The following are hit by Cap's shield...

[chilled monkey]

Captain America throws his shield full-force at the following. What happens to them when it hits?

2 scenerios in each case:

1- Straightforward throw.
2- Cap bounces the shield off of something to hit them in an unexpected angle.

In both cases, no-one is able to dodge/intercept the shield. This is a durability test.

Sailor Galaxia (anime)
Superman (animated series version- Pre Justice League)
Superman (comics version)
He-man (2003 version)
Megatron (G1)
Megatron (Beast Wars)
A Mighty Morphin Power Ranger (any of the core 5, I think their durability is the same)
Green Ranger (evil)
Thing
Darkseid (comics)
Darkseid (animated)

[Nik Hasta]

The sheild itself is more than tough enough to damage pretty much anyone on that list.

Trouble is Captain America can't apply enough force a thrown sheild to damage them with it.

[Jmacq1]

Yeah, that about sums it up. A few of the folks I don't know enough about to say, but at most of the folks on the list, the Shield is just going to bounce off of them. Might distract them for a second depending on where it hits, but that's about the best they can hope for without a Korvac-style "somehow he hurt me even though he shouldn't be capable of it" sort of PIS/Jobbery involved.

[chilled monkey]

I wouldn't be too sure about that. Cap has hurt the Hulk with shield throws before. Plus one time he KO'ed the Captive (who could survive inside a star), and that was when Cap was weakened.

[Jmacq1]

I wouldn't be too sure about that. Cap has hurt the Hulk with shield throws before. Plus one time he KO'ed the Captive (who could survive inside a star), and that was when Cap was weakened.

That's called PIS...or Jobbery.

The bottom line is that even a "maximum possible peak human" is not going to be able to throw a 12-pound disc hard enough to physically hurt these characters. Particularly given that the Shield absorbs much of the physical force of impacts (Funny how that protects Cap from being swatted around all over the place and crushed under the force of superhuman blows, but seems conveniently ignored when the shield hits other people).

[Slade]

That's called PIS...or Jobbery.

The bottom line is that even a "maximum possible peak human" is not going to be able to throw a 12-pound disc hard enough to physically hurt these characters. Particularly given that the Shield absorbs much of the physical force of impacts (Funny how that protects Cap from being swatted around all over the place and crushed under the force of superhuman blows, but seems conveniently ignored when the shield hits other people).

I've always wondered that too.

[Black Atom]

That's called PIS...or Jobbery.

The bottom line is that even a "maximum possible peak human" is not going to be able to throw a 12-pound disc hard enough to physically hurt these characters. Particularly given that the Shield absorbs much of the physical force of impacts (Funny how that protects Cap from being swatted around all over the place and crushed under the force of superhuman blows, but seems conveniently ignored when the shield hits other people).

That's not funny at all, it's just comic science. There's no way it should ricochet the way it does, either, based on that same principle. We should just accept those as conventions of the shield/Cap's skill since stuff like hurting people with high durability and redirecting Mjlonir happens consistently.

[Pendaran]

That's not funny at all, it's just comic science. There's no way it should ricochet the way it does, either, based on that same principle. We should just accept those as conventions of the shield/Cap's skill since stuff like hurting people with high durability and redirecting Mjlonir happens consistently.

Stuff like hurting people with high durability contradicts the consistent durability feats of the people being so hurt, is the problem with you wanting to claim that we need to accept that Cap can hit harder than the core of a star. It's not like Cap busts up adamantium with his bare hands.

By that logic, we need to accept that Captain Cold can hit people with FTL reflexes despite lacking anything that doesn't make such wildly contradict the things that those people have done with such. After all, he's done it a whole bunch of times.

Characters have jobber auras. Cap's no different.

Unless you want to argue he can legitimately knock out the Hulk.

[Jmacq1]

Yeah, Comic book science is kind of irrelevant. If they can take tank shells and missiles without being hurt (which are larger and moving faster when they hit), Cap's shield shouldn't be doing squat to them. It's a "low end showing" for their durability, and bordering on SM vs. FL for Cap.

