Cultures and Marvel Gods

[Magneto X]

So Marvel has a number of gods that have been a great way to amp up a story. Sure, the Hulk or X-Men or Iron Man are powerful, but what if they run into the enemies of ancient gods!

Obviously, each pantheon of gods relate to the belief systems of numerous societies throughout history: Greeks, Norse, Egyptian, Incan, etc. And similarly, those societies and their god's have different relationships to us, the readers.

There was no obvious comparative strengths -- who is stronger, Osiris or Odin? -- before Marvel wrote these characters, but liking clearly deliniated strength levels, Marvel made them up. It may be understandable why Herclues and Thor were picked for exposure first: the writers were Eurpoean-descended, possibly descended form Scandinavians and Greeks or friends with folks who were, and had at least heard of the Greek stories, and probably not the Egyptian Osiris or the Mayan Quetzalcoatl.

But once decades rolled by, and the various other Pantheons were created,
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/godhed.htm
and Marvel decided to give the characters strength levels,
how commited was Marvel, especially following World War II, to not replicating white-supremacist notions, or at least not implying it by making the Europeans the strongest?

Are the strength levels even? No. But maybe they are random.
Or is there a pattern?

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/godsasgd.htm
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/neptunep.htm
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/virac1.htm
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/osiristhor.htm
http://marvunapp.com/Appendix/quetza.htm

Basically, with all the other gods Marvel has created and placed a strength level, are there even a few non-European Godheads who are as strong as Odin and Zeus? :confused: Anybody know?

[Jmacq1]

Well, the heads of all the pantheons are "Skyfathers" and while it's implied that Odin is/was the de-facto leader of that group, the power levels of its' various members are not specified, but implied to be of nearly-equal power.

As for the rest...some of the gods of other nations have been extremely formidable enemies of the more "Euro-centric" gods...A Japanese God recently laid waste to Olympia...and Seth was quite the menace to the Asgardians back in the day.

Still, to answer the question (How commited was Marvel, etc...?)

The answer is: Not very. White supremacist attitudes still lingered around the US (the primary market for Marvel Comics) for another two decades or more after World War II, and given that the majority of readership were white males, the characters tended to reflect that so that readers would more readily identify with them.

That's not to say there was (or is) any racist agenda at Marvel. It's simply the unfortunate truth of how things were, and to an extent, still are (at least in the comic-biz).

[Soundrave]

The Amatsu-Kami (Gods of Japan) were profiled in the first Update Handbook of this year, but since it was a group entry the individual pantheon members didn't get strength levels assigned.

The second (or third?) Update Handbook had a profile on the Panther God of the Heliopolitan Gods (of Egypt) ... but I can't recall his power rankings offhand.

The third Update Handbook also had a profile on the Annunaki (Gods of Mesopotamia), but like the Japanese Gods profile from the first Update it was a group profile so no individual strength levels were revealed.

The Marvel Zombies Handbook that just came out last week had a profile on Damballah of the Vodu Pantheon (Gods of Africa) ... but again I can't recall the strength stats given and don't have the book on hand at the moment. Pluto of the Olympian Gods (Greece) and Seth of the Heliopolitan Gods (Egypt) also received profiles in this book.

[Capt USA]

some of the gods strength levels could be indicative of their followers depiction of their strength level.

But usually when one god fights another god(non-thor) the pantheons seem to be relatively even strength.

[Magneto X]

I don't think the Norse, Greeks, Romans, Mayans, or Egyptians thought of their gods in terms of tonnage - that seems all Marvel. If anything, I'd bet the Mayans, Egyptians and Incans would have cosmic feats like dragging stars and planets around, while the Greeks were portrayed as more human-like.

And isn't it in black in white (so to speak)? Isn't it listed outright? For instance, Thor and Hercules both lift over 100 tons. Odin and Zeus are more powerful.

In addition it does seem Odin is the defacto leader. And I remember a book where all the other Skyfathers were wiped out except Odin and Zeus who dodged (they're faster too)? I wonder if Zeus is defacto second in command.

Isn't, according to Marvel, Osiris the most powerful of his pantheon. And he lifts 80 tons, less than the kids of the other Skyfathers. The Incan and Mayan head gods are Class 60. Odin should punk them by those stats.

The Japanese thing is interesting, but sounds little, and late.

It does seem rather white-supremacist.

I mean, who worships Norse Gods anymore anyway? Why would they be more powerful now.

And Odin's both strongest, fastest, in charge (smartest? most respected?), and a theat to folks like Galactus,
but the Egyptian, Incan and Mayan godheads can be taken down by She-Hulk?

:confused:

[Baltho08]

The Egyptian god Set took all of the Avengers including Thor, Atlantean people, and the X-men plus maybe some Eternals to defeat, no? That's pretty powerful, right?
Peace.

[StoneGold]

It does seem rather white-supremacist.


Unlikely, since the whole thing was set up by a couple of Jews. Them and Roy Thomas anyways, and I have no idea about him. What it really comes down to is Stan and Jack made Thor first, Thor's name was on the cover, so Thor was always going to come out ahead in the end. Why a couple of Jews (technically three, if you count Larry Lieber, which no one ever, ever does) picked a Teutonic thunder god as their superhero is another good question. Although if you are going to go by Stan's telling, he wanted something slightly more obscure than the Greco-Roman pantheon.


But apart from his origins, it really just comes down to Thor's name is on the title.

[Camron Amaya]

Uhh Stan Lee is Jewish...I really doubt he's a Norseman or that he's down with white supremacy lmao

Maybe cuz Thor and Hercules were the two most obvious choices from mythology. But I guess it's just can't be that simple, there must be a hidden agenda!

[StoneGold]

The Egyptian god Set took all of the Avengers including Thor, Atlantean people, and the X-men plus maybe some Eternals to defeat, no? That's pretty powerful, right?
Peace.

Yeah, but he's also evil. And while Set's a douchebag in the original mythology, you could interpret that as "gods of the dark people are evil, and need to be beaten up by white people." Granted, it happens with Ares and Loki as well. Course, then there was the time Thor beat up Shiva, but we covered that in another thread.

[StoneGold]

Maybe cuz Thor and Hercules were the two most obvious choices from mythology. But I guess it's just can't be that simple, there must be a hidden agenda!

Hercules, yes. At the time, Norse mythology was a bit more obscure. Truth is, outside of comic geeks, it still is. Go outside, ask a person who Baldur is. Then ask them who Apollo is. See what kind of responses you get.


And yeah, they don't exactly match up pantheon-wise, but they both kind of share father's favorite non-asskicking son stature, more or less, kinda sorta.

[Magneto X]

The Egyptian god Set took all of the Avengers including Thor, Atlantean people, and the X-men plus maybe some Eternals to defeat, no? That's pretty powerful, right?

That is impressive indeed. Thanks.

But, yeah, since he's a villain, his glory is doomed. Not only did he not replace Odin in the long run, or even Zeus in terms of second-greatest panel exposure, we don't see him much at all since then, do we? A burst of power is nice. Longstanding power with showings and respect is better.

Maybe cuz Thor and Hercules were the two most obvious choices from mythology. But I guess it's just can't be that simple, there must be a hidden agenda!

It is a white privilege to assume everything done in popular culture that reflects your culture is "the obvious choice" or "the normal thing to do" or "just logical." It isn't obvious, normal or logical. It is skewed, preferenced, and biased.

Norse mythology is incredibly obscure. Less now only because of the comics we're talking about. Ra and Shiva are far better known than Balder, Heimdall and Sif. And, even if not, if a publishing company has had sixty years to perfect something, then it has had sixty years to notice what you've done, accidentally or not --- especially since Marvel has been "committed to diversity" since the 1960s. "Committed" includes having to look and analyze what you're doing, doesn't it?

Unlikely, since the whole thing was set up by a couple of Jews.

While almost all the early writers were Jewish, they almost never made their characters anything other than white anglo saxon Americans with Christian beliefs. There is no "Jewish writers get a free pass to write out other histories, cultures, nations, religions and colors out of the comic universe" law or law of nature is there? Nobody says they did it intentionally, just that somebody should have noticed in the last, say, several decades, and re-balanced it.

[seekquaze]

I don't think the whole relationship between the different gods was ever thought out at first. It was made up as they went along. The Norse and Greek were thought of first because they are the most common that people are familiar with. That and since they had few active worshipers compared to some other religions you could use them without infringing on the Comic Code. Finally, they were probable the closets things Stan Lee and other writers could relate too.

