew Harrison shows skin color may play a role in hiring. Psychology undergraduates, most of whom were white, were given fake photos and resumes to make hiring recommendations.

Lighter-skinned black women applicants were preferred over those with darker complexions but equal credentials. Light-skinned black men also were preferred over those with dark skin who had better credentials.

Such thinking is rooted in America's slavery past, Harrison says. Lighter-skinned children of slaves and their owners were given better treatment and less strenuous household chores than darker slaves who toiled in the fields.

"That created a lot of animosity among slaves and began to replicate itself even after slavery," Harrison said. "Once blacks were able to have their own groups, they too adhered to the whole system of lightness being better."

One of the ways they did so was the "brown paper bag" test, in which blacks whose skin was darker than the bag's color were denied inclusion into social events or organizations.

Let me clarify... I'll try to be clear- LOOKS DON'T MATTER FOR BEING A MUTANT OR AN X-MAN. YOU'RE A MUTANT. Clear enough yet?

[Daouda]

Let me clarify... I'll try to be clear- LOOKS DON'T MATTER FOR BEING A MUTANT OR AN X-MAN. YOU'RE A MUTANT. Clear enough yet?

If looks don't matter why do all of the normal looking X-Men have white features?

Damn, open your eyes. Even Bishop was drawn with straight hair. (Even before the idea he was from Australia was floated) Were is Synch?

Why does Marvel have a problem with drawing main X-Men with unambiguous African features? Especially males?

If looks didn't matter, the artist could draw stick figures and the audience wouldn't care. Some people probably wouldn't care, but most would.

Looks do matter and by short shrifting African-American characters in an American comic franchise it really limits the appeal of said comics.

Re:MJ He is mentally ill. He is a sad commentary on just the forces that keep the X-men rife with diverse bizarre features except when realistic human features are presented. Then they must have some European aspect.

Using Micheal Jackson as an example of a white looking African-American should show you just how destructive the idea that european looks are the definition of beauty, can be to an actual human being. He mutilated himself to be white and your trying to say looks don't matter?

What is the premise of the X-Men?

Darwin can be a great character but the X-office must wise up and see that if they really want the character to stand out amongst the mutants, just make him a normal looking African-American kid.

It's alright, Synch is dead.:mad:


Excelsior!

Daoud

[sinjection]

If looks don't matter why do all of the normal looking X-Men have white features?

Damn, open your eyes. Even Bishop was drawn with straight hair. (Even before the idea he was from Australia was floated) Were is Synch?

Why does Marvel have a problem with drawing main X-Men with unambiguous African features? Especially males?

If looks didn't matter, the artist could draw stick figures and the audience wouldn't care. Some people probably wouldn't care, but most would.

Looks do matter and by short shrifting African-American characters in an American comic franchise it really limits the appeal of said comics.

Re:MJ He is mentally ill. He is a sad commentary on just the forces that keep the X-men rife with diverse bizarre features except when realistic human features are presented. Then they must have some European aspect.

Using Micheal Jackson as an example of a white looking African-American should show you just how destructive the idea that european looks are the definition of beauty, can be to an actual human being. He mutilated himself to be white and your trying to say looks don't matter?

What is the premise of the X-Men?

Darwin can be a great character but the X-office must wise up and see that if they really want the character to stand out amongst the mutants, just make him a normal looking African-American kid.

It's alright, Synch is dead.:mad:


Excelsior!

Daoud

Daoud. I believe I shall print your fine post, frame it and hang it on my wall. You have outdone yourself! You have said it all.

____sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X

[Brian M.]

Impossible to make you people see anything other than the outward appearance of someone.

[pariah-1972]

Ya know i have not been taking sides on this whole thing, but i wonder how you guys would feel if someone got all upset because the people at x-men were hiding Nightcrawler and Beasts european/white looks under there mutations.

[Pro]

I find this thread offensive to albino black hispanics.

[Jackob]

Ya know i have not been taking sides on this whole thing, but i wonder how you guys would feel if someone got all upset because the people at x-men were hiding Nightcrawler and Beasts european/white looks under there mutations.

yes with mutations mutants look differnt for the most part, even the human looking white mutants have traits that are mutant for them.
storm has white hair-polaris has green hair
angel has giant wings, iceman, somtimes gets stuck as ice
rogue has white streaks in her hair
cyke needs to be in shades all the time
wolvie looks feral

i dont buy the "white traits" conspiricy

[Pro]

He mutilated himself to be white and your trying to say looks don't matter?

He mutilated himself because his black family members laughed at his big nose. Watch the interviews, he says so himself. If MJ's story tells you anything it's that MJ's family are bastards who beat him and made fun of his black features. So no whitey wasn't to blame for that.

[pariah-1972]

Some people have to see conspiracies in everything.
if the book isn't written exactly the way it should be then it's racism.
personally i would be scared to introduce or write most black characters for fear of some kind of feedback like that.
and being a white middle class guy from oklahoma i am sure i would catch all kinds of grief for it no matter how bad or good it was written.

[frog]

Daoud. I believe I shall print your fine post, frame it and hang it on my wall. You have outdone yourself! You have said it all.

____sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X

Hey sinjection, if you've got enough time to make this pointless post surely you have enough time to give a reasoned response to my points?:)

[Joe Acro]

If looks don't matter why do all of the normal looking X-Men have white features?There's no such thing as white features. There being three different basic human bone structures on the planet is as outdated as hot-blooded and cold-blooded. They are white, though. And for many of those characters them being white makes sense. Why are they white as opposed to some mutated color? There's really no way to know.

Why does Marvel have a problem with drawing main X-Men with unambiguous African features? Especially males?I don't think they do have a problem with it. They just don't do it much.

If looks didn't matter, the artist could draw stick figures and the audience wouldn't care. Some people probably wouldn't care, but most would.Given that comics are a visual medium and often defined by how good the art is inside, people would complain about there just being stick figures. They'd feel they were cheated for their money. That is not connected to a character's skin color in a comic, which is something the buyer can easily overlook in favor of noticing how they act, what there power is, what relationships they have, etc.

Looks do matter and by short shrifting African-American characters in an American comic franchise it really limits the appeal of said comics.
It doesn't to most comic fans, as the main X-Men titles consistently rank at the top of the sales charts.

Darwin can be a great character but the X-office must wise up and see that if they really want the character to stand out amongst the mutants, just make him a normal looking African-American kid.I think his costume and odd facial structure make him stand out visually.

[Jackob]

I think his costume and odd facial structure make him stand out visually.

exactaly, being distinct looking rather than traditional, is how you make a character recognized. if he was just a normal guy, black or otherwise, he would not stand out.
like the hulk is green
beast is blue
cykes visor
wolvies hair
distinction is how you make a character stand out and get noticed, not looking like a specific prototype.

[Magneto X]

Impossible to make you people see anything other than the outward appearance of someone.

sigh.

Easy to say I guess for those with hundreds of heroes with their look.


He mutilated himself because his black family members laughed at his big nose. Watch the interviews, he says so himself. If MJ's story tells you anything it's that MJ's family are bastards who beat him and made fun of his black features. So no whitey wasn't to blame for that.

sigh.