[Pendaran]

In which case a few of the above might get cut.

Such as who?

[Jmacq1]

Such as who?

I was thinking more along the lines of the Power Rangers and the 2003 He-Man. To my knowledge, none of them have shown direct resistance to edged weaponry. Heck, I'm not sure the 2003 He-Man's ever been shown to get hit by much of anything at all that we could draw durability feats from.

But I could be wrong on the Rangers. Don't really know enough about them to say.

[Pendaran]

As long as you don't say Superman..

Couldn't tell you on 2003 He-Man.

The Rangers get the sparks flying off them and get hurled back from various things that cut at them. I imagine the shield throw could do that I'd s'spose.

[Sharpandpointies]

Yep, Cap's shield often gets wanked.

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/7095/wankqo2.th.jpg (http://img258.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wankqo2.jpg)

[Black Atom]

Stuff like hurting people with high durability contradicts the consistent durability feats of the people being so hurt, is the problem with you wanting to claim that we need to accept that Cap can hit harder than the core of a star. It's not like Cap busts up adamantium with his bare hands.

True, but when he throws his shield, all sorts of bizarre shit happens, like it moving faster than a rocket. It consistently takes on almost Bullseye-levels of improbable physics once it leaves Cap's hands.


By that logic, we need to accept that Captain Cold can hit people with FTL reflexes despite lacking anything that doesn't make such wildly contradict the things that those people have done with such. After all, he's done it a whole bunch of times.

How often has Cold hit anyone with FTL reflexes anyway? It seems to be popular belief that this occurs all the time, but I'm at a loss to remember a single time it's happened recently.

[Pendaran]

Yep, Cap's shield often gets wanked.

You sir, win this thread.

That's.. I need to believe that the artist was totally aware of what they did just there, on some level.

[Black Atom]

Yeah, Comic book science is kind of irrelevant. If they can take tank shells and missiles without being hurt (which are larger and moving faster when they hit), Cap's shield shouldn't be doing squat to them. It's a "low end showing" for their durability, and bordering on SM vs. FL for Cap.

But the shield has done stuff like that consistently when thrown by Cap, even if he hasn't exhibited that strength with his barehands.

[Pendaran]

True, but when he throws his shield, all sorts of bizarre shit happens, like it moving faster than a rocket. It consistently takes on almost Bullseye-levels of improbable physics once it leaves Cap's hands.

Replace Shield with "Spiderman's fists" and Heralds of Galactus and guys with the durability of Thor, and you begin to approach my view on this.

Cap can't throw his shield such that it does more damage than the core of a star. Nothing Cap has reasonably accomplished supports him doing so.

By the way, it moved "faster than a rocket" that was travelling visibly to the naked eye, and so slowly that Falcon was in no way injured by being strapped to the front of it and near naked.


How often has Cold hit anyone with FTL reflexes anyway? It seems to be popular belief that this occurs all the time, but I'm at a loss to remember a single time it's happened recently.

Heat Wave and Cold both silmul fragged the Flash during that Rogue War mess, just off the top of my head. It was.. severely atrocious. I realize it was supposed to look cool, but I could only shake my head and sigh.

[Sharpandpointies]

You sir, win this thread.

That's.. I need to believe that the artist was totally aware of what they did just there, on some level.

I guffaw each and every time I look at the picture. I think you're right.

[Pendaran]

But the shield has done stuff like that consistently when thrown by Cap, even if he hasn't exhibited that strength with his barehands.

And Captain Cold has consistently hit the Flash. And J'onn consistently jobs out when in a Superman book despite his accomplishments in other places.

Yes or no, are you arguing that Cap's hardest shield throw is more damaging than being in the center of the sun?

[Black Atom]

By the way, it moved "faster than a rocket" that was travelling visibly to the naked eye, and so slowly that Falcon was in no way injured by being strapped to the front of it and near naked.

The same could be said about a 747. It'd still impress me if a guy standing a football field away from it was able to throw a metal disc far and fast enough to overtake it.