As to the respective gods. All gods have super-strength and are immortal to a degree, but that is generally not what you have to worry about when confronting them. It is true that some like Ares or Hercules rely primarily on it. Others like the rely heavily on their vast mystical powers. Some such as the skyfathers can even augment their strength to levels rivaling if not surpassing Hercules. A god may not be able to match you physically, but if they can turn themselves invisible, into another shape, or send a flood against you you are in trouble.

A loose hierarchy appears to be as follows:
Skyfathers are generally the most powerful overall with abilities on par with if not far surpassing others of their pantheon. Some are ruled by one like the Greeks and Aesir while others have more than one.

Death gods like Hel, Seth, and the Japanese villain are usually among the most powerful and can kill even other gods.

After these the most well-known gods in a pantheon are usually the most powerful though to varying degrees. Neptune is more powerful than say Hercules not due to physical strength, but for his powers. These gods usually have powers related to their field and that is what makes them dangerous since they have had thousands of years to perfect themselves in that one area.

You then have your generic gods that form the masses. The Aesir at least were like this and the Zeus ruled over his family along with a number of mythological creatures and lesser immortals. I don't know to what extent the other pantheons are populated though I would assume if they do not have masses of lesser deities they would rule over the mythological creatures from their respective religions.

A god's power is fairly static. It does not increase or decrease on the number of worshipers. They can augment it by tapping outside power sources such as artifacts or absorbing the power of another god which Seth has done on occasion and the leader of the dark gods did.

That about sums up everything I know about them.

[Camron Amaya]

Hercules, yes. At the time, Norse mythology was a bit more obscure. Truth is, outside of comic geeks, it still is. Go outside, ask a person who Baldur is. Then ask them who Apollo is. See what kind of responses you get.


And yeah, they don't exactly match up pantheon-wise, but they both kind of share father's favorite non-asskicking son stature, more or less, kinda sorta.

You're completly wrong. I don't know one single person who doesn't know at least vagualy what Thor is. They all know it's something mythological. And I only have ONE friend in real life who reads comics. And you're not being fair at all. For Greek you ask me to say Apollo which is well known name but for Norse you ask me to say Baldur. I don't consider myself a geek of anything, I've never been called a geek based on my looks or personality. Ever. Its a suprise to most people that I read comics or play computer games. To be honest I don't even LIKE comic nerds, they annoy me. I'm think of myself as just a normal person who's a fan. But if knowing alot about comics counts as being a geek then I guess I am one. But I always knew mythology. And I knew Thor and vikings before I ever read a Thor comic.

[Camron Amaya]

.



It is a white privilege to assume everything done in popular culture that reflects your culture is "the obvious choice" or "the normal thing to do" or "just logical." It isn't obvious, normal or logical. It is skewed, preferenced, and biased.

.


Nice attempt except I'm not white and both Thor or Hercules don't represent my culture in the slightest. Greek and Norse is simply some of the most widely known mythology In Europe and North America when it comes to names of heroesand gods. Thor, Herculs, Apollo, Zeus, Odin etc. If you think it's not then you're delusional. EDIT: Egyptian is known too but in comic terms the names Thor and Hercules by far more known and usefull as heroes.

[Magneto X]

Norse is known only because of decades of Thor comics. This seeps into culture beyond comic readers. It is another privilege.

Thor or Hercules don't represent my culture in the slightest.

Not in the slightest. Not the slightest. Well, maybe not you then, but for white readers and writers . . . they do have some people in their family history with: straight hair, right? Blue eyes, right? Blond hair, right?

Not me: Kinky. Brown. Black.

Greek and Norse is simply some of the most widely known mythology In Europe ....

Well, with that ending caveat "in Europe", I suppose you've made your point.

That is, if that counts as a point in a thread questioning bias in favor of European heritage.
Don't worry. I'm sure it's some kind of a point.

Anyway, I never said people couldn't like Norse gods. Just that it isn't obvious that the gods of the palests civilications would rule over the gods of darker-skinned civilizations.

[Camron Amaya]

Norse is known only because of decades of Thor comics. This seeps into culture beyond comic readers. It is another privilege.



Not in the slightest. Not the slightest. Well, maybe not you then, but for white readers and writers . . . they do have some people in their family history with: straight hair, right? Blue eyes, right? Blond hair, right?

Not me: Kinky. Brown. Black.



Well, with that ending caveat "in Europe", I suppose you've made your point.

That is, if that counts as a point in a thread questioning bias in favor of European heritage.
Don't worry. I'm sure it's some kind of a point.


When you respond to me don't respond to half a sentence and ignore the rest cuz it's easier. I siad in Europe and North America cuz by far that's the majority of people reading American comics too. Reading Spiderman and Superman and etc. And don't talk to me like I'm retarted. Only pathetic people look for something that isn't there all the damn time. They see racism in every single thing cuz they want to. I've spent alot of time arguing with racist dumbasses and making them look like idiots, but the opposite is just as annoying.

I just asked a hispanic person's opinion who said he thinks Egyptian is just as known as Norse if not more, but Thor and Hercules are a far more logical choice for heroes and warriors to start out with. Cuz they're known and because of their nature and characters. In the first issues of Thor the other characters weren't even focused on, just Thor as a hero. Thor and Herucles are COOL, and probly easy to adopt to comics too at the time. Is that too hard to belive? Also it's got a huge amount of material to draw from. Especialy Greek. Or is the sole reason for picking them first a White supremist conspiracy put together by blonde and red haired evil Jewish writers out to prove Aryans are superior to all others?

And the Egyptian Gods were shown to be pretty powefull too they screwed with the Norse pantheon plenty. Odin was one of the first thye ontroduced with probly the most history behind him cuz of Thor, and Thor is one of the most powerful characters so it's no suprise his father is shown to be one of the most powerful skyfathers.

[Magneto X]

Or is the sole reason for picking them first a White supremist conspiracy put together by blonde and red haired evil Jewish writers out to prove Aryans are superior to all others?

Response: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man_argument

An example of a straw man fallacy:

Person A: I don't think children should run into the busy streets.
Person B: I think that it would be foolish to lock children up all day.

By insinuating that Person A's argument is far more draconian than it is, Person B has side-stepped the issue. Here the "straw man" that person B has set up is the premise that "The only way to stop children running into the busy streets is to keep them inside all day".

And, in order to see unintended bias and a need to rebalance the characters, it is only required that we see the imbalance, and not required that we believe that "the sole reason for picking them first a White supremist conspiracy put together by blonde and red haired evil Jewish writers out to prove Aryans are superior to all others."

That's straw man tactics.


Anyway, sorry for anything before that sounded insulting.

Only pathetic people look for something that isn't there all the damn time. They see racism in every single thing cuz they want to.

Yikes. Too late, I guess.

Anyway, that's the crux of the difference isn't it.

The question is (assuming for the sake of responding that there is no in between): Is it more likely that people fail to see inequality because of their shelterdness, ignorance, privilege, or because it is uncomfortable, or is it more likely that people too often see inequality that does not exist at all because they like to be angry.

But the problem is, even if you agreed it was the latter (something I don't think either history or human nature bares out to be true most of the time), even then, people don't need to be angry or delusional to think a universe dominated by the gods of just the European cultures is a bit biased in favor of white writers and readers. The constructive solution is either:
1) refute that Greek and Norse gods have special status in the Marvel Universe; or
2) tell black readers, or at least this black reader, that he is confused, and Greek and Norse gods are, in fact, "universal"; or
3) start writing the gods of other cultures to have kind of the power, respect and exposure that Odin has.

I pick 3. :)

[K Von Doom]

The Egyptian god Set took all of the Avengers including Thor, Atlantean people, and the X-men plus maybe some Eternals to defeat, no? That's pretty powerful, right?
Peace.

Wasn't that Set the Elder God?

[Camron Amaya]

Sorry for anything that sounded insulting.



Oops. Too late.

Anyway, that's the crux of the difference isn't it.

The question is (assuming for the sake of responding that there is no in between): Is it more likely that people fail to see inequality because of their shelterdness, ignorance, privilege, or because it is uncomfortable, or is it more likely that people too often see inequality that does not exist at all because they like to be angry.

