Hulk admits his own guilt Pre WWH

[Soulfire2]

Forgive me if this has been covered in some other thread already. I picked up a collection of the comics leading up to Civil War the other day. It's one of Marvel's new collection of books that has all the Civil War storyline condensed down to several books.

I noticed that when the Illuminati was decided to shoot Hulk into outerspace they were talking about all the ways they tried to help him before. It was mentioned that Professor X went into Banner's mind once to try to help him. All they discovered was that if he "Banner" could kill himself he would have done it a long time ago. This is because he obviously hurts in kills people when he is out of control.

Now just how people has the Hulk killed. Well, not many mainstream Marvel characters but the unnamed list must be pretty long. I say this only because in the same issue there was a lady in SHIELD who told Iron Man he hurt injured and killed many people over the years and that it was their fault if they didn't stop him. In his Vegas rampage he killed/injured something like 20/30 people and a dog.

So if the Hulk has killed anywhere near this number of people and Banner admits he would kill himself if possible, doesn't this mean that the Hulk has no right to be angry for being shot into outerspace? Besides the fact that he is the Hulk and is just looking for a reason to fight anyway. For these reasons I have to side against the Hulk. Thoughts and comments.

[Ramiel]

Forgive me if this has been covered in some other thread already. I picked up a collection of the comics leading up to Civil War the other day. It's one of Marvel's new collection of books that has all the Civil War storyline condensed down to several books.

I noticed that when the Illuminati was decided to shoot Hulk into outerspace they were talking about all the ways they tried to help him before. It was mentioned that Professor X went into Banner's mind once to try to help him. All they discovered was that if he "Banner" could kill himself he would have done it a long time ago. This is because he obviously hurts in kills people when he is out of control.

Now just how people has the Hulk killed. Well, not many mainstream Marvel characters but the unnamed list must be pretty long. I say this only because in the same issue there was a lady in SHIELD who told Iron Man he hurt injured and killed many people over the years and that it was their fault if they didn't stop him. In his Vegas rampage he killed/injured something like 20/30 people and a dog.

So if the Hulk has killed anywhere near this number of people and Banner admits he would kill himself if possible, doesn't this mean that the Hulk has no right to be angry for being shot into outerspace? Besides the fact that he is the Hulk and is just looking for a reason to fight anyway. For these reasons I have to side against the Hulk. Thoughts and comments.

I really don't think that is why Hulk is so angry at the Illuminati, I think it has something a little more to do with the death of his queen and decimation of the kingdom he acquired because of the malfunction in his pod. He assumed and, I believe, still assumes they did it on purpose.

[Kefky]

Doctor Strange was the one who said it. That happened in hulk 300.

[Soulfire2]

I really don't think that is why Hulk is so angry at the Illuminati, I think it has something a little more to do with the death of his queen and decimation of the kingdom he acquired because of the malfunction in his pod. He assumed and, I believe, still assumes they did it on purpose.

Agreed. But a lot of posters are taking the Hulk's side saying they should have never shot the Hulk into space. I think they did the right thing considering he was going around killing people. I once posted this in another thread:


If forced to take sides I would have to side with the Illuminati. Let's face it, the Hulk was always going crazy and haywire and causing tons of property damage and even got a few people killed in the past. If this was reality (which I want to make totally clear that I know it is not) the government would have done whatever they had to do to get rid of the Hulk. That includes killing him. The biggest thing is that they couldn't even reason with the Hulk. He always goes into this stupid "Hulk Smash" mode and thats thats.

So what did the Illuminati do? They decide to get together and banash the Hulk to another planet. Not a bad decision considering he probably would have been sentenced to death in reality. I want to point out that I find it crazy that none of the marvel super smart heros could cure Banner but that's beside the point.

Now lets go to planet Hulk where he is actually happy with where he has ended up. The ship explodes and kills everyone he cares about. We don't exactly know why the bomb went off. I think it was probably one of the Warbound in order to cause strife but thats just my opinion.

Now the Hulk comes back to Earth and kicks everyone's butt and tries to take over. Again, no one can reason with him. The Hulk doesn't even ask if they meant to send him to the planet that he ended up on. The Hulk doesn't even ask if they meant for the bomb to explode and kill the creatures on Planet Hulk.

Someone should ask the Hulk this question. "While you were king of Planet Hulk, if someone started rampaging through your kingdom and causing damage what would you have done with them if you took the time to reason with them for years and years?"

Kind of ironic don't you think. But I can promise you the Hulk wouldn't have taken the time to send a monster to outer space to a "intended" peaceful planet. He would have smashed the monster right into the ground.

When you look at it that way, I think what the Illuminati did was pretty sincere.

[Kevinroc]

Isn't it sorta Dr. Strange's fault that Hulk went mindless in Hulk #300?

Hhmm...

[Ramiel]

Agreed. But a lot of posters are taking the Hulk's side saying they should have never shot the Hulk into space. I think they did the right thing considering he was going around killing people. I once posted this in another thread:

Well, that is a little subplot all it's own, but you were talking about why he was angry and how, if he realizes his own danger, why should he be waging this 'war' against Illuminati.

The whole shooting up into space thing really isn't the reason why he came back to smash. It was much more about his queens death and kingdom getting blown to...kingdom come

[Soulfire2]

Isn't it sorta Dr. Strange's fault that Hulk went mindless in Hulk #300?

Hhmm...

When they were talking to Iron Man at SHIELD they implied that it happened countless times before where he has killed/hurt innocents. Like I said before, if some creature was tearing up Planet Hulk, the Hulk would have done away with that creature long long ago.

[Kevinroc]

When they were talking to Iron Man at SHIELD they implied that it happened countless times before where he has killed/hurt innocents. Like I said before, if some creature was tearing up Planet Hulk, the Hulk would have done away with that creature long long ago.

There is no record of Hulk going around and killing people. This was basically what the message of Incredible Hulk #110 was. As long as no outside force is messing with the Hulk's mind, he's not gonna run out and kill a bunch of people.

The Hulk is not a mass murderer. The Illuminati did something (else) wrong.

[Magneto Rocks]

There is NO definitive answer as to whether or not Hulk has killed people. Anyone who says "Hulk basolutely definitiely, positively beyond all doubt has NOT" is flat out wrong. Likewise anyone who says he absolutely, definitely, beyond all doubt HAS.

It's totally up in the air.

[Kevinroc]

There is NO definitive answer as to whether or not Hulk has killed people. Anyone who says "Hulk basolutely definitiely, positively beyond all doubt has NOT" is flat out wrong. Likewise anyone who says he absolutely, definitely, beyond all doubt HAS.

It's totally up in the air.

Just keep telling yourself this. ;)

(Me? I take Dan Slott, Peter David and Greg Pak at their word on the subject.)

[Magneto Rocks]

Just keep telling yourself this. ;)

(Me? I take Dan Slott, Peter David and Greg Pak at their word on the subject.)

And I'll take Mark Millar, Kurt Busiek and Brian Bendis at THEIR words on the subject.

Tell you what though, show me a modern comic which presents definitive proof of your PoV and I'll accept it. After all, the three guys you name must feel pretty strongly about it, so clearly if Marvel want their PoV to become fact, it'll be expressed, right?

Oh wait, that's right, they can't.

The best they can do is offer it as a theory and throw in some stuff to back it up.

So either they're just not trying very hard, they don't care at all... or Marvel don't WANT it clarified. Hmm, why would that be? is it possible that controversy and ambiguity SELLS? Naa, of course not. Who actually bought that civil war thing anyway?

[ivesaidway2much]

When they were talking to Iron Man at SHIELD they implied that it happened countless times before where he has killed/hurt innocents. Like I said before, if some creature was tearing up Planet Hulk, the Hulk would have done away with that creature long long ago.Have you read Planet Hulk? Because there are at least three different instances in the story that show the exact opposite of this. The first was the Hulk sparing the monster the Red King's troops were using, I believe, to eat the people who didn't make the cut at the Battle arena training grounds. Second, he showed mercy and even gave his own lifeblood to the Spikes, who had killed I don't even know how many people. And third he attempted to form a truce with the Wildebots who had been causing all types of destruction on Sakaar. Unfortunately the world blew up before he could make any progress on that front. The Hulk chose to understand and help people as opposed to just throwing them away when they became a problem

[Soulfire2]

There is no record of Hulk going around and killing people. This was basically what the message of Incredible Hulk #110 was. As long as no outside force is messing with the Hulk's mind, he's not gonna run out and kill a bunch of people.

The Hulk is not a mass murderer. The Illuminati did something (else) wrong.

I'm not so sure of this anymore. Can anyone post a panel from the Hulk issue when they were trying to convince Iron Man to banish the Hulk. SHIELD stated in so many words that he killed and will kill again if not stopped. They said it would be Iron Man's fault because he would let him live. They compared it to when Spider Man keeps letting the Goblin live instead of ending it.

I'm not saying 100% that he has killed before but the text from the panel sure makes it sound like he has. My one thought is that sure it's not documented anywhere that the Hulk has killed any innocents (without someone tampering with his mind) but perhaps the writers decided to write it in on this panel and say that he did just to build up a valid reason for having him banished.

[Kevinroc]

And I'll take Mark Millar, Kurt Busiek and Brian Bendis at THEIR words on the subject.

I'm sorry... How many Hulk comics did these men write? Even if you wanna take out Slott's name, just PAD and Pak alone are enough to counter just about any other name you can throw. Tragically, the only other name you could mention to counter PAD and Pak is Stan Lee's.

Tell you what though, show me a modern comic which presents definitive proof of your PoV and I'll accept it. After all, the three guys you name must feel pretty strongly about it, so clearly if Marvel want their PoV to become fact, it'll be expressed, right?

Oh wait, that's right, they can't.

The best they can do is offer it as a theory and throw in some stuff to back it up.

So either they're just not trying very hard, they don't care at all... or Marvel don't WANT it clarified. Hmm, why would that be? is it possible that controversy and ambiguity SELLS? Naa, of course not. Who actually bought that civil war thing anyway?

I love how you went from being "Hulk most definitely kills people" to "well, it's sorta ambiguous now..." ;)

[ddqfpluskick]

Ah the classic Power Ranger arguement

I mean could have there been people in the building that the Power Ranger knocked down in the giant robot. Most likely, but it was never stated.

Most comics aviod mentioning civilian casualties. No doubt every marvel character has cause friendly fire. However, Marvel will never admit somebody died as a result of hero action more is blame on the villian. At least no in comic books. Novels sure, but not comic books. I mean Spider Man: Sinister Six showed the by dodging gun fire Peter left civilian get hit by being behind him.

Really I think the Hulk is more mad at the destruction of the Planet and the death toll. I mean if it had never happened then Hulk would have rationalized his exile and might have seen it as a good thing.
Basically it's like ST: Wrath of Khan.

