X-Men from the Beginning [Archive] - Page 8 - Comic Book Resources Forums

david r

11-12-2008, 08:06 PM

http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/57294058176.4.GIF

Nightcrawler #4

"The Wizard of Oops"

November 11th was Dave Cockrum's birthday. To celebrate, I wrap up Dave's 1985 Nightcrawler mini-series. His love for Kurt Wagner comes through on every page, and every panel that 'crawler is in. Cockrum's love for his favorite X-character is unmistakable. I'll always cherish Dave Cockrum's work, each time I read his X-Men. He was one of the best.

The crazy hijinks on alien worlds come to a head. As the evil shark-man Shagreen holds Nightcrawler and his friends hostage. In the real 616 world, Kitty Pryde & Illyana Rasputin are still in the Danger Room, frantically trying to pull Nighty back home! Kurt has been deposited in a strange world he never made. The chief little "Bamf" and Lockheed the Dragon are scurrying around the castle, and locate a group of female Bamfs. They all look like feminine versions of Nightcrawler, and once they see the tall, studdly Kurt Wagner, all the female Bamfs fall in love with him. Unfortunately, they all look like Kurt's kid sister! :biggrin: The final battle is raged when Shagreen the Shark-man battles Windrider!! Windrider shows up, and looks like Ororo Munroe----only with a spiffy new costume. But Windrider controls the weather and she & Shagreen engage in a lightning fight!! While all the little Bamfs and heroes stand in awe.

We learn that the evil "Dark Bamf" is actually all the male Bamfs combined by magic. They are soon set free, and Dark Bamf disappears. More wild craziness happens, and Kitty Pryde herself gets pulled into the alternate world. She grabs her beloved Lockheed, and then gets pulled back to 616!! Kurt saves the day (naturally) by outsmarting Shagreen and destroying his magical staff. Shagreen's spells are broken, the heroes and imprisoned Bamfs are set free!! Nightcrawler has saved the day, again! Shagreen is chained, in defeat. But poor 'crawler cannot savor his victory, as he is once again teleported to another strange new world. The last few pages of Nightcrawler show the fuzzy elf hopping from one world to the next. At last, using a page from the movie The Wizard Of Oz, Kurt focuses on his homeworld of Earth----and presto----he materializes back there in the Danger Room. (I won't even try to explain this part.) Kitty is so overjoyed she practically strangles Nightcrawler!! Kurt is relieved to be back, and his wild adventure is over. The mini ends with Kurt, Kitty, Illyana and Lockheed walking down the hallway, going to get cookies & milk as Kurt tells them his tale.

My thoughts: Exactly HOW the Danger Room causes this ruckus is never adequately explained. I don't believe the Danger Room can act the way we see here. But who cares? This was "Robin Hood/Alice in Wonderland/Wizard of Oz/Kitty's Fairy Tale" all rolled into one! With the dashing Nightcrawler to take center-stage. There is little character development for Kurt, but just a fun story with a high "looney" factor. Windrider looks like an early Storm design by Dave Cockrum---come to life. I liked this LS, though probably it's too light-hearted and silly for most X-fans. It was still fun.

creaky

11-12-2008, 09:25 PM

In which issue did they teleport his clothes off in front of the princess?

Valjean999

11-13-2008, 01:41 PM

Thank goodness that series recap is over, now we can get back to the REAL title! I believe #204 is next? If I remember right, a Nightcrawler story in that one, as well...

Icegod

11-13-2008, 02:08 PM

I liked that nightcrawler mini, especially when I read it as a kid. It was a fun little break from the 616 Universe. I too am excited to get back to re-capping the main series though.

creaky

11-13-2008, 03:02 PM

Thank goodness that series recap is over, now we can get back to the REAL title! I believe #204 is next? If I remember right, a Nightcrawler story in that one, as well...

The timing to put this right before #204 is perfect, because not only is this series referenced there, but there's also a pretty sharp contrast between the two stories and in how they deal with a certain theme.

david r

11-13-2008, 08:29 PM

In which issue did they teleport his clothes off in front of the princess?

It happens in #2, near the end. Kitty and Illyana try to bring him back to our universe, but they only bring back his clothes. Which leaves blushing Kurt naked. (The princess likes what she sees!) :biggrin:

I placed the Nightcrawler mini here, because I thought this is where it went, chronologically. I am glad I read it; I had wanted to do for a long time. I didn't expect it to be so G-rated but it was still an amusing, escapist entertainment. I will always love Nightcrawler.

Cub

11-13-2008, 10:12 PM

Oh, I loooove uncanny #204! Please, david, I've been eagerly anticipating the next year's worth of stories for evah evah!!!!

CallMeGeoff

11-14-2008, 10:43 AM

limerick

11-14-2008, 11:11 AM

Hello all! This thread is amazing. I've been reading it from the beginning at work for the last couple of weeks (please don't tell my boss), and I've finally caught up! I've never ever posted on a message board before, but you folks inspired me. I'm bummed I missed out on the first 200 issues, but I'll try to keep up for the next 300+.
Welcome to the world of the X-men,Geoff!(As told by David R.,of course!)

You're the first FIRST post I've seen if you know what I mean.

Nevets F

11-14-2008, 11:14 AM

Hello all! This thread is amazing. I've been reading it from the beginning at work for the last couple of weeks (please don't tell my boss), and I've finally caught up! I've never ever posted on a message board before, but you folks inspired me. I'm bummed I missed out on the first 200 issues, but I'll try to keep up for the next 300+.

Welcome! I think this thread is amazing, as are the other "From the Beginning" threads David has started (Hidden Years, New Mutants, Alpha Flight, and X-Factor...soon to be Excalibur). I think you are proof that they are great, they brought you here!

I do all of my posting from work also. :D Shhhh.

limerick

11-14-2008, 11:18 AM

CallMeGeoff

11-14-2008, 11:20 AM

Welcome to the world of the X-men,Geoff!(As told by David R.,of course!)

You're the first FIRST post I've seen if you know what I mean.

Thanks! Yeah, I'm the poster child for noob status. But you gotta start somewhere! :smile:

CallMeGeoff

11-14-2008, 11:26 AM

Welcome! I think this thread is amazing, as are the other "From the Beginning" threads David has started (Hidden Years, New Mutants, Alpha Flight, and X-Factor...soon to be Excalibur). I think you are proof that they are great, they brought you here!

I do all of my posting from work also. :D Shhhh.

Thank you, thank you!

I think I can only keep up with one "From the Beginning" thread at a time, unfortunately. But I will definitely check in with them from time to time.

Nevets F

11-14-2008, 11:27 AM

Steven,I missed The Hidden Years thread. Must look it up straight away.Thanks for the tip

I actually did too, but I read them later. Partly the reason I mentioned them in this thread was to make sure everyone caught them. OMG, now I worry he didn't do them and I am imagining things!

Nevets F

11-14-2008, 11:29 AM

Thank you, thank you!

I think I can only keep up with one "From the Beginning" thread at a time, unfortunately. But I will definitely check in with them from time to time.

Luckily, if you do decide to check in on the others, they are only a few issues into each series (30's for two, and teens for the other).

How did you happen across this thread anyway? I am sure David will be thrilled to see a new poster join because of it. :D

Imraith Nimphais

11-14-2008, 11:51 AM

Welcome! I think this thread is amazing, as are the other "From the Beginning" threads David has started (Hidden Years, New Mutants, Alpha Flight, and X-Factor...soon to be Excalibur). I think you are proof that they are great, they brought you here!

I do all of my posting from work also. :D Shhhh.

Me too...:biggrin:
Welcome G....David's threads are delightfully fun and addictive as I am sure you've come to realise...
...as fer my love of all things fuzzy and elven and blue...I demand a trade of the Nightcrawler LS...right this instant!...the Godd has spoken...it shall come to pass...:evilsmile:

CallMeGeoff

11-14-2008, 11:59 AM

Luckily, if you do decide to check in on the others, they are only a few issues into each series (30's for two, and teens for the other).

How did you happen across this thread anyway? I am sure David will be thrilled to see a new poster join because of it. :D

I try to waste as much time at work as possible, so I'm always checking out the various threads here on CBR (as a silent observer until now). I just sort of happened across this one a few weeks ago and got hooked on it.

A few years ago, I did something similar where I read everything in between Uncanny 153 and 350, including all the Adjectiveless stuff (up through about 70, I think). It was a ridiculously good time, but it was pretty much just me and my comics. The idea of doing it from the VERY beginning as a sort of book club with other people discussing all the awesome in every issue was just too cool for me to pass up.

creaky

11-14-2008, 01:43 PM

It happens in #2, near the end. Kitty and Illyana try to bring him back to our universe, but they only bring back his clothes. Which leaves blushing Kurt naked. (The princess likes what she sees!) :biggrin:

"How did you do that? ...and could you do it again?" :biggrin:

Nevets F

11-14-2008, 07:16 PM

I try to waste as much time at work as possible, so I'm always checking out the various threads here on CBR (as a silent observer until now). I just sort of happened across this one a few weeks ago and got hooked on it.

A few years ago, I did something similar where I read everything in between Uncanny 153 and 350, including all the Adjectiveless stuff (up through about 70, I think). It was a ridiculously good time, but it was pretty much just me and my comics. The idea of doing it from the VERY beginning as a sort of book club with other people discussing all the awesome in every issue was just too cool for me to pass up.

That's great...I do the same thing, I lurk and post on CBR all day while working, lol. I hope you decide to post in this thread and contribute now that you have started. :)

I have read through massive runs before like you did, but I think this is so fun...and now that you mention it, it is kind of a book club type thing, lol. David's Book Club is better than Oprah's.

limerick

11-15-2008, 01:54 AM

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/57294058176.4.GIF

Nightcrawler #4

"The Wizard of Oops"

November 11th was Dave Cockrum's birthday. To celebrate, I wrap up Dave's 1985 Nightcrawler mini-series. His love for Kurt Wagner comes through on every page, and every panel that 'crawler is in. Cockrum's love for his favorite X-character is unmistakable. I'll always cherish Dave Cockrum's work, each time I read his X-Men. He was one of the best.

The crazy hijinks on alien worlds come to a head. As the evil shark-man Shagreen holds Nightcrawler and his friends hostage. In the real 616 world, Kitty Pryde & Illyana Rasputin are still in the Danger Room, frantically trying to pull Nighty back home! Kurt has been deposited in a strange world he never made. The chief little "Bamf" and Lockheed the Dragon are scurrying around the castle, and locate a group of female Bamfs. They all look like feminine versions of Nightcrawler, and once they see the tall, studdly Kurt Wagner, all the female Bamfs fall in love with him. Unfortunately, they all look like Kurt's kid sister! :biggrin: The final battle is raged when Shagreen the Shark-man battles Windrider!! Windrider shows up, and looks like Ororo Munroe----only with a spiffy new costume. But Windrider controls the weather and she & Shagreen engage in a lightning fight!! While all the little Bamfs and heroes stand in awe.

We learn that the evil "Dark Bamf" is actually all the male Bamfs combined by magic. They are soon set free, and Dark Bamf disappears. More wild craziness happens, and Kitty Pryde herself gets pulled into the alternate world. She grabs her beloved Lockheed, and then gets pulled back to 616!! Kurt saves the day (naturally) by outsmarting Shagreen and destroying his magical staff. Shagreen's spells are broken, the heroes and imprisoned Bamfs are set free!! Nightcrawler has saved the day, again! Shagreen is chained, in defeat. But poor 'crawler cannot savor his victory, as he is once again teleported to another strange new world. The last few pages of Nightcrawler show the fuzzy elf hopping from one world to the next. At last, using a page from the movie The Wizard Of Oz, Kurt focuses on his homeworld of Earth----and presto----he materializes back there in the Danger Room. (I won't even try to explain this part.) Kitty is so overjoyed she practically strangles Nightcrawler!! Kurt is relieved to be back, and his wild adventure is over. The mini ends with Kurt, Kitty, Illyana and Lockheed walking down the hallway, going to get cookies & milk as Kurt tells them his tale.

My thoughts: Exactly HOW the Danger Room causes this ruckus is never adequately explained. I don't believe the Danger Room can act the way we see here. But who cares? This was "Robin Hood/Alice in Wonderland/Wizard of Oz/Kitty's Fairy Tale" all rolled into one! With the dashing Nightcrawler to take center-stage. There is little character development for Kurt, but just a fun story with a high "looney" factor. Windrider looks like an early Storm design by Dave Cockrum---come to life. I liked this LS, though probably it's too light-hearted and silly for most X-fans. It was still fun.
As discussed previously to some extent this mini seems set in a much earlier era for the X-men.I'd be interested to know when it was written originally written.

david r

11-15-2008, 08:07 AM

CallMeGeoff, welcome! :smile: Coolness! This thread got you to post! The more the merrier, and I hope you keep posting. As many posters giving their thoughts on these classic stories is *WHY* I began this thread. Unfortunately, I cannot visit this site from my work, because they monitor us. :evilangry: Plus, everybody in my group can see my computer; and they'd be like..."what is David doing over there? Do I see Wolverine?" LOL! But I'm well aware of the art of "work avoidance"!

You read the whole thread! I probably need to do it too, to refreshen myself.

Steven, You're not mistaken. I did read and review X-Men: The Hidden Years. Earlier this year. The thread is around here somewhere.

Imraith Nimphais, I don't think Nightcrawler's limited series has gotten reprinted. (I could be wrong, though.) It should be, at least for Marvel's All-Ages line.

Limerick, I don't know when Dave Cockrum wrote the Nightcrawler mini. Cockrum was notoriously slow, so I bet he started it around 1982 or 83. Which gave him enough time to write & draw for a 1985 publication. (Kitty and Illyana's looks and appearances definitely date the book.)

CallMeGeoff

11-15-2008, 08:21 AM

That's great...I do the same thing, I lurk and post on CBR all day while working, lol. I hope you decide to post in this thread and contribute now that you have started. :)

I have read through massive runs before like you did, but I think this is so fun...and now that you mention it, it is kind of a book club type thing, lol. David's Book Club is better than Oprah's.

I will definitely try to post as often as I can. And I think Oprah should put "The Dark Phoenix Saga" in her book club. :biggrin:

CallMeGeoff, welcome! :smile: Coolness! This thread got you to post! The more the merrier, and I hope you keep posting. As many posters giving their thoughts on these classic stories is *WHY* I began this thread. Unfortunately, I cannot visit this site from my work, because they monitor us. :evilangry: Plus, everybody in my group can see my computer; and they'd be like..."what is David doing over there? Do I see Wolverine?" LOL! But I'm well aware of the art of "work avoidance"!

You read the whole thread! I probably need to do it too, to refreshen myself.

Thanks! Great job with the thread! I particularly enjoy all the promotional art and behind-the-scenes stuff you post. Keep it up!

Cub

11-16-2008, 03:28 AM

You read the whole thread! I probably need to do it too, to refreshen myself.

David, i think you have enough on your plate already without adding a 100+ page thread.

david r

11-16-2008, 05:25 PM

http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/97792366288.204.GIF

Uncanny X-Men #204

"What Happened to Nightcrawler?"

LIGHTS! CAMERA! MURDER! Kurt Wagner is back in the regular title, and Nightcrawler gets to shine in a solo story! Plus, the cover resembles one of Kurt's Errol Flynn posters in his room! Only with Nighty in the debonair hero role. You go, 'crawler!

The issue begins in New York City, with Kurt Wagner crouching on the side of a building, in the pouring rain. Nightcrawler is at his girlfriend Amanda Sefton's apartment, but Kurt wants to be alone. He is still brooding over the implications of the Beyonder, and whether the existence of the One from Beyond means God exists at all. Kurt's core religious and spiritual beliefs have been rocked. And nothing seems to be bringing him out of his funk. Amanda spots him sitting in the rain, and he bamfs into the apartment. Kurt says he finds himself thinking more and more of his pan-dimensional adventure, with fantastic worlds , damsels in distress and vile villains. Life was simple, because Kurt was the adventurer-hero. Now, with the X-Men, it seems their world has become grim and dark. Confusing with much anti-mutant hatred and threats unimaginable. Kurt says one to many things, and hurts Amanda's feelings. She storms out on him, off to her job as an airline stewardess. Nightcrawler feels guilty that he wasn't more sensitive to Amanda, and not just his own feelings.

Soon enough, Nightcrawler becomes embroiled in another Murderworld adventure, featuring your favorite crazed gamesman, Arcade! And his ice-cold assistant, the curious Miss. Locke! A red-headed female jogger is kidnapped along a Manhattan street, for seemingly no reason, and Kurt teleports into Murderworld to save this complete stranger. Familiar Murderworld sites like the giant pinball game are revisited, as the young red-head runs from one Murderworld "attraction of death" to the next. The poor girl is baffled as to where, and why, she has been targeted for death. Kurt saves her from a giant shark, which tries to eat her. (Presumably a robot shark.)This is followed by a race-car drive in a desert, chased by "Mad Max" type baddies, and "Auntie Arcade". All of it within the oddball surroundings of Arcade's robotics. Kurt gets to exhibit some of his beloved swashbuckling athletics, climbing aboard a vintage World War 1 aeroplane, to save the red-haired human.

Ultimately, Kurt sneaks to another part of Murderworld, and finds robotic versions of his partners, the uncanny X-Men. He turns them on and sends them against Arcade and Miss. Locke. Kurt escapes, while Arcade fights the X-Men, believing they are the real deal. Once Arcade realizes he's been duped, he laughs and respects Nightcrawler for beating him at his own game. Kurt & the red-haired stranger make it to her west-side Manhattan apartment, where the woman remarks Kurt is just like Arcade. Hooked on the excitement. They enter her apartment to find two government men waiting, both bow their heads. They are glad she is alive and unharmed, and inform them the red-haired stranger is her royal and serene majesty, Judith Rassendyll, last of the Elfburgs--Queen of Ruritania!

My thoughts: Nightcrawler gets another moment in the spotlight. I wasn't expecting another Arcade battle so soon after UXM #197, and my main quibble with this issue was the main story doesn't advance Kurt Wagner's character arc at all. The reader learns how distressed Kurt is over his religious beliefs shattered by the Beyonder at the issue's start, but then the core action doesn't deal with it at all. I wanted some more furthering of Kurt's troubles, but #204 did not supply that. I was in the dark as to who this red-haired female stranger was, and wondered if I missed something! Who is Judith Rassendyll! Who are the Elfburgs? Where is Ruritania I was baffled by the ending, and hope Judith's backstory gets told, because I don't know her at all.

Joe Acro

11-16-2008, 05:56 PM

Having read the Nightcrawler mini recently (largely for a dose of Bamf), I must say it was a lot of fun with unexpected twists and hilarity.

I even enjoyed the fact that the number of Bamfs in the lower left-hand corner of each cover is the same as the number of the issue.

As for Nightcrawler's return to the main title, I like his romp through Murderworld (as Murderworld romps tend to be fun), especially with the various settings offered. I just hope this isn't the last we see of Amanda.

worstblogever

11-16-2008, 09:31 PM

Arcade still is a blast. Conceivably, nothing is better for showcasing an artist's talents than a bizarre walk through the carnival-like Murderworld. I dig.

(I also wish someone would let Bachalo write a Murderworld adventure, but that's another story)

Nightcrawler gets the spotlight, and has a run in with an honest to goodness princess? Is he going to stop shtupping his adopted sister and get a faerie-tale ending?

Yeah, right. It's the X-Men. Angst lies ahead, Kurt.

Cub

11-16-2008, 09:33 PM

CallMeGeoff

11-16-2008, 10:17 PM

I must admit I do love a good Murderworld story. And while this issue's plot may not be the best, I like that Nightcrawler gets a balls-to-the-wall adventure to help clear his mind a little.

creaky

11-16-2008, 10:21 PM

I read this issue completely differently and I would like to post a long analysis of it right NOW... but I can't, because my hubby needs the computer! Argh!

Will return.

creaky

11-16-2008, 11:57 PM

(My husband ROCKS.)

Anyway, the big problem with this issue is that the story doesn't actually end until a couple issues later - with two scenes crammed in among other scenes.

But this is a really important part of Kurt's character arc.
Claremont has been dismantling him pretty brutally so far (and it will get worse) - taking away his faith in himself by having him fail leadership, his faith in God by having him meet the Beyonder (and then be the only one left behind by him. Ouch) and now, in this issue, he loses Amanda. And finds, he thinks, something to cling to that will make him whole again. Why do you think Claremont had Judith Rassendyll utter lines like these along the way:
"Listen to yourself, Nightcrawler - you're just like him! If creeps like Arcade didn't exist, you'd have to invent him just to give your life purpose. Is that true, is that all you are?"

(the following ones are from Uncanny #206, the end scene) :
"Indiana Wagner. Must you always play a part, Kurt?"
and
"This isn't a game, Nightcrawler, no matter how hard you try to make it so. I'm the one who could be murdered at any moment, yet you're the one I feel sorry for."

She's the voice of reason here. Pretty bluntly, too. I think Claremont laid it on a little thick - she's just met him and she's already psycho-analysing him??
Even though she's mostly saying this because she's just had the fright of her life, it's true that Kurt's desire for adventure is at this point turning into unhealthy escapism. He doesn't confront his real problems, he just dives straight into a swashbuckling adventure and considers everything alright.

We meet up with Amanda in #206 (hiding this for those who don't want to be spoiled) and find out that a week after the break-up, he hasn't returned her calls. She thinks to herself: "He wonders who he truly is and where he comes from and resents me because he thinks I know more than I do and won't tell". I was kind of taken aback by this, because there had been no hints at Kurt being this suspicious of Amanda before. She could just be paranoid, I guess, but I think we're supposed to take it as an accurate assumption. The one person in the world who knows Kurt best is Amanda. Granted, she did hook up with him while disguised as someone else, so that could be a seed for mistrust. But this really is the first time we ever hear about any problems between the two.

This issue really doesn't read very well at first, but if you know Kurt's arc up until and including Excalibur and then re-read it, I think its purpose becomes more obvious.

takatomon

11-17-2008, 07:03 AM

Yeah I finally caught up now I can join the fun :biggrin:

Nevets F

11-17-2008, 08:33 AM

Welcome Takatoman! Join in!

I never care much for this issue personally. It felt so...odd. So much was going on and then this issue popped up. Always felt a bit filler-ish to me.

david r

11-17-2008, 09:03 AM

Cub, It's not so much I did not like the issue, but felt it didn't further Kurt Wagner's story in any significant way. The beginning is filled with Nightcrawler angst, but it's not followed up on. For instance, *why* did the Beyonder exclude Kurt from #203? This Arcade romp doesn't fill us in on anything! Thank you for explaining Judith Rassendyll a bit further. This upsets me even more, as the "Big Reveal" at the finale leads nowhere. The way #204 ends, it sounds like Judith will have some role, but this is not so? It feels a little like a cheat.

As for MurderWorld, I agree with your arguments on the improbability of the place. But these are comic books.....so suspension of disbelief is a given. If the Joker can do it, why not Arcade?? #204 tells us the police once searched the amusement park grounds, and NEVER FOUND Murderworld. Which defies reality, even for a comic. I like Arcade and Miss Locke well enough, but this coming so soon after their last caper (#197) made this feel anticlimactic.

Creaky, What did your husband say when you pushed him off the computer, so you could post online about X-Men?? (I hope he wasn't doing important financial work!) LOL! Anyway, after reading your post, I think I will reserve judgement on this issue. As you noted, future events put this issue into perspective, and I've noticed this before by Chris Claremont, so I will wait to see how Kurt's life pans out. I agree with you 100% about Marvel tearing down Nighty's life. I had never thought of that until you posted it. He was pushed into leadership he wasn't ready for. He's losing his spiritual beliefs, and now he may have lost his beloved Amanda. It pains me to see the lovable Nightcrawler go through so much pain and inner torment, but when you're an X-Man, you gotta expect it.

Creaky, I think Kurt is diving into an escapist/adventure world to escape these darker days. Kurt even says it in his conversation with Amanda Sefton. Kurt would rather be the dashing adventure hero, than an X-Man anymore. The latter just isn't fun to him, anymore. I've noticed Rogue also is escaping the real world, by becoming an "action junkie", in this era. I guess life really is that rough for our heroes.

Takatoman, welcome aboard. Did you read the whole thread? I hope you post often.
Steven, The issue felt a little filler, but after reading Cub and Creaky's posts, I feel now it isn't. In fact, it's interesting how FEW filler issues this book has.

takatomon

11-17-2008, 09:56 AM

Takatoman, welcome aboard. Did you read the whole thread? I hope you post often.

Thanks. Yeah I've read the whole thread and have caught up on my essentials. I actually just bought volume 8 so i'll be able to keep up. You've been doing a great job on these from the begining threads man!!

CJ Lentze

11-18-2008, 06:12 AM

I rather like this issue, david, and i'm surprised you didn't. First of all, I welcome any issue that features Kurt, because he really gets the short end of the stick as far as panel time, what with camera hogs like logan, kitty, and ororo on the team. And I always enjoy a trip to Murderworld, even if i find the basic premise a bit outlandish. I mean, you're telling me that not only is Arcade clever enough to come up with these wildly elaborate "attractions", but has the brains to plot out an entire amusement park, and the engineering skills required to construct it with only chambers and miss locke as his assistants. Not to mention the financial resources apparently at his disposal. And no one is ever the wiser until he decides to kidnap the x-men, or spiderman. Right. And don't even get me started on his x-robots which are able to duplicate such abilities as phasing through solid matter. That being said, it's always a good time (can't wait for Excalibur #4!). Judith Rassendyll is totally just a random character, who gets a cameo in an excalibur special and is never heard from again. But I think it fits for this story. It shows that Kurt is a true hero. He's not just a superhero when the latest supervillain threatens to take over the world, or when someone close to him is in trouble. He saved this woman simply because she was a woman who needed saving (well, and because he's a bit of an adventure junkie). Yes, perhaps the issue didn't directly resolve his issues with his faith. But I really don't think something like that can be resolved in just one issue. It did, however, deal with his other struggles. For awhile, Kurt has been questioning his value to the team, and the value of the team at all, now that they are aware of rachel's future/past. Helping Ms. Rassendyll helped Kurt remember that he does make a difference, that the world is, maybe just slightly, a better place because he's chosen the side of good. And while he still may question his place in the cosmos, and all of those heavy, philosophical issues, it doesn't negate the importance of what he fights for here and now.

(My husband ROCKS.)

Anyway, the big problem with this issue is that the story doesn't actually end until a couple issues later - with two scenes crammed in among other scenes.

But this is a really important part of Kurt's character arc.
Claremont has been dismantling him pretty brutally so far (and it will get worse) - taking away his faith in himself by having him fail leadership, his faith in God by having him meet the Beyonder (and then be the only one left behind by him. Ouch) and now, in this issue, he loses Amanda. And finds, he thinks, something to cling to that will make him whole again. Why do you think Claremont had Judith Rassendyll utter lines like these along the way:
"Listen to yourself, Nightcrawler - you're just like him! If creeps like Arcade didn't exist, you'd have to invent him just to give your life purpose. Is that true, is that all you are?"

(the following ones are from Uncanny #206, the end scene) :
"Indiana Wagner. Must you always play a part, Kurt?"
and
"This isn't a game, Nightcrawler, no matter how hard you try to make it so. I'm the one who could be murdered at any moment, yet you're the one I feel sorry for."

She's the voice of reason here. Pretty bluntly, too. I think Claremont laid it on a little thick - she's just met him and she's already psycho-analysing him??
Even though she's mostly saying this because she's just had the fright of her life, it's true that Kurt's desire for adventure is at this point turning into unhealthy escapism. He doesn't confront his real problems, he just dives straight into a swashbuckling adventure and considers everything alright.

We meet up with Amanda in #206 (hiding this for those who don't want to be spoiled) and find out that a week after the break-up, he hasn't returned her calls. She thinks to herself: "He wonders who he truly is and where he comes from and resents me because he thinks I know more than I do and won't tell". I was kind of taken aback by this, because there had been no hints at Kurt being this suspicious of Amanda before. She could just be paranoid, I guess, but I think we're supposed to take it as an accurate assumption. The one person in the world who knows Kurt best is Amanda. Granted, she did hook up with him while disguised as someone else, so that could be a seed for mistrust. But this really is the first time we ever hear about any problems between the two.

This issue really doesn't read very well at first, but if you know Kurt's arc up until and including Excalibur and then re-read it, I think its purpose becomes more obvious.Cub, creaky, excellent analyses of this issue and of Mr. Wagner himself. I, too, think this is an important chapter in the development of Nightcrawler.

The issue revolves around the concepts of trust and faith, even if that theme is sprinkled over the Murderworld action.
His insinuating that Amanda might have used magic potions on him to make him love her, may just be the most cruel thing Kurt has ever said or done- regardless of his insecurities at that time; but he realises this the moment Amanda walks out the door.
I agree with Cub that Kurt needed this adventure, saving someone in need, to remind him of why he is doing the superhero thing, and that that's what he's good at.

MartinRedmond

11-18-2008, 08:20 AM

I'm late, but Rachel's 1st fight against the Beyonder is probably my favorite fight of all time. I always thought it was pretty cool. And like wow, it's resolved in only one issue. Imagine that.

creaky

11-18-2008, 11:20 AM

For instance, *why* did the Beyonder exclude Kurt from #203? This Arcade romp doesn't fill us in on anything! Thank you for explaining Judith Rassendyll a bit further. This upsets me even more, as the "Big Reveal" at the finale leads nowhere. The way #204 ends, it sounds like Judith will have some role, but this is not so? It feels a little like a cheat.

There wasn't much room for Kurt's arc, what with Wolverine, Storm and Kitty taking up so much panel time.
I find myself wishing that the other X-men had intervened, somehow, but they were all busy elsewhere. I'm not even sure they were aware what was going on. It's a bit sad that someone as friendly and helpful as Kurt had absolutely no one there when he needed them the most. (Not talking about Amanda here, mind you, that one was his own fault entirely.)

Creaky, What did your husband say when you pushed him off the computer, so you could post online about X-Men?? (I hope he wasn't doing important financial work!) LOL!

As soon as I remove his gag, I'll let you know.

Anyway, after reading your post, I think I will reserve judgement on this issue. As you noted, future events put this issue into perspective, and I've noticed this before by Chris Claremont, so I will wait to see how Kurt's life pans out. I agree with you 100% about Marvel tearing down Nighty's life. I had never thought of that until you posted it. He was pushed into leadership he wasn't ready for. He's losing his spiritual beliefs, and now he may have lost his beloved Amanda. It pains me to see the lovable Nightcrawler go through so much pain and inner torment, but when you're an X-Man, you gotta expect it.

I'm not sure if I'd connect it to being an X-man as much as, well, being human and growing up.

