If You Could Heel/Face Turn a Character...

[overcomebyfumes]

Slapstick's recent actions had me thinking, if you could "heel turn" one hero and "face turn" one villian at Marvel, who would you pick? Why?

(For those who may be unfamiliar with pro-wrestling terms, a "heel turn" is a good guy turning into a bad guy, and a "face turn" is a bad guy turning into a good guy. Some characters, like Magneto, have taken multiple turns over the course of their careers. Some characters are so morally grey, like the Punisher, that the terms don't really mean that much.)

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing Tony Stark taking even more of a heel turn and becoming an out and out criminal mastermind, but I know it's not going to happen with the movie coming out.

Moon Knight could very easily turn heel.

As for the villians, I'd like to see the Mad Thinker come over to the good side. Maybe checking Reed's equations during the Civil War converted him. The Mad Thinker's an underused character, heel or face, and his turn to light could be very interesting. He'd be a good pick to lead an Initiative team and Awesome Andy could once again be a force for goodness and decency. A Mad Thinker/Norman Osborne feud would be hellaciously cool as well.

One of the real heels in the Thunderbolts suddenly taking the idea of redemption seriously could be an interesting plot twist. There's already been some hinting that Mac Gargan/Venom is becoming a bit uncomfortable with his evil ways. I could easily see Venom turning face.

Who are your picks and why?

pax.

[Monty_Cristo]

i think the final battle between Henry Pym and Ultron should result in Pym's mind being permanently trapped in Ultron's form. this would drive him nuts/lead to the heel turn.

[Jinxer]

I'd like to see an Evil Squirrel Girl... serious.

I'd also like to see a good Kingpin. Doing charity events etc.

[EnDwiGast]

i think the final battle between Henry Pym and Ultron should result in Pym's mind being permanently trapped in Ultron's form. this would drive him nuts/lead to the heel turn.

I'd rather see that happen to O'Grady.

[Capt USA]

I would say Hank Pym also, but his actions in the initiative already seem pretty evil so it's a little late for him.

I would like to see the punisher become a good guy.

and let cyclops become evil. not that anyone would notice if he ever actually did anything, is there a more waste of time of a character in a comic book?

[DaeJi]

Switching characters between hero and villain roles is so tricky to do well.. I've always preferred characters that are more ambiguous, that can be either depending on the story. Character like Mystique, Sandman, Juggernaut, Drax, Taskmaster, Deadpool, Cho, Stardust, etc. Adds a fun dynamic to the characters.

Still, if I had to pick a hero to go bad, I would choose.... well, no one really. I would prefer heroes to either be heroes or more ambiguous like the characters above. Now, for a villain going hero I would definitly choose Spiral. She would make a great hero.

[Dr. Chaos]

Another vote here for Pym.

I'm always up for putting him in a position to get his ass kicked.

I think Ultimate Hank has spoiled me.

[Magneto Rocks]

If Magneto is a villain again, I want him to heel turn.

Again.

He always works best when morally ambiguous.

[jackolover]

and let cyclops become evil. not that anyone would notice if he ever actually did anything, is there a more waste of time of a character in a comic book?

JUst like Captain America needed Civil War to become interesting, Cylops could require something like a heel turn, to make him interesting. Scott Summers has been far too staid, as a character, for too long. He is supposed to be the leader of all mutants, and yet he is so one-dimensional. I think if he went rogue, and lost all that boy scout, Professor X-fundamentalism, maybe writers could use him a whole lot more, as an agressive, who can release his emotions more. I could see that.

[Jinxer]

JUst like Captain America needed Civil War to become interesting, Cylops could require something like a heel turn, to make him interesting. Scott Summers has been far too staid, as a character, for too long. He is supposed to be the leader of all mutants, and yet he is so one-dimensional. I think if he went rogue, and lost all that boy scout, Professor X-fundamentalism, maybe writers could use him a whole lot more, as an agressive, who can release his emotions more. I could see that.

You mean like when he lost his powers and had to use a gun?

[jackolover]

You mean like when he lost his powers and had to use a gun?

I'm not a big collector of X-Men. Did Scott go bad when he lost his powers, at some time ago?

[Spiffy]

Pym has always had the capacity to snap, so that seems like a good idea. Then again, look at other recent examples of hero/villain terms and it hasn't worked that well. Wanda Maximoff being the WORST, since in her case it was more hero to CRAZY. Her brother's change was a bit better, but its been overdone since then.

