Do Women Really Like Bad Boys?

[heystacy]

I've been talking with some female friends, who have been discussing what they want in a man, but their list of needs contradicts who they are hooking up with.

Many say that they want to be loved, cherished and respected, yet they will pick a rotten guy who abandons them emotionally, or abuses them. Sometimes both. They don't even think they can leave the guy.

Since there are so many smart ladies and gentlemen on YABS, I thought we could discuss this.

[KevinTBrown]

It's the same thing on the "other side" though.

Guys love the slutty women, but want to take miss prim and proper home to mom & dad.

[sunshinegirl]

'cause they're fun!

...although 'fun' wears off and you have to be STUCK with that person, that's why we marry good guys.

although, a nice blend of good/bad is always a plus, i think. i know that's what i am.

[heystacy]

It's the same thing on the "other side" though.

Guys love the slutty women, but want to take miss prim and proper home to mom & dad.

How many guys become attached to the "slutty" woman and expect a relationship to blossom? I'm talking about getting into a relationship and knowing someone's "trouble," and thinking something is going to change. :(

[heystacy]

'cause they're fun!

...although 'fun' wears off and you have to be STUCK with that person, that's why we marry good guys.

although, a nice blend of good/bad is always a plus, i think. i know that's what i am.

I've seen the fun wear off. The trapped part is so accurate. But there is a difference between some fun dates and trying to have a serious relationship with someone who isn't interested in a relationship, but out for all he/she can get.

[Night Swordsman]

How many guys become attached to the "slutty" woman and expect a relationship to blossom? I'm talking about getting into a relationship and knowing someone's "trouble," and thinking something is going to change. :(

Probably a lot of guys do. I do believe SunshineGirl has stated it best.

(Hands heystacy a REAL rootbeer)

[shrike]

I like bad boys for a while but yeah it usually gets old FAST.

I prefer them from a distance now. Can't say the same when I was a teenager, lol.

... I'm usually drawn to crazies anymore, but its like the crazy you discover a few months down the road.

[DaveRothe]

Too often we "settle" because we don't think we can do any better. Love is almost like reverse psychology. When you get your life together and aren't really looking for someone that's when they come along. I guess what I'm trying to say is get yourself together first and everything else will fall into place. I think men and women would agree a confident person is sexay.

[heystacy]

Probably a lot of guys do. I do believe SunshineGirl has stated it best.

(Hands heystacy a REAL rootbeer)

My root beer. Awesome. ;)

Maybe I should just tell my friends to stop crying and dump the guy, or let go of the faults.

[JamesRitcheyIII]

Yeah.

I've always been very good at putting on the facade of bein' one (esp. after a few drinks--I turn into Lestat without the whole 'vampire' thing--for lack of a better description), only to be busted for being a nice guy, later on--and I find 'nice (translation: 'sane')' girls generally boring, intellectually and in the sack. A high percentage of ex-girlfriends of mine later marry (and divorce) complete assholes.

[heystacy]

Yeah.

I've always been very good at putting on the facade of bein' one (esp. after a few drinks--I turn into Lestat without the whole 'vampire' thing--for lack of a better description), only to be busted for being a nice guy, later on--and I find 'nice (translation: 'sane')' girls generally boring, intellectually and in the sack. A high percentage of ex-girlfriends of mine later marry (and divorce) complete assholes.

That's real honest. WOW.

Didn't expect that. Thanks for responding.

[Paul McEnery]

How many guys become attached to the "slutty" woman and expect a relationship to blossom? I'm talking about getting into a relationship and knowing someone's "trouble," and thinking something is going to change. :(

Hey, how many guys get married to the slutty woman only to have the sex evaporate the moment the ring is on her finger?

[KevinTBrown]

Hey, how many guys get married to the slutty woman only to have the sex evaporate the moment the ring is on her finger?

Hence the joke: How do you get a slut to stop having sex? Marry her. :D

[heystacy]

Hey, how many guys get married to the slutty woman only to have the sex evaporate the moment the ring is on her finger?

Most of my male friends don't complain as much as my female friends do.

[KevinTBrown]

Seriously though, I wish I could explain it.....

It seems there are some great looking women who are with total jerks. These are women who could probably have any man they wanted, but it's the one who could give a shit about them that they love.

[Paul McEnery]

Most of my male friends don't complain as much as my female friends do.

