Updating totally lame characters: smart or blasphemy?

[StoneGold]

Captain Ultra got an update. Captain Ultra. A one-note joke character. And don't try to say any different, he got rejected by the Frightful Four in his first appearance because he passed out when he sees a lit match. That's a joke character. And he dresses like a fruit cocktail.

But over in Iron Man, they toughed him up a little bit. Put him in charge of a branch of the 50 State Initiative. Put him in a new, more monochromatic costume. Had him take a swipe at Iron Man. Which raises the question, is taking joke characters seriously a good idea, or was your childhood just raped?

[Pixie_Solanas]

Captain Ultra got an update. Captain Ultra. A one-note joke character. And don't try to say any different, he got rejected by the Frightful Four in his first appearance because he passed out when he sees a lit match. That's a joke character. And he dresses like a fruit cocktail.

But over in Iron Man, they toughed him up a little bit. Put him in charge of a branch of the 50 State Initiative. Put him in a new, more monochromatic costume. Had him take a swipe at Iron Man. Which raises the question, is taking joke characters seriously a good idea, or was your childhood just raped?

Here's the point the Knaufs are making: Ultra is a joke, which is why he got shipped out to the Nebraska initiative team. I thought it was nice nod to the past to include him instead of a new character introduced specifically for the role.

[EnDwiGast]

I'm okay with it.

There comes a time when the joke is played out. I like to think of Captain Ultra as a joke who stuck with it, and while he's nowhere near prime time, he has improved his situation.

That kind of minimal character growth was overdue.

Maybe someone else can pick up the untainted original Captain Ultra legacy, and they can take the joke in an all new direction.

[StoneGold]

Here's the point the Knaufs are making: Ultra is a joke, which is why he got shipped out to the Nebraska initiative team. I thought it was nice nod to the past to include him instead of a new character introduced specifically for the role.

But they took away the one thing that made him indentifiable - his colors!

[XPac]

I don't think a good joke needs to be altered, unless they have a really good plan for him personally.

I suppose the fact that he's on team Nebraska in the first place is an indicator that the character to some degree is still viewed as a joke... but he's no longer a walking punchline.

[Monty_Cristo]

Here's the point the Knaufs are making: Ultra is a joke, which is why he got shipped out to the Nebraska initiative team. I thought it was nice nod to the past to include him instead of a new character introduced specifically for the role.

Paragon didn't seem like a joke. why was he shipped out there?

[Pixie_Solanas]

Paragon didn't seem like a joke. why was he shipped out there?

He didn't? Seemed pretty worthless in a beefcake himbo way.

[EnDwiGast]

Paragon didn't seem like a joke. why was he shipped out there?

I think we're going to find that one out in the next issue of iron Man. I'm looking forward to it.

[DaeJi]

Anyone have any scans of the new Captain Ultra?

Anyway, I'm glad that they're doing stuff with Captain Ultra. I always though he had potential.

[Monty_Cristo]

Anyone have any scans of the new Captain Ultra?


no but you should check the previews sections of this board or comicscontinuum. it's probably in there he looks really bland; similar costume but all yellow.

[PatchMadripoor]

Why update lame characters: Because a good story can be told through them, if done right.

Example (and slightly off topic): Battlestar Galactica.
70's version was cool and fun at the time, but looking bac on some stuff it's corny. New version just kicks butt!

[Monty_Cristo]

updating them is better than just killing them off because you don't know how to write them, imo.

[Dr. Chaos]

Does Bucky count?

I always get a kick out of post Winter Soldier young Bucky (see Cable & Deadpool).

[schmevil]

Anyone have any scans of the new Captain Ultra?

In issue 21 without the mask:
http://pics.livejournal.com/schmevil/pic/0002tr5s

And in issue 22, fighting Iron Man:
http://pics.livejournal.com/schmevil/pic/0002w5s2
http://pics.livejournal.com/schmevil/pic/0002x3z6
http://pics.livejournal.com/schmevil/pic/0002yepw

[G. Boney]

"Lame" is in the eye of the beholder. Why not use some of these characters that are just laying around in limbo? Both Marvel & DC have a ton of characters doing just that. A writer with imagination can tell some good stories with them.

[DaeJi]

In issue 21 without the mask:
http://pics.livejournal.com/schmevil/pic/0002tr5s

And in issue 22, fighting Iron Man:
http://pics.livejournal.com/schmevil/pic/0002w5s2
http://pics.livejournal.com/schmevil/pic/0002x3z6
http://pics.livejournal.com/schmevil/pic/0002yepw

Oh... I hate his new costume.

[The Master Meglomaniac]

Depends on the character really, Purple Man was pretty lame before Bendis made him scary and Gail simone made Cat man cool, so anything is possible.

However I don't think I would want to see an evil rapist Stilt-Man or a serious version of the Walrus. Some characters just work as jokes.

[DaeJi]

Depends on the character really, Purple Man was pretty lame before Bendis made him scary and Gail simone made Cat man cool, so anything is possible.

However I don't think I would want to see an evil rapist Stilt-Man or a serious version of the Walrus. Some characters just work as jokes.

Very, very true, as Marvel should be learning with Penance.

[G. Boney]

Very, very true, as Marvel should be learning with Penance.

Well I assume when the original poster said "updating" he didn't mean "ruining"...

[Elegance Liberty]

Hey guys, don't be hatin' on Nebraska. =(

Just because Captain Ultra is still considered to be a lame character doesn't mean my homestate is lame. Sure, we've got.... mostly agriculture and everyone here is unhealthy obssessed with gorram football every Fall season, but it's a good place to live if you want nice and quiet. Plus Downtown Omaha is one of the greatest places if you like old school industrial places.

Except for the scarily sharp rise in violence, that is.

[Madison Carter]

It can be done, and sometimes it's the right thing. Look at DC's Catman. Who would have thought three or four years ago he would have gotten the following he did? But a good writer took him and made him worth something. Still the same character, just with some care put behind him. Another current example would be the following that Rocket Raccoon is getting due to his participation in Annihilation Conquest.