His insinuating that Amanda might have used magic potions on him to make him love her, may just be the most cruel thing Kurt has ever said or done- regardless of his insecurities at that time; but he realises this the moment Amanda walks out the door.

Yes! Amanda was really treated like crap here and she was right to leave his sorry tail. It's such a strange scene, too - how it starts off with Kurt being polite and considerate enough to not want to drip water on her floor, only to hurt her that brutally not long after. It's also in line with his teasing of Kitty Pryde after she tore down the mansion while fighting the N'Garai, where he wonders if he was subconsciously trying to hurt her. I kind of like the idea of Kurt having this malicious, hurtful side peeking through when he lets his guard down. I also like the idea of him having trust- and intimacy issues - it makes a certain kind of sense for someone in his position.

CallMeGeoff

11-18-2008, 01:23 PM

Yes! Amanda was really treated like crap here and she was right to leave his sorry tail. It's such a strange scene, too - how it starts off with Kurt being polite and considerate enough to not want to drip water on her floor, only to hurt her that brutally not long after. It's also in line with his teasing of Kitty Pryde after she tore down the mansion while fighting the N'Garai, where he wonders if he was subconsciously trying to hurt her. I kind of like the idea of Kurt having this malicious, hurtful side peeking through when he lets his guard down. I also like the idea of him having trust- and intimacy issues - it makes a certain kind of sense for someone in his position.

I thought of that Kitty scene too when I read this issue. Kurt always seems to know when he's being a jerk, which I guess is why he so rarely acts like one.

For me, this issue is important because it lets us in on what makes Nightcrawler tick. For so long, he had been portrayed as just the swashbuckler happy-go-lucky type, which worked really well in contrast with his demonic appearance for a while. But now we get to see some of his inner demons too, ironically making him a more human character to me.

david r

11-18-2008, 08:14 PM

http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/pages/97792366288.204.P1.GIF

http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/pages/97792366288.204.P2.GIF

http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/pages/97792366288.204.P3.GIF

creaky

11-19-2008, 02:11 AM

Such a drama queen. Even when he's depressed, he channels old movies.<3

david r

11-19-2008, 07:40 PM

http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/97792366288.205.GIF

Uncanny X-Men #205

"Wounded Wolf"

1st appearance: The Body Shop

A bona-fide classic. We're a long way from the Vanisher & the Stranger days. #205 is a no-holds-barred, bloody and suspenseful fight between Wolverine and his new opponent, Oyama Yuriko, or LADY DEATHSTRIKE!! She debuted in Alpha Flight #33-34, (thanks Limerick! ) but Oyama gets enhanced here. She will never be the same again. Awesome artwork by Barry Windsor-Smith, this finishes up the Claremont/Windsor-Smith trilogy of stories.

It begins in The Body Shop---"We'll Make a New You!" Spiral watches as a bizarre and gruesome "Biomed transmutation" has occured. Gorgeously drawn by Windsor-Smith, Oyama Yuriko emerges from a cocoon, changed into half-machine, half-human. Wires and tubes stick out all over her form, and her fingers can grow to unnaturally long lengths. The fingers appear to be weapons, like Wolverine's claws. 3 men stand and watch the procedure. They are cyborgs, and these 3 men have a strong hatred for Wolverine. They were once Hellfire Club goons, and ripped to shreds by Logan in Uncanny X-Men #133. They also appeared as cyborgs again in the New Mutants Special Edition. The 3 are still cyborgs, and dressed in military-type clothing. Oyama has sold her soul to the Devil (or Mojo?? ) to make her battle-ready against her hated foe...Logan-sama. Her origins told in Alpha Flight #33-34 & *why* she despises Logan. This whole section is beautifull depicted in words & art by Claremont/Windsor-Smith. (They should have won awards!)

The guts of #205 take place in a snowstorm, in Manhattan's Lower East Side. Katie Power, a member of the group Power Pack, is out for a choir singing during Christmas time. Unfortunately, for her and her choir group, they become embroiled amidst a tooth-and-nail struggle between Wolverine and the 4 cyborgs (Deathstrike and 3 cyborg men.) Logan is bloodied and bruised, and has already been pushed into an animalistic rage when Katie Power gets pulled into the action. It takes some doing, but Katie reaches through the animal of Logan and a semblance of his human side recognizes her. Logan cannot even talk at first, simply snarls and growls. As his cyborg enemies close in, through the blinding snowstorm in dark night, Wolverine and Katie rush to a construction site. The cyborgs shoot deadly gunfire, but the 2 heroes dodge the blasts. Katie talks to Logan and he begins to whisper, a tiny whisper of his humanity returning to him. He tells her to close her eyes and stay hidden, while he takes care of their enemies.

What comes next is another tour-de-force display of Wolverine's awesome killing skills. Much like his Hellfire Club solo UXM #133 fight, Logan takes down each of the male cyborgs. Their weapons useless against Wolverine's ferocity. The last standing opponent is Lady Deathstrike herself. She desires revenge for her slain father, and the return of what belongs to her---his adamantium metal. Logan's life will not stop her from her quest. Deathstrike's fingers grow tall, into grotesque "weapons" and the slash and cut fight begins! Logan and Deathstrike ducking, swinging, slashing and cutting each other in a bloody free-for-all; Logan cutting loose as he so rarely can do. In the end, Wolverine's wild side overwhelms Deathstrike, and she drops to the red snow and Wolverine dices and slices her! To Logan's horror, he realizes she is half-machine! Logan is disgusted! What has Oyama done to herself?? To seek revenge, Deathstrike has gambled her humanity away! Logan cannot believe it, and goes to leave her. The broken Deathstrike lays in the snow, and asks for a clean, swift death. Honor demands a death, in their feud. Honor demands a kill. Logan turns, sheathes his claws, and says "Earn it." He returns to Katie Power, who removes her hands from her eyes. And they walk away, holding hands together. The victors.

My thoughts: This issue originally was intended to be Lifedeath 3, the culmination of a trilogy of stories focusing on Storm. But Marvel reportedly rejected it, as it revolved around suicide, and Marvel felt squeamish over the subject matter. Instead, we get this story. If the rejection of Lifedeath 3 phased Chris Claremont & Barry Windsor-Smith, you certainly CANNOT TELL from #205. They come out swinging from Page One. Once you begin to read, you cannot take your eyes away from the nonstop action and fierce, intense battle which unfolds here. Windsor-Smith draws every character perfectly, from Logan's animal look, to Katie Power's innocent, childlike face to the bizarre, alien Body Shop which spawns the tragic "Lady Deathstrike". The story is suspense personified, and builds to it's intense confrontation between Wolverine and Deathstrike. Logan's triumph of spirit versus Deathstrike's descent into revenge-fueled madness. A gripping masterpiece that every X-fan should have in their collection.

CallMeGeoff

11-20-2008, 08:36 AM

Ridiculously good issue. The mediocrity of last issue is redeemed with this one. I never knew that about Lifedeath 3. That's interesting. I wonder how that story would have played out. Not that it really matters, though, because this issue is the bee's knees.

Does anybody know of anything Barry Windsor-Smith has done lately? Love his art.

Valjean999

11-20-2008, 08:56 AM

CallMeGeoff

11-20-2008, 09:20 AM

Although I also enjoyed this issue very much, I was not crazy about the appearance of Katie Power. It just seemed kind of random and out of place. It would have been fine if it had been the beginning of a special bond between them, as Logan has had with Kitty and will go on to have with Jubilee, but as far as I know, Logan and Katie never had any more contact after this issue (please correct me if I am wrong).

Its a small matter, though; overall, great issue.

They meet again, but you're right, their relationship was never anything like what Logan had with Kitty or Jubilee (or even Armor).

I haven't read this, though:

http://prettythings.pullbot.com/artworks/140951/WACK001_COV_medium.jpg

Joe Acro

11-20-2008, 09:26 AM

takatomon

11-20-2008, 09:43 AM

This issue was kinda intense. I think the inclusion of Kate Powers was a good choice because it helped balance the violence and pain Wolverine was going through. At this point everyone is kinda used to Wolverine going berserker and it’s nice to see how scary he can be when he goes off the deep end. Also the fact he shields Kate from the whole truth of what he does reminds us that even if he is hard core and does stuff that isn't pretty, he's not proud of it all the time.

BTW reading this story in black and white really added to the atmosphere of the store. I don't think I'd enjoy it as much if it was in color. Anyone else think some stories would do better without the flashy colors that come with comics?

CallMeGeoff

11-20-2008, 10:14 AM

BTW reading this story in black and white really added to the atmosphere of the store. I don't think I'd enjoy it as much if it was in color. Anyone else think some stories would do better without the flashy colors that come with comics?

I agree. The "Batman Black & White" stuff that DC did was a pretty cool idea. Regarding this issue, I can certainly see how a violent fight in a snow storm would look good in black and white.

blehbeh

11-20-2008, 10:39 AM

Love this issue. It's interesting to be reminded of how front and center the Power Pack were in the MU of the mid-80's. We've had a big 90's resurgence and a big 70's resurgence lately...I'd love to see an ignored 80's character like Katie Power shoved into the spotlight again. The real Katie Power that is, not the all-ages out of continuity Katie (although I hear those specials are pretty fun).

Sandy Hausler

11-20-2008, 11:04 AM

Will you be reading all 2000 or so X-Title (and crossover) issues, or only the core titles (and which would those be, if just those)?

It's only 2000?

Sandy Hausler

Imraith Nimphais

11-20-2008, 11:33 AM

Yes, indeedy D...another Windsor-Smith classic!...(truth to tell, I am not, nor have I ever been a fan(atic) of the ol' canucklehead, but this story, being somewot similar to the "Weapon X" mini...also drawn by BWS...really drew me in and connected me to Logan...to LD and KP, as well)...beauty-full art! great character insight for all the players involved...it's a credit to the writer how well he is able to orchestrate the big-action arcs involving the entire team, then pulls back and focuses on these "one-shot" character-driven stories without ever..or very seldom...losing sight of the bigger picture...indeed, it seems that it's within these one-shot issues that the majority of character developement/insight takes place for our mutant heroes...having said all this...on comparing the two one-shots...I could not help but notice both stories are somewot similar...you have the single protagonist...Wolvie/Nightcrawler, the crazed/demented villain...Deathstrike/Arcade, the Damsel...Katie/Judith, with both (young) ladies playing an integral part in how our heroes suceed in overcoming their own personal "demons"...and just how w'kedly cool is that cover? BWS-ROCKS!!! 8-))

limerick

11-20-2008, 01:24 PM

With Lady Deathstrike not fully being explained this issue and Katie Power being included and the story pretty much starting amidst the aftermath of the initial conflict, I was hopelessly confused when I read this issue.

Sadly, that didn't really clear up by the end.

It didn't help matters that we just came off a Nightcrawler interlude.
I agree.I love this issue and the art by BWS is awesome.Wolverine is teetering on the edge and Katie Power just about pulls him back to humanity.Wolverine is vunerable but dangerous.As a stand alone issue it's great.

But as an issue in the ongoing X-men saga it was confusing to say the least.I only read Alpha flight 33 & 34 years later and they were really essential to the story.I don't think there's even an editors note referring to these issues like Marvel normally do.I was confused for years as to Lady Deathstrike's origin.I was convinced I had missed some special/annual revealing her origin.

I think this was the beginning of Claremont losing some cohesion with his plots.Gone are the tightlyplotted days(Byrne influenced?)of the late seventies.I'm not asying he still wasn't writing great stories but not all of them were entirely clear.The last few issues just seemed a mixed bag of group/individual stories.The same thing was happening in the NM.

david r

11-20-2008, 07:53 PM

A lot of fascinating thoughts. Uncanny X-Men #205 was a spectacular issue, no doubt. I can see the confusion reading this for the 1st time, though. Thanks to Limerick, I knew to read Alpha Flight #33-34 BEFORE this issue. This helped me greatly in meeting Oyama Yuriko (Lady Deathstrike) and learning her motivations. I would have been lost without it. (However, *how* she learns of Mojo and Spiral and the Body Shop is not explained. Exactly how did she make a deal to enhance herself??) :confused:

I think this was the first time Wolverine became so feral he couldn't speak coherently. He's been driven to berserker rages before, but never so out of it he grunted and growled like in #205. I think without Katie Powers, he might have lost it completely and become uncontrollable.

I also liked the moment where Lady Deathstrike is beaten down, and Logan stands above her ready for the killing strike. Deathstrike begs for a merciful kill, with her hand outstretched to him, but Logan turns and walks out. That outstretched hand was emotionally shattering.

I've always liked the cover, but how does it play into the issue that follows? Plus, the continuing subplot with mercenaries Reese, Macon and the other guy is intriguing.

Imraith Nimphais, interesting parallel between Nightcrawler's previous adventure and this more dark story with Wolverine. I had not noticed any similarities but you illuminated them quite well. :smile:

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/f/f4/Lady_Deathstrike_001.jpg

david r

11-21-2008, 07:42 PM

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/thumb/3/3a/Lady_Deathstrike_009.jpg/258px-Lady_Deathstrike_009.jpg

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/c/c1/Lady_Deathstrike_003.jpg

david r

11-22-2008, 08:14 PM

http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/97792366288.206.GIF

Uncanny X-Men #206

"Freedom is a Four Letter Word"

The X-Men are still in San Francisco, staying at Jessica Drew's home. They indeed did stay in the foggy city by the bay before, many moons ago and since UXM #202. Magneto, Wolverine and Nightcrawler are not among them. Freedom Force take it upon themselves to arrest the mutants. It's another battle issue!!

http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/pages/97792366288.206.P1.GIF

Storm doesn't take kindly to criminals, even in the hippie haven of Haight/Ashbury. As shown above in a lovingly drawn page by John Romita Jr, Storm does her best Punisher imitation. (Or is it Dirty Harry??) Taking down a group of hoodlums in a Frisco Chinatown back alley. Even without her weather powers, you don't mess around with the ebony Goddess. As the police arrive, Storm meets lieutenant Bree Morrel. The SF PD will take it from here. Storm returns to Jessica Drew's home, where the X-Men are temporarily residing. The team is Storm, Rogue, Colossus, Shadowcat and Phoenix--Rachel Summers. Some man named David Ishima is taking Kitty out to a Lila Cheney concert. (Lila is on a '86 World Tour!) Kitty is the definition of 1986 hip taste. With spiked hair shooting upward in all directions. And fishnets. Kitty & David head out for the concert, as the team receive a postcard from Madelyne Pryor. The postcard sends Rachel off, and she has a tantrum, sending dishes scattering all over the place!

Hours later, Kitty and David are on the way back from the show, in the fog-enshrouded night. They are suddenly whisked away by the street, which comes to alive and carries them away. The actual road is alive!! It throws them and many automobiles at Jessica Drew's house, and the other homes around it. Cars smash into the homes, causing much destruction. The X-Men are under attack! It is Freedom Force, a government sanction group. Their numbers are Pyro, Avalanche, the Blob, Spiral and new member, the new Spider-Woman! Mystique is not present,and has NOT sanctioned this assault. Freedom Force have taken it on themselves to attack the mutants, and they do a mighty good job of taking down the X-Men! Spiral seems to be leading FF, and she knocks out Phoenix almost immediately. Pyro uses his shocking fire-pyrotechnics to create a replica of the awesome Phoenix Bird signature!

The most memorable moment of the heated struggle is when Rogue tries to absorb Spiral's memories and powers. Instead, Spiral somehow possesses Rogue, and 6 arms push their way from Rogue's sides. Spiral has possessed Rogue, and in quick order, defeats Colossus and Shadowcat. The X-Men are defeated! However, the police arrive, lead by lieutenant Bree Morrel, and she threatens to arrest Freedom Force. They have no warrant to seize the X-Men, so therefore, they are acting outside the law. Freedom Force depart, but not before Rogue and Spiral return to their respective bodies and psyches. A feud between them is clearly formed, as the threaten one another. The issue ends with a red-haired woman rushed into a San Francisco hospital. She has multiple gunshot wounds, and looks strikingly like Madelyne Pryor. Uh-oh. Plus, Nightcrawler sees Judith Rassendyll off to her new destiny as Queen of a European nation. They flirt a bit and hug. As Kurt watches her airplane take off for Europe, Kurt thinks he's in his element fighting villains and saving damsels in distress. As he puts on his fedora hat, Kurt couldn't be happier.

My thoughts: A great battle issue. I was surprised to see Freedom Force defeat the X-Men! An unexpected development, showing weakness on Storm's teams part. Rachel Summers was the weakest link, and needs to deal with her father issues, before it continues to hurt her teammates. Rachel was portrayed very emotional and angst-filled in #206. Kitty Pryde is maturing before my eyes, and is definitely a full teenager here. (Even in 1980s hip clothes!) She sure has grown a lot since #129. The most twisted moment of the issue was when Spiral possessed Rogue. This was eerie and creepy, and makes me wonder what is Spiral made of exactly? I still don't understand why Spiral, who is a subject to Mojo, would spend her time fighting with a human-group like FF? I don't believe this part. Freedom Force themselves were more formidable than ever, even without Mystique. They used team tactics, and showed that their training is paying off. I also liked Pyro's utilization of his fire to create a "Phoenix" effect, and the "FF" on their uniforms. Reminds me of another New York group that sport "FF" on their costumes. Cute. PS, I like the issue's title too. If this is freedom......who needs it??

worstblogever

11-23-2008, 01:10 AM

Double post, sorry.

worstblogever

11-23-2008, 01:11 AM

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/97792366288.206.GIF

Uncanny X-Men #206

"Freedom is a Four Letter Word"

The X-Men are still in San Francisco, staying at Jessica Drew's home. They indeed did stay in the foggy city by the bay before, many moons ago and since UXM #202. Magneto, Wolverine and Nightcrawler are not among them. Freedom Force take it upon themselves to arrest the mutants. It's another battle issue!!

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/pages/97792366288.206.P1.GIF

Storm doesn't take kindly to criminals, even in the hippie haven of Haight/Ashbury. As shown above in a lovingly drawn page by John Romita Jr, Storm does her best Punisher imitation. (Or is it Dirty Harry??) Taking down a group of hoodlums in a Frisco Chinatown back alley. Even without her weather powers, you don't mess around with the ebony Goddess. As the police arrive, Storm meets lieutenant Bree Morrel. The SF PD will take it from here. Storm returns to Jessica Drew's home, where the X-Men are temporarily residing. The team is Storm, Rogue, Colossus, Shadowcat and Phoenix--Rachel Summers. Some man named David Ishima is taking Kitty out to a Lila Cheney concert. (Lila is on a '86 World Tour!) Kitty is the definition of 1986 hip taste. With spiked hair shooting upward in all directions. And fishnets. Kitty & David head out for the concert, as the team receive a postcard from Madelyne Pryor. The postcard sends Rachel off, and she has a tantrum, sending dishes scattering all over the place!

Hours later, Kitty and David are on the way back from the show, in the fog-enshrouded night. They are suddenly whisked away by the street, which comes to alive and carries them away. The actual road is alive!! It throws them and many automobiles at Jessica Drew's house, and the other homes around it. Cars smash into the homes, causing much destruction. The X-Men are under attack! It is Freedom Force, a government sanction group. Their numbers are Pyro, Avalanche, the Blob, Spiral and new member, the new Spider-Woman! Mystique is not present,and has NOT sanctioned this assault. Freedom Force have taken it on themselves to attack the mutants, and they do a mighty good job of taking down the X-Men! Spiral seems to be leading FF, and she knocks out Phoenix almost immediately. Pyro uses his shocking fire-pyrotechnics to create a replica of the awesome Phoenix Bird signature!

The most memorable moment of the heated struggle is when Rogue tries to absorb Spiral's memories and powers. Instead, Spiral somehow possesses Rogue, and 6 arms push their way from Rogue's sides. Spiral has possessed Rogue, and in quick order, defeats Colossus and Shadowcat. The X-Men are defeated! However, the police arrive, lead by lieutenant Bree Morrel, and she threatens to arrest Freedom Force. They have no warrant to seize the X-Men, so therefore, they are acting outside the law. Freedom Force depart, but not before Rogue and Spiral return to their respective bodies and psyches. A feud between them is clearly formed, as the threaten one another. The issue ends with a red-haired woman rushed into a San Francisco hospital. She has multiple gunshot wounds, and looks strikingly like Madelyne Pryor. Uh-oh. Plus, Nightcrawler sees Judith Rassendyll off to her new destiny as Queen of a European nation. They flirt a bit and hug. As Kurt watches her airplane take off for Europe, Kurt thinks he's in his element fighting villains and saving damsels in distress. As he puts on his fedora hat, Kurt couldn't be happier.

My thoughts: A great battle issue. I was surprised to see Freedom Force defeat the X-Men! An unexpected development, showing weakness on Storm's teams part. Rachel Summers was the weakest link, and needs to deal with her father issues, before it continues to hurt her teammates. Rachel was portrayed very emotional and angst-filled in #206. Kitty Pryde is maturing before my eyes, and is definitely a full teenager here. (Even in 1980s hip clothes!) She sure has grown a lot since #129. The most twisted moment of the issue was when Spiral possessed Rogue. This was eerie and creepy, and makes me wonder what is Spiral made of exactly? I still don't understand why Spiral, who is a subject to Mojo, would spend her time fighting with a human-group like FF? I don't believe this part. Freedom Force themselves were more formidable than ever, even without Mystique. They used team tactics, and showed that their training is paying off. I also liked Pyro's utilization of his fire to create a "Phoenix" effect, and the "FF" on their uniforms. Reminds me of another New York group that sport "FF" on their costumes. Cute. PS, I like the issue's title too. If this is freedom......who needs it??

I love, LOVE this issue. Mainly because I dig Freedom Force that much.

From Pyro trying to burn Storm alive, to the Blob getting tossed into San Francisco Bay by Rogue and Colossus, this is just a great fight. If only they had a warrant! Those wacky guys! :biggrin:

Just with the addition of Spiral, they become formidable enough to take down the X-Men. I don't know if it counts towards the XMftb thread, david, but if you get the chance, please include Avengers Annual #15, where Mystique and Freedom Force are given the chore by Henry Peter Gyrich to arrest the Avengers for treason... and they actually pull it off!

Anyway, Spiral's place on the team, for me, is one of two things. One: Either Claremont forgot her origin as a product of the Mojoverse (which I doubt) or, much more likely, he wanted the long-on-the-backburner plotline of the X-Men in the Mojoverse to start going forth. And what better way for Mojo to get ratings to cause superhuman fights the Spineless Ones could watch from their own dimension?

Really, all the pieces were there, almost like two teams, captained by champions of the Mojoverse. It may have been, in time, Longshot on the X-Men, Spiral on Freedom Force. Now we just need someone there to film it... Oh, how about Psylocke's bionic eyes? :redface: I really feel like there was more to the plotline, and somewhere, something didn't go off as it could have been. Spiral and Mojo are some of the weirdest characters to understand in the Marvel Universe. But that's kind of the point.

And the brief cameo at the end of the issue? Again, credit to CC, this is him laying seeds in place for happenings in X-Factor, and that confrontation involves a certain team of villains who'll be making some noise in about, oh, six issues. And both they, and the redhead, will make even more of a ruckus in another crossover...

Anodyne

11-23-2008, 09:51 AM

[I]Uncanny X-Men #206
... the team receive a postcard from Madelyne Pryor.
Trust me to zero in on the one detail I care about most. :rolleyes: The postcard invites the X-Men to visit the Summers family in Alaska; as far as I'm concerned, that refutes the claims of those who say Maddie wanted to cut Scott completely off from his old friends. She didn't want him to go adventuring with them, but they were welcome to come see him.

Madelyne was supportive when he went to Asgard with the X-Men to rescue the New Mutants. "I understand," she says in the Uncanny Annual #9; "Those kids are counting on you." Only after they leave does she get a premonition that she and Scott will "never be happy together again."

Would things have turned out differently if Scott had phoned his wife from Paris? I think his failure to call made her doubt his ability to hold both her and the X-Men in his heart.

CallMeGeoff

11-23-2008, 01:07 PM

This is a great issue with a really cool first page (thanks for posting that, David!). I always enjoy it when the X-Men shack up some place other than the mansion. Too bad they couldn't stay in San Francisco. I hope they get the chance to go back one day. :wink:

david r

11-23-2008, 01:16 PM

Worstblogever, Yeah, the warrant thing was kind of silly. Why was Freedom Force bothering to catch the X-Men if they got no warrant?? Pretty convenient ending. It's strange the United States government would sponsor Freedom Force--a band made up of villains and wildcards. This cannot end well. It's like the US backing terrorists.

Hmmm...that Avengers Annual #15 sounds intriguing. I actually wouldn't mind reading about that. WBE, do you know where it would place, chronologically with Uncanny X-Men? Your thoughts on Spiral and Mojo interest me. The idea you put forth is what I think Marvel was headed to. Spiral joined Freedom Force, to film things in Mojoverse. Sounds like this plot never pans out though.

I agree with you that Mojo & Spiral are 2 of the weirdest characters in the Marvel Universe.

Anoydne, I wonder if Madelyne Pryor felt guilt over "taking" Scott away from his X-Men family. Perhaps she had second thoughts, and that postcard was her first attempt to bring her family closer to the mutants. It is tragic to read this, knowing what is happening over in X-Factor. I think Scott should be trying harder to locate his wife & baby son.

I agree with you about Scott not phoning from Paris after UXM #200. It made little sense. Also his icy demeanor towards Maddie and baby Nathan at the start of UXM #201. You could tell something was wrong with Cyclops.

Look at "Grumpy" Summers on the page below:

http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/pages/97792366288.201.P1.GIF

creaky

11-23-2008, 01:48 PM

Plus, Nightcrawler sees Judith Rassendyll off to her new destiny as Queen of a European nation. They flirt a bit and hug. As Kurt watches her airplane take off for Europe, Kurt thinks he's in his element fighting villains and saving damsels in distress. As he puts on his fedora hat, Kurt couldn't be happier.

...and if there was ever a scene that pointed out that that was actually not the case, it's this one. It even starts out with Amanda on a plane, thinking about Kurt's trust issues and crying over the break-up (which she's not even sure was a break-up). One of her friends say "the creep had better be worth it" and she says "once upon a time...he was." Damn.
While Kurt is flirting with Miss Judith, who keeps telling him - even while flirting back - that Kurt should take things more seriously and that she feels sorry for him. "Why did she say that, silly girl?" Kurt wonders as he walks off into the sunset. Denial! And this from someone who is usually very observant about what's going on both in his own head and others'. All is not right in the House of Wagner.
(Had this sequence actually been in the #204 one-shot, that issue would have read so much better.)

After this starts act... four? Five? Whatever. Big, fat turds will hit the fan!

Also, that is Kitty's worst.outfit.EVER. I couldn't even tell it was her at first.

Anodyne

11-23-2008, 05:04 PM

Also, that is Kitty's worst.outfit.EVER. I couldn't even tell it was her at first. IIRC, Kitty's horrid taste in costumes was a deliberate part of her early characterization. She eventually outgrew it.

david r

11-23-2008, 07:51 PM

Creaky, I'm really not so sure WHY Kurt was so happy at #206's end. All is still not right in the House of Wagner. What was resolved in the Arcade story exactly? He and Amanda are not speaking. His spiritual issues are not resolved. His leadership blew up in his face. He needs to send Amanda another Bamf doll to make up for his rude behavior. :tongue:

Rachel Summers comments on Page 6, #206, made no sense. "It's too soon--I can't face Scott yet--I'm not ready to meet my father--" WHAT? She and Scott have met several times. It's even subtley understood that Cyclops knows who she really is. What's going on here?

(Is Rachel immortal, BTW?? Because Spiral says about her, on Page 11, "Yours is a life rich with time, girl. If I stole it, I could remain young and vital almost forever." Does the Phoenix make someone near immortal? Cause this part hints to it.)

Rogue finally says she's come to grips with Carol Danvers. This was long overdue. Rogue had a near-breakdown in UXM #182-186, and then nothing more was mentioned about it.

It was silly how the San Francisco neighborhood was supposedly "haunted", so the homes are completely empty and "For Sale" when Freedom Force attack. Killing no civilians in the process. A little too convenient.

This part is cute. At the Marvel Christmas Party in 1985, a scale model of tough-gal X-Men Editor Ann Nocenti wearing a Black Queen costume was given to scribe Chris Claremont. Sounds like they had fun back then.

creaky

11-24-2008, 12:10 AM

worstblogever

11-24-2008, 01:13 AM

Hmmm...that Avengers Annual #15 sounds intriguing. I actually wouldn't mind reading about that. WBE, do you know where it would place, chronologically with Uncanny X-Men?

Avengers Annual #15 has to take place after Uncanny X-Men #206, as well as X-Factor (vol. 1) #9-10, as Julia Carpenter, as Spider-Woman, is on Freedom Force in all those issues, attacking the X-Men in the former, and trying to help FF capture Rusty Collins in the other. Avengers Annual #15 is the straw that breaks the camel's back for Julia, as she helps Freedom Force arrest the Avengers for a crime she's certain they didn't commit. I mean, come on, Captain America commit treason? She goes on to earn her status as an Avenger for helping them once they're about to be locked away in The Vault.(Unless it's Civil War, of course.)

So in general, the annual likely would, in continuity, take place just after Mutant Massacre.

Even more interesting, is the reveal in part 2 of the tale, West Coast Avengers Annual #1, about who sold out the Avengers.

It's also a bit later, but they actually TEAM UP with the Avengers to battle all the villains in The Vault, including Venom, in Avengers: Death Trap- The Vault #1 in a 1991 graphic novel. I know, if we explore every satellite story, this thread really, really will take a long time. But Freedom Force is full of awesome.

CallMeGeoff

11-24-2008, 11:23 AM

Even more interesting, is the reveal in part 2 of the tale, West Coast Avengers Annual #1, about who sold out the Avengers.

It's also a bit later, but they actually TEAM UP with the Avengers to battle all the villains in The Vault, including Venom, in Avengers: Death Trap- The Vault #1 in a 1991 graphic novel. I know, if we explore every satellite story, this thread really, really will take a long time. But Freedom Force is full of awesome.

I'm going to have to track these issues down. I never knew about this story. Thanks, worstblogever!

Cub

11-24-2008, 11:52 AM

IIRC, Kitty's horrid taste in costumes was a deliberate part of her early characterization. She eventually outgrew it.

I don't think she ever outgrew it.

david r

11-24-2008, 08:38 PM

So Avengers Annual #15 is after the Mutant Massacre. I shall remember that.

david r

11-25-2008, 08:32 PM

I have a quick question on UXM #204. Do we ever find out who hired Arcade to kill Judith Rassendyll? I cannot believe this is never revealed.

worstblogever

11-26-2008, 01:10 AM

I have a quick question on UXM #204. Do we ever find out who hired Arcade to kill Judith Rassendyll? I cannot believe this is never revealed.