And those insults had no social context? MJ's dad never heard those same jokes himself?

When I hear a black person make painful fun of dark skinned, kinky haired, or big nosed black people, I think that it's so sad that the vestiges of white supremacy theories have seeped so far. But you apparently think: this prooves whites have nothing to do with it, forgetting how much it was in white people's interests for hundreds of years to turn light and dark skinned blacks against each other in order to prevent unified rebellion. But ... whatever makes you feel better ... I guess. :(

[Pach!]

sigh.

Easy to say I guess for those with hundreds of heroes with their look.




sigh.


And those insults had no social context? MJ's dad never heard those same jokes himself?

When I hear a black person make painful fun of dark skinned, kinky haired, or big nosed black people, I think that it's so sad that the vestiges of white supremacy theories have seeped so far. But you apparently think: this prooves whites have nothing to do with it, forgetting how much it was in white people's interests for hundreds of years to turn light and dark skinned blacks against each other in order to prevent unified rebellion. But ... whatever makes you feel better ... I guess. :(

I agree with him and I don't have the hundreds of heroes.

[CyberHubbs]

I stayed inside and at my computer for the bulk of ten years, just so I could lose my Hispanic tan and look whiter.

[sinjection]

sigh.
And those insults had no social context? MJ's dad never heard those same jokes himself?

When I hear a black person make painful fun of dark skinned, kinky haired, or big nosed black people, I think that it's so sad that the vestiges of white supremacy theories have seeped so far. But you apparently think: this prooves whites have nothing to do with it, forgetting how much it was in white people's interests for hundreds of years to turn light and dark skinned blacks against each other in order to prevent unified rebellion. But ... whatever makes you feel better ... I guess. :(

Outstanding, Magneto X! Simply Outstanding!

Darwin's bizarre appearance could be acceptable if it weren't for the fact that he represents an already woefully under-represented racial demographic - namely black American males (not to dismiss Darwin's Puerto Rican heritage by any means), - in a genre of books which takes its very inspiration in large part from a significant episode in the history of black Americans. He should be the dashing black American/Puerto Rican male counterpart to the dazzling black American/Puerto Rican female character, Cecilia Reyes.

What I have observed in the x-genre and the reason why I don't purchase any of their product - despite the fact that I think Salvador Larocca is doing an excellent job of rendering the black and beautiful Ororo - is that I have long perceived an indifference, even a "hostile indifference" on the part of the writers of those books towards black characters, specifically black male characters and in particular, black American male characters.

But I believe that Marvel Comics has always had a bit of a problem with and a latent, thinly-veiled disdain for the black American male character all along. T'Challa was created a regal prince of a powerful African nation. I'm down with that. T'Challa is an African, not an American as so many fans have often pointed out when discussing their displeasure whenever T'Challa seems to evince any "black American traits". Luke Cage and the Falcon - two black American characters - have criminality in their background. Synch - one of few black American male mutants created - experienced the ultimate manifestation of this "thinly-veiled disdain" for such characters. He is dead. Unlike Captain America, Synch ain't coming back either.

Again, your position is sound and unassailable. Your argument impregnable, irrefutable and indomitable. I salute you.

____sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X

[CJ Lentze]

sigh.


And those insults had no social context? MJ's dad never heard those same jokes himself?

When I hear a black person make painful fun of dark skinned, kinky haired, or big nosed black people, I think that it's so sad that the vestiges of white supremacy theories have seeped so far. But you apparently think: this prooves whites have nothing to do with it, forgetting how much it was in white people's interests for hundreds of years to turn light and dark skinned blacks against each other in order to prevent unified rebellion. But ... whatever makes you feel better ... I guess. :(

I have never heard of this 'turning light and dark skinned blacks against each other for hundreds of years'... but don't you think that that doesn't matter in THIS day and age? Everyone who has a shred of intelligence acknowledges that the mistreatment of black people in predominantly white societies in the past was atrocious. But in modern societies, people of different races get along splendidly, and this has been achieved by people of ALL colours who disagreed with the inequality that abounded. It was achieved by black, yellow, AND white people.

This 'white beauty standard' Daouda spoke of earlier is only believed in by Neonazis. Today, beauty icons come from ALL ethnic backgrounds.

No one forced Michael Jackson to do what he did to himself. It was his choice, mental problems aside. Nor does anyone force African American girls to straighten out their hair (the 'good hair' you mentioned above). What saddens me is that a small but vocal number of African Americans seems not to be happy to be black at all. They NEED to break away from a 'beauty standard' that hasn't been a 'standard' for decades.



Another thing is that there has been progress -with lesser or greater success and failure- over the last century concerning tolerance and acknowledging different minorities/demographic 'groups' that were/are still underprivileged in some way. You can't deny that. The struggle is not over yet, but we're slowly moving forward. And not by twiddling thumbs, mind.
To say that the editors at Marvel have a hidden agenda OR a subconscious bias where they prefer to keep black people out of their books and out of their offices is a slap in the face of the creators, especially those who wrote/write X-Men because you KNOW they're careful to depict the consequences of bias in their books. Moreover, such an attitude would be self-destructive for Marvel.

The (American) Marvel heroes and villains in general do not depict the racial percentages of America. They don't. The Marvel Universe is pretty much set in their ways, relies heavily on continuity today, and frankly, I don't know for how long it will be around anymore. It's readership has apparently aged from pre-teens/teenagers to above-twenties (barring Marvel Age), and it may soon saturate the cinema audiences with badly plotted movies... ahem.

If you want the Marvel Universe demographics to change (admittedly for the better), write a letter to Marvel. Have a demonstration in front of their office. Rally people who are of the same mind. If I'd feel Marvel Comics would no longer meet my requirements in terms of depiction of the contemporary world and had become antiquated, I would drop the books and turn to a comics company that CAN fulfill that need.



And to be clear: it seems that we agree that looks mainly matter to bigots.

[Pro]

When I hear a black person make painful fun of dark skinned, kinky haired, or big nosed black people, I think that it's so sad that the vestiges of white supremacy theories have seeped so far. But you apparently think: this prooves whites have nothing to do with it, forgetting how much it was in white people's interests for hundreds of years to turn light and dark skinned blacks against each other in order to prevent unified rebellion. But ... whatever makes you feel better ... I guess. :(

All i'm saying is if you want to use an example MJ is a bad one because it wasn't whites who made him feel bad about himself. It was his own black family. Blaming the entire white race for MJ's problem is a load of bullshit. You can't blame white people when it's black people who perpetuate the discrimination all by themselves!

[Pro]

He should be the dashing black American/Puerto Rican male counterpart to the dazzling black American/Puerto Rican female character, Cecilia Reyes.

And Beast should not have blue fur, but be dazzling white because it's more important to show him being white than it is to show him being a mutant. After all x-men is not a fictional book about mutants.

[sinjection]

I have never heard of this 'turning light and dark skinned blacks against each other for hundreds of years'... but don't you think that that doesn't matter in THIS day and age?

