Any one remember Omniverse?

[Bobb]

I have just discovered a copy I own of the fanzine book published by the late Mark Gruenwald, and Dean Mullany. (Not sure on the spelling.) I forgot how well written and engaging this book was in addressing the Multiverse worlds of comic fiction. While I cannot find my copy of #1, (and believe me I have searched the net for a copy to buy!) I remember a great article along the line of Did Howard the Duck ever meet Scrooge McDuck.

Most of the friends I used to discuss this with have either passed away, moved away, (and Yes Mark Waid I am looking at you,) or I have lost contact with these days.

So anyone remember, and want to talk/type?

Bobb

[Jolly Mon]

Don't know about Omniverse (sounds cool), but I would pay money to see Howard the Duck meet up with Scrooge McDuck. Throw in Donald and Howard can make fun of his speech impediment.

[JKCarrier]

I have #1 & 2 -- super-hardcore fanboyishness at its finest. And I mean that in the best possible way. :D It's not hard to see how Gruenwald went from this to the Offical Handbook of the Marvel Universe.

Did issue #3 ever come out? I remember seeing it advertised, but I've never seen an actual copy.

[Shellhead]

I have issue #2. It was great. My favorite article was the cover story, the speculation about the connections between Doctor Doom and Kang, as well as the other time traveller identities, like Immortus, Rama-Tut and the Scarlet Centurion.

[Kirk G]

I have issue #2. It was great. My favorite article was the cover story, the speculation about the connections between Doctor Doom and Kang, as well as the other time traveller identities, like Immortus, Rama-Tut and the Scarlet Centurion.

Any chance of a link to that Doom/Kang discussion or a reprint to see it in person?
Thanks,
Dyed in the wool Silver Age Marvel fan,
Kirk

[JKCarrier]

Any chance of a link to that Doom/Kang discussion or a reprint to see it in person?

IIRC, the upshot of the article was that, rather than Doom being Kang's ancestor, Doom and Kang and Rama Tut and Immortus were all the exact same person. It's an appealing theory -- Doom and Kang have pretty much the same personality anyway, and I like the idea that eventually Doom gets over himself and becomes the relatively benevolent Rama Tut II.

[Kirk G]

I always favored the version of the theory that suggests that rather than being DOOM's decendant, Kang was actually decended from Tony Stark. Think about it. The connection to Doom was tenuous at best. First, the ancestor wore a suit of armor. Two, he was technologically advanced. Three, he could aford lots of equipment. Four, we have seen that Kang looks ALOT like tony Stark when unarmored. Five, if the ancestor had ARMOR, it don't follow that it has to bee Dr. Doom...could have been Iron Man. Six, Tony has had several opportunities to acquire Doom's time-machine. Seven, history may have made some confusion between two armour suited major figures of the 20th century over the years. Eight, Tony is the designing futurist who builds toward the future.

Think about it. It makes more sense that Kang is a decendant of Tony than Von Doom... though the confusion could be understandable after years of dark ages between our time and Kang's future.

Plus, when unveiled, Kang looks alot more like Tony Stark than Dr. Doom when un-suited.

It's possible that Tony has yet to come into possession of Victor's time machine, explaining how Kang comes across plans for the device in the future...and assumes that it is Doom that is his ancestor, not tony... but he might have been wrong when he was Rama-Tut and lept to the wrong conclusion in Avengers Annual #2...or FF #19, etc...

[Shellhead]

IIRC, the upshot of the article was that, rather than Doom being Kang's ancestor, Doom and Kang and Rama Tut and Immortus were all the exact same person. It's an appealing theory -- Doom and Kang have pretty much the same personality anyway, and I like the idea that eventually Doom gets over himself and becomes the relatively benevolent Rama Tut II.

At the time it was written, that article was very plausible. Subsequent events make it seem less accurate now. For example, we've seen that Scarlet Centurion is from a different reality's future. Still, it was a good try. I particularly liked the speculation that Rama-Tut wore that chin thing and Immortus had a beard, because they were both covering up the facial scar that Victor von Doom was reluctant to reveal. Kang always wore that mask that covered up his face completely, though revealing his facial features somewhat.