Um...

:evilsmile

[heystacy]

Um...

:evilsmile

LOL I hear more women being upset about the guys they chose. Most guys I know, who get burned go into hiding. I guess they don't want others to know they're hurting.

[Hodge]

How many guys become attached to the "slutty" woman and expect a relationship to blossom? I'm talking about getting into a relationship and knowing someone's "trouble," and thinking something is going to change. :(

That applies to ALL relationships. Seen too many people try to mold their partners into something they are clearly not!

Defo applies to girls who try to rein in "bad guys".

PS Always questioned the term "nice guy", having been called it once (I'm usually refered by terms that are not as polite!). Surely someone who is a stand-up guy, does the right thing and doesn't hurt anyone is a good guy? I think that is more apt.

[sunshinegirl]

Hence the joke: How do you get a slut to stop having sex? Marry her. :D

so the ones that weren't slutty.....?? guess it's just the opposite?

[pariah-1972]

I personally find bad girls more attractive usually than good girls cause they have more fire and passion
although it usually bites me in the ass at the end when i get my heartbroken (sigh)

[sunshinegirl]

I personally find bad girls more attractive usually than good girls cause they have more fire and passion
although it usually bites me in the ass at the end when i get my heartbroken (sigh)

then you gotta find a bad girl with a good heart! (there's some out there)

[Hodge]

then you gotta find a bad girl with a good heart! (there's some out there)

Like Catwoman?

Bad girls with bad hearts have very limited warranties. That's why they are always on the shelf.

[Gloria]

I like "nice guys". Most "bad boys" I can't find attractive because of their bragging their lack of neurones.

But then I find that the dreamgirls of guys ("nice" or "bad") are usually badass supermodels.

[Hodge]

I personally find bad girls more attractive usually than good girls cause they have more fire and passion
although it usually bites me in the ass at the end when i get my heartbroken (sigh)

I think most guys eventually learn to stop smacking their head against that particular wall.

Try looking for feisty women rather than bad, less wear and tear on your guts.

[pariah-1972]

I always seem to attract women with lots of "issues" but im trying to get over that.
so they are either nice but boring or bad with lots of issues wich is exciting but me ends up with broken heart.

[rick]

I've always had a real love for bad girls, and they have always seemed to have a real love for me as long as I was being bad right back.

[sunshinegirl]

I always seem to attract women with lots of "issues" but im trying to get over that.
so they are either nice but boring or bad with lots of issues wich is exciting but me ends up with broken heart.

here's a little secret: everyone has 'issues'. some people just deal with them better than others. the 'bad girls' are usually just the same situation as 'bad guys', i think. they're fun for a while, an awesome lay, and then 3 or 4 months later, completely crazy, controlling, psychotic, and .... shall i continue? i've dealt with guys like this, and i've seen my guy friends deal with chicks like that. i promise you that there ARE 'good girls' that are FUN. i don't know how else to explain it so i'll use myself as an example: i love to party. i love loud crazy music, fast cars, sex (alot), flirting, attention, partying- did i say that?, i've been kicked outta bars for dancing on the pool table, i have a carpe diem attitude, and sometimes i'm just a complete meanyhead. on the otherhand, i love my children, i give them a good home, i love my husband, and i try my best to be a good wife, and i have extreme convictions about my career....and i'm a little bit of a geek- just don't tell anyone.

does that make any sense?

[Corrina]

Confidence is attractive.

At a certain age for boys/men, it seems only the bad boys have confidence. It's the one thing they have that many boys/men their age don't. They know what they want, they go get it.

In a few years, guys who are good, nice guys, develop more confidence and catch up and it evens out, especially since bad boys tend to burn out.

Also, bad boys give off the vibe that they know about sex and would be good in bed. This, believe it or not, girls do take into consideration.

So I'd advise young men who want to develop confidence to figure out what they want in life, work toward it, live on their own, etc. All that should develop independence and confidence and I think both genders tend to find that really attractive.

Hence, the joke about men/women turning up just when someone decided "god dammit, I'm done. I don't need a partner, I'm just going to do what I want."

[Gilda Dent]

My mom has had a series of boyfriends and husbands, all of whom fit the typical bad boy profile, all of whom were, as the name implies, immature abusive jerks.