As for villains to hero... I say draw on tradition. The best examples of that in Marvel history ALWAYS come from the Spider-verse. Even though Uncle Ben was killed by a criminal, redemption has always been an essential ongoing theme of the book. Spidey's wisecracking has frequently covered a sympathetic nature and ability to get villains to rethink their lives.

The problem is the absense of good new Spidey villains in the JMS age to "turn". Its been already done (and sometimes undone) with all of the applicable classic villains.

Oh! Here's a great suggestion. A 12 issue miniseries, apart from the normal ongoing, about Punisher "redeeming" himself. Something which, of course, goes all to hell by the end (and it being him, and him having an ongoing title outside that where he's still him, everyone will know that's coming of course).

Okay, outside the Spidey-verse and Punny, I think its harder. Especially if you want it to be someone with current relevance. Recently relevent villains... hmm. How about... Gamora? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamora) Its been done most of the way with her before anyway. She's a character who's been equally as interesting whether she's a hero or a villain.

While going "bad" is almost de reguer for X-people, one who I don't think they've given a good "bad" cycle to in recent years is Wolverine. I'd never turn him evil for good, but a nice stint would be interesting because of how incredibly deadly he can be. It might be hard to write though, because if you have him murder TOO many people, how can you make him seem heroic again? It's tough enough with heroes who are less ferocious.

[DaeJi]

Okay, outside the Spidey-verse and Punny, I think its harder. Especially if you want it to be someone with current relevance. Recently relevent villains... hmm. How about... Gamora? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamora) Its been done most of the way with her before anyway. She's a character who's been equally as interesting whether she's a hero or a villain.

I think Gamora has always worked best as a hero. Though, the Super-Skrull is an interesting character; I would use him as a villain on Earth, but a hero in space.

[Mississippienne]

I don't think Punisher cares very much whether or not the spandex underwear set considers him a hero or not. He's always been all about the mission, not being accepted by superheroes.

Baron Zemo had an awesome, long-running face turn from racist, pathetic, bugfuck nuts second-rate Cap villain to morally ambiguous, scheming, conflicted semi-reformed kinda-hero.

Puma is another one who went from super-menace to not exactly honorable, but definately not evil.

Villains who have a tinge of honor to them tend to make the most convincing face turns: Magneto, Super-Skrull, Ronan the Accuser, etc. A lot of the time, these villains aren't truly evil, but their goals do NOT coincide with those of the superheroes they encounter.

Heroes going villainous has rarely been done well -- a lot of the time, the writers chicken out and write it away as mind control or something (cf Parallax). Has there ever been a case of a character starting out as a hero, and then going straight-up heel turn with no cop-outs in a mainstream comic book? And I'm not counting Iron Man or Hank Pym or that type, but a character being generally considered by his or her former superhero peers to be villainous, not merely misguided or "evil for now" or possessed by an alien entity or Ultron-tech or whatever.

[overcomebyfumes]

Has there ever been a case of a character starting out as a hero, and then going straight-up heel turn with no cop-outs in a mainstream comic book? And I'm not counting Iron Man or Hank Pym or that type, but a character being generally considered by his or her former superhero peers to be villainous, not merely misguided or "evil for now" or possessed by an alien entity or Ultron-tech or whatever.


I think the closest they came was Dark Phoenix, but then they eventually came up with the lame-ass retcon that it wasn't really Jean Grey and it had been the "Phoenix Force" all along instead. Then I got pissed at Marvel for doing that and stopped reading comics for 12 years.

Although I do have to say, Pietro's turn in House of M/Son of M/Silent War is pretty convincing so far. Stay away from Terragenisis Crystals, kiddies. The only problem with Pietro at the moment is that he's so effed up on the crystals that he's not a convincing threat to anyone; he's a very pathetic sort of evil.

I'd like to see them do it. Marvel keeps loosing good villians by turning them face (isn't the Juggernaut a good guy now? Do I have that right?), I'd like to see at least one major Marvel hero turn heel permanantly and without cop-outs. My vote would be Iron Man, but like I said, movie coming out and all.

I don't think the Hulk counts. Yes, he's a threat to earth, but I think we're enjoying the smashing a little too much. It's too easy to see that from the Hulk's perspective, he's completely justified.

pax.

[Magneto Rocks]

While going "bad" is almost de reguer for X-people, one who I don't think they've given a good "bad" cycle to in recent years is Wolverine. I'd never turn him evil for good, but a nice stint would be interesting because of how incredibly deadly he can be. It might be hard to write though, because if you have him murder TOO many people, how can you make him seem heroic again? It's tough enough with heroes who are less ferocious.