[Kevinroc]

I'm not so sure of this anymore. Can anyone post a panel from the Hulk issue when they were trying to convince Iron Man to banish the Hulk. SHIELD stated in so many words that he killed and will kill again if not stopped. They said it would be Iron Man's fault because he would let him live. They compared it to when Spider Man keeps letting the Goblin live instead of ending it.

I'm not saying 100% that he has killed before but the text from the panel sure makes it sound like he has. My one thought is that sure it's not documented anywhere that the Hulk has killed any innocents (without someone tampering with his mind) but perhaps the writers decided to write it in on this panel and say that he did just to build up a valid reason for having him banished.

Hulk #110 was published AFTER the Illuminati one-shot. And yes, Pak read the one-shot. He makes references to it (such as what Namor said).

[Soulfire2]

Have you read Planet Hulk? Because there are at least three different instances in the story that show the exact opposite of this. The first was the Hulk sparing the monster the Red King's troops were using, I believe, to eat the people who didn't make the cut at the Battle arena training grounds. Second, he showed mercy and even gave his own lifeblood to the Spikes, who had killed I don't even know how many people. And third he attempted to form a truce with the Wildebots who had been causing all types of destruction on Sakaar. The Hulk chose to understand and help people as opposed to just throwing them away when they became a problem

Of course. It goes without saying that the Hulk can be a hero and save people. That's happened more times than anyone can count. But I'm talking about the times when he's not a hero and he's out of control. The Illuminati talked about his sometimes Hero sometimes Monster side as well.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I'm not so sure of this anymore. Can anyone post a panel from the Hulk issue when they were trying to convince Iron Man to banish the Hulk. SHIELD stated in so many words that he killed and will kill again if not stopped. They said it would be Iron Man's fault because he would let him live. They compared it to when Spider Man keeps letting the Goblin live instead of ending it.

Funny how Hill used Vegas as an example. What she didn't say was that Hulk's rampage was caused by him helping Shield. She was basically asking Stark to cover her own @$$.

I don't know why people focus so much on the 'has he killed or hasn't he?' question. I like Hulk, but the property damage and potential menace he poses is reason enough to exile him, if push came to shove. People just want the question to be open and shut, which is a real shame. Gray's far more interesting, IMO.

[ivesaidway2much]

Tell you what though, show me a modern comic which presents definitive proof of your PoV and I'll accept it. After all, the three guys you name must feel pretty strongly about it, so clearly if Marvel want their PoV to become fact, it'll be expressed, right?

Oh wait, that's right, they can't.

The best they can do is offer it as a theory and throw in some stuff to back it up.What do you mean by definitive proof? Would Tyrannus (first met the Hulk in Inc. Hulk v1 #5[1963]), Bruce Banner, Nick Fury, and the Thing all stating that the Hulk doesn't go around killing people count? Because all of them said as much in Hulk #1-11 when the Hulk was framed for downing a passenger plane. That was in the late '90's. Would She-Hulk stating the same thing just a couple of years ago count? Because you seem to have dismissed the only guy whose done a point by point rundown of all the Hulk's greatest hits.

[Magneto Rocks]

I'm sorry... How many Hulk comics did these men write? Even if you wanna take out Slott's name, just PAD and Pak alone are enough to counter just about any other name you can throw. Tragically, the only other name you could mention to counter PAD and Pak is Stan Lee's.

Unfortunately for you, it would not matter if Jesus himself descended and told us Hulk didn't kill anyone, because until it's reflected in the comics, that doesn't really matter. PARTICULARLY when other writers disagree. Just because onew rites the Hulk comic, it does not mean one's opinion holds any more weight. They can, perhaps, enforce their opinion more, but if Kurt Busiek wrote Hulk tomorrow and made him kill a man, the fact that PAD said he doesn't really think it happens means little.

I love how you went from being "Hulk most definitely kills people" to "well, it's sorta ambiguous now..." ;)

Oh no, I absolutely think he does. But when it comes to OTHERS, well everyone has to make up their own mind. I'm convinced he does, and there are comics to back me up. You're convinced he doesn't, there are some to back YOU up. I think my proof is better, you disagree. Okay.

What do you mean by definitive proof? Would Tyrannus (first met the Hulk in Inc. Hulk v1 #5[1963]), Bruce Banner, Nick Fury, and the Thing all stating that the Hulk doesn't go around killing people count? Because all of them said as much in Hulk #1-11 when the Hulk was framed for downing a passenger plane. That was in the late '90's. Would She-Hulk stating the same thing just a couple of years ago count? Because you seem to have dismissed the only guy whose done a point by point rundown of all the Hulk's greatest hits.

Try modern era definitive proof for a start. Oh wait, you can't, as there is none.

[Superbeast]

I think the newest retcon states Hulk with Banner tucked away in his mind has never consciously killed, however Mindless Hulk when Banner has been separated or repressed due to outside influence has been responsible for deaths relating to his rampages.

[Kevinroc]

Unfortunately for you, it would not matter if Jesus himself descended and told us Hulk didn't kill anyone, because until it's reflected in the comics, that doesn't really matter. PARTICULARLY when other writers disagree. Just because onew rites the Hulk comic, it does not mean one's opinion holds any more weight. They can, perhaps, enforce their opinion more, but if Kurt Busiek wrote Hulk tomorrow and made him kill a man, the fact that PAD said he doesn't really think it happens means little.

It's a good thing the CURRENT Hulk writer agrees with PAD, isn't it?

Oh no, I absolutely think he does. But when it comes to OTHERS, well everyone has to make up their own mind. I'm convinced he does, and there are comics to back me up. You're convinced he doesn't, there are some to back YOU up. I think my proof is better, you disagree. Okay.

You think Iron Man is morally superior to Spider-Man right now. I think that says it all. ;)

Try modern era definitive proof for a start. Oh wait, you can't, as there is none.

The She-Hulk reference is from Dan Slott's run (after the relaunch). This was after House of M and just before Civil War. If that isn't "modern era" from this point in time, I don't know what is.

(And in comics "modern era" is a relative term. How far back is "modern"?)

[oanswat]

Unfortunately for you, it would not matter if Jesus himself descended and told us Hulk didn't kill anyone, because until it's reflected in the comics, that doesn't really matter. PARTICULARLY when other writers disagree. Just because onew rites the Hulk comic, it does not mean one's opinion holds any more weight. They can, perhaps, enforce their opinion more, but if Kurt Busiek wrote Hulk tomorrow and made him kill a man, the fact that PAD said he doesn't really think it happens means little.



Oh no, I absolutely think he does. But when it comes to OTHERS, well everyone has to make up their own mind. I'm convinced he does, and there are comics to back me up. You're convinced he doesn't, there are some to back YOU up. I think my proof is better, you disagree. Okay.



Try modern era definitive proof for a start. Oh wait, you can't, as there is none.

Actually, since you're the one claiming that he HAS killed people, while not being brainwashed or ?brain-removed? I think you ought to show some kind of proof. See, most of us read incredible hulk 110 just a few weeks ago and we allready know that he doesn't kill, so I think you ought to lay your cards down so we can all see these kills that you believe happened.

[Lord Moon]

Unfortunately for you, it would not matter if Jesus himself descended and told us Hulk didn't kill anyone

I'm not religious but if that actually happened, I would take his word for it.

[oanswat]

I'm not religious but if that actually happened, I would take his word for it.

Hah! Seriously! I'm an athiest but if Jesus came up to me and said "jump" you know I'm gonna ask "how high, sir?"

I think it's funny that religious people say they are religious but if I actually believed in god I would live my life like a friggin preacher. Totally dedicated. How can you actually believe in god but not spend your entire life doing nothing but worship in the hopes you'll get a good seat in heaven?

[Superbeast]

Hah! Seriously! I'm an athiest but if Jesus came up to me and said "jump" you know I'm gonna ask "how high, sir?"

I think it's funny that religious people say they are religious but if I actually believed in god I would live my life like a friggin preacher. Totally dedicated. How can you actually believe in god but not spend your entire life doing nothing but worship in the hopes you'll get a good seat in heaven?

By living well and hoping God's more open minded than the Bible shows him to be.

Besides, Jesus doesn't exist in Marvel, only The One Above All who was shown to be Jack Kirby who has a "partner" he consults with. I guess Stan Lee would be the Holy Spirit and Steve Ditko their only begotten son. :P

[thronzeblast]

And I'll take Mark Millar, Kurt Busiek and Brian Bendis at THEIR words on the subject.

Tell you what though, show me a modern comic which presents definitive proof of your PoV and I'll accept it. After all, the three guys you name must feel pretty strongly about it, so clearly if Marvel want their PoV to become fact, it'll be expressed, right?

Oh wait, that's right, they can't.

The best they can do is offer it as a theory and throw in some stuff to back it up.

So either they're just not trying very hard, they don't care at all... or Marvel don't WANT it clarified. Hmm, why would that be? is it possible that controversy and ambiguity SELLS? Naa, of course not. Who actually bought that civil war thing anyway?



This come's down to the hulk being the one that has to take the blame for year's of writer's protraying hero's and villain's fighting these huge battle's knocking down buildings and basically implying that nobody dies.This is basically oh there's not way the hulk could have gone on these rampages and nobody died.If that is applyed to the hulk it has to be applyed to alot of people.

[ivesaidway2much]

Try modern era definitive proof for a start. Oh wait, you can't, as there is none.But what do you mean by proof? Because there isn't any evidence in any comic that I know of that the Hulk has ever killed an innocent person of his own free will. Even in the Illuminati one-shot the only specific event they pointed to was an incident where the Hulk clearly wasn't in his right mind.

How do you prove/disprove something about a character that's never existed anywhere? For instance, can you prove that Sue Richards doesn't physically abuse her children? The concept of a non-brain damaged Hulk killing people has been refuted by multiple characters through the pens of multiple writers in multiple published comics, but never explicitly asserted in the positive. The only evidence I have of the Hulk's innocence is the complete lack of any innocent people dying at the hands of a Hulk in his right mind.

[bulbasteve]

And I'll take Mark Millar, Kurt Busiek and Brian Bendis at THEIR words on the subject.

Hmm I haven't been following these Hulk debates. What did Busiek say about the killing issue? (and I guess you are saying Millar because of how he used him in Ultimates, right?)

[ivesaidway2much]

Hmm I haven't been following these Hulk debates. What did Busiek say about the killing issue? (and I guess you are saying Millar because of how he used him in Ultimates, right?)I'm just paraphrasing. But Busiek pretty much said that he was surprised that there was even a debate. He always just assumed that the Hulk did kill people. Although, I missed Mark Millar's comments on the Hulk as well. I would guess it has something to do with his soon to be infamous Hulk babies.

[jigrig]

There is NO definitive answer as to whether or not Hulk has killed people. Anyone who says "Hulk basolutely definitiely, positively beyond all doubt has NOT" is flat out wrong. Likewise anyone who says he absolutely, definitely, beyond all doubt HAS.

It's totally up in the air.