In "THIS day and age" when white teenagers at a Georgia high school can vote to have their own "whites only prom". In "THIS day and age" when white teenagers, incensed that a black youth chose one day to sit beneath a tree usually "reserved" for white students, respond by hanging nooses from that tree as a sign that such activity will not be tolerated in the future. In "THIS day and age" when white celebrities like Michael Richards (of "Kramer" Seinfeld fame), Don Imus, and Duane "Dog the Bounty Hunter" Chapman and others are observed spewing their disdain for blacks. Racism is not abating in "THIS day and age". Racism is advancing in "THIS day and age".

Everyone who has a shred of intelligence acknowledges that the mistreatment of black people in predominantly white societies in the past was atrocious.

And of that "everyone" there exist those who believe such "mistreatment" was and is a thing of the past, choosing to ignore how such "mistreatment" is continuing on and "mutating" into something even more insidious in "THIS day and age".

But in modern societies, people of different races get along splendidly, and this has been achieved by people of ALL colours who disagreed with the inequality that abounded. It was achieved by black, yellow, AND white people.

Spain would be a "modern society" I would think. Black soccer players can't even take the pitch without Spanish fans making "monkey" jokes and noises in an attempt to be derisive of those black players. That is just an example of the tip of the iceberg in what is truly going on in "modern societies". The "Rainbow Coalition" only exists as an organization founded by the Rev Jesse Jackson. The "melting pot" is a lie.

This 'white beauty standard' Daouda spoke of earlier is only believed in by Neonazis.

Simply not true. The so-called "white beauty standard" is universal until a beauty like Iman emerges that puts the lie to that belief.

Nor does anyone force African American girls to straighten out their hair (the 'good hair' you mentioned above).

Again, simply not true. A black female hoping to be employed by many businesses in this nation know and at times have been told that to wear their hair "naturally" is not acceptable by many of the companies she might want to work for. Only recently have many companies accepted the "cornrow" hairstyle being worn by black American females. Otherwise, black American females need always perm their hair to be eligible for many educational and employment opportunities in this still very racist nation.


To say that the editors at Marvel have a hidden agenda OR a subconscious bias where they prefer to keep black people out of their books and out of their offices is a slap in the face of the creators, especially those who wrote/write X-Men because you KNOW they're careful to depict the consequences of bias in their books. Moreover, such an attitude would be self-destructive for Marvel.

Some of you truly need to read some of the comments of Christopher Priest discussing racism and racist or racially-indifferent attitudes which pervade the offices of Marvel comics. When Marvel creates black American superheroes like the Falcon and Luke Cage - giving each character a criminal background - that seems to me to be a "slap in the face" - especially in light of the fact that the black American mutant character Prodigy - who had no criminal behavior and is a "straight arrow" - has been depowered, that another black American mutant Synch, another outstanding black American mutant character has been killed, and how black male characters of any ethnicity always seem to be "weaker" and subservient to all white male characters with whom they interact.

Add to the preceeding, stories which have been written depicting the abrupt "change of powers" of a female black mutant who derived her powers from her capacity to hate, suddenly forgetting how to hate long enough to fall in love with a white racist villain who eventually kills her, stories which have been written depicting the abduction, imprisonment and repeated rape of a married black female by a white sexually perverted and obsessed South African official: add to the preceeding, stories which depict the mutant Cloak in an unrequited love relationship with his partner which is mirrored by a similar relationship between Ultimate Ororo and the ultimate version of that mutant whose name I refuse to type.

If you want the Marvel Universe demographics to change (admittedly for the better), write a letter to Marvel. Have a demonstration in front of their office. Rally people who are of the same mind. If I'd feel Marvel Comics would no longer meet my requirements in terms of depiction of the contemporary world and had become antiquated, I would drop the books and turn to a comics company that CAN fulfill that need.

I would suggest that most black readers of comicbooks do as I have done and stop buying x-related publications altogether. However to do so might be cutting off the nose to spite the face as that would put many white writers who have been responsible for the creation of mutants who have the exterior appearances of Bling and Darwin, who have been responsible for creating an abominable love/sexual relationship between a blue bigfoot and a lovely black female character, and who have evinced an attitude that they would really rather not have black characters in their books in the first place...for blacks to truly become ignorant of what occurs in the x-books would to give many of its white writers license to subject the black mutant Storm to all types of obscenities and disgraces.

Still, the black comicbook fan needs to find some way to hurt Marvel Comics where it hurts to make them cease and desist in these insulting practices against black American and black characters in general.

DC comics has become far more progressive in their depiction of black characters both male and female. This is why at this time, I purchase one Marvel Comics title regularly - THE BLACK PANTHER and purchase one or more DC Comics title.


____sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X

[frog]

Sinjection! I'm so thrilled to see you post again! :) I worry each time that you say you are leaving you really mean it.:(
In "THIS day and age" when white teenagers at a Georgia high school can vote to have their own "whites only prom". In "THIS day and age" when white teenagers, incensed that a black youth chose one day to sit beneath a tree usually "reserved" for white students, respond by hanging nooses from that tree as a sign that such activity will not be tolerated in the future. In "THIS day and age" when white celebrities like Michael Richards (of "Kramer" Seinfeld fame), Duane "Dog the Bounty Hunter" Chapman and others are observed spewing their disdain for blacks. Racism is not abating in "THIS day and age". Racism is advancing in "THIS day and age". That's just the actions of a few individuals, my dear. When I look around I see people of all colors in ethnicities working together, attending school together , eating together and hanging out together. Surely you can't believe things are truly worse than when we were all segregated as you would have black Marvel characters be in Wakanda?



And of that "everyone" there exist those who believe such "mistreatment" was and is a thing of the past, choosing to ignore how such "mistreatment" is continuing on and "mutating" into something even more insidious in "THIS day and age". My good friend, such people are very few. If you look so hard you'll certainly find them. Why not look for the good instead?



would be a "modern society" I would think. Black soccer players can't even take the pitch without Spanish fans making "monkey" jokes and noises in an attempt to be derisive of those black players. That is just an example of the tip of the iceberg in what is truly going on in "modern societies". The "Rainbow Coalition" only exists as an organization founded by the Rev Jesse Jackson. The "melting pot" is a lie. The melting pot is a true phenomena! Everyday I see happy interracial couples with beautiful children of mixed race!



Simply not true. The so-called "white beauty standard" is universal until a beauty like Iman emerges that puts the lie to that belief.Yes, it's really too bad so many people judge women only on their outside isn't it? I live for the day when ugly women are celebrated!



Again, simply not true. A black female hoping to be employed by many businesses in this nation know and at times have been told that to wear their hair "naturally" is not acceptable by many of the companies she might want to work for. Only recently have many companies accepted the "cornrow" hairstyle being worn by black American females. Otherwise, black American females need always perm their hair to be eligible for many educational and employment opportunities in this still very racist nation.Cites? Statistics?




Some of you truly need to read some of the comments of Christopher Priest discussing racism and racist or racially-indifferent attitudes which pervade the offices of Marvel comics. When Marvel creates black American superheroes like the Falcon and Luke Cage - giving each character a criminal background - that seems to me to be a "slap in the face" - especially in light of the fact that the black American mutant character Prodigy - who had no criminal behavior and is a "straight arrow" - has been depowered, that another black American mutant Synch, another outstanding black American mutant character has been killed, and how black male characters of any ethnicity always seem to be "weaker" and subservient to all white male characters with whom they interact.