But the problem is, even if you agreed it was the latter (something I don't think either history or human nature bares out to be true most of the time), even then, people don't need to be angry or delusional to think a universe dominated by the gods of just the European cultures is a bit biased in favor of white writers and readers. The constructive solution is either:
1) refute that Greek and Norse gods have special status in the Marvel Universe; or
2) tell black readers, or at least this black reader, that he is confused, and Greek and Norse gods are, in fact, "universal"; or
3) start writing the gods of other cultures to have kind of the power, respect and exposure that Odin has.

I pick 3. :)



So you're basicly mad that some Gods from Black/Indian/Native American cultures aren't shown as powerful. The Russian gods weren't shown as powerful either and aren't as famous. Is that racism too? And every single pantheon should be equal in power? Well that's fun, it really is. Baiscly then they're all the same thing with different names. How interesting and entertaining. ONE Japanese God laid waste to most of Olympus and it was done well. So obviosly different beings have different amounts of power, that's how it should be. If one of those beings doesn't happen to be Black, so what? African mythology isn't exactly known, with the exception of Egyptian. As for Mayan and Aztec, they're cool, but 90% of tte people here wouldn't even be able to pronounce the names.

The Egyptian ones were shown to be just as powerful too and came pretty soon after the Norse sarted developing. In the other thread it talks about whole galaxies being in peril when Seth and Odin fought. The other skyfathers (japanese, indian, greek and I think aztec) also took the Odinpower away from Thor once.

I'm not dissagreeing that the other pantheons should be used more and developed more. I love mythology, all of it. But calling it racist that Odin is more known or used is dumb when he's the father of one of the most powerfull and known heroes in Marvel.

[Magneto X]

So you're basicly mad that some Gods from Black/Indian/Native American cultures aren't shown as powerful. The Russian gods weren't shown as powerful either and aren't as famous. Is that racism too?

You may notice that you are actually the one to bandy about the word "racism". Hopefully, unlike that wild Aryan conspiracy straw-man argument above, you are able to admit cultural imbalances beyond the most extremes -- but it's not all innocense versus KKK, you know. Sometimes unintended results still deserve to be corrected, and that doesn't require screaming "bigot" at some alleged cause of that imbalance. What I've said is that the constructive response for Marvel's editors is to notice this cultural bias/skew/imbalance, whether intended or not, and address it by giving a few other cultures gods equal time. Some may prefer to decide it is meaningless, or too hard or disruptive to address. I think the choice to show certain gods as powerful and respected can be, and should be, better balanced. That either does or does not sound reasonable to you. Rephrasing the position to use words like "conspiracy" and "Aryan" may be a way of trying to find a way to disagree. I simply think the choice to show certain gods as powerful and respected can be, and should be, better balanced.


I'm not dissagreeing that the other pantheons should be used more and developed more. I love mythology, all of it. But calling it racist ...

Then we agree. Because I have yet to type "Marvel is racist", though it is ascribed to me, and my point is simply that the other pantheons should be used and developed more.

[Soundrave]

Here's a few of the official stats from other pantheons:

Demogorge (a.k.a. Ammon Ra of the Egyptian Gods)
Intelligence: 3
Strength: 7
Speed: 3
Durability: 7
Energy Projection: 5
Fighting Skills: 4


Panther God (a.k.a. Bast of the Egyptian Gods)
Intelligence: 4
Strength: 6
Speed: 3 (7 with teleportation)
Durability: 7
Energy Projection: 6
Fighting Skills: 6


Damballah (of the Vodu Gods)
Intelligence: 2
Strength: 4
Speed: 3
Durability: 4
Energy Projection: 6
Fighting Skills: 4


Pluto (of the Greek/Olympian Gods)
Intelligence: 6
Strength: 5
Speed: 3 (7 with teleportation)
Durability: 7
Energy Projection: 6
Fighting Skills: 6


Seth (of the Egyptian Gods)
Intelligence: 6
Strength: 7
Speed: 3 (7 with teleportation)
Durability: 7
Energy Projection: 5
Fighting Skills: 6

Pazuzu (of the Mesopotamian Gods)
Intelligence: 2
Strength: 5
Speed: 3
Durability: 5
Energy Projection: 5
Fighting Skills: 4

compare those with . . .

Satan (of Judeo-Christian mythology)
Intelligence: 4 (7 as Hell-Lord)
Strength: 4 (7 as Hell-Lord)
Speed: 3 (7 as Hell-Lord)
Durability: 3 (7 as Hell-Lord)
Energy Projection: 3 (7 as Hell-Lord)
Fighting Skills: 2

Kind of looks like Damballah and Pazuzu got a little short-changed in the power ratings department . . .

[seekquaze]

Wasn't that Set the Elder God?


Yes, the god Set was the snake-headed elder god. However, the Egyptian god of evil Seth pretended to be Seth in order to usurp the former's worship. Also, in real mythology the Egyptian gods commonly have several names. Seth and Set both refer to the same deity.

[seekquaze]

Oh, something else.

While I can understand the desire to have other pantheons shown in the MU to be as powerful as the Asgardian or Greek ones I do not think there it should be done merely for political correctiness nor do I think Odin has been shown to be more powerful. The name of the book is "Thor" so it makes sense that the Asgardians would be so cased the most. The reason Thor was selected I think was he was easiest to relate to and find information on and since he was not part of a major religion or a minority character it would not impede the Comics Code.

Other pantheons have been shown to be as powerful as the Asgardians or Greek. As it has been pointed out Seth has nearly destroyed them several times. A Japanese god nearly destroyed the Olympians after virtually wiping out its own. The Celtic gods have been shown. So, I think Marvel has shown non-Norse gods in a positive light. Before you say that the Norse gods won two things:

1. They were fighting the evil gods of the respective pantheons something everyone seems to have at least one of.

2. Both the Asgardians and Olympians needed the aid of other pantheons sometimes to win.

[Magneto X]

merely for political correctiness

One person's politcal correctness is another person's getting sick of being portrayed as weaker, lazier, less honest, or dumber than they really are. Call it what you will. PC is a silly term anyway. It's PC to not burn a flag, for instance, but it's the conservatives who are offended then. That's not called PC though. It's called patriotism. It's not called PC when folks are asked to not show boobies on TV during the day. It's called family values. Was it PC to not show the flag draped coffins coming from Iraq? I think the term PC is meaningless, except as a tool of the right to exagerate a special list of social gripes.

The name of the book is "Thor" so it makes sense that the Asgardians would be so cased the most.

Which requires us to ask why Thor and the Norse were chosen.

The reason Thor was selected I think was he was easiest to relate to

I think you'd find the actual old Norse stories very hard to relate too.
It's Marvel's writings (and initially putting him into an American human)
that made it more relatable.

and find information on

Info is available on many mythologies.

and since he was not part of a major religion

Now that is probably a plus for the Norse and a minus for Shiva.

But, unless someone is seriously suggesting using Mohammad, Jesus, King David, Buddha, or the Catholic saints, it's not really a factor for most of the other pantheons.

(Although I somehow think DC has added an angel in the Justice League).

or a minority character it would not impede the Comics Code.

That is confusing. And disturbing. And confusing.

If that's true it takes some onus off of Marvel (though they could fight it),
and more on the folks behind the code.

Hard to believe the code was against depictions of Egyptian and Incan gods.

Other pantheons have been shown to be as powerful as the Asgardians or Greek.

Great. Then they should keep doing it consistently.

[seekquaze]

One person's politcal correctness is another person's getting sick of being portrayed as weaker, lazier, less honest, or dumber than they really are. Call it what you will. PC is a silly term anyway. It's PC to not burn a flag, for instance, but it's the conservatives who are offended then. That's not called PC though. It's called patriotism. It's not called PC when folks are asked to not show boobies on TV during the day. It's called family values. Was it PC to not show the flag draped coffins coming from Iraq? I think the term PC is meaningless, except as a tool of the right to exagerate a special list of social gripes. [/B]

I was merely making a point. Like how the old Superfriends cartoon included a bunch of minority characters in a way that looked like it was just to have them. Or movies where the majority of the cast is all of one race whether it be black, white, Asian, but you throw one of another in there just for the sake of having a "minority" in there because if you do not someone will accuse you of being racist or not politically correct, etc.

As I stated earlier the book is called Thor so it would make sense you would see the Asgardians the most.



Which requires us to ask why Thor and the Norse were chosen.

I think you'd find the actual old Norse stories very hard to relate too.
It's Marvel's writings (and initially putting him into an American human)
that made it more relatable. [/B]

I have read them and I actually do not find it difficult to understand the characters. I have read some stories from other cultures with mixed results on that front.