I can state this " Hulk has basolutely edfinately, opsitively ebyond lal odubt ahs ONT" si ont lfat uot rwong.

[bulbasteve]

I'm just paraphrasing. But Busiek pretty much said that he was surprised that there was even a debate. He always just assumed that the Hulk did kill people. Although, I missed Mark Millar's comments on the Hulk as well. I would guess it has something to do with his soon to be infamous Hulk babies.

I read his whole CW hulk babies thing and i didn't notice anything like that. I would still be interested to know exactly what Busiek said.

[Quinch]

And I'll take Mark Millar, Kurt Busiek and Brian Bendis at THEIR words on the subject.


Major Hulk writers to a man there...
IH 110 must have really hurt you.
Medal for sheer bloodymindedness MR! Wear it with pride.

[Lord Moon]

Hah! Seriously! I'm an athiest but if Jesus came up to me and said "jump" you know I'm gonna ask "how high, sir?"

I think it's funny that religious people say they are religious but if I actually believed in god I would live my life like a friggin preacher. Totally dedicated. How can you actually believe in god but not spend your entire life doing nothing but worship in the hopes you'll get a good seat in heaven?

If a man we know to be dead, whose chief claim to fame is that he is the son of God, came down on a shaft of sunlight from the heavens, specifically to give a view on the Hulk, I would give a great deal of weight to that view. I might even rethink a few other things while I'm at it.

Let me know if it happens.

[Badfish40oz]

The She-Hulk reference is from Dan Slott's run (after the relaunch). This was after House of M and just before Civil War. If that isn't "modern era" from this point in time, I don't know what is.

No no no, we need proof from the last 60 minutes from everyone who's ever written the Hulk (including crossovers, Ang Lee, fan-fics etc) that the Hulk has WITHOUT A SHADOW OF A DOUBT never killed anyone, or did something that resulted in any living beings death or injury, either directly or indirectly, mind-controlled or not.

But you can't give me that proof, can you? Because there is NONE!!!

Hulk = Osama Bin Laden

I think it's funny that religious people say they are religious but if I actually believed in god I would live my life like a friggin preacher. Totally dedicated. How can you actually believe in god but not spend your entire life doing nothing but worship in the hopes you'll get a good seat in heaven?

There are lots of different views and opinions on God. It's not as black-and-white as you make it out to be.

[xnef1025]

Hulk kills when he's mindless/possessed. When he's in a normal state of mind he doesn't. That is the current stance in the MU and how hard is that to take? As far as modern/current proof of anything, using data from SHIELD right now is garbage since the organization has been shown to be corrupt and possibly Skrull ridden. The only SHIELD agent I would ever take the word of is Nick Fury.

[bulbasteve]

Major Hulk writers to a man there...
IH 110 must have really hurt you.
Medal for sheer bloodymindedness MR! Wear it with pride.

But that doesn't mean they are anywhere near as good of writers though :p

I mean the only thing I really disagree with Mags about is the fact that if Busiek was writing Hulk tomorrow he would show Hulk trying to kill someone. Unless there was a good story to tell I'm not sure they would "pull a slott" as it were and construct whole issues around their own fanboy interpretation of an issue. Granted Pak isn't half as bad as the Slottster but it's a strange day when I would say that Bendis and Millar aren't hamfisted in their storytelling...but compared to IH 110? Yeah they are downright subtle (yes I said it!)

[Soulfire2]

I'm just saying. At what point does it matter if the Hulk kills someone when his mind is tampered with or not. The fact is that he kills people. It's the reason why he can't be considered a hero.

The Hulk is basically a weapon so what does it matter if he kills when his mind is tampered with or not. OK, maybe the first time it happens it can be over looked but it happens all the time.

To make a real life comparison lets look take a look at nuclear weapons. ( Hulk strenght >= nuclear bomb ). The weapons themselves are pretty much innocent. They just don't go around and blow up places on their own. Yet, every nation gets all up and arms about them and try to dispose of them. The same can be said for the Hulk. He is a weapon and people try to control him and when they do people get hurt.

It's like the whole guns don't kill people, people kill people argument. Well, get rid of the guns and then you won't have to worry about people getting shot. Same applies for the Hulk. Get rid of him and you don't have to worry about him killing people. Even Banner himself admitted he would kill himself if he could. Obviously he feels the same way.

Again, anyone can be brainwashed or tampered with to kill someone. But when you have as much power as the Hulk and it happens repeatedly then get rid of him.

[ivesaidway2much]

But that doesn't mean they are anywhere near as good of writers though :p

I mean the only thing I really disagree with Mags about is the fact that if Busiek was writing Hulk tomorrow he would show Hulk trying to kill someone. Unless there was a good story to tell I'm not sure they would "pull a slott" as it were and construct whole issues around their own fanboy interpretation of an issue. Granted Pak isn't half as bad as the Slottster but it's a strange day when I would say that Bendis and Millar aren't hamfisted in their storytelling...but compared to IH 110? Yeah they are downright subtle (yes I said it!)Found the link (http://forums.millarworld.tv/index.php?showtopic=68332&st=40&p=1543113&#entry1543113).

[bulbasteve]

Found the link (http://forums.millarworld.tv/index.php?showtopic=68332&st=40&p=1543113&#entry1543113).

Cool, thanks a buch. I guess "He's the Hulk" is a lot simpler of a reason than the big posts Slott has made about it :p

[Kevinroc]

Again, anyone can be brainwashed or tampered with to kill someone. But when you have as much power as the Hulk and it happens repeatedly then get rid of him.

Then you should get rid of the Sentry, Black Bolt, Iron Man, Thor, etc.

See, that kind of logic doesn't really work...

[oanswat]

I'm just saying. At what point does it matter if the Hulk kills someone when his mind is tampered with or not. The fact is that he kills people. It's the reason why he can't be considered a hero.

The Hulk is basically a weapon so what does it matter if he kills when his mind is tampered with or not. OK, maybe the first time it happens it can be over looked but it happens all the time.

To make a real life comparison lets look take a look at nuclear weapons. ( Hulk strenght >= nuclear bomb ). The weapons themselves are pretty much innocent. They just don't go around and blow up places on their own. Yet, every nation gets all up and arms about them and try to dispose of them. The same can be said for the Hulk. He is a weapon and people try to control him and when they do people get hurt.

It's like the whole guns don't kill people, people kill people argument. Well, get rid of the guns and then you won't have to worry about people getting shot. Same applies for the Hulk. Get rid of him and you don't have to worry about him killing people. Even Banner himself admitted he would kill himself if he could. Obviously he feels the same way.

Again, anyone can be brainwashed or tampered with to kill someone. But when you have as much power as the Hulk and it happens repeatedly then get rid of him.

I would agree with you, if we were talking about inanimate objects. Were not though, were talking about a human being. One who's suicidal and has little control over himself but the "fact of the matter" is that he's never killed anyone with his own free will. With his own free will he HAS saved the lives of many people and seeing as how we are readers and not characters we get to actually see into his mind to examine his motives. When you have a rabid dog that bites people it does need to be put down but this is, unfortunately, a very different situation and it is because he's a person who needs help rather than an animal who needs to be dealt with. He's a good person in a crappy situation and no one is able to help him. People screw up and other people die because of it all the time but if this person is under mind control or has had there mind tampered with before a crime then that person isn't guilty of that crime. It's just the way it is and you can't exile people for being a pain in the a$$. He's not the green goblin because osborn does what he does intentionally and he does it to himself, for revenge and power. If people would leave Hulk alone instead of attacking him everytime he's spotted then things would be different. He's constantly antagonized. Yes, he has anger problems but that's no excuse to shoot on sight and most of the time when we need him he's cooperative. He's helped save the universe before, I think that allows him the property damage pass anyway.

[Soulfire2]

Then you should get rid of the Sentry, Black Bolt, Iron Man, Thor, etc.

See, that kind of logic doesn't really work...

Actually that logic does work. The other guys you mentioned have stable minds. If their minds are tampered with or someone takes them over then you know for sure that somethings up and it probably won't happen again for a very long time.

Sentry
Who cares about him? He's just a character Marvel made out of thin air. Sure, get rid of him.

Thor
Besides the warrior madness, and even then, when has Thor gone around killing people (who didn't desrve it anyway) and had the general public question his intentions.

Ironman
At least his intentions seemed to be good in Civil War even if he could have done it better.

You see, all these HEROES have sane minds. When the Hulk kills someone there is always this big question mark of was it Banner, the Hulk or someone messing with his mind.

The big difference is all the character's you pointed our are regarded as heroes (even when the cause a full scale war like Ironman, by the way the US government started Civil War, Ironman just supported it). The Hulk on the other hand, is regarded more as a monster than a hero.

[Soulfire2]

I would agree with you, if we were talking about inanimate objects. Were not though, were talking about a human being. One who's suicidal and has little control over himself but the "fact of the matter" is that he's never killed anyone with his own free will. With his own free will he HAS saved the lives of many people and seeing as how we are readers and not characters we get to actually see into his mind to examine his motives. When you have a rabid dog that bites people it does need to be put down but this is, unfortunately, a very different situation and it is because he's a person who needs help rather than an animal who needs to be dealt with. He's a good person in a crappy situation and no one is able to help him. People screw up and other people die because of it all the time but if this person is under mind control or has had there mind tampered with before a crime then that person isn't guilty of that crime. It's just the way it is and you can't exile people for being a pain in the a$$. He's not the green goblin because osborn does what he does intentionally and he does it to himself, for revenge and power. If people would leave Hulk alone instead of attacking him everytime he's spotted then things would be different. He's constantly antagonized. Yes, he has anger problems but that's no excuse to shoot on sight and most of the time when we need him he's cooperative. He's helped save the universe before, I think that allows him the property damage pass anyway.

Thats just it! There were trying to help him. If a "human being" has a problem like the Hulk what would society do. They would put him in a mental institution until they could find a way to cure him right? So is there a mental institution on Earth that can hold the Hulk... ummmm... NO. So they sent him to a planet where he couldn't hurt anyone and no one could hurt him (of course we all know that something went wrong) until they could find a cure. Xavier said he would have even voted the same way. So I don't see what the big deal is. Hell, Banner himself would have agreed. If you were the Hulk and going around causing all that damage and killing people wouldn't you want to get away from it as well? Actually, I don't know you at all so don't answer that.

And come on... if people would just leave him alone he wouldn't Hulk out. Please. I admit if the Marvel Universe was an ideal place that would be great. But you know some villian is going make him Hulk out at some point or another.

[Quinch]

Actually that logic does work. The other guys you mentioned have stable minds. If their minds are tampered with or someone takes them over then you know for sure that somethings up and it probably won't happen again for a very long time.

Sentry
Who cares about him? He's just a character Marvel made out of thin air. Sure, get rid of him.

Thor
Besides the warrior madness, and even then, when has Thor gone around killing people (who didn't desrve it anyway) and had the general public question his intentions.