[Magneto_X]

Smart if done well (re: Secret Six, Winter Soldier, Deadpool [Joe Kelly]).

If it doesn't work that's what retcons are for.

[Vegetarian Goat]

updating them is better than just killing them off because you don't know how to write them, imo.

Man, that's the truth.

[The Master Meglomaniac]

Very, very true, as Marvel should be learning with Penance.

I really think it depends on the character.

Mr. Hyde has always claimed to be pure evil, but often comes across as a goof ball, instead. He needs to be written as a threatening villain, not a goof.

However Walrus was created as a joke and using him as serious character defeats the purpose.

Now Stilt-Man was created as a serious villain, but at this point I can't take him seriously, the idea of a guy using stilts to commit crimes is too silly. It would take a minor miracle to make him into a serious villain and I think he works better as a joke. I liked the conversation Wilbur and Matt Murdock had during "Lowlife".

[DaeJi]

I really think it depends on the character.

Mr. Hyde has always claimed to be pure evil, but often comes across as a goof ball, instead. He needs to be written as a threatening villain, not a goof.

However Walrus was created as a joke and using him as serious character defeats the purpose.

Now Stilt-Man was created as a serious villain, but at this point I can't take him seriously, the idea of a guy using stilts to commit crimes is too silly. It would take a minor miracle to make him into a serious villain and I think he works better as a joke. I liked the conversation Wilbur and Matt Murdock had during "Lowlife".

Well, sometimes more goofy or joke (joke in that they are barely a threat) characters would work great as more intense, serious characters. Hyde is one of them. Shocker would be another.

But then again a lot of characters should stay joke characters, funny characters, or non-threaten characters. Like Speedball.

[XPac]

Hey guys, don't be hatin' on Nebraska. =(

Just because Captain Ultra is still considered to be a lame character doesn't mean my homestate is lame. Sure, we've got.... mostly agriculture and everyone here is unhealthy obssessed with gorram football every Fall season, but it's a good place to live if you want nice and quiet. Plus Downtown Omaha is one of the greatest places if you like old school industrial places.

Except for the scarily sharp rise in violence, that is.

I think the implication isn't that Nebraska is lame in any way... it's just that it's not a place someone would necessarily put a high profile hero. In a way, that's actually a compliment... if Nebraska is a relatively nice peaceful place to live, there's less need for a stronger hero community.

Really, 90% of the action seems to happen in a single city in the MU. The other 10 percent is scattered here and there around the world.

[The Master Meglomaniac]

Well, sometimes more goofy or joke (joke in that they are barely a threat) characters would work great as more intense, serious characters. Hyde is one of them. Shocker would be another.

But then again a lot of characters should stay joke characters, funny characters, or non-threaten characters. Like Speedball.

Well there are two ways of looking at the Penance thing, either you liked Speedball and this change is travesty to the character or you hated Speedball, but making him to emo punk has made him lamer, not cooler, so you hate him even more. Either way the change is makes people like the character less not more.

Making Speedball into an emo punk is like making Stilt-Man into an evil rapist, it misses the point completely.

[Stellar]

One word:

Nextwave.

[Expletive Deleted]

It's easier to update the pathetically lame than the endearingly lame, but, really, it all comes down to execution. Good writing can overcome pretty much anything.

[ultramandingo]

One word:

Nextwave.

...........xactly

[The Scribe]

"Lame" is in the eye of the beholder. Why not use some of these characters that are just laying around in limbo? Both Marvel & DC have a ton of characters doing just that. A writer with imagination can tell some good stories with them.

I agree, with the right writer any character can shine.

Screaming Mimi - Songbird

Thunderbolts (http://a4.vox.com/6a00c2251f4a208e1d00d41421b9bc6a47-320pih) ;)

[DaeJi]

I agree, with the right writer any character can shine.

Screaming Mimi - Songbird

Thunderbolts (http://a4.vox.com/6a00c2251f4a208e1d00d41421b9bc6a47-320pih) ;)

All a character needs to shine is a great story by a great writer. Luckly, it seems that in recent years Marvel is taking more chances with lesser known characters, allowing them to evolve and step up to the lime light. Nextwave, Loners, X-Factor, She-Hulk, Annihilation, the Initiative, etc. have all had a large cast of C and D-List heroes, and have all done wonderful things with them.

[StoneGold]

It's easier to update the pathetically lame than the endearingly lame, but, really, it all comes down to execution. Good writing can overcome pretty much anything.

I think Ultra was a little bit of both. But let's face it, most people who know who he is probably know solely from his OHOTMU entry. Apart from this, I think I've seen him used once, maybe twice in the last 20 years. And one of those was a What The?!?! appearance.

[Rahul]

It would take really(to the power infinity) good writing to make Squirrel Girl a serious character. Otherwise, leave the character where it is. She's good as a joke character.

[Shellhead]

I don't mind updating a lame character, especially since Marvel needs to tell some new stories and quit re-hashing the past. But Captain Ultra is dressed kind of like a flamboyant fireman now, which is a mistake given his specific weakness to fire. And why has he aged in real time, unlike Tony Stark or pretty much any other Marvel character? And why did he fold so easy in this fight? Captain Ultra was really strong and could fly in his first appearance. He was like a sketchy version of Superman.

[Alan2099]

Making a character that's a fun joke into a straight serious character makes about as much sense as taking the Punisher and turning him into a humor character.

Why change the basics? Not everybody can be "cool" and not everybody should be.

Now there are certain character that are just lame and not ina fun way. Screaming Mimi was one of them. They updated her into a rather cool character.
On the flipside, the original Kangaroo was a lame (not fun) character, and when they made a new Kanagaroo, they went all out with the humor aspect of him.

[Nyssane]

I agree, with the right writer any character can shine.

Screaming Mimi - Songbird

Thunderbolts (http://a4.vox.com/6a00c2251f4a208e1d00d41421b9bc6a47-320pih) ;)

I wonder if they can make Poundcakes awesome.