As to why was Thor chosen rather than the Monkey King, Gilgamesh, or some other hero from mythology. I would suppose it would be because Thor was in some ways the easiest to adapt. For one thing he was a hero in Norse mythology who controlled the weather and hit things with a hammer. That give a basic premise that is easy to work with. Two, I don't have any hard facts, but from what I have been told back in the sixties the majority of comic readers were white and they were more likely to buy a book about a white character rather than a black one. And no I am not saying that the people at Marvel were racists. I am simply acknowledging the cultures at the time.

Tell me if it was a god of ancient Africa who was picked instead, but assuming it had the same portrayals of other pantheons as the Thor title has would you still have issues with it?

Also, to the claim that one of the reasons was probable due to Thor being part of a non-major religion. Marvel back in the seventies involved several Hindu deities against the Celestials and recieved complaints about it. The Comics Code forbid anything that might be considered to be offensive to a religious group or racial group. Since race was still an issue in the sixities could not the use of a Native American character perhaps be considered in breach of this?

Maybe what it comes down to is simply Stan Lee had heard the name somewhere in book he read once and after looking up on it once and checked on it so he picked Thor.

As to the other pantheons. Once again the book was/is called "Thor." Not "__" so of course it would focus on the Aesir. Most of Thor's adventures either take place in deep space against alien entities, on Earth fighting mortals, or in the nine worlds of Norse mythology where he would encounter creatures from *gasp* Norse mythology.

The Greeks were near by in Greece and are well-known to the general populace. So it makes sense they would be shown.

In the comics world the neighboring pantheons of the Celts and Egyptians had isolated themselves from the outside world for centuries. Even the Aesir and Greeks had more or less done that.

The times other pantheons have appeared they have not been portrayed as weaker or dumber. Seth has held his own against Odin multiple times. A Japanese god has currently killed Zeus.

Tell me. If the book was titled "Monkey King" would you expect him to fight primarily villains from Chinese religion? What about if he encountered the Asgard? Would you expect him or Loki to win? Would it be offensive if he did? What if other pantheons were only showed a few times in the span of decades? Would there be a problem with that? What if The Jade Emperor had a galaxy-shattering battle with say...Hades, but Odin or Zeus were never shown to be shattering galaxies. Would that been portraying those two as dumber and weaker? If you accuse the Thor book of being biased assuming that another book followed a similar course, just with a character from another mythology isn't that biased as well?

[seekquaze]

As to your original question about strength. As I stated in an earlier post it doesn't matter that much. Odin as listed in the handbooks can only lift 75 tons. Zeus 90. They are powerful because of the mystical energies they wield. The head of any pantheon can usually wield mystical energies for any number of effects INCLUDING strength augmentation. IIRC, the Russian god Perun was stated to pretty much be Thor's equal in strength.

As to other gods not having the kind of exposure the Asgardians have had. Again two things:

1. The book is called "Thor."

2. In the marvel universe at least the some of the other pantheons have isolated themselves in their own home dimension and have little interest in things beyond it unless it directly relates to them.

[Daouda]

Magneto X Great thread topic!
I'm not dissagreeing that the other pantheons should be used more and developed more.
You're not acting like it.
But calling it racist that Odin is more known or used is dumb when he's the father of one of the most powerfull and known heroes in Marvel.

Camron Amaya Your statement doesn't answer the question. Why is Thor "one of the most powerfull and known heroes in Marvel."?

Why choose a Norse god and put him in the United States?


The question is (assuming for the sake of responding that there is no in between): Is it more likely that people fail to see inequality because of their shelterdness, ignorance, privilege, or because it is uncomfortable, or is it more likely that people too often see inequality that does not exist at all because they like to be angry.

But the problem is, even if you agreed it was the latter (something I don't think either history or human nature bares out to be true most of the time), even then, people don't need to be angry or delusional to think a universe dominated by the gods of just the European cultures is a bit biased in favor of white writers and readers. The constructive solution is either:
1) refute that Greek and Norse gods have special status in the Marvel Universe; or
2) tell black readers, or at least this black reader, that he is confused, and Greek and Norse gods are, in fact, "universal"; or
3) start writing the gods of other cultures to have kind of the power, respect and exposure that Odin has.

I pick 3. :)


QFT Magneto X Very Well said!:evilsmile

As has been shown with Black Panther, positive things will come and the status quo in the fictional world known as the Marvel Universe can change for the better.:)

I'm still waiting for Jesus to show up.:D

seekquaze The Monkey King besting all is only commonsense.

KamehamehaAA!

Excelsior!

Daoud

[Camron Amaya]

Camron Amaya Your statement doesn't answer the question. Why is Thor "one of the most powerfull and known heroes in Marvel."?

Why choose a Norse god and put him in the United States?






Ok asking why he's in the US is pretty dumb, you know why, and it requieres no explanation. Don't even act like you don't. Would it make any more sense if it was an Indian or Russian or African God in the United States?

As for why is Thor, a Norse God one of the most powerful. Hercules and Thor both are very logical choices when glancing through mythology. Both known for strength and for being warriors. Especialy Thor who had the cool hammer. Do you honestly belive Stan Lee picked him for racial reasons when he said "I thought it would be cool to have someone even more powerful then the hulk, but how do you make someone stronger then the strongest man? Make him a God"? Or maybe he just simply liked him? Is it really that hard to belive someone can just pick one thing over another without it having to do anything with race? Once again if it was racial why in the world would a Jew pick a Norse God to write about? A GERMANIC GOD. In the 60's not that long after World War II ended in the 40's. Cmon.

I honestly think you guys are looking into it way too hard. Asking why Thor and Hercules. WELL WHY NOT THOR AND HERCULES? It's as good a pick as any, and most likely the easiset to research about back then in America, besdies maybe Egyptian, which doesn't have as much potential for superhero Superman types. If it was some other God taking all the spotlight, someone else would be saying well why not Thor and etc.

[DaeJi]

I think the reason Greek and Norse gods are depicted more are twofold. One is that they are the best known mythologies in the western world, where these stories were created and tailored to (fun fact, most of the days of the week are named for Norse gods, including Thursday (THOR-day)). Another is that out of the well known western mythologies they are the easiest to pull heroes from; hero itself is a Greek word and idea, and the Norse gods would often battle monsters and such and adventure with mortals.

I think Stan Lee went with Thor when creating a hero more powerful than the Hulk (Stan has been quoted as saying he wanted to make someone stronger than the Hulk, but couldn't think of a way to make a man stronger than the Hulk till it hit him, "make in a god.") is because, well, first off he wanted a god, and it seemed he wanted a god who would actually fight for mankind. The Greek gods aren't really the first choice when it comes to stuff like this. Not only are they vain and full of themselves in the myths, they're also kinda wimpy (in the Iliad Ares went crying off the battlefield like a little bitch when he got hit once). And Thor is the best known of the Norse gods because he would come down and fight. So... Thor.

[K Von Doom]

I honestly think you guys are looking into it way too hard. Asking why Thor and Hercules. WELL WHY NOT THOR AND HERCULES? It's as good a pick as any, and most likely the easiset to research about back then in America, besdies maybe Egyptian, which doesn't have as much potential for superhero Superman types. If it was some other God taking all the spotlight, someone else would be saying well why not Thor and etc.

This post ends the thread.

We should find something else to complain about now :p

[Magneto_X]

So Marvel has a number of gods that have been a great way to amp up a story. Sure, the Hulk or X-Men or Iron Man are powerful, but what if they run into the enemies of ancient gods!

Obviously, each pantheon of gods relate to the belief systems of numerous societies throughout history: Greeks, Norse, Egyptian, Incan, etc. And similarly, those societies and their god's have different relationships to us, the readers.

There was no obvious comparative strengths -- who is stronger, Osiris or Odin? -- before Marvel wrote these characters, but liking clearly deliniated strength levels, Marvel made them up. It may be understandable why Herclues and Thor were picked for exposure first: the writers were Eurpoean-descended, possibly descended form Scandinavians and Greeks or friends with folks who were, and had at least heard of the Greek stories, and probably not the Egyptian Osiris or the Mayan Quetzalcoatl.

But once decades rolled by, and the various other Pantheons were created,
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/godhed.htm
and Marvel decided to give the characters strength levels,
how commited was Marvel, especially following World War II, to not replicating white-supremacist notions, or at least not implying it by making the Europeans the strongest?