And Captain Cold has consistently hit the Flash. And J'onn consistently jobs out when in a Superman book despite his accomplishments in other places.

That's because Flash forgets that he can move FTL and J'onn forgets what half of his powers are. Do characters hit by Captain America's shield forget they're durable? The instances you're trying to compare are not congruent.


Yes or no, are you arguing that Cap's hardest shield throw is more damaging than being in the center of the sun?

I never claimed that to begin with. The only point I was making is that Cap's shield has a history of hurting high-durability bricks or accomplishing other such srength feats that far outstrip what he's demonstrated bare-handed. You can chalk that up to a jobber aura if you want, I guess (even though it happens when there's no one there to job) but then I'd like an explanation of why certain feats count as PIS and why others don't.

[Pendaran]

I never claimed that to begin with.


So, you don't feel the example someone cited of Cap so knocking out someone that had been inside a star is legitimate?

When Doctor Doom caught Cap's shield midthrow, shouldn't it have sheared his hand off?

When Daredevil managed with his billy club to send a berserk Cap's shield throw flying away, shouldn't his billy club have shattered to a thousand pieces?

Are you arguing that Cap can legitimately hurt Superman with a shield throw? He's on the list here.

When Cap needed to specifically strike at the weak points of Armadillo with his shield, and even then was only barely impairing him for doing so, was that a low showing?

[Black Atom]

You can chalk it up to whatever explanation you want. Maybe Cap has a Karnak/Val Armorr-like ability to hit bricks in specific weak points. The original point that I was making is that it happens consistently enough that it shouldn't be completely discredited.

[Pendaran]

Maybe Cap has a Karnak/Val Armorr-like ability to hit bricks in specific weak points.

Except that he doesn't.


The original point that I was making is that it happens consistently enough that it shouldn't be completely discredited.

Cap throws his shield at Superman, Superman is hurt, yes or no?

Cap throws his shield at someone that has endured being in the core of a star and they're knocked out, is this legitimate, yes or no?


The original point that I was making is that it happens consistently enough that it shouldn't be completely discredited.

I'm pretty sure we discount jobber auras just fine.

[chilled monkey]

So hold on. When DC's Karate Kid stalemates Superboy (a pre-Crisis Kryptonian), or stops an earthquake by stamping his foot or shatters unbreakable substances with his bare hands etc, even though KK is just a mega-trained 'peak human' who doesn't even have a super-soldier serum or an indestructible weapon, all that stuff is OK, and no one ever calls it jobbing or PIS etc.

But when Captain America, who does have a super soldier serum and an indestructible weapon, does much less than that, there's a problem?

Something seems off there.




When Doctor Doom caught Cap's shield midthrow, shouldn't it have sheared his hand off?

When Daredevil managed with his billy club to send a berserk Cap's shield throw flying away, shouldn't his billy club have shattered to a thousand pieces?

When Cap needed to specifically strike at the weak points of Armadillo with his shield, and even then was only barely impairing him for doing so, was that a low showing?

This is CBR. We go by high-end feats. If Cap's high-end feats are hurting Hulk, the Captive etc, then low showings are ignored.


That's called PIS...or Jobbery.

Only it isn't. PIS is when a character does something it's established they are not capable of i.e. it's an exceptional case. It is established that Cap can hurt bricks, he's done it numerous times, hence it's not PIS. See the above example.

[Pendaran]

So hold on. When DC's Karate Kid stalemates Superboy (a pre-Crisis Kryptonian), or stops an earthquake by stamping his foot or shatters unbreakable substances with his bare hands etc, even though KK is just a mega-trained 'peak human' who doesn't even have a super-soldier serum or an indestructible weapon, all that stuff is OK, and no one ever calls it jobbing or PIS etc.

But when Captain America, who does have a super soldier serum and an indestructible weapon, does much less than that, there's a problem?

Something seems off there.


So hold on, when Cap's non combat feats in no way remotely suggest he has the physical capacity to remotely affect the durability of various beings, whereas Val's non combat feats involve tearing indestructible metals apart with his bare hands and putting out earthquakes..