[schmevil]

And why has he aged in real time, unlike Tony Stark or pretty much any other Marvel character? And why did he fold so easy in this fight? Captain Ultra was really strong and could fly in his first appearance. He was like a sketchy version of Superman.

Captain Ultra has been off panel, ergo he aged, unlike characters who have been consistently on panel. ;-)

Honestly I think they needed an older, established hero to go up against Iron Man in these issues, and decided to use Ultra because he was available and no one was doing anything with him. In a way, Ultra the property is the same as Ultra the character in this book - he's this dusty old relic, bit of a joke, who's being given another chance because of the Initiative.

He loses to IM because a) it's IM's book ;-); b) the story needed him to lose; c) he's a 'washed up has-been'. He *had* to lose.

[Zero Hunter]

Any character can be written good with a good writer and a good idea. I mean for gods sake DC was able to turn the Calcualter into a cool character. The Calculator for gods sake!! That write there shows no characters is trully a lost cause (except maybe super plot device man the Sentry ;) )

[Elegance Liberty]

Any character can be written good with a good writer and a good idea.

QFT.

While there are some characters I honestly dislike, I think every character has the opportunity to become a good -and by 'good', I mean a well-rounded/fleshed out character, regardless of good/bad alignment- character in some capacity or another. It just takes a writer who has an understanding of the character's 'core concept' and the willingness to move forward in development, but while still staying true to the character's personality.

[Magneto_X]

One word:

Nextwave.

It's to bad Marvel made that official continuity. It works better not being canon.

Machine Man is a great character who never lived up to his potential, IMO.

This doesn't mean I don't like the NW Aaron Stack but I don't see him as the real deal.

[Magneto_X]

I don't mind updating a lame character, especially since Marvel needs to tell some new stories and quit re-hashing the past. But Captain Ultra is dressed kind of like a flamboyant fireman now, which is a mistake given his specific weakness to fire. And why has he aged in real time, unlike Tony Stark or pretty much any other Marvel character? And why did he fold so easy in this fight? Captain Ultra was really strong and could fly in his first appearance. He was like a sketchy version of Superman.

It's best not to look to closely at character ages in super-hero comics or you'll realise some characters age more then others and/or their timelines don't match up (i.e. Batman and Nightwing).

[Eumenides]

Here's the point the Knaufs are making: Ultra is a joke, which is why he got shipped out to the Nebraska initiative team.

Stupid character... ice... forgetable team... looks like a Justice League Antartic homage to me.

[bulbasteve]

He loses to IM because a) it's IM's book ;-); b) the story needed him to lose; c) he's a 'washed up has-been'. He *had* to lose.

Tony actually did some crazy density increasing stuff before he was punched, so it looks like if he didn't ultra could have punched his freakin head off judging by the type of damage he did.

[Brother Zag]

One word:

Nextwave.

QFT!

And also...

Two words: Seven Soldiers

Three more words: Agents of Atlas

As it's been said, it's all in the execution, what you do with them, the stories you tell and the art that conveys them.

[Croxx]

I don't mind updating a lame character, especially since Marvel needs to tell some new stories and quit re-hashing the past. But Captain Ultra is dressed kind of like a flamboyant fireman now, which is a mistake given his specific weakness to fire. And why has he aged in real time, unlike Tony Stark or pretty much any other Marvel character? And why did he fold so easy in this fight? Captain Ultra was really strong and could fly in his first appearance. He was like a sketchy version of Superman.

Just as an aisde, I think the recent issue of She-Hulk indicated Doc Samson cured him of his weakness to fire and that all of his appearances to the contrary were actually other alternate earth people who took on his appearance.

[Croxx]

Sorry.....

[bulbasteve]

clearly updating lame characters leads to an explosion in double posts....stop writers, you are killing us here!

[bulbasteve]

QFT!

And also...

Two words: Seven Soldiers

Three more words: Agents of Atlas

As it's been said, it's all in the execution, what you do with them, the stories you tell and the art that conveys them.


No...no! Nextwave is the example for ruining characters!

Poor poor X-51 :(

[Croxx]

Sorry.....

[Gaastra]

Which heroes are on the Nebraska team anyway?

Captain ultra should be able to beat iron man in one page.

Without his fire weakness the guy should be unbeatable.

I never understold why he was a gag hero.

I would like to see the prowler updated into a new book.

[Stellar]

No...no! Nextwave is the example for ruining characters!

Poor poor X-51 :(

X-51 wasn't that great of a character to begin with. Even the Celestials thought so.

[mastaflan]

I'm all for making d-listers into a-listers. I approve of Captain Ultras new found role. His Costume could have been updated with a little more love but maybe I just need to get used to the yellow outfit.

[Shonuff]

Captain Ultra should always and forever be a huge joke, he's basically a parody of Superman.

[Capt USA]

Which heroes are on the Nebraska team anyway?

Captain ultra should be able to beat iron man in one page.

Without his fire weakness the guy should be unbeatable.

I never understold why he was a gag hero.



He was always intended to be a joke hero, he was designed as a guy with great power but little to no motivation, to show that there is more to a hero than power. But there is nothing wrong with taking a gag hero and making him into a good hero, of course it would help if they actually approached why he was a gag hero and worked from there to shape him into a hero or even flesh out the gag if that is what they want to go for.

[Capt USA]

Captain Ultra should always and forever be a huge joke, he's basically a parody of Superman.

I thought with the fire weakness he was supposed to be a parody of martian manhunter.

[Capt USA]

All a character needs to shine is a great story by a great writer. Luckly, it seems that in recent years Marvel is taking more chances with lesser known characters, allowing them to evolve and step up to the lime light. Nextwave, Loners, X-Factor, She-Hulk, Annihilation, the Initiative, etc. have all had a large cast of C and D-List heroes, and have all done wonderful things with them.

and that is the major difference between marvel and dc, if dc can't make a b-list, c- or d-list character work, instead of putting a better writer on board, they kill off the character and create an all new one.