Add to the preceeding, stories which have been written depicting the abrupt "change of powers" of a female black mutant who derived her powers from her capacity to hate, suddenly forgetting how to hate long enough to fall in love with a white racist villain who eventually kills her, stories which have been written depicting the abduction, imprisonment and repeated rape of a married black female by a white sexually perverted and obsessed South African official: add to the preceeding, stories which depict the mutant Cloak in an unrequited love relationship with his partner which is mirrored by a similar relationship between Ultimate Ororo and the ultimate version of that mutant whose name I refuse to type. Wow! You mean to say that black characters can never come from hard knock backgrounds and work their way up? That isn't very inspiring. And I hardly think the abduction of a married black female by a white villian was meant to make the white race look better, don't you agree? And poor Cloak, yes he should definitely find love, maybe Dagger will come around and they'll have beautiful mixed race babies! As for Ultimate Storm, you know she's still pining for Beast!



I would suggest that most black readers of comicbooks do as I have done and stop buying x-related publications altogether. However to do so might be cutting off the nose to spite the face as that would put many white writers who have been responsible for the creation of mutants who have the exterior appearances of Bling and Darwin, who have been responsible for creating an abominable love/sexual relationship between a blue bigfoot and a lovely black female character, and who have evinced an attitude that they would really rather not have black characters in their books in the first place...for blacks to truly become ignorant of what occurs in the x-books would to give many of its white writers license to subject the black mutant Storm to all types of obscenities and disgraces.

Still, the black comicbook fan needs to find some way to hurt Marvel Comics where it hurts to make them cease and desist in these insulting practices against black American and black characters in general.


____sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X

Ah, you still can't believe that a woman would pick a man based on his lovely inner-self. So very backwards. I worry about you.:(

If Cloak won't be the one to choose an unattractive woman as his partner perhaps Darwin will. He seems to be a very understanding and gentle man that might harbor such a noble spirit!:)

[Magneto X]

And Beast should not have blue fur, but be dazzling white because it's more important to show him being white than it is to show him being a mutant. After all x-men is not a fictional book about mutants.

God have we come so opposite-of-far in this conversation? You still think that having 3% (say) of the hundred plus prominent white characters having blue hair (and because of Beat's pre fur days and both of their image inducers) few if any people not knowing they are white, --- that's the same as having half the prominant black characters (less than ten) having white characteristics (pale skin, blue eyes, etc). To you that's just the same. Two blue white guys is all you need to totally dismiss our concern?

All i'm saying is if you want to use an example MJ is a bad one because it wasn't whites who made him feel bad about himself. It was his own black family. Blaming the entire white race for MJ's problem is a load of bullshit. You can't blame white people when it's black people who perpetuate the discrimination all by themselves!

It wasn't I who made MJ an example, but someone arguing in agreement with you. But when someone says anti-black racism has nothing to do with how he feels about himself, I think that's not true.

I have never heard of this 'turning light and dark skinned blacks against each other for hundreds of years'... but don't you think that that doesn't matter in THIS day and age? Everyone who has a shred of intelligence acknowledges that the mistreatment of black people in predominantly white societies in the past was atrocious. But in modern societies, people of different races get along splendidly,

Spledidly is very rose colored glasses of you. The last case of slavery was proseucted in te 70s. Desegregation hasn't fully been implemented yet. Blacks and Latinos have a major hiring disadvantage (easily checked by studies that send similar resumes but with "Curtis Jackson" "Pedro Gonzalez" and "Thomas Keenan" as the names and note that whites have several times the advantage). The black white wealth gap shows that inheritence and networking and other advantages mean the average white person still has several times the wealth of the average black person And people of color are poorly represented in numerous area, one of them being comic heroes. I don't find that splendid just quite yet. People were getting lynched when my parents grew up, and I got called nigger when I grew up, and a black guy traveling through Florida got set on fire, and one in Texas got drug to death by a pickup, and one in Chicago got niggers and a baseball bat to the windshield for driving through an Italian neighborhood, so let's wait until the next generation gets it's chance before we call it a day, why don't we?

And to be clear: it seems that we agree that looks mainly matter to bigots.

True. And once people of color have at least something close to fair and proportinal representation in the books, I won't have to bring it up.

[sinjection]

And those insults had no social context? MJ's dad never heard those same jokes himself?

When I hear a black person make painful fun of dark skinned, kinky haired, or big nosed black people, I think that it's so sad that the vestiges of white supremacy theories have seeped so far. But you apparently think: this prooves whites have nothing to do with it, forgetting how much it was in white people's interests for hundreds of years to turn light and dark skinned blacks against each other in order to prevent unified rebellion. But ... whatever makes you feel better ... I guess. :(

Don't despair, Magneto X. Let there be no "purple faces of gloom". Don't pout, brother. Continue to let it out. Your posts are a powerful shout of truth on a subject of some importance to the black American comicbook reader.

Thomas Jefferson said this: "All men are created equal".

Jefferson - who like Anton Pretorious had a questionable (to say the least), sexual relationship with a young, black female entrapped by his "white massa" authority - also said the following:

"It will probably be asked, Why not retain and incorporate the blacks into the state, and thus save the expense of supplying by importation of white settlers, the vacancies they will leave? Deep rooted prejudices entertained by the whites; then thousand recollections, by the blacks, of the injuries they have sustained; new provocations; the real distinctions which nature has made; and many other circumstances, will divide us into parties, and produce convulsions, which will probably never end but in the extermination of the one or the other race.

To these objections, which are political, may be added others, which are physical and moral. The first difference which strikes us is that of color. Whether the black of the negro resides in the reticular membrane between the skin and the scarf-skin, or in the scarf-skin itself; whether it proceeds from the colour of the blood, the colour of the bile, or from that of some other secretion, the difference is fixed in nature, and is as real as if its seat and cause were better known to us. And is this difference of no importance? Is it not the foundation of a greater or less share of beauty in the two races? Are not the fine mixtures of red and white, the expressions of every passion by greater or lesser suffusions of colour in the one preferable to that eternal monotony, which reigns in the countenances, that immoveable veil of black which covers all the emotions of the other race?

Add to these, flowing hair, a more elegant symmetry of form, their own judgement in favour of whites, declared by their preference of them, as uniformly as is the preference of the oranootan (ornagutan), for the black women over those of his own species." ___ Thomas Jefferson, Founding Father.

So you see Magneto X, you're right on point. Jefferson says the orangutan favors black women over female orangutans. And look. Here's Hank McCoy who is a...furry beast... involved sexually and responsible for the impregnation of a black female. I prefer Storm as she was created. This includes her long, flowing hair and blue, feline eyes. This is not to say that I don't see and respect the observations you've made how Storm's appearance only feeds into the long held belief by whites throughout the centuries that white beauty is the one and only beauty that counts.

___sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X

[frog]

Don't despair, Magneto X. Let there be no "purple faces of gloom". Don't pout, brother. Continue to let it out. Your posts are a powerful shout of truth on a subject of some importance to the black American comicbook reader.

Thomas Jefferson said this: "All men are created equal".