Ironman
At least his intentions seemed to be good in Civil War even if he could have done it better.

You see, all these HEROES have sane minds. When the Hulk kills someone there is always this big question mark of was it Banner, the Hulk or someone messing with his mind.

The big difference is all the character's you pointed our are regarded as heroes (even when the cause a full scale war like Ironman, by the way the US government started Civil War, Ironman just supported it). The Hulk on the other hand, is regarded more as a monster than a hero.
Er this one's so full of flaws I really don't know where to start.
So I won't.

[Kevinroc]

Actually that logic does work. The other guys you mentioned have stable minds. If their minds are tampered with or someone takes them over then you know for sure that somethings up and it probably won't happen again for a very long time.

Sentry
Who cares about him? He's just a character Marvel made out of thin air. Sure, get rid of him.

Thor
Besides the warrior madness, and even then, when has Thor gone around killing people (who didn't desrve it anyway) and had the general public question his intentions.

Ironman
At least his intentions seemed to be good in Civil War even if he could have done it better.

You see, all these HEROES have sane minds. When the Hulk kills someone there is always this big question mark of was it Banner, the Hulk or someone messing with his mind.

The big difference is all the character's you pointed our are regarded as heroes (even when the cause a full scale war like Ironman, by the way the US government started Civil War, Ironman just supported it). The Hulk on the other hand, is regarded more as a monster than a hero.

You clearly didn't understand what it was that I meant.

Black Bolt has been mind-controlled. They're lucky that situation didn't turn out really horrible.

Thor has been mind-controlled.

The Sentry is The Void. Literally. The Void has killed tons of people. They invite Sentry into the Avengers.

Iron Man, just before Civil War, was being controlled and killed a number of people. He killed them. But he was being mind-controlled.

What you're essentially saying is it was okay to blast Hulk into space for killing people when he's mind-controlled and not doing a thing to Iron Man when he is being mind-controlled.

It's called a double-standard.

[Superbeast]

Actually that logic does work. The other guys you mentioned have stable minds. If their minds are tampered with or someone takes them over then you know for sure that somethings up and it probably won't happen again for a very long time.

Sentry
Who cares about him? He's just a character Marvel made out of thin air. Sure, get rid of him.

Thor
Besides the warrior madness, and even then, when has Thor gone around killing people (who didn't desrve it anyway) and had the general public question his intentions.

Ironman
At least his intentions seemed to be good in Civil War even if he could have done it better.

You see, all these HEROES have sane minds. When the Hulk kills someone there is always this big question mark of was it Banner, the Hulk or someone messing with his mind.

The big difference is all the character's you pointed our are regarded as heroes (even when the cause a full scale war like Ironman, by the way the US government started Civil War, Ironman just supported it). The Hulk on the other hand, is regarded more as a monster than a hero.

Thor killed Desaak in The Destroyer armour via decapitation. He also went mad during the Reigning.

Captain America killed Brother Blood by decapitation.

Sentry killed Carnage by dismemberment. Sentry suffers depression and agoraphobia.

Iron Man while affected by Ultron recently was responsible for a plane crash that killed hundreds. He's previously been shown to be a selfish short tempered abusive alcoholic.

I guess none of these guys are heroes because they killed others, three of them consciously and one under the influence of a robot. Oh yeah, and the last guy is head of S.H.I.E.L.D., face of the SHRA and owner of a billion dollar corporation that supplies the US military with arms to defend America.

Soulfire2, as far as I can see you are not looking to have a discussion, you are looking for validation of your incorrect personal viewpoint that directly contradicts Marvel managment and staff. Unfortunately you're not likely to find any because by your logic nearly all of the Marvel universe who have at one point been possessed/scapegoated by villains should be locked up.

Intent is the case here. Hulk never wants to kill, he just wants to be left alone. His catchphrase is "Hulk Smash!" not "Hulk Kill!" for a reason.

[Soulfire2]

Er this one's so full of flaws I really don't know where to start.
So I won't.

Don't hold back, lets hear the flaws. The first you try to get me on is probably Sentry having a sane mind. Didn't mean to group him in with the rest, its obvious he is a nutcase. Like I said, Marvel created him out of thin air so who cares. Tony has a drinking probably, so what, he is still sane. Sentry not included, how can you say any of them is less sane than the Hulk.

[Soulfire2]

Thor killed Desaak in The Destroyer armour via decapitation. He also went mad during the Reigning.

Captain America killed Brother Blood by decapitation.

Sentry killed Carnage by dismemberment. Sentry suffers depression and agoraphobia.

Iron Man while affected by Ultron recently was responsible for a plane crash that killed hundreds. He's previously been shown to be a selfish short tempered abusive alcoholic.

I guess none of these guys are heroes because they killed others, three of them consciously and one under the influence of a robot. Oh yeah, and the last guy is head of S.H.I.E.L.D., face of the SHRA and owner of a billion dollar corporation that supplies the US military with arms to defend America.

Soulfire2, as far as I can see you are not looking to have a discussion, you are looking for validation of your incorrect personal viewpoint that directly contradicts Marvel managment and staff. Unfortunately you're not likely to find any because by your logic nearly all of the Marvel universe who have at one point been possessed/scapegoated by villains should be locked up.

Intent is the case here. Hulk never wants to kill, he just wants to be left alone. His catchphrase is "Hulk Smash!" not "Hulk Kill!" for a reason.

Look people we can pick this to death. If you look back at my post on the previous page I clearly stated that it happens all the time:


The Hulk is basically a weapon so what does it matter if he kills when his mind is tampered with or not. OK, maybe the first time it happens it can be over looked but it happens all the time.


Never did I say that everyone that is mind controlled should be shot into outerspace. What I said is that it happens all the time with the Hulk. Repeatedly and without fail. If any of the guys listed were mind controlled any where close to the number of times the Hulk has been and actually killed people then I want to see a list. So let me make it clear, I'm not using a double standard.

Superbeast, I'm not trying to justify my personal opinion. My opinion is actually on par with the storyline. Tons of characters, The Illuminati for instance, duh, think the Hulk should have been shot into outer space. If so many characters in the Marvel Universe believe that then how can I be as you stated:


Soulfire2, as far as I can see you are not looking to have a discussion, you are looking for validation of your incorrect personal viewpoint that directly contradicts Marvel managment and staff.


Please answer me this :)

[ivesaidway2much]

Don't hold back, lets hear the flaws. The first you try to get me on is probably Sentry having a sane mind. Didn't mean to group him in with the rest, its obvious he is a nutcase. Like I said, Marvel created him out of thin air so who cares. Tony has a drinking probably, so what, he is still sane. Sentry not included, how can you say any of them is less sane than the Hulk.That they've done several of the things the Hulk has done while being saner than him should be a point against the "heroes", not one in their favor. Being a slightly better than someone you consider to be a crazed, monstrous killing machine, doesn't sound all that heroic to me. At least the Hulk is crazy, what's Tony, Reed, or Black Bolt's excuse?

[ivesaidway2much]

Never did I say that everyone that is mind controlled should be shot into outerspace. What I said is that it happens all the time with the Hulk. Repeatedly and without fail. If any of the guys listed were mind controlled any where close to the number of times the Hulk has been and actually killed people then I want to see a list. So let me make it clear, I'm not using a double standard.So your argument is that because the Hulk has been victimized by his friends and enemies more times than other superhumans, he deserves to be punished even further?

[Magneto Rocks]

But that doesn't mean they are anywhere near as good of writers though :p

I mean the only thing I really disagree with Mags about is the fact that if Busiek was writing Hulk tomorrow he would show Hulk trying to kill someone. Unless there was a good story to tell I'm not sure they would "pull a slott" as it were and construct whole issues around their own fanboy interpretation of an issue. Granted Pak isn't half as bad as the Slottster but it's a strange day when I would say that Bendis and Millar aren't hamfisted in their storytelling...but compared to IH 110? Yeah they are downright subtle (yes I said it!)

Actually as usual, bulba... we DON'T disagree. I wasn't saying he would show that, Busiek's a bigger man than that- I was pointing out that he COULD, in theory do this. And according to our friends here, if he wrote one issue of Hulk and then said "Oh yeah, and Hulk kills," it must automatically be canon true and indisputable. ;)

Major Hulk writers to a man there...
IH 110 must have really hurt you.
Medal for sheer bloodymindedness MR! Wear it with pride.

I was unaware that being a Hulk writer meant one is automatically right when talking about Hulk.

So if someone who thinsk Hulk DOES kill becomes Hulk writer, that creates some sort of warping space time paradox, right? Why on Earth would Ih 110 hurt me? I say now exactly what I said before it, it certainly presented no definitive evidence.

[ivesaidway2much]

Actually as usual, bulba... we DON'T disagree. I wasn't saying he would show that, Busiek's a bigger man than that- I was pointing out that he COULD, in theory do this. And according to our friends here, if he wrote one issue of Hulk and then said "Oh yeah, and Hulk kills," it must automatically be canon true and indisputable. ;)We wouldn't like it, but yeah that's how things generally work in comics. Until Xorneto comes around to retcon punch it away.

So if someone who thinsk Hulk DOES kill becomes Hulk writer, that creates some sort of warping space time paradox, right? Why on Earth would Ih 110 hurt me? I say now exactly what I said before it, it certainly presented no definitive evidence.It actually did present a fair amount of definitive evidence.

[Soulfire2]

So your argument is that because the Hulk has been victimized by his friends and enemies more times than other superhumans, he deserves to be punished even further?

So where does it stop then. Doesn't matter if its his fault after a while. Lets say someone mind controls him again and he kills 1000. Lets say someone mind controls him again and he kills 10000. At what point do you say "we can never stop people from mind controlling him so lets get rid of him till we find a cure." I admit its a tough decision and I wouldn't want to be the one to make it. At what point do you start thinking about your our friends and family and when they might be around when the Hulk goes on a rampage. Are you getting it now? So the answer is yes, because it happens to the Hulk all the time send him away. The Illuminati sent him away to stop the killings, now matter how the killings were happening. When they find a cure then bring him back. A famous Star Trek quote, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."

[Soulfire2]

So your argument is that because the Hulk has been victimized by his friends and enemies more times than other superhumans, he deserves to be punished even further?

If it happened to Thor or Ironman every other issue of their respective comic title then I would support it as well :)

[ivesaidway2much]

So where does it stop then. Doesn't matter if its his fault after a while. Lets say someone mind controls him again and he kills 1000. Lets say someone mind controls him again and he kills 10000. At what point do you say "we can never stop people from mind controlling him so lets get rid of him till we find a cure." I admit its a tough decision and I wouldn't want to be the one to make it. At what point do you start thinking about your our friends and family and when they might be around when the Hulk goes on a rampage. Are you getting it now? So the answer is yes, because it happens to the Hulk all the time send him away. The Illuminati sent him away to stop the killings, now matter how the killings were happening. When they find a cure then bring him back. A famous Star Trek quote, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."The problem with this scenario is that it ignores the bigger issue of all these mind-controllers running around. With the Hulk out of the picture, are they all just going to disappear or are they just going to go after the next strongest guy on the list? Punishing the victim does nothing to stop the attackers.

