Thoughts on the Relative Freeness of Radio

[LordKaos]

It gets worse. (http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=9218)

[Astonishing X-Fan]

It gets worse. (http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=9218)

Oh for God's sake.

Going after people who download CDs is one thing...

Going after people who make copies of the CDs they already bought or transfer them to their Ipods? What the ****?

And going after people who play the freaking RADIO at work????

:confused: :rolleyes: :mad:

[Brian Cronin]

Oh for God's sake.

Going after people who download CDs is one thing...

Going after people who make copies of the CDs they already bought or transfer them to their Ipods? What the ****?

And going after people who play the freaking RADIO at work????

:confused: :rolleyes: :mad:

Performing music at stores has always been an area that has been followed by the music companies. It is why we have Muzak.

It just so happens that pretty much every store big enough to be worth suing has come up with Muzak to AVOID being sued.

So it's just the small stores that still actually play the radio/their own personal music.

-Brian

[Astonishing X-Fan]

Performing music at stores has always been an area that has been followed by the music companies. It is why we have Muzak.

It just so happens that pretty much every store big enough to be worth suing has come up with Muzak to AVOID being sued.

So it's just the small stores that still actually play the radio/their own personal music.

-Brian

But it's the radio.

I am never charged money to listen to the radio. It is not a service I or any other average Joe is expected to pay for.

Therefore how can a store be sued for playing the radio? The songs on the radio are MEANT to be heard for free. The whole point is so people will get a small taste of the artist's music so they'll either buy the whole CD or go see them live.

[Brian Cronin]

But it's the radio.

I am never charged money to listen to the radio. It is not a service I or any other average Joe is expected to pay for.

Therefore how can a store be sued for playing the radio? The songs on the radio are MEANT to be heard for free. The whole point is so people will get a small taste of the artist's music so they'll either buy the whole CD or go see them live.

The way the radio works (and I'm just telling you what the law is, not telling you whether it's morally right or whatever) legally is that it is for entertainment purposes only.

Therefore, when stores use the music, it is no longer for entertainment purposes only, it is for commercial purposes, because the store is presumably using the music to make the buying experience a more pleasant one for their customers. Since the store is gaining a tangible benefit, the law is that they have to pay for it. And since it is usually way too difficult quantifying how much they would have to pay for radio, "Muzak" was invented, which is generic versions of famous songs that stores can purchase to play in their stores.

The bigger stores, though, who have a ton of money, work out deals where they basically buy their own radio station to play in their stores/malls/etc.

-Brian

[howyadoin]

The bigger stores, though, who have a ton of money, work out deals where they basically buy their own radio station to play in their stores/malls/etc.They should hire their own musicians and have them play live in the stores.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

The way the radio works (and I'm just telling you what the law is, not telling you whether it's morally right or whatever) legally is that it is for entertainment purposes only.

Therefore, when stores use the music, it is no longer for entertainment purposes only, it is for commercial purposes, because the store is presumably using the music to make the buying experience a more pleasant one for their customers. Since the store is gaining a tangible benefit, the law is that they have to pay for it. And since it is usually way too difficult quantifying how much they would have to pay for radio, "Muzak" was invented, which is generic versions of famous songs that stores can purchase to play in their stores.

The bigger stores, though, who have a ton of money, work out deals where they basically buy their own radio station to play in their stores/malls/etc.

-Brian


I worked in a restraunt and we were forced to be a soft-pop place. They had a deal where we were forced for hours to listen to Backstreet Boys and other music. I wanted to kill whoever signed that.

[Brian Cronin]

And actually, my information is a bit out of date, as since Satellite radio has become a bigger deal, companies no longer have to worry about the cost as much, as both XM and Sirius have specific "Radio stations for businesses" that places can purchase.

-Brian

[Brian Cronin]

I worked in a restraunt and we were forced to be a soft-pop place. They had a deal where we were forced for hours to listen to Backstreet Boys and other music. I wanted to kill whoever signed that.

Yeah, there ya go. That's an example of what I'm talking about. The restaurant had to sign a deal with a specific radio station where they would pay for the right to play the music.

So if a store just plays the radio without paying extra for it, they are THEORETICALLY open to lawsuits.

Usually, though, small stores are safe only under the "they're not worth pursuing" tact.

-Brian

[MKTerra]

You think it SHOULD be free? Guess what? It doesn't matter what you think. The fact is...it is NOT free.Well actually, de facto it is free, unless/until you get caught like the lady in the topic.

I apologize for only replying flippantly, btw. Reflex.

[Nick Soapdish]

No. It's not free. Because it has a price. Because the CD is released for SALE.