Are the strength levels even? No. But maybe they are random.
Or is there a pattern?

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/godsasgd.htm
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/neptunep.htm
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/virac1.htm
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/osiristhor.htm
http://marvunapp.com/Appendix/quetza.htm

Basically, with all the other gods Marvel has created and placed a strength level, are there even a few non-European Godheads who are as strong as Odin and Zeus? :confused: Anybody know?

Can you change your name, please?

[DaeJi]

Can you change your name, please?

I think you win.

[Magneto_X]

I think you win.

Being a veteran poster does have it's perks.

[CaptainCanada]

For the audience Lee and Kirby were writing for, the Greek and Norse pantheons would be by far the most well-known; Hercules, in particular, but also Norse names like Thor, Zeus, and Loki. Outside of them, and maybe some of the Egyptians (everyone knows Anubis by appearance, if not necessarily by name), pop culture knows almost nothing about them. If this was a racial thing, surely the old Celtic Gods would get some spotlight, but they're even more obscure.

[Camron Amaya]

Yea why didn't Stan pick Moses :rolleyes:

[StoneGold]

You're completly wrong. I don't know one single person who doesn't know at least vagualy what Thor is. They all know it's something mythological. And I only have ONE friend in real life who reads comics. And you're not being fair at all. For Greek you ask me to say Apollo which is well known name but for Norse you ask me to say Baldur. I don't consider myself a geek of anything, I've never been called a geek based on my looks or personality. Ever. Its a suprise to most people that I read comics or play computer games. To be honest I don't even LIKE comic nerds, they annoy me. I'm think of myself as just a normal person who's a fan. But if knowing alot about comics counts as being a geek then I guess I am one. But I always knew mythology. And I knew Thor and vikings before I ever read a Thor comic.

I swear I made a reply to this earlier, but I guess not. You want to know how I'm not completely wrong? Name an Aesir outside of Thor, Odin or Baldur. And no, the Warriors Three don't count, they're an invention of Stan and Jack's. And Loki is a Frost Giant. And yes, I know you can, but the odds of someone remembering (or knowing in the first place) Freya or Tyr or Hod is pretty slim compared to Diana or Apollo or Mercury. Baldur occupies more or less the same position in his pantheon as Apollo. Actually, Frey fits a little better, but I'm guessing even few people know him.


Or if you really want an empirical method, go into the IMDB and do a title search on Thor and Hercules. Hercules has had over 80 titles with his name in the them. Thor has exactly 10. And one is the cartoon that used the Jack Kirby artwork from 1966, and the other is the movie scheduled for 2009 from Marvel Pictures. So exactly eight non-Marvel titles. You want to tell me which character isn't relatively obscure?

[niall mc cann]

I don't see why they should write stories that show other pantheons as being of equal or greater power to the Asgardians. I'm not following this. The prevailing culture at the time clearly influenced Stan and Jack in their choice of pantheon, and since they picked the one they picked and that's the pantheon that's had most exposure over the years, that's the one that's most powerful.

I mean, they bear no real relation to my own heritage, and if there was a Tuatha de Danan comic i'd pick it up in a heartbeat (Marvel UK actually made an attempt at one yeeeears ago, sort of), and frankly, I dare anyone to name a pantheon of gods as badly treated as the Celtic ones (reimagined as half-animal feral people living wild on a scottish island? Kind of nasty...).

The truth is, I can just seperate myself from those kind of depictions. I don't feel that every time Odin is portrayed as more powerful than Nuada (even though Lugh claimed chieftainship of the Celtic gods from Nuada when he declared himself Ildanach, but anyhoo in Marvel, it seems Nuada is Skyfather...) that means i'm being portrayed as "weaker, lazier, less honest, or dumber" than I really am.

And all told, i'd rather wait until somebody had a real story to tell with the Celts, rather than have them shoe-horned into some story designed to alter some power-rating... If my sense of self-worth is affected by power-ratings, it's time for me to re-evaluate my life.

[Baltho08]

For other Pantheons, read Thor: Blood Oath. I think it came out in 2005, and it features the Norse, Japanese, Greek, Celtic and Egyptian gods, that I remember. There might be more. None of the gods were portrayed as weak.
Peace.

[Jmacq1]

Why is Thor "one of the most powerfull and known heroes in Marvel."?

Well...that's an easy answer. He's been a flagship or near-flagship character for the company for 45 years, with hundreds, if not thousands of stories featuring him, including several hundred issues of his own title in multiple volumes.

Implying that Marvel has some obligation to introduce new characters or portray them in an equal light to their long-established lead characters is patently absurd. One may not like the answer that the majority of the comic-book buying audience are white males, and thus that is the audience that is catered to, but one doesn't have to like business realities. The comic market has been shrinking as-is, and it's easy to have high-minded ideals when you don't have to deal with the financial consequences of those decisions.

The fact is, titles starring obscure gods with little established history in the Marvel Universe are far more likely to fail than succeed. Not because Marvel has an agenda (or even necessarily is failing to carry out a different stated goal), but because there's little to no evidence that the audience for such titles are there. New characters of all shapes and sizes have proven difficult to successfully implement, particularly as "flagship" titles (which the OP implies would be necessary for "equality"). Regardless of their stated position on diversity, Marvel is still a business that exists to make money.

As I said, one doesn't have to like the way the business works. But idealistic motives are quickly quashed by economic realities. Marvel could quickly run themselves into the ground trying to publish a bunch of poor-selling titles.

The Greeks and the Norse are perceived as more powerful because they have far more appearances and opportunities to show off their power, and because they are more popular characters. And because by most indications the majority of the readership has shown little interest in seeing the other pantheons more fully developed. If there were a huge clamor for Indian or Mayan or other pantheons to be further developed...rest assured Marvel would do it.

But there isn't.

[Magneto X]

I don't see why they should write stories that show other pantheons as being of equal or greater power to the Asgardians. I'm not following this. The prevailing culture at the time ...

That seems to answer itself. It's no longer that time or that culture. It's a multicultural world. Old vestiages of implied white superiority -- even though unintentional and common for a previous time period -- should be phased out.

The U.S. majority and prevailing culture (as demonstrated by Prohibition among other acts) used to be Protestants (mostly from Northern Europe) who hated the more newly-arrived Catholics (mostly from Ireland, Italy and Southern Europe) who were, in the "prevailing culture" of the early 20th Century considered shiftless, violent, lazy, superstituous, fornicating drunks. It's a good thing such stereotypes have been phased out, instead of replicated in literature and popular culture like some kind of sacred cow we can never change. Now the vast majority of the U.S. Supreme Court is Catholic, proving the prevailing culture has changed. There's nothing necessarilly upsetting about changing to reflect the whole of society instead of the "prevailing culture" -- especially the prevailing culture of a time period that's now more than a half-century into our past.


Implying that Marvel has some obligation to introduce new characters or portray them in an equal light to their long-established lead characters is patently absurd. One may not like the answer that the majority of the comic-book buying audience are white males, and thus that is the audience that is catered to, but one doesn't have to like business realities.

It might not be the correct business decision, but it certainly isn't "patently absurd." Was it patently absurd to create Wakanda? It was in response to questions like this thread. And Marvel answered those questions. If you'd been on a similar thread way back then, would you have said creating Wakanda and Black Panther was patently absurd?

Nobody said Marvel is required to create new titles. But if they are going to portray other gods, there is no reason to make them weaker or never of equal authority to Odin. Your reference to business reality makes it sound like if Ra or a native American deity was as powerful as Odin ormaybe rotated in as the head of the gods for a while, so many white readers would be so utterly offeneded that they would boycott Marvel that the company would lose money. Either the readers you know are extremely protective of Odin being in charge, or you're making up reasons out of your butt. Whatever the reasons for picking the Norse in the first place, Marvel could (in the handbook and maybe an issue or two over the next few years) bring the other gods (that they've already chosen to portray in various comcs and list stats for) to comparable power and respect status, and, you know what? I doubt they'll lose any money doing it. Might even get some more readers.

[DaeJi]

Looking through all this, I do agree that if a writer is going to use gods from other mythologies they should be as powerful as the Norse and Greek gods. However I also agree that Marvel shouldn't force writers to use different gods, and that they should only be used if a writer has a story to tell with them.