[Kevinroc]

So where does it stop then. Doesn't matter if its his fault after a while. Lets say someone mind controls him again and he kills 1000. Lets say someone mind controls him again and he kills 10000. At what point do you say "we can never stop people from mind controlling him so lets get rid of him till we find a cure." I admit its a tough decision and I wouldn't want to be the one to make it. At what point do you start thinking about your our friends and family and when they might be around when the Hulk goes on a rampage. Are you getting it now? So the answer is yes, because it happens to the Hulk all the time send him away. The Illuminati sent him away to stop the killings, now matter how the killings were happening. When they find a cure then bring him back. A famous Star Trek quote, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."

I'm not really a religious man but "Whatsoever you do to the least of my people, that you do unto me."

Your argument is just an intense double standard that could be applied to anyone. You can make the argument that Tony should have been blasted into space for his actions just before Civil War (when he was being mind-controlled and killed many people).

[Superbeast]

I'm not really a religious man but "Whatsoever you do to the least of my people, that you do unto me."

Your argument is just an intense double standard that could be applied to anyone. You can make the argument that Tony should have been blasted into space for his actions just before Civil War (when he was being mind-controlled and killed many people).

I already mentioned that and he's chose to ignore it. In fact I listed flaws of the characters he mentioned and where they killed despite being heroes.

"Hulk without a mind is dangerous and has killed, Hulk with Banner present kills, ergo both should suffer for one's actions." Effectively this is kill the messenger logic.

The Illuminati didn't send him away because he killed people out of choice, it's because the Savage Hulk is uncontrollable and his rampages destroyed cities and as a result cost lives. They sent him away so he could finally be alone and no risk to Earth, not as punishment for killing people. There is no cure for Banner's problem so rather than solve the problem or cure him permanently, so they sought to remove him as a potential risk... which worked out perfect, thus proving their actions were right and justified, right?

Hulk is not going around twisting people's heads off out of spite, the damage he causes is collateral and any deaths are at best manslaughter. He's not an active psycho or sociopath killing out who has chosen to kill out of malice, he strikes out at those who get in his way and won't leave him alone but has no sense of his own strength in Savage form.

[Soulfire2]

I already mentioned that and he's chose to ignore it. In fact I listed flaws of the characters he mentioned and where they killed despite being heroes.

"Hulk without a mind is dangerous and has killed, Hulk with Banner present kills, ergo both should suffer for one's actions." Effectively this is kill the messenger logic.

The Illuminati didn't send him away because he killed people out of choice, it's because the Savage Hulk is uncontrollable and his rampages destroyed cities and as a result cost lives. They sent him away so he could finally be alone and no risk to Earth, not as punishment for killing people. There is no cure for Banner's problem so rather than solve the problem or cure him permanently, so they sought to remove him as a potential risk... which worked out perfect, thus proving their actions were right and justified, right?

Hulk is not going around twisting people's heads off out of spite, the damage he causes is collateral and any deaths are at best manslaughter. He's not an active psycho or sociopath killing out who has chosen to kill out of malice, he strikes out at those who get in his way and won't leave him alone but has no sense of his own strength in Savage form.

I guess I'm going to have to spell it out. I KNOW THAT THE HULK DOES NOT KILL ON PURPOSE. (At least we have no evidence to say one way or the other). My point again, is that he does kill. Even if a child kills you still punish him right? All I've been saying this time is that the Illuminati were right in sending him away to stop the killing and/or collateral damage.

Yes you have pointed out other characters that have killed but like I said a thousand times it doesn't happen on a repeat basis like the Hulk. Hell, the Hulk causes at the minimum collateral damage every other issue.

[Superbeast]

I guess I'm going to have to spell it out. I KNOW THAT THE HULK DOES NOT KILL ON PURPOSE. (At least we have no evidence to say one way or the other). My point again, is that he does kill. Even if a child kills you still punish him right? All I've been saying this time is that the Illuminati were right in sending him away to stop the killing and/or collateral damage.

Yes you have pointed out other characters that have killed but like I said a thousand times it doesn't happen on a repeat basis like the Hulk. Hell, the Hulk causes at the minimum collateral damage every other issue.

What about the Punisher then? Doesn't he deserve far worse since he chooses to kill on a regular basis?

What about Tony Stark who's Doomsday device would have absorbed all of New York into a wormhole?

How about Wolverine who recently chopped off Sabretooth's head?

Do all of these guys get passes because they don't cause the kind of dangerous collateral damage Hulk does even though they do these things or plan them with intent to kill?

Do you think no other heroes have caused casualties in their actions because they've not been able to save everyone in the line of fire? I mean, how many times has New York been torn up during superhero fights? Every single week it seems. Should every hero that lives there be exiled for making the city a magnet for villains and a place where your building could collapse due to a stray energy blast any day of the week?

Also it was impossible to prosecute Banner before because he was impossible to detain and he was even exonerated of his crimes at one point because The Hulk is a fragment of Banner while Banner has never maliciously killed anyone.

Let's look at people who suffer from mental illnesses that make them hostile... do we just lock them up or do we try treat them? What if they are incurable, do we just lock them away abandon them or do we try medicate them, educate them and give them some semblance of a normal life?

The fact the Hulk is a separate personality given form does not make it any more possible for him to be prosecuted than the schizophrenic who hears voices in his head and attacks people on the street for "screaming" at him. The best they could do with him is put him in a padded cell on lots of drugs but as soon as he goes for therapy, boom, Hulk out.

[Kevinroc]

I guess I'm going to have to spell it out. I KNOW THAT THE HULK DOES NOT KILL ON PURPOSE. (At least we have no evidence to say one way or the other). My point again, is that he does kill. Even if a child kills you still punish him right? All I've been saying this time is that the Illuminati were right in sending him away to stop the killing and/or collateral damage.

Yes you have pointed out other characters that have killed but like I said a thousand times it doesn't happen on a repeat basis like the Hulk. Hell, the Hulk causes at the minimum collateral damage every other issue.

With Iron Man, we have two recent examples where he was being controlled and killed people. Sounds like he should have shot himself into space by your logic.

[Soulfire2]

What about the Punisher then? Doesn't he deserve far worse since he chooses to kill on a regular basis?

What about Tony Stark who's Doomsday device would have absorbed all of New York into a wormhole?

How about Wolverine who recently chopped off Sabretooth's head?

Do all of these guys get passes because they don't cause the kind of dangerous collateral damage Hulk does even though they do these things or plan them with intent to kill?

Do you think no other heroes have caused casualties in their actions because they've not been able to save everyone in the line of fire? I mean, how many times has New York been torn up during superhero fights? Every single week it seems. Should every hero that lives there be exiled for making the city a magnet for villains and a place where your building could collapse due to a stray energy blast any day of the week?

Also it was impossible to prosecute Banner before because he was impossible to detain and he was even exonerated of his crimes at one point because The Hulk is a fragment of Banner while Banner has never maliciously killed anyone.

Let's look at people who suffer from mental illnesses that make them hostile... do we just lock them up or do we try treat them? What if they are incurable, do we just lock them away abandon them or do we try medicate them, educate them and give them some semblance of a normal life?

The fact the Hulk is a separate personality given form does not make it any more possible for him to be prosecuted than the schizophrenic who hears voices in his head and attacks people on the street for "screaming" at him. The best they could do with him is put him in a padded cell on lots of drugs but as soon as he goes for therapy, boom, Hulk out.

Before I reply let me make it known that I believe there is a difference between killing the bad guys and innocents (again, I know the Hulk doesn't kill innocents on purpose).

So In the Punisher's case if he's going around killing innocents then yes he deserves far worst. You get no argument from me there. I'm not a big reader of the Punisher comic so I won't claim to be. If on the other hand he is going around killing the bad guys then that can at least be somewhat debatable. You could argue that he is saving more lives by killing those who would kill many others or you could argue that he can't take justice in his own hands and the criminals deserve a second chance. I'm not going to have that moral conversation here nor will I state which stance I would take.

I think Tony Stark's doomsday device wasn't a definite bad thing. If you had a bunch of alien's coming to Earth to try to take over (which is what it probably looked like when the Hulk showed up with them) then why not blow up a city to keep the rest of the world safe from invasion. Again, this is a moral decision. But I don't think it can be judged to be a cruel and inhumane thing to do considering he would be saving the rest of the world. Hell, If the Earth really was invaded and we had to blow up NY or any other city to protect us (even the one I was living in) I would understand.

In Wolverine's case he killed a cold blooded killer. Sabertooth is far from innocent and deserves to die a thousand times over. All that's left to consider here is should Wolverine take the law into his own hands. Unlike the Punisher's case, I would have to say I would side with Wolverine. I would probably argue with Wolverine for not killing him long ago, lol.

Of course other Super Heroes cause collateral damage. The only difference is "supposedly" they are doing more good than bad in stopping super villians. I guess that's not always the case as with what happened with Nitro to start Civil War. Things won't always go smoothly. Difference is the Hulk goes around causing damage for no apparent reason other than he is mad. See the difference?

People who suffer from mental illnesses... yes... we do lock them up. What planet do you live on? When people have mental illnesses that cause them to be a danger to themselves and/or others we lock them up in institutions and try to treat them at the same time. Careful here, you're actually supporting my argument by bringing that up. What instition can hold the Hulk? Exactly, so then send him to another planet until a cure is found.

[Lord Moon]

I think Tony Stark's doomsday device wasn't a definite bad thing. If you had a bunch of alien's coming to Earth to try to take over (which is what it probably looked like when the Hulk showed up with them) then why not blow up a city to keep the rest of the world safe from invasion. Again, this is a moral decision. But I don't think it can be judged to be a cruel and inhumane thing to do considering he would be saving the rest of the world. Hell, If the Earth really was invaded and we had to blow up NY or any other city to protect us (even the one I was living in) I would understand.


I think I'd take my chance with the aliens than with a government that would rather kill me than relinquish power. And any alien armada is likely to have kept most of their force still in space anyway.

Still you would have inflicted a crushing disappointment upon them as they say "Darn it, we were going to do that".

[Soulfire2]

I think I'd take my chance with the aliens than with a government that would rather kill me than relinquish power. And any alien armada is likely to have kept most of their force still in space anyway.

Still you would have inflicted a crushing disappointment upon them as they say "Darn it, we were going to do that".

That wasn't the way it was written though. In this case blowing up NY would have stopped the invasion.

[Lord Moon]

That wasn't the way it was written though. In this case blowing up NY would have stopped the invasion.

It would still be worse than what has actually occurred as a result of that invasion though.

[Soulfire2]

It would still be worse than what has actually occurred as a result of that invasion though.