[Capt USA]

It can be done, and sometimes it's the right thing. Look at DC's Catman. Who would have thought three or four years ago he would have gotten the following he did? But a good writer took him and made him worth something. Still the same character, just with some care put behind him. Another current example would be the following that Rocket Raccoon is getting due to his participation in Annihilation Conquest.

rocket raccoon was always awesome, just not awesome enough to carry a series for an extended run.

[Capt USA]

Well there are two ways of looking at the Penance thing, either you liked Speedball and this change is travesty to the character or you hated Speedball, but making him to emo punk has made him lamer, not cooler, so you hate him even more. Either way the change is makes people like the character less not more.

Making Speedball into an emo punk is like making Stilt-Man into an evil rapist, it misses the point completely.

well the penance series has good writing so far, and speedball, when written even as penance has been actually quite a good character, even if the turn is ridiculous, and the fact that they did ruin a good character who should have never been turned into a joke character. (he was a 'fun' character in the vein of spiderman, not a frog-man lame character presented for comic relief.)

I actually like Penance, but I don't think there is anything resembling baldwin left in the character.

[The Master Meglomaniac]

well the penance series has good writing so far, and speedball, .

That's debatable, to me Penance seems like a lame hold over from the 90s, a representation of the worse excesses from that decade.

[Capt USA]

That's debatable, to me Penance seems like a lame hold over from the 90s, a representation of the worse excesses from that decade.

Are you reading the series or just making a snap judgement based upon it's look? I mean if it was a lame holdover, it would be basically written as a typical punisher or wolverine book. As the book is going now they are pushing a mystery(what is up with the numbers?) they are using a third person viewpoint(the waitress) to kinda show how baldwin may look to some of the world, they have already nabbed osborn as a good villain. There seems to be a lot going on in this book, artwork is quite good, and baldwin isn't just anywhere near as boring as the original idea sound as if it would be.

[Alan2099]

Thunderbolts is an intresting series in the fact that everyone elese comes off looking better than the main "heroes".

Although what they did with Speedball is still pretty stupid.

And if they made all the lame characters cool, who would be used for the comedy relief?

[G. Boney]

rocket raccoon was always awesome, just not awesome enough to carry a series for an extended run.

Indeed


http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r69/Rocksp/Avatars/rocketracoon.gif

[Deadpooligan]

I think updating lame characters is a great idea.

I mean, just look at Foolkiller and Terror Inc.! They've each got a MAX Series which is totally awesome. (Terror has one, anyway. Foolkiller's one ain't out yet.)

Can you imagine a MAX revamp of any of Spider-Man's rogues? Mysterio? Or Arcade? Or Sin-Eater?

I'd buy 'em in a heartbeat.

[Liberty Belle Fan]

I don't think I'd go as far as to call updating a lame character blasphemy. The one thing I will comment on, however, holds true to lame and non-lame characters alike - in the hands of a good writer it can be done in an amazing way that the fans and collectors will enjoy.

[The Master Meglomaniac]

Are you reading the series or just making a snap judgement based upon it's look? I mean if it was a lame holdover, it would be basically written as a typical punisher or wolverine book. As the book is going now they are pushing a mystery(what is up with the numbers?) they are using a third person viewpoint(the waitress) to kinda show how baldwin may look to some of the world, they have already nabbed osborn as a good villain. There seems to be a lot going on in this book, artwork is quite good, and baldwin isn't just anywhere near as boring as the original idea sound as if it would be.

I am basing my judgment on the fact that I hate the concept, its so 90s. Having a costume with 600 spikes in it is stupid, you would die from loss of blood in no time. Haven't we moved on from the 90s and left behind characters who angst all the time?

[G. Boney]

Angst started in the 90's:eek: ?

(And here I thought Spider-man was created in the 60's...)

[Alan2099]

Can you imagine a MAX revamp of any of Spider-Man's rogues? Mysterio? Or Arcade? Or Sin-Eater?
You and I have vastly different definitions of "lame".

[zhivago]

There are no lame characters, just lame writers. Positive example: Agents of Atlas

[Pixie_Solanas]

Thunderbolts is an intresting series in the fact that everyone elese comes off looking better than the main "heroes".

Although what they did with Speedball is still pretty stupid.





What's so stupid about it? To me, they turned a completely uninteresting character into something interesting. Works for me.

[Pixie_Solanas]

There are no lame characters, just lame writers. Positive example: Agents of Atlas

Succinct summation. Good post.

[Alan2099]

What's so stupid about it? To me, they turned a completely uninteresting character into something interesting. Works for me.

And to me they turned a perfectly intresting character into something completley worthless.

The fact that Pennance was Speedball is practically a footnote. As Pennance he's got a different apperance, different powerds, different personality, different supporting cast, different team, and for all intents and purposes a different origin.

He's a different character, so why not make a new character that's Pennance. He could have been the hometown's hero or something, show him for an issue or two to show what he used to be like, then you're fine. You don't get the feedback of "You ruined my favorite character (and yes EVERY character is somebody's favorite, even Zarko the flying squid)". This way, you still have Speedball for people that like fun humor characters and Pennance for people that like emo freaks into self mutilation.

[Deadpooligan]

You and I have vastly different definitions of "lame".

It's not so much that they're "lame", but that they're neither used to their full potential nor are they taken very seriously today.

C'mon, you're telling me you wouldn't read Mysterio: MAX?

[Capt USA]

I am basing my judgment on the fact that I hate the concept, its so 90s. Having a costume with 600 spikes in it is stupid, you would die from loss of blood in no time. Haven't we moved on from the 90s and left behind characters who angst all the time?

agreed about the costume, (not sure about the angst thing, since different versions of angst has been the norm since--as mentioned, spidey started)

I didn't think I would like penance partially for the reason you mentioned, but as also mentioned on this thread, good writing can help any story. Just as bad writing could turn a good character into garbage. Penance is a crappy concept, is a complete and utter ruination of a good character (speedball was marvels attempt at spiderman in the 90's, having a youngster trying to cope with his powers while trying to have a normal life, had a lot of good potential, a really cool power in my opinion--goofy yes, but cool visually and useful)


I separate Penance from Speedball since there is absolutely zero remaining of the character (it's kinda like reading a millar written captain america or a green arrow in identity crisis) I just think of penance as a guy who I've never read before who had a major accident that caused the life of some innocents and he feels the need to feel for the victims.