I'll never understand why she didn't look for a nice guy, why she ignored the good men she encountered in favor of the bad boys. Sure, they're not as exciting, but I'd think that giving up a little excitement in favor of having a man who doesn't abuse, neglect, or belittle you would be well worth it.

[Charles RB]

So I'd advise young men who want to develop confidence to figure out what they want in life

Before or after we discover the Philosopher's Stone?

[Tommy]

As for those people who I would consider bad boys (from observing my friends), well there are a lot of reasons why they are attractive.

You have your dangerous types. Those are attractive since they provide a steady stream of entertainment in the form of drama. Dating one of them there is always something going on, something to conspire about, something to be upset about.

You have your rebels. These people are attractive since they have passion. It doesn’t really matter what they are passionate about (or even if their rebellion makes any sense) but the point is they have fire and zeal with in them.

And you have your moody types. These people are attractive since they are intelligent and challenging. They have a great disdain for the world, often times a great disdain for themselves. So the fact that they like you is a complement. Plus you share a wonderful secret in that you know the real person on the inside.

Most bad boys I have met in real life fit into one (or all) of these categories.

[Paul McEnery]

Like Catwoman?

Bad girls with bad hearts have very limited warranties. That's why they are always on the shelf.

The shelf, the kitchen table, the hood of your car...

[PatrickG]

Before or after we discover the Philosopher's Stone?

I dunno. But if I had that, I think I'd say, "God dammit, I'm done. I don't need a partner, I'm just going to do what I want."

And I'd mean it. Pleasure is a poor substitute for power, the crutch of those who cannot attain it or who, upon attaining it, cannot fathom its richness and manage it efficiently.

... I really feel like a super-villain lately.

Do I sound that way?

[Infra-Man]

For some reason the mention of shelves made me think of a bad girl librarian wearing a button-up sweater, lacy underoos, horn-rimmed glasses, and high heels; her hair up in a bun thanks to a pair of calligraphy pens, stylus ends sticking out. She's leaning over a bookcase like a cheap car model, and in the bookcase are dog-eared copies of literary fiction paperbacks. The spines of these books--many of which revealing the cracks of late-night wear and countless fold overs, hinting she treated some of her reading material like origami--reveal her tendency toward contemporary literacy fiction, a majority of the titles candidates for or the lauded entries on the New York Times year-end notable list.

...jeez, I need help.

[pariah-1972]

here's a little secret: everyone has 'issues'. some people just deal with them better than others. the 'bad girls' are usually just the same situation as 'bad guys', i think. they're fun for a while, an awesome lay, and then 3 or 4 months later, completely crazy, controlling, psychotic, and .... shall i continue? i've dealt with guys like this, and i've seen my guy friends deal with chicks like that. i promise you that there ARE 'good girls' that are FUN. i don't know how else to explain it so i'll use myself as an example: i love to party. i love loud crazy music, fast cars, sex (alot), flirting, attention, partying- did i say that?, i've been kicked outta bars for dancing on the pool table, i have a carpe diem attitude, and sometimes i'm just a complete meanyhead. on the otherhand, i love my children, i give them a good home, i love my husband, and i try my best to be a good wife, and i have extreme convictions about my career....and i'm a little bit of a geek- just don't tell anyone.

does that make any sense?Are you trying to seduce me mrs robinson?

[Magneto_X]

For some reason the mention of shelves made me think of a bad girl librarian wearing a button-up sweater, lacy underoos, horn-rimmed glasses, and high heels; her hair up in a bun thanks to a pair of calligraphy pens, stylus ends sticking out. She's leaning over a bookcase like a cheap car model, and in the bookcase are dog-eared copies of literary fiction paperbacks. The spines of these books--many of which revealing the cracks of late-night wear and countless fold overs, hinting she treated some of her reading material like origami--reveal her tendency toward contemporary literacy fiction, a majority of the titles candidates for or the lauded entries on the New York Times year-end notable list.

...jeez, I need help.

You just described Yomiko Readman. :D

[Infra-Man]

Hmmm... if she were real, would she be into balding literature majors that look like the spawn of David Cross and Sean Lennon?

[Magneto_X]

Hmmm... if she were real, would she be into balding literature majors that look like the spawn of David Cross and Sean Lennon?

If she were real she'd have a line of guys several kilometers in length wanting to ask her out.

[NickThompson]

I'd hope so, it's one of Will Smith's best.