Mankind enslaved for who knows how many years or decades or centuries vs blowing up a city to ensure freedom. Guess its a matter of opinion and one of those hard moral decisions. If you blow up NY people will complain. If you don't and mankind is enslaved then people would ask why it wasn't done.

[Lord Moon]

Mankind enslaved for who knows how many years or decades or centuries vs blowing up a city to ensure freedom. Guess its a matter of opinion and one of those hard moral decisions. If you blow up NY people will complain. If you don't and mankind is enslaved then people would ask why it wasn't done.

I claim the freedom to make a double post

[Lord Moon]

Mankind enslaved for who knows how many years or decades or centuries vs blowing up a city to ensure freedom. Guess its a matter of opinion and one of those hard moral decisions. If you blow up NY people will complain. If you don't and mankind is enslaved then people would ask why it wasn't done.

I'd rather get the chance to fight against an oppressor than see millions of people killed for my assured freedom. I don't think I'd want freedom at that cost.

I would dress up in a Robin Hood costume and smite the invader and live in the Greenwood. And get shot.

[Soulfire2]

I'd rather get the chance to fight against an oppressor than see millions of people killed for my assured freedom. I don't think I'd want freedom at that cost.

I would dress up in a Robin Hood costume and smite the invader and live in the Greenwood. And get shot.

Robin Hood, lol. That reminded me of Men in Tights. That movie was hilarious. But anyway, I'll bring up one more point. If mankind was enslaved then just as many people or more would probably be killed by the oppressors anyway. Just something else to think about.

[Lord Moon]

Robin Hood, lol. That reminded me of Men in Tights. That movie was hilarious. But anyway, I'll bring up one more point. If mankind was enslaved then just as many people or more would probably be killed by the oppressors anyway. Just something else to think about.

It depends which alien race it was. Daleks or Mars Attacks aliens would kill everyone eventually anyway so yes that might be a plan. I could also see a case if it was bodysnatching pod people. But if it was those effeminate flouncy middle-aged aliens from Plan 9 From Outer Space, I would balk at destroying New York when they come a-threatening.

And how embarrassing would it be if you exploded a city to stop the martians from War of the Worlds, only to find they were going to die of a cold anyway.

Specific to the Hulk invasion though, he hasn't really enslaved anyone much, except for the superheroes (who are always getting enslaved in their own comics anyway, so should be used to it). All the Hulk has really done is cause some property damage and blowing the place up wouldn't really make that any better.

[Soulfire2]

It depends which alien race it was. Daleks or Mars Attacks aliens would kill everyone eventually anyway so yes that might be a plan. I could also see a case if it was bodysnatching pod people. But if it was those effeminate flouncy middle-aged aliens from Plan 9 From Outer Space, I would balk at destroying New York when they come a-threatening.

And how embarrassing would it be if you exploded a city to stop the martians from War of the Worlds, only to find they were going to die of a cold anyway.

Specific to the Hulk invasion though, he hasn't really enslaved anyone much, except for the superheroes (who are always getting enslaved in their own comics anyway, so should be used to it). All the Hulk has really done is cause some property damage and blowing the place up wouldn't really make that any better.

This is all true since hind sight is 20/20. The thing about the Hulk invasion is that he sent a telecast to let everyone know what was up. Before that though, who would have known what to expect.

[Superbeast]

Before I reply let me make it known that I believe there is a difference between killing the bad guys and innocents (again, I know the Hulk doesn't kill innocents on purpose).

So In the Punisher's case if he's going around killing innocents then yes he deserves far worst. You get no argument from me there. I'm not a big reader of the Punisher comic so I won't claim to be. If on the other hand he is going around killing the bad guys then that can at least be somewhat debatable. You could argue that he is saving more lives by killing those who would kill many others or you could argue that he can't take justice in his own hands and the criminals deserve a second chance. I'm not going to have that moral conversation here nor will I state which stance I would take.

I think Tony Stark's doomsday device wasn't a definite bad thing. If you had a bunch of alien's coming to Earth to try to take over (which is what it probably looked like when the Hulk showed up with them) then why not blow up a city to keep the rest of the world safe from invasion. Again, this is a moral decision. But I don't think it can be judged to be a cruel and inhumane thing to do considering he would be saving the rest of the world. Hell, If the Earth really was invaded and we had to blow up NY or any other city to protect us (even the one I was living in) I would understand.

In Wolverine's case he killed a cold blooded killer. Sabertooth is far from innocent and deserves to die a thousand times over. All that's left to consider here is should Wolverine take the law into his own hands. Unlike the Punisher's case, I would have to say I would side with Wolverine. I would probably argue with Wolverine for not killing him long ago, lol.

Of course other Super Heroes cause collateral damage. The only difference is "supposedly" they are doing more good than bad in stopping super villians. I guess that's not always the case as with what happened with Nitro to start Civil War. Things won't always go smoothly. Difference is the Hulk goes around causing damage for no apparent reason other than he is mad. See the difference?

People who suffer from mental illnesses... yes... we do lock them up. What planet do you live on? When people have mental illnesses that cause them to be a danger to themselves and/or others we lock them up in institutions and try to treat them at the same time. Careful here, you're actually supporting my argument by bringing that up. What instition can hold the Hulk? Exactly, so then send him to another planet until a cure is found.

Your own argument is flawed.

You accept collateral damage/deaths as part of superheroics and plans to stop The Hulk, however then have an issue when the Hulk's rampages may or may not kill people? Last time I checked, 1st degree murder is a lot different than manslaughter and is judged more harshly also.

Hulk didn't come back to invade the planet and destroy it, he came for the heads of the Illuminati. Sucking a whole city including your friends and other innocent people into a black hole to avoid your comeuppance is hardly a solid moral high ground.

You seem to have confused locking someone away for crimes and locking someone away because they are mentally unstable.

Mentally unstable people are treated away from others but they are still treated, not just locked away until a cure is found. A lot of mental conditions are incurable but we don't load up boats with schizophrenics, psychopaths and multiple personality disorder patients before sending them to deserted islands, do we?

[Soulfire2]

Your own argument is flawed.

You accept collateral damage/deaths as part of superheroics and plans to stop The Hulk, however then have an issue when the Hulk's rampages may or may not kill people? Last time I checked, 1st degree murder is a lot different than manslaughter and is judged more harshly also.

Hulk didn't come back to invade the planet and destroy it, he came for the heads of the Illuminati. Sucking a whole city including your friends and other innocent people into a black hole to avoid your comeuppance is hardly a solid moral high ground.

You seem to have confused locking someone away for crimes and locking someone away because they are mentally unstable.

Mentally unstable people are treated away from others but they are still treated, not just locked away until a cure is found. A lot of mental conditions are incurable but we don't load up boats with schizophrenics, psychopaths and multiple personality disorder patients before sending them to deserted islands, do we?

Ok, I guess I have to spell out everything for you. I'll just accept that.

First of all in regards to the invasion, I said "at first" it looked like that's what was happening. It wasn't until the Hulk voiced what he was there for did everything calm down and Ironman went to face him one on one. No duh, the Hulk didn't come to take over. Don't get the conversations confused. Lord Moon and I were talking about what would be correct/incorrect to do if Earth actually did get invaded. Guess you didn't read the rest of the thread.

Secondly, I said "when" people who have mental issues and become a "threat to themsevles and/or others" are locked away. Just to spell it out for you, this doesn't mean someone that has ADD. The key word is a "threat" with means they are going around hurting people like the Hulk. Sure, there is a difference between prision and a mental instution. Again, I said what institution can hold the Hulk? Therefore they sent him off to another planet until a cure could be found. If you take the time to check, there isn't a cure for every person in a mental instution either, yet they are still in the institution.

Why don't you try reading my posts word for word before you jump in and start putting words in my mouth.

[Superbeast]

Ok, I guess I have to spell out everything for you. I'll just accept that.

First of all in regards to the invasion, I said "at first" it looked like that's what was happening. It wasn't until the Hulk voiced what he was there for did everything calm down and Ironman went to face him one on one. No duh, the Hulk didn't come to take over. Don't get the conversations confused. Lord Moon and I were talking about what would be correct/incorrect to do if Earth actually did get invaded. Guess you didn't read the rest of the thread.

Secondly, I said "when" people who have mental issues and become a "threat to themsevles and/or others" are locked away. Just to spell it out for you, this doesn't mean someone that has ADD. The key word is a "threat" with means they are going around hurting people like the Hulk. Sure, there is a difference between prision and a mental instution. Again, I said what institution can hold the Hulk? Therefore they sent him off to another planet until a cure could be found. If you take the time to check, there isn't a cure for every person in a mental instution either, yet they are still in the institution.

Why don't you try reading my posts word for word before you jump in and start putting words in my mouth.

I have read your posts and I've not replied to anything you haven't stated. Please find where I've misquoted you or put words in your mouth.

You still haven't explained WHY in your eyes manslaughter by The Hulk is inexcusable and deserving of exile compared to outright murder/mass murder by other heroes who are in control of what they are doing who then suffer no punishment and are worthy of being excused.

Also, I don't know if you've ever been to visit anyone at a care home, but even hostile mental patients generally aren't locked up all the time simply because they could potentially lash out.

[ShaggyB]

Forgive me if this has been covered in some other thread already. I picked up a collection of the comics leading up to Civil War the other day. It's one of Marvel's new collection of books that has all the Civil War storyline condensed down to several books.

I noticed that when the Illuminati was decided to shoot Hulk into outerspace they were talking about all the ways they tried to help him before. It was mentioned that Professor X went into Banner's mind once to try to help him. All they discovered was that if he "Banner" could kill himself he would have done it a long time ago. This is because he obviously hurts in kills people when he is out of control.

Now just how people has the Hulk killed. Well, not many mainstream Marvel characters but the unnamed list must be pretty long. I say this only because in the same issue there was a lady in SHIELD who told Iron Man he hurt injured and killed many people over the years and that it was their fault if they didn't stop him. In his Vegas rampage he killed/injured something like 20/30 people and a dog.

So if the Hulk has killed anywhere near this number of people and Banner admits he would kill himself if possible, doesn't this mean that the Hulk has no right to be angry for being shot into outerspace? Besides the fact that he is the Hulk and is just looking for a reason to fight anyway. For these reasons I have to side against the Hulk. Thoughts and comments.

Go read Hulk: The end or the reprint in Giant Sized. Its about Banner wanting to kill himself and hulk not letting him. (among other things)

[Quinch]

While we are on the subject of collateral damage ending in deaths - can Soulfire or anyone plase produce any evidence that shows he has in fact done so that is not out of Cmdr Hill's mouth?
I feel I'll have to wait a while...
Oh and Mags I see you went the denial route. No biggie.

[Soulfire2]

I have read your posts and I've not replied to anything you haven't stated. Please find where I've misquoted you or put words in your mouth.

You still haven't explained WHY in your eyes manslaughter by The Hulk is inexcusable and deserving of exile compared to outright murder/mass murder by other heroes who are in control of what they are doing who then suffer no punishment and are worthy of being excused.