[Capt USA]

It's not so much that they're "lame", but that they're neither used to their full potential nor are they taken very seriously today.

C'mon, you're telling me you wouldn't read Mysterio: MAX?

I wouldn't even read a captain america max, a good writer should be able to evoke images without resorting to weak cussing and gore. If I wan't crap level of writing I would just read an image comic from the 90's. (ooh authority.....wow, lets write a book that involves nobody remotely heroic...thats original.)

[Alan2099]

I don't read max books. I read a couple just to see what the fuss was all about and they all came across like they were trying far too hard.

[The Master Meglomaniac]

agreed about the costume, (not sure about the angst thing, since different versions of angst has been the norm since--as mentioned, spidey started)

I didn't think I would like penance partially for the reason you mentioned, but as also mentioned on this thread, good writing can help any story. Just as bad writing could turn a good character into garbage. Penance is a crappy concept, is a complete and utter ruination of a good character (speedball was marvels attempt at spiderman in the 90's, having a youngster trying to cope with his powers while trying to have a normal life, had a lot of good potential, a really cool power in my opinion--goofy yes, but cool visually and useful)


I separate Penance from Speedball since there is absolutely zero remaining of the character (it's kinda like reading a millar written captain america or a green arrow in identity crisis) I just think of penance as a guy who I've never read before who had a major accident that caused the life of some innocents and he feels the need to feel for the victims.

Dude, the spike costume itself is supremely angsty.

"I must pay for my crimes by wearing a costume that stabs me all the time." He is like an emo kid who cuts himself. Sometimes you can hate something on a conceptual level and it doesn't how "well" its written, because it is a bad concept. If Stilt-Man became a rapist, that would be a bad concept no matter what. That's Penance is, a bad concept.

Angst started in the 90's:eek: ?

(And here I thought Spider-man was created in the 60's...)

It didn't start the 90s, but it became overdone and sallow in the 90s. Remember that "I am the Spider" non sense in the 90s Spidey titles? Or Peter hitting MJ? Did anything like that happen in the 60s?

[Brother Zag]

Dude, the spike costume itself is supremely angsty. "I must pay for my crimes by wearing a costume that stabs me all the time."

Little known fact: Penance's costume has a built-in iPod that almost constantly plays Iron Maiden full blast in his ears...



...When it's not playing THE CARPENTERS to really torture him!

[Brother Zag]

or double-posting to really annoy him!

grmble grmblgrrrr

[Mister Mets]

Captain Ultra got an update. Captain Ultra. A one-note joke character. And don't try to say any different, he got rejected by the Frightful Four in his first appearance because he passed out when he sees a lit match. That's a joke character. And he dresses like a fruit cocktail.

But over in Iron Man, they toughed him up a little bit. Put him in charge of a branch of the 50 State Initiative. Put him in a new, more monochromatic costume. Had him take a swipe at Iron Man. Which raises the question, is taking joke characters seriously a good idea, or was your childhood just raped?
From what you're saying, the character was meant to be lame, so nah, he shouldn't be taken seriously.

It is okay to show someone who was initially supposed to be taken seriously but isn't (the Trapster) as a threat.

[Will.S]

The fact that Captain Ultra is even being used is cool, on top of being in conjunction with the 50 States Initiative. I know he's a joke character and all but it's also nice to see that they can make someone take him seriously if even for just one storyline.

[The Master Meglomaniac]

From what you're saying, the character was meant to be lame, so nah, he shouldn't be taken seriously.

It is okay to show someone who was initially supposed to be taken seriously but isn't (the Trapster) as a threat.

Yeah but sometimes if character was created as a serious character still works better as a joke character. I can't imagine a serious Stilt-Man.

Anyway Trapster has a few strikes against him, in regards to being a serious character. first they never explanined why he didn't just market his glue and become a millionaire and the whole "Paste Pot Pete" thing. He would need a major revamp to be serious. If they didn't already ruin the Ultimate Universe, I would have suggested that ultimate Trapster be a character similar to the jigsaw killer, a sadist obsessed with death traps.

[Magneto_X]

(ooh authority.....wow, lets write a book that involves nobody remotely heroic...thats original.)

Any good writer can make a series like that work.

Ultimates, Authority & Ellis' StormWatch worked.

But you've got to understand in some series you're not supposed to like the protagonists. Ellis has stated in interviews that the Authorty were always *bad guys* while Millar's Ultimates is similar (especially with certain characters like Hank Pym and possibly Bruce Banner).

Master:

It is possible for Trapster to be a serious threat. Read Claremont's FF #10 and the issue where he teamed up with Shocker to kill Spiderman.

[The Master Meglomaniac]

Any good writer can make a series like that work.

Ultimates, Authority & Ellis' StormWatch worked.

But you've got to understand in some series you're not supposed to like the protagonists. Ellis has stated in interviews that the Authorty were always *bad guys* while Millar's Ultimates is similar (especially with certain characters like Hank Pym and possibly Bruce Banner).

Master:

It is possible for Trapster to be a serious threat. Read Claremont's FF #10 and the issue where he teamed up with Shocker to kill Spiderman.

I heard of that story. The problem is the Trapster doesn't make any sense. They never explained why he became a criminal in the first place and why didn't try to market his glue. I will find it hard to take him seriously if he doesn't get a better motive.

[Monty_Cristo]

I heard of that story. The problem is the Trapster doesn't make any sense. They never explained why he became a criminal in the first place and why didn't try to market his glue. I will find it hard to take him seriously if he doesn't get a better motive.

he makes perfect sense. he's the Wizard's lackey. the man tried to kill him and he still rejoined the Frightful Four. Pete's problem isn't his lack of intelligence. it's his lack of identity.