Jefferson - who like Anton Pretorious had a questionable (to say the least), sexual relationship with a young, black female entrapped by his "white massa" authority - also said the following:

"It will probably be asked, Why not retain and incorporate the blacks into the state, and thus save the expense of supplying by importation of white settlers, the vacancies they will leave? Deep rooted prejudices entertained by the whites; then thousand recollections, by the blacks, of the injuries they have sustained; new provocations; the real distinctions which nature has made; and many other circumstances, will divide us into parties, and produce convulsions, which will probably never end but in the extermination of the one or the other race.

To these objections, which are political, may be added others, which are physical and moral. The first difference which strikes us is that of color. Whether the black of the negro resides in the reticular membrane between the skin and the scarf-skin, or in the scarf-skin itself; whether it proceeds from the colour of the blood, the colour of the bile, or from that of some other secretion, the difference is fixed in nature, and is as real as if its seat and cause were better known to us. And is this difference of no importance? Is it not the foundation of a greater or less share of beauty in the two races? Are not the fine mixtures of red and white, the expressions of every passion by greater or lesser suffusions of colour in the one preferable to that eternal monotony, which reigns in the countenances, that immoveable veil of black which covers all the emotions of the other race?

Add to these, flowing hair, a more elegant symmetry of form, their own judgement in favour of whites, declared by their preference of them, as uniformly as is the preference of the oranootan (ornagutan), for the black women over those of his own species." ___ Thomas Jefferson, Founding Father.

So you see Magneto X, you're right on point. Jefferson says the orangutan favors black women over female orangutans. And look. Here's Hank McCoy who is a...furry beast... involved sexually and responsible for the impregnation of a black female. I prefer Storm as she was created. This includes her long, flowing hair and blue, feline eyes. This is not to say that I don't see and respect the observations you've made how Storm's appearance only feeds into the long held belief by whites throughout the centuries that white beauty is the one and only beauty that counts.

___sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X

Sinjection, darling, will you never learn that brilliant Hank McCoy is only a beast on the outside? We all did evolve from the same family tree as did the monkeys - doesn't that make us all brothers and sisters? Why pick on poor Hank when he's just a little more hirsute than most? Smart Ceci doesn't hold it against him!:)

Let Beast and Cecilia's love be and bring the discussion back to Darwin. Darwin has the ability to evolve to survive. Perhaps he's the man for Rogue as he might be able to evolve to handle her touch without losing himself. You like? :D

[Jackob]

Some of you truly need to read some of the comments of Christopher Priest discussing racism and racist or racially-indifferent attitudes which pervade the offices of Marvel comics. When Marvel creates black American superheroes like the Falcon and Luke Cage - giving each character a criminal background - that seems to me to be a "slap in the face" - especially in light of the fact that the black American mutant character Prodigy - who had no criminal behavior and is a "straight arrow" - has been depowered, that another black American mutant Synch, another outstanding black American mutant character has been killed, and how black male characters of any ethnicity always seem to be "weaker" and subservient to all white male characters with whom they interact.

Add to the preceeding, stories which have been written depicting the abrupt "change of powers" of a female black mutant who derived her powers from her capacity to hate, suddenly forgetting how to hate long enough to fall in love with a white racist villain who eventually kills her, stories which have been written depicting the abduction, imprisonment and repeated rape of a married black female by a white sexually perverted and obsessed South African official: add to the preceeding, stories which depict the mutant Cloak in an unrequited love relationship with his partner which is mirrored by a similar relationship between Ultimate Ororo and the ultimate version of that mutant whose name I refuse to type.



____sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X

if you actualy read new x-men you would see that even though he was depowerd, he still was leading a team of x-men, and now he sortof has his powerback and is incharger of the new x-mens training. if you wanted to suport black character like prodigy, you should read new x-men.

and yes sync is dead, so is skin and banshee they died in gen x too.

and the BPs mom thing that was writen as a bad thing, not a good thing. bad stuff hapens to comic book characters. that is in no way an example of mistretment of black characters.

and why would james logan howllet not want to date storm, what makes him unfit.

but on topic, drawin is recognisable in this form, that means that his character has a shot at surviving. if he just looked super ordenary, no one would care. all x-men have things that make them look diferent, why shouldnt darwin.

[CaptainCanada]

Here's Hank McCoy who is a...furry beast... involved sexually and responsible for the impregnation of a black female.
Beast is one of the smartest, most cultured, educated mutants out there; again, you seem to have some kind of bias against his appearance.

[Jackob]

Sinjection, darling, will you never learn that brilliant Hank McCoy is only a beast on the outside? We all did evolve from the same family tree as did the monkeys - doesn't that make us all brothers and sisters? Why pick on poor Hank when he's just a little more hirsute than most? Smart Ceci doesn't hold it against him!:)

Let Beast and Cecilia's love be and bring the discussion back to Darwin. Darwin has the ability to evolve to survive. Perhaps he's the man for Rogue as he might be able to evolve to handle her touch without losing himself. You like? :D

that might actualy work for rogues love life, plus he could survive gambit throwing a charged card into his face, so win win.:D

[Jackob]

Beast is one of the smartest, most cultured, educated mutants out there; again, you seem to have some kind of bias against his appearance.

exactly, he is a genius that truned furry, not a blue lion that went to grad school.

[frog]

that might actualy work for rogues love life, plus he could survive gambit throwing a charged card into his face, so win win.:D

I think it's an inspired idea! So many people are tired of the Gambit/Rogue never-ending drama so I think they'd welcome Darwin/Rogue with cries of jubilation!

[sinjection]

if you actualy read new x-men you would see that even though he was depowerd, he still was leading a team of x-men, and now he sortof has his powerback and is incharger of the new x-mens training. if you wanted to suport black character like prodigy, you should read new x-men.

David could whup justin's a$$ not just one time, but 101 times. That still would not induce me to purchase what I see as a crappy book of a crappy mini-franchise of books.

and yes sync is dead, so is skin and banshee they died in gen x too.

Skin and Banshee are not my primary concern - and I was a huge Banshee fan back in the day. Synch, Bling, Darwin, Storm, other depowered or deceased black mutants and black Marvel Comics characters in general are my primary focus, sir.

and the BPs mom thing that was writen as a bad thing, not a good thing. bad stuff hapens to comic book characters. that is in no way an example of mistretment of black characters.

Then you haven't looked carefully enough or you lack the capacity or the will to see what is plain before your face.

but on topic, drawin is recognisable in this form, that means that his character has a shot at surviving. if he just looked super ordenary, no one would care. all x-men have things that make them look diferent, why shouldnt darwin.

Thank you, Jackob. You've come through for me once again. Darwin has a chance of surviving because he is recognizable as a freakishly-mutated black/Puerto Rican character. Another poster indicated in an earlier posting that he wasn't even aware that Darwin was black. That bodes well for Darwin I guess. However, the black and beautiful male character Synch - lover of the beautiful Monet who is now relegated to having sex with the duplicate of a whacked-out white mutant - was too recognizable as being black and beautiful.

Synch is deader than a doorknob.

____sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X

[Jackob]

I think it's an inspired idea! So many people are tired of the Gambit/Rogue never-ending drama so I think they'd welcome Darwin/Rogue with cries of jubilation!
of course, the question now is how old is darwin, i know he spent ten years in space, but he didnt age so rogue might be perving out on him.:eek:

[frog]

David could whup justin's a$$ not just one time, but 101 times. That still would not induce me to purchase what I see as a crappy book of a crappy mini-franchise of books. Right you are, we don't want to see David beating up constantly on Julian. We want to see them be best friends!:D



Then you haven't looked carefully enough or you lack the capacity or the will to see what is plain before your face. You truly think a white madman was intended to bring glory to whites? Such bizarre reasoning, my friend!



Thank you, Jackob. You've come through for me once again. Darwin has a chance of surviving because he is recognizable as a freakishly-mutated black/Puerto Rican character. Another poster indicated in an earlier posting that he wasn't even aware that Darwin was black. That bodes well for Darwin I guess. However, the black and beautiful male character Synch - lover of the beautiful Monet who is now relegated to having sex with the duplicate of a whacked-out white mutant - was too recognizable as being black and beautiful.

Synch is deader than a doorknob.

____sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X

Poor Darwin, no one looks to see what is inside, just as no one looks at plain females. I'm rooting for Rogue and Darwin to get together and have lovely children of any possible color!:)

[Jackob]

David could whup justin's a$$ not just one time, but 101 times. That still would not induce me to purchase what I see as a crappy book of a crappy mini-franchise of books.



Skin and Banshee are not my primary concern - and I was a huge Banshee fan back in the day. Synch, Bling, Darwin, Storm, other depowered or deceased black mutants and black Marvel Comics characters in general are my primary focus, sir.



Then you haven't looked carefully enough or you lack the capacity or the will to see what is plain before your face.



Thank you, Jackob. You've come through for me once again. Darwin has a chance of surviving because he is recognizable as a freakishly-mutated black/Puerto Rican character. Another poster indicated in an earlier posting that he wasn't even aware that Darwin was black. That bodes well for Darwin I guess. However, the black and beautiful male character Synch - lover of the beautiful Monet who is now relegated to having sex with the duplicate of a whacked-out white mutant - was too recognizable as being black and beautiful.

Synch is deader than a doorknob.

____sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X
who is justin?
and as i said bad things happen to comic characters, it is not a conspiracy

but on to darwin, the x-men are a colection of freaks that has banded together to make the world safe to be diferent. if being noticably black got you killed just for that in comics, how come storm lead the team, and how come bishop has been around for almost 20 years. the characters that survive are the ones with cool powers, cool personalitys, and cool looks. so darwin has all 3. and his look is like an alien, like beasts fur, nightcrawlers tall, wolvies trollness, cykes visor, angels wings, storms hair, ect...

[frog]

of course, the question now is how old is darwin, i know he spent ten years in space, but he didnt age so rogue might be perving out on him.:eek:

There is that, but some people have no problem pairing much older men with young women so why not an older woman with a young man? Rogue has had so many experiences through her power, so there is much that she could teach Darwin!

[Jackob]

Right you are, we don't want to see David beating up constantly on Julian. We want to see them be best friends!:D



You truly think a white madman was intended to bring glory to whites? Such bizarre reasoning, my friend!





Poor Darwin, no one looks to see what is inside, just as no one looks at plain females. I'm rooting for Rogue and Darwin to get together and have lovely children of any possible color!:)
i just thought of their kids power, who ever it touches it absorbs their taits to help it survive for a short time.

[Jackob]

There is that, but some people have no problem pairing much older men with young women so why not an older woman with a young man? Rogue has had so many experiences through her power, so there is much that she could teach Darwin!
true i just dont want chris hanson to step out of a back room in the x-mansion with chat logs to ask "so what were you planing on doing today"

[frog]

true i just dont want chris hanson to step out of a back room in the x-mansion with chat logs to ask "so what were you planing on doing today"

Now that would be a story we hadn't seen before! :eek:

[Jackob]

Now that would be a story we hadn't seen before! :eek:

next on dateline: to catch a predator X:D

[Pro]

as uniformly as is the preference of the oranootan (ornagutan), for the black women over those of his own species." ___ Thomas Jefferson, Founding Father.

Honestly you're trying to convince people all white marvel employees are racists and you quote a guy who thinks orangutans prefer black women over their own species, a guy who's been dead for over 300 years, from a time slavery wasn't yet abolished and who hasnt read a single comic in his life?
Can your arguments be any more laughable?

Nobody's argueing there shouldn't be more diversity in the comics, nobody is argueing that the reason x-men were white when they first appeared was because of the racial mentality in those days.

But you yourself said the x-men were created in the image of the struggle for black equality. And you're doing your own cause a great disfavor with your ridiculous argumentations and accusations. All they do is showcase your own prejudism versus whites, your own ignorance towards other races, your unwillingness to see that a person needs to be judged on his intelligence, his humanity, his empathy, not his looks.

Again nobody's argueing there shouldn't be more diversity in comics. What you keep discussing in every thread concerning black characters though is how important skincolor is.

If a white guy person places such importance on skincolor, if a white person says people should marry within their own race he is called a racist (and justifiably so). But not you, you're a rebel, fighting the white man's oppression. You define yourself through selfpity because it means you don't have to take responsibility for yourself. If you fail at life you can always blame whitey. You claim to be saying:"I"m black and i'm proud" but what i keep hearing is: "Pity me, i'm a black man, whitey is out to get me".

[sinjection]

who is justin?

As you can see, that character's name - as are most of the so-called New X-Men with the exception of Noriko - and their characterizations as well, are irrelevant to me. That boy's name could be jujube and I'd still think he was a punk.

and as i said bad things happen to comic characters, it is not a conspiracy

And because YOU'VE said it, then of course, it must be so, Jackob :rolleyes:

but on to darwin, the x-men are a colection of freaks that has banded together to make the world safe to be diferent. if being noticably black got you killed just for that in comics, how come storm lead the team, and how come bishop has been around for almost 20 years. the characters that survive are the ones with cool powers, cool personalitys, and cool looks. so darwin has all 3. and his look is like an alien, like beasts fur, nightcrawlers tall, wolvies trollness, cykes visor, angels wings, storms hair, ect...

How convenient it must be for you to forget all of the "Is Storm beyond race?" comments and the "Bishop isn't really black. He's an Australian Aboriginine". comments that have abounded on this board.

Those characters only become "black" for you when you want to prove some kind of point. Otherwise, Ororo is a "patchwork quilt" of all humanity.

Darwin will survive because many readers of the book don't even realize he is a black American/Puerto Rican character. Period.

____sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X

[frog]

next on dateline: to catch a predator X:D

I'd tune in! :D

[Pro]

of course, the question now is how old is darwin, i know he spent ten years in space, but he didnt age so rogue might be perving out on him.:eek:

I expect he is about as old as the New x-men team, a little older perhaps. That particular team was not old enough to live on their own when they were picked up by Moira so i expect they were around 17 years old.

[Jackob]

As you can see, that character's name - as are most of the so-called New X-Men with the exception of Noriko - and their characterizations as well, are irrelevant to me. That boy's name could be jujube and I'd still think he was a punk.