[Dark Galaxy]

Confidence is attractive.

At a certain age for boys/men, it seems only the bad boys have confidence. It's the one thing they have that many boys/men their age don't. They know what they want, they go get it.

In a few years, guys who are good, nice guys, develop more confidence and catch up and it evens out, especially since bad boys tend to burn out.

Also, bad boys give off the vibe that they know about sex and would be good in bed. This, believe it or not, girls do take into consideration.

So I'd advise young men who want to develop confidence to figure out what they want in life, work toward it, live on their own, etc. All that should develop independence and confidence and I think both genders tend to find that really attractive.

Hence, the joke about men/women turning up just when someone decided "god dammit, I'm done. I don't need a partner, I'm just going to do what I want."

Man, Corrina is such a smart cookie.

I think that confidence does have a lot to do with it, especially at younger ages.

I also think that women have a tendency to be "fixers." And overlook bad qualities because they think that if someone loves them enough, that person will change. It is a naive view of things, but SO many girls do that. It is a combination of a "love will conquer all" syndrome, with a touch of "mommy will fix that for you."

There are some girls I have known, that think if there is no drama in a relationship, that means there is no passion. They think if there is no fighting and treating each other like shit, then it is boring, and there must not be real love down deep inside. However, all the people I know that are like this, had parents with very volatile relationships.

I think another big contributor to the bad boy thing is self esteem. I know I went through this in high school. I dated a bad boy. Like an "I'm getting sent off to Juvie" bad boy. And for me, it really had a lot to do with self esteem. I have always had self esteem issues as long as I can remember. I never thought I was good enough, no matter what I did. And he was a cute, confident, popular guy, who happened to get into trouble. He had a lot of girls who liked him, and out of all of them, he picked me. So, it was a confidence booster. Everyone knew who he was, knew we were a couple, and I felt special. Even when things started going crappy, there were still enough social and emotional perks, to stay in the relationship.

Once I realized I needed to date someone for myself, and not for what other people thought of him and/or me, I found my husband. And he isn't a bad boy, just an smart ass. And that, I can handle.:D

[NickThompson]

Confidence is attractive.
<=== Most unattractive man on the board! Woo!



:)

[Infra-Man]

If she were real she'd have a line of guys several kilometers in length wanting to ask her out.

Hmmm... Darn, looks like I need a sock full of quarters to try to get to the front of that line.

[stealthwise]

The confidence theory is a great one, but I think that a lot of this whole idea falls back to a false dichotomy: A good boy vs a bad boy.

Human beings are obviously a lot more complex than that, but people like to have their own perceptions of things, and assume that they can categorize people from first impressions, surface observations, and superficial conversations.

I think that the "good guys" end up winning out later in life because women (and men) learn that you have to go deeper than how someone is immediately or popularly perceived. That's the reason that high school ends, so that you can determine your own set of values and beliefs without the intense scrutiny and pressure of your own peers.

[sunshinegirl]

Are you trying to seduce me mrs robinson?

haha! robinson? is that some quote that i dont' know? anyways, no, i'm just saying that there are chicks out there that are 'good' but have a wild 'bad' side, too. if not... i'll open a training camp.

[Michael P]

haha! robinson? is that some quote that i dont' know?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0061722/

[Sabrinaset]

I know a few women who seem to like going out with bad guys so that they can change them ... but that never works.

I usedta date all sorta bad people because I didn't think I was worth dating anyone good. In fact, there were times that the worse I was treated, the more it validated my feelings about what kind of person I was. Thankfully, that changed!

[sunshinegirl]

I know a few women who seem to like going out with bad guys so that they can change them ... but that never works.

I usedta date all sorta bad people because I didn't think I was worth dating anyone good. In fact, there were times that the worse I was treated, the more it validated my feelings about what kind of person I was. Thankfully, that changed!

right on, sista! i know alot of women with alot of stories (a few of my own, too).... luckily, though, i never had any delusion that i could change anyone. also, i'm extremely thankful that i married someone that i don't WANT to change. well, maybe if i could get him to stay awake past 9:30. old fart.