[Camron Amaya]

I wanted to come up with something totally different. I thought it would fun to invent someone as powerful as, or perhaps even more powerful than, the Incredible Hulk. But how do you make someone stronger than the strongest human? It finally came to me: Don't make him human — make him a god. I decided readers were already pretty familiar with the Greek and Roman gods. It might be fun to delve into the old Norse legends.... Besides, I pictured Norse gods looking like Vikings of old, with the flowing beards, horned helmets, and battle clubs. I liked imagery.
One of our established titles, Journey into Mystery, needed a shot in the arm, so I picked Thor ... to headline the book. After writing an outline depicting the story and the characters I had in mind, I asked my brother, Larry, to write the script because I didn't have time. ...[A]nd it was only natural for me to assign the penciling to Jack Kirby, who drew it as though he had spent his whole life in Asgard, the home of the gods.

[niall mc cann]

That seems to answer itself. It's no longer that time or that culture. It's a multicultural world. Old vestiages of implied white superiority -- even though unintentional and common for a previous time period -- should be phased out.

See, the problem with that is that they were never "phased in".

It was a commercial mechanism that introduced and maintained them, and the only way that they'll change is through that same commerical mechanism.

If you really feel that the culture has changed so drastically that something different might work as well now, that's cool. I personally think you're jumping the gun, but I'm not american and defer to your greater familiarity (though i'd be interested in what makes you think a different pantheon might work now).

And my previous point still stands; for me personally, i'd rather wait until someone had a genuine story to tell with the Tuatha de Danan rather than see them dragged in to some story for some politically-motivated power-level alteration (even that concept seems slightly ridiculous to me).

For other Pantheons, read Thor: Blood Oath. I think it came out in 2005, and it features the Norse, Japanese, Greek, Celtic and Egyptian gods, that I remember. There might be more. None of the gods were portrayed as weak.
Peace.

Interesting fact of which you may not be aware: Blood Oath was actually a blatant retelling of one of the old Celtic legends, lifted almost plot-point for plot-point.

[Magneto X]

i'd rather wait until someone had a genuine story to tell with the Tuatha de Danan rather than see them dragged in to some story for some politically-motivated power-level alteration (even that concept seems slightly ridiculous to me).

While the tokenism of the Super Friends is definitely not the way to go, if done well, socially-motivated inclusion (I'm not sure if politically-motivated is the right word) can inspire creativity, not lock it into some formula, and social-negligence can be just as bad as social-motivation. For instance, whatever the reason your Fortune 500 company has a board of directors who are all white men, it might make sense to not wait decades for that to "work itself out naturally." During that time the lack of women, for instance, might cause a blindspot. And if those Bugs Bunny cartoons had kept running those black-sambo characters because they were popular in the past, it would have ruined their cartoons for the recent generations. Good thing they had some social-awareness or motivation or whatever it takes to not portray an all-white world when that's unrealistic.

It wasn't either ridiculous or politically-motivated (or if it was, who cares?) that Marvel introduced Ms. Marvel to demonstrate that women can have the qualities we admire in heroes. It wasn't ridiculous to introduce Black Panther to demosntrate that black people can have the qualities we admire in heroes. It wasn't ridiculous for Marvel to replace the prep-school looking original X-Men with a cast that included an African woman, a Canadian, a Russian and a German, and if it was politically motivated, again who cares, it's probably the idea that made Marvel a success instead of bankrupting.

Creativity can be inspired by a suggestion, as long as the suggestion is open enough. A good writer could use a suggestion like, "what if one of the other pantheons of gods took over, how would Thor react to that?" and write something good, just like good writers took the above suggestions about women, black and international heroes and created what we now know, love and take for granted.


It is artificial to portray a world where 99% of the heroes are white American men.

It's not artificial to start to include those left out by previous bad writing.

[sinjection]

Excellent topic!

It's my opinion, based on my observance of fictional stories - in books, television programs, and/or movies - usually written by white American writers, that there seem to be 3 distinct directions such stories follow when depicting competition or conflict between white and black antagonists.

Situation 1) White is dominant. Black is woefully inferior.

Situation 2) White is dominant. Black - though outclassed - is noble throughout the conflict and at times, gains the grudging respect and admiration of the white victor.

Situation 3) Black is dominant. White is cast in role of huge underdog who through arduous effort and profound courage in the face of adversity, wins the support of the audience as the climactic battle is joined against the dominant black foe.

I would recognize situation 1 as a "Dirty Harry" movie where Clint taunts the black thugs..."Go ahead. May my day." Or the movie "Colors" which featured Sean Penn as the white male paragon of virtue protecting decent society from ..."I am a nightmare walkin', psychopath talkin'. King of my jungle, just a gangsta stalkin', livin' life like a firecracker - quick is my fuse..." young, black male gangbangers.

Anyone whose ever seen the movie "Zulu" - not "Zulu Dawn", but "Zulu" might possibly recognize situation 2 in that movie. I can also see an element of 2 in the character of the "physical contests" waged between Captain America and the Black Panther which have seen Captain America emerge victorious. This situation could also have been recognized shortly after the end of the Civil War. T'Challa and Ororo had not meekly submitted to Iron Man's victorious forces and Maria Hill - I guess that's what the woman's name is - wanted the Panther and Storm taken down. Iron Man told Hill that the Panther was a man of pride and honor. If he wasn't pushed beyond a certain limit, T'Challa would accept that the cause of Captain America, which T'Challa supported and eventually fought for, was lost. In other words, the Panther would admit defeat without making a "big showing" of being beaten.

Situation 3 "Rocky" I, II and III; "Friday Night Lights".

I can't say that I've seen situations 1 and 3 in a Marvel Comic. However, as someone posted earlier, this is a medium primarily produced for and primarily concerned with the preferences of a white male audience. These preferences would not include too many incidents of black male characters dominating white male characters. Those white male comic book fans who might also be fans of this nation's most popular sporting events see enough black male dominance in those sporting events. They would rather not see that same dominance in their comic books. Therefore, while it seems sensible that "black gods", "brown gods", "red and yellow gods" should be as powerful as "white gods", it isn't likely to be the case in this medium.

This African god, "Buluku" is very interesting. I see where he is recognized as the most powerful of the African or "black gods" - which probably would not include the Panther god, the Gorilla god, or the Lion god. This Buluku sent Shango - the African god of thunder - to aid Thor and some other gods against the demagorge.

I think it would be very interesting to see more of Buluku, Shango and the rest of the African pantheon in the pages of the Panther and possibly in a mini-series of their own. Not wanting to get off topic--I hope I haven't already been-- I am reminded of the black villian Condor. He is a winged human, not a mutant. He is from a race of avian people. The Condor was first, but he reminds me of a race of very beautiful, black avian people who appeared in the pages of Crossgen Comics' "Sojourn", a very good comic book.

I believe it would be interesting to re-introduce that race of avian people the Condor belonged to. Like the Eternals, those avians could be a race of black winged beings who exist between "black gods" and the black human race of the MU.

[niall mc cann]

While the tokenism of the Super Friends is definitely not the way to go, if done well, socially-motivated inclusion (I'm not sure if politically-motivated is the right word) can inspire creativity, not lock it into some formula, and social-negligence can be just as bad as social-motivation. For instance, whatever the reason your Fortune 500 company has a board of directors who are all white men, it might make sense to not wait decades for that to "work itself out naturally." During that time the lack of women, for instance, might cause a blindspot. And if those Bugs Bunny cartoons had kept running those black-sambo characters because they were popular in the past, it would have ruined their cartoons for the recent generations. Good thing they had some social-awareness or motivation or whatever it takes to not portray an all-white world when that's unrealistic.

Yeh, but again, if those changes aren't commercially motivated (and frankly, i think there's undeniably an element of commercialism in them) they are maintained for that reason. Fortune 500 companies rarely make decisions based on purely ideological concerns.

It wasn't either ridiculous or politically-motivated (or if it was, who cares?) that Marvel introduced Ms. Marvel to demonstrate that women can have the qualities we admire in heroes. It wasn't ridiculous to introduce Black Panther to demosntrate that black people can have the qualities we admire in heroes. It wasn't ridiculous for Marvel to replace the prep-school looking original X-Men with a cast that included an African woman, a Canadian, a Russian and a German, and if it was politically motivated, again who cares, it's probably the idea that made Marvel a success instead of bankrupting.

Certainly, those things weren't ridiculous. but none of them were introduced in response to how much other heroes could bench press.