Likely someone who didn't want her to inherit the throne of Ruritania, I'd imagine. But no, I don't think so. Other than that she just has like cameo appearances, and it's not revealed, either.

CJ Lentze

11-26-2008, 01:56 PM

A great issue; perhaps a bit standard, though I always like appearances of the Brotherhood, and it's funny how the Brotherhood are now 'superheroes' who are trying to arrest the X-Men, turning things around on them.

Your questions about Rachel, david: I think Rachel is not quite sure that Scott suspects that she's his daughter. The reader knows that he suspects it, but she herself is not completely certain that he does. And I suppose that's why she's still afraid of facing him and telling it to him straight that she's his kid from the future.

About Spiral's comment, I'm not sure, unfortunately (there are others who read this thread and who know far more about the Phoenix Force): I thought Spiral was referring to Rachel being a time traveller when she said 'life rich in time'. How this would aid her in 'keeping her young and vital', I don't know; but we also saw in this issue how strangely Spiral responds to being touched by Rogue, so...

This issue had a lot of cool moments.

david r

11-26-2008, 06:53 PM

WBE, Thanks for your explanation. I just think it's a glaring oversight. I also wonder about the mention of the Elfburgs, and Kurt (elf) appearing, too. The "Elfburgs"?? Seems too much of a chance.

Schuimend Mormel, I think you hit it. Rachel is unsure if Scott accepts her, and she must be afraid. But Rachel is having a rough time (as the next issue shows!) I agree, #206 had a lot of cool moments.

david r

11-26-2008, 08:26 PM

http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/97792366288.207.GIF

Uncanny X-Men #207

"Ghosts"

An issue focusing on Rachel Summers, as she struggles with her tortured past. Wolverine is along for the ride, as they deal with repercussions from what the "New Phoenix" has done. The ending is a controversial shocker! :eek:

Following Uncanny X-Men #203, in which Rachel Summers took the life essences of the X-Men (some, against their will), a psionic rapport now exists between Wolverine & the young Phoenix. Logan keeps getting dragged into Rachel's tortured nightmares. One shows her destroyed future-world, filled with smoking craters and ruined buildings. Rachel cannot come to terms with her past as a Hound; hunting down, and sometimes killing, fellow mutants. After one such dream, Rachel awakens in a strange room. The reader learns the X-Men are holing out in the "Alley"--the Morlocks' home. Wolverine himself is still unwell, after his bloody fight with Lady Deathstrike, in UXM #205. The X-Men brought Logan to the Morlock Healer, and this is where they've stayed. Once Rachel gets dressed and joins her teammates, she realizes they still hold a grudge for what she did. Taking from them their life essences, actually forcibly taking Storm's away from her. This is not something one can get over easily.

After another round of horrible nightmares, in which Rachel is chased by a maddened Wolverine, Rachel flees from the Alley, into the heart of Manhattan. There, Rachel is reminded of an episode which occured in Uncanny X-Men #184. Meeting a young man at a club, who took her to his apartment for shelter. There the vampiric Selene killed the young man, and tried to seize Rachel's life force. Rachel cannot remember the young man's name, but she remembers his act of kindness. And decides she has unfinished business. Rachel tracks down Friedrich von Roehm, and uses the new Hellfire Club Black Rook to sneak into the fabled Club. She dons a maid uniform, and locates Selene's bedroom. Once inside, she recalls these are the people who sent her mother, Jean Grey into madness as the Dark Phoenix. Now is her chance to avenge this. Rachel bursts into her Phoenix look, the golden bird shining aloft. Rachel destroys Selene's bed, sending the raven-haired mutant sprawling.

Selene strikes back with her mutant powers, but Phoenix has taken her completely by surprise. Rachel overwhelms her, and clutches Selene in a Phoenix-bird talon!! The outburst has sent the workers of the HC scrambling. (Other members like Sebastian Shaw, Emma Frost are conveniently absent.) Rachel plans to kill Selene. And then walks in Wolverine. Bare-chested, and still scarred from battle, Wolverine asks Rachel to stop. Rachel screams that Selene is a cold-blooded killer, and she will be saving future lives by ending Selene's life now. But Logan replies that this is MURDER!! And X-Men do not murder. Justify it however you like, it's still wrong. Rachel doesn't care! She yells that Phoenix makes her own rules. Wolverine gives her one last warning. Come away from Selene. Rachel replies "And know that people will DIE because I did?! I know enough ghosts--there are TOO MANY ghosts--and I won't allow anymore!" Wolverine edges closer to her as Rachel says "The only way to stop me, Logan...is to kill me."

SNIKT!

My thoughts: Another outstanding issue. I can definitely understand the X-Men's cold demeanor towards their young Phoenix. What Rachel did in #203 is rather inexcusable. And the poor woman is torn by so much guilt, which seem to be eating away at her soul. Even when Rachel tries to put things right, it comes back to haunt her. There were many startling visuals here; I especially liked the look on Rachel's face on Page 12, second panel. Very intense and with her words and expression, NOT the young girl we've known up till now. Wolverine seems the obvious choice to relate to Rachel's feelings better than anyone, thus why he keeps hounding her in her dreams. I think it's odd Logan hasn't healed from his battle with Lady Deathstrike. I believed his healing factor worked quicker than this. As for Selene, I found it odd she remembered her victims' names, and even "honors" them. Yet, Rachel could NOT recall the young man's name. I wonder why? The panels of Rachel sneaking into the Hellfire Club were cool. And of course.........................................the legendary ending. I believe this ending is hugely controversial. Would Wolverine actually kill Rachel Summers, in order to save a villain? Hasn't Wolverine himself killed? Is Rachel doing the right thing? X-fans still debate this particular ending, to this day.

worstblogever

11-27-2008, 01:36 AM

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/97792366288.207.GIF

Uncanny X-Men #207

"Ghosts"

An issue focusing on Rachel Summers, as she struggles with her tortured past. Wolverine is along for the ride, as they deal with repercussions from what the "New Phoenix" has done. The ending is a controversial shocker! :eek:

Following Uncanny X-Men #203, in which Rachel Summers took the life essences of the X-Men (some, against their will), a psionic rapport now exists between Wolverine & the young Phoenix. Logan keeps getting dragged into Rachel's tortured nightmares. One shows her destroyed future-world, filled with smoking craters and ruined buildings. Rachel cannot come to terms with her past as a Hound; hunting down, and sometimes killing, fellow mutants. After one such dream, Rachel awakens in a strange room. The reader learns the X-Men are holing out in the "Alley"--the Morlocks' home. Wolverine himself is still unwell, after his bloody fight with Lady Deathstrike, in UXM #205. The X-Men brought Logan to the Morlock Healer, and this is where they've stayed. Once Rachel gets dressed and joins her teammates, she realizes they still hold a grudge for what she did. Taking from them their life essences, actually forcibly taking Storm's away from her. This is not something one can get over easily.

After another round of horrible nightmares, in which Rachel is chased by a maddened Wolverine, Rachel flees from the Alley, into the heart of Manhattan. There, Rachel is reminded of an episode which occured in Uncanny X-Men #184. Meeting a young man at a club, who took her to his apartment for shelter. There the vampiric Selene killed the young man, and tried to seize Rachel's life force. Rachel cannot remember the young man's name, but she remembers his act of kindness. And decides she has unfinished business. Rachel tracks down Friedrich von Roehm, and uses the new Hellfire Club Black Rook to sneak into the fabled Club. She dons a maid uniform, and locates Selene's bedroom. Once inside, she recalls these are the people who sent her mother, Jean Grey into madness as the Dark Phoenix. Now is her chance to avenge this. Rachel bursts into her Phoenix look, the golden bird shining aloft. Rachel destroys Selene's bed, sending the raven-haired mutant sprawling.

Selene strikes back with her mutant powers, but Phoenix has taken her completely by surprise. Rachel overwhelms her, and clutches Selene in a Phoenix-bird talon!! The outburst has sent the workers of the HC scrambling. (Other members like Sebastian Shaw, Emma Frost are conveniently absent.) Rachel plans to kill Selene. And then walks in Wolverine. Bare-chested, and still scarred from battle, Wolverine asks Rachel to stop. Rachel screams that Selene is a cold-blooded killer, and she will be saving future lives by ending Selene's life now. But Logan replies that this is MURDER!! And X-Men do not murder. Justify it however you like, it's still wrong. Rachel doesn't care! She yells that Phoenix makes her own rules. Wolverine gives her one last warning. Come away from Selene. Rachel replies "And know that people will DIE because I did?! I know enough ghosts--there are TOO MANY ghosts--and I won't allow anymore!" Wolverine edges closer to her as Rachel says "The only way to stop me, Logan...is to kill me."

SNIKT!

My thoughts: Another outstanding issue. I can definitely understand the X-Men's cold demeanor towards their young Phoenix. What Rachel did in #203 is rather inexcusable. And the poor woman is torn by so much guilt, which seem to be eating away at her soul. Even when Rachel tries to put things right, it comes back to haunt her. There were many startling visuals here; I especially liked the look on Rachel's face on Page 12, second panel. Very intense and with her words and expression, NOT the young girl we've known up till now. Wolverine seems the obvious choice to relate to Rachel's feelings better than anyone, thus why he keeps hounding her in her dreams. I think it's odd Logan hasn't healed from his battle with Lady Deathstrike. I believed his healing factor worked quicker than this. As for Selene, I found it odd she remembered her victims' names, and even "honors" them. Yet, Rachel could NOT recall the young man's name. I wonder why? The panels of Rachel sneaking into the Hellfire Club were cool. And of course.........................................the legendary ending. I believe this ending is hugely controversial. Would Wolverine actually kill Rachel Summers, in order to save a villain? Hasn't Wolverine himself killed? Is Rachel doing the right thing? X-fans still debate this particular ending, to this day.

I love Logan and all, but this really is a case of the pot stabbing the kettle for being black.

Readers were left confused by this hero vs. hero fight. Who's really more in the wrong here? Logan, for actually defending the life of Selene, and calling Rachel's bluff?

Or Rachel, who's been out of control, and taking matters in her own hands, raging out of control by absorbing the life force of her teammates, and then seemingly giving in to what might even be her Hound programming rearing its ugly head.

And, what's more important, is the fact that you just know Selene won't be taking this affront lying down, and neither will the HC. Mmm hmm.

CJ Lentze

11-27-2008, 06:56 AM

An important factor in this moral dilemma is Wolverine's fear that Rachel might become a second Dark Phoenix like her mother before her (jarrod helped pointing out the significance of this to me in a thread last year, and I think Chris Claremont mentioned it in an interview as well).
Another thing about Wolverine is that (as of around issue 150-ish) he often tries to discourage teammates from killing, rather than encourage them (sometimes he's seen doing the latter, though). It appears that he doesn't want his friends, like Storm and Kitty, to go down the road he has and become ruthless killers. He feels okay with being the X-Men's 'bullet'; to be pointed at an enemy and then shot off at them in the case that there's a need to finish that enemy, but he doesn't want anybody else to fill that role. Same with his thoughts on the new X-Force at the start of that series this year. Of course, Rachel already has a past filled with killing, and then ruthless survival, but perhaps Wolverine wants to keep her from more grief, which is why he first tries to calm her down by talking, and taking her back to the Morlock tunnels. That didn't work; he figured he wouldn't be able to stand against Dark Phoenix, and perhaps having feelings of some fear, he thought all he could do to prevent disaster was to stab Rachel. I'd like to see creaky's thoughts on Wolverine's actions in this issue.

All the ingredients for a second Dark Phoenix were there: the Hellfire Club setting, Rachel's anger, her increasing power... only Mastermind was missing.

About Rachel's motivation to go into the Hellfire Club and take out Selene (and the other Lords Cardinal), and the right and wrong of this; take a good look at the panel in which Rachel decides to do this. Up until that point, much of the story was about Rachel's insecurities and about her guilt, the role she played in the tragedy of her past. It seems to me that Rachel simply wanted to lash out at something or someone; since Selene is the closest thing Rachel has to a nemesis in this timeline (except for Nimrod), Rachel goes after her, and wants to take out the entire Hellfire Club while she's at it, since they were responsible for 'Jean' turning Dark Phoenix anyway. Instead of facing her own problems, perhaps even talking about them to her friends, she thinks she can make it go away or make it better if she hits something, if she beats up on a villain.

About Selene remembering Nicolas Damiano's name while Rachel has forgotten it: if I understand correctly (but perhaps Imraith Nimphais will know better), Selene remembers the souls of all the people of whom she absorbs the life force. She experiences their lives when she absorbs them, and a good soul tastes better than an evil one. She says something about this in the next issue. I think Rachel forgot Damiano's name because that may happen to everyone, even telepaths. At that time (I still haven't read Uncanny X-Men 184), Rachel was fully focused on survival; she'd remember that Damiano helped her, but his name wouldn't necessarily stick with her, especially considering how briefly they were together.

Please remind me, I no longer have this issue and I can't remember, what was the second panel of page 12 you mentioned (and Rachel's intense expression)? I'll know if you mention the text in the speech bubbles.

Wolverine seems the obvious choice to relate to Rachel's feelings better than anyone, thus why he keeps hounding her in her dreams.An interesting part in Rachel's dream sequence mentions that "all the X-Men forgave Rachel for her past as a Hound, save one", and then we see Wolverine's menacing shadow in the foreground, watching her flee. Does this mean that Wolverine harboured some resentment and distrust for Rachel which we didn't see in "Days Of Future Past"? Present Wolverine doesn't understand why Rachel makes him the hunter in her dreams, but while Wolverine (young or old) should be able to understand Rachel because he himself has been subjected to mind control programs, I could see him being resentful toward a mutant who used to be a mutant hunter because he knows how dangerous this may make such a mutant.

The most haunting part of this issue, to me, was when Rachel wakes up and a voice rings in her head that says "you'd be better off dead" or something like that. The other X-Men did have the right to be angry at her, but it may well have been 'the push' for her. I'm kind of fascinated by the Rachel we see here, doing a little bit of introspection throughout the issue, but never really getting anywhere. She's allowing herself to be backed into a mental corner, then lashes out the wrong way.

worstblogever

11-27-2008, 07:16 AM

This is the issue Schiumend was born to discuss. :redface:

Hi-Fi

11-27-2008, 07:32 AM

Rogue was rude to Rachel, but she expressed regret soon. She's such a sweetie.

This is one of my favorite stories. This is the Rachel I like. She was great in it.

david r

11-27-2008, 08:11 AM

Worstblogever, This really is "a case of the pot stabbing the kettle for being black." Wolverine has shown a strong affinity to killing. I remember in UXM #202, on Page 3, when Logan says " My only regret is I won't be there with her...for the kill". This was when Rachel was going to murder the Beyonder. He is not squeamish about killing. Yet now, he stops her from killing Selene. Wolvie is inconsistent. I think it's because this is cold blooded killing.

Schuimend Mormel, I had not thought of that---Wolverine worried about a second Dark Phoenix being born. That makes total sense. (Especially with the Hellfire Club involved.) Perhaps because of Rachel's past as a Hound, she might be more inclined to *slip* to the Dark Side, and lose control of the Phoenix. I have to admit, reading Rachel Summers in these last 2 issues.........I'm not AT ALL sure I'd want such an emotionally unhinged individual wielding the Phoenix power. Rachel doesn't always show the best judgment.

All the ingredients for a second Dark Phoenix were there: the Hellfire Club setting, Rachel's anger, her increasing power... only Mastermind was missing.

You are right. I hadn't noticed that till now. Which is probably why Wolverine was so dead set in stopping Rachel.

I think Schuimend is correct, that Rachel real enemy is HERSELF. She lashes out at Selene and the Lord Cardinal, but she's actually fighting an inner turmoil. Rachel is wracked with guilt over being a Hound. And all that anger and guilt is shown in Rachel striking out at the Beyonder or Selene. It's all clearly spelled out in these issues. Good stuff.

Please remind me, I no longer have this issue and I can't remember, what was the second panel of page 12 you mentioned (and Rachel's intense expression)? I'll know if you mention the text in the speech bubbles.

See the page below, in gorgeous B&W. Rachel's eyes look older than her years. I was taken aback by Phoenix calling the crowds "stupid, complacent humans."

david r

11-27-2008, 08:39 AM

Imraith Nimphais

11-27-2008, 09:41 AM

First-ly...You are absolute correct about Selene, Schuimend Mormel...as her immortality depends on this, she has no choice but to remember and live with the life essences of those she absorbs, both the good and the worst.
Second-ly...(and this is just a thought borne out of something Schuimend said) subliminally, maybe Rachel, in the darkness of her despare and misery, for all the pain and suffering she herself perpetuated in her own time-line, felt that she really should be dead.., (as a sort of self-inflicted punishment, perhaps)...and as her dreams "foretold", Wolverine was the one to do it...and this was just a way of going about getting it done...my reasoning is simply this...It has been shown when in full Phoenix-fire, nothing and no one could possibly come close to doing any sort of damage, certainly not a perfectly healthy Logan, and most assuredly not an incapacitated one...Rachel could have taken out both Selene and him easily (doubly so in her madness)...I am sure of it.
And third-ly...I really miss Wolvie's brown and black costume...it was perfect!

david r

11-27-2008, 11:51 AM

Second-ly...(and this is just a thought borne out of something Schuimend said) subliminally, maybe Rachel, in the darkness of her despare and misery, for all the pain and suffering she herself perpetuated in her own time-line, felt that she really should be dead.., (as a sort of self-inflicted punishment, perhaps)...and as her dreams "foretold", Wolverine was the one to do it...and this was just a way of going about getting it done...my reasoning is simply this...It has been shown when in full Phoenix-fire, nothing and no one could possibly come close to doing any sort of damage, certainly not a perfectly healthy Logan, and most assuredly not an incapacitated one...Rachel could have taken out both Selene and him easily (doubly so in her madness)...I am sure of it.

Nice call, Imraith. I had NEVER considered that!! Rachel is so filled with guilt, a part of her WANTS to die. And so she *wishes* Wolverine to hunt her down (like a Hound would???) and terminate her. With extreme prejudice. The poor, poor messed up girl. :frown:

CJ Lentze

11-27-2008, 01:34 PM

This is the issue Schiumend was born to discuss. :redface::redface: I try, big guy.Rogue was rude to Rachel, but she expressed regret soon. She's such a sweetie.

This is one of my favorite stories. This is the Rachel I like. She was great in it.Rogue would have had the right to be rude, but I think it's cool that she was the only X-Man who tried to talk to Ray and come to a bit of understanding. She tells Rachel as it is, but at least she doesn't snap at her or ignore her (both are understandable reactions from Kitty and Ororo). Rogue knows what it's like to have done things that are very bad AND she knows what it's like to walk around with her brain in a mess, while she's angry at Ray like the others, Rogue knows that a bit of regret may be needed before Ray can repair herself. Worstblogever, This really is "a case of the pot stabbing the kettle for being black." Wolverine has shown a strong affinity to killing. I remember in UXM #202, on Page 3, when Logan says " My only regret is why I won't be there with her...for the kill". This was when Rachel was going to murder the Beyonder. He is not squeamish about killing. Yet now, he stops her from killing Selene. Wolvie is inconsistent. I think it's because this is cold blooded killing.Perhaps Wolverine is inconsistent, I've noticed his going back and forth between "Don't kill!" and "Happy hunting". But when Rachel intended to kill the Beyonder, she was as cold blooded as with Selene. A difference now is that Wolverine was sharing a mindlink or dreamlink with Rachel, which gives him a full view on her inner thoughts. I think it gives him a new perspective on both her motivations and her inner torment, and he realises what her actions would lead to, and the consequences they'd have for both her and everyone else. He was still woozy, but the dreamlink may have been something of an eye-opener.See the page below, in gorgeous B&W. Rachel's eyes look older than her years. I was taken aback by Phoenix calling the crowds "stupid, complacent humans."Ah, yes. Me too, it's not the first time that Rachel says something like this. The world she comes from is very different; most of her friends were mutants (the ones she remembers from after her childhood and her brainwashing), most of her enemies were baseline humans (or robots). Though Moira MacTaggert (and Stevie, Friedlander, Corsi) was present at the school when Rachel came to the present, Rachel hasn't had a lot of close friends who were normal humans, or a loving non-mutant family like Hank or Peter, for example. To her, they are a people she very much distrusts, she's wary of them. I would go as far as saying that -at this point- Ray is somewhat prejudiced against non-mutants. See the considerable irony in what she says: "So many of you hate us-- not as people, not as individuals, but simply because of what we are. Mutants." A generalisation (though she does say "so many" in stead of "all of"), to counter another generalisation. I think that, at this point, Ray has a bit less hope in the 'humanity' of baseline humans than the other X-Men have.

At the same time, she is concerned when innocent baseline human lives fall victim to villains (Nick Damiano, for instance, and countless bystanders).

That is a nice panel and a great page.

Second-ly...(and this is just a thought borne out of something Schuimend said) subliminally, maybe Rachel, in the darkness of her despare and misery, for all the pain and suffering she herself perpetuated in her own time-line, felt that she really should be dead.., (as a sort of self-inflicted punishment, perhaps)...and as her dreams "foretold", Wolverine was the one to do it...and this was just a way of going about getting it done...my reasoning is simply this...It has been shown when in full Phoenix-fire, nothing and no one could possibly come close to doing any sort of damage, certainly not a perfectly healthy Logan, and most assuredly not an incapacitated one...Rachel could have taken out both Selene and him easily (doubly so in her madness)...I am sure of it.Jean- or rather the Phoenix Force- suggested the same thing to Wolverine when the X-Men fought her for the second time.
It's startling, but Rachel is walking around with a suicidal thought or two, quite clearly. It doesn't help that she feels as though the X-Men shun and reject her, and that she's doubting her value to the team. Of course, a lot of other thoughts race through her head as well; thoughts of vindication, thoughts of survival... All competing with each other in this issue and the next ones.

Imraith Nimphais

11-27-2008, 02:45 PM

Sad but true, Schuimend...I must say, from her intro up until this point, I was hoping for some form of deliverence? from her past...and I was (att of reading) somewot taken aback at where the writer was taking her character...
edit: those B/W panels are so beauty-fully...atmospheric..I luv 'em.

limerick

11-27-2008, 05:20 PM

The moment of truth:

http://www.rachel-summers.com/gallery/uncannyxmen207a.jpg

Page 12, from Uncanny X-Men #207 presented below, in dazzling black and white:

http://comicartfans.com/Images/Category_4788/subcat_20058/uxmen207pg16.JPG

And to all American X-fans, HAPPY THANKSGIVING!
I've never understood Wolverine's logic here.
To stop Rachel killing Selene he's willing to kill her.What's he achieving?His same logic should have led him to killing Colossus before he could kill Moira Mctaggerts son way back when.
And if his motivation is to stop her turning into the Dark Pheonix when did the X-men start killing people for what they MIGHT do?
Sorry,Wolvie----You're just a big bad ass HYPOCRITE!!!
(p.s.----always hated the way Romita Jr. drew Wolverine,anyway.I think his eyes were too small or something insignificant like that)

takatomon

11-27-2008, 05:46 PM

The group really pissed me off on this issue. They all knew what kind of future Rachel came from. They knew the girl was messed up. They knew she was getting all Phoenix-y. And they still blew her off. Sure they could have been mad but they should have remembered what happened with Jean. They all ignored her growing powers and didn't talk to her about them and what their worries where, and BAM she becomes evil. You'd think after that experience they'd be a little more caring and understanding with a strong member of the Grey family.

david r

11-27-2008, 08:02 PM

Schuimend Mormel, More observations on Rachel Summers, and her present state of mind. I think you're right that Rachel doesn't entirely trust, or even like, baseline humans. Remember though, it was baseline humans who forced her to hunt down her fellow mutants. It was baseline humans who brought mutantkind to their knees, in death camps. I can understand her feelings. What have us humans done for Rachel's kind?

Takatomon, I think the X-Men should have sat down with Rachel and wanted a full explanation of what she did in Uncanny X-Men #203. Taking their life essences really is NOT okay. And she didn't even gain all their consents to do it. I can understand why they're leery of her now. But shunning her is not the right choice.

Thanks for all the thoughts on this memorable issue. Reading these comments is half the fun! I always liked the cover (shown below). And how Wolverine seems to be slicing through the cover!

http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/97792366288.207.GIF

david r

11-28-2008, 07:24 AM

Not exactly sure when Chris Claremont's birthday is. Is it November 25th or 30th?? Different sources say different things. Oh well, this may be little early, or a little late! Here is my birthday greeting to Claremont!

http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/6751/ccbirthdayez7.jpg

Image supplied by poster Soundwave:

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/2603/bdcc2008sw7.jpg

wolvie616

11-28-2008, 07:46 AM

Not exactly sure when Chris Claremont's birthday is. Is it November 25th or 30th?? Different sources say different things. Oh well, this may be little early, or a little late! Here is my birthday greeting to Claremont!

http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/6751/ccbirthdayez7.jpg

Images supplied by poster Soundwave:

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/2603/bdcc2008sw7.jpg

i looooooooovvvvvvvvvvvveeeeeeeeeee chris

happy bithday!

Imraith Nimphais

11-28-2008, 11:45 AM

HA!...that was a very fun read...I love it!
Happy Birthday CC, indeed.

CallMeGeoff

11-28-2008, 03:47 PM

Agh! I can't believe I missed this awesome discussion! Great work, guys!

I like the idea of Rachel being so guilty that she wanted Wolvie to kill her. Maybe she even telepathically influenced his actions (consciously or unconsciously)? He was in pretty bad shape, so maybe his mental blocks weren't at full capacity or something. I wouldn't say she was controlling his mind necessarily, but maybe just a mental nudge?

Also, Rachel becoming Dark Phoenix is an idea I had never really considered. Very interesting indeed. I can definitely see why Rachel as Phoenix makes everyone so uncomfortable now. I always just thought she reminded everybody of their dead friend, but for whatever reason, the thought of the same thing happening to Rachel never really occurred to me before now. Again, great work.

Oh, and happy b-day, CC!

wolvie616

11-28-2008, 04:19 PM

david r

11-28-2008, 07:05 PM

http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/97792366288.208.GIF

Uncanny X-Men #208

"Retribution"

The Rachel angst continues, in this incredibly good issue. You know, the Romita years weren't bad. Not bad at all. In fact, these issues should be called classics. Great art, great writing. Look at Phoenix up there in the corner cover box. Why isn't she with her teammates? Do tell.....

"Wolverine--how COULD you?! WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?!?" So screams Kitty Pryde, to her teammate who just stabbed fellow X-Man, Rachel Summers, through the heart! Wolverine stands before the X-Men, and the Morlocks, in the "Alley", deep below New York's streets. Shadowcat is outraged at Logan's act against Rachel, and screams him the riot act. Logan simply says the X-Men ain't murderers. Storm finally ends their heated discussion. They must find their wounded member, wherever she may be. The reader now segues to above ground. To Central Park, to be exact. There, we find an aged Selene, who has survived Phoenix's attack on her, from last issue. Selene grabs a mugger in the darkened Central Park, and drains his life essence. This brings her back to her beautiful vitality. However, she always drains the mugger's intended victim. No doubt she's a baddie!

Back to full health, the mysterious mutant Selene returns to the fabled Hellfire Club, where she confronts the present Inner Circle, made up of Sebastian Shaw, Harry Leyland and Friedrich von Roehm. Shaw's assistant Tessa stands by his side. Selene explains how the X-Man Phoenix, easily entered the Lord Cardinals mansion, and nearly ended Selene's life. Rachel intended to murder ANY of the Inner Circle she discovered, and it was only fate (in the form of Wolverine) which saved Selene's life. Selent wants them to find and locate Phoenix, and destroy her, so this cannot happen again. They debate, but Shaw reluctantly agrees to her plan. (It's pretty obvious there's no love lost between Shaw & Selene.) We now cut back to the night outside, to a mortally wounded Rachel Summers, laying down in a corner of Central Park, bleeding from mouth & nose, with a large gaping hole in her chest. Wolverine's claws cut into her heart and lungs, and only her telekinetic powers are blocking the wounds tight. But she is in deep bad shape, and if Rachel loosens her telekinetic control, she could easily bleed to death.

Rachel stands and weakly walks through the vines and paths of the famous NY park. Rachel comes across the clothes of Selene's recent victims. She becomes enraged!! And blames Wolverine for these 2 deaths! Her eyes grow red, as she sends the Phoenix Bird to find Logan. And find him it does, with the other X-Men walking subway tunnel. The Phoenix grabs hold of Wolverine and leaps him into the air. The pain Logan feels is so excruciating he cannot even scream! The Phoenix Bird drops him in front of an oncoming commuter train, but Kitty Pryde phases him out of harm's way. The X-Men realize they must find Rachel....and soon. Eventually, they make it to Central Park, where Caliban has joined them, and uses his mutant power to locate Rachel. Unfortunately, the Hellfire Club are also within the Park, and searching themselves. Selene turns her associate, Von Roehm, into an obeying slave, like a Hound. Using her power, she sends the obedient von Roehm into the park to find Rachel. Unbeknownst to them all, the mutant-hunting Sentinel from the future, Nimrod, is watching these proceedings. Using radars coming forth from his mechanical hands, Nimrod is keeping tabs on the mutants in Central Park.

Both groups of mutants locate Rachel, nearly at the same time. And Rogue and Von Roehm tear it up. The teams confront one another, but neither side will yield. Harry Leyland uses his mutant power to control mass to send Colossus sinking into the earth. The object of all this is Rachel, who lays nearby, still hurt and confused. Rachel thinks the X-Men, maybe don't love her anymore. She feels she'll just get in the way of this battle, and doesn't want to cause anymore harm. Rachel limps away, leaving her teammates to fend for themselves. Just as Storm is about to be captured by 3 Hellfire Club goons, the purple-hewed Sentinel materializes before them all in Central Park. Nimrod says the use of their mutant powers is a Capital Crime--PUNISHABLE BY DEATH!!