No, you lost me on where you tried to make the entire point of why Cap can't do these things into an arguement against Karate Kid, who backs up what he does in fights with various feats that demonstrate his capacity otherwise.

And you mean a super soldier serum that doesn't make him above peak human, as opposed to the collected martial arts of a galaxy? Yeah, I'm pretty comfortable in saying there's no basis to even try and compare such things.

Something is definitely wrong here. And it would be called trying to say that Cap is the equivalent of Val Armor.


This is CBR. We go by high-end feats. If Cap's high-end feats are hurting Hulk, the Captive etc, then low showings are ignored.

This is CBR, when Spiderman hurts Firelord, we ignore it.


Only it isn't. PIS is when a character does something it's established they are not capable of i.e. it's an exceptional case. It is established that Cap can hurt bricks, he's done it numerous times, hence it's not PIS. See the above example.

Captain Cold hits an FTL speedster repeatedly. That's legitimate, right?

Some yes or no questions for you that people seem to hide from answering directly:

When Doctor Doom caught Cap's shield midthrow, shouldn't it have sheared his hand off?

When Daredevil managed with his billy club to send a berserk Cap's shield throw flying away, shouldn't his billy club have shattered to a thousand pieces?

Are you arguing that Cap can legitimately hurt Superman with a shield throw? He's on the list here.

When Cap needed to specifically strike at the weak points of Armadillo with his shield, and even then was only barely impairing him for doing so, was that a low showing?

[Grimm]

You can chalk it up to whatever explanation you want. Maybe Cap has a Karnak/Val Armorr-like ability to hit bricks in specific weak points. The original point that I was making is that it happens consistently enough that it shouldn't be completely discredited.

Karnak knocked out the Surfer with a brick.

Since his power is to find the weak spot in anything, and is consistently shown would you say that Karnak can do that?

[chilled monkey]

And you mean a super soldier serum that doesn't make him above peak human, as opposed to the collected martial arts of a galaxy? Yeah, I'm pretty comfortable in saying there's no basis to even try and compare such things.

Something is definitely wrong here. And it would be called trying to say that Cap is the equivalent of Val Armor.

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I did not mean that Cap is equal to KK. I was simply pointing out that no-one complains when KK does these amazing feats, even though he is only 'peak human,' yet when Cap does feats that are less than what KK does, there's a problem.

Basically, you're trying to have one rule for one character and a different rule for another.

And by the way, the SSS does make Cap above peak human. His body doesn't produce lactic acid (something that even a peak human's body does). Cap's body has been optimised in every possible way. You're a sprinter, he's a better sprinter. You're a marathon runner, Cap's got better stamina etc. The SSS unlocked his full physical potential.


This is CBR, when Spiderman hurts Firelord, we ignore it.

Sure, because it's a one-off showing that is inconsistant with what Spiderman is normally capable of. Cap has consistantly shown he can do things like hurt Hulk etc.


Captain Cold hits an FTL speedster repeatedly. That's legitimate, right?

Don't know who he is.


When Doctor Doom caught Cap's shield midthrow, shouldn't it have sheared his hand off?

When Daredevil managed with his billy club to send a berserk Cap's shield throw flying away, shouldn't his billy club have shattered to a thousand pieces?

Are you arguing that Cap can legitimately hurt Superman with a shield throw? He's on the list here.


We don't count low-end showings here.

Ditto.

If Cap can hurt Hulk, he should be able to have an effect on Superman, especially the animated version.

[Black Atom]

Karnak knocked out the Surfer with a brick.

Since his power is to find the weak spot in anything, and is consistently shown would you say that Karnak can do that?

I don't know much about Karnak honestly. That is, I don't have a laundry list of Karnak feats logged in my brain. But if he was constantly doing stuff like that? Yeah, sure.