And because YOU'VE said it, then of course, it must be so, Jackob :rolleyes:



How convenient it must be for you to forget all of the "Is Storm beyond race?" comments and the "Bishop isn't really black. He's an Australian Aboriginine". comments that have abounded on this board.

Those characters only become "black" for you when you want to prove some kind of point. Otherwise, Ororo is a "patchwork quilt" of all humanity.

Darwin will survive because many readers of the book don't even realize he is a black American/Puerto Rican character. Period.

____sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X
ive never said that storm and bishop arnt black, i think you just say they arnt when you want to prove a point.

[Jackob]

I expect he is about as old as the New x-men team, a little older perhaps. That particular team was not old enough to live on their own when they were picked up by Moira so i expect they were around 17 years old.

of course he could evolve into being 18 if that ment he got to be with rogue.

[frog]

As you can see, that character's name - as are most of the so-called New X-Men with the exception of Noriko - and their characterizations as well, are irrelevant to me. That boy's name could be jujube and I'd still think he was a punk. Oh dear, you should really be careful about things like this. It will lead people to think that you don't have your facts right.:(



And because YOU'VE said it, then of course, it must be so, Jackob :rolleyes: Surely Jackob's views are as valid as anyone else's!:)



How convenient it must be for you to forget all of the "Is Storm beyond race?" comments and the "Bishop isn't really black. He's an Australian Aboriginine". comments that have abounded on this board.

Those characters only become "black" for you when you want to prove some kind of point. Otherwise, Ororo is a "patchwork quilt" of all humanity.

Darwin will survive because many readers of the book don't even realize he is a black American/Puerto Rican character. Period.

____sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X

But, sinjection, you've enlightened us all that Darwin is black and we're still showing him love! Aren't you proud?:)

[frog]

I expect he is about as old as the New x-men team, a little older perhaps. That particular team was not old enough to live on their own when they were picked up by Moira so i expect they were around 17 years old.

Oh dear. That would get Rogue arrested here. Of course they could run off to South America together!

[Jackob]

Oh dear. That would get Rogue arrested here. Of course they could run off to South America together!

of course, look up his birth certificate and you ad several years to his legal age.;)

[Pro]

Darwin will survive because many readers of the book don't even realize he is a black American/Puerto Rican character. Period.

Read Deadly Genesis. Read Darwin's background story. Loved him from his first appearance. Whether he is black or chalky white doesn't matter to me.

The character is a favorite of mine because of his ability to forgive Charles whereas Gabriel couldn't, because of his naieve innocence, his willingness to do what is right even if it means leaping into dangerous situations. I like him because his powerset is the very definition of mutation. And i love the codename: Darwin the evolving boy.

Those are the things that drew me to the character, not a lack of realising he was black.

[frog]

Read Deadly Genesis. Read Darwin's background story. Loved him from his first appearance. Whether he is black or chalky white doesn't matter to me.

The character is a favorite of mine because of his ability to forgive Charles whereas Gabriel couldn't, because of his naieve innocence, his willingness to do what is right even if it means leaping into dangerous situations. I like him because his powerset is the very definition of mutation. And i love the codename: Darwin the evolving boy.

Those are the things that drew me to the character, not a lack of realising he was black.

Darwin is sweet and brave character. Too bad more don't emulate him.

[Jackob]

Darwin is sweet and brave character. Too bad more don't emulate him.

i know it makes me said seeing scott mean to X:( i understand he is pissed, most of his family is dead or lost in space and chuck has a hand in that, but i think cyke should lead the mutants, but not be mean to chuck.

[xmanson]

Why don't you all just let sinjection drown in his own bile?

[frog]

Why don't you all just let sinjection drown in his own bile?

Because we're having a nice discussion about Darwin.

[Jackob]

Because we're having a nice discussion about Darwin.

and rogue and there future kids.

[Jackob]

i just hope darwin finds a place in MC

[CJ Lentze]

Spledidly is very rose colored glasses of you. The last case of slavery was proseucted in te 70s. Desegregation hasn't fully been implemented yet. Blacks and Latinos have a major hiring disadvantage (easily checked by studies that send similar resumes but with "Curtis Jackson" "Pedro Gonzalez" and "Thomas Keenan" as the names and note that whites have several times the advantage). The black white wealth gap shows that inheritence and networking and other advantages mean the average white person still has several times the wealth of the average black person And people of color are poorly represented in numerous area, one of them being comic heroes. I don't find that splendid just quite yet. People were getting lynched when my parents grew up, and I got called nigger when I grew up, and a black guy traveling through Florida got set on fire, and one in Texas got drug to death by a pickup, and one in Chicago got niggers and a baseball bat to the windshield for driving through an Italian neighborhood, so let's wait until the next generation gets it's chance before we call it a day, why don't we?

The next generation will still know bigotry and the horrible things that come from that bigotry like the ones you mention above. But I hope that generation will look back on our time and shake their heads at what was WRONG with the previous generation, while still keeping in mind everything that has been achieved/corrected in the past and is still being achieved in the present. All the victories, be they ever so little. And that generation, in turn, will have their own victories and defeats. I'm a hopeless optimist.


I'm aware that I used a gigantic generalisation in my above post -I know that neither the world nor America are uniform; that discrimination, racism, sexism occurs throughout the world in various degrees and various forms even in the most 'tolerant' and 'liberal' of places. It's far from perfect or even ideal. It needs work, people need to act to change it. And I guess I don't quite know where you're coming from, not living in America myself AND never having been the victim of racism. No one judges me on colour and I sometimes forget what a privilege that is.

True. And once people of color have at least something close to fair and proportinal representation in the books, I won't have to bring it up.

I'm curious to know whether you plan to personally address Marvel on this issue. If this is what you truly believe must change now, you should go for it.

You could even send Marvel a letter concerning Darwin, explaining that you are worried about how he has been depicted. He is appearing after Messiah CompleX, so there is still time.

On topic: how DO you want Armando to look, Magneto X? Should he keep his unusual eyes and the shape of his head?

[Joe Acro]

Racism is advancing in "THIS day and age".I don't see a rise in racism. Racism is always present and will always be present. To think otherwise is ignorant or fantasy. Just because you can find examples of racism across this nation doesn't mean Marvel is inherently or even subconsciously prejudice.

The "melting pot" is a lie.True. It's really more of a smorgasbord.

Simply not true. The so-called "white beauty standard" is universal until a beauty like Iman emerges that puts the lie to that belief.Universal implies everyone believes in such a standard. And since I've never met anyone who does, I think you're exaggerating.

Some of you truly need to read some of the comments of Christopher Priest discussing racism and racist or racially-indifferent attitudes which pervade the offices of Marvel comics. When Marvel creates black American superheroes like the Falcon and Luke Cage - giving each character a criminal background - that seems to me to be a "slap in the face" - especially in light of the fact that the black American mutant character Prodigy - who had no criminal behavior and is a "straight arrow" - has been depowered, that another black American mutant Synch, another outstanding black American mutant character has been killed, and how black male characters of any ethnicity always seem to be "weaker" and subservient to all white male characters with whom they interact.Or maybe they create Falcon and Luke Cage as former criminals to show them overcoming their pasts and becoming productive, likable members of their society. It's not like there aren't heroes of other races that don't have questionable backgrounds. And maybe they depowered Prodigy not only to show how he could be productive without powers, but also to show his importance to the team, as other mutants who have lost their powers are no longer with the X-Men.