Now, i have a soft spot for BP, so maybe i'm being naive, but i would really hope T'Challa wasn't introduced to comics because someone looked at Captain America's combat stats and thought, cripes! We better have a black character with equal stats or we won't be reflecting demographic breakdowns!

I would rather, in my naivete, believe that Stan and Jack came up with the him because of a passion for the character and a genuine desire to tell his story.

Creativity can be inspired by a suggestion, as long as the suggestion is open enough. A good writer could use a suggestion like, "what if one of the other pantheons of gods took over, how would Thor react to that?" and write something good, just like good writers took the above suggestions about women, black and international heroes and created what we now know, love and take for granted.

Well that sounds like a fun story, it does. But i think if you expect it to ultimately amount to more than "Thor eventually manages to drive out the encroachers and reclaim asgardian supremacy" you'll be disappointed. However, if ultimately all you're looking for is an entry in the handbook that says "officially, Set is now as strong as Thor", then i suppose it'd do, but that's a goal i just couldn't relate to.

For me personally, i'd rather see the Tuatha de Danan portrayed as magical streetwalkers in a good story that has something to say than as thanos-beaters in a bad story that's only about establishing power levels.

Now, of course, i suppose it's possible that they could be portrayed as thanos beaters in a good story about establishing power levels, but i guess there's a bit of a snob in me: i don't believe there's very many good stories out there that have been based on pandering to fanboys. That stuff doesn't interest me, really.


It is artificial to portray a world where 99% of the heroes are white American men.

It's not artificial to start to include those left out by previous bad writing.

Well, i'd simply object to the idea that a comics cast of characters has to be to broken down according to global demographics in order to constitute "good writing".

[Brian M.]

I like being a white devil.

[DaeJi]

I think it would be very interesting to see more of Buluku, Shango and the rest of the African pantheon in the pages of the Panther and possibly in a mini-series of their own.

Well, if someone has a story to tell, it might be cool. I love mythology, and love seeing other gods other than the Greek, Norse, and Egyptian get play. But I don't want other gods shoehorned into stories for the sake of diversity.

[Magneto X]

Well, i'd simply object to the idea that a comics cast of characters has to be to broken down according to global demographics in order to constitute "good writing".

That's fair. But I think it's a bit of a straw-man argument. It's not like anyone is suggesting that every team be demographically perfect, just that the most obvious imbalances start getting corrected. Besides "good writing" there is also how do you define bad-writing? Is it simply based on what the motivation is. If the motivation is money or personal knowledge, is that the end of the analysis? It's therefore not bad, even if it results in decades of a heavilly-imballanced stories? Part of an editor's job should be spotting what kinds of stories are being left out. Individuality meets some oversight.

[sinjection]

Well, if someone has a story to tell, it might be cool. I love mythology, and love seeing other gods other than the Greek, Norse, and Egyptian get play. But I don't want other gods shoehorned into stories for the sake of diversity.

Buluku, Shango and the Vodu Pantheon wouldn't be "shoehorned" into the Black Panther for the sake of diversity. The Black Panther and Storm are the two standard bearers of adversity in Marvel Comics. The Vodo Pantheon, the Condor and his avian-human race and associated concepts could be integrated seamlessly into the pages of the Black Panther just as the Lion God was integrated into Roy Thomas' Mighty Avengers stories in the mid 1970s.

[Brian M.]

That's fair. But I think it's a bit of a straw-man argument. It's not like anyone is suggesting that every team be demographically perfect, just that the most obvious imbalances start getting corrected. Besides "good writing" there is also how do you define bad-writing? Is it simply based on what the motivation is. If the motivation is money or personal knowledge, is that the end of the analysis? It's therefore not bad, even if it results in decades of a heavilly-imballanced stories? Part of an editor's job should be spotting what kinds of stories are being left out. Individuality meets some oversight.

I'm making up this number but for the sake of my question it's ok. If say 80% of your readership is young white males, would it make sense to have 80% of the team in the comic said person is reading, to be white?

Is that fair?

Is it right?

[StoneGold]

It wasn't either ridiculous or politically-motivated (or if it was, who cares?) that Marvel introduced Ms. Marvel to demonstrate that women can have the qualities we admire in heroes. It wasn't ridiculous to introduce Black Panther to demosntrate that black people can have the qualities we admire in heroes. It wasn't ridiculous for Marvel to replace the prep-school looking original X-Men with a cast that included an African woman, a Canadian, a Russian and a German, and if it was politically motivated, again who cares, it's probably the idea that made Marvel a success instead of bankrupting.


Several key things you are leaving out though: Black Panther and Ms. Marvel were never financial successes until very recently, whereas the X-Men were actually canceled due to low sales when they replaced them with the new team. Whereas Thor's artificial cancelation created an environment where the new book is the #1 comic in America. You are arguing against market forces here.

[Magneto X]

I'm making up this number but for the sake of my question it's ok. If say 80% of your readership is young white males, would it make sense to have 80% of the team in the comic said person is reading, to be white?


I bet 80% of the readers of Black Panther are white.


Several key things you are leaving out though: Black Panther and Ms. Marvel were never financial successes until very recently, whereas the X-Men were actually canceled due to low sales when they replaced them with the new team. Whereas Thor's artificial cancelation created an environment where the new book is the #1 comic in America. You are arguing against market forces here.

That's a good counter argument. But I think it is too faithful to there being a single market strategy AND that the one market strategy is so revered that it micromanages comic plots. Marketing is less formulaic, and more a series of gambles. Often, especially when it comes to popular culture, the company is shocked by how successful a new and unlikely strategy is. Neither of us have the data and, even if we did, it's far from perfect and probably not the key criteria to every Marvel launch, much less every Marvel plot arc.

[StoneGold]

That's a good counter argument. But I think it is too faithful to there being a single market strategy AND that the one market strategy is so revered that it micromanages comic plots. Marketing is less formulaic, and more a series of gambles. Often, especially when it comes to popular culture, the company is shocked by how successful a new and unlikely strategy is. Neither of us have the data and, even if we did, it's far from perfect and probably not the key criteria to every Marvel launch, much less every Marvel plot arc.

No, but we can look at some annecdotal evidence. And there are a lot of factors that may point in different directions, but let's go over it, shall we?

Since we are discussing Marvel, let's limit it to Marvel. It is extremely difficult to launch a new title in today's market, let alone a title with no real connections to other books. Even books by superstars have difficulty making it. Look at Criminal. Ed Brubaker and the Marvel Zombies guy, and Bru has to shill the hell out of it to get it going.

You can improve sales by popping a superstar creative team on a book, but it does tend to take a nosedive when they leave. Sales went down on Black Panther and Wolverine when JRJr left, replaced by artists without his cache.

And here's the biggest problem: for one reason or another, books focusing on ethnicities other than generic white people tend to tank. And it's not really a matter of them getting buried, either. OK, The Crew might not have gotten the best marketing push, but I don't think anyone can say they didn't push the hell out of Arana or White Tiger when they came out. Truth supposedly had dissapointing sales, at least before trade. I don't believe the MAX Cage book did that well. Or the Shang Chi MAX book. Partially because they weren't very good. And the other books might not have been as well, but hell, people bash New Avengers all over the Internet, and it's a perrenial top 10 book.



Now, these are not my own personal feelings, except for commenting on the quality of the two MAX books. If the Crew was still coming out, I'd buy it. I liked Truth, although it did read much better in one sitting. But despite several attempts, the only book starring a non-white lead that has support-level sales in a 40 year old character created by Stan and Jack. Every attempt at creating a new character to break that track record has failed. Historically, even. Power Man was canceled, until they teamed him up with a white guy in green pajamas.

I can almost guarantee that unless you put Millar and McNiven, or some similar team, on it, a Ngai book would fail. For a variety of reasons, but it would not sell. The question that we cannot answer, that we don't have the marketing data for, is why it wouldn't sell. But it wouldn't.