My thoughts: This issue is ratcheting up the action, and the complications, higher in the X-Men's world. I now think all of Rachel Summers' actions since UXM #202 have been leading her to this moment. Has she severed her relationship with the X-Men? Rachel's motivations over the last 7 issues have been controversial, at best. Her beat-down of Wolverine in #208, may be the last straw. It seems since UXM #200, the X-Men have been spending their time cleaning up Phoenix's dilemmas. As for our villains, I love this Hellfire Club intrigue shit. Selene causes Sebastian Shaw's hairs to stand up on end. Selene seems to be using Rachel's attack to co-op leadership from Shaw. I also liked the heated argument between Kitty and Logan, which starts the issue. She sure has grown up, and Kitty is not afraid to stand her ground. When Logan calls her "pun'kin" and Kitty says "Don't you EVER call me that again!" , I'm sure a piece of Logan's heart broke. It was a fabulous "character" moment for Kitty. All in all, the John Romita Jr. run is quality stuff, and I cannot recommend this issue, or this era, enough. This is seriously good stuff.

limerick

11-28-2008, 07:56 PM

Oh boy!Nimrod's back.He's awesome.This issue is quality with a return to form for Claremont with him seamlessly interweaving different storylines.Pheonix is out of control and something needs to be done.Wolverine did step out of line but she's a loose cannon in these issues and she needs to be brought back into line.

I found Von Rohem to be quite a comical figure--his stature seems out of place with his role as Selene's slave.I suppose that was part of the point--to prove her absolute control , to make someone so unsuitable to a roll as fighter obey her wishes so completely.

Selene is ruthless and her slaying of the mugger's victim displays this all too well ,as you commented,David.

The X-men seem to be really back on track here,storywise.

CJ Lentze

11-29-2008, 06:42 AM

Happy birthday, Mr. Claremont!Sad but true, Schuimend...I must say, from her intro up until this point, I was hoping for some form of deliverence? from her past...and I was (att of reading) somewot taken aback at where the writer was taking her character...
edit: those B/W panels are so beauty-fully...atmospheric..I luv 'em.We know what's in store for Rachel, both for short-term and long-term... and I want to say something about these 3 issues as one story, but until issue 209 is reviewed, I'll have to wait. :redface:

It really intensifies in this story, after having been stabbed by Wolverine, thinking about releasing her 'telekinetic plugs' that keep her bleeding from death, and the "why won't this nightmare ever end?" thoughts. The despair is upped a notch. A very dark chapter in her story. (and a very different Rachel from the smiley-faced girl in my avatar, eh?)

I certainly see how this story is kind of disheartening to read- especially when you're rooting for her-, after surviving what she'd been through, then her self-appointed duty to redeem herself for her past and clear the name of Phoenix... But I think that Chris Claremont knew the readers could have been expecting a redemption of the Phoenix and a new rise to heroic glory: instead he tells the story of a girl who, through circumstance and insecurities, fails. It's another part of reality: heroes rise, heroes fall, and they don't always win. I have always liked that Rachel's first tenure on the X-Men is riddled with smaller and greater mistakes.

Those thought bubbles where Rachel considers it might be a good idea to 'put her ghosts to rest', I imagine that was pretty controversial back then. I haven't seen a lot of superheroes have their angst manifest in that way.

Schuimend Mormel, More observations on Rachel Summers, and her present state of mind. I think you're right that Rachel doesn't entirely trust, or even like, baseline humans. Remember though, it was baseline humans who forced her to hunt down her fellow mutants. It was baseline humans who brought mutantkind to their knees, in death camps. I can understand her feelings. What have us humans done for Rachel's kind?I was expecting someone would remind me that Ray's loving, non-mutant grandparents (Grey) were killed in an anti-mutant riot in her timeline. As I said earlier, I do understand where she's coming from, but Rachel as an X-Man has to support their mission statement and their principles. Anti-mutant sentiments are increasing (I like how alive the discrimination metaphor is in these mid-80s stories), and the X-Men are all feeling it, but at the same time they have friends like Moira, so they have the example of peaceful coexistence right in their own home. It's something of a culture shock for Rachel, but she also thinks that the world is becoming more and more like her future (less tolerant). That's the very thing she came to the past to prevent.

I guess humanity as a whole has done very little good for mutants, but a few good individual human beings have helped and loved Rachel, scattered throughout her life.

And heroes like Iron Man and Captain America have died fighting the Sentinels as well, and have always been supporting of the X-Men.Agh! I can't believe I missed this awesome discussion! Great work, guys!

I like the idea of Rachel being so guilty that she wanted Wolvie to kill her. Maybe she even telepathically influenced his actions (consciously or unconsciously)? He was in pretty bad shape, so maybe his mental blocks weren't at full capacity or something. I wouldn't say she was controlling his mind necessarily, but maybe just a mental nudge?

Also, Rachel becoming Dark Phoenix is an idea I had never really considered. Very interesting indeed. I can definitely see why Rachel as Phoenix makes everyone so uncomfortable now. I always just thought she reminded everybody of their dead friend, but for whatever reason, the thought of the same thing happening to Rachel never really occurred to me before now. Again, great work.I was never certain if the absence of Jean's real body and mind in Dark Phoenix in the DPS might be the reason that Phoenix was able to destroy a solar system without thinking of the destruction she'd be causing. I like to think that if there's an actual (noble) person at the core of the Phoenix' power (and not just an essence, or a link from a cocoon on Earth), they have more control over that power, and will step back sooner. This is how I figure Rachel didn't go through with the destruction of the universe after Storm made her see what she was doing.

CJ Lentze

11-29-2008, 07:20 AM

I try to be careful about being overly-complimenting and enthusiastic about writers, artists, and stories, but I can't find many faults in issue 208 'Retribution', just a lot of really good stuff.

John Romita Jr.'s first page splash of Kitty Pryde is fantastic. I love the look in her eyes, and it showcases how cool her Shadowcat costume really is. I love the bitter exchange between Kitty and Wolvie as much as you did, david. "That's a word a friend uses. I don't think you qualify anymore." It can all be felt.

The consecutive panels of the impressions of thoughts (of the passers-by) Rachel is involuntarily receiving were interesting. Chris Claremont would sometimes overdo thought bubbles like the ones we see here, but now it's still relatively new. Like I said earlier, her contemplations in this issue are intense... I find it difficult to put my thoughts about it, down in words. Now that Wolvie has stabbed her it's been the actual 'push', she's sure that she isn't wanted anywhere. Feels useless, her whole life has been a bad trip. (But when she sees the remains of Selene's victims[not knowing one of them was a lowlife crook], she does feel responsible, and someone has to pay for it- if not Selene, then Wolvie. How she was able to attack Wolvie at long distance, I'm not sure.)
At the end, though, there's no doubt that the X-Men care for her, as they come for her (it's Rogue who saves her from Friedrich, Victor!), but Ray's main thought now is that she's tired, physically and mentally exhausted. So she's looking for a den to recuperate.
(I don't mean to summarise things everyone already knows, I just wanted to highlight a couple things).

Nimrod identifies twelve X-Men: the 7 actual X-Men and the members of X-Factor?

One panel I absolutely love in this issue: when it appears as though the Hellfire Club hold all the cards, but Storm remains calm. I love how Storm is whispering into her micro-communicator to mobilise Nightcrawler and Wolverine, and how she orders Rogue to target the Lords Cardinal instead. It's going to have an impressive result in the next issue (I HAVE to say it). To me, this issue and the next establish that Storm is an excellent strategist in the field, among her other fine leadership skills. She's come a long way since the battle at the Capitol building.

And the cliffhanger is sweet.

LOL, sorry for the longness of my posts. I'll try to keep 'em shorter from now on.

CallMeGeoff

11-29-2008, 11:38 AM

I have to add to the John Romita, Jr. praise. I love the guy's work, especially in these Uncanny X-Men issues. Those black-and-white pages that david r posted really show how much detail he put into every panel. And then with the colors on top of Romita's designs, the art has an unmistakable 1980s style, which is fun to look back on (the first page of 206 definitely comes to mind). I really love this era of X-Men. It also helps that when I first got into X-Men, the Romita issues were the ones being reprinted in X-Men Classic at the time, so they're some of the first vintage issues I ever saw. I've been hooked ever since.

Now, regarding issue 208, great characterization here. Kitty's anger at Logan, the team's regret for the way they handled the situation, Rachel's emotional dilemma...all of this helps make the team more realistic and human. These are people that try to make the right decisions, but it doesn't always work out for the best.

We also see more of the Hellfire Club and the X-Men fighting over the fate of Phoenix. Having read this issue again, I still can't believe I never saw the connections between this story and the Dark Phoenix Saga before. It's right in front of my stupid face! :) I'm just glad I've finally seen the light. Better late than never!

worstblogever

11-29-2008, 03:18 PM

One of the best issues of Claremont's run, for me. This, and the next. The continuation of Rachel & Logan, seeing Selene go right back to being evil, and the build towards the three way fight next issue? Wow!

Plus, look at the use of powers creatively in this issue. From Rachel using her telekinesis to bind her wounds, to throwing Logan in front of an oncoming train and Kitty having to phase him to save his life... and then Selene turning Friedrich Von Roehm, her Black Rook, into her own personal bloodhound with her powers? That's some creative use, for me.

Phenomenal job on this ish.

wolvie616

11-29-2008, 06:05 PM

i loved the way rachel tought no one loved her because she tried to kill selene

david r

11-29-2008, 06:51 PM

Limerick, Fredreich von Roehm doesn't seem like the fighter type. But it just shows the seductive power of Selene, that he becomes her slave. It reminded me of the Hound from Rachel's future, honestly. I really agree with you that this story is good. Really good. :smile:

Schuimend Mormel, Yes, this is a dark chapter in Rachel Summers' history. Very dark, indeed. It seems since she took the Phoenix mantle, her life has become complicated and darker.

I certainly see how this story is kind of disheartening to read- especially when you're rooting for her-, after surviving what she'd been through, then her self-appointed duty to redeem herself for her past and clear the name of Phoenix... But I think that Chris Claremont knew the readers could have been expecting a redemption of the Phoenix and a new rise to heroic glory: instead he tells the story of a girl who, through circumstance and insecurities, fails. It's another part of reality: heroes rise, heroes fall, and they don't always win. I have always liked that Rachel's first tenure on the X-Men is riddled with smaller and greater mistakes.

Very nice observation, Schuimend. I recall Chris Claremont stating once about writing the characters, he said "Always go against type." Always go in the direction the reader WOULDN'T expect. I bet most 1980s fans believed Rachel becoming Phoenix would usher in a stronger role for her on the team, and define who she is. Instead, it has alienated the X-Men from her, and this new power has screwed up her life. Rachel has become a full-blown crisis now. I wonder if she indeed, was thinking about suicide.

John Romita Jr.'s first page splash of Kitty Pryde is fantastic. I love the look in her eyes, and it showcases how cool her Shadowcat costume really is. I love the bitter exchange between Kitty and Wolvie as much as you did, david. "That's a word a friend uses. I don't think you qualify anymore." It can all be felt.

See below:

http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/pages/97792366288.208.P1.GIF

http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/pages/97792366288.208.P2.GIF

I felt sad when Kitty Pryde tells Logan NEVER to call her "pun'kin" again, in the page above.

http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/pages/97792366288.208.P3.GIF

david r

11-29-2008, 07:06 PM

The consecutive panels of the impressions of thoughts (of the passers-by) Rachel is involuntarily receiving were interesting. Chris Claremont would sometimes overdo thought bubbles like the ones we see here, but now it's still relatively new.

I liked that as well. The multiple word balloons show how maddening all those thoughts, from passerbys, must be for Rachel Summers. It was a very nice touch.

Nimrod identifies twelve X-Men: the 7 actual X-Men and the members of X-Factor?

I hadn't even caught that. On Page 16, Nimrod mentions TWELVE X-Men. Yes, I think you are right, Schuimend. If you count the seven X-Men in Central Park, along with the five members of X-Factor in Central Park (shown in X-Factor #8, ) you've got 12 X-Men. A nice job of coordinating their stories by Chris Claremont and Louise Simonson.

The use of John Lennon's Memorial Garden, Strawberry Fields, in Central Park was a nice touch. This book is so very New York-centric.

Also, I agree with you about Storm as a strategist. She's very good at seeing the whole battle, and how to win it. And Ororo NEVER shows any squeamish about standing before super-powered beings, when she herself is completely vulnerable and powerless. PS, I like the longness of your posts. Don't be embarrased by them. We're all X-lovers here! :smile:

CallMeGeoff, I must comment also: I LOVE Romita's closeups of Rogue and Storm's faces on Page 14. Expertly drawn; Romita does a great job at facial expressions here. These John Romita Jr. issues are quality stuff, and he gets better as he goes along. I agree with you totally. Also on the parallels with this story, and the classic Dark Phoenix tale. I had never thought of that before, but it seems obvious now. I like how intertwined the X-Men and Hellfire Club have become.

david r

11-30-2008, 07:17 AM

http://www.marvel.com/universe3zx/images/b/b2/Hellfire02.jpg

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/a/a2/Black_King_001.jpg

http://www.marvel.com/universe3zx/images/1/1e/Hellfire03.jpg

david r

11-30-2008, 03:28 PM

http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/97792366288.209.GIF

Uncanny X-Men #209

"Salvation"

The climactic showdown between X-Men and Lords of Hellfire....who do the unthinkable and team up to defeat the unstoppable Sentinel from the future-- Nimrod!! Two mutants die! One mutant makes a fateful decision that sends her on a weird, spiral journey! This is an all-battle issue, that action junkies will enjoy!

The place. Central Park. The time. Late at night. The X-Men and the Hellfire Club are assembled before a purple-hued Sentinel who hovers in the air above them. It is named Nimrod. And it desires all their deaths, for being mutants. Meanwhile, the cause of all this commotion, Rachel Summers, lays nearby in the grass and brush. Rachel is still bleeding, and she limps away, believing her teammates in the X-Men don't want her aid. Boy, is she wrong! This Nimrod is hard to stop, and it learns from it's previous encounter (in Uncanny X-Men #194). You cannot defeat it the same way twice. The 2 mutant factions continue to trade blows, but soon realize their true threat is Nimrod. Rogue and Sebastian Shaw spar, and Rogue grabs Shaw and hurls him towards Nimrod. Nimrod deflects Shaw and sends him racing into outer space! Storm requests a temporary truce, to stop the robot, before they are all eliminated by the Sentinel.

Friedrich von Roehm, turned into an obedient slave by Selene, attacks Storm. It is Wolverine who punches him away to protect his leader. Von Roehm turns to strike, but a power-blast from Nimrod cuts him down. Von Roehm is killed, a pile of "stuff" lying where his body once lay. (Is it organic material??). Colossus has been sunken far down into the earth, and Kitty Pryde phases down to locate him. Rachel Summers is slowly making her way through Central Park, when she hears beautiful music, and curiously goes to investigate. Rachel walks through a gate, and there before her are the brightly-lit, huge towers and spirals of the Body Shoppe. Rachel has seemingly walked out of Central Park, and entered another dimension. Spiral appears, but looking very different. Spiral's armor is gone, and she is clothed in a long, purple robe. Her long, white hair flowing freely, and her 6 arms hidden. Spiral asks Rachel if she'd like to become a "superior" person. And Rachel in her delirium, responds positively, and follows Spiral into the Body Shoppe.

The battle in Central Park rages on. Nightcrawler teleports to Nimrod, in an attempt to teleport a part of it's body away, thus leaving Nimrod disrupted. Storm replies no, that this ploy already was used (in #194) and Nimrod will be ready for it. Kurt teleports anyway, near Nimrod's arm. Nimrod is prepared for the assault, and reaches out. Nightcrawler screams!! In sheer agony and in a way none have ever heard before!! The scream is cut short, as Nightcrawler fades away. Storm stands with a terrified look on her face! Did Kurt teleport? Was he disintegrated? Blessed Goddess, what happened?! Meanwhile, Hellfire Club member Harry Leland uses his mutant power to drag Nimrod to the ground. Nimrod finally reaches the earth, as Harry suffers a heart attack and collapses! Nimrod is using sufficient level of it's energy to fight Leland's gravity powers, and this leaves Nimrod vulnerable. Colossus suddenly phases up from the floor, and crushes his hands into Nimrod's feet. Nimrod sees Colossus, and prepares to deal with the mutant. But then Nimrod's entire systems begin to spark and overload. Kitty Pryde was hiding within Colosus!! And unbeknownst to Nimrod, Shadowcat phased thru Colossus and right up thru the Sentinel. Disrupting and short-circuiting him! Nimrod not seeing her, was unprepared for the attack.

Colossus now grabs the weakened Nimrod and slams into the ground, several times. Selene then uses her power to rip wires and electrical lines from underneath the grass, to fasten Nimrod hard so it cannot escape. With Harry Leland's dying breath, he uses his gravity powers to bring Sebastian Shaw back to the earth. Shaw comes plummeting at an alarming rate, and land directly onto trapped Nimrod. Causing a HUGE EXPLOSION!! This leaves Nimrod is pieces. Wolverine stands above him to start slicing him apart further, but then the Sentinel teleports away. NIMROD ESCAPED!! Tessa, wearing a clothe over her lower face in a weird disguise, advices them all to find safety in the Hellfire Club. Meanwhile, back at the Body Shoppe, Rachel sees several different mirror images of herself. She joyfully follows Spiral up a twisting path, further into this maze of a place. Rachel says farewell to her X-Men friends, and enters a light. Spiral springs out her 6 arms, in victory over the young Phoenix.

My thoughts: A cool battle-heavy issue, with X-Men & Hellfire Club creating an alliance. I don't see it lasting long, but they did well together. Harry Leland's heart attack and death was well-done, and you felt a little sad for him. (Not so sad for Von Roehm.) Nimrod was a pretty imposing villain. His "shark-like" eyes sound pretty scary and formidable. I'm sure we've not seen the last of him. I found the way Nimrod was defeated highly inventive and clever. Kitty, Colossus, Harry and Sebastian all combining to destroy the "unstoppable" Sentinel from the future was expertly plotted and deviced by Mr. Claremont. Bravo, Claremont. However, I did not find John Romita Jr.'s artwork in #209 as polished as the previous installment. It looked rushed, and he had a finisher on it. It was still pretty good. In closing, the outcome with Phoenix was more than a little unnerving. I think young Rachel is in a heap of trouble, within the Body Shoppe. That whole passage was eerie, and chilling.

Joe Acro

11-30-2008, 06:58 PM

Yes! I love this fight. It shows just how difficult Nimrod can be to defeat, and that you should never count people out of the fight unless they're dead. And Kitty and Colossus aren't the ones that normally form the battle strategies! A nice showing by them.

In the end, the good guys win, and a really cool possible villain escapes!

I must confess, though, I got a little confused with the Body Shoppe portion. It seems out of place amidst everything else.

creaky

11-30-2008, 11:37 PM

Nightcrawler thoughts:
Honestly, there's not much to say, yet. Kurt got zapped by making a stupid, rash move. It might sound like wishful thinking to go and assume that this is indicative of a nervous breakdown on his part, but given the chain of crap that's been hitting him for some time now and his "newfound confidence" that was introduced with #204 - complete with ominous foreshadowing - PLUS his usually pretty good resume of keeping his head cool in tight situations, I think it makes sense. He's simply at this point so subconsciously desperate to prove himself that it's taken over common sense. Perhaps even subconsciously suicidal, but I believe that less. Storm - one of the people he respects the most - even warned him, gave a perfectly good reason for why this was a bad idea and he didn't listen.

creaky

12-01-2008, 01:41 AM

I'd like to see creaky's thoughts on Wolverine's actions in this issue..

I should apparently do searches on my screen name more often. I completely missed this, sorry.

I'm not sure I have anything interesting to add, though. You guys pretty much said it all and I just sat back and enjoyed reading your responses. I think I'm going with the Dark Phoenix theory - Logan didn't want Jean II to happen. That's the only acceptable reason I can think of, but Logan didn't outright state that as the reason, which is strange. I'm sure he would have been looked upon more kindly by the other X-men if he had. On the other hand, it might just be in his nature to not want to explain himself because he doesn't figure it will do any good? Maybe he accepted Kitty's verbal beating because he felt he deserved it?

It was pretty gut-wrenching to read. This era is what made me really love Rachel, because she's so desperate and her situation is so strange. She's almost the complete opposite of Jean - she has better control of the Phoenix, but she keeps failing and she keeps alienating those she wants to help. She's almost chaos personified in her desire to put things into order.

Being a Nightcrawler fangirl, what I zoned in on the most was the contrast between Kurt's and Kitty's reactions towards Logan. It's strange just how much faith Kurt has in him. Logan has, as far as they know, probably killed a friend of theirs, violating pretty much every one of Kurt's principles. Kitty's reaction seems the most reasonable one, the one most of us would have, but Kurt just lets him know that he's angry, without condemning or judging. Storm's understanding is not surprising given her circumstances and recent journey at this point, but the Kurt/Logan relationship is in many ways, to this day, still a bit of a riddle to me.

worstblogever

12-01-2008, 03:06 AM

Uncanny #209 has some of the best team-ups and power combinations you'll ever see. From Leland using Shaw's power to its fullest, to seeing Kitty and Colossus use a unique strategy for getting the drop on an opponent, it's just awesome.

The Harry Leland death scene? You feel bad for the fat dude who tried to take advantage of a brainwashed Jean Grey, and see him die, of all things, a hero.

The truce between the X-Men and the Hellfire Club? That certainly is something else to give pause, isn't it? They're headed back there to get off the streets, but... will something bud from their sudden team-up?

And presumably, Emma Frost is still up at the Massachusetts Academy during all this fuss, what would her feelings be about the death of Leland A man who in Generation X: Minus One, is revealed to have been one of the first to attempt to recruit Emma Frost into the Hellfire Club.

The mysterious future for Rachel, to boot, and Spiral working an angle, only add to the greatness of this issue. Again, one of my all-time favorites.

Imraith Nimphais

12-01-2008, 11:46 AM

Very nice observation, Schuimend. I recall Chris Claremont stating once about writing the characters, he said "Always go against type." Always go in the direction the reader WOULDN'T expect. I bet most 1980s fans believed Rachel becoming Phoenix would usher in a stronger role for her on the team, and define who she is. Instead, it has alienated the X-Men from her, and this new power has screwed up her life. Rachel has become a full-blown crisis now. I wonder if she indeed, was thinking about suicide

Quite true David and Schuimend...although I was hoping for the better, as you pointed out SM, CC loves a tragedy...(and so do I, actually, quite!)...and really, Rachel's story is indeed tragic...that said, I immensely enjoyed every part of this last arc...it struck me on so many different emotional levels. ..you have to give the guy credit for knowing how to tell an emotionally wrought tale...from Rachel's heart-rending (literally) misery, the tense truce of the X-men and HC working together to defeat Nimrod, the sheer awesomeness Storm commanding the battle (YAY!:biggrin: )), :to Leland's ultimate, heroic sacrifice...and to top it off...:biggrin: SELENE! in all her w'ked, beauty-full splendour.:biggrin:

david r

12-01-2008, 07:56 PM

Creaky, No, I don't think Nightcrawler is suicidal. I believe Kurt just made a bad tactical move, and the result was pretty horrifying! (The look of disbelief on Storm's face says it all.) Kurt's going through a lot, but he seemed pretty chipper at the conclusion of UXM #206.

I like the Kurt/Logan relationship. Though it's a riddle for me too. Maybe Logan senses that Kurt needs friendship, though Logan isn't usually very sensitive to other people's feelings. I'm not sure if someone mentioned it here, but could the moment Wolverine stabs Rachel Summers be the moment Logan becomes the conscience of the team?

WBE, I like how you describe #209 as "some of the best team-ups and power combinations you'll ever see." I couldn't agree more; it was a clever use of all the mutants involved. I also wonder if this issue is called "Salvation" because the good & bad mutants find salvation, by working together. Otherwise, they might have died. Is it a harbinger for future cooperation?

Imraith Nimphais, I'm glad someone pointed out Storm's tactical leadership. Ororo did a fabulous job coordinating both her teammates, and the Hellfire Club. Even though 2 members perished (and maybe 3 with Kurt Wagner), I think Ororo performed well under tense circumstances.

Quickly, anyone thought it was strange seeing Nimrod's display of emotion in #208? When he was talking to that teenage kid about his homework. Is this Sentinel from the future have emotions? This is a curious point that makes me wonder more about this Nimrod.

david r

12-01-2008, 07:58 PM

At this point, in 1986, Marvel Comics launched a new series reprinting classic X-stories. It was called Classic X-Men. Starting with Giant-Size X-Men #1 in 1975, it chronicled the "new X-Men" of the 70s. Issue by issue. It was a great way for newer fans to catch up on the past, while also getting new back-stories written by Chris Claremont and drawn by John Bolton. This title was extremely succesful and lasted well into the 160s and 170s of UXM.

http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/17292128602.1.GIF

http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/17292128602.2.GIF

http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/17292128602.5.GIF

david r

12-01-2008, 08:01 PM

http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/17292128602.6.GIF

http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/17292128602.8.GIF

http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/17292128602.14.GIF

http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/17292128602.15.GIF

CallMeGeoff

12-01-2008, 10:25 PM

For anyone who's interested in learning more about Wolverine's relationship with Rachel (and his reasons for stabbing her in 207):

Uncanny X-Men Annual # 14 (1990) has a back-up story by Claremont in which Rachel confronts Logan about stabbing her. He tells her that he saw her mother corrupted, and that it would be better for her to die than to go down that road. She is still angry, but they seem to come to an understanding. She even goes so far as to say that Wolverine surprisingly ended up becoming the conscience of the team. They depart as friends again (yay!)

I know we'll get to all that eventually, but it's so far away, and I figured somebody might want to read it as a sort of companion to the 207-209 arc.

worstblogever

12-01-2008, 10:47 PM

WBE, I like how you describe #209 as "some of the best team-ups and power combinations you'll ever see." I couldn't agree more; it was a clever use of all the mutants involved. I also wonder if this issue is called "Salvation" because the good & bad mutants find salvation, by working together. Otherwise, they might have died. Is it a harbinger for future cooperation?

Oh, I'd say There's certainly some sort of an accord. Keep an eye on Storm, and current headmaster, Magneto. Especially in pages of New Mutants.

Mitteloss

12-02-2008, 05:13 AM

At this point, in 1986, Marvel Comics launched a new series reprinting classic X-stories. It was called Classic X-Men. Starting with Giant-Size X-Men #1 in 1975, it chronicled the "new X-Men" of the 70s. Issue by issue. It was a great way for newer fans to catch up on the past, while also getting new back-stories written by Chris Claremont and drawn by John Bolton. This title was extremely succesful and lasted well into the 160s and 170s of UXM.

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/17292128602.1.GIF

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/17292128602.5.GIF

Wow... Polaris looks so amazing on that cover stood in the background wearing her original costume. And Havok looks awesome on that third cover, particularly his powers/energy signature.

Imraith Nimphais

12-02-2008, 12:48 PM

I bought the "Classic" series specifically for the AWE-some-itude of Art Adams' art.

Falconen

12-02-2008, 02:58 PM

I bought the Classic series also, but more for the back up stories. I loved the John Bolton art when the series started. The stories were very good at "filling in the blanks" and adding more coherency to some of the retcons that they did. The whole Phoenix Entity thing comes to mind. I think my favorite back up story was the one with Misty Knight and Jean. Jean went to go save a family, and Misty hesitantly agreed to help, only to find that the family that Jean wanted to save were a pod of Dolphins. Nice twist.

wolvie616

12-02-2008, 05:58 PM

x men classic art is so great

also, i never thought nimrod was that strong! glad to see how bamf he is finally

david r

12-02-2008, 07:56 PM

worstblogever

12-03-2008, 02:00 AM

So.....Rachel Summers leaves X-MEN for her own Phoenix limited series. Which is mentioned in the letters page of UXM #208. As we know, this series NEVER came out in 1986. Or ever. It was to be written by Chris Claremont and drawn by Rick Leonardi.

Does anyone know why it didn't happen? Wasn't artwork posted around here somewhere from it? And please, please, PLEASE tell me the Spiral/Rachel cliffhanger is explained eventually. :redface:

Explained? Only partially. As can be seen in Excalibur: The Sword is Drawn, Rachel escaped from the Mojoverse after many months. The horrors she had to endure have only been hinted at, but never shown or explained. As stated, the limited series or Graphic Novel was planned to deal with her time in the hands of Spiral and Mojo was planned, but never saw print.

askani777

12-03-2008, 09:04 AM

ExodusCloak

12-03-2008, 09:19 AM

i know that in the classic x-men reprints they changed some text and added some images. but, did they take out anything in the process, or just expand on the early stuff? has anyone read both side by side? it would be interesting if the edited reprints left out parts of the comic that went nowhere, or for some other reason cc or the editors didnt like.

also at some point didnt classic x-men become straight reprints, without changes to the story or even a backup story?

They did, there were a few things with Storm. IRRC there was a scene where Storm originally zapped herself and the others with lightning in order to change their clothes. A page was added where she flew to the mansion and picked up the clothes from the drawers. Another scene where she summoned some Gale Force 12 wind in space that was changed to lightning and she needed a jet back to fly in space as her powers couldn't help her.

Darkchylde

12-03-2008, 11:09 AM

They did, there were a few things with Storm. IRRC there was a scene where Storm originally zapped herself and the others with lightning in order to change their clothes. A page was added where she flew to the mansion and picked up the clothes from the drawers. Another scene where she summoned some Gale Force 12 wind in space that was changed to lightning and she needed a jet back to fly in space as her powers couldn't help her.

Yes, and don't forget the Phoenix Saga when Jean saves the universe by healing the M'Krann crystal. In the original version, Jean transforms into a large firebird, engulfing the crystal, the planet, and the entire solar system; later, she is shown with the team safe and sound.

HOWEVER, in the Classic X-Men story, the scene where Jean transforms into the firebird is expanded upon. Jean, now in the crystal, envisions the team as the Tree of Life (and it is vaguely shown, with each X-Men as a different branch, and not merely implied like in the original story) and encounters a portent of the future: Dark Phoenix, described in the CXM story as a vision of things to come. Jean blasts the image away, crying out that she denies the monster and casts her out, that Jean will never be her, blah blah blah. Then, it's all done, and the team is returned home.

I remember reading this version before reading the original story and realizing that this scene was never part of the original. That's when I knew that it was an add-in to the CXM stories.

david r

12-03-2008, 08:50 PM

Worstblogever, Thanks for that explanation. It seems the Phoenix mini did happen, in continuity. But we will never know the tale. :frown:

I also know that the first issue of Classic X-Men shortened GSXM #1, in order to include more backstory. I've read fans in 1986 were not amused with whole pages excised from the new X-Men's Krakoa adventure. So Marvel didn't do this again. .

@Askani777, Yes, eventually the book became a straight reprint. Without backstories. But not before a long stretch of Chris Claremont tales. And then Ann Nocenti wrote several. I think even Tom Orzechowski got to write one!!

My favorite Classic X-Men backstories would be:

1) The Gift: Nightcrawler's late night story meeting a lonely boy, in a quiet hospital. While Phoenix fights for her life (following UXM #101.) This is some of Claremont's best writing IMO.