[The Master Meglomaniac]

he makes perfect sense. he's the Wizard's lackey. the man tried to kill him and he still rejoined the Frightful Four. Pete's problem isn't his lack of intelligence. it's his lack of identity.

That doesn't explain why he didn't just market his glue and become a millionaire in the first place. He didn't meet the Wizard until after he was a criminal.

[Monty_Cristo]

That doesn't explain why he didn't just market his glue and become a millionaire in the first place. He didn't meet the Wizard until after he was a criminal.

maybe he's not much of a salesman. maybe he turned to crime out of some sense of revenge and is just an extremely petty/short-sighted individual. hence, him needing the Wizard to tell him what to do. Arthur Parks made a discovery that impressed Tony Stark. what did he do with it? he used it to become a super-villain and impress a girl who left him for a richer/more successful guy. if you look at in real world perspective, Paris Hilton (a professional partier) definately gets more press than the guy who invented a powerful new adhesive. maybe supervillainy gives Pete the attention he wants. being a rich bald glue baron might not be appealing to him.

[The Master Meglomaniac]

maybe he's not much of a salesman. maybe he turned to crime out of some sense of revenge and is just an extremely petty/short-sighted individual. hence, him needing the Wizard to tell him what to do. Arthur Parks made a discovery that impressed Tony Stark. what did he do with it? he used it to become a super-villain and impress a girl who left him for a richer/more successful guy. if you look at in real world perspective, Paris Hilton (a professional partier) definately gets more press than the guy who invented a powerful new adhesive. maybe supervillainy gives Pete the attention he wants. being a rich bald glue baron might not be appealing to him.

Arthur Parks was clearly deranged and had a stalking problem, it made some sense for him to become a villain, he was talking to his lasers like they were his friends or something, not exactly the picture of mental health.

With Trapster it made no sense, he has no major mental problems, if someone screwed out of the patent then I could understand why he is criminal, but it stands now he invented a marketable product and became a criminal for no good reason. Why would Trapster prefer to be a failed criminal who is hated by everyone (both Norman Osborn and Wizard have tried kill him) and end up being some bad man's boyfriend in prison, instead of being a millionaire, hanging out in beach with a trophy wife. Is he a masochist?

He could have just sold his glue to company instead of it for crime, if the company screwed him, then he would have a reason to a criminal, otherwise he doesn't. I bet the guy who invented post-it notes never thought of becoming a criminal. If they could give a good him a good reason why he didn't market his glue, I could buy him as a serious villain.

[Monty_Cristo]

Arthur Parks was clearly deranged and had a stalking problem, it made some sense for him to become a villain, he was talking to his lasers like they were his friends or something, not exactly the picture of mental health.

you call it being deranged. some might call it being socially anxious. the woman he was in love with was a cold gold-digging uber &*$%#. i repeat, she rejected Arthur for someone more successfull because that individual was more successful. this was one of Janet Van Dyne's haute taute (sp?) friends. how could Arthur not feel inept around someone two classes above him? yeah, he took the rejection bad but who doesn't have a friend like that? as for talking to his lasers, i know people who name their cars. the guy was clearly just lonely and burdened with an inferiority complex. otherwise, he's not that much different from Henry Pym. heck, they even had the same obsession. if Janet had returned Arthur's advances, maybe she'd be getting beaten around by him instead of Hank.


With Trapster it made no sense, he has no major mental problems, if someone screwed out of the patent then I could understand why he is criminal, but it stands now he invented a marketable product and became a criminal for no good reason. Why would Trapster prefer to be a failed criminal who is hated by everyone (both Norman Osborn and Wizard have tried kill him) and end up being some bad man's boyfriend in prison, instead of being a millionaire, hanging out in beach with a trophy wife. Is he a masochist?

He could have just sold his glue to company instead of it for crime, if the company screwed him, then he would have a reason to a criminal, otherwise he doesn't. I bet the guy who invented post-it notes never thought of becoming a criminal. If they could give a good him a good reason why he didn't market his glue, I could buy him as a serious villain.


maybe he has a homosexual attraction to Wizard. i've never seen Peter with a woman. maybe he has a small wang. what does it really matter? he chose to be a costumed villain. maybe that's his thing. it's not like Hydro-Man has a reason to rob people. he's practically immortal. :)

p.s. don't take him as a serious villain. he's not one. he's a blue-collar stooge; not a mastermind.

[Nyssane]

I like that they take lame characters and update them, even if they update them in a lame way. Because sometimes lame can be good. Look at the Great Lakes Avengers: there's no question that they're lame, but because of their mini-series and one-shots, they've turned into in-depth, interesting characters despite their sillyness.

[The Master Meglomaniac]

you call it being deranged. some might call it being socially anxious. the woman he was in love with was a cold gold-digging uber &*$%#. i repeat, she rejected Arthur for someone more successfull because that individual was more successful. this was one of Janet Van Dyne's haute taute (sp?) friends. how could Arthur not feel inept around someone two classes above him? yeah, he took the rejection bad but who doesn't have a friend like that? as for talking to his lasers, i know people who name their cars. the guy was clearly just lonely and burdened with an inferiority complex. otherwise, he's not that much different from Henry Pym. heck, they even had the same obsession. if Janet had returned Arthur's advances, maybe she'd be getting beaten around by him instead of Hank.


Lets look at the quote from Mr. Parks, shall we:

The ways of women are a mystery to me! But, not so my newly developed laser cannon! Her I invented...constructed with my own hands! I, and I alone, understand her intricate mechanisms...her senses-staggering power!"

The guy relates to weapons better than he relates to women, I think he was this close to giving them female nicknames. This guy clearly has sever mental problems and was likely a time bomb. If it wasn't this, something else would have set him off. I'm not surprised this guy became a villain. Comparing him to Hank isn't helping, considering Hank is basket case as well.




maybe he has a homosexual attraction to Wizard. i've never seen Peter with a woman. maybe he has a small wang. what does it really matter? he chose to be a costumed villain. maybe that's his thing. it's not like Hydro-Man has a reason to rob people. he's practically immortal. :)

p.s. don't take him as a serious villain. he's not one. he's a blue-collar stooge; not a mastermind.