I mean, Bullseye does stuff like throwing paper airplanes thru windows. Val Armorr has destroyed an energy field by hitting it's weak spot. Shit like that doesn't even make sense, but we chalk it up to them having developed a skill that bends physics to an improbable level. Cap's shield has consistently hurt high-durability bricks, cut through stuff it really shouldn't cut and flown faster and father than anything thrown by a peak-human has any right to.

[Grimm]

I don't know much about Karnak honestly. That is, I don't have a laundry list of Karnak feats logged in my brain. But if he was constantly doing stuff like that? Yeah, sure.

I mean, Bullseye does stuff like throwing paper airplanes thru windows. Val Armorr has destroyed an energy field by hitting it's weak spot. Shit like that doesn't even make sense, but we chalk it up to them having developed a skill that bends physics to an improbable level. Cap's shield has consistently hurt high-durability bricks, cut through stuff it really shouldn't cut and flown faster and father than anything thrown by a peak-human has any right to.

I have to say, I'd love to see a scan of bullseye throwing a paper aeroplace through a window. That really has to be seen to be believed (not that I don't believe you of course).

What you aren't getting then is that physics busting is common place in comics, and as such it has no feats to defend itself. Whereas bricks do have actual feats which contradict them getting hurt by Cap's shield.

Maybe you don't know much about Karnak. Fair enough. Let's use Spider-Man? He has shown the ability more than once to have high end bricks feel his kicks and punches. Namor, Hulk, Thanos ect. So does Spidey have the ability to hurt high-end bricks too? Or is it just pure jobbery?

[itsyaboy]

So hold on. When DC's Karate Kid stalemates Superboy (a pre-Crisis Kryptonian), or stops an earthquake by stamping his foot or shatters unbreakable substances with his bare hands etc, even though KK is just a mega-trained 'peak human' who doesn't even have a super-soldier serum or an indestructible weapon, all that stuff is OK, and no one ever calls it jobbing or PIS etc.

But when Captain America, who does have a super soldier serum and an indestructible weapon, does much less than that, there's a problem?

Something seems off there.





I call it jobbing. But that's just my opinion.

[Black Atom]

I have to say, I'd love to see a scan of bullseye throwing a paper aeroplace through a window. That really has to be seen to be believed (not that I don't believe you of course).

Well, how about killing people with everything from playing cards, to toothpics to plates?


What you aren't getting then is that physics busting is common place in comics, and as such it has no feats to defend itself. Whereas bricks do have actual feats which contradict them getting hurt by Cap's shield.

Maybe you don't know much about Karnak. Fair enough. Let's use Spider-Man? He has shown the ability more than once to have high end bricks feel his kicks and punches. Namor, Hulk, Thanos ect. So does Spidey have the ability to hurt high-end bricks too? Or is it just pure jobbery?

I can't think of too many instances where Spider-Man has beat down a high-end brick (like say, Thing-level plus). He might beat on them for a little while but generally he causes little more than an annoyance to guys like that, unless you can think of specific instances.

[Totoro Man]

I've always wondered that too.

it's a plot device and character-shield all rolled up into one patriotic package. with that lethal combination is anybody really THAT surprised! :rolleyes:

[itsyaboy]

Karnak knocked out the Surfer with a brick.

Since his power is to find the weak spot in anything, and is consistently shown would you say that Karnak can do that?

Since Surfer is resilient enough to fly through stars and blackholes.....unless it was an adamantium brick or something just as strong.....then I'd say that Surfer jobbed out.

[Chris Heide]

So hold on. When DC's Karate Kid stalemates Superboy (a pre-Crisis Kryptonian), or stops an earthquake by stamping his foot or shatters unbreakable substances with his bare hands etc, even though KK is just a mega-trained 'peak human' who doesn't even have a super-soldier serum or an indestructible weapon, all that stuff is OK, and no one ever calls it jobbing or PIS etc.

But when Captain America, who does have a super soldier serum and an indestructible weapon, does much less than that, there's a problem?

Something seems off there.

I don't know if it's DC fanboyism, Bush admin era anti-patriotism, or plain old iconoclasm, but a lot of Hatorade gets drank in Cap's name around here it seems...

http://herochat.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=100779

There's a big ol' thread full of Cap feats...I especially like the one where he tosses the Hulk with one arm with a judo throw...