2) Monsters: A story where Wolverine and Jean Grey fight slimy creatures in a large building. The chemistry and heat between them is unmistakable.

3) Magneto's Past: I don't recall the name, but a CX backstory that illuminates Magneto's dark history, where he falls in love with a woman. And then his usual nightmares come to destroy his peace.

4) The Big Dare: I liked the story where Wolvie challenges Kurt to walk down a city street, without the protection of his Image Inducer. Nighty takes him up on it, and finally decides to abandon it altogether. People must respect him.....for the way he is.

Motherland: The story where Peter Rasputin returns to Russia and visits his family (including a young Illyana Rasputin. ) His shame at being away from the Motherland is a sensitive story.

david r

12-03-2008, 09:14 PM

Here are unpublished pages from the Phoenix mini series:

http://Images.comicartfans.com/Images/Category_5647/subcat_12823/phoenix%201%20p1%20publish.jpg

http://Images.comicartfans.com/Images/Category_5647/subcat_12823/phoenix%201%20p4%20publish.jpg

http://Images.comicartfans.com/Images/Category_5647/subcat_12823/phoenix%20p5%20publish.jpg

david r

12-03-2008, 09:26 PM

Franklin Richards was to play a role in the aborted Phoenix mini. And Rachel's relationship with him. Also, is this the Shadow King?

http://images.comicartfans.com/Images/Category_5647/subcat_34543/phoenix%201%20p5-6%20dps%20publish.jpg

worstblogever

12-04-2008, 01:24 AM

Franklin Richards was to play a role in the aborted Phoenix mini. And Rachel's relationship with him. Also, is this the Shadow King?

http://comicartfans.com/Images/Category_5647/subcat_34543/phoenix%201%20p5-6%20dps%20publish.jpg

You'd think it would be Ahab (Rory Campbell), but that does resemble a lot of the previous images of Farouk.

Imraith Nimphais

12-04-2008, 09:50 AM

This NEEDS to be published as in...RIGHT THIS VERY INSTANT!...I love Leonardi's work.

Home made ectoplasm

12-04-2008, 09:52 AM

This NEEDS to be published as in...RIGHT THIS VERY INSTANT!...I love Leonardi's work.

I don't think it was ever finished. I believe Leonardi has said that the pages we have seen are all that exist.

Imraith Nimphais

12-04-2008, 09:55 AM

...Bollocks!...this would have been such a bloody classic!...do yeh know why it was never completed?...David? Anyone?

CallMeGeoff

12-04-2008, 11:35 AM

That art is great. It would be cool if they could finish it and get it released. Wasn't there another series by Claremont and Leonardi that was abandoned and then finished years later? It came out several years ago, I think. True Friends or something?

Also, worstblogever:
Didn't the Shadow King have something to do with the Hounds in the story where Gambit is introduced? It's been a while since I've read it, so my memory is a little fuzzy, but I seem to remember Hounds in those spiky costumes in that story.

david r

12-04-2008, 07:56 PM

david r

12-04-2008, 08:06 PM

http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/97792366288.210.GIF

Uncanny X-Men #210

"The Morning After"

1st appearance: Malice

Another classic cover; though it doesn't make many people's Top Ten Favorite Covers lists. I'm sure Dirty Harry would be proud! UXM #210 nicely wraps up the events with Nimrod & the Hellfire Club. As well as a guest appearance by the mysterious X-Factor, who all look so very familiar to these pages! :rolleyes: Several story threads are weaved here, all with much interest from me. And the whereabouts of Nightcrawler is revealed. Poor guy.

The issue begins with a new mutant named Tommy being chased by a group of shadowy figures, across a railway yard in Los Angeles. This group seem to desire the murder of mutants, and Tommy barely escapes. But her fellow friend, Richard, gets blasted and shot by them. Meanwhile, another member of this mystery group pays a visit to Dazzler. Alison Blaire is a back-up singer for Lila Cheney. And she helps the roadies pack Lila's gear. Alison isn't much interested in partying, and as she washes her face in a bathroom, *another face* appears in her mirror and says, "I'm MALICE, Alison. I'm you--the REAL you--the STAR!" This Malice reaches out of the mirror, in a striking resemblance to Dazzler herself. Dazzler falls backward and unleashes with her light-power. When the light dissipates, Malice is gone. And Alison is alone.

Meanwhile, southern gal Rogue is flying over Manhattan, searching for their lost teammates, Phoenix. It's the morning after their battle with Nimrod and the Hellfire Club in Central Park (recounted in Uncanny X-Men #208-209) and both Nightcrawler and Rachel Summers are among the missing. Hellfire Club members Harry Leland and Friedrich Von Roehm are dead. Rogue sees her reflection in a glass building, and heads to a department store to get some make-up and new, fashionable clothes. It's all very cute, and reminds me of stuff from the 1960s X-Men era. However, a crowd of human onlookers realize Rogue is a mutant and confront her. As Rogue leaves the store, she spies an X-Factor advertisement on a bus. Back at Xavier's Mansion, Peter Rasputin and Illyana Rasputin have some quiet time together. Illyana is looking over drawings and sketches made by her brother. One is of Kitty. Kitty herself is working on Cerebro, and using her scientific expertise, rigs it so anyone can use Cerebro to locate mutants, worldwide. And not just psi-sensitives. The reader sees the Cerebro unit hidden by movable walls in Magneto's office.

The new Headmaster himself, Magneto, arrives in Manhattan. He dons a suit-and-tie and notices the mystery group X-Factor, standing near Central Park. As Magneto watches, he realizes X-Factor are really the Original X-Men!! With Madelyne Pryor taking Jean Grey's part. In an amusing bit, Magneto thinks to himself "How could they have so betrayed their heritage, Xavier's ideals?" (Scott Summers is thinking the same thing, watching Magneto enter the Hellfire Club, recounted over in X-Factor #9. ) Magneto meets the Lords Cardinal, the Inner Circle. Sebastian Shaw, Selene and Tessa speak with him in the dungeons below the Mansion. Sebastian Shaw lays his case out: Better for the X-Men and Hellfire Club to join up. Join forces against growing anti-mutant feelings in the human world. Magneto is highly skeptical. Shaw offers Magneto the White King position. The next chapter reveals the whereabouts of wounded Kurt Wagner. Nightcrawler has been discovered in a derelict Hudson River warehouse, by a mob of humans. In a scene similiar to one found in Giant-Size X-Men #1, Kurt is chased by the rowdy mob, but this time, Kitty Pryde, Illyana and Colossus teleport to his rescue. (Magik does the teleporting!) Shadowcat confronts the unruly humans, and shouts them down. Her words hit home, and the humans depart. Much to Kitty's relief. However, the bruised and wounded Nightcrawler, looking at the floor and dispirited, says he can no longer teleport!!!

The issue ends with Wolverine and Storm giving up on the search for Rachel Summers. Her scent disappears in the Delacorte Theatre. Storm speaks to Logan about his stabbing of young Rachel. Ororo doesn't question his decision, but needs him to be more of a team player. And she needs his trust, and obedience, in the future. Logan agrees, and holds Ororo's hand. The last two pages show the mutant Tommy finding her way to the Morlocks tunnels below New York. Unfortunately, the Marauders have followed her. And blast her to death. They used her to take them to these tunnels, and the Massacre begins!!

My thoughts: This seems a transitional issue. With several plot threads begin and ending. I was glad that Rogue got to shine a bit, and showed her having a bit of fun in the department store. The Hellfire Club intrigue with Magneto was surprising, and not at all foreseen. Who could possibly trust them? It was amusing for the Original X-Men to make cameos in the very book they launched, but nobody recognizes them as X-Factor except their hated enemy, Mags. The small moment with Piotr and Illyana was cute. And poor Nightcrawler attacked by humans. It seems 'crawler takes one step forward. And two steps back. Oh, and a "Massacre" is promised for next issue. I think something big and important is around the corner!

CallMeGeoff

12-04-2008, 09:25 PM

Yes, Chris Claremont and Rick Leonardi were working on an Excalibur Special Edition titled True Friends, in 1991. Claremont quit Marvel (or got fired) and True Friends was left unfinished. Until 1999. CC was back with Marvel and he got Leonardi to finish the artwork. And thus, X-Men: True Friends saw the light of day.

It happened once, maybe one day it'll happen again!

When reading 210 again, I was reminded of a question that I've always had. In Giant-Size X-Men #1, when Nightcrawler is being chased by the mob, is it ever revealed why he didn't teleport away? I'm assuming he was too tired and weak or something, but is there ever an issue that explains it? I've always wondered.

As far as the issue itself goes, it is very much a bridge between two stories. The scenes with Rogue are great. I feel like Kitty is being a little harsh on Rachel, blaming her for abandoning the team. The girl has three severe puncture wounds in her chest, could very easily be dead for all they know, and Kitty is mad that she didn't help the team in battle? Perhaps she's really angry at herself for allowing the situation with Rachel to get so bad, and she doesn't want to admit it? She does a great job standing up to Nightcrawler's attackers, though.

And finally, I find it a little hard to believe that anyone (even Magneto) would believe that the original X-Men would sell out their own species. And I would think that as soon as he tells any of the current X-Men, they would try to contact one of the originals and ask what the heck it is they think they're doing. Maybe the coming events keep them too distracted.

david r

12-05-2008, 08:54 AM

Good morning. First, are the Power Pack issues essential in reading the Mutant Massacre? To those who have read them?

CallMeGeoff, Marvel EIC Joe Quesada was asked about the Phoenix mini, and whether it could ever be revived. Joe was only dimly aware of the book, but expressed zero confidence we would see it finished. :frown:

As for Nightcrawler teleporting in GSXM #1, it has never been explained. (I'd never thought of that, actually.) My No-Prize answer is Kurt had teleported, several times already, but each time the rowdy mob of European villagers found him. Finally, Kurt was too exhausted and worn down to continue teleporting. And that is where we readers, and Professor Charles Xavier, meet up with 'crawler in that seminal issue. Does that make any sense. :smile:

Geoff, I think you pointed out an error in UXM #210. Why *wouldn't* Magneto inform the X-Men of X-Factor's true identity?? !! Of course, he would! My No-Prize answer is Magneto makes a personal decision not to tell the new X-Men about X-Factor. Magneto presumably wants better relations with the Original X-Men (since they all still despise him!:redface: ) and keeping their true identities to himself would circumvent a confrontation between the 2 teams....which he might be blamed for.

CallMeGeoff

12-05-2008, 09:18 AM

Two No-Prizes for David! :smile:

Bummer about the Phoenix mini. At least I got to see the art that was done for it, though. Good stuff.

I wouldn't say the Power Pack tie-in is essential, but it helps, and it's not bad. I believe it's a lot more relevant to X-Factor than X-Men, though. I think Wolvie is the only X-Man that shows up, and then only briefly.

Joe Acro

12-05-2008, 11:24 AM

The mini was to explore Rachel Summers' relationship with Franklin Richards, who we find out were more than friends. :wink:
Didn't we already know that those two were a couple during Days of Future Past?

CJ Lentze

12-06-2008, 06:20 AM

In the end, the good guys winWhat did the good guys win, exactly? Nimrod teleported away, just like he did when they first battled him, and they had lost Nightcrawler and Phoenix, with deadly casualties for their 'allies' of the HFC. Not to mention the X-Men have to recover at Bad Guys' Lair. They gave it their best, but Nimrod has run and is still out there, probably having absorbed what he learned about their strategy during the battle.I should apparently do searches on my screen name more often. I completely missed this, sorry.And I now understand the purpose of bolding a user name in a large paragraph.

'Chaos personified (in her desire to put things into order)', that's a great description of Rachel. She has so little to hold onto in the first place; but maybe she has difficulty coping with the mistakes she makes? She freaks the moment something she thinks she has gets taken from her, because that's happened to her so many times before. Plus she keeps beating herself up for a number of reasons. She can't create the order she wants, because she must have confidence in herself first so there can be order within her, and she thinks she's too rotten to build from that foundation; setting herself up to fail, perhaps.Uncanny #209 has some of the best team-ups and power combinations you'll ever see. From Leland using Shaw's power to its fullest, to seeing Kitty and Colossus use a unique strategy for getting the drop on an opponent, it's just awesome.

The Harry Leland death scene? You feel bad for the fat dude who tried to take advantage of a brainwashed Jean Grey, and see him die, of all things, a hero.
(...)
The mysterious future for Rachel, to boot, and Spiral working an angle, only add to the greatness of this issue. Again, one of my all-time favorites.Co-signed and co-signed. The battle was intense. Quite true David and Schuimend...although I was hoping for the better, as you pointed out SM, CC loves a tragedy...(and so do I, actually, quite!)...and really, Rachel's story is indeed tragic...that said, I immensely enjoyed every part of this last arc...it struck me on so many different emotional levels. ..you have to give the guy credit for knowing how to tell an emotionally wrought tale...from Rachel's heart-rending (literally) misery, the tense truce of the X-men and HC working together to defeat Nimrod, the sheer awesomeness Storm commanding the battle (YAY!:biggrin: )), :to Leland's ultimate, heroic sacrifice...and to top it off...:biggrin: SELENE! in all her w'ked, beauty-full splendour.:biggrin:
It seems to me that Chris is one of those writers who puts everything he sees in real, personal life plus what he reads about in papers, books, and magazines, into the comic books he writes. Many comic book writers have this quality, but I think that Claremont was ideal for X-Men at the time, because he put so many different themes into it, while also juggling all the different members of the team. He dropped some of the storylines he was writing, but that's easily forgiven.

david, I don't think Claremont meant for Rachel to be suicidal in the 'general' sense of the word, but whether between the lines or even when it's written in her thought bubbles that maybe releasing her wound plugs, or that not having existed would have been better, he is not just writing about a heroine who comes from a dystopian future, he's also writing about the circumstances and train of thought that may lead a (younger) person to step over that edge. Though there wasn't an entire issue or page focusing on Rachel having that thought, she was teetering on the brink once or twice. I think Claremont was very conscious of this when he wrote the stories, writing about a superhero and a teenager who was having this thought (it's usually background characters who are used as examples like that, here it's a main one).

Rachel making her exit like this - which wasn't really an exit if we consider the Phoenix Limited that was planned to be released soon (but never was) and Excalibur, but david'll cover that later - it's like a fizzle after a blaze. I'd also say that issue 200-ish or 202 was the turning point and the center point in Ray's first X-Men tenure, where she peaked after an upward climb, then it was all downhill from there. If we don't count Thunderbird, this was the shortest time for an X-Man to be on the team yet; barely 20 issues. Short but (bitter)sweet, imo.Quickly, anyone thought it was strange seeing Nimrod's display of emotion in #208? When he was talking to that teenage kid about his homework. Is this Sentinel from the future have emotions? This is a curious point that makes me wonder more about this Nimrod.Yes, I was wondering about/fascinated by Nimrod developing feelings for the Rodrigueses myself. It's a theme that we see pop up a lot in sci-fi, take the Vision in The Avengers for example. And Nimrod is among the most sophisticated a.i.'s from about 30 years into the future; at first I thought it was not too credible even for comic book standards, but I now like the idea that his super computer 'mind' is developing an awareness of morality and related things, where Sentinels have always been the X-Men foes with no concept of morality, which is the other thing that made them so dangerous (the first being their anti-mutant weaponry).

CJ Lentze

12-06-2008, 06:22 AM

Didn't we already know that those two were a couple during Days of Future Past?Acro's right. DoFP refers to Rachel as 'Franklin's lady' and Rachel calls him 'her man'.

worstblogever

12-06-2008, 06:36 AM

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/97792366288.210.GIF

Uncanny X-Men #210

"The Morning After"

1st appearance: Malice

Another classic cover; though it doesn't make many people's Top Ten Favorite Covers lists. I'm sure Dirty Harry would be proud! UXM #210 nicely wraps up the events with Nimrod & the Hellfire Club. As well as a guest appearance by the mysterious X-Factor, who all look so very familiar to these pages! :rolleyes: Several story threads are weaved here, all with much interest from me. And the whereabouts of Nightcrawler is revealed. Poor guy.

The issue begins with a new mutant named Tommy being chased by a group of shadowy figures, across a railway yard in Los Angeles. This group seem to desire the murder of mutants, and Tommy barely escapes. But her fellow friend, Richard, gets blasted and shot by them. Meanwhile, another member of this mystery group pays a visit to Dazzler. Alison Blaire is a back-up singer for Lila Cheney. And she helps the roadies pack Lila's gear. Alison isn't much interested in partying, and as she washes her face in a bathroom, *another face* appears in her mirror and says, "I'm MALICE, Alison. I'm you--the REAL you--the STAR!" This Malice reaches out of the mirror, in a striking resemblance to Dazzler herself. Dazzler falls backward and unleashes with her light-power. When the light dissipates, Malice is gone. And Alison is alone.

Meanwhile, southern gal Rogue is flying over Manhattan, searching for their lost teammates, Phoenix. It's the morning after their battle with Nimrod and the Hellfire Club in Central Park (recounted in Uncanny X-Men #208-209) and both Nightcrawler and Rachel Summers are among the missing. Hellfire Club members Harry Leland and Friedrich Von Roehm are dead. Rogue sees her reflection in a glass building, and heads to a department store to get some make-up and new, fashionable clothes. It's all very cute, and reminds me of stuff from the 1960s X-Men era. However, a crowd of human onlookers realize Rogue is a mutant and confront her. As Rogue leaves the store, she spies an X-Factor advertisement on a bus. Back at Xavier's Mansion, Peter Rasputin and Illyana Rasputin have some quiet time together. Illyana is looking over drawings and sketches made by her brother. One is of Kitty. Kitty herself is working on Cerebro, and using her scientific expertise, rigs it so anyone can use Cerebro to locate mutants, worldwide. And not just psi-sensitives. The reader sees the Cerebro unit hidden by movable walls in Magneto's office.

The new Headmaster himself, Magneto, arrives in Manhattan. He dons a suit-and-tie and notices the mystery group X-Factor, standing near Central Park. As Magneto watches, he realizes X-Factor are really the Original X-Men!! With Madelyne Pryor taking Jean Grey's part. In an amusing bit, Magneto thinks to himself "How could they have so betrayed their heritage, Xavier's ideals?" (Scott Summers is thinking the same thing, watching Magneto enter the Hellfire Club, recounted over in X-Factor #9. ) Magneto meets the Lords Cardinal, the Inner Circle. Sebastian Shaw, Selene and Tessa speak with him in the dungeons below the Mansion. Sebastian Shaw lays his case out: Better for the X-Men and Hellfire Club to join up. Join forces against growing anti-mutant feelings in the human world. Magneto is highly skeptical. Shaw offers Magneto the White King position. The next chapter reveals the whereabouts of wounded Kurt Wagner. Nightcrawler has been discovered in a derelict Hudson River warehouse, by a mob of humans. In a scene similiar to one found in Giant-Size X-Men #1, Kurt is chased by the rowdy mob, but this time, Kitty Pryde, Illyana and Colossus teleport to his rescue. (Magik does the teleporting!) Shadowcat confronts the unruly humans, and shouts them down. Her words hit home, and the humans depart. Much to Kitty's relief. However, the bruised and wounded Nightcrawler, looking at the floor and dispirited, says he can no longer teleport!!!

The issue ends with Wolverine and Storm giving up on the search for Rachel Summers. Her scent disappears in the Delacorte Theatre. Storm speaks to Logan about his stabbing of young Rachel. Ororo doesn't question his decision, but needs him to be more of a team player. And she needs his trust, and obedience, in the future. Logan agrees, and holds Ororo's hand. The last two pages show the mutant Tommy finding her way to the Morlocks tunnels below New York. Unfortunately, the Marauders have followed her. And blast her to death. They used her to take them to these tunnels, and the Massacre begins!!

My thoughts: This seems a transitional issue. With several plot threads begin and ending. I was glad that Rogue got to shine a bit, and showed her having a bit of fun in the department store. The Hellfire Club intrigue with Magneto was surprising, and not at all foreseen. Who could possibly trust them? It was amusing for the Original X-Men to make cameos in the very book they launched, but nobody recognizes them as X-Factor except their hated enemy, Mags. The small moment with Piotr and Illyana was cute. And poor Nightcrawler attacked by humans. It seems 'crawler takes one step forward. And two steps back. Oh, and a "Massacre" is promised for next issue. I think something big and important is around the corner!

Alas, poor two-dimensional Tommy. We never got to know ye, or your star-crossed lover Richard. How does a Morlock end up catching the eye of an estranged Hellfire Club guard?

And, Magneto is offered the position of White King? But will he take it? Would he be consumed by the politics and machinations of the Hellfire Club, while running Xavier's school?

Nightcrawler is seriously boned. But not totally. I mean, he's still hyper agile, can stick to walls, and has a prehensile tail. He's not useless, at least.

The Dazzler sub-plot is intriguing, no? What happened to Ali, and what bearing does it have on the rest of our story?

And in the midst of this... Rogue updates her wardrobe? Well, I guess we all grieve for the fat-tastic Harry Leland in our own way, Roguey.

Joe Acro

12-06-2008, 06:38 AM

What did the good guys win, exactly?
They got Nimrod to flee. Thus, they won the battle.

Not a smooth or long-term win by any means, but I think it still counts.

worstblogever

12-06-2008, 06:41 AM

CJ Lentze

12-06-2008, 07:10 AM

Maybe issue 210 was a transitional issue, but it's like Geoff says it's a bridge to end a chapter and start the next (the grim 'n' gritty era for X-Men and comics in general). And for a transitional issue, it was a great one. Plenty of sweet stuff, from the semi-romantic/pining and sighs and woes ("In truth, I never stopped [loving Kitty]") -Oh, Piotr-, to the monthly dip into the theme of prejudice and discrimination, Piotr, Kitty, and Illyana coming to Kurt's rescue was fantastic, both Piotr's attempt at reasoning with the angry mob and Kitty telling it to them straight, confronting them with how beastly they were behaving (like Geoff said).

And yes, Rogue's rescue of the workers fits into all this nicely, I must repeat that I always like seeing someone who was rescued by an X-Man and then stick up for our merry mutants when they're in a little pickle. This issue would probably be a(nother) good introduction story for new readers. And in the midst of this... Rogue updates her wardrobe? Well, I guess we all grieve for the fat-tastic Harry Leland in our own way, Roguey.Heh... Call me Ray-centric (though I WOULDN'T know why) when I read this, I was rather worried about Rogue's choice to clean herself up right after giving up her search for Ray and what almost seems to be "oh well" shrug...

(But Victor, don't worry, I know it wasn't actually a shrug.)
As far as the issue itself goes, it is very much a bridge between two stories. The scenes with Rogue are great. I feel like Kitty is being a little harsh on Rachel, blaming her for abandoning the team. The girl has three severe puncture wounds in her chest, could very easily be dead for all they know, and Kitty is mad that she didn't help the team in battle? Perhaps she's really angry at herself for allowing the situation with Rachel to get so bad, and she doesn't want to admit it? She does a great job standing up to Nightcrawler's attackers, though. Yes, agreed. I think it's very possible that Kitty may be angry at herself, at the same time she was also disappointed in Rachel- but not only that, being disappointed about how Ray used and abused her power a few times- it must be a shocker for Kitty to see a girl her age having been twisted by her dreadful past (beside Illyana), of which details have been revealed to the X-Men over a timespan of months, revelations that weren't easy to swallow. Kitty wants to be understanding of Ray's situation, and she has some understanding, through what Rachel has told them and because of everything that happened with Kitty as well in the DoFP she's aware of the importance of Rachel's mission. This may sound farfetched, but perhaps Kitty is also disappointed that Rachel would -in her eyes- throw that responsibility away. Kitty wants to understand Rachel's perspective.

david r

12-06-2008, 07:31 AM

It seems to me that Chris is one of those writers who puts everything he sees in real, personal life plus what he reads about in papers, books, and magazines, into the comic books he writes.

I've thought that, as well. I could see Chris Claremont spending hours at the NY Library, reading about Norse God folklore (Asgardian Wars), or black magic (Illyana Rasputin). Or books on autism and multiple personalty disorders (Legion.) Or Native American Indian heritage (Demon Bear.) You can sense Claremont getting ideas and inspiration from sources, and the depth expressed in his stories tells ME he'd dove into these subjects, and out sprung story ideas. It is a fascinating way to write.

And for a transitional issue, it was a great one. Plenty of sweet stuff, from the semi-romantic/pining and sighs and woes ("In truth, I never stopped [loving Kitty]") -Oh, Piotr-,

It is pretty apparent there is still *something there* between Peter and Kitty.

I also liked this exchange with Piotr and Illyana, from Page 13. It is foreshadowing:

Illyana: "She NEEDS you, Peter! I mean, if WE don't look after our own, who the heck will?! Trouble is, right now ,it's like the X-Men--maybe the whole WORLD--is falling to pieces around her."
Peter: "Around us all."
Illyana: "We have to find a way to stop it--to put things right. Pull 'em back together--before it's too late."
Peter: "Perhaps, dear sister, it already is."

to the monthly dip into the theme of prejudice and discrimination, Piotr, Kitty, and Illyana coming to Kurt's rescue was fantastic, both Piotr's attempt at reasoning with the angry mob and Kitty telling it to them straight, confronting them with how beastly they were behaving (like Geoff said).

During the early years of Claremont's run, there was little focus on the human/mutants conflict. But by the mid-1980s, it became a major theme. Kudos to 1980s Marvel.

---Is Sebastian Shaw for real? The Inner Circle's aim is nothing less than world domination (it's described as thus, every time they're mentioned.) What game is he playing here?

---Seeing Nightcrawler with his head hung low here is heart-breaking. This particular adventure has turned deadly serious.

---Amusing the racist police officer who talks to X-Factor here, across from the Hellfire Club. They show this same conversation in X-Factor #9, but the cop looks completely different in both books.

--- Wolverine has a minimal appearance here, wearing a cowboy hat with a feather on the front. Logan looks more countryish than ever.

CallMeGeoff

12-06-2008, 08:14 AM

You're remembering right. First apperance of Gambit, Uncanny X-Men #266, there are Hounds w/ the Shadow King.

Hm, interesting. I wonder if the connection is ever followed up on.

Yes, agreed. I think it's very possible that Kitty may be angry at herself, at the same time she was also disappointed in Rachel- but not only that, being disappointed about how Ray used and abused her power a few times- it must be a shocker for Kitty to see a girl her age having been twisted by her dreadful past (beside Illyana), of which details have been revealed to the X-Men over a timespan of months, revelations that weren't easy to swallow. Kitty wants to be understanding of Ray's situation, and she has some understanding, through what Rachel has told them and because of everything that happened with Kitty as well in the DoFP she's aware of the importance of Rachel's mission. This may sound farfetched, but perhaps Kitty is also disappointed that Rachel would -in her eyes- throw that responsibility away. Kitty wants to understand Rachel's perspective.

Excellent points. Kitty is obviously struggling with all of this, and really, who wouldn't be?

I've thought that, as well. I could see Chris Claremont spending hours at the NY Library, reading about Norse God folklore (Asgardian Wars), or black magic (Illyana Rasputin). Or books on autism and multiple personalty disorders (Legion.) Or Native American Indian heritage (Demon Bear.) You can sense Claremont getting ideas and inspiration from sources, and the depth expressed in his stories tells ME he'd dove into these subjects, and out sprung story ideas. It is a fascinating way to write.

Thus, why CC will always be one of my favorite comic book writers. It's clearly a labor of love for him.

It is pretty apparent there is still *something there* between Peter and Kitty.

The whole Zsaji thing was a bit forced in the first place. And it made Peter look like a tool. So I'm glad that it's at least acknowledged that there's a possibility that Peter and Kitty will get back together one day.

worstblogever

12-06-2008, 08:14 AM

--Is Sebastian Shaw for real? The Inner Circle's aim is nothing less than world domination (it's described as thus, every time they're mentioned.) What game is he playing here?

He's always got an angle. Is this a case of "keep your friends close, and your enemies closer?" Is Shaw looking to genuinely forge an alliance with the X-Men, given the fact that threats like Nimrod lie out there that pose a risk to them both?

Or could it be something simpler? He's shown that he's terribly suspicious of Selene, since she was brought into the Hellfire Club, and now, it seems like he's outmatched in might by another within its ranks. Maybe he was hoping Magneto's legendary temper would flare up at the Black Queen, and he'd be rid of her?

It's hard to say. But if Magneto agrees, it does have TONS of plot potential.

david r

12-07-2008, 01:43 PM

http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/97792366288.211.GIF

Uncanny X-Men #211

Mutant Massacre
"Massacre"

1st appearance: The Marauders (Scalphunter, Riptide, Arclight, Harpoon, Scrambler)

"Hi, there! I'm Scalp-Hunter. We're the MARAUDERS. We kill mutants. Who's next?" Thus says the apparent leader of this new villain group, the Marauders. They have invaded the Morlock tunnels, deep below Manhattan streets. And a horrible, bloody massacre begins. The Marauders presented here consist of:
Scrambler: If Scrambler touches you, your power is disrupted.
Harpoon: Throws harpoons of energy, with deadly effect.
Arclight: Seemingly tremendous strength and power.
Riptide: A MALE who can spin at incredible velocity. He often hurls stars and spikes through the air, at dizzying speeds.
Vertigo: Causing nauseau and dizziness. From the Savage Land.
Scalphunter: Lethal with his guns and ammunition. He looks like a freakish version of Forge.

The Marauders begin a bloodbath. The Morlocks are unprepared for the assault, and though they try, are unable to stop the Marauders. The one named Riptide is especially lethal, scattering spikes against opponents and rendering them incapacitated. (I was a little surprised to see Vertigo and Piper in attendance. How did they get here from the Savage Land?) Meanwhile, the X-Men are blissfully unaware of the massacre happening under Manhattan. It is a perfect afternoon, as Wolverine, Colossus and Rogue are shoveling hay into the estate's barn. (This is the 1st time a barn is EVER shown on the Xavier's grounds.) Nightcrawler attempts to teleport near Logan. Kurt is succesful, but the drain exhausts him. He collapses into Logan's arms. Nightcrawler is still reeling from the Nimrod battle (in UXM #208-209.) Suddenly, the lawn EXPLODES near the 2 and they are thrown aside. A huge, giant-sized mutant thrusts his way out of the very earth, and cries, "X-Men, beg, implore--do I--for salvation! Strangers in the alley! They kill!" The poor mutant sadly, perishes in the mansion's infirmary. Storm decides to send the X-Men to investigate. Ororo orders Magneto and newcomer Betsy Braddock to remain at the Mansion to safeguard the New Mutants.