[dan bailey]

I wonder if there's any chance TwoMorrows or someone of that stripe would reprint these, as they did various Legion Outpost articles awhile back? Probably there's not enough demand &/or material, sad to say ...

I've never seen an issue. I remember seeing ads in various zines back in the late '70s & being intrigued, but I never pulled the trigger. *sigh*

[T GUy]

IIRC, the upshot of the article was that, rather than Doom being Kang's ancestor, Doom and Kang and Rama Tut and Immortus were all the exact same person. - JKCarrier

I think the Omniverse article postdates Steve Englehart's revelation that Kang/Rama-Tut/Immortus/Rama-Tut(reprise) are one and the same in the Avengers in... early 1975? Ca. Giant-Size Avengers 2, anyway.

[Bobb]

I have #1 & 2 -- super-hardcore fanboyishness at its finest. And I mean that in the best possible way. :D It's not hard to see how Gruenwald went from this to the Offical Handbook of the Marvel Universe.

Did issue #3 ever come out? I remember seeing it advertised, but I've never seen an actual copy.

I think #3 is much like the "Last Dangerous Visions", there have always been rumours, but never proof it was or ever will be real.

Bobb

[Shellhead]

- JKCarrier

I think the Omniverse article postdates Steve Englehart's revelation that Kang/Rama-Tut/Immortus/Rama-Tut(reprise) are one and the same in the Avengers in... early 1975? Ca. Giant-Size Avengers 2, anyway.

No, Omniverse #2 was published a few years later. '75 is about right on that Englehart storyline, but Omniverse was published at least a couple of years later. Issue #2 had references to the (then) recent events involving Thor and the Celestials, a storyline that wrapped up with Thor #300. IIRC, back then, Thor was numbered exactly 100 issues higher than the Avengers, so Thor #300 would have been on the stands the same month as Avengers #200.

[Kirk G]

Speaking of odd numbering coincidences, I didn't realize that the X-men and Avengers were numbered originally the same, and that Tales of Suspense and Tales to Astonish were only one or two numbers off from being in synch!

And Nick Fury, Agent of Sheild, only ran for about 3 years from Strange Tales #135 to 168, less than 36 issues of 10 pages each installment, before Steranko graduated to his own full size book. That means, less than 300 pages to reprint in a Marvel Masterworks OR in an Essential Sheild book!

Ditto for the Human Torch in Strange Tales, circa issue 101 to 134... some idea, and yes, he got his own Masterwork also!

PS: TO stay on topic, I vote YES, I'd like to see Tomorrows reprint two volumes, or combine them into one reprinting of these two classic fanzines. Any chance, John?

[T GUy]

Me:
I think the Omniverse article postdates Steve Englehart's revelation...

Shellhead:
No, Omniverse #2 was published a few years later.

Thanks for confirming that.

Kirk G:
Speaking of odd numbering coincidences, I didn't realize that the X-men and Avengers were numbered originally the same

That'd be because they both started in the same month, September, 1963; The Avengers pretty swiftly raced ahead by dint of being promoted to monthly before the X-Men.

, and that Tales of Suspense and Tales to Astonish were only one or two numbers off from being in synch!

I think that's a similar story, though obviously Suspense went to monthly soon after Astonish.

And Nick Fury, Agent of Sheild, only ran for about 3 years from Strange Tales #135 to 168, less than 36 issues of 10 pages each installment, before Steranko graduated to his own full size book. That means, less than 300 pages to reprint in a Marvel Masterworks OR in an Essential Sheild book!

10 pages from 135 to 168 is 34 issues at 10pp; this is followed by 15 issues of Nick's own title at 20 pages apiece for 300 pages. Total is 640 pages - ten Masterworks or two slightly slim Essentials. I suspect that the Essentials might be bulked out with appearances elsewhere.

[zilch]

Loved Omniverse. Big influence on my fannish tastes. Another zine, Collectors Dream, by George Olishivsky and Tony Frutti (of Marvel Index fame) with more stuff along the same lines. When they went belly up, a couple articles appeared elsewhere, such as a Marvel Family Tree and a DC birthday article (different than the info from the calender). An "interview" with Johnny Storm about the early years of FF, very cool and much fun. A chronology of the first three or years of FF, set in "real time" using clues from the stories.