[mgs]

I personally find bad girls more attractive usually than good girls cause they have more fire and passion
although it usually bites me in the ass at the end when i get my heartbroken (sigh)

but like, most of you guys and gals have been saying. it's not particularly the 'badness' that is attractive, it's the attitude of wanting what life is willing to give, not having the attitude of sitting on your ass and just being complacent with a crappy job (if you don't have to) and whatnot. that's what I've observed over the years. and most guys with a 'fuck you' type attitude usually fit the bill of someone not wanting to just lay down and die.

[Tyr]

Well I'm no expert on romance, but I can be long winded enough to fake it. So if I may, I'd like to come up with several scenarios why men or women would go out with the bad boy/bad girl.

"I'm not good enough for good" Like Dave mentioned, some people just don't see themselves good enough for there own standards. So they'll settle for whatever insta-happy thing comes there way out of fear of getting nothing. Ie Women wan't Superman but they settle for Lex Luthor, because they see themselves as Mercy Graves rather then Lois Lane. Ultimately setting themselves up for an abusive relationship. Men do the same thing.

"I can save him/her" A classic scenario with two variations, the first being the "I can make him/her better" that Sabrina just described. The belief you can improve someone. The problem is they more you repair or modify something the more likely it is to break down. A common story with many women but it happens with men to.

The second variation is the "Shining Armor" scenario, you see someone who is suffering and we want to help them. The said victim is in a abusive or unhappy relationship, or in an otherwise bad situation. So enter you, the hero, to whisk them away from all their troubles. While this ideal is noble one, the all to common reality is that your trying to rescue someone who is drowning in there own problems. And just like any drowning victim they grab on to the first thing that offers them salvation. Which means more often they'll end up dragging you down with them into there hell. For guys this scenario is very common, it's happen to a couple of my chums. But its not uncommon to find women failing into this trap as well.

"Desperation" Lets say the girl or guy finds themselves in a bad or unhappy situation, and along comes someone that will offer them salvation. They take it only to find the knight in shining armor is actually an animated rotting corpse. Yet they will cling to that situation out of misguided sense of loyalty, or because they believe they have no where else to go. Ie Mercy Graves and Lex Luthor.

"Vicious Circle" person has a shitty childhood, shitty outlook on live, moves on to have a shitty life, has kids, circle repeats, tragic and all too common.

Also I found these articles on Codependence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codependence) and Dependent personality disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dependent_Personality_Disorder) at wikipedia, we here a lot of tales about women falling under these categories, but its not uncommon for men to fall under them as well.

[beetlebum]

From two of my earlier posts:

It's a phase. Bad boys are hot. But as you get older, you realise you don't want a guy like that. Especially the really pathetic ones that hang onto their glory days. I think it is a combination of a woman's nurturing nature, (or in my case, the messianic complex) and a desire to live vicariously through these individuals we are so attracted to them.They present a small break in conformity. Now I just look at the bad boys I liked in high school and just laugh. I can't believe I thought smoking cigarettes was bad ass.

A Bad Boy exudes untamed masculinity, independence and confidence," says Michael Fitzgerald, author and relationship correspondent for AskMen.com, "To women, these traits especially confidence are an aphrodisiac.The bad-boy attraction that some women feel may also stem from a desire to taste a more risky side of life one they themselves don't want to pursue, just experience.

It could also be because a woman has a messianic complex like me (see what happens when you listen to too much U2? You begin to inherit Bono's personality traits) Maybe she has a real desire to save them. Either that, or it could be a Spike/Buffy thing. Maybe she feels she is not worthy of a good guy and this is some sort of penance. And women, as much as I hate to admit it, do go after men who are reminiscent of their fathers. Either way, the fact that some women keep falling into a reciprocal cycle of bad men is awful.

[Cam63]

Bad boys = abusive shit.

It's that simple sometimes, ladies.

[Gail Simone]

Ick. I find bullies of all stripes to be unappealing on every level.

I like nice guys, and I found one, and we've been together forever and will stay that way.

:)

Gail

[Shisho]

The guys who fill the "bad boy" stereotype are generally full of themselves and obnoxious. They also tend to be posers, and that's really irritating.

I may be weird, but I always fall hard for the good guys. And it is possible to be a good guy and still have the confidence women find attractive, without being full of yourself. It's why I'm so smitten with my honey. :o

[Johnny_Luck]

I love the whole mentally of it all.

Girl sleeps with guy who has girlfriend, cheating guy and girlfriend break up, girl comes back into picture and becomes new girlfriend of boy, 6 months later boyfriend cheats again and according to girl1/girlfriend2 its all men suck and are cheating pigs.