Illyana Rasputin teleports the X-Men into the Morlock tunnels. What the X-Men find sickens them. Bodies are piled everywhere. The stench of death and blood surrounds them. Shadowcat is shocked by it all, and sees friends dead among the bodies! They find Callisto, who is wounded but still alive. Suddenly, Vertigo STRIKES!! Riptide shoots his stars & spikes out, slashing and cutting the team. Nightcrawler teleports and grabs Vertigo. Kurt sends Vertigo bamfing all over the tunnel. It knocks Vertigo out, but Riptide grabs the exhausted 'crawler and spins him wildly!! Nightcrawler is left on the hard concrete, in a pool of his blood! The X-Men are enraged, as Ororo orders Magik to teleport back to the Mansion, with wounded Kurt. The X-Men now separate into 2 attack squads. Colossus and Shadowcat locate Scalphunter and Arclight, and assault them. Scalphunter shoots his long rifle straight into Kitty's head!! But the bullet merely passes through her phased form! Scalphunter stands incredulous! The other X-squad enter more darkened, claustrophobic tunnels! Wolverine smells the scent of X-Factor. Logan also smells the scent of.....someone who should be dead!!

The 2 X-squads meet up again, just in time for another go-around with the Marauders. This new group show remarkable skill and tact in battling the X-Men. Callisto gets her punches in, breaking ribs as she knocks Scrambler's lights out!! Colossus gets an energy-harpoon straight into his chest, and feels as though he is on fire!! But Peter does NOT fall!! Harpoon tosses an energy-harpoon at Rogue, but Shadowcat leaps in front to rescue her southern comrade! Kitty takes the impact, but soon realizes she CANNOT BECOME SOLID!! Kitty cannot unphase! Colossus stands for protection, as Riptide shoots out dozens of spikes, blooding the heroes. Peter grabs ahold of Riptide's neck...... and shockingly cracks Riptide's neck! Riptide collapses, dead! The Marauders flee, leaving the X-Men and a small Morlock group to lick their wounds. The Morlock survivors are put onto an underground train, headed for salvation. Ororo orders Wolverine to pursue the killers, and bring back a prisoner. Ororo says, "One prisoner is sufficient. The remaining Marauders are YOURS."

My thoughts: The legendary "Mutant Massacre" begins...with an appropriate bang!! I know grim 'n' gritty became cool around this period, but was Uncanny X-Men ahead of the curve? Because #211 is probably the most grim issue I've read thus far. The creators spare the gory details, but there is little doubt the full extent of the Marauders massacre in the Morlock tunnels. (There are indeed several deaths shown in panels.) The X-Men barely hold their own against the Marauders, and again, they barely survive their encounter. Following their defeat by Freedom Force in UXM #206, and their near defeat against Nimrod in #208-209......I'm starting to wonder about this lineup? Do they not have what it takes? Also, this story is the first "Big Event/Crossover" in the X-Men's history. Nobody had any IDEA it would become a yearly event. It is quite chilling, and claustrophobic tale filled with shadowy tunnels and dark, dirty walls. (I wondered *why* Storm wasn't reeling from claustrophobia herself?) Anyway, I'd like to give a shout-out to Worstblogever, for catching those Morlock kids shot in UXM #193. This is referenced here, as we learn Scalphunter shot those kids up on purpose. Damn, was Marvel planning this Big Event a whole year earlier? I was impressed, though I wouldn't call this a "fun read". It's very bleak and dark. But a massacre shouldn't be any other way..........

Yogaflame

12-07-2008, 04:23 PM

I always thought Riptide was a man. A thin, perhaps effeminate one(as speedsters tend to be...), but a man none the less.

worstblogever

12-07-2008, 04:24 PM

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/97792366288.211.GIF

Uncanny X-Men #211

Mutant Massacre
"Massacre"

1st appearance: The Marauders (Scalphunter, Riptide, Arclight, Harpoon, Scrambler)

"Hi, there! I'm Scalp-Hunter. We're the MARAUDERS. We kill mutants. Who's next?" Thus says the apparent leader of this new villain group, the Marauders. They have invaded the Morlock tunnels, deep below Manhattan streets. And a horrible, bloody massacre begins. The Marauders presented here consist of:
Scrambler: If Scrambler touches you, your power is disrupted.
Harpoon: Throws harpoons of energy, with deadly effect.
Arclight: Seemingly tremendous strength and power.
Riptide: A female who can spin at incredible velocity. She often hurls stars and spikes through the air, at dizzying speeds.
Vertigo: Causing nauseau and dizziness. From the Savage Land.
Piper: Plays his magical pipe, and can unleash animals to do his bidding. Also from the Savage Land Mutates.
Scalphunter: Lethal with his guns and ammunition. He looks like a freakish version of Forge.

The Marauders begin a bloodbath. The Morlocks are unprepared for the assault, and though they try, are unable to stop the Marauders. The one named Riptide is especially lethal, scattering spikes against opponents and rendering them incapacitated. (I was a little surprised to see Vertigo and Piper in attendance. How did they get here from the Savage Land?) Meanwhile, the X-Men are blissfully unaware of the massacre happening under Manhattan. It is a perfect afternoon, as Wolverine, Colossus and Rogue are shoveling hay into the estate's barn. (This is the 1st time a barn is EVER shown on the Xavier's grounds.) Nightcrawler attempts to teleport near Logan. Kurt is succesful, but the drain exhausts him. He collapses into Logan's arms. Nightcrawler is still reeling from the Nimrod battle (in UXM #208-209.) Suddenly, the lawn EXPLODES near the 2 and they are thrown aside. A huge, giant-sized mutant thrusts his way out of the very earth, and cries, "X-Men, beg, implore--do I--for salvation! Strangers in the alley! They kill!" The poor mutant sadly, perishes in the mansion's infirmary. Storm decides to send the X-Men to investigate. Ororo orders Magneto and newcomer Betsy Braddock to remain at the Mansion to safeguard the New Mutants.

Illyana Rasputin teleports the X-Men into the Morlock tunnels. What the X-Men find sickens them. Bodies are piled everywhere. The stench of death and blood surrounds them. Shadowcat is shocked by it all, and sees friends dead among the bodies! They find Callisto, who is wounded but still alive. Suddenly, Vertigo STRIKES!! Riptide shoots her stars & spikes out, slashing and cutting the team. Nightcrawler teleports and grabs Vertigo. Kurt sends Vertigo bamfing all over the tunnel. It knocks Vertigo out, but Riptide grabs the exhausted 'crawler and spins him wildly!! Nightcrawler is left on the hard concrete, in a pool of his blood! The X-Men are enraged, as Ororo orders Magik to teleport back to the Mansion, with wounded Kurt. The X-Men now separate into 2 attack squads. Colossus and Shadowcat locate Scalphunter and Arclight, and assault them. Scalphunter shoots his long rifle straight into Kitty's head!! But the bullet merely passes through her phased form! Scalphunter stands incredulous! The other X-squad enter more darkened, claustrophobic tunnels! Wolverine smells the scent of X-Factor. Logan also smells the scent of.....someone who should be dead!!

The 2 X-squads meet up again, just in time for another go-around with the Marauders. This new group show remarkable skill and tact in battling the X-Men. Callisto gets her punches in, breaking ribs as she knocks Scrambler's lights out!! Colossus gets an energy-harpoon straight into his chest, and feels as though he is on fire!! But Peter does NOT fall!! Harpoon tosses an energy-harpoon at Rogue, but Shadowcat leaps in front to rescue her southern comrade! Kitty takes the impact, but soon realizes she CANNOT BECOME SOLID!! Kitty cannot unphase! Colossus stands for protection, as Riptide shoots out dozens of spikes, blooding the heroes. Peter grabs ahold of Riptide's neck...... and shockingly cracks Riptide's neck! Riptide collapses, dead! The Marauders flee, leaving the X-Men and a small Morlock group to lick their wounds. The Morlock survivors are put onto an underground train, headed for salvation. Ororo orders Wolverine to pursue the killers, and bring back a prisoner. Ororo says, "One prisoner is sufficient. The remaining Marauders are YOURS."

My thoughts: The legendary "Mutant Massacre" begins...with an appropriate bang!! I know grim 'n' gritty became cool around this period, but was Uncanny X-Men ahead of the curve? Because #211 is probably the most grim issue I've read thus far. The creators spare the gory details, but there is little doubt the full extent of the Marauders massacre in the Morlock tunnels. (There are indeed several deaths shown in panels.) The X-Men barely hold their own against the Marauders, and again, they barely survive their encounter. Following their defeat by Freedom Force in UXM #206, and their near defeat against Nimrod in #208-209......I'm starting to wonder about this lineup? Do they not have what it takes? Also, this story is the first "Big Event/Crossover" in the X-Men's history. Nobody had any IDEA it would become a yearly event. It is quite chilling, and claustrophobic tale filled with shadowy tunnels and dark, dirty walls. (I wondered *why* Storm wasn't reeling from claustrophobia herself?) Anyway, I'd like to give a shout-out to Worstblogever, for catching those Morlock kids shot in UXM #193. This is referenced here, as we learn Scalphunter shot those kids up on purpose. Damn, was Marvel planning this Big Event a whole year earlier? I was impressed, though I wouldn't call this a "fun read". It's very bleak and dark. But a massacre shouldn't be any other way..........

I think I need to clarify a few things, david r.

- Don't let the long hair fool you... Riptide is a dude.
- Piper is not a Savage Land Mutate. That's the Morlock Piper (aka Piper II), who feasibly could be the same character, having fled from the Savage Land, although there's no way to know.
- That supposedly is the same Vertigo from the Savage Land, when this team of mutant mercenaries was organized, presumably recruits came from all over the Marvel Universe.
- Arclight's powerset includes more than just enhcaned strength.

I know, this battle is so crazy, and there are so many Morlocks and Marauders and X-Men in the battle shots, it is tricky to keep things straight.

I appreciate the shout-out, david, and among the Morlocks killed in this issue include:

Cybelle, Piper II, Annalee, (who Scalphunter mocks before killing her, having slaughtered her kids back in Uncanny X-Men #193). Add them to Tommy, who died last issue.

creaky

12-07-2008, 05:01 PM

And this is where Kurt finally hits rock bottom. Literally, I guess. (I remember being amused, the first time I read it, at Kitty's line "there is so much blood!", since there was not a drop of blood visible).

Kurt's actions in the tunnels mirror his scene with Nimrod - once again, he's being rash, this time despite the fresh memory of what happened last time. Once again, he's being warned, this time by Logan, who tells him to stay close where they can cover him, and he doesn't listen.
Logan's line the scene before, when Kurt drops into his arms after his teleportation mishap: "What were you trying to prove?" illuminates the problem.

To briefly recap, Kurt lost his faith in himself and in God, he lost Amanda and when he tried to get over it by reverting back to carefree swashbuckling mode, it blew up in his face and crippled him. So yes, Kurt really feels, at this point, more than anything else, that he has to prove himself. He KNOWS he's too weak. He KNOWS Logan's right. He KNOWS, definitely, what happened last time he didn't listen. He goes right ahead anyway, and next thing, he's shredded beef. :frown:
(I absolutely love how the artist/inker rendered the expression on Logan's face afterwards. I don't think I've ever seen him look more furious.)

Kurt and Logan won't see each other again until their mini together in Marvel Comics Presents #101-#108 (which takes place around Excalibur #55 or so). I'm not sure how much time that is in Marvel years.
(Spoilers ahead for Excalibur and future Uncanny issues: )
It's nice, though, how they will both go on to make good use of the lessons they taught each other. Kurt will work at rebuilding his pride and self-esteem by growing up and taking responsibility while Logan will turn into the heart and conscience of his team. (For a while, at least, until Marvel starts going pear-shaped.) It's like they've both graduated from each other's school.
It's a little poetic, too, how they, at this point, are kind of in the same place - they're both in a real sorry state. They're even about to go off licking their wounds together over a beer when they get interrupted by the ground exploding.

david r

12-07-2008, 08:07 PM

:redface: Ok, so Riptide is a man. Not that I found him the cutest Marauder as a female, or anythin'! :biggrin:

So there is a Morlock Piper? And a Marauder Piper? And a Savage Land Piper? I'm lost. (I thought it was uproarious when he summoned alligators in the sewers. I never knew there were so many gators in Manhattan sewers!)

So, is this Marvel's first "grim 'n gritty" comic book? The same year that Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns shocked readers with their dark, uncompromising visions of violent, mature stories, Marvel Comics releases the "Mutant Massacre". I'm surprised it doesn't get more credit for ushering in this more violent era.

Creaky, You've really convinced me that Nightcrawler was on a long, character arc of his own. Just like Storm, Magneto and Wolverine. I had never known or noticed this before. But you outline it all very well. Kurt is acting almost reckless, not listening to his teammates. Perhaps with his failed leadership, Kurt feels the need to compensate for that shortcoming. And so leaps into action, but this isn't working either. You really point out ALL 'Crawler has lost over the last 10 issues, and it's a bit depressing. Is he suicidal though? I hope he wasn't.

The Logan/Kurt friendship is remarkable in so many ways. They both have learned so much from each other. I think this was very well done. I'm sad that I won't see them together again for a really long time.

Here are the Marauders:

http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/pages/97792366288.211.P1.GIF

worstblogever

12-07-2008, 08:15 PM

:redface: Ok, so Riptide is a man. Not that I found him the cutest Marauder as a female, or anythin'! :biggrin:

So there is a Morlock Piper? And a Marauder Piper? And a Savage Land Piper? I'm lost. (I thought it was uproarious when he summoned alligators in the sewers. I never knew there were so many gators in Manhattan sewers!)

So, is this Marvel's first "grim 'n gritty" comic book? The same year that Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns shocked readers with their dark, uncompromising visions of violent, mature stories, Marvel Comics releases the "Mutant Massacre". I'm surprised it doesn't get more credit for ushering in this more violent era.

Creaky, You've really convinced me that Nightcrawler was on a long, character arc of his own. Just like Storm, Magneto and Wolverine. I had never known or noticed this before. But you outline it all very well. Kurt is acting almost reckless, not listening to his teammates. Perhaps with his failed leadership, Kurt feels the need to compensate for that shortcoming. And so leaps into action, but this isn't working either. You really point out ALL 'Crawler has lost over the last 10 issues, and it's a bit depressing.

There's no Marauder Piper. Their full roster to this point is Scalphunter, Scrambler, Sabretooth, Arclight, Riptide, Vertigo, Blockbuster, Prism, Malice, and Harpoon.

In this issue, the Morlock Piper tries to help defend the Morlocks by summoning a bunch of sewer rats to their aid.

Not that it helped much.

CallMeGeoff

12-07-2008, 10:12 PM

:redface: Ok, so Riptide is a man. Not that I found him the cutest Marauder as a female, or anythin'! :biggrin:

lol, no worries. I personally always thought Scrambler looked pretty feminine in this issue. It must just be the art. :redface:

This is a great issue. Things definitely aren't looking that good for the X-Men these days. They haven't for quite a while, actually. Teammates are dropping like flies. And the fight's not even over yet.

CallMeGeoff

12-07-2008, 10:19 PM

Oh, and I forgot to mention, the Morlock Piper was apparently first seen in the pages of Thor. David, I don't know if you are planning on covering the Thor tie-ins here or over in the X-Factor thread (I highly recommend them for X-Factor), but Piper is mentioned in Thor #373.

CallMeGeoff

12-07-2008, 10:23 PM

Just one more thing (I promise! :smile:):

In honor of Marvel's 25th Anniversary, I thought I'd post some of the covers for the other titles that came out this month. Enjoy!

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger2/5075/2366/1600/cxm3.jpg
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger2/5075/2366/1600/ff296.jpg
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger2/5075/2366/1600/ssm120.jpg

CallMeGeoff

12-07-2008, 10:26 PM

Couldn't resist these:
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger2/5075/2366/1600/cb7.jpg
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger2/5075/2366/1600/ewok10.jpg
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger2/5075/2366/1600/mb10.jpg

The rest can be seen here:
http://kleefeldoncomics.blogspot.com/2006/11/marvels-25th-anniversary.html

Falconen

12-07-2008, 10:41 PM

davidr, the Massacre is covered in Power Pack, X-Factor, New Mutants & Thor, as well as the X-Men. You are going to have a lot of reading to do, just to cover this massive event. I think all the tie ins were actually pretty good too.

The X-Men have taken a big hit in this first battle with the Marauders. Nightcrawler is seriously injured, Shadowcat has been perma phased, and Colossus took a hell of a beating from Harpoon and Riptide. Plus, Peter also killed another being for the first time. Not to mention the countless Morlocks that were killed.

You would think that a Mutant Nation (ok, underground city) would have put up a stronger defense, or at least taken out a few of their attackers. I guess they were totally caught of guard.

The Massacre leads into some great stories and has long, lingering effects in X-Men and X-Factor.

worstblogever

12-07-2008, 11:24 PM

Plus, Peter also killed another being for the first time. Not to mention the countless Morlocks that were killed.

Unless you count Proteus.

CJ Lentze

12-08-2008, 08:04 AM

Heh, the first Marvel 25th anniversary cover I saw was Transformers # 22 (featuring the Stunticons vs the Aerialbots).

Yes, the Morlock Massacre or Mutant Massacre is one of the grimmest events in the history of Marvel's mutant population. It must have been both off-putting and confusing for readers, to think about the precise intentions of the Marauders. Scalphunter states "We kill mutants", then the large Morlock wonders "you have superpowers, maybe you're mutants like us; why are you doing this?" Then Magneto says that it reminds him of the Holocaust, only now mutants are the targeted group. So I can imagine that this could have led a reader to think that the Marauders aren't mutants, but non-mutant superhumans who are out to exterminate mutants. Of course, this wasn't the case, as was revealed eventually.

Imraith Nimphais, didn't you say you were into the punk scene back in those days? One thing I think is funny, is that while Storm has the punk 'look', and has adopted a tougher, more ruthless attitude, she keeps speaking in her regal manner (in her choice of words), and she never shows any interest in punk subculture or punk rock music. That makes for a funny contrast.

Ever since winning the duel from Cyclops, Storm has very much become the 'face' of the team. I mean, Wolverine is the most popular X-Man at this point and features prominently on a lot of covers, but Storm is at the center of all the 'group shots', and she exudes this aura of "We are the protectors of mutantkind, and I am the first one you will face, and the last one to stand or fall in battle". All this while she remains powerless, too.

Imraith Nimphais

12-08-2008, 10:00 AM

Very true Schuimend M...I picked up on the contrast between Storm's appearance and her character early on as well...as far as I can tell...she herself admits...the mohawk and leather is just an outward representation of the inner conflict between the serene goddess and the warrior X-man...it was her way of melding the two aspects of her personality...the hard-bitten, callous fighter with her sacred reverence for life and serenity of spirit...which made her a much better leader (for all her seeming mistakes) especially in the times ahead, as you rightly point out, she was placed front and centre and it added to her strong "I am the first one you will face, and the last one to stand or fall in battle". aura...personally, back then, I thought it was a beautyful dichotomy...one which influenced me quite a bit...for, eventhough I was decidedly "punk", I never allowed myself to be so totally submerged in culture...the music was provocative and emotional (most times negatively so) but, because of my mixed parentage, I was also very much interested in much wider musical genres...I understood the role of those in authority...sometimes I acted out when I felt it was necessary to do so, other times I held my peace...besides, individualist that I am and, as openminded as my parents were, they would never allow total submergence...they understood and completely accepted why I dressed the way I did, the music I listened to...and they were totally fine with that...up until the point I was no longer "myself"...for example, one evening, after a family dinner with visiting relatives and work colleagues, my mother tells me, all very proper..."That is not how you were taught to speak, remember who you are"...:-))...imo, that dichotomy only added to the strength and complexity of Storm's character (and mine) that made her so very compelling to read.
On anothr note: One thing bothered me about the Marauders, and it still does...if Scalphunter was responsible for the deaths of Analees' children, why did they need Tommy to lead them back to the alley in the previous issue?...surely they would have known about the Morlocks' existence or their hide-out at the very least...all in all...this issue was a very poignant start to the overall "mood" of the next year's worth of stories...may I point out as well, and this is just an observation...as much as the humans fear and hate them, it is always other mutants who cause the most death and destruction, wether directly or indirectly, to the mutants race as a whole...hmm.

Falconen

12-08-2008, 05:20 PM

Unless you count Proteus.

You are correct WBE. I forgot that he had killed Proteus. I think the difference is that his attack against Proteus wasn't as harsh and personal as his attack against Riptide. Proteus' weakness vs metal was what really killed him. Peter went after Riptide with the intent to kill him. He snapped Riptides neck in vengence for what Riptide had done to Nightcrawler, the Morlocks and the other X-Men. I do not fault him for it at all as they were technically "at war" and the Marauders were not showing any restraint.

creaky

12-08-2008, 05:42 PM

Creaky, You've really convinced me that Nightcrawler was on a long, character arc of his own. Just like Storm, Magneto and Wolverine. I had never known or noticed this before. But you outline it all very well. Kurt is acting almost reckless, not listening to his teammates. Perhaps with his failed leadership, Kurt feels the need to compensate for that shortcoming. And so leaps into action, but this isn't working either. You really point out ALL 'Crawler has lost over the last 10 issues, and it's a bit depressing. Is he suicidal though? I hope he wasn't.

No way of knowing, but subconsciously? Maybe. Maybe that's why he drove Amanda away, too. He was certainly self-destructive.

david r

12-08-2008, 08:50 PM

Falconen, On the subject of the Morlocks defending themselves better, a very good point. I got the impression the Morlocks were mainly a ragtag bunch with little leadership, cohesion or direction. The book X-Factor did show the mutant Skids defending a checkpoint once. But I suspect any guards they might have had, were exterminated quickly by the Marauders.

I wonder why Masque, Healer and Sunder have not been shown at all anywhere in this whole affair?

Schuimend Mormel, Storm definitely is the leader, there is no question of it. Wolverine may appear on the most covers, but Storm takes up more time inside the books. I don't think Ororo ever wanted to be "punk". Her new look was similiar to punk, but I think it was more a reflection of what was going onside of her: her rejection of the Goddess. It was that more than any real "punk rock" tendencies, which I haven't seen. I also like how Wolverine defers to her judgment and leadership. He knows a leader when he sees one.

Imraith Nimphais, You are very right. Scalphunter should have known where the Morlocks were, by the killings he admitted to (shown in Uncanny X-Men #193.) My No-Prize answer is the Marauders used Tommy to get past security within the Morlock tunnels. But I think you caught an error there. And you make a very good point about other mutants causing the most damage to the X-Men. I've noticed that from the beginning of this series.

I felt so bad for Peter. He was so filled with anger when he killed Riptide. It was tragic to see. And what exactly DID Riptide do to Nightcrawler, that incapacitates him? It isn't very clear.

worstblogever

12-08-2008, 09:31 PM

I wonder why Masque, Healer and Sunder have not been shown at all anywhere in this whole affair?

Well... Keep an eye on X-Factor issues for Masque. Healer, who REALLY could come in handy with all these people getting wounded, will be showing up at some point. He's lost just so he isn't the deus ex machina to fix all these dying Morlocks from the start. And as for Sunder? I believe he turns up in New Mutants. They Morlocks really do get scattered into separate X-books during this crossover.

Imraith Nimphais, You are very right. Scalphunter should have known where the Morlocks were, by the killings he admitted to (shown in Uncanny X-Men #193.) My No-Prize answer is the Marauders used Tommy to get past security within the Morlock tunnels. But I think you caught an error there. And you make a very good point about other mutants causing the most damage to the X-Men. I've noticed that from the beginning of this series.

Shoot, if you think about it, Scalphunter supposedly can track people in a snowstorm... AND they also have Creed. Why the Marauders couldn't find the Morlocks is beyond me. Oh, and then it gets even more convoluted when Uncanny #350 retcons that GAMBIT of all people is the one that leads them to the Morlock Tunnels. It's like... wait, what ever happened to Tommy?

CJ Lentze

12-09-2008, 03:15 AM

Very true Schuimend M...I picked up on the contrast between Storm's appearance and her character early on as well...as far as I can tell...she herself admits...the mohawk and leather is just an outward representation of the inner conflict between the serene goddess and the warrior X-man...it was her way of melding the two aspects of her personality...the hard-bitten, callous fighter with her sacred reverence for life and serenity of spirit...which made her a much better leader (for all her seeming mistakes) especially in the times ahead, as you rightly point out, she was placed front and centre and it added to her strong "I am the first one you will face, and the last one to stand or fall in battle". aura...personally, back then, I thought it was a beautyful dichotomy...one which influenced me quite a bit...for, eventhough I was decidedly "punk", I never allowed myself to be so totally submerged in culture...the music was provocative and emotional (most times negatively so) but, because of my mixed parentage, I was also very much interested in much wider musical genres...I understood the role of those in authority...sometimes I acted out when I felt it was necessary to do so, other times I held my peace...besides, individualist that I am and, as openminded as my parents were, they would never allow total submergence...they understood and completely accepted why I dressed the way I did, the music I listened to...and they were totally fine with that...up until the point I was no longer "myself"...for example, one evening, after a family dinner with visiting relatives and work colleagues, my mother tells me, all very proper..."That is not how you were taught to speak, remember who you are"...:-))...imo, that dichotomy only added to the strength and complexity of Storm's character (and mine) that made her so very compelling to read.
You're very open, to be comfortable enough to lay bare so much about yourself. That's cool, and I think your words make a world of sense.I felt so bad for Peter. He was so filled with anger when he killed Riptide. It was tragic to see. And what exactly DID Riptide do to Nightcrawler, that incapacitates him? It isn't very clear.Riptide got close to Kurt and Tasmanian-Devilled all around him, cutting him with his blades. So, Kurt gets cut wounds all over his body. But like creaky said, you can't see any blood in that panel.

david r

12-14-2008, 07:03 AM

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1110/533894942_f3c59ffc5d_o.jpg

david r

12-16-2008, 07:06 PM

http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/97792366288.212.GIF

Uncanny X-Men #212

Mutant Massacre
"The Last Run"

The bloodbath of the Morlocks, and it's consequences, continues. X-Men are gravely injured, and more fall in this issue. Some physically. And some emotionally. It is a riveting tale of sorrow, despair and hope.

As Wolverine roams through the deserted, bloodied Morlocks tunnels for the Marauders, the X-Men lick their wounds back at Charles Xavier's Mansion. Dr.. Moira MacTaggert and Sharon Friedlander are trying to save as many wounded as possible. But most have died. Storm stands cut and bleeding, looking over the filled medical room. Never before have so many injured been treated here. Storm seems aloof and approaches Nightcrawler. Kurt is strapped to a life-support system, in a coma. Ororo thinks to herself, "Look at me, Nightcrawler. Say a word, please--smile. I miss--I need--your laughter." Kitty Pryde is within a glass enclosure, trapped in her phase mode. She has become a "living ghost". Colossus watches her and is enraged. Storm is upset that the most gentle of them, Peter Rasputin, is filled with murderous rage.

Ororo is suddenly beside herself with anguish, and she runs from the room, leaps out a door and down steps, and flees into the surrounding woods!! Ororo runs with all her might, overcome with a need to run ,escape, flee from the wounded. Flee from the X-Men! Flee from her responsibilities!! Ororo runs blindly into the dark woods and races through trees and branches. Finally, coming to a cliff overlooking Breakstone Lake. Storm leaps into the waters and swims ! Swims as hard as she can to get away! Meanwhile, back at the Mansion, Colossus becomes dizzy and suddenly collapses over new recruit, Psylocke! Colossus is alive, but has become "frozen" in his steel body. Peter is nearly dead, as Rogue lifts his stiff form upward. Psylocke mindlinks with him and learns he is alive. But barely. Moira MacTaggert does not know what to do; she cannot perform on his metallic body. Magneto comes to the rescue, using his metallic powers to draw strength from the Earth's magnetic field. He sends this energy into Peter, repairing and healing the wounds which are "leaking" blood as energy, out from Colossus' body. Magneto is so careful, he is exhausted when the procedure is finished. Peter awakens, and smiles (with a cute "CREEEAK" for his metallic smile. Colossus will live, but he is still paralyzed!

Back in the Morlock tunnels, Wolverine is confronted by Sabretooth! These 2 seem to know each other, and Sabretooth is holding the Morlock Healer. Wolverine & Sabretooth leap into a ferocious physical battle, as they claw and slice one another. Logan uses his brains, and smashes part of the tunnel down between them, thus ending the fight. Logan grabs the Healer and heads back to the X-Mansion. In this classic issue's final act, Callisto confronts a demoralized Storm out in the woods. Storm seems to have had a complete mental breakdown, and wants to leave behind the X-Men. Callisto chases her thru the forest, reminding her of her responsibilities. What about the mutants who have died? What about her X-Men? Did they die in vain? Callisto thought she'd be happy to see Ororo fall. But instead, she knows Ororo must remain. Callisto finally talks Ororo back to reason, and Storm seems resigned to returning to the Mansion.

My thoughts: The story shifts from the Morlock tunnels---to the consequences. I liked how X-Men are stricken by this holocaust, but in different ways. Seeing Nightcrawler and Shadowcat hurt is heart-breaking. Colossus' pains is another shocking blow, and #212 makes the reader realize the X-Men have been mortally wounded by this Massacre...perhaps more than ever before. Magneto's spectacular moment of healing Colossus was well-depicted and showcase what a hero he has become. Wolverine vs. Sabretooth was cool, and surely hints to things to come. But the real standout for #212 (to me) was Storm's near mental collapse, as she flees and runs from the mansion (and the X-Men) in the face of the carnage. This is a truly unexpected scene, which I'm at a loss to think of when another superhero has ever become so overwhelmed they ran for their lives. I'm sure Storm fanatics dislike this turn of events, but what happens here (and the face-to-face with Callisto) only opens up Ororo Munroe as a more three-dimension character, confronted by circumstances she could no longer withstand or deal with. The pressures of her job finally got to her, and she showed emotion. Emotion seldom shown by comic book characters. The resulting battle with Callisto was cool, as who would think Callisto (!!) would be the person to bring Storm back to her senses. This is a classic issue.

CallMeGeoff

12-16-2008, 09:09 PM

I love this issue so much. Storm was such a great character back then. I definitely feel for her. This is a tough burden to bear. I really like the step that her relationship with Callisto takes in this issue. Really, everyone is characterized so well here. You can really see how the massacre has changed everything. Storm and Colossus are really struggling with the events of the last couple issues, to the point that they might never completely recover emotionally. And the Marauders make Magneto look like a saint. Magneto did some pretty bad stuff in his day, but he always had a reason, misguided as it may have been. But the Marauders don't seem to have any motivation besides their love of killing. They can't be reasoned with and convinced to follow a different path like Magneto was. Very dangerous adversaries.

worstblogever

12-17-2008, 01:13 AM

The consequences of the Morlock Massacre, it would seem, leave Wolverine, Magneto, and new recruit Psylocke as the only healthy members of the X-Men. Not to downplay what's happened to the rest of the team, but "did anyone say recruitment drive?" :redface:

Staggering impact, and for a Logan/Sabretooth fight, this one really sets the bar from the early going. Its ending though... is this the third time Creed is caught in a cave-in during this crossover? He's like a bad guy from the video game Dig Dug at this point. Logan saving Healer is really a crucial event, and it seems likely that this will help out folks like Nightcrawler, or other Morlocks get on their feet again. Crucial save.