Of course, all of this lead me to do an Earth-2 chronology, which lead to (post-Crisis) a DCU chronology, which lead to all the crap ive thrown up on the Web over the last (nearly) 10 years....

[rick]

I have heard about Omniverse for some 30 years, but despite working in almost a dozen comic stores over the years, I have never seen a single issue of it.

I would love to get my hands on the run.

[Shellhead]

I found my copy of issue #2. When I get a chance (i.e., when my girlfriend isn't busy playing one of her free trial computer games), I will post some quotes from that Kang/Doom article, as well as a summary of the articles from that issue.

[Kirk G]

Loved Omniverse. Big influence on my fannish tastes. Another zine, Collectors Dream, by George Olishivsky and Tony Frutti (of Marvel Index fame) with more stuff along the same lines. When they went belly up, a couple articles appeared elsewhere, such as a Marvel Family Tree and a DC birthday article (different than the info from the calender). An "interview" with Johnny Storm about the early years of FF, very cool and much fun. A chronology of the first three or years of FF, set in "real time" using clues from the stories.

Of course, all of this lead me to do an Earth-2 chronology, which lead to (post-Crisis) a DCU chronology, which lead to all the crap ive thrown up on the Web over the last (nearly) 10 years....

Inquiring minds want to know more about this.
When can you share it all...???

[Kirk G]

I found my copy of issue #2. When I get a chance (i.e., when my girlfriend isn't busy playing one of her free trial computer games), I will post some quotes from that Kang/Doom article, as well as a summary of the articles from that issue.

Go, Shellhead, Go!
Tell that girlfriend to either vacate the computer or move out!
Inquiring minds want to KNOW! Tell her to get the priorities STRAIGHT, and move over! NOW! :D

[Bobb]

I have heard about Omniverse for some 30 years, but despite working in almost a dozen comic stores over the years, I have never seen a single issue of it.

I would love to get my hands on the run.

I saw a copy of #2 on eBay a few weeks ago. I asked him about #1 and he said he would keep an eye out for me.

I think it was a buy it now, so it may still be there.

Bobb

[rick]

I saw a copy of #2 on eBay a few weeks ago. I asked him about #1 and he said he would keep an eye out for me.

I think it was a buy it now, so it may still be there.

Bobb


Thanks for the suggestion, but it was gone when I took a look.

Good idea though.

[Shellhead]

Omniverse ("The Journal of Fictional Reality") #2. The colorful cover is a montage of images including Dr. Doom in the center, surrounded by Scarlet Centurion, Kang, Thulsa Doom (!), Rama-Tut, Immortus, an unidentified individual using Doom's time travel device, and a young Doom looking at an open chest of gypsy treasures.

Cover: The Faces of Doom, by Pete Iro
pg. 2: Table of contents (on inside cover)
pg. 3: Editorial: Of Omniversal Concern
pg. 4: The Source of Superman's Power, by Peter Gillis
pg. 7: Who Needs Comics When There Are Superheroes in Real Life?, by Rich Morrissey

pg. 11: Letters: Reality Lines (including a letter from Roy Thomas)
pg. 12: The Lives and Times of Doctor Doom, by Frank Lovece and Walt Hellstrom

pg. 21: Case Studies: Science Fiction, by Gene Entwender
pg. 25: From Ragnorak to Apokolips, by Mark Gruenwald
pg. 31: Reality Spotlight: Avengers, by Dean Mullaney
pg. 38: The Case of the Divergent Detective (Sherlock Holmes), by Meloney M. Crawford

pg. 42: Case Studies: Comics, by Kim Thompson
pg. 48: Resurrection in the DC Multiverse, by Edward B. Via
Back Cover: O Grave, Where is Thy Victory?, by Jerry Ordway

There is additional artwork throughout the issue, by Mark Alexander, Craig Anderson, Rich Bruning, William Bukowski, San de la Rosa, Mark Gruenwald (!), Dennis Jensen, Wiliam Poplaski and Bill Neville. The editor is Mark Gruenwald and the associate editor is Dean Mullaney.