Little hint there girl you made a stupid decision. he was cheating on his girlfriend with you. Use just a little friggin common sense and don't bash the whole gender because can't or forgot how to.

9 times out of ten the girls and guys who claim the other gender suck because of things like cheating or stuff that comes with bad boys/bad girls set them selves up for the downfall to begin with.

[Buzz Dixon]

The best explanation I've ever heard is that many women prefer decisive men over indecisive men and jerks are decisive while nice guys come across too often as wishy-washy.

[adam_warlock_2099]

Good Girls:

Help raise your children, cook, be there for you when your down, telling you to stop drinking before you get to shitfaced, love you when you don't love yourself, understand your crush on fictional comic book gals, put up with your boxes and boxes of comics, be kind to your parents, do laundry, change poopy diapers, pretend to understand your love of Japanese film, tell you your a good father, whether you believe it or not, tie you to the bed posts, smile as you oogle Inara, get your back when people say ALiens was better than Alien, go get you more beer when you can't yourself, and more than anything, she mean't that she would stay with me to death.

Bad Girls:

Sex.

I enjoy my choice everyday.

[Ed Cunard]

The best explanation I've ever heard is that many women prefer decisive men over indecisive men and jerks are decisive while nice guys come across too often as wishy-washy.


Something I've noticed, too: "nice guy" entitlement.

Now, I'm not talking smack on genuine nice guys, but the "nice guys" that don't have enough skills at self-reflection to accept that there's more to the dating/mating process than just whether or not a person is nice. It often, in my experience, leads to bitterness and a sense of "I deserve the affection of this particular girl, dammit." Someone might reject another person for any number of reasons--no matter how nice anyone is, they don't necessarily "deserve" the affections of the person for whom they pine.

[Dreadstar]

The best part of the "bad boy" fixation is the inevitable crash-and-burn sequence.

[hichaec]

Something I've noticed, too: "nice guy" entitlement.

Now, I'm not talking smack on genuine nice guys, but the "nice guys" that don't have enough skills at self-reflection to accept that there's more to the dating/mating process than just whether or not a person is nice. It often, in my experience, leads to bitterness and a sense of "I deserve the affection of this particular girl, dammit." Someone might reject another person for any number of reasons--no matter how nice anyone is, they don't necessarily "deserve" the affections of the person for whom they pine.

I've definitely encountered this a couple of times, but I didn't know exactly how to put it into words. There are a lot of guys out there who whine about how stupid girls are for not getting that they're "nice guys" - which, you know, isn't really a nice (or attractive) thing to do - and act as though a given girl ought to be obligated to return their affections because they're so "nice."

Here's a hint: if you're making fun of (or otherwise hurtfully blaming) a girl who is in an abusive relationship, whether she got herself into that mess or not, you are probably not a nice guy.

Which is not to say that genuinely good guys don't have a real reason to be upset about a lack of dates, or understanding and even angry when someone they care about is in a bad relationship.

Still, I tend to avoid dating guys who call themselves "nice guys" or complain about how "nice guys finish last" in seriousness or any of that.

[Ed Cunard]

Which is not to say that genuinely good guys don't have a real reason to be upset about a lack of dates...

But do they? I just don't understand the concept that "I deserve to date this person/a person." I mean, coupling? It's not an inalienable right.

I'm in a bit of a dry spell myself, but I'm not about to say that I "deserve" X, Y, and Z, or even the 23 preceding letters of the alphabet. I get the being upset-as-in-sad-or-depressed thing, but not the upset-as-in-angry-and-entitled-to-better thing.

[hichaec]

But do they? I just don't understand the concept that "I deserve to date this person/a person." I mean, coupling? It's not an inalienable right.

I'm in a bit of a dry spell myself, but I'm not about to say that I "deserve" X, Y, and Z, or even the 23 preceding letters of the alphabet. I get the being upset-as-in-sad-or-depressed thing, but not the upset-as-in-angry-and-entitled-to-better thing.

No, I don't think it's okay for guys to feel entitled to dates (or sex, etc.), but as you said...I understand why a person would be upset (as in sad or generally feeling unhappy) about not having a significant other, especially if they've been shot down recently. It's not a fun feeling. ;)

It's one thing to say that it sucks to be lonely, and another thing to say that it's all that girl's fault I'm lonely, can't she see how wonderful I am, why is she still with that jerk, etc.