But, can Healer go through and pick WHO he's got to save, as he blacked out from exhaustion after saving Professor X from a near-fatal beating back in earlier issues of Uncanny (and yet he left Chuck close to death for Uncanny #200?) Never did understand why now Healer was considered an essential save. He's really not good for deus ex machina fixes like some mutant healers are *cough*ELIXIR*cough* :redface:

Imraith Nimphais

12-17-2008, 09:48 AM

How about that bloody Windsor-Smith cover?...Be-ooty-frakkin'-full! and I loved the Leonardi interior art...as for Storm..."the Goddess has become just plain folk" indeed (i paraphrase from LD1)...CC shows the other extreme of being able to "...to feel with the full extent of (her) being"...from someone who has had to rein in her emotions, in the early days, to this moment of self-doubt and recrimination resulting in the full acceptance of her role as leader (and all that such a role entails...with a special shout-out to Callisto for making this possible)...she truly "feels" wot it is to be human...you knocked it aces, David, at this juncture in X-lore, Storm is arguably the most 3-dimensional and well-defined of CC's characters...say wot you will about the man's talent...but his run as x-scribe is duly noted for the constant and consistent developement of (all) his characters throughout.

Falconen

12-17-2008, 10:38 AM

It showed great growth in Logans character when he chose the Healer over Vengence against Sabretooth for the Massacre. Ororo losing it was a little out of left field, but she has gone through a lot lately. Her power loss and then retaking leadership of the X-Men again, the shift of Magneto into the X-Mens lives, which she had no real say in, and now the Massacre. Callisto steered her back into the right direction.

Valjean999

12-18-2008, 11:42 AM

To me, the most heart-wrenching part of this issue was simply Ororo saying to Kurt, "Look at me, Nightcrawler. Say a word, please--smile. I miss--I need--your laughter." Such a simple moment, yet its one that I remember all these years later.

Imraith Nimphais

12-18-2008, 01:29 PM

limerick

12-20-2008, 03:26 AM

Sorry,I've been away guys-----serious broadband connection problems---one of the disadvantages of rural lifestyle.Doesn't look likeI'll be getting it sorted any time soon .Waiting for new modem from suppliers.Damn-----missing Mutant Massacre---will havea lot of catching up to do.See you in the New Year.Happy Christmas everyone.

p.s. let'smakawolverinefilm is one busy guy!

david r

12-20-2008, 06:29 AM

That's okay, Limerick. Things happen in life which take us away from the internet. I myself have suffered an injury. Which explains why my reviews/summaries have slowed way down. I am trying to recover.

But Uncanny X-Men #212 is a remarkable issue. Storm seeing all those mortally wounded Morlocks is too much for her. How much responsibility should she share? Ororo is the Morlocks leader. I can hear Ororo thinking "What would Charles have done?" "What would Scott do?" And it becomes too much for her.

Imraith Nimphais

12-20-2008, 06:47 AM

Wishing you a right proper and speedy recovery, David.

CJ Lentze

12-20-2008, 07:09 AM

From me, as well, david. I had no idea. I hope you'll fully recover very soon.

It made me think of DDM and his absence, because I doubted he'd stay angry about the 'no spoilers' rule incident, and he also posts in the other Marvel forums and in the Classic and Misc forums so he had no reason to stay away from there; but he was on-line a week ago. So I guess he's just been busy.

I was just thinking about it because DDM often catches me when I fall.

A very Happy Christmas to limerick in advance.

I wanted to add something to the discussion of the storyline, but at the moment, I don't know what to add to what's been said. This is almost like an X-Crescence post.

Nevets F

12-20-2008, 08:07 AM

Recover quickly David!

david r

12-20-2008, 08:21 AM

Thanks for the kind words. I am doing my best. I only feel bad that my injury has slowed down the Mutant Massacre discussion. I never intended for it to take this long. :smile:

david r

12-20-2008, 08:27 AM

http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/97792366288.213.GIF

Uncanny X-Men #213

Mutant Massacre
"Psylocke"

As the title implies, Psylocke makes her proper intro into the X-Men. The team is still reeling from the Marauders' onslaught! But one villain comes to the Mansion to finish an old debt. Newcomer Alan Davis draws his first actual X-men ssue here, too. It is quite good!!

Betsy Braddock is utilizing Cerebro, helping Rogue cover the grounds for any Marauder attempt to access the Mansion. Her psychic power is strikingly displayed by a "Butterfly Effect", shining yellow bright with Psylocke's eyes shown within. It is remarkably well conceived, and "flies" around where Elizabeth's consciousness, via Cerebro, direct it. Psylocke psychically checks in on the wounded, 30 meters below the Mansion in the infirmary. It is there where the few Morlock survivors are being treated, by Moira MacTaggert and nurse Sharon Friedlander. Nightcrawler is in a coma; so deep Betsy cannot perceive even a flicker of awareness. Colossus is frozen in his metallic state. Kitty Pryde trapped like a living ghost--slowly discorporating. But Peter and Kitty have their spirits high.

Within the Alley, the head tunnel for the Morlocks, Wolverine, Storm, Callisto and Magneto are taking into account the serious damage, and their next move. (Callisto is listed here as "Leader of the Morlocks". Is that an oversight?) Callisto is beside herself with rage, for obvious reasons. It appears that lightning has wiped the tunnels clean of all & everything. Callisto suspects it is Storm's doing. But Storm has lost her powers? Right? (Could it have been Ororo's secret sorcery, in place instead?) Back at the Mansion, the worst is about to occur, as Sabretooth makes a stab at breaking into the X-Mansion. Sabretooth catches Rogue on patrol, and beats the living crap out of her. He then makes his way into the Mansion itself, and attacks Psylocke at the Cerebro device!!! Sabretooth's claws rips into Cerebro, slicing the control panel!! Psylocke turns and hits him with a full psionic blast, sending the savage Marauder reeling into the main Cerebro unit! It explodes, crushing it and, I assume, disabling Cerebro in the process. (I like how they show that classic Cerebro design, taken from waaaaay back in the Lee/ Kirby days!)

Now begins a mad dash, as Psylocke,alone, races through the mansion, chased by Sabretooth. Betsy lunges fitness weights at him, but 'Tooth just smiles and crushes them in his steely claws. Psylocke smashes thru a window, and races onto the roof. Sabretooth in hot pursuit and slashes her leg, sending her falling into Ororo's attic home. Sabretooth grabs Betsy by the neck and is ready for the kill, when Wolverine and Storm arrive and save Betts. Wolverine and Sabretooth leap back out onto the roof, and claw, slice 'n dice each other. Their brutal, no-holds-barred fight carries them away from the mansion, over the Xavier grounds, until finally they make it to a cliff overlooking Breakstone Lake. Psylocke uses this opportunity to to "eavesdrop" into Sabretooth's mind. She learns Logan & 'tooth have a long, hated history. She catches glimpses of the Marauders and their mystery leader-- Mr. Sinister. Finally, Sabretooth leaps into the lake, with Wolverine following. But 'Tooth disappears in the deep waters, and Rogue catches Wolvie in the waters. #213 ends with the X-Men remarking what a fine job Psylocke did, handling Sabretooth alone and keeping him away from the wounded Morlocks. They nominate her as a new member, and Psylocke accepts! Awesome!

My thoughts: I always like when the action makes it's way to the Xavier Mansion. #213 is definitely one of those adventures! Seeing Cerebro destroyed and the action in the School and on the roof was riveting! Sabretooth has really gotten the spotlight over the last 2 issues, and turned into a new, dangerous adversary. Especially for Wolverine. But Psylocke is the issue's star, and Betsy Elizabeth Braddock (is that right?) shows she is quite capable of holding her own. It's been obvious Chris Claremont was maneuvering her into membership (since she arrived in New Mutants #2, ) and this issue makes it official. Psylocke is a member. Alan Davis draws the team beautifully. But I think I will carry away from #213 the high-spirited, ferocious run-around fight between Psylocke & Sabretooth. They seem well mismatched, but looks can be deceiving!

Imraith Nimphais

12-20-2008, 10:22 AM

Well...by now, if we all have read X-Factor's chapters on the "Massacre", we know the source of the lightning...(and if you all have not kept up to date with David's FTB:X-F thread well...tsk tsk tsk...shame on you...SHAME!)

CJ Lentze

12-20-2008, 10:50 AM

I like Alan Davis' art a lot. Beside being a chapter in the Mutant Massacre crossover, it's also a good tale on its own about Elisabeth Braddock; about how appearances can be deceiving. The X-Men AND Sabretooth judge 'the book' by 'the cover' and underestimate Betsy, I like when she says "My language would make a Royal Marine blush. My thoughts are worse. All they see in me--all they acknowledge--is my shell! The sweet innocent, genteel, Princess Di façade. How do I show them the tiger within?!" At the end, there's the acceptance and the group hug. Awww.

And the Wolverine/Sabretooth fight, which has 'round two' in this issue. Readers talked about it years afterward, because it was apparently pretty unique to just show consecutive panels of two arch enemies beating up on each other without any dialogue. (had been done before between Wolverine and the Silver Samurai, though).

david, 'Betsy' is short for 'Elisabeth'. So she's Elisabeth Braddock, but friends call her Betsy.

takatomon

12-20-2008, 03:37 PM

I wanted to wait until we where done with the whole crossover before commenting on anything. This had to have been the first cross over I had read in comic form. I had picked up a few single issues and then finally found a copy of the trade. This crossover made me finally get serious about collecting comics and realzing that the marvel universe was a whole big connected place. Every part of it seemed to have a point, there didn't feel like there was the sense of 'hey our book isn't selling lets through it into this event'

It was nice to see the differences between X-Factor and X-Men. X-Factor seemed more concerned about helping the morlocks and getting their charges out of danger, whereas the x-men wanted vengance more. Though reading it seems X-Factor had a much higher kill count. IT seems like the X-men are taking a dark turn now and X-Factor is gonna be the group really going to be the face of the dream.

Also with half the team injured what will happen the the X-Men? They lost their innocence, the heart, and soul with Peter, Kurt, and Kitty. And powerwise they have no long range fights, most of their stealth members are hurt and a huge powerhouse is gone. I also feel that the team is gonna go into a very pro active approach. The enemy has struck home and struck hard. At best this fight was a draw and now they X-men seem out for blood. The future looks dark and exciting.

david r

12-20-2008, 05:46 PM

http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/pages/97792366288.213.P1.GIF

The first page to #213 (above). I love Psylocke's purple hair! (Even purple eyes?) And thank you Schuimend, for Elizabeth "Betsy" Braddock's name. I did not remember that "Betsy" was short.

http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/pages/97792366288.213.P2.GIF

Above, Psylocke's psychic "Butterfly eyes" are quite striking, as she checks in on various people.

http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/pages/97792366288.213.P3.GIF

Above, the X-Men who have fallen in the Mutant Massacre.

creaky

12-20-2008, 05:54 PM

Get better soon, David!

worstblogever

12-21-2008, 02:50 AM

Uncanny #213 is another great issue, and really makes you feel like the Mutant Massacre is but one act of a greater work. It ends with the X-Men learning of Sinister, and wondering who the mystery madman who would commit genocide against the Morlocks is, and why he would do so?

Furthermore, you get an unbelievable official induction of Psylocke on the team, where she's shown to be smart and resourceful, and while it appears Sabretooth might have her somewhat outclassed, she really holds her own.

Which is to say, Sabretooth is shown to be completely savage and remorseless, and he's given nothing but the chance to be shown as a credible threat, rather than just the bumbler who kept getting caught in cave-ins back in the tunnels.

Finally, you get the Wolverine vs. Sabretooth fight... which is so brutal, Logan can't even lose himself in thought and litter the page with all his internal monologue.

Phenomenal issue. One of Claremont's best.

david r

12-21-2008, 07:23 AM

The Mutant Massacre: An Overview:

Thanks to everyone for your thoughts on this one: the first "Big Event/Crossover" in X-Men history. It was quite good, full of action and in-your-face violence. If anything, I felt it was too brual. Too unrelentingly grim and dark. I guess a "massacre" cannot be depicted any other way. But seeing so many heroes hurt and mutants murdered------while the villains got off scott free-----was unusual for Marvel of the day. The story did not have an adequate ending. So much was left unresolved (like who the Marauders work for/their motive for mutant butchery,etc.)

I was surprised only one issue of Uncanny X-Men actually took place amongst the slaughter, inside the Morlock tunnels. The book X-Factor spent more time "in the trenches" showing what actually occured in those dark, passageways of terror and death. I did feel that the crossover issues (Thor, Power Pack, X-Factor and New Mutants ) were very well coordinated. Few felt like filler, and most have important, substantial stuff to tell us readers on the massacre. Whether it was heroes being hurt or Morlocks looking for salvation, the crossovers were finely tied-into UXM.

I also liked how events leading up to this massacre, like Phoenix's quandary and the Nimrod/Hellfire Club arc in Uncanny X-Men #208-209, felt like a prelude to the Mutant Massacre. It was well-plotted and seamlessly flowed together.

For the first time, many X-Men go down in high numbers. Shadowcat, Nightcrawler, Colossus and Angel are all mortally wounded, and close to death. This does give the broader epic a strength and power one might not expect. Do they survive? The reader is left truly not knowing the answer. And though most of the fallen Morlocks are faceless unknowns, the few we have met, like Annalee or Sunder, give the Massacre a blow to the balls that bring it all home. I found Leech's emotional longing for his lost "mother", or Callisto's impotent anger at not being able to help her people, really brought to bear the devastation wrought on these poor souls.

The Marauders themselves were rather vague, and we learned next to nothing about them. Sabretooth the most lethal (when he wasn't the mutant Mr. Bill, having concrete fall on his head, duly noted by WorstBlogever.) But Harpoon, Riptide and Blockbuster got their licks in, as well. You could tell the Marauders were enjoying their roles as Grim Reapers. Usually villains have a motive like world conquest or material wealth. But here, they want to kill, kill, kill and it must have been an eye-opener for fans in 1986. But remember, this was the year that brought us "grim 'n' gritty" with Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns. So it appears X-MEN was ahead of the curve again, at least at Marvel Comics.

In some ways, I liked the last two issues of UXM the best. #212 and #213 were more the heroes being pro-active. I liked seeing the consequences of the massacre. From Ororo's shocking "run through the woods" to escape the face of death (and her own guilt?), to Wolverine's two heated rounds with Sabretooth, to the destruction of Cerebro, and the involvement of new member, Psylocke. You REALLY FEEL like this story has some meat on the bones, and more story will spin out of this. For such a sad story, I'm glad it ends on a ray of hope: Elizabeth Braddock joining the team.

david r

12-21-2008, 09:53 PM

Scenes of the Marauders/Morlock massacre:

http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/pages/97792366288.211.P2.GIF

http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/pages/97792366288.211.P3.GIF

Jimmy Starburst

12-22-2008, 02:56 PM

Hey y'all! Remember me? Well I missed much of the late 100s and the Paul Smith arc (one of my all-time favorite run of issues) but I see I jumped back into the fold at a very exciting time in the X-Men's history.

As you say david, the Mutant Massacre is dark, but rightfully so: it marks the first great cataclysm in the X-Men's history, scarring the team to such an extent they would not recover for years.

As for #213: what an issue. Amazing art, and the Uncanny debut of the beautiful Betsy Braddock, and I love the contrast of her apparent naivete with the savagery of Wolverine and Sabertooth's fight. "..they so love what they do."

david r

12-22-2008, 08:21 PM

I had not forgotten you, Jimmy Starburst. I remember you asking for a New Mutants thread, but you never posted in it. :frown: No hard feelings :smile: , I am glad to see you return.

Here is Louise Simonson's take on the Mutant Massacre, taken from Comics Creators on X-Men: Enjoy!

"Mutant Massacre is one of my favorite comic book stories--from my era, anyway. When Paul Smith was working on X-Men with Chris, Chris asked Paul to draw the alley--the place where the mutant Morlocks gathered. I think Chris figured there were maybe a couple of hundred, maybe 300 Morlocks altogether. Anyway, Paul drew a crowd. He drew huge numbers of mutants thronging the alley. There must have been thousands. Chris eventually said this really was too many mutants, and decided there was going to be this "Mutant Massacre". I had just taken over on X-FACTOR, and Chris was telling me the story, as he loved to do. For some reason, Chris is able to tell people his stories and then still be interested in writing them, which I find astonishing. Anyway, I thought it was ar eally cool idea. I figured if you were going to blow away thousands of mutants in the alley, it was just too big a story to do in a couple of issues of X-MEN. What if we do this massacre in New York City and make it a big event and I'll tie into the story in X-FACTOR and POWER PACK?

What was great about this crossover was that it was one ofthe eraly ones, and it grew out of a story itself. Other creators could play if they wanted to play, but they didn't have to. It wasn't required. So we created this whole big intertwiningthing of mutants being slaughtered by bad guys. We even made a chart that people could follow if they went out to the comic book shop. It was kind of like a maze that showed you which books to read first. we wanted to call it the "Merry Marching Marvel Mutant Massacre", but forsome reason the sales department wouldn't let us do that. It may have been in bad taste, I guess. In my opinion, "Mutant Massacre" turned out to be a pretty good story. I think we were able to move a lot of things forward and it was really fun. I also think we killed off enough mutants to make Chris happy."

Imraith Nimphais

12-24-2008, 02:20 PM

SENDING YOU ALL MY BRIGHTEST, BESTEST AND HAPPIEST THOUGHTS AND WISHES FOR THE HOLIDAYS...TAKE CARE ALL...ps...to David...I know the wretched post has gone and lost the diamond ...and to top it off...the diamond-laying ostrich upped and kicked the ol' pail...sad to say..it 'urt me 'eart to see it, it did...but, no worries, yeah.

Jedi_Master_Clark

12-24-2008, 04:42 PM

I've remember loving a mutant massacre when I first read it. Though I don't remember some of the finer points of the story anymore. Looks like I'll have to go back and reread the issue.

Can't wait till David R reads the brood issues. Some of my fav X-men titles were the brood.

david r

12-25-2008, 09:24 AM

Merry Christmas, to all X-fans! And a special cheer for Imraith Nimphais for being such a fun, happy poster.

xgeek52

12-25-2008, 09:36 AM

merry,merry david...

mutant masscare was among the best...

wolvie616

12-25-2008, 08:13 PM

merry christmas david

and wolvie and sabes fight! WOOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!:biggrin:

psycwave

12-25-2008, 11:15 PM

Mutant Massacre. Gosh that was such a scary yet entertaining read. Plus Psylocke!!! YAY!!!

david r

12-26-2008, 08:44 PM

david r

12-27-2008, 06:26 PM

This is Chris Claremont's thoughts on John Romita Jr's run:

"I think Johnny, at the point he was drawing the book, was still a work in progress. He was evolving into the Johnny we know today--the Johnny capable of doing the work he did with Frank Miller on "Daredevil: The Man Without Fear". While his term on X-MEN was succesful, I think it was more along the lines of refining his craft and planting the seeds of what was to blossom into something really magnificent on other books. We were sort of like Johnny's farm team."

Valjean999

12-29-2008, 09:30 AM

It truly is interesting all the changes X-MEN undergoes during this period. Especially after UXM #200. I have read that writer Chris Claremont felt he was tapped out of stories, that he'd been writing essentially the same core group for 11 years and was hitting writer's block. He marched into editor Ann Nocenti's office and requested to be removed from the book. Ann could see Claremont had simply hit the wall and needed to recharge his batteries.

Ann Nocenti told Claremont to go back out and try to revitalize the X-Men again, like what was done in the 1970s. The results are the many changes and new members we see usher into X-MEN in the second half of the 1980s.

I had never heard that, but it makes sense. In my opinion, many of his upcoming issues leave something to be desired; specifically, many of the issues that are between around 240 and around 270. Not all issues, certainly, but this is one era of the X Men where more often than not, I asked myself why I still read the book. I will reserve specific thoughts as to when we reach those issues with the recaps.

Valjean999

12-29-2008, 09:38 AM

Did I miss the recap for Annual #10, where Longshot joins the team? If I remember right, it takes place BEFORE the mutant massacre, because Kitty, Peter, and Kurt are on the team. And yet, Longshot wasnt around during the massacre. Then he started showing up in 214 (I think?) as if he had been there the whole time.

dewey412

12-29-2008, 03:57 PM

Nevets F

12-29-2008, 03:58 PM

I have been lurking this forum for so long, and this has been my favorite topic of all...David, you are doing an awesome job on this, as well as with Alpha Flight, X-Factor, and New Mutants...Keep up the great work, and get better as well....

Don't be a lurker! Come comment more often! Also, the Alpha Flight thread needs more people to comment! :)

CallMeGeoff

12-29-2008, 06:19 PM

Hello all! Been away for a minute. Holidays and such. Hope everyone had a good one.

Did I miss the recap for Annual #10, where Longshot joins the team? If I remember right, it takes place BEFORE the mutant massacre, because Kitty, Peter, and Kurt are on the team. And yet, Longshot wasnt around during the massacre. Then he started showing up in 214 (I think?) as if he had been there the whole time.

Yeah, the annual causes some continuity confusion. You are correct that the story takes place before the Mutant Massacre (I place it between 210 and 211), but the issue itself didn't come out until the end of the event, so that's why it hasn't been posted yet.

Even placed before the Massacre, though, it still doesn't quite fit with the monthly issues. Nightcrawler appears to be in perfect health in the annual, which doesn't really mesh with his injuries from 210. It can't take place before then because Rachel would be on the team and Psylocke would not. And our (not-so) merry mutants were shacking up in San Fran and the Morlock Tunnels during that time anyway.

And it's further confusing because Longshot is indeed absent during the Mutant Massacre. Maybe he was just laying low in the mansion or something because he was such a new addition, although that didn't stop them from taking Psylocke's help. Clearly, it's best not to think too hard about it.

Despite the headache of the chronology of the whole thing, X-Men Annual 10 is one of my favorite issues EVER. I've mentioned my love of old Mojo stories, and this one really takes the cake for me. It's pretty ridiculous from start to finish. I'm looking forward to reading everyone else's thoughts.

jade_nova

01-02-2009, 09:53 AM

I have been reading Uncanny X-Men through the Essential collections and it seems like X-Men has been getting darker more serious after the Mutant Massacre storyline. I have also noticed how fast Claremont has "aged" Kitty from her first appearance. She started off as a thirteen year old girl in body and thoughts and eventually becomes a mid to late teenage with the thoughts and attitudes of somebody in about their late twenties. I don't mind the physical aging because that has to happen but the mental aging is too fast.

david r

01-02-2009, 08:51 PM

Yes, Jade Nova, I too noticed Kitty Pryde growing older. It seems a logical thing since she's been with the team for a few years now. I haven't noticed her having thoughts like a person in their late 20s, though. But maybe this happens later.

I think the turning point for Kitty was her parents' divorce. Which was obviously painful for her to deal with. Followed by the events in the Kitty Pryde and Wolverine mini which was a truly pivotal moment for the young Pryde.

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/7/76/Sh1.gif

worstblogever

01-02-2009, 11:02 PM

CJ Lentze

01-03-2009, 05:10 AM

To me, Kitty's mental aging felt realistic and seamless. I would agree that events in her personal life, her parents' divorce, her romance and break-up with Peter, and the change in Ororo played a great part in her maturing and learning how hard the world can be. Of course, additionally, this is a thirteen-year old girl who was invited to join a superhero team, and she is often plunged into great danger. She is allowed to leave if she wants to, but she chooses the life of a superhero, because she believes she can make a difference that way. She handles herself well. Even in the darkening issues of Uncanny X-Men that precede the Mutant Massacre, and in issues of Excalibur, I feel that Kitty still comes across as youthful and relatively optimistic, the bright spark of the teams.

jade_nova, if you could name examples of Kitty's thoughts and attitudes you felt were too mature for her.

limerick

01-03-2009, 12:16 PM

Hello all! Been away for a minute. Holidays and such. Hope everyone had a good one.

Yeah, the annual causes some continuity confusion. You are correct that the story takes place before the Mutant Massacre (I place it between 210 and 211), but the issue itself didn't come out until the end of the event, so that's why it hasn't been posted yet.

Even placed before the Massacre, though, it still doesn't quite fit with the monthly issues. Nightcrawler appears to be in perfect health in the annual, which doesn't really mesh with his injuries from 210. It can't take place before then because Rachel would be on the team and Psylocke would not. And our (not-so) merry mutants were shacking up in San Fran and the Morlock Tunnels during that time anyway.

And it's further confusing because Longshot is indeed absent during the Mutant Massacre. Maybe he was just laying low in the mansion or something because he was such a new addition, although that didn't stop them from taking Psylocke's help. Clearly, it's best not to think too hard about it.

Despite the headache of the chronology of the whole thing, X-Men Annual 10 is one of my favorite issues EVER. I've mentioned my love of old Mojo stories, and this one really takes the cake for me. It's pretty ridiculous from start to finish. I'm looking forward to reading everyone else's thoughts.
CALLMEGEOFF,(Geoff?)I agree with you regarding the placement of Annual #10.I never could figure out exactly where it fitted in ?
Personally ,I don't think it's a good idea to introduce new team members/characters in annuals/one shots/limited series.Annuals ,in particular,were generally accepted to be slightly out of synch with the rest the story.Claremont did tend to make his annuals count and while a brilliant read(with amazing art) I think he goofs a bit with his continuity(on this annual).What was the Editor doing?

CallMeGeoff

01-03-2009, 03:58 PM

CALLMEGEOFF,(Geoff?)I agree with you regarding the placement of Annual #10.I never could figure out exactly where it fitted in ?
Personally ,I don't think it's a good idea to introduce new team members/characters in annuals/one shots/limited series.Annuals ,in particular,were generally accepted to be slightly out of synch with the rest the story.Claremont did tend to make his annuals count and while a brilliant read(with amazing art) I think he goofs a bit with his continuity(on this annual).What was the Editor doing?

I wonder if maybe the annual took longer to complete than they had hoped? Maybe it was supposed to come out before the Massacre? Or maybe Claremont came up with the massacre idea after the annual had already been started and he didn't have time to go back and make changes? Or maybe he just messed up.

And you may indeed call me Geoff! :smile:

limerick

01-03-2009, 04:29 PM

I wonder if maybe the annual took longer to complete than they had hoped? Maybe it was supposed to come out before the Massacre? Or maybe Claremont came up with the massacre idea after the annual had already been started and he didn't have time to go back and make changes? Or maybe he just messed up.

And you may indeed call me Geoff! :smile:
Actually ,youve probably nailed it there.Art Adams was a slow artist as far as I remember so if he was missing deadlines that would explain it.It would have meant some hasty rewrites from Claremont to write Longshot back out of the ongoing Uncanny due to delays on the Annual.Can anyone confirm this?

MartinRedmond

01-03-2009, 05:00 PM

It should take place between 214 and 215, or, perhaps, the best time location for it is it takes place "in your imagination".

MartinRedmond

01-03-2009, 05:02 PM

CALLMEGEOFF,(Geoff?)I agree with you regarding the placement of Annual #10.I never could figure out exactly where it fitted in ?
Personally ,I don't think it's a good idea to introduce new team members/characters in annuals/one shots/limited series.Annuals ,in particular,were generally accepted to be slightly out of synch with the rest the story.Claremont did tend to make his annuals count and while a brilliant read(with amazing art) I think he goofs a bit with his continuity(on this annual).What was the Editor doing?

Which was your favorite? I'm a hardcore nut, but in all honesty, I've never really liked any of the annuals. Though I still have 3 and 4 to read.

david r

01-03-2009, 08:40 PM

I had never read Annual #10 before, and assumed it happened AFTER the Mutant Massacre. The Essential X-Men books place it between UXM #213 and 214. So I assumed that's where it happened.

I now realize that isn't strictly the case. (Get prepared for Annual #10's review/summary tomorrow.) :smile:

And you may indeed call me Geoff!

Your last name isn't Johns, is it? :biggrin: just kidding!

I like the Annuals well enough. Some have higher quality than others. The Dracula one (#6) was particuarly good. But #8 was probably not as good as others.

worstblogever

01-04-2009, 02:52 AM

I had never read Annual #10 before, and assumed it happened AFTER the Mutant Massacre. The Essential X-Men books place it between UXM #213 and 214. So I assumed that's where it happened.

I now realize that isn't strictly the case. (Get prepared for Annual #10's review/summary tomorrow.) :smile:

Your last name isn't Johns, is it? :biggrin: just kidding!

I like the Annuals well enough. Some have higher quality than others. The Dracula one (#6) was particuarly good. But #8 was probably not as good as others.

Speaking of Annuals, since Mutant Massacre is over, does this mean we're about to get a look at a certain Avengers Annual, featuring a certain team of government employed, supposedly "reformed" mutants on it? :redface:

limerick

01-04-2009, 07:05 AM

Which was your favorite? I'm a hardcore nut, but in all honesty, I've never really liked any of the annuals. Though I still have 3 and 4 to read.
I don't have Annuals 1-4(I think the first 2 are reprints).I quite like the "treasure hunt" Annual(#7).It's good fun.I also like the Art Adams Annuals (#9,10,12)and the Alan Davis one(#11).Although I have the rest I haven't actually read after #18.At a push I'd probably go for #9--the Asgard one.Sheer class.

david r

01-04-2009, 09:15 AM

http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/97904389460.10.GIF

Uncanny X-Men Annual #10

"Performance"

1st appearance: the X-Babies

Another stupendously imaginative and outlandish Annual, with the debut of the Lucky One, Longshot, in the X-books. Plus, those cute little X-Babies. More Mojo craziness in his delirium of insanity called the Wildways. If you look closely here, you'll see the Joker (page 25) and Robbie the Robot (page 36) make cameos. KEEP SMILING FOR THE SPINELESS ONES!!