[Shellhead]

"The Lives and Times of Doctor Doom

"Doctor Doom, monarch of a nation; Rama-Tut, pharoah of the Nile; Scarlet Centurion, ruler of an Earth; Kang, conqueror of the future; Immortus, master of time.

"These are the men that try time's soul.

"It has been hypothesized that these five persona are but one person, each a manifestation of the same being. There is evidence that they are indeed related: various aspects of their saga have been recounted often and by many. While the relative truth of certain facets is unquestionable, there are contradictions, perhaps even deceit, in the annals, a progression of secrets known only to Immortus, the most knowledgable of the purported chain. It is Immortus who, alone in his chambers, states, "Five lives have I known... Oh , that all might know what wonders there are to this firmament." (footnote #1: Avengers #133, March 1975, p. 6.)

From there, the article dedicates sections to the various personalities, in this order: Doctor Doom, Rama-Tut, Scarlet Centurion, Kang, and Immortus. There is a nice two-page spread showing six figures in this order: Doctor Doom, young Rama-Tut, Scarlet Centurion, Kang, old Rama-Tut, and Immortus, which matches the proposed timeline in this article. Another piece of artwork that straddles portions of pages 16 and 17 depicts Doom playing chess against Doom, with chess pieces resembling Doom, young Rama-Tut and Scarlet Centurion on one side of the board, and pieces resembling Grandmaster and two figures I didn't recognize. Like all interior artwork in this issue, these pictures were rendered in black-and-white.

Overall, the article is both scholarly and interesting, and includes a total of 55 footnotes that refer to specific issues and even page numbers. Judging by Dean Mullaney's Avengers article elsewhere in this issue, Omniverse #2 was published shortly after Avengers #174, as there was no discussion of Korvac's huge battle with the Avengers. So the big Doom/Kang article talks about Kang's most recent appearance, when he was apparently disintegrated in the 1800's while battling Avengers and cowboys. The article dismisses Kang's apparent demise as merely one alternate version of Kang among many potential ones.

[Cei-U!]

I used to have a copy of Omniverse #2 and regret selling it back in '89 along with all my issues of Comics Journal, Amazing Heroes, Comics Interview and assorted other fanzines. I'd love to find another copy and to finally see #1.

Of course, Marvel (in the person of John Byrne) later established that Kang is actually descended from Nathaniel Richards, father of Reed. But what few people may know is that Roy Thomas once implied* that K the C was actually descended from Dr. Doome, a Golden Age foe of the Seven Soldiers of Victory who was lost in time after his one-and-only appearance in Leading Comics #3 (a story RT retold in All-Star Squadron #29).

Cei-U!
I summon the obscure reference!

*I asked Roy about this not long ago. He said he doesn't remember consciously intending the inference but couldn't definitively rule out having it in the back of his mind back then.

[Kirk G]

Now THAT is obscure....

[Kirk G]

Anybody got a scan of this cover of Omnivers #2 Many Lives of Doom artwork to share? (I'm betting that the unidentified person using Doom's Time Machine will turn out to be an image of the man who becomes Rama-Tutt after building the time machine to take him back, or something like that. But I can't wait to see the full image...

[MichikoS]

Here you go:

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/elbert_coalwell/omniverse_2.jpg

Here's #1 as a bonus:

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/elbert_coalwell/omniverse_1.jpg

Michi

[Blackhawkk]

I remember getting those off the stands back in the '70s! Number 1 really stood out for me as it speculated that there were more than just an Earth 1 and Earth 2. A fine article about how those 1950s stories fit on another earth and all those Haney Brave & Bold stories took place there along with the Super-Sons stories in World's Finest.

Ah... the days of the multiverse... Wait! They're back!

[FrankLovece]

My God, does this bring back memories: My first magazine cover story was for Omniverse 2. I'm afraid I have to admit that I still get a kick out of the inverted Thomas Paine of "These are men who try Time's soul"...!