Well that and Hydroman is a idiot.

Heck making Trapster gay might actually besomething close to character development, it would better then the "Ha, ha, I'm evil for no real reason", because that just fly nowadays. That's why people think he is lame, no one can give a good answer as to why he is a criminal in the first place.

[Monty_Cristo]

Lets look at the quote from Mr. Parks, shall we:

The ways of women are a mystery to me! But, not so my newly developed laser cannon! Her I invented...constructed with my own hands! I, and I alone, understand her intricate mechanisms...her senses-staggering power!"

The guy relates to weapons better than he relates to women, I think he was this close to giving them female nicknames. This guy clearly has sever mental problems and was likely a time bomb. If it wasn't this, something else would have set him off. I'm not surprised this guy became a villain. Comparing him to Hank isn't helping, considering Hank is basket case as well.

it still comes down to him being bad with women. you don't have to be a nutcase to not understand women. they have books on the subject and i'm still confused. and so what if he refered to a laser as 'she?' he's just really proud of his invention. it's natural for humans to give these traits to things that are important to them. haven't you ever heard someone refer to something as "their baby?" same thing. :)


Heck making Trapster gay might actually besomething close to character development, it would better then the "Ha, ha, I'm evil for no real reason", because that just fly nowadays. That's why people think he is lame, no one can give a good answer as to why he is a criminal in the first place.


he's a craftsman. he's obsessed with designing an unbeatable trap. at least that's the motive he gave when he took the job of catching Reed Richards. he wants to create the perfect trap much like Arcade wants to create bigger and badder murderworlds. creating the ultimate trap isn't something you can really do legally. who would you test it on? so he's turned to crime where his creativity has been given an outlet. Wizard encourages him to develop his super paste and snares. it has nothing to do with evil. it's "art." but, yeah, i really do think Pete is a closet case. personality-wise, i bet he's a lot like the gay sadist guy from 'The Punisher.'

[The Master Meglomaniac]

it still comes down to him being bad with women. you don't have to be a nutcase to not understand women. they have books on the subject and i'm still confused. and so what if he refered to a laser as 'she?' he's just really proud of his invention. it's natural for humans to give these traits to things that are important to them. haven't you ever heard someone refer to something as "their baby?" same thing. :)

Yeah well many serial killers had issues with women as well, the Son of sam had sexual frustration issues. Parks put Wasp in a jar and tried to convinnce her to marry him, that's not normal. This guy is a nutter.


he's a craftsman. he's obsessed with designing an unbeatable trap. at least that's the motive he gave when he took the job of catching Reed Richards. he wants to create the perfect trap much like Arcade wants to create bigger and badder murderworlds. creating the ultimate trap isn't something you can really do legally. who would you test it on? so he's turned to crime where his creativity has been given an outlet. Wizard encourages him to develop his super paste and snares. it has nothing to do with evil. it's "art." but, yeah, i really do think Pete is a closet case. personality-wise, i bet he's a lot like the gay sadist guy from 'The Punisher.'

If that's his motive, then why did he spend all those years trying to rob banks with a glue gun? He is not very consistent. If deathtraps are his M.O why does he still have the glue gun? Arcade had murderworld as his M.O from day one and has established as insane from day one (he did murder his father). They never established that Trapster was nuts, just greedy, so this obession seems a bit tacked on and him taking on Reed richards is just sad, Reed is way out of his league. he needs to be more consistant and take on foes he has a chance of winning against. Also making gay and establishing he has feelings for the Wizard might give him some needed character development, they should just out and out say it.

[Monty_Cristo]

Yeah well many serial killers had issues with women as well, the Son of sam had sexual frustration issues. Parks put Wasp in a jar and tried to convinnce her to marry him, that's not normal. This guy is a nutter.

Pym put a gun to her head and tried to convince her to marry him. and Jan let Pym shrink-pleasure her before telling him that she would never marry him. their all nutters.

If that's his motive, then why did he spend all those years trying to rob banks with a glue gun?

for quick money to purchase more glue gun materials.

He is not very consistent. If deathtraps are his M.O why does he still have the glue gun?

because artists like to draw it.

Arcade had murderworld as his M.O from day one and has established as insane from day one (he did murder his father).

doesn't make him insane. it makes him greedy.

They never established that Trapster was nuts, just greedy, so this obession seems a bit tacked on and him taking on Reed richards is just sad, Reed is way out of his league.

he successfully captured Reed. and i'd say that dressing up in costume and continually rejoining a failing villain team is nuts.

he needs to be more consistant and take on foes he has a chance of winning against.

who would that be?

Also making gay and establishing he has feelings for the Wizard might give him some needed character development, they should just out and out say it.

but it's so much funnier when he's just closet gay; oggling Wizard's phallic helmet in the background.

[Magneto_X]

Yeah well many serial killers had issues with women as well, the Son of sam had sexual frustration issues. Parks put Wasp in a jar and tried to convinnce her to marry him, that's not normal. This guy is a nutter.

All the heroes and villains in super-hero comics are crazy. Some are just crazier then others.

If that's his motive, then why did he spend all those years trying to rob banks with a glue gun? He is not very consistent. If deathtraps are his M.O why does he still have the glue gun? Arcade had murderworld as his M.O from day one and has established as insane from day one (he did murder his father). They never established that Trapster was nuts, just greedy, so this obession seems a bit tacked on and him taking on Reed richards is just sad, Reed is way out of his league. he needs to be more consistant and take on foes he has a chance of winning against. Also making gay and establishing he has feelings for the Wizard might give him some needed character development, they should just out and out say it.

He most likely keeps it around for a weapon to use if he gets in physical combat. In some cases it's even more useful then a gun. He beat *Reed Richards* with it once.

Quite a feat for a Z-lister. Even an unprepped Reed is a major headache in a fight.

[Alan2099]

Trapster has always struck me as a bully with delsuions of being an artist. Of course that doesn't make him any less lame, and I mean lame as in the way a chess club geek is lame, not lame as-in Typeface lame.