The X-Men and Magneto are having a training session in the Danger Room. (This takes place prior to Mutant Massacre. So shoot me.) Meanwhile, in the dimensional Wildways, Mojo, Spiral and Major Domo are watching the proceedings. Mojo decides to have a bit of fun, and teleports blonde-mullet character named Longhsot straight into the Danger Room. Ectoplasm splashes all in attendance!! Rogue and Kitty Pryde fall lost in love over the attractive Longshot (pictured with little hearts over their heads.) The stranger is taken to the infirmary. As the minutes tick by, the X-Men begin growing younger, in both body and spirit. The New Mutants notice the change and are worried. But the X-Men do not admit anything is amiss. Doug Ramsey uses a computer to show them that they are de-aging at an alarming rate. Doug and Warlock continue to investigate, and being the New Mutants already fought Mojo before, Cypher deduces Mojo is the cause of this regression.

The X-Men decide to leave the Mansion, and Magneto zaps the protesting New Mutants. The X-Babies (as they are now all around the age of 10) pile into a Rolls-Royce and drive off into the night. Arguing as young kids do! Much mayhem ensues when the X-Babies reach Central Park. They locate the Delacorte Theatre, where they enter and are snatched by the Spineless One, Mojo. Back at the Xavier Mansion, the New Mutants awaken and find a large chest in Ororo's attic. Inexplicably, costumes are within the chest for each of them. Each New Mutant dons the colorful new uniforms, as Danielle Moonstar says, "These are our graduation costumes. For tonight--and maybe, the rest of our lives--WE are the X-MEN!" Magik teleports them to the Delacorte Theatre, where the X-Babies attack them. The X-Babies have been given new uniforms as well, all fitted out by evil Mojo. Wolverine has a bulbose Mojo helmet on his little head. Magneto wears a WWII German uniform; Colossus fitted out in full-body armor, etc. Those pesky young tykes the Bratpack (from Longshot's mini-series) make cameos, watching the proceedings from the audience. As Spiral dances her exotic web, the New Mutants and X-Babies fight it out!!

For pages, the fight goes on...until finally Wolverine breaks through Mojo's power, and breaks free. Logan rips the Mojo helmet off his head and destroys it! One by one, the X-Babies escape Mojo's tampering, and revert to their true selves (in body and mind.)It's all quiet wild and bizarre. They assault Mojo himself. Shadowcat phasing through him, destroying the Mechasystems of Mojo's chair. Storm unleashes lightning down on Mojo. Rogue tries to absorb his psyche, as Psylocke psionically assaults him. Nightcrawler gives the final stroke, grabbing Spiral's magickal sword and bringing it down on Mojo's belly. But.....the cowardly Spineless One teleports away. He's gone and the mutants have won their freedom. The heroes talk Spiral into turning everything right again. The New Mutants put their new costumes away, back into the chest in Ororo's attic. They know THEY were the ones who won the day. Longshot appears to be staying with the mutants for a spell. The fantastic Annual ends with the lights coming up, as an audience of Spineless Ones cheer and roar this great movie that Mojo just showed them. The whole thing had been televised. Major Domo says preliminary indications are this one was Mojo's highest grossing success yet. Mojo smiles demonically in excitement and joy. He decides to leave Longshot with the X-Men. For now. He'll win their hearts, and then, Mojo will break them. He dons a pig's face and says "Bedee-Bedee-Bedee--th-th--that's ALL, Folks!"

My thoughts: Whenever Mojo is around, you know it's going to be a truly "unique" and bizarro story. This one was no exception. I liked it better than the recent New Mutants Annual #2 Mojo story. The X-Babies were cute and humorous. I wonder if artist Art Adams drew them one day on the side, and Chris Claremont decided to use those designs in a story? The team of Claremont/Adams always bring gold to the page. In honesty, this felt more like a New Mutants story, as they are the true heroes here. And even sort of "graduate" to X-Men for this one tale. Portents of things to come?? Longshot himself shows up but is essentially just the catalyst for the story. The Lucky One doesn't do a whole lot beyond teleporting into the Danger Room. What happened to Ricochet Rita and the outcome of the Longshot limited series? All in all, another superb Annual filled with topnotch story & art. It's like an epic adventure all it's own. Definitely worth the price in the back-issue bins.

CallMeGeoff

01-06-2009, 10:08 PM

Your last name isn't Johns, is it? :biggrin: just kidding!

Well, now that you mention it... No. :biggrin: [/QUOTE]

(This takes place prior to Mutant Massacre. So shoot me.)

I don't think Claremont even knows where this thing takes place, so no worries. Now is as good a time as any to read it. :smile:

I love the way Art Adams draws Mojo. He's so gross. And I especially love Wolverine in the Mojo mask. The part where he comes out of his brainwashing while slashing the wall around Karma is probably my favorite moment in the issue. She has this crazy hairy naked man coming toward her, wearing only a creepy Mojo mask, with razor sharp claws...that's gotta be pretty terrifying. Then he rips the mask off and slashes just about everywhere except where Karma is standing. Amazing.

I also enjoy Rogue's attempt to absorb Mojo. She can't even handle how gross he is.

I like Spiral's new look. I think I prefer her normal Hindu-inspired design, but this one works too. Really, she's pretty awesome whatever she looks like.

Longshot is an interesting addition. You can see why he maybe sat the Mutant Massacre out. He doesn't even know what water is! With that in mind, I wouldn't trust him in a fight just yet, especially one as dangerous as the massacre.

And finally, the last panel. Mojo mimicking Porky Pig with an actual severed pig's head. Love. This. Issue.

Imraith Nimphais

01-09-2009, 01:49 PM

limerick

01-09-2009, 02:03 PM

I will be burning in the deepest, hottest pits of hell anyways, so I will just go right out and say it...the x-babies are utter rot and I hatethemhatethemhatethem...that said, the artwork in this annual was nice.
I would agree with you to some extent.Although I enjoyed The X-babies in this annual I didn't really enjoy any future stories featuring them.I think it works once but it's not going anywhere so why bring them back?

Nevets F

01-09-2009, 02:07 PM

I have always found the X-Babies...ok. I don't love them but I don't hate them. I vaguely remember their very own oneshot. I don't remember if it was any good though.

They are cute though.

MartinRedmond

01-09-2009, 02:10 PM

Speaking of this annual, are the first few pages in everyone's (genuine) copy of this all messed up? I've never found a copy that wasn't mangled.

david r

01-09-2009, 08:08 PM

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/Xbabies.png

What I found interesting about this annual, was how it reversed the roles of the X-Men and New Mutants. The X-Men became the "X-Babies" (as the NM's were often called), while the New Mutants themselves became the X-Men. I also found the Rolls-Royce scene (with the X-Babies arguing) quite funny and rad.

@MartinRedmond, I have an original copy of this Annual and all the pages look fine. I didn't know many copies had mangled pages.

worstblogever

01-09-2009, 09:36 PM

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/Xbabies.png

*tries to supress nausea*

Ugh... X-Babies. That's all I can say about this issue, without blowing chunks in the thread, david. I'm sorry.

creaky

01-10-2009, 12:56 AM

I want to strangle each and every one of those little bastards and I'd make sure Longshot's death was extra painful.

david r

01-10-2009, 07:14 AM

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j186/sonic1983/XMenUnlimited50xB1.jpg

psycwave

01-10-2009, 07:24 AM

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j186/sonic1983/XMenUnlimited50xB1.jpg

Okay. That is the cutest.:smile:

LOL @ Wolverine

limerick

01-11-2009, 11:56 AM

About 3 years ago, i completed my X-Men collection of every X-Book from Giant Size #1-Current. Then, i went online and found a chronological list of X-comics, and read them in that order. It took about 6-7 months. I quite possibly went insane. Only my barber knows for sure.
You don't happen to know where that chronological order site is ,do you?I've been unable to locate one.Thanks

david r

01-11-2009, 05:23 PM

http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/05856107888.15.GIF

Avengers Annual #15

"Betrayal"

No, you have not stumbled onto the Avengers from the Beginning thread. This is still the X-Men, or at least mutants thread. Freedom Force are making the rounds of the Marvel Universe. They defeated the X-Men! They beat up X-Factor! And...oh my stars and garters..... they take on and defeat the combined might of the Avengers AND the West Coast Avengers!! You don't mess with Mystique's squad, apparently.

This huge Annual begins with a baseball game, played between the west and east coast branches of the Avengers. This is 1986 so we have Hercules, Captain America, Black Knight, Captain Marvel, Mockingbird, Iron Man, Tigra, Wonder Man and a few others playing an exhilarating 9 innings of America's favorite pastime. All at Royals Stadium, home of the Kansas City Royals. Hercules struggles at grasping wearing a baseball glove. After 7 pages of innocent fun, Freedom Force teleport smack dab into the game. You know they're bad guys, because they interrupt a baseball game. Freedom Force's lineup here is Mystique-leader, Destiny, the Blob, Spiral, Pyro, Avalanche and Spider-Woman. Mystique hands over warrants for the arrest of every acting member of the Avengers. Both West and East Coast. The warrants look legitimate, and the Avengers know that FF are indeed, a government sponsored group. The Avengers stand in collective shock. WHY are they under arrest? As you may guess, it doesn't take long before the fists are flying!!

What follows are many, many pages of spirited fighting between heroes and villains. Gov't sanctioned villains, by the way. The six-armed Spiral is definitely the most lethal member of FF, and takes down several Avengers. The baseball field is all but destroyed in the long minutes of battling, even Hercules rips out a water hose and sprays Pyro's firebird with it. Hawkeye's arrows bounce right off Blob's hide. Avalanche creates fissures which Avengers fall into. Spider-Woman is confused with her loyalties, as she does NOT like fighting super-heroes. Hercules fists become sandwiched in the folds of Blob's belly! Destiny stuns as she perceives the heroes' moves before they do. And so on. It's quite a spectacular, and long, battle. Just the right thing for a double-sized Annual (Decompressed did NOT exist in the 1980s! This sure isn't!) The battle ends with Spider-Woman, literally, clubbing Wonder Man's head with a pipe. Knocking him out. The Freedom Force have defeated both Avengers squad. I am shocked. They were even outnumbered! This stinks!!

Only Captain American remains conscious, as the Star-Spangled hero finds a payphone in the baseball stadium, and calls a government secretary. Yes, indeed, Freedom Force have been sent to capture the Avengers. Cap cannot believe it, and resigns to this fact. Cap gives up. FF teleport the unconscious Avengers to the Rocky Mountains. (I assume around NORAD headquarters.) When the heroes awaken, they stand before Henry Peter Gyrich, everyone's hated gov't stooge. Valerie Cooper, and Avengers liaison, Raymond Sikorsky. Gyrich mentions several incidents in which the Avengers acted outside the law. Including the Roger Stern story where the Vision attempted to take over all the world's computer systems (quite a good tale, BTW.) Gyrich gleefully mentions other incidents, which cast doubt on the Avengers' true loyalties. Plus, the government has a secret informer, who has spilled the beans on Earth's Mightiest Heroes. They are in deep doo-doo. Valerie Cooper seems very much AGAINST helping the heroes.

Gyrich says the Avengers will be detained until the full charges can be placed before a trial. The Avengers are taken to the Vault. A maximum security prison for super-powered beings. And each member is placed in a cell designed to contain their specific power. The Feds are NOT playing around. What saves our heroes is Spider-Woman. This new Freedom Force member is not kosher with what's gone down, and she sneaks into the Rocky Mountain sanctuary, and penetrates the Vault. A lot happens here, but Spider-Woman smashes enough equipment in the Vault, that the Avengers break out of their cells .They battle several Vault guards and make their escape into the surrounding territory. Once free, the Avengers locate a hidden cave, and decide to first find the person who betrayed them!! And they they will have their vengeance!!

My thoughts: I read this for Freedom Force's appearance. On the mention of Worstblogever. This Annual is huge with story. It starts out pretty silly with the baseball game, but the battle with Freedom Force goes on for many pages, and really showcases the powers of all the members. Spiral was especially good at taking down opponents. Honestly, this story gets even better once the Avengers are defeated and sentenced to the Vault. I felt this part was genuinely good, as Spider-Woman breaks into the Vault and the Avengers find ways to escape. Also, the confrontation between Gyrich, Cooper and the Avengers was well-played, and this special Annual ended with me genuinely wondering WHO the traitor is, and how the Avenges clear their name. Plus, it was drawn by Steve Ditko. But ultimately, I read this for Freedom Force, and they don't disappoint. They are yet to be beaten, and have defeated X-Men, X-Factor and Avengers. A pretty impressive achievement. Who knew they were so formidable?

Affinity

01-11-2009, 05:26 PM

http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/05856107888.15.GIF

http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/05856107888.15.GIF
Poor Destiny.

worstblogever

01-11-2009, 07:56 PM

My thoughts: I read this for Freedom Force's appearance. On the mention of Worstblogever. This Annual is huge with story. It starts out pretty silly with the baseball game, but the battle with Freedom Force goes on for many pages, and really showcases the powers of all the members. Spiral was especially good at taking down opponents. Honestly, this story gets even better once the Avengers are defeated and sentenced to the Vault. I felt this part was genuinely good, as Spider-Woman breaks into the Vault and the Avengers find ways to escape. Also, the confrontation between Gyrich, Cooper and the Avengers was well-played, and this special Annual ended with me genuinely wondering WHO the traitor is, and how the Avenges clear their name. Plus, it was drawn by Steve Ditko. But ultimately, I read this for Freedom Force, and they don't disappoint. They are yet to be beaten, and have defeated X-Men, X-Factor and Avengers. A pretty impressive achievement. Who knew they were so formidable?

Totally worth it, eh?

For me, it was good to see Pyro, Avalanche, Blob, and Spiral, in particular, giving some of Marvel's Icons such a hard time of it. Hercules and Hawkeye are no match for Blob? Pyro nearly cooks Iron Man in his own Armor!

This is the kind of fight that makes Mutant League, coincidentally beginning tomorrow, great. Back then, fights were settled this way in comics, not with just splash pages, and if you were lucky, two combatants would be knocked out on-panel, with the rest of them just in the background, or off-panel.

Good stuff.

david r

01-12-2009, 05:14 PM

Yeah, it was worth it. Just to see Freedom Force rack up another victory. Now they need to take on the Justice League of America to see what they're really made of. My only complaint with them was Avalanche's atrociously bad costume. Otherwise, Mystique has rounded up a potent group. Give the woman a raise! :biggrin:

And yes, Destiny does look out of place on that cover. Captain America was really the one Avenger who did NOT get beaten down. He could have gotten away. Overall, the art was the weakest link in this Annual. It wasn't very good. But a good story.

MartinRedmond

01-12-2009, 06:34 PM

It ends with the Avengers being fugitives?? WTF? :biggrin: Destiny deserves that shield to the face for being a little CHEATER and a squeal.

david r

01-13-2009, 08:33 PM

It ends with the Avengers being fugitives?? WTF? :biggrin:

It sure does. I'm wondering whether I should buy the follow-up Annual to check out what happens. I'm guessing Freedom Force does not play a part.

david r

01-13-2009, 08:35 PM

http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/97792366288.214.GIF

Uncanny X-Men #214

"With Malice Toward All"

This mystery villain Malice takes the spotlight, literally, here. Malice possesses Dazzler and several X-Men in this issue. More follow-up from the Mutant Massacre. The world is turning more hostile and deadly by the day for the X-Men.

Dazzler has been playing keyboards in Lila Cheney's [/B band. Alison Blaire appreciates Lila's help, but on one particular concert night, something is wrong with Dazzler. She is sweating, wearing an odd pendant around her neck, and she cuts loose with her bright, colorful lights. Her mutant power dazzles the audience and Lila Cheney and her rock band are not very happy with this move. After the final curtain, Lila confronts Alison about this stunt. With little lights shining around Dazzler, she says she no longer wants to be second best, and quits on Lila. The reader now switches to Charles Xavier's Mansion."The house is silent. The mood somber, following the Mutant Massacre. It's natural peace and tranquility shattered, perhaps forever." Storm, Rogue and Psylocke are looking over the smashed ruins of [B] Cerebro. It was badly smashed by Sabretooth in issue 213. Rogue looks up into Cerebro's mechanical innards, and cannot make heads-or-tails of the electronics. Only Charles Xavier would really know how to fix the thing.

Soon, a telephone call arrives by Lila Cheney. Lila informs the X-Men of Dazzler's perplexing behavior. Thus, do Wolverine, Storm, Rogue and Psylocke head off to Dallas, to investigate. They arrive the next evening at the Jayroam's nightclub, where the 4 X-Men discover Dazzler dancing up on stage in all her wild glory. However, unknown to them, Dazzler has been possessed by a being named Malice. The only identifying feature of Malice is the pendant worn around the person's neck. The X-Men try to contact Dazzler in the club, but Malice/Dazzler attacks them. This begins a long, fight sequence in which Malice hops from mutant to mutant, possessing each one and using her victim to attack the others. Wolverine obviously causes much damage. Also, once Malice possesses Rogue, Malice uses Rogue's powers to destroy several cars out in the Dallas street. Malice causes much destruction, then stands for the reporter and TV cameras to advertise to the world that "ROGUE OF THE X-MEN CAUSED THIS MAYHEM!!" This is very bad for mutant public relations.

Finally, the other mutants find Malice/Rogue and assault her. Storm is the one who finally defeats Malice, as Malice attempts to possess her. Ororo uses her ironclad will, and her indominatable strength to rip the Malice pendant from her neck. She appears to imprison Malice within the thing, as a result. Malice defeated, the X-Men invite Dazzler to join their ranks. All are badly shaken though, when Wolverine attacks Storm, thinking she is still controlled by Malice. Somehow, Logan's animal senses read her wrong (this did not make a whole lot of sense.) The assembled mutants wonder if any one of them might still be under Malice's spell. Can they trust themselves in the days ahead? Wolverine says, "...Then the time's come to pack things up an' go our separate ways--because in all the ways that really matter...the X-Men are through." And Storm replies, "Not yet, Wolverine. Not without a FIGHT."

My thoughts: Dazzler joins Psylocke and Longshot as a new member. This Malice subplot has been interesting, as it plays into Malice being a Marauder, but it's not really explained why Alison Blaire was singled out by the Marauders to get rid of. And even then, Malice DID NOT kill Dazzler at all, but used her light powers for her own enjoyment. (I am assuming here Malice is a female, as it's not adequately stated.) The fight scene in the disco club was good, with Malice jumping from mutant to mutant. Storm's defeat of Malice though, was a bit vague and unrealistic. Ororo defeated Malice because Ororo was already in touch with her negative feelings?? Thus, Malice could not use them to control her? I didn't really get that. I also was taken aback by Wolverine's words on the last page. Are the X-Men calling it a day? The Mutant Massacre has cut them to the core.

worstblogever

01-14-2009, 02:16 AM

The good? Dazzler joins the team.

The bad? Malice is just defeated because Storm's a tough nut to crack. That's... not that interesting. And why would Malice possess Storm at all? With no powers, that's the worst person to hop into.

Then trying to understand why Malice, as a Marauder, did all this as a phase of Sinister's plan. Stall tactic? That's the only thing that makes sense to me. That, and the bad PR moment, to further hamstring the X-Men in the public's eye.

But why in light of everything the X-Men are dealing with... that they go on the word of sometimes ally/sometimes not Lila Cheney, half-way across the country because Dazzler UPSTAGED her to investigate?

This issue's far from the best written one under CC, in spite of the landmarks of 1st Malice and Dazzler joining up.

worstblogever

01-14-2009, 02:17 AM

It sure does. I'm wondering whether I should buy the follow-up Annual to check out what happens. I'm guessing Freedom Force does not play a part.

In the West Coast Avengers Annual, I believe as the Avengers have escaped, Freedom Force is shown to be chomping at the bit, wanting another piece of them, but Gyrich opts to try a different approach.

And of course, the Avengers clear their name.

MartinRedmond

01-14-2009, 09:17 AM

Sharing Dazzler's body must've debilitated Malice. Or, maybe, since Wolverine was planning on killing the next person possessed by Malice, Malice chose the X-Men leader strategically so that nutjobverine would kill Storm. You have to keep in mind back then, that Wolverine was still borderline psychotic.

I say either explanation is as good as the other.

Push You Down

01-14-2009, 11:42 AM

It sure does. I'm wondering whether I should buy the follow-up Annual to check out what happens. I'm guessing Freedom Force does not play a part.

In the follow up annual-

Spoiler- Freedom Force does not play a part but the traitor is still tied to the X-universe. Quicksilver is revealed to be the government informant. Pietro's plum full of crazy again and wants to bring down his old allies. His cannon fodder are the perenial loser team of the Zodiac.
End Spoiler.

david r

01-14-2009, 08:20 PM

Thanks for the UXM #214 comments. I agree this is not Claremont's best. Though still entertaining, it didn't have as much story content as most CC's books of the time. Barry Windsor-Smith did a nice job on art, though.

As for Malice, is Malice a male or female? I've always assumed Malice was female. But all we see here is a ghost-like image. So which is it, a boy or girl? :confused:

I am also intrigued by that pendant Malice's victims wore around their neck. Recall, Selene wore a similiar pendant when she met Friedrich von Roehm and entered the Hellfire Club. Could there be a connection??

Thanks all for the West Coast Avengers Annual info. I will probably get this one to read the story outcome.

limerick

01-16-2009, 06:20 PM

david r

01-17-2009, 07:28 AM

The lack of a consistent roster was writer Chris Claremont reshaping the team. Out were Kitty Pryde, Nightcrawler and Colossus. And in were new members Psylocke, Longshot and Dazzler. You can see it happening very quickly, and Claremont used the Mutant Massacre to begin this process. I believe CC was a little burned out of certain X-Men (how many different ways can you utilize a teleporter and a metal man? After 12 years before running out of stuff?) So Claremont is retooling the X-Men.

Limerick, I agree about confusion over Malice's influence. Other than making her victims sweat profusely, she does different things to each one. Dazzler seemed to still be in control of herself under Malice. While Wolverine and Rogue were out-and-out possessed. And Storm could fight Malice off and win. So perhaps Malice can be restrained by certain hosts, while others are less capable of fighting off Malice's power.

creaky

01-17-2009, 04:22 PM

I believe CC was a little burned out of certain X-Men (how many different ways can you utilize a teleporter and a metal man? After 12 years before running out of stuff?)

How many ways can you utilize a guy with claws coming out of his knuckles?

david r

01-17-2009, 08:41 PM

How many ways can you utilize a guy with claws coming out of his knuckles?

:biggrin: So true, but there was no way Chris Claremont was going to let Wolverine go. Frankly, I'm surprised he let Kitty Pryde go after the Mutant Massacre, as she is a favorite of his. But let's face facts, after 12 years, Claremont felt he'd been writing the same main core group (Wolverine, Colossus, Storm, Nightcrawler) and wanted a change. Those changes began in 1986, specifically with the Mutant Massacre. The rest is history.

CallMeGeoff

01-17-2009, 08:49 PM

Thoughts on #214
--Agree with general consensus that this was not the X-mens' finest hour.The lack of a consistent roster was hurting the continuity a little.The lack of a regular artist was hurting them a lot.
--I didn't enjoy the BWS art as much as in #205.I don't think Bob Wiacek inking suits his style.

While I agree that this issue isn't great, it is the very first X-Men back issue that I ever got. Thus, it is cherished.

Regarding the art, I think the colors have a lot to do with it as well. If I'm not mistaken, the last three issues that BWS did the art for were also colored by him. The colors in this issue were not bad at all, but when Windsor-Smith isn't doing everything, it just isn't the same.

--I don't quite understand the exact nature of Malice's mind control.Rather than being an outright host taking over the victim's body,she(?) seems to leave the basic personality intact but corrupts it.Hence Dazzler refers to her past battle with Rogue while Wolverine and Rogue seem to retain accents and personality traits even when under the influence of Malice

Limerick, I agree about confusion over Malice's influence. Other than making her victims sweat profusely, she does different things to each one. Dazzler seemed to still be in control of herself under Malice. While Wolverine and Rogue were out-and-out possessed. And Storm could fight Malice off and win. So perhaps Malice can be restrained by certain hosts, while others are less capable of fighting off Malice's power.

Perhaps Malice has better luck possessing people when they don't know it's coming? With Dazzler, it seems Malice took control somewhat gradually (plus, Dazzler wasn't convinced Malice was real). This probably allowed Malice to get deeper into Dazzler's psyche, where she had access to memories and emotions that made for a sort of hybrid person. Rogue and Wolverine knew something was fishy, but they didn't know exactly what they were dealing with. This could have allowed Malice to take control of them more easily than she could with Storm, since they were taken by surprise. And since Malice had to act fast, maybe she didn't have time to really dig into their psyches, resulting in a more traditional possession. When she tried to take control of Storm, however, she wasn't successful because Storm knew what was coming, and was ready and able to defend herself. If Rogue or Wolverine had known what they were up against, it seems likely that they too could have resisted Malice's influence.

lol, did that make any sense at all??? Sorry if I'm rambling.:redface:

david r

01-17-2009, 09:02 PM

Geoff, I think you may have something there about Storm. Ororo was the only one who knew Malice was about to possess her. Thus, she was prepared and maybe this explains why her will could stop Malice. It's a better explanation than I've come up with.

Below is an unused Barry Windsor-Smith page. Possibly for UXM #214...

http://comicartfans.com/Images/Category_2757/subcat_14736/RDSmithX-men.jpg

david r

01-18-2009, 07:45 AM

http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/97792366288.215.GIF

Uncanny X-Men #215

"Old Soldiers"

1st appearance: Crimson Commando, Super Sabre, Stonewall

My X-Men journey continues, as Alan Davis draws his first ever proper issue of UNCANNY X-MEN. His style is quite good, though many characters just look "British" to me. :cool: Their faces anyway. How can that be? But new characters enter the fold here. The X-Men are still reeling from the Mutant Massacre. I just love this stuff.

The issue begins with the return of Madelyne Pryor to these pages. For the first time, we readers see the airplane crash unfold that we've heard so much about, with only one survivor: Maddie!! Pryor walks out of the flames and death, with the "Phoenix Bird" hovering over her. Uh-Oh. But it's all a dream, as in the current times, Madelyne has lost her baby Nathan. She is being chased through the streets of San Francisco by Arclight and Scalphunter of Marauders fame. Maddie loses the chase, and Scalphunter shoots her with multiple gunshot wounds!!! Somehow, Madelyne lives and is taken to a hospital. She awakens from her coma, and whispers "Am...Am I alive? Pryor. My name is Madelyne Pryor." Meanwhile, in the hangar of Professor Charles Xavier's School, the X-Men are loading their wounded onto a Blackbird. Colossus, Nightcrawler and Kitty Pryde are within cellls, awaiting transport to Moira MacTaggert's Muir Island Facility. Along with the surviving Morlocks, Storm feels Muir Island is the best, safest place for them. Longshot and Dazzler are shown conversing together, for the first time. Longshot quite likes the X-Men, and feels he belongs with them. Psylocke, Rogue, Longshot, Dazzler, Callisto and the wounded lift off in the Blackbird. Leaving Storm and Wolverine, who other business to attend to.

Logan is tense and quiet, worried about his enhanced senses lying to him in the last issue. As they drive late at night, Logan smokes up a storm as Storm and he tensely talk. (This is well-illustrated by Alan Davis.) They arrive at the charred ruins of Sara Grey's house, which was firebombed in X-Factor #12. Sara Grey, Jean's older sister, and her 2 children, are nowhere to be found. The house was bombed by anti-mutant assholes. As the 2 X-Men survey the scene, Logan suddenly gets the scent of "HER! NOT HER! NOT JEAN!" Wolverine goes wild from the scent, and in his shock, mistakenly slugs Ororo from behind. Storm falls to the ground, unconscious, as Wolverine runs off half-cocked. The story now slips to the Blackbird, where Shadowcat's discorporating "ghost-form" wanders the plane. Kitty is slowly dying, her molecules coming apart ever so slowly, and she cannot even speak now. Kitty sees Longshot asleep in a chair, and remarks how BEAUTiful he is. Kitty's ghost kisses him on the lips, and Longshot awakens astonished. Kitty runs away embarrassed, as Longshot turns and is upset as he could sense her actual being and consciousness. And the Death that is stalking her.

The story now gets to the nitty gritty. Ororo's eyes open, not back at Sara Grey's house, but in a dungeon. She breaks out and finds herself in a house up in a forest somewhere. The house is littered with rifles, animal heads on the walls, awards, swords and a ripped Nazi flag on display. Where the hell is she?? Someone has kidnapped her!! Ororo spies 3 figures walking in from the woods, and soon she meets Stonewall, Super Sabre and Crimson Commando!! A wild hand-to-hand fight ensues, with Ororo powerless fighting off these new mutants. Ororo does her best, but is overwhelmed. Super Sabre is a speedster, Stonewall cannot be knocked down (like Juggernaut). I'm not sure WHAT Crimson Commando does. These 3 middle-aged men are hunters. They fought in the "Big Deuce", in World War II. And formed a bond there. However, once the Cold War came, they were tossed aside, warriors given their pink slips by the Feds, who would afraid of launching a third World War. These men then began fighting crime on their own, as vigilantes. They saw their nation going down the toilet with hippies, druggies and the whole counter-culture thing, and decided to take matters in their own hands. They find scum and bring them to their mountain retreat, where they set the vermin free in the woods, hunt them down and eliminate them. Think "The Most Dangerous Game", but with mutants hunting human beings. A novel idea. They have one human female here, who was a drug-dealer. With her is Storm, who they wrongly think was looting Sara Grey's house. Storm and the frightened human are sent running into the woods. Given a head-start before the 3 mutants come after them on the hunt. Storm realizes Wolverine won't be coming to rescue her, and she is on her own. To save herself and this poor girl. And she's powerless!

My thoughts: A pretty solid issue. I like how events from X-Factor are being felt in the main book. Madelyne Pryor and Sara Grey, for instance. I don't remember this Sara Grey subplot at all. Is is she ever heard from again?? Super Sabre is awesome!! I love speedsters and it's cool to see one in the X-books. Quicksilver is really an Avenger. I like the back-story on Sabre, Stonewall and Crimson Commando. The World War II/Hippie drug Generation culture war is great fodder for stories, and Marvel used this effectively here as 3 mutants who were cast away once they weren't needed. But were not happy with the way America had gone, and thus, decided to fight "crime" in their own way. Or their definition of crime. How long have these guys been doing this? Are they mutant serial killers then? I think Alan Davis' best work here is the detailed panels illustrating the many prizes and trophies in the forest home, on Page 15. And on Page 10, the descriptive way Davis drew Ororo and Logan's faces on their night drive. Logan's cigarette smoke filling the car almost resembles Malice, who is the topic of their heated conversation. Madelyne Pryor and her whereabouts is FINALLY revealed,and it's long past due. While Cyclops is running around Anchorage, Alaska, losing his mind & fighting Master Mold, his poor wife has been blasted by Marauders and left for dead. What happened to baby Nathan? Why are the Marauders after Maddie? More questions than answers here.