Also, I don't know if you've ever been to visit anyone at a care home, but even hostile mental patients generally aren't locked up all the time simply because they could potentially lash out.

I did respond to your post. It was the second post on page 5 of this thread. Let me paste if for you:


Before I reply let me make it known that I believe there is a difference between killing the bad guys and innocents (again, I know the Hulk doesn't kill innocents on purpose).

So In the Punisher's case if he's going around killing innocents then yes he deserves far worst. You get no argument from me there. I'm not a big reader of the Punisher comic so I won't claim to be. If on the other hand he is going around killing the bad guys then that can at least be somewhat debatable. You could argue that he is saving more lives by killing those who would kill many others or you could argue that he can't take justice in his own hands and the criminals deserve a second chance. I'm not going to have that moral conversation here nor will I state which stance I would take.

I think Tony Stark's doomsday device wasn't a definite bad thing. If you had a bunch of alien's coming to Earth to try to take over (which is what it probably looked like when the Hulk showed up with them) then why not blow up a city to keep the rest of the world safe from invasion. Again, this is a moral decision. But I don't think it can be judged to be a cruel and inhumane thing to do considering he would be saving the rest of the world. Hell, If the Earth really was invaded and we had to blow up NY or any other city to protect us (even the one I was living in) I would understand.

In Wolverine's case he killed a cold blooded killer. Sabertooth is far from innocent and deserves to die a thousand times over. All that's left to consider here is should Wolverine take the law into his own hands. Unlike the Punisher's case, I would have to say I would side with Wolverine. I would probably argue with Wolverine for not killing him long ago, lol.

Of course other Super Heroes cause collateral damage. The only difference is "supposedly" they are doing more good than bad in stopping super villians. I guess that's not always the case as with what happened with Nitro to start Civil War. Things won't always go smoothly. Difference is the Hulk goes around causing damage for no apparent reason other than he is mad. See the difference?

People who suffer from mental illnesses... yes... we do lock them up. What planet do you live on? When people have mental illnesses that cause them to be a danger to themselves and/or others we lock them up in institutions and try to treat them at the same time. Careful here, you're actually supporting my argument by bringing that up. What instition can hold the Hulk? Exactly, so then send him to another planet until a cure is found.

[dabig2]

Just wanted to say that the Hulk and all his incarnations are actual, corporeal free-thinking individuals like you and I. They are not just in Bruce's head. They have physicality and awareness.

The potential problem here is one of those manifestations- the Savage Hulk. And that's only on occassions where a stimulus is provided-say army hunting him down and then he protects himself or a villain hunting him down and again he protects himself. When he does that, things get damaged and people may or may not get hurt (NOT killed) depending on if the attacker was stupid enough to engage near a populated area. And then of course the other problem is when his mind is completely wiped, like say from a close proximity gamma bomb blast or some cosmic force screwing with his mind.

Now, Hulk for the last 20 odd years our time has been mostly in-control. Hardly befitting such an exile so late in the game. Here's the argument. The savage Hulk hasn't killed people. None of the Hulks have killed a soul. Those incidences where lives were taken were when some "comic book coincidence" happened that wiped his mind clean of any personality. Left only a shell of flesh and bone.

In other words, it's unfair and wrong to just assume that it'll happen again "just because he's the Hulk". This is why people mention mind-control and whatever for the other heroes. You can't just assume "oh yeah, Iron Man's armor is going to get compromised again for the 10th time in a year, so he should go rocket himself and all of his genius to some abandoned planet". It's the same reasoning. The incidences where Hulk did kill people, I mean look at what had to happen for that: Nightmare screwing with Bruce's mind causing Bruce to psychologically kill himself. Sampson actually physically separating Bruce from Hulk. Hulk being asked by SHIELD to disable a terrorist device and having another one of those "comic book coincidences" where it just happened to be an original gamma bomb? I mean come on. Throw him a bone here. Him going berserk just doesn't happen "just because and probably always".

People seem to get the incorrect assumption here that Hulk has been leveling cities per 2 issues because some villain was bored and goaded him into doing it or Hulk starts throwing skyscrapers around whenever cops start shooting at him in a crowded city like ****ing idiots or (my favorite) "just because he's mad".

And yes Mags and those of his ilk, Hulk when he has a personality in him has not killed a soul. His mindless husk has, but not the Hulk. Your boys, Bendis and whoever, were right. He has a body count. But they didn't specify the conditions. So Pak specified for them. So yes, your boys were right. Not what they intended though? They thought he'd been averaging kills in every single altercation between 1964 and 1983? Tough luck. Sorry to disappoint. But I'm sure you're keeping the dream alive regardless.

[Soulfire2]

Just wanted to say that the Hulk and all his incarnations are actual, corporeal free-thinking individuals like you and I. They are not just in Bruce's head. They have physicality and awareness.

The potential problem here is one of those manifestations- the Savage Hulk. And that's only on occassions where a stimulus is provided-say army hunting him down and then he protects himself or a villain hunting him down and again he protects himself. When he does that, things get damaged and people may or may not get hurt (NOT killed) depending on if the attacker was stupid enough to engage near a populated area. And then of course the other problem is when his mind is completely wiped, like say from a close proximity gamma bomb blast or some cosmic force screwing with his mind.

Now, Hulk for the last 20 odd years our time has been mostly in-control. Hardly befitting such an exile so late in the game. Here's the argument. The savage Hulk hasn't killed people. None of the Hulks have killed a soul. Those incidences where lives were taken were when some "comic book coincidence" happened that wiped his mind clean of any personality. Left only a shell of flesh and bone.

In other words, it's unfair and wrong to just assume that it'll happen again "just because he's the Hulk". This is why people mention mind-control and whatever for the other heroes. You can't just assume "oh yeah, Iron Man's armor is going to get compromised again for the 10th time in a year, so he should go rocket himself and all of his genius to some abandoned planet". It's the same reasoning. The incidences where Hulk did kill people, I mean look at what had to happen for that: Nightmare screwing with Bruce's mind causing Bruce to psychologically kill himself. Sampson actually physically separating Bruce from Hulk. Hulk being asked by SHIELD to disable a terrorist device and having another one of those "comic book coincidences" where it just happened to be an original gamma bomb? I mean come on. Throw him a bone here. Him going berserk just doesn't happen "just because and probably always".

People seem to get the incorrect assumption here that Hulk has been leveling cities per 2 issues because some villain was bored and goaded him into doing it or Hulk starts throwing skyscrapers around whenever cops start shooting at him in a crowded city like ****ing idiots or (my favorite) "just because he's mad".

And yes Mags and those of his ilk, Hulk when he has a personality in him has not killed a soul. His mindless husk has, but not the Hulk. Your boys, Bendis and whoever, were right. He has a body count. But they didn't specify the conditions. So Pak specified for them. So yes, your boys were right. Not what they intended though? They thought he'd been averaging kills in every single altercation between 1964 and 1983? Tough luck. Sorry to disappoint. But I'm sure you're keeping the dream alive regardless.

I'm just going by how the characters react in the comics. Everyone keeps saying that what the Hulk did is no worst than when Thor, Ironman or any other hero kills someone. Well if you can answer me these question sconvincingly I will be quiet.

If the deaths that the other hero's caused are just as bad as what the Hulk does then why did the comic characters pick the Hulk instead of banishing some other heros? Why is it that none of the characters make the point that other heros have killed before (intended or not, mind wiped or not)? You see, they way the comics are written, every other hero thinks the Hulk is the only problem. Yes there were a few like Namor that took his side.

Again, why is it that all the common people in the comics fear Hulk when he comes walking up and not Thor or Ironman. Well, because the Hulk is dangerous and out of control (even when not mind control).

You see, in the comics, the general population fears the Hulk more than any other hero. There has got to be a reason for that you see. Apparently they don't think the deaths caused by the other heros are as great as the Hulks. Or at least they think they are more excusable. And don't use Sentry as an example because he was created from no where, lol.

[Superbeast]

I did respond to your post. It was the second post on page 5 of this thread. Let me paste if for you:

I read your reply and replied accordingly. You acknowledge Punisher and Wolverine as murderers but defend them because they haven't killed innocents. However, you then defend Iron Man's plan to kill/leave innocents trapped in a different dimension as it would be for the greater good: "The needs of the many outweight the needs of the few". I'd argue everyone has a right to live regardless of the decision of higher ups and to damn them to death/exile "for the greater good" is Aryan logic, the ends don't always justify the means.

Again you have failed to answer my simple request to justify WHY the Hulk is deserving of persecution for unintentional manslaughter yet you can excuse Tony's plans to send New York City and all within it into a wormhole.

You flipped flopped on your own statement about The Hulk's intent and then seek to support your argument by citing your dialogue with Lord Moon, as if that somehow eliminates your erroneous claims about Hulk's intent upon returning to Earth.

You claim I didn't read your post but the very one you refer me to is the same one I quoted in my reply.

Bored now.

[Soulfire2]

I read your reply and replied accordingly. You acknowledge Punisher and Wolverine as murderers but defend them because they haven't killed innocents. However, you then defend Iron Man's plan to kill/leave innocents trapped in a different dimension as it would be for the greater good: "The needs of the many outweight the needs of the few". I'd argue everyone has a right to live regardless of the decision of higher ups and to damn them to death/exile "for the greater good" is Aryan logic, the ends don't always justify the means.

Again you have failed to answer my simple request to justify WHY the Hulk is deserving of persecution for unintentional manslaughter yet you can excuse Tony's plans to send New York City and all within it into a wormhole.

You flipped flopped on your own statement about The Hulk's intent and then seek to support your argument by citing your dialogue with Lord Moon, as if that somehow eliminates your erroneous claims about Hulk's intent upon returning to Earth.

You claim I didn't read your post but the very one you refer me to is the same one I quoted in my reply.

Bored now.

The needs of the few do out weigh the needs of the many. I will continue to excuse Tony Stark's plans to blow up NYC. I will give you a perfect example in real life to justify it. Do you know anything about WWII. We dropped an atom bomb on Hiroshima. Thousands died there but what did it do? It ended the war right after that. Now I know WWII was a different situation because we were already at war. My point is, Earth didn't know who the Warbound were when they showed up. Again, if the Hulk had not done his telecast everyone would have thought that New York was going to be taken over by an alien race.

By your argument the US shouldn't have bombed Hiroshima to end the war. If they hadn't, then thousands more would have contiued to die and the US and democracy as we know it might not even exist.

Now I will admit, its a tough decision to make when you have to sacrifice lives to save others and I wouldn't want to make it but it doesn't mean the decision is wrong.

That's why I defend Tony Stark's decision. He wasn't thinking out of madness, he was actually thinking by putting the fate of the rest of the world over New York city. I believe that's exactly how the writters wanted to portray that.