Trapster is the little guy that's always got picked on and so he started to develop traps and claimed to be into the art of it, when he really just wants an excuse to beat people.

Interpretations and mileage may vary.

[The Master Meglomaniac]

Pym put a gun to her head and tried to convince her to marry him. and Jan let Pym shrink-pleasure her before telling him that she would never marry him. their all nutters.

Comparing Parks to Pym isn't making Parks look any saner. :)



for quick money to purchase more glue gun materials.

I guess your kidding right. Why not ditch the glue gun altogether, death traps are a much cooler gimmicks. Him trapping innocent non super hero people in death traps seems scary then robbing a bank with a glue gun.



because artists like to draw it.
Most "artists" don't get beat up and end up sharing a cell with "Bubbha the love sponge. What's his motive, greed, sadism or something else. What is his goal as a villain? Why did he choose to be a villain. Heck does he have any family. Would they be ashamed or something?

To make Trapster a serious villain, one has to ask, what kind of villain is he? Is he just a greedy villain, who is not interested bloodshed, just profit? Is he an evil and sadistic villain, who likes money, but enjoys inflicting pain even more? Does he have any moral standards, lines he won't cross or is he totally immoral? Would he try to use his death traps on civilians for bait or just for kicks?


doesn't make him insane. it makes him greedy.

Murderworld doesn't make any money and the fee Arcade charges is a token one. With Arcade its all about sadism. That's always been his motive, he is already wealthy, he never needed any more money.



he successfully captured Reed. and i'd say that dressing up in costume and continually rejoining a failing villain team is nuts.

Reed is one the smartest guys in the world, Trapster should be like retarded chimp compared to him. That sounds like plot induced stupidity on Reed's part.



who would that be?

Street level guys, Spidey DD, Moon Knight, etc. Not one of the smartest guys in the universe.



but it's so much funnier when he's just closet gay; oggling Wizard's phallic helmet in the background.

I would rather have character development than a cheap gag.

He most likely keeps it around for a weapon to use if he gets in physical combat. In some cases it's even more useful then a gun. He beat *Reed Richards* with it once.

Quite a feat for a Z-lister. Even an unprepped Reed is a major headache in a fight.

How did Trapster tag Reed with that thing because it seems like PIS to me. Trapster should pick on guys less powerful then the FF, they are out of his league.

Trapster has always struck me as a bully with delsuions of being an artist. Of course that doesn't make him any less lame, and I mean lame as in the way a chess club geek is lame, not lame as-in Typeface lame.

Trapster is the little guy that's always got picked on and so he started to develop traps and claimed to be into the art of it, when he really just wants an excuse to beat people.

Interpretations and mileage may vary.

Hmm, so he is a sadist? I still he needs character development to make into something rather than a joke villain (if you want to see him as serious villain). Why did he become a villain, instead of getting rich, why does stick with it despite the fact he is not very good at being a criminal. Maybe even flesh out his backstory so we have something deeper than "I invented new super glue and now I will be a criminal, ha, ha, ha!

[Dagger]

I'd love to see Joe Kelly take over writing Iron Man and re-developing his old Rogue's gallery, like he did with the Ghost in that mini he did a few years ago. Especially the Unicorn. I'd love for someone to re-imagine him.

I'd really like to have someone make Paste-Pot Pete into a psycho who thought of his crimes as works of art. It'd actually add something to him, imo.

[StoneGold]

I'd love to see Joe Kelly take over writing Iron Man and re-developing his old Rogue's gallery, like he did with the Ghost in that mini he did a few years ago. Especially the Unicorn. I'd love for someone to re-imagine him.

I'd really like to have someone make Paste-Pot Pete into a psycho who thought of his crimes as works of art. It'd actually add something to him, imo.

Yeah, but Ghost never sucked. In fact, I kind if like the original costume better. The second one looked a little too... Metal Gear Solid ninja-ish. Spy Master never sucked, either. OK, his super nunchuck shtick was maybe a little out of date these days, but f'n a if it didn't look awesome way back when.

[Babylon23]

first they never explanined why he didn't just market his glue and become a millionaire and the whole "Paste Pot Pete" thing.

Really, this could sum up a large percentage of supervillains. All those guys in suits of armour or carrying fantastic weapons or devices that decide to turn to crime. Why didn't they patent them and sell them to the military?

I just accept it as part of the tenets of comic books, in much the same way I accept radioactive spiders and flying men.

As for the topic at hand, I much prefer writers to revamp lame characters and make them something interesting. It doesn't always work, but sometimes you get something like Suicide Squad, Agents of Atlas, 7 Soldiers, Animal Man, etc.

As many have said already, any character can shine in the hands of a good writer.

[Young Avenger]

I'd love to see Joe Kelly take over writing Iron Man and re-developing his old Rogue's gallery, like he did with the Ghost in that mini he did a few years ago. Especially the Unicorn. I'd love for someone to re-imagine him.

That mini was written by Joe Casey.

[The Master Meglomaniac]

Really, this could sum up a large percentage of supervillains. All those guys in suits of armour or carrying fantastic weapons or devices that decide to turn to crime. Why didn't they patent them and sell them to the military?

I just accept it as part of the tenets of comic books, in much the same way I accept radioactive spiders and flying men.

.

They do give motives for other villains, some villains are insane or psychopathic, some villains are just idiots who got lucky and are criminals because they are not bright, some villains are thril seekers and think it is fun to be a criminal, some villains have an ideological agenda and other villains have suffered tragic events in their life which doesn't allow them to live normal lifes. there are a ton of good motives out there, so with characters like Trapster and Stilt-Man, who have no motive, it just comes off as lazy.

[shades of eternity]

i believe in repackaging characters, for it often gives people 2nd chances that would otherwise be wasted (two best examples in recent history are the thunderbolts and dc's secret six).

As for actual repackaging, I've always believed that both Gideon and Circuit Breaker would make awesome Iron Man villans if properly tweaked. I've done my rants in the past on this, but they both touch a nerve of the iron man psyche that would seriously rock.