When most heroes go bad, they don't get anywhere near the amount of badassery and kicking of ass that Wolverine did in "Enemy of the State".

Oh I know another heel turn, they could make Hulk a hero again. ;)

[Jinxer]

I'm not a big collector of X-Men. Did Scott go bad when he lost his powers, at some time ago?

He didn't go bad he just did things... different.

Also, good Kingpin! C'mon! I think that'd be awesome!

Maybe in a What If or something.

Kingpin's a tree-hugging-green-hippie-420 environmentalist with a fat pocketbook. Daredevil's a corporate lawyer who wants to secure rights to some ancient forest. All they'd have to do is print seven copies, I'll buy all seven.

[Cestrian]

Villains who have a tinge of honor to them tend to make the most convincing face turns: Magneto, Super-Skrull, Ronan the Accuser, etc. A lot of the time, these villains aren't truly evil, but their goals do NOT coincide with those of the superheroes they encounter.

I'm not sure I would include a sadist like K'lrt in there. Yes he ultimately just cares for the welfare of his people but when he's not just willing but eager to torture and murder his enemies I personally would still consider him evil. Great character and some one who can quite convincingly work with the heroes if their interests coincide but I can't see him as a hero himself.

[BeastieRunner]

Where does this term "face/heel" come from?

[Expletive Deleted]

Where does this term "face/heel" come from?I believe it's a professional wrestling term. And that saddens me.

[Dr. Chaos]

Don't be such a tweener, Expletive. :p

[Omega Alpha]

Cap. America would be a great choice. For one thing, he's as boring as it gets, so he can't get worse. And it could be cool to see him after his return realizing that his country isn't living up to it's ideals (and not just on the SHRA, on everything) so he decides he has to make the US as good as they can be, even if they don't want to. Add the fact he's a tactical genius and the daddy of the MU, the idol of almost every hero, and you have great stories. It's a shame Marvel will never do something like that.

[BeastieRunner]

I believe it's a professional wrestling term. And that saddens me.

I feel I should end every post in this thread with "brother" now. OoooooooH YEEEEEAAAAAH!

[Capt USA]

Cap. America would be a great choice. For one thing, he's as boring as it gets, so he can't get worse. And it could be cool to see him after his return realizing that his country isn't living up to it's ideals (and not just on the SHRA, on everything) so he decides he has to make the US as good as they can be, even if they don't want to. Add the fact he's a tactical genius and the daddy of the MU, the idol of almost every hero, and you have great stories. It's a shame Marvel will never do something like that.

Huh???? Captain America has been the best written solo character in comics for the past 3 years, even before his death.

I have never understood the cap is boring, boring is idiotic killing because I'm too stupid to take out a person on my own(see punisher---boring is a villain as a main character)

[Omega Alpha]

Huh???? Captain America has been the best written solo character in comics for the past 3 years, even before his death.

Yes, his solo is great, but even Brubaker did not made him an interesting character. The book got better with him dead, actually.

[overcomebyfumes]

Where does this term "face/heel" come from?

I believe it's a professional wrestling term. And that saddens me.

Embrace it, ED.

The phrase "to mark out" is also a pro-wrestling term you may see employed here on the boards. It comes from wrestler's derogatory labeling of fans as "marks" (presumably derived from "easy marks"). Some fans ironically claim that term as their own, and "to mark out" means to be so drawn into the show (or comic) that you react exactly like an ignorant fanboy would at a critical moment (i.e. with extreme mindless blithering enthusiasm), even though you're smarter than that and know the whole thing was scripted to elicit exactly that reaction from you.

As in "I really marked out when Slapstick turned heel." Or, "I was marking out for the whole Silver Surfer / T&A fight in Annhilation."


pax. OoooooooH YEEEEEAAAAAH BROTHER!!!! Whatcha gonna do?

[Greg Anderson]

JUst like Captain America needed Civil War to become interesting, Cylops could require something like a heel turn, to make him interesting. Scott Summers has been far too staid, as a character, for too long. He is supposed to be the leader of all mutants, and yet he is so one-dimensional. I think if he went rogue, and lost all that boy scout, Professor X-fundamentalism, maybe writers could use him a whole lot more, as an agressive, who can release his emotions more. I could see that.

Soooo.... You haven't been reading X-Men for the past few years, I see.

[Jinxer]

Being evil makes things interesting!

[overcomebyfumes]

Self deleted for mean-spiritedness and irrelevence. I'm a little messed up on Nyquil right now, and I shouldn't be posting. 'Night all.

[Omega Alpha]

Soooo.... You haven't been reading X-Men for the past few years, I see.