[Harold of the Rocks]

That's a good counter argument. But I think it is too faithful to there being a single market strategy AND that the one market strategy is so revered that it micromanages comic plots. Marketing is less formulaic, and more a series of gambles. Often, especially when it comes to popular culture, the company is shocked by how successful a new and unlikely strategy is. Neither of us have the data and, even if we did, it's far from perfect and probably not the key criteria to every Marvel launch, much less every Marvel plot arc.I think you are creating a bit of a staw man yourself here, though perhaps unintentionally. StoneGold didn't say there was a specific single stategy, nor that 'it' dictated plots. (Correct me if I am wrong, Stoner) He's demonstrating that there are market forces at work here... that includes demand from the market, and the culture of that market. By pointing out the financial difficulties that a 'less diverse' title character (or characters) had is not to say that editorial mandated or micromanaged plots. It is observing that some attempts at character diversity were not historically as successful as one might have hoped. I think he's adding some historical perspetive that some attempts to diversify characters by Marvel were not met with financial success and that the 'blame' may lie at least in part with the market itself, not just with the creators.

[Magneto X]

It is observing that some attempts at character diversity were not historically as successful as one might have hoped. I think he's adding some historical perspetive that some attempts to diversify characters by Marvel were not met with financial success and that the 'blame' may lie at least in part with the market itself, not just with the creators.

Okay. Sure. Anyway, the point shouldn't be blame, but improvement.

The question that we cannot answer, that we don't have the marketing data for, is why it wouldn't sell.

Can't argue with any of that. Most any new title is likely to fail. But I don't want a new title, more like a retcon. Just some showings of the other gods as not being inferior. They don't even have to give Odin a beat down, maybe just do something he can't. Or do anything good and important in their entire history of Marvel existence. Maybe in Thor's book. Maybe in the Avengers or elsewhere.

[Harold of the Rocks]

Okay. Sure. Anyway, the point shouldn't be blame, but improvement.



Can't argue with any of that. Most any new title is likely to fail. But I don't want a new title, more like a retcon. Just some showings of the other gods as not being inferior. They don't even have to give Odin a beat down, maybe just do something he can't. Or do anything good and important in their entire history of Marvel existence. Maybe in Thor's book. Maybe in the Avengers or elsewhere.Totally agree that blame gets us nowhere. Maybe a better word would have been 'flaw' in describing the market. Regardless, as someone already pointed out, Marvel is a business and can't champion diversity at the expense of profits, at least not to the point that the company loses too much. A sad reality, but reality nonetheless.

As far as Odin, what has he been shown to be unable to do? The list would be awfully short, and that might make it difficult to realize your latter goal. A good idea, but probably difficult to implement. Certainly not impossible, though.

One last thought, why the 'warrior' mindset? I have seen portrayals of non-white deities to be noble, thoughtful, generous and loving. Aren't these great attributes as well? I understand the medium, and the glorification of 'might' within it. Just trying to demonstrate that we might be looking at these portrayals through lenses we aren't aware of (this includes myself).

[StoneGold]

Can't argue with any of that. Most any new title is likely to fail. But I don't want a new title, more like a retcon. Just some showings of the other gods as not being inferior. They don't even have to give Odin a beat down, maybe just do something he can't. Or do anything good and important in their entire history of Marvel existence. Maybe in Thor's book. Maybe in the Avengers or elsewhere.

You don't even need a retcon for that though. It's happened. It's just Odin and the Asgardians are going to win out in the end, because the name on the masthead is Thor. And unless a popular Raiden book starts up at Marvel, that's the way it's always going to be. Just like in Black Panther, he might get beat down at some point, but at the end of the day, he's going to end up on top.

[Kyle_Ion]

I'm a huge fan of the gods of marvel especially the Asgardians. My 2 favorite Asgardians are Thor and Odin. I would like to see the different pantheons other than the Asgards become more involved with the citizens of Earth, and see more of the tensions between the other pantheons that could lead to a war or wars between the different Pantheon's of gods.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I like being a white devil.

Your a comic fan , white and your holding Black Panther down. Damn you sir.....damn you.:evilsmile :p

I bet 80% of the readers of Black Panther are white.


I'd hazard a guess that there is a good split demographic for Black Panther. I mean theres a fanbase out there for the character but its a hard one. Its like Hawkman who has suffered a lot of relaunches and can't hold the series....

[niall mc cann]

That's fair. But I think it's a bit of a straw-man argument. It's not like anyone is suggesting that every team be demographically perfect, just that the most obvious imbalances start getting corrected.

You're quite right, it is, but it was just an adendum, in my defense. I feel like i made my major points in that same post, those being;

Fortune 500 companies would not, as a rule, suffer loss of revenue or inadequate returns for ideological concerns, and i doubt Marvel would, either.

Your examples of diversity are good ones, and led to quality stories, but i feel that there was more to the introduction of those characters you describe than a wish to tinker with power stats. For me, Storm wasn't some token african; she was a character fundamental to the team dynamic.

And finally, any story that involved the Asgardians being challenged by another pantheon would ultimately end with the other pantheon being defeated and driven away, 'cause it's a Thor book, which would seem to render it pointless if its purpose is to prove Set is as strong as Thor.

[sinjection]

And finally, any story that involved the Asgardians being challenged by another pantheon would ultimately end with the other pantheon being defeated and driven away, 'cause it's a Thor book, which would seem to render it pointless if its purpose is to prove Set is as strong as Thor.

That's not entirely true.

Years ago, a Giant Size Thor Annual was published featuring a story of a war between the Gods of Olympus and the Gods of Asgard...Loki's doing, of course.

The gods of both pantheons met on the battlefield. The Asgardians were led into battle by Thor, the Olympians by Hercules and Ares (who was absolutely loving it). On a cliff high above the looming battle, Odin and Zeus met. They didn't say a word to each other, but they reached a decision on how the battle should conclude.

The war was fierce and brutal. Finally, an Asgardian warrior was seen blowing the trumpet proclaiming the victory of the Asgardians. When Thor returned to Odin to tell him of their victory, he was surprised and then angered to learn that Odin and Zeus had decided to let each side believe that they had emerged victorious. Hercules, Ares and the Olympian gods believed that they had conquered the Asgardians.

Neither pantheon won, neither lost.

[Magneto X]

I would like to see the different pantheons other than the Asgards become more involved with the citizens of Earth, and see more of the tensions between the other pantheons that could lead to a war or wars between the different Pantheon's of gods.

That would be cool! :cool:

[Camron Amaya]

Yea but if one if the "white" pantheons wins....then here we go again.

[StoneGold]

Yea but if one if the "white" pantheons wins....then here we go again.

Actually, it just happened without much fanfare or complaints. As mentioned, the Ares mini had the Japanese god of evil taking over his pantheon and cutting a path of destruction through the other pantheons, until it got to Olympus. Which didn't fare too well, with Zeus apparently dying, but as Ares and Herc are still running around, it's safe to say they won.

[Magneto X]

Actually, it just happened without much fanfare or complaints. As mentioned, the Ares mini had the Japanese god of evil taking over his pantheon and cutting a path of destruction through the other pantheons, until it got to Olympus. Which didn't fare too well, with Zeus apparently dying, but as Ares and Herc are still running around, it's safe to say they won.

I'd like to get that. What's the issue?

[StoneGold]

I'd like to get that. What's the issue?

As I said in the post, it's in the Ares mini. Throughout all of them.

[Magneto X]

Actually, it just happened without much fanfare or complaints. As mentioned, the Ares mini had the Japanese god of evil taking over his pantheon and cutting a path of destruction through the other pantheons, until it got to Olympus. Which didn't fare too well, with Zeus apparently dying, but as Ares and Herc are still running around, it's safe to say they won.

Mikaboshi rules.

Now he's outsmarted the champions of the other pantheons in the Nightmare fight and the Skrull god fight, and left himself more powerful than ever.

It took decades. But no longer does it appear that Zeus and Odin are inexplicably so much more uber than the other godheads, which seems more balanced.

[Kyle_Ion]

Mikaboshi rules.

Now he's outsmarted the champions of the other pantheons in the Nightmare fight and the Skrull god fight, and left himself more powerful than ever.

It took decades. But no longer does it appear that Zeus and Odin are inexplicably so much more uber than the other godheads, which seems more balanced.

except of course Thor might be more powerful than odin and zeus and mikaboshi. See according to JMS this thor series continues where Thor V2 left off, at the end of V2 of thor, thor had complete control of the rune magic and the odin power was following (don't know if thor had control of the odin power as well). So the question that we all have to ask ourselves what version of thor is this, is it the thor with the odin power (it seems and according to thor that he as the odin power) or is it thor with the complete rune magic? Or is it a Thor with access to both the odin power and rune magic? So right now i'm not going to make a guess at what type of thor this is even though thor says that he used up to much of the odin power bringing everyone back.