I don't have a problem with anyone (nice guys, "nice" guys, and all shades of men and women between) feeling the first way. I think there's nothing wrong with even genuinely nice guys complaining about being lonely, so long as it's not framed in the context of "this is all her fault (or the fault of women in general) for not loving me back, like I deserve." But once you start complaining like that and pointing fingers, or worse, start making hurtful jokes or accusations about a woman (or, again, all women), then you are (in my opinion) way beyond the bounds of nice-guy-land.

[Paul McEnery]

But do they? I just don't understand the concept that "I deserve to date this person/a person." I mean, coupling? It's not an inalienable right.

I'm in a bit of a dry spell myself, but I'm not about to say that I "deserve" X, Y, and Z, or even the 23 preceding letters of the alphabet. I get the being upset-as-in-sad-or-depressed thing, but not the upset-as-in-angry-and-entitled-to-better thing.

It's pretty straightforward, isn't it.

If you were entitled to a shag, you'd be having a shag right now.

[Paul McEnery]

No, I don't think it's okay for guys to feel entitled to dates (or sex, etc.), but as you said...I understand why a person would be upset (as in sad or generally feeling unhappy) about not having a significant other, especially if they've been shot down recently. It's not a fun feeling. ;)

It's one thing to say that it sucks to be lonely, and another thing to say that it's all that girl's fault I'm lonely, can't she see how wonderful I am, why is she still with that jerk, etc.

I don't have a problem with anyone (nice guys, "nice" guys, and all shades of men and women between) feeling the first way. I think there's nothing wrong with even genuinely nice guys complaining about being lonely, so long as it's not framed in the context of "this is all her fault (or the fault of women in general) for not loving me back, like I deserve." But once you start complaining like that and pointing fingers, or worse, start making hurtful jokes or accusations about a woman (or, again, all women), then you are (in my opinion) way beyond the bounds of nice-guy-land.

Indeed.

Most "nice guys" are hateful dweebs.

[Tad Sivana]

I just can't believe that Cam and the other Down Unders didn't pick up on rootbeer from earlier in the thread.
Root + Beer.
This sounds like Cam's dream date.

[Buzz Dixon]

Something I've noticed, too: "nice guy" entitlement.

Now, I'm not talking smack on genuine nice guys, but the "nice guys" that don't have enough skills at self-reflection to accept that there's more to the dating/mating process than just whether or not a person is nice. It often, in my experience, leads to bitterness and a sense of "I deserve the affection of this particular girl, dammit." Someone might reject another person for any number of reasons--no matter how nice anyone is, they don't necessarily "deserve" the affections of the person for whom they pine.Yeah, that, too.

[PatrickG]

It's pretty straightforward, isn't it.

If you were entitled to a shag, you'd be having a shag right now.

I dunno...

It seems to me that there is an "ought to be" that is different than "what is". Then again, I have very little tolerance for pragmatism.

I think the real issue is:

A) Just because you feel a certain way doesn't mean she should.

B) You got to DO SOMETHING to get what you want in life. (I know a lot of guys who either won't approach a girl or who are always pining over girls who will literally date any novel, interesting guy -- and these guys won't make the effort to be interesting or try novel things.)

C) In the broader sense, I DO think everybody deserves love. Maybe not who you want it from, but still... The problem here is, deserving doesn't equal getting. Undeserving doesn't equal not getting. Life sucks. It's a proven fact. Accept it. Love it, leave it or try to change it.

D) For God's sake... Everybody needs to accept being single, even if it kills them. Needing a relationship is unhealthy and it will lead to problematic relationships. I worry like hell about my friends who can't stay unattached for five minutes without being miserable.

Now, what sucks in my experience is that there are haves and have-nots.

I know some people who have never been unattached since puberty or at least since age 18. I think that's an awful preparation for life and it makes me want to gag. These people also seem prone to self-destructive or unwise choices if they're forced to be alone for any real length of time and that sucks.

Meanwhile, there are people who don't date, who have never dated and who may never date. I'm more in this boat. I may forget to call after a date for several weeks. I have no clue how to approach an attractive girl. I have no social programming for these things. And I know plenty of guys who are more extreme than I am who can't remember the names of girls they see every day. I know guys who have given up on dating in favor of science or porn or cat-people porn.