Thank you for the kind words about the Dr. Doom piece, and for posting images I haven't seen in years. I'd like to raise a virtual glass to toast the late Mark Gruenwald and the great Dean Mullaney, the publisher and, if I remember right, co-editors ... and also old friends. A few of us remember Mark and his then-girlfriend's W. 88th Street apartment in Manhattan, a convention clubhouse, in a way, where he showed us his college thesis about the omniverse and laid out the ideas for what would be the magazine. He was a brilliant, quirky, sometimes hard-to-figure but always, always, big-hearted and generous guy, and seeing his legacy continue decades later is heartening and very cool.

Let me also raise a glass to Dean Mullaney, more unsung but without whose own creativity and publishing expertise the magazine might have remained only an idea. Dean also published one of the earliest graphic novels -- indeed the first to be sold in the then-new outlet of comic-book stores -- with Don McGregor and Paul Gulacy's Sabre, released a month or two before Will Eisner's A Contract with God.

It's good to see Mark and Dean's work remembered appreciatively. They deserve it.

[Red Oak Kid]

My God, does this bring back memories: My first magazine cover story was for Omniverse 2. I'm afraid I have to admit that I still get a kick out of the inverted Thomas Paine of "These are men who try Time's soul"...!

Thank you for the kind words about the Dr. Doom piece, and for posting images I haven't seen in years. I'd like to raise a virtual glass to toast the late Mark Gruenwald and the great Dean Mullaney, the publisher and, if I remember right, co-editors ... and also old friends. A few of us remember Mark and his then-girlfriend's W. 88th Street apartment in Manhattan, a convention clubhouse, in a way, where he showed us his college thesis about the omniverse and laid out the ideas for what would be the magazine. He was a brilliant, quirky, sometimes hard-to-figure but always, always, big-hearted and generous guy, and seeing his legacy continue decades later is heartening and very cool.

Let me also raise a glass to Dean Mullaney, more unsung but without whose own creativity and publishing expertise the magazine might have remained only an idea. Dean also published one of the earliest graphic novels -- indeed the first to be sold in the then-new outlet of comic-book stores -- with Don McGregor and Paul Gulacy's Sabre, released a month or two before Will Eisner's A Contract with God.

It's good to see Mark and Dean's work remembered appreciatively. They deserve it.

Hey Frank, when's the next issue of Nimbus coming out?

[rick]

My God, does this bring back memories: My first magazine cover story was for Omniverse 2. I'm afraid I have to admit that I still get a kick out of the inverted Thomas Paine of "These are men who try Time's soul"...!

Thank you for the kind words about the Dr. Doom piece, and for posting images I haven't seen in years. I'd like to raise a virtual glass to toast the late Mark Gruenwald and the great Dean Mullaney, the publisher and, if I remember right, co-editors ... and also old friends. A few of us remember Mark and his then-girlfriend's W. 88th Street apartment in Manhattan, a convention clubhouse, in a way, where he showed us his college thesis about the omniverse and laid out the ideas for what would be the magazine. He was a brilliant, quirky, sometimes hard-to-figure but always, always, big-hearted and generous guy, and seeing his legacy continue decades later is heartening and very cool.

Let me also raise a glass to Dean Mullaney, more unsung but without whose own creativity and publishing expertise the magazine might have remained only an idea. Dean also published one of the earliest graphic novels -- indeed the first to be sold in the then-new outlet of comic-book stores -- with Don McGregor and Paul Gulacy's Sabre, released a month or two before Will Eisner's A Contract with God.

It's good to see Mark and Dean's work remembered appreciatively. They deserve it.


You're in the right place to find love for both Mark and Dean.

Both men were such major factors in the great comics of the 80's that it's really hard not to have some real affection for them.

Also, it's really nice to see more old time members of fandom such as yourself show up here too.

I still really need to get my hands on these books.

[dan bailey]

Hey Frank, when's the next issue of Nimbus coming out?

How many ishes were there? I had what I believe was #1, though of course I haven't seen it in more than 3 decades. I seem to recall a really nice Ghost Rider (the Western original, not that motorcycle Johnny-Blaze-come-lately) cover ...