YOU may have GOT IT for free, because you downloaded it...but the product itself is NOT free.

You're confusing price and cost. They aren't the same thing.

[MKTerra]

No. It's not free. Because it has a price. Because the CD is released for SALE.

YOU may have GOT IT for free, because you downloaded it...but the product itself is NOT free.I get what you're saying, although it makes for another semantic argument in this area (on top of the ones over "stealing," "property," etc).

[Paul McEnery]

Oh for God's sake.

Going after people who download CDs is one thing...

Going after people who make copies of the CDs they already bought or transfer them to their Ipods? What the ****?

And going after people who play the freaking RADIO at work????

:confused: :rolleyes: :mad:

Congratulations. You just figured out the first flaw in your argument.

[Astonishing X-Fan]

Congratulations. You just figured out the first flaw in your argument.

Um, no.

Radio has nothing to do with my argument.

Radio is meant to be free. CDs are not.

[howyadoin]

Radio is meant to be free.Says who? Radio has been subsidized by advertising and record-company payola practically from the start.

The only thing that's changed is the record industry doesn't get the level of promotion from radio that they used to - probably because of the fragmentation of the radio audience, and the number of people turning away from it - so now they don't see radio as the crucial promotional tool it used to be.

That being said, they're certainly still biting the hand that feeds, though.

[Astonishing X-Fan]

Says who? Radio has been subsidized by advertising and record-company payola practically from the start.

The only thing that's changed is the record industry doesn't get the level of promotion from radio that they used to - probably because of the fragmentation of the radio audience, and the number of people turning away from it - so now they don't see radio as the crucial promotional tool it used to be.

That being said, they're certainly still biting the hand that feeds, though.

Radio is meant to be free. We do not pay to listen to the radio. We are not charged to listen to the radio.

Which means listening to the radio for free is not morally wrong.

We ARE charged for the new 50 Cent album. The new 50 Cent album is not meant to be free. It is released with the sole intention of being sold.

Which means downloading the new 50 Cent album for free is morally wrong.

[howyadoin]

Radio is meant to be free.Where are you getting this? Meant by who, exactly?

We do not pay to listen to the radio. We are not charged to listen to the radio.Are you familiar with something called advertising? Of course you're paying to listen to the radio.

[Astonishing X-Fan]

Where are you getting this? Meant by who, exactly?

Are you familiar with something called advertising? Of course you're paying to listen to the radio.

Um, no, I'm not.

I NEVER, EVER have to pay a single CENT to listen to the radio.

Which is WHY there is advertising on the radio. Because the listeners DO NOT PAY to listen to it. Advertising is how the radio station makes it's money.

To us, to the consumer, the radio is meant to be free and it IS free. The drawback is we have to listen to the advertising too.

But we don't have to PAY for it.

[howyadoin]

Originally posted by Astonishing X-Fan
Um, no, I'm not.

I NEVER, EVER have to pay a single CENT to listen to the radio.

Which is WHY there is advertising on the radio. Because the listeners DO NOT PAY to listen to it. Advertising is how the radio station makes it's money.

To us, to the consumer, the radio is meant to be free and it IS free. The drawback is we have to listen to the advertising too.

But we don't have to PAY for it. I think you've got a fundamental misunderstanding of how advertising works, then. Have you never bought a product that you heard advertised on the radio? Never gone to a concert you heard advertised on the radio? Never bought an album because of a song you heard on the radio?

If you've done any of those things, then yes, you've paid to listen to the radio.

[Shellhead]

They should hire their own musicians and have them play live in the stores.

I periodically go to this hardware store that does just that. This place (Menard's is monstrously huge for a hardware store, and very busy. Every time that I've been there on a weekend afternoon, they have a piano player playing a grand piano set up near the escalators in the center of the store. He's wears a tuxedo and isn't playing for tips, so they must have him on the payroll. He's good.

[Astonishing X-Fan]

I think you've got a fundamental misunderstanding of how advertising works, then. Have you never bought a product that you heard advertised on the radio? Never gone to a concert you heard advertised on the radio? Never bought an album because of a song you heard on the radio?

If you've done any of those things, then yes, you've paid to listen to the radio.

*Hits head on desk*

No, I have not.

I do not HAVE to buy anything I hear advertised. I do not HAVE to buy any album. I do not HAVE to go to any concert.

I can turn on the radio, and NEVER PAY ANYTHING.

There is no REQUIRED payment to listen to the radio. My local FM rock station doesn't bill me whenever I turn them on.