Or have never read them, period.

Being evil makes things interesting!

http://www.comixconnection.com/uploaded_images/redskull.0-793094.gif

supports this message.

[BeastieRunner]

Embrace it, ED.

The phrase "to mark out" is also a pro-wrestling term you may see employed here on the boards. It comes from wrestler's derogatory labeling of fans as "marks" (presumably derived from "easy marks"). Some fans ironically claim that term as their own, and "to mark out" means to be so drawn into the show (or comic) that you react exactly like an ignorant fanboy would at a critical moment (i.e. with extreme mindless blithering enthusiasm), even though you're smarter than that and know the whole thing was scripted to elicit exactly that reaction from you.

As in "I really marked out when Slapstick turned heel." Or, "I was marking out for the whole Silver Surfer / T&A fight in Annhilation."


pax. OoooooooH YEEEEEAAAAAH BROTHER!!!! Whatcha gonna do?

I thought us "comic book fans" had enough terms to throw around . . . brother!?

[Monty_Cristo]

Huh???? Captain America has been the best written solo character in comics for the past 3 years, even before his death.

I have never understood the cap is boring, boring is idiotic killing because I'm too stupid to take out a person on my own(see punisher---boring is a villain as a main character)

you're no more right than those who say that Cap is boring. different strokes for different folks yadda yadda yadda. i only like Cap when he's leading a team. as a solo character i must admit that i can't relate. doesn't make him a bad character. just means i can't personally relate to him on the same level that a Cap fan could. i can't relate at all to the Punisher either. but i can easily see that he's an icon and has his fanbase. i tend to like characters who are neither extreme (boy scouts like Cap nor serial killers like the Punisher).

I thought us "comic book fans" had enough terms to throw around . . . brother!?

all of our terms are played out. i'm tired of the words 'retcon' and 'nerdgasm.' the superboy punch has also never interested me. i'm thinking of making up some new comic terms. like the other day, i got 'squirrel-girled.' how's that one?[/B]

[KetchFrayz]

Dr. Doom turning face

and


Wolverine turning heel

[jackolover]

Soooo.... You haven't been reading X-Men for the past few years, I see.

Well, yeah, in the CW crossovers, he's been White Queens little puppy.

[Arilou]

I tend to like the morally gray characters as well. Some "villains" (Kl'lrt, Ronan, etc. etc.) aren't really villains per se, they just work for a different boss. Doing face7heel turns for them is easy: Just a shift in policy, and, as they don't have any PERSONAL problems with the heroes, they'll be good guys. For now.

Captain America would be an interesting turnee, Scott Summers a bit less so, but likewise. Storm could be a pretty cool badguy as well.

As for villains, having the Shocker ditch the criminal career and start working heroically could work. Or Batroc. He was almost, kinda sorta helping the good guys in the Union Jack mini and I'd love to see that explored.

He'd probably be the only guy who'd become MORE competent going from bad to good...

[Monty_Cristo]

I tend to like the morally gray characters as well. Some "villains" (Kl'lrt, Ronan, etc. etc.) aren't really villains per se, they just work for a different boss. Doing face7heel turns for them is easy: Just a shift in policy, and, as they don't have any PERSONAL problems with the heroes, they'll be good guys. For now.

Captain America would be an interesting turnee, Scott Summers a bit less so, but likewise. Storm could be a pretty cool badguy as well.

As for villains, having the Shocker ditch the criminal career and start working heroically could work. Or Batroc. He was almost, kinda sorta helping the good guys in the Union Jack mini and I'd love to see that explored.

He'd probably be the only guy who'd become MORE competent going from bad to good...

Batroc is already an Initiative recruit/trainer.

[BeastieRunner]

all of our terms are played out. i'm tired of the words 'retcon' and 'nerdgasm.' the superboy punch has also never interested me. i'm thinking of making up some new comic terms. like the other day, i got 'squirrel-girled.' how's that one?[/b]

I support this movement.

[bluedmighty]

Heel- I would like to see Slap Stick go rouge (and become a Spidey villian OOOOOOO).

Heel- Charlie X been coming for a long time.

Heel- Reed Richards after CW why not?

Turn- Doom

Turn- Mosses Magnum

Turn- The White Wolf

[Harold of the Rocks]

Heel- I would like to see Slap Stick go rougeIs he currently bleu?

[Monty_Cristo]

Is he currently bleu?

more like an off-white or stucco.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Heel- I would like to see Slap Stick go rouge (and become a Spidey villian OOOOOOO).

Heel- Charlie X been coming for a long time.