And black characters being weaker than white characters simply isn't true, at least not all the time.

I would suggest that most black readers of comicbooks do as I have done and stop buying x-related publications altogether. However to do so might be cutting off the nose to spite the face as that would put many white writers who have been responsible for the creation of mutants who have the exterior appearances of Bling and Darwin, who have been responsible for creating an abominable love/sexual relationship between a blue bigfoot and a lovely black female character, and who have evinced an attitude that they would really rather not have black characters in their books in the first placeDon't presume to know what people at Marvel want or don't want. You don't work there. You don't know anyone who currently works there. You can't possibly know that writers don't want to have black characters in their books.

Still, the black comicbook fan needs to find some way to hurt Marvel Comics where it hurts to make them cease and desist in these insulting practices against black American and black characters in general.I think it's a lot of implied insult, honestly. And if they're really insulting you, complaining on a forum or not buying the titles in questions simply doesn't send the message you want. You need to tell them directly in a letter or a protest. It's that simple.

DC comics has become far more progressive in their depiction of black characters both male and female. This is why at this time, I purchase one Marvel Comics title regularly - THE BLACK PANTHER and purchase one or more DC Comics title.They have? The Teen Titans and Justice Society of America have no black characters. The Batman and Superman families don't include any black characters (at least not anymore). There aren't even any black leads in Countdown. The presence of black characters on the Justice League does not progressivism make. That's not to say that I agree those other books necessarily need black characters, but to claim that DC has a greater black ratio or holds those characters in higher regard is a falsity.

David could whup justin's a$$ not just one time, but 101 times. That still would not induce me to purchase what I see as a crappy book of a crappy mini-franchise of books.Then you'd be about the only one buying it and liking it.

Darwin has a chance of surviving because he is recognizable as a freakishly-mutated black/Puerto Rican character.Are you saying that if he actually looked black or Hispanic, he would be liked less?

Darwin will survive because many readers of the book don't even realize he is a black American/Puerto Rican character. Period.That definitely sounds like what your saying.


How convenient it must be for you to forget all of the "Is Storm beyond race?" comments and the "Bishop isn't really black. He's an Australian Aboriginine". comments that have abounded on this board.

Those characters only become "black" for you when you want to prove some kind of point. Otherwise, Ororo is a "patchwork quilt" of all humanity.The number of people on this forum who see Storm as "beyond race" is relatively small. When someone brings it up, the community at large is quick to dispute that claim.

And Bishop not "really being black" hasn't been the point of contention. It's that by him not being an African-American he apparently doesn't fit the desired mold. And I believe you've agreed with a statement along those lines in the past.

[CJ Lentze]

sinjection, I did read your earlier post, but Joe Acro already answered most of the points you brought up... better than I would have.

I apologise for the grand generalisation (generalisation[!]) I made in that post about 'modern societies'.

The 'white' or 'European' beauty standard is NOT universal. The popularity of Iman... Naomi Campbell... DESTROYS that standard.

It's sad that there are employers who would turn applicants because of their hair, but I believe that most employers aren't like that (of course, it all depends on situation, location, personality, etc.). African American women should protest against this whenever they encounter it. Not saying that that doesn't already happen, but you should never change yourself just to meet someone else's requirements.








One more thing which is not meant as a snark, but... there is no 'fence'. Over 60 people have posted in this thread and I feel that means there's over 60 opinions on this topic, the colouring of Darwin. No two-sided 'battle'. At times, very productive things have been said. It's a discussion about a comic book, which is supposed to be fun.

[Joe Acro]

One more thing which is not meant as a snark, but... there is no 'fence'. Over 60 people have posted in this thread and I feel that means there's over 60 opinions on this topic, the colouring of Darwin. No two-sided 'battle'. At times, very productive things have been said. It's a discussion about a comic book, which is supposed to be fun.That was a fault on my part. I know there isn't a fence, but I lacked a better term. I'm still thinking a little sluggishly. But I do think he has agreed with that sentiment in the past, which was really what I was trying to get at.

[sinjection]

I don't see a rise in racism.

I'm assuming you're white, Joe. If so, as a white male, you don't have to see anything in terms of race if you don't want to. Your demographic can choose to be "above" or "remain blissfully ignorant" of such concerns. But you can always benefit - directly or indirectly - from the racism you don't have to ever acknowledge. That's whiteboy priviledge.

And black characters being weaker than white characters simply isn't true, at least not all the time.

Oh sure. I'd put my money on Luke Cage if he were ever in a fight with Irving Forbush. But if Cage ever mixed it up with Spider-Man, it would be a different story. This isn't Larry Holmes vs Gerry Cooney. In that fight it was a matter of the best man winning the fight. In the case of Cage vs Spider-Man or The Black Panther vs Sabretooth, it's a matter of who writers and fans believe should win. Cage defeated Doom once. Many fans choose to believe that was a fluke. The Panther defeats Sabretooth, many fans claim that it was a "novelty issue" and that if such a confrontation took place elsewhere under different circumstances, then there should be no way T'Challa should ever prevail. Hudlin writes T'Chaka gaining a clear victory over Captain America and the caterwaul was immediate. As long as there exists no black male character who could ever best Thor, Hercules, Sentry, etc... then it's all good. Isn't it?


Don't presume to know what people at Marvel want or don't want. You don't work there. You don't know anyone who currently works there. You can't possibly know that writers don't want to have black characters in their books.

Don't presume to tell me what I should believe if it is my honest opinion. I don't work for a lot of police departments, fire departments, private companies and so forth around this nation, but I'm sure that there are many who would rather not have blacks among their employees. A poster to this board stated that as the predominant audience of comicbooks are white males, there really isn't that big of an interest in seeing black characters - specifically black male characters - represented in the genre. I've no doubt that there are many white writers and editors who work for Marvel who likely feel the same way. How many black members are in the Mighty Avengers? None. How many black X-Men are there? Precious few in a concept largely inspired by the Civil Rights Movement of black Americans.


I think it's a lot of implied insult, honestly.

Have you ever walked in a black man's daishiki? If not, then what you think about certain matters pertaining to blacks really doesn't carry a lot of weight with me.

And if they're really insulting you, complaining on a forum or not buying the titles in questions simply doesn't send the message you want. You need to tell them directly in a letter or a protest. It's that simple.

I don't buy their crappy books, Joe. That works fine for me.

They have?

Yes they have. DC Comics' black characters possess true power and influence in their publications. The emergence of the DC Comics' black superhero and superheroine makes Marvel's treatment of their black characters seem backward by comparison.

Are you saying that if he actually looked black or Hispanic, he would be liked less?

Darwin looks like a space alien. Because of this, it has been suggested that his character stands a better chance of "surviving". Synch was a black and beautiful male involved with a lovely woman of color. He's dead. You figure it out.


____sinjection, a.k.a. Synch X