[Baltho08]

Cap SHOULD win against 9/10 Marvel guys everytime; he's the best MU martial artist there is. Period.
Peace.

[Pendaran]

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I did not mean that Cap is equal to KK. I was simply pointing out that no-one complains when KK does these amazing feats, even though he is only 'peak human,' yet when Cap does feats that are less than what KK does, there's a problem.


When Cap does feats that are less than what KK does, and you claim he can regardless hurt people that can endure being inside a star, there is indeed a huge problem.

You seem not to grasp that Val backs up what he does in fights with general accomplishments that reinforce his capacity outside of it. Captain America does not. Indeed, Cap's showings of strength, stamina and the like outright reinforce that what you demand Cap should be able to do, would in no way intersect with the durability showings of the people he is affecting.


Karnak knocked out the Surfer with a brick.

Since his power is to find the weak spot in anything, and is consistently shown would you say that Karnak can do that?

Karnak has shown that even with his weak spot power, he has failed to hurt a variety of durable people, including the Hulk, so no, that's an example of the Surfer jobbing.


Let's use Spider-Man? He has shown the ability more than once to have high end bricks feel his kicks and punches. Namor, Hulk, Thanos ect. So does Spidey have the ability to hurt high-end bricks too? Or is it just pure jobbery?

Pure jobbery. Unless you want to claim Spiderman punches as hard as the Hulk does. Do you?


Basically, you're trying to have one rule for one character and a different rule for another.


Captain Cold hits the Flash a lot. Does this mean Captain Cold has FTL striking capacity?

You're trying to basically ignore a lack of evidence to support your characters having the capacity to do these things, and ignoring that say, Val has a variety of feats that show he can hurt these people.

Or: Has Cap ever ripped apart indestructible metal with his fists? I'll totally buy him hurting people who can float around inside stars then.

Oh, he hasn't? Then no, you're basically warping and ignoring feats.


Sure, because it's a one-off showing that is inconsistant with what Spiderman is normally capable of. Cap has consistantly shown he can do things like hurt Hulk etc.


Spiderman's hurt all kinds of people. Him and Cap recently knocked out the Hulk in flashback. Yet we acknowledge that given what the characters show as their capacity in strength and the like, and the durability feats of the person they've affected, there's no way to claim that as valid.

Way to be selective.


Don't know who he is.


A guy with somewhat above normal human reflexes who somehow repeatedly hits an FTL speedster who's reaction time feats blow Captain Cold's out of the water. Flash rogues like Cold are in fact the textbook example for PIS here. By your logic, they shouldn't be.


We don't count low-end showings here.

Ditto.

If Cap can hurt Hulk, he should be able to have an effect on Superman, especially the animated version.

So that's yes, anytime anyone below the Hulk has caught or disrupted a Cap shield throw, that's a low showing.

And Cap can hit hard enough to knock out people who can live inside stars.

This is what you want to claim?

[Grimm]

Well, how about killing people with everything from playing cards, to toothpics to plates?

I've seen all that, and I've even seen Jamie Madrox kill someone with a playing card.

What I haven't seen is Bullseye throw a paper aeroplane through a window, which is why I asked for a scan..


Karnak has shown that even with his weak spot power, he has failed to hurt a variety of durable people, including the Hulk, so no, that's an example of the Surfer jobbing

Yeah, that and the Spider-Man thing were kinda my point. It's jobbing. I had to change tack when Atom said he didn't know much about Karnak. Guess my point must have got lost :(

My point: If a much weaker character can't inflict damage with a punch why would throwing a blunt object be any different?

[Pendaran]

Yeah, that and the Spider-Man thing were kinda my point. It's jobbing.

It is indeed, spectacular, amazing jobbing.

[Grimm]

It is indeed, spectacular, amazing jobbing.