Heel- Reed Richards after CW why not?

Turn- Doom

Turn- Mosses Magnum

Turn- The White Wolf

You want Doom to turn face? Like his 2099 self?

[mastaflan]

Face: "The Trapster" So much potential for this character as a Thunderbolt or in some hero team.

Face: "Speed Demon" I really liked what he was doing in the Thunderbolts and I wish he got more exposure.

Heel: "Wolverine" Quite possibly the scariest badguy ever if he went bad. Unstoppable and knows just about everyone.

Heel: "Justice" He'd make such a great badguy. Telekenesis mixed with disillusionment.


BTW I though that Banshee made a great villain before Mystic messed it all up.

[Trey]

Black Panther!!!! mofo's!!! Scare the #@%^ out of whitey!!!

Seriously, he would be a kickass enemy for IM and SHIELD, the FF and even the X-men. Especially with a great writer, how bout ....Ennis or Ellis? Hell's yeah, brother.


AS for villains becoming good guys, Zemo is a great example. I'll go with Thanos. Not a goody-good 2 shoes, more like a Namor or Zemo type of arc. Of course once he comes back to the world of the living, maybe his outlook will be changed.

[Trey]

Notice the most interesting characters right now are the ones that are on the edge. IM, THunderbolts (particularly the Fabian ones, but i'll include the Ellisbolts), Quicksilver, (first time of been interested) the Hulk i guess, and the X-men who are always on the edge.

[Monty_Cristo]

Black Panther!!!! mofo's!!! Scare the #@%^ out of whitey!!!

Seriously, he would be a kickass enemy for IM and SHIELD, the FF and even the X-men. Especially with a great writer, how bout ....Ennis or Ellis? Hell's yeah, brother.


i would have worked during Priest's run. now, i'm not so sure. it's kind of hard to picture him as the rogue enemy of the world governments with a wifey in-tow.

[Omega Alpha]

Is he currently bleu?

I really don't understand why people can't spell Rogue correctly...

[Monty_Cristo]

I really don't understand why people can't spell Rogue correctly...

they are too busy working on spelling Magento correctly.

[overcomebyfumes]

i would have worked during Priest's run. now, i'm not so sure. it's kind of hard to picture him as the rogue enemy of the world governments with a wifey in-tow.

Turn Storm heel too. Has there even been a husband-and-wife villian team? Not that I recollect. Storm's powers would be perfect for the traditional "blackmailing of the United Nations" cliche'.

Isn't Panther already a heel? I mean, he's got the cure for cancer and won't share. That's villian behavior in my book.



pax.

[Monty_Cristo]

Turn Storm heel too. Has there even been a husband-and-wife villian team? Not that I recollect. Storm's powers would be perfect for the traditional "blackmailing of the United Nations" cliche'.

Isn't Panther already a heel? I mean, he's got the cure for cancer and won't share. That's villian behavior in my book.



pax.


Helmut and Heike Zemo

[TonyJaymz03]

Jack Flag

Here he is, paralyzed due to iron Man and his initiative, more than likely about to afde back into limbo....so when Iron Man and a returning Captain America team up(and you know itll happen inventually) how do you think Jack Flag will react.

Its the perfect way to give someone 1) a reason and motivation to be a villain and 2) someone other than Red SKull and Crossbones to battle Cap

And how he becomes unparalyzed? simple....have someone like Doom or even the Red Skulll cure him through one of their nefarious means, and he sets out on a trail of revnege. Against Iron Man. Against Captain America. Against Everyone.

Shocker

He's always been a villain with a certain credo....he's in it for the money, not for killing or anything, so he could easily become a shady hero, maybe a hero for hire?

[bluedmighty]

I really don't understand why people can't spell Rogue correctly...

Sue me :p

Heel- Namor. Let's see what Atlantis can do.

Turn- Legion. Some aspect of his powers brings him back? With sanity and goodness in his flat top.

[bluedmighty]

You want Doom to turn face? Like his 2099 self?

I never read Doom 2009, but i kind of want him to pull a Magneto.

[Dagger]

Turn Storm heel too. Has there even been a husband-and-wife villian team? Not that I recollect. Storm's powers would be perfect for the traditional "blackmailing of the United Nations" cliche'.

Isn't Panther already a heel? I mean, he's got the cure for cancer and won't share. That's villian behavior in my book.



pax.
He also joined the Avengers to spy on them.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

I never read Doom 2009, but i kind of want him to pull a Magneto.

Well he'll be a "good guy" in the November issue of Fantastic Four, for better or worse.