Honestly, I think poor old Mike with his cat-people bondage porn and setting his own hair on fire is better off than the people who feel incomplete without another half, as if life is a three legged race.

Both extremes suck. I've seen a bit of both sides without ever becoming fully co-dependent or getting into anime porn. I'm not too concerned if I ever date again or if I ever find someone and, perhaps being somewhat biased, think everybody could use an extra dose of ambivalence about sex.

It is what it is. Enjoy it if you get it. Learn to go a lifetime without it. Don't devote time or energy caring too much either way.

You have friends. You have family. You can buy a goldfish if you need something around the house to talk to. You have two hands and any number of apparatuses available at specialty stores.

So... Really... Where's the need? What's the rush? If love happens, great. But embrace life without it.

[Corrina]

So... Really... Where's the need? What's the rush? If love happens, great. But embrace life without it.

There is a great deal of wisdom to what you say, especially about accepting you don't *need* a relationship to be a whole person.

But one should also be careful not to wall oneself away from the possiblity of connecting with someone as well.

[Gilda Dent]

but like, most of you guys and gals have been saying. it's not particularly the 'badness' that is attractive, it's the attitude of wanting what life is willing to give, not having the attitude of sitting on your ass and just being complacent with a crappy job (if you don't have to) and whatnot. that's what I've observed over the years. and most guys with a 'fuck you' type attitude usually fit the bill of someone not wanting to just lay down and die.

But aren't there confident, assertive men who aren't aggressive immature jerks? If it's the confidence and assertiveness that are the real attraction, why not go for a guy who has those qualities without all the other macho stuff to go with it?

I've seen my mom pass up opportunity after opportunity to be with a decent guy who would treat her with respect, guys who obviously liked her quite a bit, because they were "boring".

When I was dating guys, I always liked the ones who were courteous, would take one "no" as sufficient reason to leave me alone, who didn't try to act tough, or like a big shot, or play me with some cheesy pickup line, or keep asking after the first "no".

I liked the nice guys, those that didn't suddenly turn in to jerks on the second or third date, or turn out to be gay.

[Sally Sensational]

An ex of mine - the brilliant bum (my idea of a bad boy) - once said one of the wisest things about a relationship I've ever heard:

You can't share your life with someone if you don't have a life to share.

[Gilda Dent]

I don't know.

I do know that I'm a better person with Emily than I was without her, that I'm more with her than I would have been without her. Most of the good things in my life have come, not necessarily from her, but as a result of our being together.

[stealthwise]

I don't know.

I do know that I'm a better person with Emily than I was without her, that I'm more with her than I would have been without her. Most of the good things in my life have come, not necessarily from her, but as a result of our being together.

Same here. I had NO life whatsoever prior to being with my wife, and now things are great.

[mgs]

But aren't there confident, assertive men who aren't aggressive immature jerks? If it's the confidence and assertiveness that are the real attraction, why not go for a guy who has those qualities without all the other macho stuff to go with it?

</p>
oh definitely. But early on, they are far and few between. Later on, the confident 'good' ones tend to get snatched up fairly quickly, leaving the same qualities in guys who tend to be more adventerous, but not as wholesome. I think it comes down to a matter of searching for that 'perfect' person v. actually finding that 'perfect' person.

[Cam63]

The best part of the "bad boy" fixation is the inevitable crash-and-burn sequence.

I've seen that time and time again, unfortunately.

[Cam63]

I just can't believe that Cam and the other Down Unders didn't pick up on rootbeer from earlier in the thread.
Root + Beer.
This sounds like Cam's dream date.

I did catch it.

...and I don't have sexual relationships with beer, you nullanulla.

[Tyr]

Well now that I think about this topic further...

I have a friend who is kind of a "bad boy" in that he's all macho and stuff. I don't remember him ever finding a date while he was out here.

I have two sisters and I can't recal them ever dating bad boys. One of my sisters did date a guy who owned a motorcycle, but he wasn't really a bad boy, more of a dumbass if you ask me.

So do women really like a bad boy? Well...not all of them.

[pariah-1972]

Unfortunately i met this one loser who wanted to crash at my place because he was wasted
even tho i never met him.
and unfortunately he had a very very hot stripper girlfriend that came over and got him.
i was so pissed off that she would date a complete schmuch like him.