I'm trying to find an old Amazing Spider-Man Annual where She-Hulk takes on the Abomination during Atlantis Attacks. Spider-Man actually puts all his strength into hitting Abomination.. and he doesn't even notice.. :D

[BitVyper]

Sailor Galaxia (anime) - Nothing
Superman (animated series version- Pre Justice League unlimited)
Superman (comics version)
He-man (2003 version)
Megatron (G1)
Megatron (Beast Wars)
A Mighty Morphin Power Ranger (any of the core 5, I think their durability is the same)
Green Ranger (evil)
Thing
Darkseid (comics)
Darkseid (animated)

Out of the above, the only ones I can see it hurting are the main five PRs, and it won't really hurt them beyond anything superficial. Should be on about the same level as getting knocked around by a Putty.

Shield's not hurting anyone who can sit down to eat his lunch in the middle of a gun fight.

[Sharpandpointies]

Cap SHOULD win against 9/10 Marvel guys everytime; he's the best MU martial artist there is. Period.
Peace.

Unfortunately his feats and showings don't back that up, compared to some of the others.

Cap is top level in skill, along with certain other fighters. But he can't keep up to the other top tier fighters in terms of stats.

[The Watcher]

Captain America has not exhibited the consistent capacity feat-wise generally to reasonably support that he can direct sufficient force to do much to the people on the list.

People are warping evidence by basically taking the weak showings of people Cap has hit and saying this proves Cap hits hard enough to hit bricks, when other showings of Cap show he doesn't hit as hard as other things the characters normally shrug off.

The difference between Captain America and Val Armor is that Val has consistently been portrayed to be able to do things at the level he does them, whereas the level that Cap has been consistently portrayed at is a lower one in which he does not inflict enough force to do what some on this thread say he can do. They're taking abberations, the weakest showings of durability of the characters Cap has fought, and using them to say they're greater than what they normally shrug off.

In short, Cap does not hit harder than an exploding star.

[chilled monkey]

Captain America has not exhibited the consistent capacity feat-wise generally to reasonably support that he can direct sufficient force to do much to the people on the list.

People are warping evidence by basically taking the weak showings of people Cap has hit and saying this proves Cap hits hard enough to hit bricks, when other showings of Cap show he doesn't hit as hard as other things the characters normally shrug off.

The difference between Captain America and Val Armor is that Val has consistently been portrayed to be able to do things at the level he does them, whereas the level that Cap has been consistently portrayed at is a lower one in which he does not inflict enough force to do what some on this thread say he can do. They're taking abberations, the weakest showings of durability of the characters Cap has fought, and using them to say they're greater than what they normally shrug off.

In short, Cap does not hit harder than an exploding star.

He doesn't need to. Cap is able to hurt 'bricks' because his skill allows him to hit weak points with amazing precision. That's what people here seem to forget. It's not just "how hard you hit," it's also where and when you place those hits.


I don't know if it's DC fanboyism, Bush admin era anti-patriotism, or plain old iconoclasm, but a lot of Hatorade gets drank in Cap's name around here it seems...

http://herochat.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=100779

There's a big ol' thread full of Cap feats...I especially like the one where he tosses the Hulk with one arm with a judo throw...

Precisely, thank you.

[chilled monkey]

A guy with somewhat above normal human reflexes who somehow repeatedly hits an FTL speedster who's reaction time feats blow Captain Cold's out of the water. Flash rogues like Cold are in fact the textbook example for PIS here. By your logic, they shouldn't be.

Going slightly OT, that really bugs me. Does it ever occur to anyone that just because Flash CAN go FTL, that doesn't mean he always HAS to. Maybe he wants to conserve energy, or he isn't pushing himself because the stakes aren't as high, figuratively speaking. That is NOT Plot Induced Stupidity. That is sensible which is the complete opposite of stupidity, Plot Induced or otherwise.


And Cap can hit hard enough to knock out people who can live inside stars.

This is what you want to claim?

No.

My point is that Cap can hit with enough precision to knock out people who can live inside stars.