Radio is free. FACT

[Tadhg Adams]

*Hits head on desk*

No, I have not.

I do not HAVE to buy anything I hear advertised. I do not HAVE to buy any album. I do not HAVE to go to any concert.

I can turn on the radio, and NEVER PAY ANYTHING.

There is no REQUIRED payment to listen to the radio. My local FM rock station doesn't bill me whenever I turn them on.

Radio is free. FACT

Only if you ignore everything Cronin posted.

[Winslow]

*Hits head on desk*

No, I have not.

I do not HAVE to buy anything I hear advertised. I do not HAVE to buy any album. I do not HAVE to go to any concert.

I can turn on the radio, and NEVER PAY ANYTHING.

There is no REQUIRED payment to listen to the radio. My local FM rock station doesn't bill me whenever I turn them on.

Radio is free. FACT

How do radio stations stay in business? No income?

You are using "free" in an individualistic sense, others are using "it's not free" from an economic perspective.

Radio generates income from ads, and you listening are helping them generate that income by giving audience numbers to prospective buyers of advertisement. The idea is that you'll buy something that is advertised.

I am spending close to $10,000 in tuition on a teacher certification program that I heard advertised on the radio.

Did it cost me $10,000 to listen to the radio? No, but income is being generated BECAUSE I listened to the radio.

And we're not morons here. Everyone knows you don't pay a fee to listen to broadcast radio - we're simply trying to make a point about how radio is a business that generates income BY YOU listening (so it's not "free" ~ you buy stuff - you didn't pay the radio directly, but indirectly).

[Ed Cunard]

And we're not morons here.

Let's be honest: some of us are.

[Winslow]

Let's be honest: some of us are.

I like to think it isn't obvious with me.

[Matt Algren]

I like to think it isn't obvious with me.
When you use that avatar, it really is.

[Astonishing X-Fan]

How do radio stations stay in business? No income?

You are using "free" in an individualistic sense, others are using "it's not free" from an economic perspective.

Radio generates income from ads, and you listening are helping them generate that income by giving audience numbers to prospective buyers of advertisement. The idea is that you'll buy something that is advertised.

I am spending close to $10,000 in tuition on a teacher certification program that I heard advertised on the radio.

Did it cost me $10,000 to listen to the radio? No, but income is being generated BECAUSE I listened to the radio.

And we're not morons here. Everyone knows you don't pay a fee to listen to broadcast radio - we're simply trying to make a point about how radio is a business that generates income BY YOU listening (so it's not "free" ~ you buy stuff - you didn't pay the radio directly, but indirectly).

Well no shit.

I never actually disagreed with that. I was talking about the actual monetary cost to just listen to the radio. I made that PERFECTLY CLEAR.

The entire point is this: Listening to the radio is different than buying a CD. One we are charged for, one we are not.

[Winslow]

I never actually disagreed with that. I was talking about the actual monetary cost to just listen to the radio. I made that PERFECTLY CLEAR.

Your original point was about playing the radio at work.

Businesses pay a fee for that.

I keep trying to act as some sort of discussion facilitator here, That was a mistake. I truly am a moron.

[Ed Cunard]

I keep trying to act as some sort of discussion facilitator here, That was a mistake. I truly am a moron.

Well, duh.

STUPID STUPID WINSLOW WANTING PEOPLE TO GET ALONG AND SHIT.

[howyadoin]

Well seeing as how I could go to a record store and buy a new disc for $14.99 fifteen years ago and I can go to a record store NOW and buy a new disc for $14.99 I don't see how the lawsuit matters in practicality.I was just thinkin' about that the other day as I came out of HMV with a fistful of new CDs. 15 years ago I made $7 an hour. Now I'm pulling in 6 times that and if anything, CD prices have come down. In my neck of the woods, anyway.

I periodically go to this hardware store that does just that. This place (Menard's is monstrously huge for a hardware store, and very busy. Every time that I've been there on a weekend afternoon, they have a piano player playing a grand piano set up near the escalators in the center of the store. He's wears a tuxedo and isn't playing for tips, so they must have him on the payroll. He's good.That's awesome.

*Hits head on desk*

No, I have not.

I do not HAVE to buy anything I hear advertised. I do not HAVE to buy any album. I do not HAVE to go to any concert.

I can turn on the radio, and NEVER PAY ANYTHING.

There is no REQUIRED payment to listen to the radio.It's not required because it's understood from the start how the system works.

By everybody but you, I guess. But what do I know? I've only been working in advertising for 12 years.

[jessecuster3]

Let's be honest: some of us are.

I like to think it isn't obvious with me.

Hey, I resemble that remark!