For the record, I never flip flopped on my post. I said that the Hulk kills. Everyone says that the Hulk only kills when mind controled. Has the Hulk accidentally killed when on one of his non mind controlled rampages. Its been argued a thousand times already that no where does it say one way or the other. So I just chalk that up to who no one really knows. What I have been focusing on is that the Illuminati aren't bad guys for sending him away. Banner himself feels guilty as hell for all his actions.

So now have I answered all our questions? Please let me know what you think of my reply concern the Hiroshima and the needs of the many.

[Kevinroc]

The needs of the few do out weigh the needs of the many. I will continue to excuse Tony Stark's plans to blow up NYC. I will give you a perfect example in real life to justify it. Do you know anything about WWII. We dropped an atom bomb on Hiroshima. Thousands died there but what did it do? It ended the war right after that. Now I know WWII was a different situation because we were already at war. My point is, Earth didn't know who the Warbound were when they showed up. Again, if the Hulk had not done his telecast everyone would have thought that New York was going to be taken over by an alien race.

By your argument the US shouldn't have bombed Hiroshima to end the war. If they hadn't, then thousands more would have contiued to die and the US and democracy as we know it might not even exist.

Now I will admit, its a tough decision to make when you have to sacrifice lives to save others and I wouldn't want to make it but it doesn't mean the decision is wrong.

That's why I defend Tony Stark's decision. He wasn't thinking out of madness, he was actually thinking by putting the fate of the rest of the world over New York city. I believe that's exactly how the writters wanted to portray that.

For the record, I never flip flopped on my post. I said that the Hulk kills. Everyone says that the Hulk only kills when mind controled. Has the Hulk accidentally killed when on one of his non mind controlled rampages. Its been argued a thousand times already that no where does it say one way or the other. So I just chalk that up to who no one really knows. What I have been focusing on is that the Illuminati aren't bad guys for sending him away. Banner himself feels guilty as hell for all his actions.

So now have I answered all our questions? Please let me know what you think of my reply concern the Hiroshima and the needs of the many.

It's clear you didn't read World War Hulk #4. The Illuminati have done bad things. Reed and Tony were responsible for "Clor", who killed a super hero. Black Bolt's people murdered innocent humans in an attack on Earth that went sour. Dr. Strange turned himself into a monster and almost murdered people.

You're looking at this from the perspective that the Illuminati are instantly heroic and righteous. They can't make mistakes.

That's where you are wrong. That's what Hulk told them. They judged him harshly. So he judged them harshly.

Let's face it, Reed Richards is far from perfect. This is the guy that decided it would be a good idea to brainwash alien shapeshifters into thinking they were cows. And that ended up causing ALL SORTS of problems.

[IamtheRock3]

way I see it

Nobody in comics actully came out and stated Hulk killed people in the comic


But people in the comic stated he HASNT


Take that what you will

[IamtheRock3]

I'm just saying. At what point does it matter if the Hulk kills someone when his mind is tampered with or not. The fact is that he kills people. It's the reason why he can't be considered a hero.

The Hulk is basically a weapon so what does it matter if he kills when his mind is tampered with or not. OK, maybe the first time it happens it can be over looked but it happens all the time.

To make a real life comparison lets look take a look at nuclear weapons. ( Hulk strenght >= nuclear bomb ). The weapons themselves are pretty much innocent. They just don't go around and blow up places on their own. Yet, every nation gets all up and arms about them and try to dispose of them. The same can be said for the Hulk. He is a weapon and people try to control him and when they do people get hurt.

It's like the whole guns don't kill people, people kill people argument. Well, get rid of the guns and then you won't have to worry about people getting shot. Same applies for the Hulk. Get rid of him and you don't have to worry about him killing people. Even Banner himself admitted he would kill himself if he could. Obviously he feels the same way.

Again, anyone can be brainwashed or tampered with to kill someone. But when you have as much power as the Hulk and it happens repeatedly then get rid of him.

Cant the same be said about often mind controled super heroes

I mean should superman be taken out

[IamtheRock3]

I'm just going by how the characters react in the comics. Everyone keeps saying that what the Hulk did is no worst than when Thor, Ironman or any other hero kills someone. Well if you can answer me these question sconvincingly I will be quiet.

If the deaths that the other hero's caused are just as bad as what the Hulk does then why did the comic characters pick the Hulk instead of banishing some other heros? Why is it that none of the characters make the point that other heros have killed before (intended or not, mind wiped or not)? You see, they way the comics are written, every other hero thinks the Hulk is the only problem. Yes there were a few like Namor that took his side.

Again, why is it that all the common people in the comics fear Hulk when he comes walking up and not Thor or Ironman. Well, because the Hulk is dangerous and out of control (even when not mind control).

You see, in the comics, the general population fears the Hulk more than any other hero. There has got to be a reason for that you see. Apparently they don't think the deaths caused by the other heros are as great as the Hulks. Or at least they think they are more excusable. And don't use Sentry as an example because he was created from no where, lol.


Same reason people fear the Xmen

But not other NON mutant heroes, who the public really has no idea if thier mutants or not

It because well

kind of thier thing

[IamtheRock3]

oh and not sure the needs of the many argument works


Cause Hulk so far has showed he more HELP, then harm

out of saving the world a couple of times. When your getting attack, you call up the Hulk, and they will CONTINUE to do so

[Mr Fixit]

Hulk is an easy scape goat because he looks like a monster attaching the idea that he kills people without remorse is a simple image to cast,sometimes people don't want to sympathise with someone who looks like a freak because it means thinking a little more deeply than they can be bothered with.

Hulk is a conveniant target for the illuminati to shift attention and guilt unto,but it's backfired and Hulk is deffently no saint but he no worse than stark or Reed richards.

[dabig2]

I'm just going by how the characters react in the comics. Everyone keeps saying that what the Hulk did is no worst than when Thor, Ironman or any other hero kills someone. Well if you can answer me these question sconvincingly I will be quiet.

If the deaths that the other hero's caused are just as bad as what the Hulk does then why did the comic characters pick the Hulk instead of banishing some other heros? Why is it that none of the characters make the point that other heros have killed before (intended or not, mind wiped or not)? You see, they way the comics are written, every other hero thinks the Hulk is the only problem. Yes there were a few like Namor that took his side.

Good question, that's what we Hulk fans have been wondering since 2006 as well. It's why Pak saw it fit to retcon this whole business towards only when he's animalistic and not in control-akin to mind control or whatnot for guys who can't be physically separated from their inner selfs or who can live past psychological death. If someone capable were writing that comic like Dan Slot, who's a continuity mastermind, he would've brought up so much **** on those guys and others it wouldn't have been funny. Namor "losing" the argument there when he could've pressed and pressed like how all of us Hulk fans have at home was needed for the story. That's all.

Again, why is it that all the common people in the comics fear Hulk when he comes walking up and not Thor or Ironman. Well, because the Hulk is dangerous and out of control (even when not mind control).

You see, in the comics, the general population fears the Hulk more than any other hero. There has got to be a reason for that you see. Apparently they don't think the deaths caused by the other heros are as great as the Hulks. Or at least they think they are more excusable. And don't use Sentry as an example because he was created from no where, lol.

Hulk always asks the same question. So do mutants and the X-men. Does this mean that the X-men are out slaughtering babies in the night? This isn't black and white. They fear him because he's a ton green monster freak with strength up the wahoo who always finds himself involved with the military and police because...he's a ton green monster freak. Look for a couple recent Hulk quotes on this very matter. He made 1 at the beginning of IH 107.

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g248/dabig2/from%20original%20Hulk%20issues/phpYqspoPPM-JimandHulkresized.jpg

[DoctorDoom]

Actually that logic does work. The other guys you mentioned have stable minds. If their minds are tampered with or someone takes them over then you know for sure that somethings up and it probably won't happen again for a very long time.

Sentry
Who cares about him? He's just a character Marvel made out of thin air. Sure, get rid of him.

Thor
Besides the warrior madness, and even then, when has Thor gone around killing people (who didn't desrve it anyway) and had the general public question his intentions.

Ironman
At least his intentions seemed to be good in Civil War even if he could have done it better.

You see, all these HEROES have sane minds. When the Hulk kills someone there is always this big question mark of was it Banner, the Hulk or someone messing with his mind.

The big difference is all the character's you pointed our are regarded as heroes (even when the cause a full scale war like Ironman, by the way the US government started Civil War, Ironman just supported it). The Hulk on the other hand, is regarded more as a monster than a hero.
As for Iron Man....he did kill an ambassador. And last year his armors went berserk due to outside influence. But those incidents were far in between...at least in normal years. Comic years, I dunno...

[Red Orion]

As for Iron Man....he did kill an ambassador. And last year his armors went berserk due to outside influence. But those incidents were far in between...at least in normal years. Comic years, I dunno...

Actually there not "few and far between". He was taken over by Ultron who caused the deaths of hundreds in Mighty Avengers, was taken control of by Yinsen's son who had him kill an entire plane full of people, his armor killed Whiplash when Tony was wearing it, he killed multiple times during the Crossing and killed the ambassador because of Justin Hammer. That's not even counting the amount of deaths resulting from his land mines or the Atlanteans that died because of him or the time he killed Gremlin for no reason.

Iron Man has killed under mind-control or manipulation far more often then the Hulk has.

[IamtheRock3]

Good question, that's what we Hulk fans have been wondering since 2006 as well. It's why Pak saw it fit to retcon this whole business towards only when he's animalistic and not in control-akin to mind control or whatnot for guys who can't be physically separated from their inner selfs or who can live past psychological death. If someone capable were writing that comic like Dan Slot, who's a continuity mastermind, he would've brought up so much **** on those guys and others it wouldn't have been funny. Namor "losing" the argument there when he could've pressed and pressed like how all of us Hulk fans have at home was needed for the story. That's all.



Hulk always asks the same question. So do mutants and the X-men. Does this mean that the X-men are out slaughtering babies in the night? This isn't black and white. They fear him because he's a ton green monster freak with strength up the wahoo who always finds himself involved with the military and police because...he's a ton green monster freak. Look for a couple recent Hulk quotes on this very matter. He made 1 at the beginning of IH 107.

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g248/dabig2/from%20original%20Hulk%20issues/phpYqspoPPM-JimandHulkresized.jpg


walking soft is something we learn in the ghetto. They got that spot on at least :)

[DoctorDoom]

Actually there not "few and far between". He was taken over by Ultron who caused the deaths of hundreds in Mighty Avengers, was taken control of by Yinsen's son who had him kill an entire plane full of people, his armor killed Whiplash when Tony was wearing it, he killed multiple times during the Crossing and killed the ambassador because of Justin Hammer. That's not even counting the amount of deaths resulting from his land mines or the Atlanteans that died because of him or the time he killed Gremlin for no reason.

Iron Man has killed under mind-control or manipulation far more often then the Hulk has.
...touche'.

I had honestly forgotten about those. I was jsut going offhand on memory.

I think you just proved some kind of point.