[Grimm]

Going slightly OT, that really bugs me. Does it ever occur to anyone that just because Flash CAN go FTL, that doesn't mean he always HAS to. Maybe he wants to conserve energy, or he isn't pushing himself because the stakes aren't as high, figuratively speaking. That is NOT Plot Induced Stupidity. That is sensible which is the complete opposite of stupidity, Plot Induced or otherwise.



No.

My point is that Cap can hit with enough precision to knock out people who can live inside stars.

Firstly, you're correct, Flash doesn't always go at FTL speeds. You know why? Even going one hundredth of the speed of light, he is still going to be invisible to the naked eye and blitz the crap out of non-speedsters.

You think it makes sense to go so slow as to get tagged and risk being killed, to conserve energy? So energy conservation > life conservation?

Secondly, so a guy can survive the crushing pressures of a star, which will exert equally on all parts of their body. Yet, Captain America will hit them with less force in a weak spot, and they will be knocked out?

Gotta say, your logic is lost on me. Can you explain that?

[Pendaran]

He doesn't need to. Cap is able to hurt 'bricks' because his skill allows him to hit weak points with amazing precision. That's what people here seem to forget. It's not just "how hard you hit," it's also where and when you place those hits.

He has no feats nor grounding demonstrating he operates on this level of skill, when asked for such feats, your response essentially amounts to "he hits harder than a star because he hits harder than a star"

By contrast for instance with, say, someone like Val, we have things like putting out earthquakes and busting up the Emerald eye. We have basically a near consistent career of high end accomplishment both within fights and outside them on that specific level.

With Cap there is nothing of the sort that establishes any reason for him able to damage on the equivalent of the core of a star beyond "I say so".

Or: Where's Cap breaking indestructible materials. Where's Cap mastering skills that we see lets the people who do so gain cosmic insight and or move between reality. Where's Cap putting out Earthquakes with his foot. He can't do any of these things whatsoever, and indeed has a career showing he operates /well/ below that level, but regardless, it should be accepted that on skill alone he can damage on a level you want him to be accepted at.

And Spiderman's helped knock out the Hulk (hey, with Cap!), knocked out Firelord, hurt Thor and hurt Namor.

That's all legitimate too, right?


Going slightly OT, that really bugs me. Does it ever occur to anyone that just because Flash CAN go FTL, that doesn't mean he always HAS to. Maybe he wants to conserve energy, or he isn't pushing himself because the stakes aren't as high, figuratively speaking. That is NOT Plot Induced Stupidity. That is sensible which is the complete opposite of stupidity, Plot Induced or otherwise.

So, your complaint is that you don't like the board guidelines for debating characters.


My point is that Cap can hit with enough precision to knock out people who can live inside stars.

And Spiderman can hurt Firelord. And Captain Cold can hit a Flash who's speeding about and you'd like it to be completely redefined because you don't want to accept a mod ruling about Captain America.



Precisely, thank you.

I miss where in any of those Cap shows skill enough to bust up indestructible metals, or, say, masters a martial art that shows its practicioners able to do things like step between the layers of reality or grants them limited cosmic awareness, to use a non Val example, for why I should buy that characters who can sit inside a sun, or various other character's durability no longer matters in terms of multiple showings that establish such.

You have an utter paucity of feats that show Cap demonstrating enough skill to do these things, and your repeated answer is only "Cap showed enough skill to hurt people who can sit inside stars, by hurting them"

Essentially your arguement is that Cap can do this because he's Cap, which is right under "how not to debate" in the guidelines, but then again, you've just noted your dislike for them anyway.

Which makes it ironic when you go "this is CBR, we go by high end showings". So basically, the guidelines apply when you like them to, but not when you don't.

To correct you, no, we go by reasonable high end showings. The entire point of the idea that feats can be looked at for their particular validity, is.. that. It's why for instance we don't particularly count Superman's job out the entire JLA performance in OWAW. Given how nonsensical it makes the JLA look.

Of course by your logic, we should.

Hey, let's say the Silver Surfer stands still and lets Cap with shield wail away, can Cap knock the Surfer out? This is a simple question.